Effect of rat./irrat. vs. Ni-Se/Ne-Si preference on behavior
Okay, another one of *these* threads; but I think this may be an interesting new way at looking at an old issue. Anyhow, just curious what sort of insights you may have on these........
It seems to me that yet another way of viewing of the various divergences in how people understand Socionics is to consider how these two things affect behavior:
* rationality vs. irrationality
* being in an Ni-Se vs. Ne-Si quadra
EFFECTS OF IRRATIONALITY AND RATIONALITY
In theory, having a dominant rational functions causes people to be more straightforward about decisions and an actions. Rational functions appear to be less changeable than irrational ones. Therefore, a person with a dominant rational function might be more inclined to follow a plan and to do what was planned. Activities might be more straightforward ("I decided to do x, and so x is what I did.")
In theory, having a dominant perceiving function causes people to be more changeable in their activities, as their differing perceptions lead them to go in various directions. For this reason, when afforded the opportunity, irrational types might be expected to prefer less planning, or less detailed planning, or at least to be more inclined to diverge from their plans, as their need to engage their perceptions causes them to want to continue with an activity longer than was planned, or to engage in activities that weren't planned in advance (or even forseen). In particular, irrational types may be expected to sometimes "lose themselves" in their activities; indeed, the common notion of "losing oneself" in something may be a perfect description for engaging the perceiving functions; and, according to a lot that has been said in Socionics, it would seem this would pertain to some extent to any perceiving function...Ne, Ni, Si, and Se.
EFFECTS OF Ni-Se vs. Ne-Si ORIENTATION
On the other hand, similar behaviors may be explained by some as emanating from whether a person is in a quadra that values Ni and Se, or Ne and Si.
Some Socionists say that Ni has to do with perception of time, understanding how long things will take, and taking a long-term view. Similarly, Socionists often associate Se not only with being tuned into what's going on around them (as Jung describes), but also with having a high action orientation, and possibly aggressive tendencies.
Conversely, Si is sometimes described in terms of taking more of a short-term view (putting comfort first, choosing to the enjoy the moment now), and Ne is often described as leading toward constantly changing interests.
It seems plausible from these views of the functions that an Ni/Se orientation would lead to the following:
*More action orientation; a "get things done" tendency (because of valuing Se)
*More self-restraint; ability to ignore short-term comfort for the sake of long-term gain (delayed gratification) (because of valuing Ni)
*More straightforward use of time; less rushing; less disorganization caused by not being aware of time (because of valuing Ni)
Similarly, Ne/Si orientation, according to these views, might be associated with:
*A great tendency to suddenly change interest (because of valuing Ne)
*Harder time with delayed gratification; more tendency to do whatever feels good at the moment (because of valuing Si)
*Less aggressive tackling of goals; more laid-back demeanor (because of devaluing Se)
*More disorganization resulting from less awareness of time; a great tendency to lose oneself in cherished activities and not recognizing the time (because of devaluing Ni)
CONFICT AND PROBLEMS
Clearly, the descriptions of tendencies of Ni/Se and Ne/Si quadra orientations seem quite similar to the descriptions of rational and irrational type tendencies, respectively...at least similar enough that in real-life situations these behaviors may be easily confused.
Of course, the biggest problem with these descriptions is that not everone agrees that Ni has anything to do with time perception; as has been addressed on this forum, many see Ni as a dominant function as having very little do to with time perception, while it may be directed toward time perception and long-term planning when used by Ej types.
Indeed, some may question whether the descriptions of Se often found in Socionics are even correct, given that they diverge significantly from Jung's descriptions.
In any case, many of the seemingly contradictory things that are said in Socionics appear to come from the inherent tension between these interpretations.
Re: Effect of rat./irrat. vs. Ni-Se/Ne-Si preference on beha
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan
EFFECTS OF IRRATIONALITY AND RATIONALITY
In theory, having a dominant rational functions causes people to be more straightforward about decisions and an actions. Rational functions appear to be less changeable than irrational ones. Therefore, a person with a dominant rational function might be more inclined to follow a plan and to do what was planned. Activities might be more straightforward ("I decided to do x, and so x is what I did.")
In theory, having a dominant perceiving function causes people to be more changeable in their activities, as their differing perceptions lead them to go in various directions. For this reason, when afforded the opportunity, irrational types might be expected to prefer less planning, or less detailed planning, or at least to be more inclined to diverge from their plans, as their need to engage their perceptions causes them to want to continue with an activity longer than was planned, or to engage in activities that weren't planned in advance (or even forseen). In particular, irrational types may be expected to sometimes "lose themselves" in their activities; indeed, the common notion of "losing oneself" in something may be a perfect description for engaging the perceiving functions; and, according to a lot that has been said in Socionics, it would seem this would pertain to some extent to any perceiving function...Ne, Ni, Si, and Se.
this is MBTI clutter. to be honest, i don't see these sorts of viewpoints as being particularly prevalent or a significant source of confusion in socionics.
Re: Effect of rat./irrat. vs. Ni-Se/Ne-Si preference on beha
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan
In theory, having a dominant rational functions causes people to be more straightforward about decisions and an actions. Rational functions appear to be less changeable than irrational ones. Therefore, a person with a dominant rational function might be more inclined to follow a plan and to do what was planned. Activities might be more straightforward ("I decided to do x, and so x is what I did.")
i think this is overly simplistic. in my opinion p types just "oscillate" more than j types. it seems like p types have less personality density? i think of judgers as a swarm of vectors that is moving against itself but the "swarm" or "cloud" has a discrete form of motion, it has a direction whereas p types sort of take 2 steps forward and one step back? (then one to the left and they walk downstairs and grab a cup of coffee and where was i? oh right, i came downstairs for a reason. wtf?! guh *walks upstairs* damn it no sugar!)
Re: Effect of rat./irrat. vs. Ni-Se/Ne-Si preference on beha
Quote:
Originally Posted by niffweed17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan
EFFECTS OF IRRATIONALITY AND RATIONALITY
In theory, having a dominant rational functions causes people to be more straightforward about decisions and an actions. Rational functions appear to be less changeable than irrational ones. Therefore, a person with a dominant rational function might be more inclined to follow a plan and to do what was planned. Activities might be more straightforward ("I decided to do x, and so x is what I did.")
In theory, having a dominant perceiving function causes people to be more changeable in their activities, as their differing perceptions lead them to go in various directions. For this reason, when afforded the opportunity, irrational types might be expected to prefer less planning, or less detailed planning, or at least to be more inclined to diverge from their plans, as their need to engage their perceptions causes them to want to continue with an activity longer than was planned, or to engage in activities that weren't planned in advance (or even forseen). In particular, irrational types may be expected to sometimes "lose themselves" in their activities; indeed, the common notion of "losing oneself" in something may be a perfect description for engaging the perceiving functions; and, according to a lot that has been said in Socionics, it would seem this would pertain to some extent to any perceiving function...Ne, Ni, Si, and Se.
this is MBTI clutter. to be honest, i don't see these sorts of viewpoints as being particularly prevalent or a significant source of confusion in socionics.
No, I'm relying totally on descriptions of rational/irrational in Socionics writings. As I'm sure you know, MBTI would relate the behaviors associated here with irrationality with having an extraverted irrational function. I've documented descriptions of rationality and irrationality in Socionics in other posts, but here's a recap:
http://www.socionics.com/main/types.htm
http://www.socionics.us/theory/rat_irr.shtml
http://socioniko.net/en/index.html (click on Introduction into Socionics, and go to Part2)
Interestingly, Sergei Ganin has written a short article where his interpretation of rationality/irrationality as relating rationality to being habitually punctual, organized, etc., is especially clear: http://www.socionics.com/advan/phenomenon.html
So anyhow, this thread isn't about Socionics&MBTI. I'm talking purely about stuff written in Socionics.
As to whether these differing interpretations are related to the various conflicts of viewpoints that exist, well I guess it's hard to point it out if you don't "see" it; I'd say, just look at the vast scope of the posts on this forum. :) I guess it's your word against mine there; to document it all probably wouldn't be useful at this point.
Re: Effect of rat./irrat. vs. Ni-Se/Ne-Si preference on beha
Quote:
Originally Posted by science as magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan
In theory, having a dominant rational functions causes people to be more straightforward about decisions and an actions. Rational functions appear to be less changeable than irrational ones. Therefore, a person with a dominant rational function might be more inclined to follow a plan and to do what was planned. Activities might be more straightforward ("I decided to do x, and so x is what I did.")
i think this is overly simplistic. in my opinion p types just "oscillate" more than j types. it seems like p types have less personality density?
Not sure; none of the Socionics descriptions of rationality/irrationality mention "personality density." How would you define it?
Quote:
whereas p types sort of take 2 steps forward and one step back? (then one to the left and they walk downstairs and grab a cup of coffee and where was i? oh right, i came downstairs for a reason. wtf?! guh *walks upstairs* damn it no sugar!)
Sounds pretty dysfunctional. :) Actually, that's exactly how I feel sometimes, but I think irrational types can be focused; and even when they are, they still exhibit different behaviors than judging types.
Anyhow, I didn't mean for this thread to focus on the words I use to paraphrase Socionics descriptions of rat/irrat; my point is how those concepts are often described in ways that (in some interpretations) seem to conflict with descriptions of quadra values in regard to N and S.
Re: Effect of rat./irrat. vs. Ni-Se/Ne-Si preference on beha
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan
Not sure; none of the Socionics descriptions of rationality/irrationality mention "personality density." How would you define it?
they do not. i just mean that p types seem less "tied" to a specific identity than their j counterparts. they have weaker mind over body associations
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan
Sounds pretty dysfunctional. :) Actually, that's exactly how I feel sometimes, but I think irrational types can be focused; and even when they are, they still exhibit different behaviors than judging types.
it was an exaggeration so don't take it too seriously. i think your description of j types was similarly exaggerated
Re: Effect of rat./irrat. vs. Ni-Se/Ne-Si preference on beha
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan
Quote:
Originally Posted by niffweed17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan
EFFECTS OF IRRATIONALITY AND RATIONALITY
In theory, having a dominant rational functions causes people to be more straightforward about decisions and an actions. Rational functions appear to be less changeable than irrational ones. Therefore, a person with a dominant rational function might be more inclined to follow a plan and to do what was planned. Activities might be more straightforward ("I decided to do x, and so x is what I did.")
In theory, having a dominant perceiving function causes people to be more changeable in their activities, as their differing perceptions lead them to go in various directions. For this reason, when afforded the opportunity, irrational types might be expected to prefer less planning, or less detailed planning, or at least to be more inclined to diverge from their plans, as their need to engage their perceptions causes them to want to continue with an activity longer than was planned, or to engage in activities that weren't planned in advance (or even forseen). In particular, irrational types may be expected to sometimes "lose themselves" in their activities; indeed, the common notion of "losing oneself" in something may be a perfect description for engaging the perceiving functions; and, according to a lot that has been said in Socionics, it would seem this would pertain to some extent to any perceiving function...Ne, Ni, Si, and Se.
this is MBTI clutter. to be honest, i don't see these sorts of viewpoints as being particularly prevalent or a significant source of confusion in socionics.
No, I'm relying totally on descriptions of rational/irrational in Socionics writings. As I'm sure you know, MBTI would relate the behaviors associated here with irrationality with having an extraverted irrational function. I've documented descriptions of rationality and irrationality in Socionics in other posts, but here's a recap:
http://www.socionics.com/main/types.htm
http://www.socionics.us/theory/rat_irr.shtml
http://socioniko.net/en/index.html (click on Introduction into Socionics, and go to Part2)
Interestingly, Sergei Ganin has written a short article where his interpretation of rationality/irrationality as relating rationality to being habitually punctual, organized, etc., is especially clear:
http://www.socionics.com/advan/phenomenon.html
So anyhow, this thread isn't about Socionics&MBTI. I'm talking purely about stuff written in Socionics.
As to whether these differing interpretations are related to the various conflicts of viewpoints that exist, well I guess it's hard to point it out if you don't "see" it; I'd say, just look at the vast scope of the posts on this forum. :) I guess it's your word against mine there; to document it all probably wouldn't be useful at this point.
sorry... i can't buy this.
first of all, i throw out all material written by sergei ganin as written by an organism with the same knowledge of socionics as that of a meatball, and therefore unreliable.
rather, rick's site fails to uphold this idea, instead holding that "rationals act according to their expectation of a situation" (from which often results a plan, but not always), while "irrationals act on impulse."
basically, this idea might have some validity in terms of correlation to socionic type, but is not a result of socionic type since the presence of planning is at all universal.
Re: Effect of rat./irrat. vs. Ni-Se/Ne-Si preference on beha
Quote:
Originally Posted by science as magic
they do not. i just mean that p types seem less "tied" to a specific identity than their j counterparts.
That seems reasonable to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by science as magic
they have weaker mind over body associations
Not sure about that part. What you mean by "mind over body associations"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by science as magic
it was an exaggeration so don't take it too seriously. i think your description of j types was similarly exaggerated
Yeah, it's hard to describe the stuff without exaggerating a little. That's the trouble with using language to describe these things.
Re: Effect of rat./irrat. vs. Ni-Se/Ne-Si preference on beha
Quote:
Originally Posted by niffweed17
first of all, i throw out all material written by sergei ganin as written by an organism with the same knowledge of socionics as that of a meatball, and therefore unreliable.
I'm not a fan either, but I thought it was interesting he described irrational types so bluntly in that article (after previously having been a little ambiguous on his opinion). Anyhow, I'd still give him more credit than a meatball. :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by niffweed17
rather, rick's site fails to uphold this idea, instead holding that "rationals act according to their expectation of a situation" (from which often results a plan, but not always), while "irrationals act on impulse."
Great point. I thought that was pretty close to my wording, but probably a lot better. I said irrationals are "at least to be more inclined to diverge from their plans." Yes, plans are universal; one needs them to hold meetings, get business done, etc. My wording wasn't perfect, (especially on the side of the rational type; the irrational type wording was maybe a little more nuanced), but the point is still the same.
Anyhow, let's throw out my wording and use Rick's.
If we settle on Rick's wording, it still seems to me that in some conceptions of Socionics, views of Gamma/Beta types seem to be similar to the idea of acting according to one's expectation of a situation (because some see Ni as relating to having a long-term view of time (similar to an expectation that one then might act according to), whereas some views of Alpha/Delta types seem to be similar to the idea of acting on impulse (because some see Ne as being an impulsive force even amoung INj types, and because some see Si as related to comfort-seeking, which would be impulsive as contrasted to the long-term perspective of Ni).
I'm not saying these views are correct; I'm just pointing them out.
Re: Effect of rat./irrat. vs. Ni-Se/Ne-Si preference on beha
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan
If we settle on Rick's wording, it still seems to me that in some conceptions of Socionics, views of Gamma/Beta types seem to be similar to the idea of acting according to one's expectation of a situation (because some see Ni as relating to having a long-term view of time (similar to an expectation that one then might act according to), whereas some views of Alpha/Delta types seem to be similar to the idea of acting on impulse (because some see Ne as being an impulsive force even amoung INj types, and because some see Si as related to comfort-seeking, which would be impulsive as contrasted to the long-term perspective of Ni).
I'm not saying these views are correct; I'm just pointing them out.
IMO, yet another misconception of Ni.
Re: Effect of rat./irrat. vs. Ni-Se/Ne-Si preference on beha
this
Quote:
Originally Posted by science as magic
i just mean that p types seem less "tied" to a specific identity than their j counterparts.
is an example of this
Quote:
Originally Posted by science as magic
they have weaker mind over body associations
to me
p types generally seem less able to "direct their consciousness"
i would like to offer up the suggestion that j-ness is similar to introversion in that both seem to elaborate on a particular. when i said that js have greater "personality density" i was referring to their ability to form and dismantle strong associations by means of repetition
Re: Effect of rat./irrat. vs. Ni-Se/Ne-Si preference on beha
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan
Interestingly, Sergei Ganin has written a short article where his interpretation of rationality/irrationality as relating rationality to being habitually punctual, organized, etc., is especially clear:
http://www.socionics.com/advan/phenomenon.html
wow. i hadn't even looked at this one going through this thread the first time around.
anybody who believes a word of this article needs to seriously reevaluate everything they think they know about socionics.
Re: Effect of rat./irrat. vs. Ni-Se/Ne-Si preference on beha
Quote:
Originally Posted by niffweed17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan
Interestingly, Sergei Ganin has written a short article where his interpretation of rationality/irrationality as relating rationality to being habitually punctual, organized, etc., is especially clear:
http://www.socionics.com/advan/phenomenon.html
wow. i hadn't even looked at this one going through this thread the first time around.
anybody who believes a word of this article needs to seriously reevaluate everything they think they know about socionics.
why is that niffweed
Re: Effect of rat./irrat. vs. Ni-Se/Ne-Si preference on beha
Quote:
Originally Posted by niffweed17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan
Interestingly, Sergei Ganin has written a short article where his interpretation of rationality/irrationality as relating rationality to being habitually punctual, organized, etc., is especially clear:
http://www.socionics.com/advan/phenomenon.html
anybody who believes a word of this article needs to seriously reevaluate everything they think they know about socionics.
Then I seriously have to reevaluate everything I think that I know about Socionics. That's what we are here for anyway, so why don't you help me by arguing against Ganin's claims in that article? I believe that his main theses are true and that his "rule" is correct too. Everybody except me seems to think that most of the things Ganin says are bullshit, but nobody has ever offered any good arguments for that. Now it's time for a change. So argue, please.
Re: Effect of rat./irrat. vs. Ni-Se/Ne-Si preference on beha
Quote:
Originally Posted by niffweed17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan
Interestingly, Sergei Ganin has written a short article where his interpretation of rationality/irrationality as relating rationality to being habitually punctual, organized, etc., is especially clear:
http://www.socionics.com/advan/phenomenon.html
wow. i hadn't even looked at this one going through this thread the first time around.
anybody who believes a word of this article needs to seriously reevaluate everything they think they know about socionics.
I disagree, somewhat.
E/I is generally easier to discern with the first impression. Although p/j as a pure dichotomy should not be used in typing. That's ridiculous.
Re: Effect of rat./irrat. vs. Ni-Se/Ne-Si preference on beha
Quote:
Originally Posted by thehotelambush
Quote:
Originally Posted by niffweed17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan
Interestingly, Sergei Ganin has written a short article where his interpretation of rationality/irrationality as relating rationality to being habitually punctual, organized, etc., is especially clear:
http://www.socionics.com/advan/phenomenon.html
wow. i hadn't even looked at this one going through this thread the first time around.
anybody who believes a word of this article needs to seriously reevaluate everything they think they know about socionics.
I disagree, somewhat.
E/I
is generally easier to discern with the first impression. Although p/j as a pure dichotomy should not be used in typing. That's ridiculous.
not disagreeing with that part, but with the rest of the article.
Re: Effect of rat./irrat. vs. Ni-Se/Ne-Si preference on beha
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedrus
Then I seriously have to reevaluate everything I think that I know about Socionics. That's what we are here for anyway, so why don't you help me by arguing against Ganin's claims in that article? I believe that his main theses are true and that his "rule" is correct too. Everybody except me seems to think that most of the things Ganin says are bullshit, but nobody has ever offered any good arguments for that. Now it's time for a change. So argue, please.
i have a lot of work right now. i will work on forming a coherent argument tomorrow.
Re: Effect of rat./irrat. vs. Ni-Se/Ne-Si preference on beha
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedrus
Quote:
Originally Posted by niffweed17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan
Interestingly, Sergei Ganin has written a short article where his interpretation of rationality/irrationality as relating rationality to being habitually punctual, organized, etc., is especially clear:
http://www.socionics.com/advan/phenomenon.html
anybody who believes a word of this article needs to seriously reevaluate everything they think they know about socionics.
Then I seriously have to reevaluate everything I think that I know about Socionics.
Yes.
Re: Effect of rat./irrat. vs. Ni-Se/Ne-Si preference on beha
Quote:
Originally Posted by niffweed17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan
If we settle on Rick's wording, it still seems to me that in some conceptions of Socionics, views of Gamma/Beta types seem to be similar to the idea of acting according to one's expectation of a situation (because some see Ni as relating to having a long-term view of time (similar to an expectation that one then might act according to), whereas some views of Alpha/Delta types seem to be similar to the idea of acting on impulse (because some see Ne as being an impulsive force even amoung INj types, and because some see Si as related to comfort-seeking, which would be impulsive as contrasted to the long-term perspective of Ni).
I'm not saying these views are correct; I'm just pointing them out.
IMO, yet another misconception of Ni.
Jonathan, you insist on thinking that Ni is a rational function.
What you say here:
Quote:
(because some see Ni as relating to having a long-term view of time (similar to an expectation that one then might act according to),
Acting according to one's Ni perception of the longer-term, big-picture is as irrational, or rational, as acting according to one's Si perception of what's in front of you.
That is the key to your whole Ni-related confusion. You just take for granted that paying more attention to the longer term or big picture is more rational than paying attention to immediate physical sensations. No: they are both perceptions. In many situations, it would be more "rational" to focus on what's in front of you or what you are sensing right now.
Re: Effect of rat./irrat. vs. Ni-Se/Ne-Si preference on beha
Quote:
Originally Posted by Expat
Quote:
Originally Posted by niffweed17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan
If we settle on Rick's wording, it still seems to me that in some conceptions of Socionics, views of Gamma/Beta types seem to be similar to the idea of acting according to one's expectation of a situation (because some see Ni as relating to having a long-term view of time (similar to an expectation that one then might act according to), whereas some views of Alpha/Delta types seem to be similar to the idea of acting on impulse (because some see Ne as being an impulsive force even amoung INj types, and because some see Si as related to comfort-seeking, which would be impulsive as contrasted to the long-term perspective of Ni).
I'm not saying these views are correct; I'm just pointing them out.
IMO, yet another misconception of Ni.
Jonathan, you insist on thinking that Ni is a rational function.
What you say here:
Quote:
(because some see Ni as relating to having a long-term view of time (similar to an expectation that one then might act according to),
Acting according to one's Ni
perception of the longer-term, big-picture is as irrational, or rational, as acting according to one's Si perception of what's in front of you.
That is the key to your whole Ni-related confusion. You just take for granted that paying more attention to the longer term or big picture is more rational than paying attention to immediate physical sensations. No: they are both perceptions. In many situations, it would be more "rational" to focus on what's in front of you or what you are sensing right now.
Actually, that's not what I was saying; I was just saying that some posts and source material seem to describe the Ni/Se axis in a way that could be confused with rationality behaviors. I wasn't saying that's the view I agree with. :)