How can you tell the difference? What types of behaviors might one see that would differentiate these 2 types? Vocational differences? Relational differences?
Please comment....help with this is appreciated.
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How can you tell the difference? What types of behaviors might one see that would differentiate these 2 types? Vocational differences? Relational differences?
Please comment....help with this is appreciated.
ISFps are the second clear "Critic" type after INTps. They are narrator-negativist, just like INTps. So they are likely to often say stuff like, "this still has to be done" or "before you do that, you must to this" etc. In doing that, they will be very detail-focused.
By comparison, INFps are more likely to focus on what has already been done, on a longer-term view.
ISFps are more likely to be concerned about whether people around them are in an immediate good mood; they dislike getting into what they see as unnecessary arguments. INFps are more likely to be confrontational if their beliefs are challenged, or if they perceive someone as being emotionally hostile to them.
An ISFp is more likely to be seen as an "overgrown child"; an INFp, as an "overaged teenager".
An ISFp makes the impression of someone who basically wants to have a good time and wants others to have a good time; an INFp makes a more determined, decisive, goal-oriented impression.
When discussing ideas, ideologies, politics, etc, ISFps are more likely to be flexible, as if it wasn't worth it, to risk a fight due to that. INFps will be more likely to engage in a discussion on such matters, even passionately so.
An INFp can make the impression of being a bit of a "dreamer"; ISFps are nothing if not down-to-earth.
I think I've read that post before. :)
I'm not sure if IEIs make the primary impression of being goal-oriented and decisive. Are you sure about that characterization?
Also, "this still has to be done" for SEI sounds like some sort of task-master. I don't see that kind of aggressive telling-people-what-to-do-because-I-said-so behavior from either ILIs or IEIs. Sounds possibly LSI?
All of the observations are meant to focus on IEIs in relation to SEIs and vice-versa. A Resolute, Beta, Ni IP type makes more of an impression of decisive and goal-oriented than a Reasonable, Alpha, Si IP type.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan
Same as above, and this refers - as it was perfectly clear in my post - to the "Critic" narrator-negativist behavior, same as with ILIs, who aren't "agressive etc etc etc" either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan
Nevermind me, I'm in my critic mode, I guess. :)
Here are some other possible differences:
SEI is comfortable with practical details, IEI has a problem with practical details.
SEI is down to earth and enjoys the simple pleasures of life easily; IEI is more likely to talk about the meaning of things and may convey the sense of never being satisfied.
Where it gets difficult though is if you have an IEI whose career or situtaion in life forces him/her to focus more on practical things. In that case, it may be harder to distinguish the two.
I've also thought that sometimes EII artists may appear like SEI to some because of their value given to Si, combined with their F and introverted nature.
SEI complains more, laughs more, moodier, emanates (absorbs) more energy when happy (sad), more mood swings, less conformist, more likely to get drunk, not particularly fond of abstract nonsense, usually identifies with a group, generally rounder if female, mesomorph if male, persevering towards their goal, physically fit, anarchist/apolitical
IEI more social, stabler outward mood, gestures are more sweeping but look worse, reads bukowski, more friendly, tries to be friends with people that are well known/have lots of power/potential, some of them are fond of abstract nonsense, very into alt music, generally slimmer, hot if female, long haired if male (dunno male infps i think are though about as hot by many girls but i am not a good judge being straight), socialist/anarchist
Being an SLE, you may be a little biased towards IEI though (?). :)Quote:
Originally Posted by FDG
A lot of people say that SEIs are roundish. Is this really true? Most people I think are SEIs are pretty slim.
Not sure that IEIs are more social or friendly; I'd suspect that to Alphas it would appear the opposite.
Yeah, I tried not to, does SEI sound bad? I tried to make both balance out. I mean, "reads bukowski" should be considered a defect :lol: so is "likes people with a lot of power". I've seen INFp eyes shine at the sight of a credit card! Still, they're small downsides.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan
The girls I know 2 are roundish 1 is slim. Just my observation, really. The males are average.Quote:
A lot of people say that SEIs are roundish. Is this really true? Most people I think are SEIs are pretty slim.
Friendly maybe not, more social for sure. Again - your observations could be different but all the ISFps I know have a less casual acquaintances than the INFps. When I walk around with my ISFp friend yeah, he knows people, a normal amount. With the INFp he's all the time greeting some new hottie that i have never seen before, shit. Although, the INFp is somewhat more materialistic in this regard; when asked he says that he keeps the friendship "cuz you never know", whereas the ISFp is more into keeping only the friendship he cares about. Hope it's not biased.Quote:
Not sure that IEIs are more social or friendly; I'd suspect that to Alphas it would appear the opposite.
From my observations, SEIs are disproportionately represented among roundish people, which is not to say that all or even most SEIs are roundish. They are more likely to be so than IEIs, though, from what I have observed.
Two SEI girls I kno/ew very well are downright skinny; and my SEI father was on the slim side his whole life, even as an old man. So one must be careful.
right on. i have a better grasp of IEI than SEI. i can't clearly see or visualize my dual for some reason. the filatova descriptions are crystal clear, but they have not yet been completed for alpha types.
i think my sqeeze is IEI. this would mean an illusionary relationship/mirage relationship. a promising relationship, but one in which there would seem to be major differences in expectations and values. he would want a powerful, forceful person....at times i feel myself trying to be this, but i can't see this lasting. i have a lot of energy but not enough for 2 people to live off of, like an sle would have.
according to socionics, i would want a more relaxing type of person, more down to earth and uncomplicated than moralistic and spiritual. but i don't see this type of person nor do i know where to find them. i don't cross paths with them.
and yet i repeatedly find myself with people who show evidence of a strong spiritual foundation. and beta folks. again and again.
i am 42 years old and can't fuck around anymore. this is my life....
I think I know what you mean now. ISFps are sometimes so absorbed in their own sense of enjoyment that they may seem less social. INFps can really come alive in various settings and seem almost extraverted.Quote:
Originally Posted by FDG
However, INFps may also be more inclined to "shut off" when they feel they don't have anything in common with someone, or if they want to keep their distance for whatever reason. I've noticed this tendency to turn "on" or "off" around various people in INFps, but not so much in ISFps who seem to be more or less the same no matter whom they're around. I'm not much into the Reinin stuff, but maybe it could be an aristocracy vs. democracy thing?
Socionics is just a tool. If IEIs seem good to you, don't let Socionics ruin the pary. :) Illusionary is supposed to be pretty good anyhow. And you may have some Beta side to your personality that draws you to IEI.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaze8
However, where Socionics can help is:
* If you're drawn to a type over and over and it never works out, then you can get some insight as to why.
* If you never would have considered hanging out with someone and Socionics says it would be a good match, you can try it.
You worry too much. Hey, I was with my dual for six years and it didn't work out. :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaze8
I don't know that many IEIs, but the one I know best, and whose type I am certain of, is exactly like that. The difference in comparison with SEIs is striking, and of course it is consistent with the difference between Alpha and Beta.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan
Yes, that is definitely true, and it is fully consistent with body type theory. Every SEI I know in real life is roundish. IEIs in general are less roundish and have roughly the same body type as an ILI. Expat is of course right about the importance of being careful, and that there are exceptions to the overall statistic pattern, but if you think that someone skinny is an SEI you should check the arguments for that hypothesis at least one more time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan
The overall pattern at a very general level seems to be that N types are at least somewhat skinnier than S types. The most skinny types are of course LIIs and EIIs.
Body type theory?
yes. what i am trying to say is that i am repeatedly drawn to beta types and it doesn't work out. the most recent of which has been a divorce from my sle ex. we were together for 15 years and have 2 small children. it has been the most painful thing i've ever experienced because of the way he did it. i want to work on finding another relationship. this may take a considerable amount of time and in your 40's this process can get undermined by the simplest of logistical issues. so i don't want to waste my time on something that is doomed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan
before being married, i went out with an enfj; which was a pretty good relationship. also went out with an infp, which was not so good because he continually smoked a lot of weed and i just couldn't take the laziness. both of these relationships lasted about 3 years each, but have been over for about 15-20 years.
the current IEI used to smoke weed but stopped, so i can wait and see what happens i guess. but not that long, i don't think before i need to make up my mind - and before he makes up his mind. who knows, even though he doesn't know about socionics, the face validity of it is proving true...i am lookalike to sle, he may think i'm something i'm not. he is attracted to power and force. his ex is an istj.
but you are right in that an illusionary relationship is a pretty good one. and now he and i are in middle age where you are a little more mellow than previously. i am not sure what the impact of life stage is on socionics....middle age is hardly a time to begin a driving quest for power and position.
perhaps somebody like rick will see this and comment?
STOP! IT IS NOT DEFINITELY TRUE BECAUSE IT HAS ALREADY BEEN DISPROVEN BY OBSERVATIONS. CHOSE YOU WORDS CAREFULLY.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedrus
ILIs are NOT skinny, most of them are around 4.5-2-5 in sheldon's classifications, whereas IEIs are usually 2-3-4. Check any type description of ILIs and they'll say they are round-ish.Quote:
and it is fully consistent with body type theory. Every SEI I know in real life is roundish. IEIs in general are less roundish and have roughly the same body type as an ILI. Expat is of course right about the importance of being careful, and that there are exceptions to the overall statistic pattern, but if you think that someone skinny is an SEI you should check the arguments for that hypothesis at least one more time.
ISFps aren't skinny? Hmm I've known some very skinny ISFps in my life. The skinny ones seem to have been the men though.
Some types might be more likely to indulge, and some types might diet more because they might be more worried about what impression they make on others, but simple genetics and metabolism are probably more important overall than that IMO.
Those who can read what I wrote in my last post will of course notice that I didn't say that ILIs are skinny. I said that they are less roundish than SEIs, and that is still a true statement.
As I think Expat has mentioned in one of his posts in the past, IPs can vary in body types, perhaps more than other temperaments. I know at least one very fat ILI, but most of them seem to be more normally built with perhaps a tendency to be slightly more skinny than the average person, at least when younger. In the type descriptions ILIs are said to have a tendency to put on weight as they grow older, and that may be true. LIIs and EIIs seem to be almost immune to that phenomenon. SEIs, on the other hand, are clearly at least slightly more roundish than the average person.
A lot of people - if not most - tend to put on weight as they grow older; your metabolism shifts gears. I agree that, empirically, LIIs and EIIs are less likely to become really fat but they also often put on weight (while still remaining relatively slender).Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedrus
On body types, generally, I suggest caution. Yes I agree that a considerably fat (not just somewhat overweight) person, when young, is not very likely to be LII or EII. I would rule out these types, and be skeptical of other IJ types too, for such a person, unless all the other evidence were overwhelming. But otherwise, I would give body type less weight than other evidence.
I would give body type about the same weight as V.I. -- they are really two sides of the same coin. But of course no single type of evidence is enough in itself to determine someone's type, including intertype relations and functions.
V.I. involves facial expressions, which are highly related to type. Body type, while possibly genetically related, is a bit less conclusive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedrus
I'd offer the following explanation for body type: Simply combine type factors that affect exercise and eating habits. So, S types and rational types are more likely to exercise, but S types are also more likely to be big on food, and N types may be more likely to "forget to eat." Introversion is probably related to solitary exercise, such as endurance-related exercise, while extraversion to team sports that require a more muscular build.
However, lots of things may affect a individual's eating and exercise habits.
One is a victim, the other is a caregiver.
BAM!
utterly pathetic.Quote:
Originally Posted by UDP
Oh yeah, I forgot - "you decapitate SEIs, where as IEIs you push off a cliff or tall building"
I'm INFp and my best friend is ENTp. we've been best friends for 6 years (since highschool) and we never tire of each other's company. I think I've met an ENTp girl and I found her general "aura" unassailably attractive - unfortunately I was too shy to do anything about it. don't put too much weight on "power and position", the main thing you'd have to take care of, in terms of dealing with an INFp, is feeling comfortable taking the initiative - especially in sexual matters! after a few times you'll find that we're quite suggestible and if we like you you can get us to do pretty much anything lol. also if an INFp is being lazy it's probably cuz he doesn't know that fuck to do with his life and needs direction, if you know that he has any talent in any area then compliments can work wonders -we're totally vulnerable to flattery!Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaze8
also you mentioned you're in your 40s. I remember reading that later in life people tend to develop their "weaker" functions and this seems to be true, from what I can tell, thus type-related conflicts should play a lesser role. I'd think that cultural/educational influences would be just as important to take into consideration. The "pot-head" INFp that you dated, for example, was probably just never inspired and so didn't continue his education and thus never was able to formulate realistic goals that would get him anywhere. i used to smoke pot too but i don't really anymore unless everyone around me is doing it, i find it seriously inhibits me from taking charge and doing anything about anything and my biggest fear is becoming a nothing
edit: btw after i'm done this hellish week of exams and graduate school applications i'll get back to filatova descriptions, i'm almost done the intj one and can get to the isfp after that
that's actually quite helpful....i do find that i have to take the initiative a lot. but then i feel like i'm pressuring him and say if i'm trying to make plans, and he's not really committing, then i feel like pest and that he's being gamey. i told him this last night, he seemed surprised.Quote:
Originally Posted by misutii
he does need tons of alone time which i didn't really understand till i read the filatova description. i'm like the opposite. i'm very energetic and want to always be out and about socializing with my friends or him or busy doing something. i can chill out at home, too, but i'd still rather be with someone even in that condition. i don't need that much time alone because i start thinking too much, lol.
i'm happy that was useful, here's more stuff for you! definitely don't feel like you're pressuring him unless it's to constantly go be social with people he doesn't care about. Basically you're responsible for all matters of "practical reality" that is deciding what to do during the current moment. If he enjoys your company then he likely doesn't care what you two do together as he just likes being with you as you do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaze8
Also you'll find him more receptive to doing things "just the two of you" vs. with other people. It's forcing to deal with larger groups that will tire him out. If you want him to get along with your friends you should have them interact in a more intimate environment, i.e. just you, the infp, and one friend. Personally I find interactions of larger groups to be relatively shallow and meaningless as they leave something wanting. In a more intimate environment, however, I feel more free to share intimate things, and intimacy and trust are dependent on each other - and we all prefer to be around people we trust!
Also i bet you could introduce him to socionics and he'd find it fascinating, especially if you gave him an INFp description - the one that used to be socion.info that was written by an INFp would be the perfect intro.
In general with any of your ideas that "normal" people would find weird, he will find interesting and enjoy hearing, always remember that if he's not sharing his thoughts or feelings it's probably because he thinks they're weird and that you won't find them interesting or disapprove them.
if he's acting "gamey" or seeming "silently pretentious" just remember that it's a defense mechanism and don't take it personally. he's likely too busy criticizing himself to be criticizing you. don't expect him to open up right away, just leave it to time. lots of things he'll never tell you until the "perfect moment" arrives, like when the info. relates to the current situation or to something you recently said.
also don't criticize him, especially in front of other people, unless you can do so very constructively, he's quite able to criticize himself. and when he tells you something about himself it's meant for you and you may find he'll take offense if you share that info with your friends. this is because he sees information as power and so while he may be willing to give you this power you can understand he doesn't want ppl he doesn't trust to have it over him
infp behaviour may seems unpredictable at first but really it's not. if this information is useful and you have any more questions feel free to ask
you sound as though you know him! he's definitely said stuff about not telling others stuff he's said to me. he described a situation where his ex criticized him in front of other, didn't appreciate that at all. i did introduce some socionics concepts and he found it pretty interesting. you're uncanny!Quote:
Originally Posted by misutii
The INFp friend I'm closest with IRL is also a so-variant sx-last in the ennagram, that might have something to do about it. Besides...I wouldn't have known what to place as negatives otherwise!:/Quote:
Originally Posted by misutii
no i agree with you that it's a recognizable trait, but at the same time defining power and position, for an INFp, is going to be relative to his/her own 'power and position' and thus is very variableQuote:
Originally Posted by FDG
The female INFps I know IRL always give me the impression that they are potential rich men's wives (partly because of their duals), alongside with IXFjs. :P :lol:
.
Just kidding. I don't really care that much whether the guy is rich or not. But I definitely feel that financial stability is very important.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diana
It's just confusing because an ESTp is good at encouraging i think. The stereotype of INxp is that they need .. goading.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kioshi
oh yeah. to the original post, I do think that ISFps are more visibly moody. She is taking care of her personal space.. or something.
I find INFps wittier and sexier than ISFps. I have actually been trying to figure out why they are so much sexier to me.
Is this accurate?
Quote:
IEI's generally seem (from my perspective) to have a subtlety odd, quietly whimsical nature. They're daydreamers and if they do stand out, it's more likely to be for their eccentricity than for any type of in-your-face presence. They generally seem less "there" than SEI's do.
Of course.
Me=Eccentric.
Well, any type can be eccentric (except LSE's :lol:). It's a matter of how/why a person is eccentric that's more type specific.
I would also like to add that we exude a much darker "vibe" or "aura" and can be downright sly sometimes. I do not get the idea that SEIs enjoy any type of confrontation. IEIs are able to get riled up and heated up a lot more than SEIs who seem to me to be generally affable all the time. Much sweeter.
IEIs are rarely "there", I agree.
In a super Fe way.
I talk excessively formal at times, run in the halls when I see someone, then flip around them before I get there.
I say the weirdest things to people. It really is on a Fe Basis, just my way of saying things or acting.
I easily get riled up if I feel like it, but I fail the drive to carry it to conclusion/victory.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarlettLux
You can be unpredictable instead!Quote:
Originally Posted by dolphin
SEIs are extremely sweet, I agree. They're sensitive also and don't like it when they think there's a chance someone could be upset or irritated with them. But they usually won't take the initiative to address it, they tend to take the "wait and see" approach. I prefer to work things out immediately rather than having to guess what's going on and why the other person is acting strangely or quiet or whatever (unless I really don't care). SEIs have this great ability to live fully in the present which is a trait that I admire. When I'm with an SEI I feel glad to be alive at that moment. I'm like the middle-aged IEI who's given up her quest for finding some overarching meaning to life and has decided to become an SEI and enjoy the here and now (not really but sometimes that's how I feel).Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarlettLux
Try not to let the fact that my housemate is a Nine influence your response to the question. I know for a fact that there are some who hold that Nines can be IEIs. I also know that there are those (including myself) who believe that the most common type for an IEI is Four. So, what does this tell us? Fuck all. It says that my housemate is a Nine, and so could either be IEI or SEI.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezra
I am quite confused about how to differentiate. I'm not talking about confusion created by bee and other SEIs who are attracted to typing themselves as IEI; I'm talking about the genuine differences between SEIs and IEIs. How do you tell between them? The Fe creative bit is easy; the IP is even easier. But the base function... I just can't get it. The funny thing is, there are some people, like glam and starfall who simply could not be SEI, and people like Kamajama who could not be IEI. But then there are those who could easily be either. Which is which?
I think the difference is in intent. Thinking about the ego as a means of transportation is a good analogy imo. The Creative function is a vehicle and the Base function is the fuel that drives it. While on the outside the vehicles look the same, how they're driven is essentially different.
Looking at SEIs and IEIs (and any pair of introverted business relations) is going to be a little trickier. This assumption on my part is based off the idea of tracing introverted base functions. Because they're committed internally, it becomes a little trickier for others to really pinpoint their origins.
With SEIs and IEIs I think you have to approach it as a matter of intent. What is motivating that person? With SEIs you can see it as generally more of a caregiver intent, where their motivations are a little more externally oriented. IEIs, on the otherhand, are way more internal in their motivations which comes off as philosophical (in a descriptive sense).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica
Very, very true. Especially the part in bold. And I definitely notice those differences between my sister (vampira) and I, which is why sometimes I wonder if she isn't an extrovert afterall since she has a more external focus, compared to me, of course. It's true that the caregiver v. victim thing is telling, the focus is completely different. One being more internal than the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by mn0good
For instance, my sister sees me as self-centered because I'm more internally driven. From her perspective, I don't consider others as much as I should. Her words: "I don't understand how you can be gone from reality so much. It's annoying sometimes. You'll just sit there in your own little world and forget that you live in society." She often feels ignored by me. Her focus is on the here and now, on her feelings surrounding what's going on around her at the moment. On the other hand, I don't understand how she can see things so simplistically and passively. SEIs, to me, are more easily influenced because they lack the deep (sometimes dark) Beta passion. In my experience, they value external emotional comfort over ideals. With this focus, they are not likely to develop very strong-held ideals, to the point of being willing to die for them. It's not worth it to them. Present comfort and being content is more important to them. This is a pretty obvious contrast between the two of us. I get these extremely strong impulses to defend some ideal against all odds. No matter what. Life or death. It's hard to describe the feeling associated with this, but it is very fulfilling. It's when I feel most alive. It doesn't have to be anything huge either, it's almost like an inborn impulse I have. She's not this way. Taking it that far simply isn't worth it to her. It gives her no sense of fulfillment because it interferes with her more simplistic (to me!), sense of happiness. So yeah, I see her as superficial and apathetic and she sees me as psychotic :lol:.
This is nice vero, I think that their Fe creative, which both of them produced will be very similar in that sense, But I think their Hidden agenda, Ne/SI, SE/Ni and their drive of what they want in relationship is different.Quote:
Originally Posted by mn0good
Yea and I think you can group this view the differences in Alpha and Beta in general.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirena
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica
i like this. yeah i see IEIs as more aggressive and edgier, more often. the default mode for alpha SFs i feel is one of being internally relaxed, like basically the sort of person who would not fight w/ you unless very much provoked. the IEI might do it for fun. not sure i agree on either being more or less "sweet" because i see them as using Fe to different ends.
err, where were you vi'ed as ST?
Don't quote this please. If anyone doesn't want this information out there (it wasn't hard to get), I'll take it down right away.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezra
Based on the intertypes I've managed to see we can perform an experiment - If I missed some relations or got something wrong, please bring it up. IMO the SEIs around here break down as:
Kamajama SEI Si
Ne seeking >> Ti seeking.
-very good relations with Anndelise (IEE)
-very good relations with Elro (Alpha-Delta - ILE-IEE by last reconning)
-below average to non-committal reaction to Ti-heavy individuals in Alpha (Logos, hkkmr). Some confrontations.
-below average to non-committal relations with Darkstar (Alpha-Beta - XLE)
On average, I'd say Kam is slightly more open to odd types of personalities than bionicgoat, and likes weirder forms of expression. +Ne seeking. I'm a huge fan of the emo stuff and the rest of his work. (:love:)
Bionicgoat SEI Fe
Ne seeking ~ Ti seeking.
-very good relations with Ashton (SLE)
-very good relations with Herzy (SLE)
-very good relations with Ti-heavy alphas: mn0good, labcoat
-very good relations with subT (self-type LII)
-very good relations with Brilliand (LII)
-very good relations with Carla (self-type LII)
-worse reaction to Ne-heavy Alphas (Gulanzon). Some confrontation.
Under the common subtype system: Acc subtype has weaker but more valued DS, stronger but less valued HA. Prod subtype has stronger but less valued DS, weaker but more valued HA.
note: "Ti-heavy" doesn't mean the person is Ti subtype or necessarily Ti ego, only that in so far as I've determined, the person uses Ti often, though in a few cases the former probably is deserved.
TheMime. self types as ESE now.
Dolphin self types SEE now. If she's beta, then EIE > IEI (imo).
Jem could be delta NF.
Bee -- most stuff happen on stickam.
munenori -- need stickam observations. Leaning towards no subtype.
Gulanzon -- ?
possibly anomalies
(Joy as LIE gets along with Kam, which is damn rare in SEI-LIE relations. These are two types quite a few Russian socionists claim rarely get along, and the main reason I considered IEI for Kam a while back.
This is also a reason I can't see Ashton as LIE, if bionicgoat is SEI.
I'll have to look into this and reconsider either Joy's or Ashton's typings.)
Bullshit. Going by that I'd be a blatant IEI, and we all know where that path leads.... absolutely nowhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirena
I agree with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by implied
I think I am no less passionate than an IEI, and I will literally fight to the death if I feel strongly about something, but I don't do it just to stir the pot, just to get a reaction. I prefer harmony and a bit of light teasing/playful aggression here and there to a big argument for no good reason. But this is not to say that I won't fire up given the right circumstances! If it gets to that, I rarely lose a battle.
Yeah I thought about 9w1 for you and Si sub.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamajama
Well see if it works and all that jazz, although you might be 9w1 Fe sub and thats currently what I'm typing you as.
Ah. I'll remove it then. I thought you had a longer interaction with Ashton.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamajama
Being an accepting subtype shouldn't mean a loss of your creative function, and its return in furor portends glory upon future glory.Quote:
Anyway, since I have decided on 9w1, I will also adopt a SEI-Si stance, but fear the Fe, for it will come in furor when you least expect it.
I'll also add that as an SEI, you lean more towards delta than bionicgoat, who leans towards beta. You also seem more concerned about making fewer Te mistakes than he, whereas cre-subtypes more easily ignore their polr.
If this subtype system is right, it should predict that you're less interested in Ti in others (because it's stronger you can generate enough for yourself) and more fascinated by Ne. Relative to a producing subtype anyway.
I don't know why I wrote all that. I don't even officially believe in subtypes. But I like experiments.
I'd disagree with you there Jxrtes.
The Fe ISFp has Ne agenda, meaning they try to produce a tangible form of Ne in their main projects and interests (Like something that other people could easily recognize and take in Ne from). An Si ISFp has Ti agenda and will try to produce that. Basically, one transmutes internal object dynamics into internal object statics and the other external field dynamics into external field statics.
I do not follow that one likes one quadra better BS.
Also i think BG is not ISFp and if he was then I'd go with Si sub anyhow.
We're obviously working with different interpretations. In my interpretation, functions in the same block work together.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion
An SEI-Si will certainly be willing to use Ti, but will gravitate to using it in the context of Ne. Without Ne, the Ti might seem stale, boring or just unnecessary. (This is how I feel about Fe without Si). Without Ne input, the SEI-Si is also less likely to modify his established Ti beliefs... leading to something like what Expat explained in his "pathetic hidden agenda" thread.
An SEI-Fe will have fewer hindrances about accepting pure Ti with less Ne input.
I'm also not suggesting that Ti becomes the new DS for the Fe subtype. I don't have enough experience to make either that claim or its negation.
Unless it's a fictional character, I don't type by quadra. Period. I think it's juvenile and way too open to interpretation of what constitutes quadra values. But there is some merit in typing along the temperament ring. An SEI-Fe will supposedly have a greater understanding of Fe, and can better understand and appreciate [beta] Fe from outside his quadra.Quote:
I do not follow that one likes one quadra better BS.
What type do you think he is?Quote:
Also i think BG is not ISFp and if he was then I'd go with Si sub anyhow.
If he's indeed SEI, then whole purpose of the experiment was to determine his subtype, and since he has very good relations with Ti dominants, Fe DS and people typed as betas, then a plausible conclusion is that he's SEI-Fe (or at least SEI no subtype).
There has been good points to him being Ne INFj, but Im still not sold on that. Until I can feel confident I'd rather not use him as an example for either type.
And yeah working with different premises limits our discussion.
I'd be SEI-Si by that. I think this whole issue I have with Yake and Vero is because they're being stubborn with their Ti-flogging without giving me any Ne (This Is The Truth, You Are Wrong Shut Up is what I'm hearing). Also, I like Deltas more than the Betas :lol:
Hmm.
I like the raw edge of the Betas, but Deltas are ok too, I suppose. I kind of like Vero's "here's the deal, I'll break it down for you" thing.
But I'm a blatant SEI-Fe, lol
You may think you like one quadra better, but upon real life interaction you may be surprised.
For instance, in my head Beta sounds pretty cool/badass. I'm like yeah shake it up, tell it how it is!
Delta sounds pretty lame, stagnant, and condescending
But irl, I know far more Deltas and I get along pretty swell with them even if there is this block where they lack a certain passion and modualization I'm looking for. Beta's on the other hand pressure me in a way that makes me feel on the spot.
And INFp's may sound like elegant sorcerous-princesses lol, but they have a cruel/vicious center that, once again, makes me uncomfortable.
this is a funny thread. Okay so I agree with Mimosa's observations here. I was good friends with an SEI-Si guy for a couple of years and her descriptions fit us perfectly. Our Fe was great and fun but I'm more intense and he steered clear of any negative emotion. Everything to him was about comfort, either physical or psychological. In fact, I know for certain that he anesthetizes himself with tv and comfort food as well as things like crossword puzzles and sports. I know that sounds stereotypical and he's a 9 and totally conflict averse as well as a bit unhealthy. Anyway, there's tons I can say about this, but SEIs seem at home in their bodies, with themselves, almost all of the time. They have a grounded look to them, they live in the here and now. IEIs often have that spaced-out look. Like they're not paying attention to what's in front of their faces. When my SEI friend and I would talk, it was very enjoyable... for awhile and then I would get bored. SEIs are more "light", more apt to talk about the movie they're going to see this weekend. IEIs are a bit "heavier" maybe and more open to talking about negative feelings and facing them (this could also be an enneagram 9 thing) I'm not saying all SEIs are like him, so I hope no one takes offense, just that our relationship, to me, was a pretty interesting highlight of the differences there can be between those two types. Oh, you could also look at the individual's response to Ne and Se. See which they tend to look for. It was CLEAR that my SEI friend loved Ne. Whenever I would throw it out there, he gobbled it up. lol Likewise, whenever my SLE friend comes around, it's like I drop everything and magnetically follow him. haha Uncanny.
Good stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by redbaron
I'm seeing a pattern here from the responses. Essentially:
The IEI is spaced-out/not with it/on a different plane or dimension/seeing "beyond" while the SEI is aware of their immediate present environment.
The IEI is prone to "deeper" level discussion and thinking, while the SEI prefers light, chatty talk, and thinks on a far shallower scale.
SEIs tends to immerse themselves in not only the present moment, but in the feelings and atmosphere of the present moment. IEIs do not operate in this fashion; they are constantly thinking about what lies beyond now. The feelings (and often atmosphere) with which they concern themselves lie in other spatiotemporal realms.
Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hh.......
I guess that's true. Yeah. *shrug*.
WaheyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyQuote:
Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves
you're easily-led.Quote:
Originally Posted by redbaron
relatively, yes. On the inside I'm like a puppy dog blindly following the bone. But on the outside I try to maintain an appearance of not being that easy. haha Plus it's not like I'll follow just anyone. Has to be the forceful Se that knows what it wants and what it's doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by mercutio
I am trying to type my yoga teacher and I have narrowed it down to XEI-Fe. What are some things I should look for in observable behavior so that I can determine the lead function? Are there any common tell-tale signs that differentiate IEIs and SEIs? It's a little tricky for me because the Fe subtype easily comes to the fore and I am trying to see around it.
SEIs have Ne for their suggestive function. They are energized by it. (ILE is their dual.) For IEIs, Ne is the ignoring function, so they will not especially value it, but still may have use of it. My SEI sister in law doesn't speak much, but quietly enjoys my brother's inventions and ideas and loves to visit new places with him. I think SEIs seem grounded, which ILEs benefit from. SEIs are caregivers. IEIs are victims. IEIs are a little more in their heads, it seems to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by rahmyn
Sensing vs Intuition:
If there is something that needs to be done, SEIs are more likely to get on it right away. In this they are similar to ESEs, as both have weak intuition of time, Ni, and don't feel confidence in postponing things. IEIs are more likely to delay and horribly procrastinate, then suddenly mobilize at the right (or last) moment, develop hyper-focus, and try to do everything in one sitting (and later feel tired/drained having to do so much work).In general, SEIs seem more "industrious" and more enterprising than IEIs, Alpha being the "democratic" +Ne valuing quadra. They have more confidence than IEIs when it comes to interacting with the physical world, and exhibit a better sense of measure and balance when estimating how much they need to do. In comparison IEIs try to minimize their contact with the physical world and get over their chores in wild spurs. Sometimes I even get the impression that SEIs keep track of time by the "material flow" of the reality.
SEIs are more of "taskmasters" than IEIs - sometimes they even seem to me as a kind of energetic mini-LSEs, which is certainly a type that SEIs look up to. The main reason for this is because SEIs, by virtue of their type, need to draw their ILE duals away from empty daydreams and conversations and "plug" them into work and activity, to get the ILEs to help them with organizing their life together. Even when the SEI is living with other types that don't need this kind of goading they will still periodically do this (according to their Si "program"). The SEI is both Se-ignoring and Te-polr, yet has +Si as the leading "program" function for their type. In the 'unhealthy' variant of SEI this combination leads to goading, teasing, and prodding other people (their partners, family members, children) to go out and face the reality out there, to get engaged in work, to keep generating possibilities for earnings and actively taking advantage of them, while the SEI him/herself leads a more leisurely lifestyle, checks out of reality, keeps as a perpetual student, stays unemployed or working part time, stays as a homemaker, prefers to stay in and work on his or her own hobbies, and ignore the external world. This is of course orientation to their ILE duals, but this Se/Te ignoring attitude does not work as well with other types.
The IEIs don't prod others to greater activity - they need this kind of nudging themselves with their weak sensing functions. IEIs being "aristocratic", Ni-base types tend to pay more attention to the "spiritual" content. IEI women usually play the role of counselors and psychologists to their family members, similar to other NFs, while minimizing any physical caretaking that they have to do, as this is incredibly draining for IEIs, which may result in trying to shift their work onto the shoulders of others.
SEIs are much better than IEIs at noticing if something is out of place, lacking, absent, incomplete. They will come up with tasks and mini-projects almost on the spot on how to improve or change things, for completion of which they try to recruit help of others. IEIs are generally more willing to let such things slide and not pay attention to the environment around them. Subconsciously and on the background such things do bother IEIs, since Si/Se are their unconscious functions, but any sensing distress signals tend to be too weak and vague for the IEI to figure out how to take care of them. The IEI usually responds by "blanking it out", distancing, tolerating poor conditions until a breaking point comes or until they are 'nudged' by other sensing types.
Knowing their own weaknesses in intuition and sensing, it happens that these types will try to imitate each other. The SEI plays a role of an kind of easy-going friendly person, who has no problems and doesn't get bogged down by anything serious like work, who is always interested an intellectual or cultural discussion, and carefully hides how much efforts his achievements have cost him. The IEI plays a role of a diligent and responsible person, who plans his budget, never overspends, and generally has his/her shit together. Of course, after long-term interaction it becomes clear that these are only masks that each type uses to "hide" their weak spots from other people.
Due to weak sensing, IEIs (and some Ni-EIEs) may feel like they can "see through" others instead of seeing the actual others. The look of Beta NF eyes seems diffuse, 'timeless', soft and scattered, often as if directed into the distance, skimming, or looking through things.
In contrast, Alpha SFs typically have a warm, soft, "immediate", considerate and somewhat "dense" look, that doesn't "look through things" or stare into the 'abstracted' distance, and instead attentively focuses on specific objects or people before the SEI.
Involutionary(Result) / Evolutionary(Process) trait:
http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Left_and_right
IEIs are very interested in getting to the outcome/result they have envisioned within the shortest period of time. They don't enjoy the process of work itself as much as they enjoy reaching the outcome and moving on to the next thing. Thus IEIs have a tendency to hurry things up (in order to save on energy and time), which may manifest as cutting corners, omitting steps in instructions to speed up the pace, sometimes even being sloppy. (This kind of sloppiness repels the Ne-leading types.) SEIs, in contrast, are more taken in by the process of work itself. They immerse themselves into what they are doing, pay more attention to instructions and details, and generally make the impression of being more meticulous and diligent than IEIs. But at the same time it seems like their progress is slower and that they fall out of touch with the overall vision of their work, taking their time enjoying the trees while losing sight of the forest.
Declaring / Asking trait:
http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t..._and_declaring
In discussions, SEI's tone sounds more solid and confident, with less questioning intonation than the tone of IEIs. SEIs sound more 'set' with what they want and what they believe, leaving little room for other statements (which sometimes leads them to conflict with SLEs who perceive such tone as a challenge). IEI's intonation seems more prostrated, uncertain, questioning, and open to suggestions from the outside. IEIs like clear, laconic, imperative statements and reasoning (that is delivered by two types: LII and SLE). Once certain conclusion is reached, the IEI prefers to move on instead of continuing to explore other options.
As a "judicious" type the SEI enjoys conversations, debates, and discussions. The IEI may participate in extensive, thorough discussions, but later they will feel somehow demotivated, disinterested, and frustrated if there's nothing more going on besides idle talk.
In conversations, if a SEI is referencing an external source, they are more likely to be accurate to the original source and state things literally as they were in the original. IEIs may deviate, because they have a strong "intuitive" tendency generalize and draw associations between various bits of information on basis of similarity. Thus, IEI's statements may seem a bit vague and muddled in comparison to detailed literalness of the SEI. In general, IEI arguing style resembles a chaotic whirlpool (for strong Fe subtypes especially) and in debates and conversations the IEI may suddenly loop back to previous topics, or change direction in a "zig-zag" fashion.
To fulfill their Ti Hidden Agenda, SEIs may provoke others into explaining things to them by teasing them with criticisms, making jest of their arguments, playfully testing their ability to rationally analyze things. In this way SEIs resemble their distant D-A cog cousins ILIs. IEIs, to the contrary, may impart the impression of know-it-alls by tightly grabbing onto some idea/conclusion/notion and defending it at all costs, but are hesitant to criticize others or provide explanations on the spot. IEIs also easily get "infected" by ideas that come from their beneficiaries LIIs, while SEIs are "tuned" to what their beneficiaries LSIs have to say.
SiFe vs NiFe:
For SEIs, Fe comes blocked together with a sensing element Si. This imparts certain differences to their emotional expressions and perceptions in comparison to IEIs, whose Fe is blocked with an intuitive element Ni.
SEIs are much more likely than Beta NFs to flatly comment on someone's physical appearance and traits, sometimes doing so in jest and irreverently from the point of view of "aristocratic" types. Having F and S elements blocked together, Alpha and Gamma SFs are inclined to evaluate someone by their concretely obvious traits: by their immediate facial expressions, gestures, mannerisms, body language, by the look in their eyes, appearance, etc. For the "aristocratic" Beta NFs this seems to be besides the point, if not downright distasteful. Beta NFs focus on the "general themes" and "sub-context" of conversations, and assess the potential, possibilities, and "positioning" of everything and everyone involved.
SEI emotional reactions come in "small, immediate portions" and correspond directly to the actual situation and the discrete moments that the SEI is living through (Fe+S). The SEI reads the emotion of others from the actual, in-the-moment statements (and in-the-moment facial expressions and body language if the SEI can see the person). If a person is signaling about their distress, the SEI is likely to offer immediate and specific to the situation help. In contrast, IEI's emotional reactions seem more diffuse and protracted, spread along the thematic culmination of the context in which the IEI finds him/herself (Fe+N), and thus sometimes too vague, general, and not quite corresponding to the actual situation. If a person is signaling of their distress, instead of providing specific and immediate help, the IEI is likely to provide their help by means of sharing certain philosophical outlook that would make it easier to cope with the situation, or providing psychological help to mend things in this situation that this person has found themselves in. Due to strong intuition, the IEI automatically generalizes any situation along with many other similar situations that have happened before, and then pays attention to the 'essence' of this situation or 'what it all means' rather than what is happening in the moment.
SEI "Process" vs. IEI "Result"
http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t...haracteristics
SEI's conversation style feels to be more explicit, sequential, and detailed than that of IEI's. IEI's expression style, in comparison, feels more scattered, underspoken, and incomplete. As a "Process" (Evolutionary) type, SEIs 'increase the informational complexity' of the conversation and prefer explicit detailed explanations. To contrast, IEIs as "Result" (Involutionary) types instead tend to speak in already made conclusions, preferring to skip how they got to them, and sometimes randomly looping back to previous points. Instead of adding complexity, IEIs tend to summarize, condense, and simplify.
Another 'social' effect of the "Process-Result" dichotomy that has been brought up in this article, is that SEI, as "Process(right)" type acts more friendly, receptive, and welcoming at large interpersonal distance - i.e. they put on their "best face" in social groups, when interacting with acquaintances and 'distant' social contacts'. However, as you get closer to a SEI, they start uncovering a more negative and dissatisfied side to themselves, and you'll get to hear about how this is not right or that is not right (with them or other people). Several socionics sources describe SEIs as essentially unhappy people who keep up a front of being carefree and without worries for others. With IEIs it's the opposite - at a distance the IEIs are more likely to present themselves as more 'edgy' and 'bitey', act irreverent, start arguments with others, get into mischief, but once you have managed to get close to an IEI they warm up and become more friendly and accepting.
SEI-IEI mistypings and 'stumbling blocks'
While typing, the following stumbling blocks should be kept in mind.
Si vs. Ni: Inability of many socionics practitioners to tell apart Si from Ni, fueled in part by absence of accurate descriptions of Si as an Ego element and the prevalence of biased and misconstrued "romanticizing" of Ni as an element of creativity, imagination, poetic and literally talent, etc. that appeals to many people over the 'motherly caretaking' associated with Si types. This is especially true to younger people their teens and early 20s, who struggle to identify with Si in its "caregiving" presentation and thus will prefer to type themselves as Ni.
SP Instinct: The descriptions of Enneagram's self-preservation (SP) instinct tightly overlap with descriptions of Socionics Si, which leads to a whole lot of confusion between the two. When a person has SP instinct as their last one, they don't give much attention and value to things like "comfort, convenience, looking after their health" and thus have difficulty in relating to descriptions of Si, even if they happen to be an Alpha or Delta type. This leads to SP-last people of Alpha and Delta types to mistype into Beta and Gamma, while SP-first people of Beta and Gamma types may wonder if they are really in Si quadra.
Appeal of Se: Se as valued information element gets presented in socionics as the epitome of bravery and courage, being able to stand up for yourself, being outgoing and well-adjusted to life, while Si is often portrayed as a being a homebody, being passive-aggressive, unadventurous, fearful and weak. This creates an incentive for Si types to type themselves as Se, particularly among males.
Observations of mistypes: In general, there are more (like 5x more) SEIs and ESEs mistyping themselves as IEIs and EIEs than it happens the other way around. The SEIs in particular seem to struggle making their way through socionics theory and reaching an understanding of types. At the end of their journey they seem to give up and go with some NF typing, as Si stereotypes seem too unappealing and inaccurate to them.
IEI notes people's vulnerable spots so that they can throw it in their faces without concern for the person's feelings, unlike SEI. This is because the IEI is good at playing the victim card.
meanwhile SEI simply smiles and feeds you with drugged up muffinsQuote:
Originally Posted by Maritsa
exactlyQuote:
Originally Posted by siuntal
Didn't realize IEI's did this. I'll have to try it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maritsa
Btw, how does taking note of others' vulnerable spots and throwing it in their faces have to do with IEIs playing the victim?
when you can play the victim, you can be mean and still look like you're a softy.Quote:
Originally Posted by rahmyn
where can i get some of these muffins?
all SEIs should be able to bake themQuote:
Originally Posted by bg
these are cupcakes but close enough: http://www.thecannabischef.com/conte...abis-cupcakes/
I wouldn't say IEIs are particularly philosophical, at least not overtly. I'm not sure where people get the idea that intuitives just run around all day spouting highly theoretical philosophical jargon without any real incentive to do so.
I've known IEIs with a wide circle of friends and others with a small circle of friends and casual (but friendly) acquaintances outside of said circle, but, social butterfly or not, they always give the impression of knowing all the right people. there's a sense of aristocracy there. in contrast, SEIs are less selective about who they allow into their inner circle, however, it's generally comprised of friendly and/or interesting people, which I think can be chalked up to their suggestive/dual-seeking functions. quality (IEI) vs quantity (SEI), in relation to friendships.
IEIs will start off cool and distant, like they're inaccessible, with an underlying intensity that sort of deters you from initiating contact with them, then they warm up over time. that is, unless you have something they want (ie power) then they'll stealthily weasel their way into your world. the reverse is true for SEIs, they don't quite cool off, it's more like their warmth is circumstantial. IEIs are more consistent once closer contact is established, like their movements are more purposeful. you'll spend less time with IEIs but your time with them will be more meaningful.
with IEIs, it's, "we used to be close but I haven't seen/spoken to her in a while"
with SEIs, it's, "she was nice to me but now she's not"
both types have malleable characters, IEIs are "corrupted" by power, whereas SEIs seem kind of snobbish and standoffish once they rise in popularity. I've known SEIs to take on the values of the group and snap at people they see as disturbing the harmony of said group, IEIs tend to stay out of it unless it affects them directly, and even then they may back off if they don't see a point in it (or there's a chance they'll lose)
as for how Ti HA manifests in these two types, SEIs tend to hold strong views about pretty mundane shit, like, "why are models so skinny???" (social/societal) whereas IEIs are more like, "why the fuck is America invading the Middle East... AGAIN?!" (global)
VS
you find out SEIs are crazy pretty early on, but it takes years before you realize just how fucking insane IEIs are. :D
likewise I feel like plenty of sensors get into philosophy and do spout theoretical jargon all day... I feel like that perception is something that really needs to changeQuote:
Originally Posted by paranoid
obnoxious Te PoLR activatesQuote:
Originally Posted by paranoid
Oh so just because it's global it's more important :rolleyes: ?
----
Agree about the aristocracy thing. I tend to meet people in groups and then pick off my favorites to be my closer friends and acquaintances. Also yep, I do have a tendency of seeing people in terms of utility. "Hm, you'll be PERFECT for introducing me to new music... and you'll be great at watching TV shows with...".
I think my HA manifests more in a shallow desire to "understand how things work". The Hidden Agenda function to me is the "look at me do this I'm soooooo smart" function (especially since it covers for the PoLR, so using it can feel like a clever workaround). It's when I ask an engineer about how they produce a plastic or whatever so that I feel intelligent, but I don't actually care about using that knowledge in practice.
well, the former involves invading foreign lands, ransacking their resources, and maiming, killing, and raping innocent civilians, which I'd deem a more pressing issue than unrealistic beauty standards making teenage girls in the West feel insecure about themselves. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Stellafera
that sounds more like Te HA to me. Knowing for the sake of knowing rather than seeking understanding. I think the nature of Ti is in creating a latticework of mental models wherein every new piece of information is mentally sifted through before it's accepted and carefully placed on this ever-expanding "tree" of information, so I fail to see how "look at me do this I'm soooo smart" is indicative of Ti HA.Quote:
I think my HA manifests more in a shallow desire to "understand how things work". The Hidden Agenda function to me is the "look at me do this I'm soooooo smart" function (especially since it covers for the PoLR, so using it can feel like a clever workaround). It's when I ask an engineer about how they produce a plastic or whatever so that I feel intelligent, but I don't actually care about using that knowledge in practice.
Hm, maybe I described it poorly; it's definitely more about understanding for the sake of understanding than knowing for the sake of knowing. "Knowing for the sake of knowing" sounds more like becoming a human trivia book. When I'm provided with a lot of facts, it reads as informative... for someone else, but useless for me unless I stare at it a while and try to understand how it fits together. I don't feel the buzz of "I learned something new!" until I fit it together right in my head. Not a very naturally empirical thinker here. :oops: What you describe as Ti is very much in my experience; I make a lot of comments like "Yes, I see that it works obviously, but I don't care. I have to know why it works".Quote:
Originally Posted by paranoid
In my example given, I tend to hurry whoever I'm talking through all the details ("I bought whatever kilograms of whatever...") and ask them to just explain the generalized thought process behind it and the overall way they're attacking the problem, because that's what I really want and it's hard to fit that all together on my own through a fast-paced face-to-face conversation. I should probably do that less but sometimes I'm lazy.
If I use Fe as a creative function, but my mental imagery is awful. Does that mean I'm probably an SEI instead of an IEI? How much is mental imagery associated with Ni? Any IEI/SEI's here care to tell me how good their mental imagery is? Thank you!
Right? They're pretty similar... in appearance. I picture SEI as the somewhat swaggy musician, you know the kind with many tattoos that does it for fame and glory and for all the girls in the backstage, eheh. The thing is ESI are very creative, but even quite practical about it. They might not delve in the more philosophical sides of their creation, like they are more interested in the convenient side of that.
IEI seem more like the out this world- philosophers. At least the ones I know give this impression, they seem to follow their own visions, not caring if that might actually turn useful or convenient, and nevermind what it is about, although it's usually something quite meaningful to them, but this doesn't mean they'll have more developed mental images, but they'll doubtlessly value that side more compared to what they might gain out of that...