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Expat and Joy I do see your points, I disagree with a lot of it, and to be honest I do not want to prolong this discussion. I just sort of want everyone to get together and just forget the past and what not. I still do not see that they committed any offence that deserves to be banned as opposed to just giving a warning. Banning seemed a bit harsh and inappropriate and probably unfair to me. I guess there will be different views about what sort of behaviour is so bad that a ban is necessary.
i didn't see anything go down but i can see how banning was reasonable... this is like the only english language socionics forum on the internet and so its integrity must be maintained or else the whole purpose of the forum (socionics) dissipates.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan
if you put yourself in the admin's shoes it makes a lot of sense. especially since you're the one that has to pick up the garbage everyday. Imagine some people come to your house and start throwing shit around cuz it's funny and they're bored. well other people at your house probly won't mind, after all watching glass shatter is pretty fun.... unless you're the one that has to pick all the shards out of the carpets later... eventually your fingers start bleeding so you start using tweezers..... a few weeks later you're still inviting people over but it's more of a formality as you're too busy picking shards of glass out of the carpet to actually carry on an insightful situation... by now the tweezers broke, the vacuum exploded, and your hands are bloody useless paws... and still some fucker is getting their jollies out of breaking shit in your house...
they don't realize their impulsive high-seeking behaviour is dragging down your standard of living, after all maybe they break shit in their house too and they're cool with living amongst fragments of things that used to be something, but you're not, and you're pissed, so you reach into your closet, which by now is stacked full of piles of bloody bandages, and with the help of your friend you re-use those bandages on the fuckers that are fucking up your shit, wrapping them around and around, you leave some flack so they can talk, but if they try to reach for a glass the bandages will start to unwind and the inconsiderate individual will roll down the stairs and out the door.
some people see you doing this and they're like "OMG PLZ!!! FREEDOM"!!!!111 but they're the same people that, a few years ago, when, heaven forbid, terrorists struck, begged authorities to come save them, cuz they didnt want to take responsibility for their own safety, and then bitched, "OMG PLZ!!!! FREEDOM!!1111" when the authorities actually did something about it, so it's difficult getting through to these people why you had to take the measures that you did, and so the easiest way to put it is like this - they were wasting my time, and time is money, and i don't plan on dying an old miserable pauper, do you? exactly
maintaining forums is a bitch, maintaining a bitch with rabies is stupidly masochistic, after the 5th rabies shot you realize this so you gotta put down the crazy bitches before they infect the bitches you like who, once infected, will no doubt infect you as well
lol, yes, i'm procrastinating right now, hope my analogy worked, oh god it was only like 5 lines in my head, back to work for me!
NoQuote:
Originally Posted by XoX
EDIT: That couldn't be further from the truth.
I don't think two people are "most of em"Quote:
Originally Posted by Joy
Now you've peeked my interest, who besides krae and jadae was banned that is "from the beta quadra"? The rest, if I recall correctly, the ones that vandalized the forum, are all gamma.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joy
Regarding the banning of krae and jadae, if I am not mistaken, those two posters were inactive at the time they were banned, that is, they stopped with the trolling. If they stopped with the trolling, why were they then subsequently banned for their past actions?
Actually the beta forum didn't take a hit at all, the worse hit was on gamma.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blaze8
The irony is too sweet, I can't resist, can I be a part of your group? Please? I want to be free of the group mentality that doesn't exist and you do not propagate too. Pretty please?Quote:
Originally Posted by Joy
Anyway beta is a yawn cause herzy was the biggest contributor here and nobody is there to take her place.
Well that is all academic now -- but some people, myself included, see some of them as Beta rather than Gamma, above all Ashton. Catholic Schoolboy may well indeed be Gamma. CPig, I don't know. Another reason why I prefer to think of individuals rather than quadras. That story about "oh he hates Betas" or "oh he hates Socionix" is just sand thrown in people's eyes.Quote:
Originally Posted by snegledmaca
That's a fair enough question.Quote:
Originally Posted by snegledmaca
They hadn't "stopped with the trolling" -- they were basically still around, rather often logged, ready to pop in now and then just to post insults. That was a pattern that had been going on for some time. They had become trolls and trolls they remained; only they weren't very active even as trolls. They might have been banned before the event; the banning of the forum-defacement gang provided the, uhm, "momentum" to get rid of all of the trash at once.
So perhaps the emotionality of the time contributed towards the timing of the banning, but not towards the decision itself.
And, again, for the umpteenth time -- if most people here really think that Jadae and krae should be allowed back (assuming they'd want it), and if people think they have anything useful/constructive/amusing to contribute, say so.
I wasn't serious. I was just throwing in a stereotype.Quote:
Originally Posted by snegledmaca
What Expat said.Quote:
Originally Posted by snegledmaca
What group would that be? Me and Expat? We're two individuals, not a group. :lol: I was just thinking how it's funny that once in a while lately, especially in this thread, he and I have practically been able to speak for eachother. I'm certain that there are many, many people in the world who see others as individuals rather than seeing them as part of a group . The reason I mentioned Expat and myself specifically in the part you quoted is because I was answering a comment that was about him and me specifically, and because I felt comfortable answering for him.Quote:
The irony is too sweet, I can't resist, can I be a part of your group? Please? I want to be free of the group mentality that doesn't exist and you do not propagate too. Pretty please?Quote:
Originally Posted by Joy
But if you'd like me (or perhaps even Expat?) to start speaking for you, just lemme know. I'll see what I can do. :P
http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/...ticons7/41.gif http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/...ticons7/18.gifQuote:
Anyway beta is a yawn cause herzy was the biggest contributor here and nobody is there to take her place.
I ask cause Joy of all people shouldn't abuse other peoples right to call themselves whatever type they desire, even if it isn't their type, and to respect their choice. I myself don't believe in such things and believe in proof (Ironic isn't it?) but I presume she does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Expat
I actually agree that ashton could be beta, but sycophant is INTp, no doubt about that. She's not my identical, I know this from before all of this, when she use to post, and plus I actually know one INTp that is just like her IRL. I'd go so far as to say that she is a stereotypical female ILI. Don't know CP-ig, very much doubt he's beta, his style just "rubbed" me the wrong way, back when he use to post. I'd say perhaps even LIE.
Actually people say that (And by people I mean me) only after other people post a generalization pertaining to and describing in a derogatory and insulting manner, most often made up and arbitrarily prescribed, behavior and character traits of a certain quadra, that is, members of a certain quadra *caugh*Joy*caugh*Quote:
Another reason why I prefer to think of individuals rather than quadras. That story about "oh he hates Betas" or "oh he hates Socionix" is just sand thrown in people's eyes.
Actually I fully support your decision, I have no doubt in my mind that you acted on sound judgment and were not "carried away by the moment". Anyway, personally I haven't observed people trolling on this forum not recently or from way back, somehow I naturally seem to distance myself from such things, so I wasn't really sure whether the posters were or were not actually trolling at the moment. My impression was that at that time I haven't seen or noticed either of them in quite some time so I found it odd that they, who had nothing to do with the incident, were banned for, to me, no apparent reason and most importantly unprovoked. I presume megan was under this impression as well.Quote:
That's a fair enough question.Quote:
Originally Posted by snegledmaca
They hadn't "stopped with the trolling" -- they were basically still around, rather often logged, ready to pop in now and then just to post insults. That was a pattern that had been going on for some time. They had become trolls and trolls they remained; only they weren't very active even as trolls. They might have been banned before the event; the banning of the forum-defacement gang provided the, uhm, "momentum" to get rid of all of the trash at once.
So perhaps the emotionality of the time contributed towards the timing of the banning, but not towards the decision itself.
And, again, for the umpteenth time -- if most people here really think that Jadae and krae should be allowed back (assuming they'd want it), and if people think they have anything useful/constructive/amusing to contribute, say so.
Well don’t, ok? You're just propagating prejudice and misconceptions that harbor hidden hostility, jealousy and generally negativity.Quote:
Originally Posted by XoX
Actually I know exactly what you speak of, I've had the same thing with Kristiina, the mind meld of sort, when you can literally speak for the other person. I just found it ironic that you speak like you don't have group mentality and yet speak for two, that is, from a group mentality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joy
No thanks, not yet, you'll know if that time comes, in fact, you'll know by the fact that I'll let you speak in my name and you'll know it.Quote:
But if you'd like me (or perhaps even Expat?) to start speaking for you, just lemme know. I'll see what I can do. :P
before you two let your debate fall off topic and into the realm of semantics I'm just going to take the liberty to drop in for a moment and highlight something important that you two may find worthwhile... :Quote:
Originally Posted by snegledmaca
ENTj - Gamma = Democracy, "Everyone's an individual! even when acting in a group!"
INFp - Beta = Aristocracy, "Everyone's in a group! even when acting individually!"
No, I don't believe in proof, for most things... especially this particular type of thing. :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by snegledmaca
I do believe that people have the right to call themselves anything they want to. I also believe that others have the right to disagree.
yeahQuote:
sycophant is INTp
I don't see "Expat and me" as a group by any means. He's a person. I'm a person.Quote:
Actually I know exactly what you speak of, I've had the same thing with Kristiina, the mind meld of sort, when you can literally speak for the other person. I just found it ironic that you speak like you don't have group mentality and yet speak for two, that is, from a group mentality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joy
"Expat is wearing a blue coat and I'm wearing a blue coat" vs. "Expat and I are wearing a blue coat"
See the distinction?
Yes, that's very accurate... I didn't want to get into the Aristocracy vs. Democracy thing though because I was worried that it would cause upset as it has in the past, and I'd like to avoid that. This is also the reason I didn't answer every part of every post in this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by misutii
How about humor and free speech?Quote:
Originally Posted by snegledmaca
Anyways explain how it couldn't be further from the truth just to enlighten me? How would you shortly describe Betas?
Also what do you mean by jealousy? The others I can more or less understand and agree with.
what's the aristocracy/democracy thing again?
Thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by snegledmaca
Yes. Some people have the - to me - bizarre notion that you should let people call themselves any type they want and that if you question that, you're not giving them "autonomy" or whatever -- well, if you can't discuss the types of the people here - with disagreements - then we should also stop discussing socionics, since people will never stop typing themselves and others by comparing them to other posters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joy
So if a guy types himself as, say, INTj when I'm convinced (rightly or wrongly) that he's much more likely INFj, if I don't point it out I'm doing a disservice to those who'd simply use that typing to type themselves and others.
INFp's have a bad habit of telling people what to do. I hate when I see/hear it...but when I do it hardly realize, until the person reacts then I change my mind.
I mainly do it when I feel as though I'm the only one who is willing to take control, then once I do sometimes other complain.
DO IT THEN GOSH
I don't see why I can't be a leader...I'm alright at it...
If ENFj is a natural leader then I suppose INFp can be a leader if they want to . There is a lot of similarity in functions. However the IP temperament is not natural for leadership or at least the leadership style would be very uncommon and perhaps a bit unconsistent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clover
I know one INFp who owns a business and his leadership style is pretty close to what the INFp descriptions say. Like "Pick good deputies and delegate a lot of practical responsiblity to them. Network with a lot of people and be a sort of puppet master. Be aristocratic as hell in order to stay in power :D".
lol i do the same thing! i think others complain because when I feel like I have to take control of a situation I become much more demanding than people are likely used to and so they take my behaviour personally instead of realizing that I'm merely adapting my behaviour to fit the roleQuote:
Originally Posted by Clover
exactlyQuote:
Originally Posted by misutii
and XoX....um...of course you have to delegate things when you are running a business, it normally involves employees
im not like a regular IP when I take control, im not timid, and i like it
>:[
I was more talking about delegating part/much of the actual leadership responsibilities (not just work responsibilities which of course you have employees for) but being careful at it and making sure you stay firmly in power and understand the dynamics of the situation. So in effect you have deputies running most of your business and you are more or less a puppet master. E.g. ENTjs would be way more personally involved in all of the decision making process and more dictatorial in a way I would think. I don't think they would delegate parts of strategic decision making in the same way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clover
What you did was not treated expat as an individual but as a member of a group. ObserveQuote:
Originally Posted by Joy
Quoted for reference, posts expat made pertaining to you and post you made pertaining to expat. First expat:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Expat
Quote:
That is the essence of the matter. [...]Quote:
Originally Posted by Joy
Quote:
First, I agree with everything Joy said (except for being too lenient on Catholic Schoolboy)[...]
And you.Quote:
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joy
Just compare your posts to Expat's, everywhere where he makes a reference to agreeing with you or some such similar thing you can clearly distinguish that he is an individual that agrees with another individual (Minus the last reference post. It's too vague with it being a single word). For you, even though another individual is mentioned, which you seem to be equating to treating somebody like an individual, there is no such differentiation. What you do is focus on commonly held values where you reference expat simply as somebody that shares them, that is, he is presented through the looking glass of commonly shared values.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joy
Actually that's wrong cause the first sentence is right while the second one is wishful thinking.Quote:
Originally Posted by misutii
Sorry, I didn't really see that as a humor, I saw it more as a sentence "I'm going to the store now... wonder what should I buy... bread?". I guess I didn't get your style of humor.Quote:
Originally Posted by XoX
And regarding free speech, it's ok as long as it isn't slander, and if it is it better be a fact, that is, it better be provable.
Beta is NOT the "bubblegum" quadra like some people present it to be. Just because some socionicists equate it, in their personal models, to youth does not mean it's described by teenage behaviour. The same goes for delta and maturity and alpha and childishness. It's just a metaphor that is supposed to present their mystifications of socionics in that everything starts at alpha and ends with delta.Quote:
Anyways explain how it couldn't be further from the truth just to enlighten me? How would you shortly describe Betas?
And if I had to describe beta I'd say something along the lines of determinate vision.
Well some people devalue others because they are jealous of their abilities, possessions and so on. I wasn't pertaining to you, if that's what you though, I was referencing general possible reasons a person might propagate negative stereotypes.Quote:
Also what do you mean by jealousy? The others I can more or less understand and agree with.
... me?Quote:
Originally Posted by Clover
If I'm seeking a romantical relationship it might optimally go like this....Quote:
Originally Posted by Expat
- I make my interest known by flirting etc. However I would not be clear about my intentions because I have some problems with that.
- The other person picks up my interest and drives the actual bonding process (as I'm very bad at "closing the psychological and emotional gap" and do the actual bonding and I'm also a bit insecure in these matters)
- Once we have established a stable relations which I can trust to last I'd perhaps like to become more dominant again
Now that sounds a bit feminine, lol.
Then I could add I'm quite sensitive to rejection even in a more or less established relationship and I find it hard to forget if I have been rejected or mistreated in a situation where I was vulnerable. I mean I can forgive but it somehow stays in the back of my head lowering the "trust-o-meter" of the person in question.
In other kind of relationships and interaction I think I generally prefer the other person to be initiative taking. For example if I seek a job I like it when the employer calls me and tells me how we proceed from there on instead of sending me an e-mail and asking me to call a person xxx and arrange things with him/her. I generally dislike calling people anyways. I feel more natural in face to face interaction and I seek to use only e-mail and face-to-face in official interactions skipping phone altogether.
So I guess I would feel relieved when others take initiative. However I generally have many things and projects going on and I don't want to be pushed into relationships. I like it when someone calls me and is flexible about my schedule. I dislike it when someone tries to push me or arrange my schedule. So flexible initiation from others sounds good. I need others to be iniative but I also need a lot of freedom (i sound like a difficult person here, lol but it isn't quite that bad) E.g. I hate it when my wife sometimes doesn't take into account my personal schedule and e.g. invites people over and expects me to participate. This can lead to serious arguments. Psychologically I need to feel in control of my schedule even if I rely on other people to indirectly arrange it. I don't want to be pushed around.
This is not black and white though and when I'm in the mood I'm very iniative taking. More often you see me a bit passive (and resistant) though.
you're an estj with a strong focus on his hidden agenda, XoX. embrace your new type :lol:.
jk
I take that as a compliment but I would rather switch ENFp in that sentence instead of ESTj :oQuote:
Originally Posted by stefana
instead of arguing in a thread about how beta has slowed down, how about making threads about beta?
WHAT?! KELLY WHY WOULD WE DO THAT?!? WTF?!??!
YEAH!!!WTH!!! DO you actually expect ME(!!!) to lift a finger and do anything other then complain and tell people how to do their business!?!?! You're out of your mind!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Clover
No, actually, I have nothing to contribute, I don't know what I could possibly write. I'm creatively challenged :(, all I can do (well) is criticize.
.
For what is worth, I would like to apologize to Megan for using the f-word when replying to her and for exaggerating what she had said -- I said she had once accused me of hating INFjs. That was an exaggeration. She did send me a PM once questioning what she saw as my opinion of INFjs but "hating" was an exaggeration. I said that in a moment of frustration, no with any bad intention towards her, but I see how it could be seen that way. So, I apologize.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diana
:)
No worries Expat :D