'cos they look the same to me. :?
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'cos they look the same to me. :?
heh I posted a joke thread about this once, but people got really irritated.
To oversimplify one of the differences often present: ESTjs work hard to plan for the short term/present, ENTjs work hard to plan for the long term.
It would be a good idea to check out the dichotomies. I think a lot of the threads about them have resurfaced in General due to a bunch of other threads disappearing.
She said "in real life" meaning that, what you say isn't really interpretable until somebody has gotten to know the person decently (unless the person goes around boistering his stuff, but I think that this is not the case).Quote:
Originally Posted by Joy
Well ENTjs have the jumpy walk which is not present in ESTjs. ENTjs emotions are more adaptable, ESTjs are a bit more jerky when showing them. ENTjs are positivist, and this is the easiest to tell when interacting with them - mention any problem, and it's likely to be shunned - of course, with a motivation given. Mention a problem to an ESTj, and they'll mention theirs. ESTjs tend to complain about their workloads more (at least, in adult life), and tend to work a lot for nothing (imho). ESTjs are more tradition-oriented in regard to family matters, education, etc.
ENTjs are a bit more of slackers, but not much, I mean, we could say that they know when to put the effort, which would be a more positive depiction. ESTjs fare better with girls, usually. This is not to say that girls are less attracted to ENTjs - but it's just that ESTjs have the more stereotypically manly attitude and so, especially when young, they can pull it off without the girl thinking that they're strange or something like that. Beware: some ENTps can be similar to the ENTj described. At this point, the way to go is to see whether there is a list of goals in their life, or not. ENTps rarely have it. ENTjs, usually, yes.
excellentQuote:
Originally Posted by FDG
entjs are humbler and more spazzy and maybe have crazy hair while estjs prefer to hide their faults and stick out their chest (figuratively) like birds and they are both brilliant maybe but entjs will have crazier ideas compared to the very traditional and guarded estjs imoimioimoimoiom
Yes that is very insightful (as is the rest of FDG's post).Quote:
Originally Posted by FDG
ENTjs and ESTjs are both Fi dual-seeking; only the ENTj is a Ni Victim and the ESTj is a Si Caregiver. That means that the ESTj finds it easier to be "manly" when approaching someone, with the ENTj being more hesitant. Both, however, are afraid of seeing a Fi bond.
According to this I'm more like an ESTJ, the traits you describe can apply to either.Quote:
Originally Posted by .thursday
I have a close friend who is an ESTJ and only an idiot wouldn't be able to tell us apart. I think we are on opposite ends of the spectrum, thus we both represent an extreme form of our types. Actual mileage may vary, but use this as a general guide.
The main difference is how we think. My ESTJ friend is QUICK. He can instantly grasp a situation, always knows whats going on, and can use lightning fast :Te: to solve problems. However he never has any idea how to plan things for the long term, it seems that he doesn't even care about what's going to happen in a few months or next year. He has no idea of the long term consequences of his actions.
On the other hand, I would not call myself quick. Even though I consciously force myself to pay attention to my surroundings, I am always thinking about something else at the same time. When a lot of things are happening at once it takes me a second to figure everything out. When problems arise, instead of going for the obvious quick solution I think many steps in advance to find what will bring me the most long term benefit. I always set very long term goals that take a few years to be realized.
cool avatar. i'm curious as to how you think it applies to either.
Thank you. Well I would say that I prefer to hide my faults and stick out my chest, while my ESTJ friend is more humble, spazzy, and sports an outrageous hairstyle to boot. Both of us are about equal in our crazy ideas or traditionalism. I'm assuming that you listed those traits because you have observed them in ENTJs and ESTJs you know IRL. But since they apply inversely in this case, I came to the conclusion that they can apply to either.Quote:
Originally Posted by .thursday
interesting. thanks
Their :Te: always get in the way. I used to be quick to assume that someone is ENTj just based on their :Te: . Admittedly, I didn't have much quality interactions with EXTjs 'cos we have really different lifestyles and hobbies. It didn't help that the classes and school activities (e.g. Japanese Studies Society) I undertake in college are usually not appealing to EXTjs.Quote:
Originally Posted by discojoe
I think FDG and thursday gave very useful references which I think I can use in differentiating the ESTjs and ENTjs. :wink: (btw, what does "spazzy" means? :oops:)
btw, between the two, which one do you think is cynical, or considered more cynical? I have known some EXTjs who gave me this impression when I talked to them.
Anyway, after reading the descriptions by FDG about ESTjs, it feels great to know that I've such a cool dual even though I had underestimated them previously. :D
Afraid of seeing a Fi bond? What do you mean? Could you elaborate please? I don't quite understand. :oops:Quote:
Originally Posted by Expat
Anyway, pezzonovante, your description was pretty good & clear. :) Thanks.
Thanks. I was curious about what an Fi-bond was too, I don't think I've ever seen that term be used before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mea
Are you sure that your friend isn't ENTp? I wouldn't call ESTjs logic "Lightning fast" - but that might be just different experiences.Quote:
Originally Posted by pezzonovante
Very good then, because I feared that the description was a bit unfair for the ESTjs and better on the ENTj side.Quote:
Anyway, after reading the descriptions by FDG about ESTjs, it feels great to know that I've such a cool dual even though I had underestimated them previously.
I am sure he is an ESTJ. He is a very practical and grounded guy. I'm sure some of his quickness is just pure genetic ability, but I emphasized it to contrast it with how I think and operate.
:Fi: is the function (obviously present in all types) related to connections between people as individuals. It's what makes you trust someone with secrets, with your life even, just because you know that person won't betray you. It's what I meant in my now-vanished-but-soon-to-be-restored description of Fi as laser beams between people. Or, alternatively, it's about knowing that someone else is a total asshole who deserves no trust whatsoever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mea
For Fe>Fi people, this is tempered or overruled by "sure he's an asshole, I wouldn't trust him with anything, but he's still fun to have a drink with". Fi>Fe people have a problem with this: "why should I want to have a drink with an asshole, even if he's 'fun'"?
We have now an example with the recent defacing of the forum. As far as I am concerned, Ashton, Justin and Anielka can all go to hell and I wouldn't want to have anything to do with them, ever. The mere thought of even talking to them makes me ill. Others, however, while disapproving of what they did, would have no problem having inconsequentional, "fun" chats with them.
The Fi dual-seeking EXTjs are a bit naive with this. They long for a positive Fi bond with others, but they (1) are unsure of their ability to actually detect it correctly and therefore (2) are suspicious about seeing one when it isn't there. That is why they need an IXFj.
Ooo. I see. Well, this last paragraph was that I didn't get earlier. Thanks. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Expat
My friend and I were talking to an ESTj and ENTj today. I noticed something that differentiates both of them: the ESTj is more cynical than the ENTJ.
This is a good way to make the distinction between Fi PoLR and Fi Dual-Seeking: Fi PoLR types usually assume a relationship with someone, and are hurt when it turns out they dont, while Fi DS types will assume they don't have a relationship with someone, and will be pleasantly suprised when they realize that they do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Expat
Yeah, for me it's like a wave - one day I assume there is, then I think "well, but why" and I think there isn't, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilligan
Not to mention that even if I don't want a relationship with a given person, I'd still like him/her to continue being a fan of me :lol:
Ah yes, this is a good distinction.Quote:
Originally Posted by Expat
my bros are ESTj and ENTj. the first one is highly practical, can fix almost anything. it's true that they are very manly in that way. he also happens to be highly impulsive. a traditionalist who sticks with old friendships even when they've gone sour. will not try any exotic foods. great in crisis situations though. could have easily made a good paramedic. great leadership qualities. does not seek the limelight. good citizen. good hearted.
the ENTj is nice to everybody even if he has no idea who they are. often looks down on certain individuals without ever telling them. extremely popular (especially with girls). girls go up to him and are more interested in their idea of him (former jock who has plenty of cash) than to the true self. knows how to make an impression without trying too hard. not very practical and emotionally unstable. not good in crisis situations. tends to overreact to things. natural knack at running a business. will try exotic food if pushed but is likely not to try again afterwards.
My best friend is an ENTj. After years of dealing with him I met annother ENTj which is now a very good friend of me also. ENTj are rare, but to me they are quite easy to spot.
Things that differentiate them:
ENTj are intellectuals. They like to discuss abstract theories. You can talk endlessly to them if it concerns economics at all scales (regional, global).
ESTj care only about tangible things. What is profitable, what is possible. They don't really care that much of what happens beyong their immediate personal sphere (i.e. no interest for global politics and such).
ENTj have very good sense of humor. They get jokes very well and laugh out loud.
ESTj have sense of humor too, but you can eventually get their famous "hey, grow up..." moto.
ENTj are openly emotional. They display their emotions without much reserves.
Overall, ESTj tend to be pessimistic and ENTj optimistic. ESTj prepare themselves for the worst, ENTj for the best.
I bumped into my ESTj (or ENTj) ex-classmate today, and he was wearing a furry house slippers ( :shock: ) around campus 'cos his old slippers have spoilt. :lol: :lol: :lol: I also realized that he loves to wear the same clothes over and over again even though they look rather worn out (nope, he's not poor). I guess he probably finds them comfortable. :? Is it, erm, common for ESTjs to be not fashionable or wear something that is inappropriate? :oops: On a side note, it made me realized that my ENTj friends tend to be trendy and fashionable.
I guess maybe it got to do with frugality. My ENTj friends love to spend money on expensive stuff that is branded and long-lasting. Since ESTjs are usually traditional and family-oriented, I guess they are probably less frivolous and prefer simple pleasures in life. I guess to them, it is more appropriate to spend more money for the family rather than themselves.
I also noticed that ESTjs tend to have relatively less confidence compared to ENTjs. I have observed a few who try hard to be ENTjs. :? They are more likely to put themselves down as compared to ENTjs and they have a self-deprecating humor which I find hard to fathom.:? It makes them appear negative despite their high achievements.
Not sure if my observation is correct though. :?
Shoot one in the leg. If he goes to work the next morning he's an ESTj.
Clothing styles: brand clothing can also be inappropriate; I'd say that in most occasions in which people seems to freely utilize brand clothing (say, a classroom) it would actually be better to dress with more restraint. So, I don't think that if an ESTj shows to be less concerned about image than an ENTj, this means that the ENTj is actually better at dressing.
The last part of your description is probably related to the negativism vs positivism dichotomy. Don't make the mistake to associate it with self-confidence though.
lol @ discojoe
I have noticed this posture thing myself with all ESTjs I know. Though I disagree on the brilliance issue. I have yet to see even the slightest hint of its existence in this type. Always judging from personal acquaitances of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by .thursday
FDGs description above is uite spot-on, imo
This is not true. All ESTjs I know are interested in global affairs. I doubt that this is even type-related...Quote:
Originally Posted by mikemex
According to my observation, NTs tend to type by intelligence. If someone is brilliant, he just MUST be some sort of NT, most often INTx. University professors are so often typed as NTs just because they are good at their discipline. You would probably mistype a brilliant ESTj as ENTj.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grek0
Ironically, the most brilliant person on the forum, as far as I'm concerned, is INFp. :P
there is a superficiality in ESTjs' 'interest' in global affairs. ESTjs have a tendency to voice opinions in anything and everything, regardless of whether they really know the subject. These opinions are presented as absolute truths and facts. I am not sure whether they are in fact conscious of their, at best, limited knowledge of the subject yet they go ahead for the sake of taking the lead in a discussion, appear knowledgeable and authoritative, or whether they trully don;t understand that they are constantly biting more than they can chew. In any case, I would find it hard to deem the extremely naive and simplistic assumptions and reductions upon which their opinions are formed, as suggestive of a brilliant mind at work.
ENTJs have the tendency to voice opinions on everything too (T at work?) and theirs can also initially be based on way too simplistic an approach. They often tend to extrapolate whatever knowledge and experience they have acquired as experts in a field (say, in computer science) to form opinions about quite unrelated fields. For example an ENTj who works in computing may quite seriously present an opinion of how an economic system works, by drawing all kinds of analogies to the computer systems he/she knows well. This is a natural way of probbing into things we don;t know, however, by drawing analogies that have their beginnings in the areas we know well. ENTjs are interested in getting better knowledge so they are happy to use their opinions as a springboard for a discussion that will, hopefully, lead to a better understanding of the situation. During this process, they hope to see their assumptions challenged, even overturned, in the face of better supported arguments. ESTjs, on the other hand, have no interest in deapening their knowledge. Their voicing of an opinion is merely an attempt to participate and impress- dominate any discussion. Hence the shallowness of their approach.
Furthermore, ENTjs add to their knowledge with the aim of using it in some future project. I have yet to see any evidence of such intentions in ESTjs minds, at least to the extend that it can be derived from their actions and words.
As for typing people on intelligence, I do tend to assign more weight to a person's intellectual capacity, as I perceive it, when I form an opinion of him/her, but not to type that person. The smartest person I know is an INFp as well, and I know some very smart ENFps, ESFjs, INFjs etc.
As always, the above are not presented are general truths, nor as representative of the position of NTs or even INTps. They are only my opinion
This is what I really hate about Socionics. These sweeping generalizations based on a few people (who have probably been mistyped anyway). People's interests and willingness to learn are not type-related. I know some very naive INTps who are arrogant enough to assume that they are oh-so intellectually deep and superior while in reality their knowledge is limited due to weak :Ne: and an inability to acknowledge that they, too, have their limits.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grek0
But I would not say that this is the typical INTp just as these ESTjs you know are not typical ESTjs. Being naive, making simplistic assumptions, and being arrogant has little to do with type.
I did not doubt that. But your opinion about ESTjs makes me rather sure that you would not type a person who is intellectually capable and has a broad as well as deep level of knowledge as ESTj.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grek0
You have to take into account that his perispective is biased, being a supervisor, Kim.
It's true that I would start with a negative bias, based on the 5 ESTjs I know, thinking that their tendency towards intellectual shallowness and superficiality would prevent them from acquiring a "broad and deep" knowledge, even if the intellectual potential was there. I would expect a "brilliant" person to exhibit a curiosity and desire to "know things", and i have not seen any signs of this in ESTjs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kim
Furthermore, unlike Eunice, I find it quite easy to identify the types I already know. There are some types I don;t rally know, (eg INTjs) but I doubt I would mistype, say, an ESTj for INTj ;-)
Everyone's perspective is biased. That's why we always express opinions, never objective truths.Quote:
Originally Posted by FDG
Ok, but if we take into account that you are also in the position of seeing their flaws more easily, then it's understandable that you don't have a good opinion of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grek0
Generalizing about a type being shallow, another being arrogant, another being oblivious, another being xyz defeats the purpose of Socionics.
Based solely on the ESTjs and ENTjs I've known, I'd say the main difference is in how they look at the future, particularly where finances are concerned. Both work hard to make money and are driven, but the ESTjs are more risk adverse. They want investments that have guaranteed returns, and the more long term the investment it is, the less risk they're willing to assume. They have no problem with making immediate investments (such as their time and energy) for immediate pay off, but if something requires a lot of effort and offers only potential or long term pay off, they are more likely to see working overtime as a better option. If they do assume risk, it has an immediate or short term pay off. Security is important to them.
That's just my observations though.
We can't go on with our lives without making decisions. To make those decisions, we need to constantly exercise judgment. Given that no one possesses absolute knowledge of any field, including himself, it is necessary to employ generalisation and categorisation among other tools. Socionics, like every system of typology and taxonomy (not only of personality types) generalises and categorises too. This is the only way to conceptually grasp and summarise an ocean of particulars in any way that may be of some practical and actionable use. The way I see it, this in itself is neither stupid or arrogant, nor wrong in any way. Using these functions while ignoring the natural and unavoidably "unjust" way in which they work, that's what is stupid. With this in mind, I would like to think that I am not as naive as to think that all ESTJs are stupid or that there can't possibly be a "brilliant" ESTj. But based on my observations of representatives of this type that i have come to know reasonably well, so far each of them simply verified the impressions I had formed from the previous ESTj i met. Even if the next one is "brilliant", I would naturally see it more as the exception that verifies the (my - biased, based on my experiences alone) rule.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kim
Actually I was just thinking of the same thing now. Here's a recent example from colleagues, both of whom are currently looking for a new job:Quote:
Originally Posted by Joy
- ENTj: yesterday said that he will probably be accepting an offer by a company where the salary is pretty much the same as his current one. Given his experience and the current strength of the job market inLondon, most people expressed surprise at his likely decision, knowing well that he could easily get a position with significantly more money, albeit rather "stagnant" in terms of future, long term prospects. He answered back that he is taking the position because its nature is such that it will give him exposure to the senior management of most large companies in his market. And this is true, but this is a characteristic of that job that most people would either pay little attention to, being unable or simply not interested in taking advantage of the potentially large networking potential offered, or many people would simply not realise there is such an opportunity on offer because it is not readily monetisable. The ESTj on the other hand, has been offered various jobs in his field which he always openly (to the rest of us) ridicules and rejects. However, he has so far been unable to explain what he liked and what he didn;t like about any of these offers, nor has he been able to make it clear what sort of job he might actually be interested in (in his field, which he claims to find 'fascinating') and why. The only theme that comes into play during these discussions is "money": how much they offer, how much XYZ makes, regardless of actual job task, future opportunities etc.
a) There is a difference between categorizing things/concepts and people. People cannot be neatly categorized.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grek0
b) I have said before that the way Socionics is handled around here, it is becoming more and more arbitrary. ESTjs ARE something to you, but they will not BE the same to others. So ESTjs ARE not what they seem to you. They APPEAR to be such. Or can you explain your judgement via functions? I maintain that I am sure you have met more ESTjs than you know, but you wouldn't recognize them. I also maintain that some of your ESTjs are not ESTjs. In conclusion, I think it is pointless to categorize people in terms of "they are this and they are that" with utter disregard for function use. What is TeSi? What does healthy TeSi do? Unhealthy TeSi? Ni PoLR? I think we have long reached a point where "I know 5 ESTjs and I am telling you, that is how they are" just doesn't get us anywhere (this is not to say that I haven't done it, too).
c) The practical use of Socionics is still a mystery to me. It helps me understand certain dynamics between myself and other people, but that's about it. As for actionable use, Socionics is not meant to act on it. It is meant to understand actions. I want to cry every time people say they want to meet their dual...
Anyway.
Kim, almost nothing can be "neatly" categorised. This doesn't mean we should dismiss categorisation as useless. We can;t, even if we wanted to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kim
Of course ESTjs and every other type I know or think I know are something to me, and not necessarily the same thing to others. We all judge based on what we have experienced while keeping an open mind to the possibility that our judgements may be wrong to various degrees. Your maintaining that i have met many ESTjs whom I have mistyped may be equally wrong too. At the end of the day, since we don't know each other, you have nothing upon which to base this supposition except for your dislike of my opinion on ESTjs :) I am not accusing you of that, it is perfectly normal
You are missing my point. It is not your personal opinion about ESTjs that bothers me, but rather you saying: This is how ESTjs are. Sadly, people will jump on it and nod vigorously (usually this happens when people talk about ESFps or their ESFj mothers, most of whom are not really ESFj). And ok, I will admit that I filter my interaction with and observations of people through NeFi, which is not quite so eager to categorize.
And in general I am stating that we need to move away from taking personal observations as truth. Especially when none of it is in any of the type descriptions. But that is not directed at you specifically.
I am afraid it is you who has missed my point. That whatever claims I make here are my subjective opinion, and that alone, is something that I stress in pretty much every post I make. Yet people keep coming back, playing the same tape: "generalisations are bad. Not everything/all are as you say". They are repeating the obvious, OF COURSE things and people are not necessarily the way I say they are. I would be mad to claim the opposite. Just because an opinion is based on and supported by, personal experience and observation doesn;t mean it demands to be accepted as a dogma or a truth. I wish people stopped hiding behind such psalms and realised that the only way in which we can improve our understanding of something and get closer to objectivity is by discussing and arguing over subjective opinions. :8*
As for the danger of other people perceiving my opinions as objective truth, all I can say is that I can;t possibly bear responsibility for other people's idiocy..
The problem is that some people ARE seeing it as truth. But that might not be your problem. Now go and find yourself an intellectually deep ESTj! :P
My answer to this particular question is that most of what's there could apply to an ESTj as well as an ENTj, but I think that ESTjs can get more focused on their immediate task at hand than ENTjs, who are more likely to multi-task... which could include talking while they work. Also, the subjects ENTjs talk about are more likely to seem sort of random to people around them. ENTjs are pretty much always thinking about the past or the future, even if at the same time as the task at hand, so the stuff that comes out of their mouths often relates less directly to their present physical surroundings or the task at hand than the stuff ESTjs talk about. These are pretty broad generalization though. So, beyond that...Quote:
Originally Posted by UDP
[hr:c4694b3837]
ESTjs work hard, play hard. They spend a lot of time working, and they usually work with their hands. Professional (as opposed to skilled worker or laborer) ESTjs are more likely to be surgeons, etc. than do something that isn't directly related to the present, physical world. Thomas Edison, a brilliant ESTj, worked with his hands inventing things. ESTjs tend to be classic workaholics, taking over time and side jobs. Once they're done working though, they either relax or play. They don't feel like they should be working when they're done for the day. They know they work a lot, and work hard. Their recreational time is spent partying, playing some sort of sport, attending sports games, hiking, or just genuinely relaxing.
ENTjs work hard, crash hard. They spend a lot of time working. They may or may not work with their hands, it depends on what their long term goals are. When they try to relax, they often feel restless. Their pet project is on their mind, or the things that they know need to get done haunt them. It difficult for them to just totally unwind and enjoy relaxation. Because of this restlessness, it is common for them to push themselves until they burn out. Once they recover, they go right back to working towards their goals.
[hr:c4694b3837]
ESTjs are very much into their "toys", often things like jet skis, motorcycles, ATVs, campers, tools, classic cars, etc.
ENTjs are very much into their gadgets, often things like computers, GPSs, etc.
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ESTjs think, "Why pay someone to do it when you can do it yourself, and you can do it better?" ESTjs are prone to change their own oil, and possibly even do their own auto repairs. They'll roof their own houses (often with friends, and they help their friends roof their houses, too), paint their houses, etc. They often do these things for others as well, sometimes as a favor, sometimes as a side job. An ESTj who can easily afford to have others do this type of thing for them sometimes still do it themselves, because they are perfectionists and rather enjoy that type of thing anyways.
ENTjs think, "Why do it yourself when you can pay someone else to do it, and they can do it better?" While an ENTj may know how to change their oil and do their own home improvements and repairs, if they can afford to pay someone else to do it for them, they will. If not, they'll do it themselves, but they may put it off as long as they know they can get away with it. ENTjs place a high value on their time, and they often see learning how to do something properly and then actually doing it as not being worth the time and effort when they could just pay a someone who does that for a living to take care of it.
[hr:c4694b3837]
ESTjs believe that with financial security comes freedom. ESTjs are more likely to be interested in investments that they perceive as being safe. They are comfortable investing in their education, whole life insurance policies, their homes, CDs, savings accounts, mutual funds, or loyalty to a company (which earns them a pension or other retirement benefits). The important thing is to make sure that their families will always live comfortably. An ESTj entrepreneur will work his ass off to make sure that his company succeeds and that if business slows down his family will still be comfortable.
ENTjs believe that with financial freedom comes security. ENTjs are more likely to be interested in investments that many would see as risky. ENTjs find risk somewhat exciting and perhaps even enjoyable, but it's because they are wise when it comes to managing risk. They manage risk through doing their homework and well thought out long term planning. They do not mind maintaining a lower standard of living for the sake of reaching their goals, and they do not worry too much about how their standard of living may be affected if (or when) something goes wrong. They know that ups and downs are inevitable when you're building businesses and putting money into high risk, high reward investments. They plan for market cycles in their businesses and investments, and see "don't lose money" as an unwise investment strategy.
[hr:c4694b3837]
ESTjs want to take care of their partners. They want to take care of things for their partners, whether it's small like carrying something for them or getting them something to drink, or a large project.
ENTjs want to challenge their partners. And even more so, they want their partners to challenge them. While they want to make sure that their partners are taken care of, they're more likely to do it by planning for their long term financial success than actually physically doing stuff for them.
[hr:c4694b3837]
ESTjs focus on working hard day to day, knowing that doing so will make them prosperous in the long term. Most financially successful ESTjs generally got where they are through long term diligence. They worked hard day to day.
ENTjs focus on long term prosperity, and they spend their days working hard to accomplish their long term goals. ENTjs aren't happy unless they have long term goals to work towards, and have difficulty working hard day to day if they don't have a vision of the future to keep them going.
[hr:c4694b3837]
ESTjs make regular purchases related to Si. They budget clothes, high quality food, going out, an attractive home/car, vacations, and other things related to Si into their spending.
ENTjs make sporadic purchases related to Si. They generally don't think much about Si stuff, but if a Si urge hits them, they aren't good denying themselves, even if it means disregarding their budget. Although ENTjs are good at long term or large scope financial planning and business management, they aren't always the best at micromanaging their spending.
[hr:c4694b3837]
ESTjs generally talk about what's going on right now. As in, today or this week, maybe this month. They get sort of impatient with people who talk mostly about the long term future or far out goals.
ENTjs love talking about the future and their future plans. They get sort of bored with people who only want to talk about what's going on in the present.
I may add more later, or revise what I have. I realize that these are very stereotypical views of these types, but this is a typology theory. Deal with it.
You make it sound like ENTjs don't play. Take a look at this, which applies to most ENTjs I know:
That's like, the perfect description of myself.Quote:
Man portrait
In the youth THE JACK of practically always thin and mobile. Is frequently beautiful and coquettish, always obayatelen, it is resourceful, ingenious and mysterious. Does not make problem of the clothing: it prefers sweater and jeans of calm tones. And having only become older and dostignuv dignity begin to bear official suits and galstuki. It cuts hair only briefly so that with them there would be less than the fuss.
JACK usually does not stand on the spot, it is carried past you, without managing to be greeted, that also is not surprising with such high speeds. In this situation you succeed themselves in noting only its elongated forward nose and slightly protruded ears.
In spite of entire their mobility, in the matters JACKS demonstrate themselves as the very assembled people. Already in the childhood it is noticeable that they capable, rapidly grip the explanations of teacher and, as a rule, they learn well. They love to be occupied by sport, moreover the extreme forms, where are necessary not so much rough force, as good reaction, prefer. Their speed literally casts a spell. So that to jump from the helicopter to the snow-covered slope and to make high-speed descent on skis - this completely in their style. They greatly love to feel adrenaline in the blood.
But here in the ordinary, daily life JACKS are badly coordinated - houses can sometimes bad to be entered in the door aperture yes even to fly to spread against the door post. Poor coordination is supplemented in them also with absent-mindedness. They can think about the work and pass necessary stoppage or they will forget to turn off washing machine and they will flood neighbors.
THE JACKS it is many friends and the familiar have. They merry and sociable, love to laugh, so that in the company it is simply irreplaceable. They can for the duration of entire evening very successfully cheer people by their rapid, mocking observations.
To girl it is not necessary to think about how to be introduced to THE JACK. It itself will trouble about this. First, it has the remarkable ability to see all and all all around, so that is worth you appear somewhere next, it will immediately note you. But in the second place, for it nothing it is worthwhile to appear initiative (that it, strictly, always and makes) - well, here you already are familiar!
Further also it is possible not to be strained, because if bright JACK selected you, it anywhere will not disappear, will itself periodically ring and arrive. But it is here that to it it would be pleasant with you, it is necessary to care for you, because TO JACK as air they are necessary your decency, faithfulness and good relation.
Never mind, if at times you it is seem that it is somewhat brinied up poorly. In the contact with the people it and actually is clumsy, first it will be rude, then it will offend to anything. Sometimes JACK is inclined to fall into the depressions. This means that he does not have present, grow prettier the work, on which it would be in the state to maximally realize itself. But that to make, in all their deficiencies, then in it exist many other good properties.
It is still necessary to know that it not of those, who solve complex problems with the aid of the cams. This is sufficiently soft, even a little irresolute man, who avoids power sshibok.
From the life: "once we went with the husband to rest, was removed room on the first floor. And here once I hear among the night, which someone climbs to us through the window. I frightened, it began it to wake. When for me finally it was possible to push asunder him and to explain to it which occurs, it was wrapped up to the window and politely it asked: "You prostite, if you please, and which to you is here must?"
As the husband THE JACK is little it is concerned by way of life. To it it is not interesting to think that your domestic nest would become comfortable and comfortable. It also will not begin to give much attention to food and to worry about its health (and your) health. It will be better, if you free it from all concerns of this type.
Dad of this type is friends with the children, preferring starshen'kikh, with whom to it it is much more interesting. As far as low-order are concerned, their presence in the house is always accompanied by some physiological problems - wet pampersami, gases, eructation, but this does not please itself JACK. So that better also take upon itself health and hygiene procedures, assigning it on the care of breast children as less as possible or only in the pressing cases. It can be, this is not very convenient... That zh, be comforted by the fact that it is gay with it! But also fact that it will always devise, as to earn is many money.
On the work THE JACK literally "burns". It entire in the matters, entire in the motion. If it stops, you will see, that he has the scattered view, which periodically wanders on the walls and the ceiling. Your face, correspondingly, only rarely falls in the field the sight OF JACK. Yes even in fact, when to it to look on you? To it to work necessary! But it simply does not know how to work, but still and it loves! Indeed precisely JACKS they most frequently call trudogolikami.
Those JACKS, which are gifted not only with mind, but also with organizational talent, prefer the stable work, where they, as a rule, reach very major positions, become directors and owners of enterprises. Other JACKS, in which more greatly is inherent hunting research ardor, are attempted to work in konsaltinge or as the crisis managers, where they also reach excellent successes.
Without the work THE JACK turns sour, it is begun boringly to live. But to visualize that a man of this type somehow so suddenly remained without the work, is possible only theoretically. The fact is that JACK usually departs from the firm already for several months before troubles there begin, moreover to the larger payment. It never will remain uncalled-for: with its abilities and connections it always has the large selection of the places, where it can realize its practical talent and improbable diligence.
Difficulties with THE JACK (both the houses and on the work) begin when the assaults of formalism find to it. But such is usually in such a case, when something goes not then. Its dissatisfaction and vorchaniye testifies about the internal stress. At that time and begin all possible cavils of the type "4 I do not understand, that you me tell" or "you will first explain to me, with what to stati we must enter precisely so" or even "formulate the same more correctly".
In such minutes you hardly will succeed themselves in finding with THE JACK common language try to retune it, make so that it would feel, as it is good, in reality, you to it relate. After it will be quieted, after some time it will be possible to continue rotting, this time with the great success.
Where did you get that, FDG? That seems like a great profile, I would want to look at ones for other types.
PS: http://forum.socionix.com
That's interesting, Joy. I generally relate to LSE more, with a few exceptions:
1. The gadgets bit. More into my gadgets.
2. The long-term prosperity - definitely more me than LSE's take on it.
3. Challenging partners. I would do this more than taking care.
No chance. http://forum.socionix.com/index.php?showtopic=131Quote:
Originally Posted by INTj profile
That likely has something to do with Fe acceptance, and not infidelity, but still, I am not known for being unjealous.
And I imagine Ashton would say the same. :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by FDG
Who wrote that description, btw? There's nothing in it that I blatantly disagree with, but the feel of it is off. It's like it was written from a perspective outside of Gamma quadra values.
:shock: weird...Quote:
If it stops, you will see, that he has the scattered view, which periodically wanders on the walls and the ceiling. Your face, correspondingly, only rarely falls in the field the sight OF JACK.
Does anyone have any comments on this part of the description?
the entj guy i play music with never stops doing things. It is Work hard, crash hard. Works 12 hours a day and spends the rest of his time writing music, walking around town, getting free food, intensively reading, doing whatever. He's a very upbeat guy, but incredibly self-centered. I have a lot of patience for him that my other friends lack. When we play music he tends to go into thourough detail about the music and how he wrote it, what he was thinking when he wrote it, the structure, the lyrics(their meaning, etc etc)-- basically the facts of the music. I really don't mind because i'm made of patience. but i lack his day to day energy-- everytime we practice he is in full work mode. Intense and on point each song. Whereas I am exhausted from 8 hours high intensity work and a rigorous excercise program. I've had to reschedule our practices for the timebeing to my days off because my quickly waning enthusiasm for the project. I really need to rest. but i still need to buy things, and make a nice dinner.
Yeah, LIEs are the epitomes of 6s. I swear. It's indisputable.
It was written by russians, nothing to do with socionix. Anyway, if you remember, XoX has said that he noticed the same thing about an ENTj he knows.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joy
I think the fact that it's written from an objective standpoint makes it good. It seems to be a very positive description to me.
@ Joy: Are those common traits of ESTj? :o If so, they are too good for me. :?
Joy's comparison seems somewhat lopsided towards ENTj being superior or better, but that is understandable.
I would never buy a huge boat or a bunch of cars or toys - both ESTjs I know very well are not that way at all - it is impractical. They buy sporting goods, and one has a large collection of novels - star trek movies and other things, too. Do you see Hank Hill splurging on a bunch of toys?
Really? I thought Joy's comparion seems to put ESTj in a more positive light.Quote:
Originally Posted by UDP
How so? Please explain your thoughts.
ESTjs seem to be more well-rounded and good at everything. I even thought that there's no reason or motivation for them to get married because they don't seem to need anyone's help.Quote:
Originally Posted by UDP
Where did you get it? Website? I want to read others like this.Quote:
Originally Posted by FDG
I agree with what Joy said, like over 90%. Not quite everything, though. I don't think ENTjs are particularly into gadgets.
And, eunice, ESTj's need INFj's love, creativity, understanding of people, and the sense that they (ESTjs) are doing the right thing.
Are you talking about the thing with the eyes?Quote:
Originally Posted by FDG
Star Trek? Are you sure he's ESTj? :PQuote:
Originally Posted by UDP
Seriously though, I've never known an ESTj who didn't buy toys. The types of toys vary, but they have all owned at least semi-expensive recreational or fun items. For one it was a snow mobile, for a few others tools (which they probably used enough to make them worth the expense, so I guess that's not really a "toy" then), for another a huge ass grill.
I don't know... I haven't seen the show enough to say. I don't think TV characters are good representations of types though, generally speaking. And I wouldn't call what ESTjs do "splurging"... recreation and items related to recreation are just part of their living expenses. And they can afford them because they work their asses off.Quote:
Do you see Hank Hill splurging on a bunch of toys?
Teenage ESTjs seem to get really into sports and/or cars. (Drugs for some, but I'm not attributing that to type... there's druggies of all types.) They also tend to do manual labor in the summer or weekends, like helping their dad or uncle do home repair or renovation projects, etc.
Again, I know not all ESTjs are gear heads. There are some that are inventors and surgeons and whatnot. But they still work with their hands, and have little interest in doing any type of work that doesn't produce immediate, physical results that they can see right in front of them. If an highly intelligent ESTj is interested in science, (s)he'll get into a branch of science that requires actual experimentation rather than a more theoretical field that doesn't take some sort of visible form on a daily basis.
As far as ENTjs and gadgets, I don't think most ENTjs are as into gadgets as say, most ENTps... but certainly more so than most ESTjs.
And families.Quote:
Originally Posted by Expat
The ESTjs I know have toys too, though I know them because they're friends of my husband and he's into that so it might be more about their relationship to my husband than any love of toys. Also, the description seems to assume that the ESTjs are male - at least the types of toys are those generally more favored by guys. I'd like to see some description of an ESTj woman. Hmmm I was trying to think if the ESTj guy next door has toys like that and I'm not sure.
My mom is ENTj and is HUGELY into gadgets. Especially kitchen gadgets. LOL. She only likes to cook if she has an excuse to play with gadgets. Not all ENTjs I've known are into gadgets though. What would be the functional reason for the interest in gadgets? It could be that a particular function causes some ENTjs to be into gadgets but other ENTjs would use that function (or grouping of functions) differently.
A lot of XoX's description sounds like me, heh.
Also, INFjs are so easy to get along with - no drama, no additional stress. A very soothing partner, one who appreciates quality as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Expat
I can agree that it seems like the ESTj has no natural 'weaknesses', but that is only from a distance. LSE's appreciate moral input from someone who LIVES the qualities they believe in. Not all INFjs, but most healthy ones, seem to have an extraordinary character - and that is both appealing and relaxing; trust.
From an LSE's point of view, they want to make something 'beautiful' in regard to their relationship. Their psychological mindset is pre-wired for an INFj's idealism, loyalty, sincerity, and so on. And, especially what I have been noticing lately -- when you really look around at other people, and you are looking for relationship prospects - how many people really seem like they would be able to make a relationship work? Having spent time with INFjs, their calmness and consistency are very appealing, especially in comparison to most people, or after a long day of chaotic interactions.
EIIs are stress-free. It takes no work (for me) to get along with them, and they seem to enjoy what you naturally feel like you have to do. They are also the most receptive to your take on beauty, and are always there to add a good moral/global stance on everything. An LSE will always be a bit of a romantic:
so basically, they are looking for a relationship of high quality, and seeing not many people who want the same thing they do, they are generally very reserved, and only seek to further relations with people who have the INFj's take on ethics. Until they are convinced of someone being that way, they will just stay at a distance and be professional. The EII offers someone who shows a great promise of relationships success, and general qualities the LSE wants to be around.Quote:
Introverted Feeling Block OF SUPERID*SHCH-YA pozitsiya*Suggestivnaya function * the "ethics of relations"
To construct its personal interrelations to representatives of this type is very difficult. Subconsiously they are oriented to the system of the ethical values of Dostoyevsky. Therefore their personal system of interrelations bears a somewhat idealistic nature. With whom not they constructed their interrelations, they assume the presence in their partner of such qualities as pliability, delicacy, punctiliousness, decency, sincerity, i.e., all those qualities, which are characteristic of the ethical program of Dostoyevsky.
It is natural that genuine reality constantly disappoints Shtirlitsev. Therefore, analyzing the previous sad experience, they are very careful in the formation of new relations. Very not easily they converge with the people, they try not to tie their society, about itself, about their personal life they say very little and it is very unwilling.
Very reserved - it is possible to work with this person side by side several years and about it not to almost anything know. In the contact they hold distant distance.
Most if not all of that applies as much to ENTj/ISFj relations as it does to ESTj/INFj relations.
She made the ENTj sound me neurotic actually. It seems to be a matter of your quadra values if you like on of the other. I personly like that fun-flow of the ESTj, but I'd probably be more comfortable with the ENTj's Ni.
I tend to think it's a typical ENTp characteristic, and it makes sense to me to see it as a result of :Ne: and :Ti: . But it depends on what we're talking about. My ENTp brother - but this may be skewing my perception - is the typical gadget freak in the sense that he'll try to get whatever the latest one is. He usually has cameras, cellphones, etc, far more expensive and complicated than he actually needs. If a new model of something like that is released, he immediately thinks of buying it. I normally have the simplest and cheapest versions that will just do the job and be reliable, and keep them for years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
But, since :Ne: and :Ti: are what I suggest could be called the "hobby" functions of ENTjs, perhaps it's really a case for individual preference.
That's a good point. I've known people who spend WAY more than is practical (imo) on gadgets. I just meant that ENTjs are more likely than ESTjs to look to technology to take their lives easier. Generally nothing that costs more than the value it provides though.
An example would be a GPS... I think an ENTj would be more comfortable depending on a GPS and not even having maps in his/her car than an ESTj, who would buy something like that for other reasons (a lot of nicer cars come with it, or spouse wants it, etc.). An ENTj would want it for the convenience and feel very comfortable using it, compared to the ESTj who may get frustrated with it if it's not working properly and not trust it, seeing it as more of a toy than a tool.
LOL my mom has a GPS. :lol:
They're fucking awesome! Do you have any idea how much time and hassle they save you? And if you're driving and feel like chinese all of a sudden, you can just look up the closest chinese restaurants (or office supply stores, pet stores, whatever), get off at the exit, and it'll tell you how to get back on course. Being a home inspector means I'm driving to all kinds of unfamiliar places all the time, and the convenience of having directions that adjust for detours and whatnot is priceless (after all, there are two seasons in Wisconsin... snow and construction). I don't need an $800 GPS though.
Mmmhh. I know an ISTp that has a GPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joy
Yeah, it's going to depend on the individual to some extent obviously, probably more so than some of the other descriptions of differences.
Here's another. Expat (and Nicky) can correct me on this one if I'm wrong.
ESTjs are likely to ask friends for help when doing big projects. They can do this (and feel comfortable doing it) because they do or would help their friends with stuff like that, too. It's just give and take.
ENTjs feel a bit uncomfortable accepting that kind of favor and are more likely to be irritated if asked for that kind of favor. If they can afford to hire someone else to do it, they'd generally rather do that than ask a friend who knows how to do it (depending on their relationship with that friend, of course). If they don't really know how to do it, have a friend who does, and can't afford to hire someone, they're more likely to do it themselves and then call their friend with questions if they run into any (depending on the task, of course.) If they have two friends that would do it, and one would accept payment and the other wouldn't, their natural reaction would be to call up the one who will take money. They'd rather do a business transaction than accept a big favor (one requiring a lot of effort). They would rather buy a service than simply get taken care of. And they don't want to feel obligated to do stuff in return down the road, and would consider this even if they know that their friend won't ask for anything in return.
As I said in Delta ( :D ) I think it's the norm for Deltas to help each other with projects. Like if my husband has a car he's working on, I know absolutely his three best friends (ESTj, ENFp, and INFj - I kid you not) will all stop by to work on it with him. Every single time. And if one of those three friends has a project, he will *always* run out to help them. It's like we're a community and within our community we help each other to whatever level we can. So, say the ENFp has his son that weekend and my husband is working on a project, he'll bring his son and he knows I'll watch the son while he helps because that's how I contribute. But we all know the rest of us will contribute without having to ask. And this kind of thing makes my ENTj mom uncomfortable. She'll say that they shouldn't assume I'll babysit. But, again, we look at our circle of friends as being a community and we help each other when we can.
I get warm fuzzies reading this... it must be wonderfull :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
I wonder how it will be liked for me if all my best friends belong to the same quadra. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Bionicgoat
Another difference I have noticed between ESTj and ENTj is the way they make decisions that affect not only themselves but the people around them. An ESTj tends to make decisions for everyone without discussing it with them, whereas an ENTj is more likely to consult everyone before coming to a concensus that the others agree with.
Joy's post makes sense regarding ENTjs in my experience. I do believe it also makes sense for ESTjs, but I have less direct observation of that.
Who likes meetings more?
I had a meeting yesterday that was only supposed to be about 30 minutes, but we ended up talking for over an hour. This was ok because it was extremely important and neither of us had major commitments. But I really got energized during the meeting, and we spoke about every facet of the organization for the upcoming year. It was with the president.
Perhaps ENTjs like Joy and Expat could describe for me their take on meetings and how they think about them, and how they would approach them differently from an ESTj.
I like planning things, and talking about what needs to be done a great deal - I enjoy the doing as well, of course..
It will sound like a cop-out or lame answer but for me it totally depends on the context of the meeting and who is there - if you mean professional or academic meetings.Quote:
Originally Posted by UDP
I know what you mean (and I agree). Yes, professional/academic.
Last night I had an association meeting and stayed two hours more than I had to. :oops: When I go to board meetings, I'm often thinking "already?" when the meeting's adjourned. I very much enjoy talking to the elected officials and board members in the organization (at least the ones who actually do stuff), too. The more important the meeting is, the more I enjoy it. That's why I've chosen to get more involved in the association, chairing one committee and joining another committee which has a lot of important work to do in the near future. (An ESFj who had been on that committee warned me about it, saying that it's thankless work and very boring. Sounds fun to me.) The more involved I am in the association, the more "me" I feel, very healthy and energized. I've even driven to other parts of the state to attend different chapter meetings in the organization. I'll probably even be staying in a hotel for a night in order to attend the next board meeting. There's some important and exciting things going on in the association. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by UDP
I know an ESFj who gets involved in various organizations, but unlike me he seems to feel that meetings are just a necessary evil in order to get stuff done. If he is looking forward to a meeting, it's always because he knows there's going to be a lot of drama at that meeting (no, I'm not kidding :lol:). He'll even tell others they may want to attend because it's going to be exciting or there's going to be fireworks or whatever. fwiw, the same ESFj is a member of the same association I am... he was the founder and the president of the association for a while... and he very rarely goes to the quarterly board meetings anymore.
I'm trying to imagine how an ESTj would handle meetings... unvalued Fe, unvalued Ni... I really can't imagine that the typical ESTj cares much for meetings. They'd probably rather to doing other things, such as physically working or taking part in recreational activities. If they get paid to go to the meetings, then they'd be willing to do it I'm sure, but they'd probably still find it boring. They may have a difficult time giving it their full attention, and probably wouldn't get too involved. I suppose it would depend how directly the decisions being made there would effect the ESTj, but I still imagine they'd be thinking at least as much about when lunch is as what's being planned for a year from now. He would most likely see what goes on at meetings as something that other people can handle, seeing no reason for it to be necessary for him to be involved. I could be wrong about that though...
Bottom line: ESTjs are tacticians and pay attention to immediate physical events. ENTjs are strategists and care about future non-physical events.
Which type is more interested in travels, journeys, adventures?
I see life as a journey, something to explored and learned from. And I am disappointed with too much hum-drum.
I know that immediately makes it seem N>S, but, consider it beyond stereotypes, if possible.
Literal, figurative, or both?Quote:
Originally Posted by UDP
both. Any comments or insights are welcome, on either aspect.
ENTj are known for their love of traveling.Quote:
Originally Posted by UDP
Delta STs might enjoy adventure, but Delta is the very picture of hum-drum, at least from my perspective. They're the most settled down quadra, overall, especially the rationals.
Hm. Later in life I want to settle down, but I think I am more daring lifestyle wise than the average ESTj I have come across.
Who would relate to this more:
(One of my favorite profiles)Quote:
"Conceptualizer Director: These individuals consider life to be a process of maximizing achievements versus just attaining accomplishments. These achievements are maximized if they entail deep thought and profound integration of everything that they have learned. A consistent drive for self-mastery allows them to stay focused on their intentions and the more they are challenged the happier they are. Their thinking can be described as analytical, integrative and very complex. They are able to analyze a situation and build a vision that no one else could have even thought of, which allows for a natural long-range visioning to occur. In order to help others understand the vision, they will dress it up with logic because very few are able to just stay with the general concept. It is easy for them to grasp the interrelatedness of everything in their Universe and to see the reasons behind things. Maintaining their independence is important to them, because it allows them their need to be an independent thinker. The need for independence can be a problem in the interpersonal realm as people can misread it for arrogance versus the desire to come up with useful solutions that will help people in the long run. Staying on course of their vision is necessary for their very survival, and they find life dull and draining during the “lows” of that progression."
I personally don't see being settled down as being related to being well established. The better established I am, the more I will travel.
Bollocks. Half of them are full of drama badly thoughtout power plays and a lot of demands which have no connection to reality. And you'd think that because they are rational they would know when to stop, but instead it just means that they are more determined to annoy you for pathetic and petty gain.Quote:
Also, INFjs are so easy to get along with - no drama, no additional stress.
Don't kid yourself, this irritates everyone including their duals.
I find a lot of LSEs to be the first ones to say 'I CAN DO IT MYSELF!!' or 'DON'T TELL ME HOW TO DO MY JOB'.Quote:
ESTjs are likely to ask friends for help when doing big projects. They can do this (and feel comfortable doing it) because they do or would help their friends with stuff like that, too. It's just give and take.
I do that very often, but I'm not LSE.Quote:
Originally Posted by electric
eh... I'm more talking about like... roofing their houses, not job related thingsQuote:
Originally Posted by electric
Projects I have seen where this has come into play include:
roofing
car fixing
tree falls in yard and has to be cut up/cleaned up
basement finishing
landscaping work
painting
insulating garage
Really, any kind of big manual labor job.
Opinion vs opinion - fair enough. Perhaps mine should have read "healthy INFjs", but it does not really matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by electric
I would imagine it is a matter of health - my ex was an extremely unhealthy INFj who fit electric's description, although I've known other (healthier) INFjs who fit what UDP said.Quote:
Originally Posted by UDP
what's the difference? some of them have a thing with been told what to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joy
Doing that is not a requirement for being a LSE.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezra
Who said anything about people telling them what to do?Quote:
Originally Posted by electric
Some of them take advice as people telling them how to do their job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joy
Quote:
Originally Posted by electric
Who said anything about giving them advice?