Gammas and limerence

It says somewhere in the romantic descriptions of gammas and their dualizations that they experience "rapid rythim of relations" and "frequent relations" over a short period of time, so I'm wondering if gamma's are more prone to feelings of limerence than other quadras.


Identify your quadra through ideal sex (the16types.info)

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-Very dynamic
-Acrobatic behavior (?)
-Frequent change of the partners’ positions
-High intensity of feelings
-Very high quantity of intercourses within short periods (3-4 days) with subsequent long period of relaxation, restoring forces.

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Limerence is a state of mind which results from romantic or non-romantic feelings for another person and typically includes obsessive thoughts and fantasies and a desire to form or maintain a relationship with the object of love and have one's feelings reciprocated. Limerence can also be defined as an involuntary state of intense desire.

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I've been limerent 4 times in my life, but reciprocally limerent only once with another sx/sp and gamma. What about you?

It's not something I tend to experience much anymore, and if I do, I fight the fuck out of it because I see it as a vulnerability and I can't stand experiencing it. It's highly unpleasant to me.

"Restoring forces," lmao what does that even mean? That seems like a terrible resource.

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Originally Posted by Noir

It's not something I tend to experience much anymore, and if I do, I fight the fuck out of it because I see it as a vulnerability and I can't stand experiencing it. It's highly unpleasant to me.

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I believe that when someone gets limerent towards someone, it means they should pursue (if you want to get spiritual, as a Higher Mandate, God, your soul or w/e) a relationship with said person. Fighting against it, and not pursuing it, probaly is unwise and means you losing out on much worthwhile life content.

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Originally Posted by roger557

I believe that when someone gets limerent towards someone, it means they should pursue (if you want to get spiritual, as a Higher Mandate, God, your soul or w/e) a relationship with said person. Fighting against it, and not pursuing it, probaly is unwise and means you losing out on much worthwhile life content.

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Not gonna lie or sugar coat, I think that's incredibly delusional. It's just chemicals in your brain doing things because you feel attracted, it's really not that deep. Lol, the person you experience limerence toward doesn't even always reciprocate interest, btw.

My life partner, with whom I have the mutual intention of marrying within the next few years and staying with for life, was not someone I experienced limerence with. Instead, we formed a genuine bond that is much deeper than limerence, aka puppy love, over years of time. The many douchebags who fucked me over, cheated on me, lied to me, abused me, etc. in the past before I became healthy, however, I did experience limerence with.

So...no offense, but from where I'm standing, you sound incredibly disconnected from actual social experiences — as though you just read about people while not actually being around them in RL.

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Originally Posted by Noir

Not gonna lie or sugar coat, I think that's incredibly delusional. It's just chemicals in your brain doing things because you feel attracted, it's really not that deep. Lol, the person you experience limerence toward doesn't even always reciprocate interest, btw.

My life partner, with whom I have the mutual intention of marrying within the next few years and staying with for life, was not someone I experienced limerence with. Instead, we formed a genuine bond that is much deeper than limerence, aka puppy love, over years of time. The many douchebags who fucked me over, cheated on me, lied to me, abused me, etc. in the past before I became healthy, however, I did experience limerence with.

So...no offense, but from where I'm standing, you sound incredibly disconnected from actual social experiences — as though you just read about people while not actually being around them in RL.

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Dunno. They have worked for me. The fact that they (the limerences) haven't worked for you, might say more about you than about the fact that limerence is a divine gift and not to be ignored. You mention "before you became healthy" so that might have had to do with it.

I have a question though; if you could, would you go back and erase those negative experiences propitiated by limerence (which maybe was not limerence properly speaking, it was maybe just what we call in my town, having a "tickly pussy", or just having issues and being attracted to "bad boys") or do you consider it part of your life experience and not to be erased?

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puppy love

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- Btw, This sounds boring af.

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Originally Posted by roger557

Dunno. They have worked for me. The fact that they (the limerences) haven't worked for you, might say more about you than about the fact that limerence is a divine gift and not to be ignored. You mention "before you became healthy" so that might have had to do with it.

I have a question though; if you could, would you go back and erase those negative experiences propitiated by limerence (which maybe was not limerence properly speaking, it was maybe just what we call in my town, having a "tickly pussy", or just having issues and being attracted to "bad boys") or do you consider it part of your life experience and not to be erased?

- Btw, This sounds boring af.

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Puppy love is simply another term used for limerence.

If you're going to invalidate any experiences that differ from your own (in an insulting manner, at that,) you will believe what you decide to regardless of what I say, and there is no point in correcting this distortion of my experiences.

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Originally Posted by Noir

Puppy love is simply another term used for limerence.

If you're going to invalidate any experiences that differ from your own (in an insulting manner, at that,) you will believe what you decide to regardless of what I say, and there is no point in correcting this distortion of my experiences.

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Go away narc.

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Originally Posted by Noir

Not gonna lie or sugar coat, I think that's incredibly delusional. It's just chemicals in your brain doing things because you feel attracted, it's really not that deep. Lol, the person you experience limerence toward doesn't even always reciprocate interest, btw.

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Everything you think or feel, including every sense of what’s “deep,” is a chemical reaction. What’s wrong with @roger557’s particular expression of lust? Why would the fact that a girl’s not attracted to him mean he shouldn’t be attracted to her, or try to pursue a relationship with her? And if chemical reactions aren’t deep, what is?

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My life partner, with whom I have the mutual intention of marrying within the next few years and staying with for life, was not someone I experienced limerence with. Instead, we formed a genuine bond that is much deeper than limerence, aka puppy love, over years of time. The many douchebags who fucked me over, cheated on me, lied to me, abused me, etc. in the past before I became healthy, however, I did experience limerence with.

So...no offense, but from where I'm standing, you sound incredibly disconnected from actual social experiences — as though you just read about people while not actually being around them in RL.

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Maybe his unconscious has better taste than yours. Lol.

Have you ever thought about why you experienced limerence with bad people? What conclusion did you come to?

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Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman

Maybe his unconscious has better taste than yours. Lol.

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Very strongly doubt that's still true. He is clearly unhealthy, which means most people who are attracted to him will also be.

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Have you ever thought about why you experienced limerence with bad people? What conclusion did you come to?

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I have simply come from unhealthy circumstances and then overcame it all.

I sort of regret sharing now, I usually don't share my personal things in this community due to its high toxicity levels (as you can see, the responses are negative, which I knew before I shared would be the case and acted against my better judgment for the sake of making a point)...but what's done is done...

It's pretty coincidental that he called me a narc for calling out his invalidation, because the inability to recognize invalidation (thinking it is normal) is one of the reasons why those with narcissistic parents become narcissist magnets: they tolerate invalidation such as that which was done above. Him responding to my calling out the invalidation with "go away, narc" is actually a red flag that makes him sound like he is potentially a projecting narc. None of my actions were narcissistic, yet that sort of invalidation he demonstrated was something narcs always do. My recognition of it, and intolerance of it, only serves as proof that I am in fact enforcing healthy boundaries, exactly as I've said.

The reason that's such a coincidence, though, is because it relates to why I used to end up with those guys.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUUbacS8eaE

The other part requires more typing, so I will respond once I am behind a computer rather than using my phone to type.

There is such a thing as chemistry or strong chemistry. Some people are better at identifying it than others. Sometimes people’s life circumstances get in the way of it becoming something more and that’s not always a bad thing. Chemistry or temperament is the reason why we get on with some people and don’t get on with others. Sometimes there might be too much chemistry..

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Originally Posted by Noir

Very strongly doubt that's still true. He is clearly unhealthy, which means most people who are attracted to him will also be. I have simply come from unhealthy circumstances and then overcame it all.

I sort of regret sharing now, I usually don't share my personal things in this community due to its high toxicity levels (as you can see, the responses are negative, which I knew before I shared would be the case and acted against my better judgment for the sake of making a point)...but what's done is done...

It's pretty coincidental that he called me a narc for calling out his invalidation, because the inability to recognize invalidation (thinking it is normal) is one of the reasons why those with narcissistic parents become narcissist magnets: they tolerate invalidation such as that which was done above. Him responding to my calling out the invalidation with "go away, narc" is actually a red flag that makes him sound like he is potentially a projecting narc. None of my actions were narcissistic, yet that sort of invalidation he demonstrated was something narcs always do. My recognition of it, and intolerance of it, only serves as proof that I am in fact enforcing healthy boundaries, exactly as I've said.

The reason that's such a coincidence though, is because it relates to why I used to end up with those guys.
https://youtu.be/UUUbacS8eaE

The other part requires more typing, so I will respond once I am behind a computer rather than using my phone to type.

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. @<a href="https://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/member.php?u=12361" target="_blank">Noir</a>, the video at your link is very interesting to me. Thanks for providing it.

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Originally Posted by Adam Strange

. @<a href="https://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/member.php?u=12361" target="_blank">Noir</a>, the video at your link is very interesting to me. Thanks for providing it.

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@mu4 why do mentions sometimes do this? It's happened a few times to to me before, and I can't make out a rhyme or reason for it.

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Originally Posted by Bethany

There is such a thing as chemistry or strong chemistry. Some people are better at identifying it than others. Sometimes people’s life circumstances get in the way of it becoming something more and that’s not always a bad thing. Chemistry or temperament is the reason why we get on with some people and don’t get on with others. Sometimes there might be too much chemistry..

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Chemistry=/=limerence. It can also be faked by people — thus, Love Bombing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhILcuoVhgE

Feelings really aren't very trustworthy. They will betray you or lead you astray sometimes. It's sad when people confuse feelings for love, connection, or chemistry...not in the judgmental sense like "it's pathetic," but in the empathetic sense, because it's self-detrimental to do so, it results in some painful experiences sometimes.

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Originally Posted by Adam Strange

. @<a href="https://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/member.php?u=12361" target="_blank">Noir</a>, the video at your link is very interesting to me. Thanks for providing it.

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No problem. Ramani's videos are very helpful to many. She genuinely cares and makes information on narcs fully accessible for free, simply because so many victims are out there and in need of help. Since she specializes in narcissism specifically, she is also an excellent resource for it.

EIEs can be really proficient at Ti, this woman is one such example of using a systems of relations discussion to explain ethics:

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Originally Posted by Noir

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUUbacS8eaE

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I watched some of this woman's videos after a couple breakups with narcs.

Ftr, I am not a narc. I would be grateful if you didn't come and crap all over what I say next time @Noir. I have been warned by a mod so I think next time you try to engage me on one of my threads I will ignore you. Not going to use the ignore feature because I think it's lame and a cop out.

:coffee:

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Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman

Everything you think or feel, including every sense of what’s “deep,” is a chemical reaction. What’s wrong with @roger557’s particular expression of lust? Why would the fact that a girl’s not attracted to him mean he shouldn’t be attracted to her, or try to pursue a relationship with her? And if chemical reactions aren’t deep, what is?

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Every time I have experienced limerence (the four times in total) my feelings have been reciprocated. I think there's a difference between true limerence, and "puppy love", don't really think it is the same. With true limerence, it is very hard to ignore (at least for me) not to pursue a relationship with the person in question, and the four times I have, something to advance my personal self-development has happened. I am wondering about all this subject because I don't know if everybody expriences limerence the same or not. and look, we have one person that thinks limerence is not to be taken into account always. I don't feel like sharing more because I feel targeted by this woman Noir so I'll leave it here.

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Originally Posted by timber

EIEs can be really proficient at Ti, this woman is one such example of using a systems of relations discussion to explain ethics:

I watched some of this woman's videos after a couple breakups with narcs.

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While I personally will probably never attempt to type her (I'll explain why in a sec), I do appreciate that you are not assessing a person's capability to do X or Y via Socionics dimensionality. So many people do that, and I've come very close to ranting about it on here multiple times — particularly after seeing it being done to someone else in a particular context that pissed me the hell off. It was used to invalidate and dismiss them, making them unseen/unheard for no good reason. People were abusing a theoretical personality system by using it in a destructive way against someone else. I still haven't been able to get past my anger about that one. Toward me - okay, I can let it go, it's no big deal to me because I can take whatever is dished out. If I defend my ground, there's a reason. When it's done to others that are innocent in the situation, though, and is therefore unjust…I'm inclined to step in on behalf of them, defending them and confronting the situation for them. There is just no telling how harmful things will be to someone else's psyche, and that unjust risk of them being harmed when they don't deserve it pisses me the hell off. That's probably the 8-ness/826-ness in me, I guess.

The reason I will never type her is due to only seeing her in a single, specific, professional, public setting. Those who have gone through uni majoring in psychology are deliberately trained to use very specific language intended to accommodate clients with trauma and other sensitivities. Even psychologists are not supposed to diagnose public figures due to only seeing them in public. It's called the Goldwater Rule. I see typing people in a similar manner, especially when it's known that they are presenting themselves in a specific way that may not align with their personal selves.

Slightly derailed with this post, sorry, just wanted to say that real quick.

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Originally Posted by roger557

Ftr, I am not a narc.

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I didn't say you were, I said it was a possibility.

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I would be grateful if you didn't come and crap all over what I say next time @Noir.

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Sure, if the next time you don't put me in a position to defend myself by crapping all over and invalidating my experiences and insulting me because of them, you don't even have to ask.
On the other hand, when you crap all over what I say, I am going to stand my ground against what you say.

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I feel targeted by this woman Noir so I'll leave it here.

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Nice try, making it look like you're the victim of me. Don't go poking a spear at a bear if you don't want to be bitten — it's your own fault you were bitten if you do.

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I have been warned by a mod so I think next time you try to engage me on one of my threads I will ignore you. Not going to use the ignore feature because I think it's lame and a cop out.

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Probably for the best that we both ignore each other from here on. I have no desire to interact with you, either.

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Originally Posted by Noir

While I personally will probably never attempt to type her (I'll explain why in a sec), I do appreciate that you are not assessing a person's capability to do X or Y via Socionics dimensionality. So many people do that, and I've come very close to ranting about it on here multiple times — particularly after seeing it being done to someone else in a particular context that pissed me the hell off. It was used to invalidate and dismiss them, making them unseen/unheard for no good reason. People were abusing a theoretical personality system by using it in a destructive way against someone else. I still haven't been able to get past my anger about that one. Toward me - okay, I can let it go, it's no big deal to me because I can take whatever is dished out. If I defend my ground, there's a reason. When it's done to others that are innocent in the situation, though, and is therefore unjust…I'm inclined to step in on behalf of them, defending them and confronting the situation for them. There is just no telling how harmful things will be to someone else's psyche, and that unjust risk of them being harmed when they don't deserve it pisses me the hell off. That's probably the 8-ness/826-ness in me, I guess.

The reason I will never type her is due to only seeing her in a single, specific, professional, public setting. Those who have gone through uni majoring in psychology are deliberately trained to use very specific language intended to accommodate clients with trauma and other sensitivities. Even psychologists are not supposed to diagnose public figures due to only seeing them in public. It's called the Goldwater Rule. I see typing people in a similar manner, especially when it's known that they are presenting themselves in a specific way that may not align with their personal selves.

Slightly derailed with this post, sorry, just wanted to say that real quick.

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I see what you are saying. She is a professional, using a professional's lingo.

I'd say.. have some fun with it. Why not?
I'm one to talk as I saw socionics as bad for my ego several years ago. Its like, once you name the thing you destroy it, or something. But, socionics is systems of relations and some sociotypes are very comfortable with it. Live and let live. We are inside the Mandela. But having said that, I get it. Some hills are worth dying on.

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Originally Posted by Noir

I didn't say you were, I said it was a possibility.

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Same with the insults I flinged your way. They are just possibilities.

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Sure, if the next time you don't put me in a position to defend myself by crapping all over and invalidating my experiences, you don't even have to ask.
On the other hand, when you crap all over what I say, I am going to stand my ground against what you say.

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I'm like a mirror. You did it first. You have done it like 2 or 3 times before. I actually suspect you're my Supervisor and I'm not in the mood to deal with a bad supervisor (I don't know if I'm unhealthy or not, but I am certainly not high on patience lately).

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Nice try, making it look like you're the victim of me. Don't go poking a spear at a bear if you don't want to be bitten — it's your own fault you were bitten if you do.

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And now you act like you have somehow "won" or you are right in what you are saying, just because I was the one that got warned. Because of this exchange, this potentially interesting thread has been polluted and diverted. I find it very cowardly to be asking for my ban like I have been reported. I won't ask for yours though, because I suspect you are confirmed not very healthy and in that case it's best for you to continue to share your thoughts on this site as a therapeutic avenue. You see, that's how much of a narc I am ;)



I'm not in the mood for this so please leave me be. Everytime you feel the need to "correct me" or stomp over what I am saying, try to identify it and don't do it.

On a more consistant basis I do think Gammas suffer from this the most tbh. The Se plus Fi valuing can make them see something that's not there and they can get burned hard. I have felt infatuated before a few times, but I don't value Fi - so I'm not really likely to get attached like that in the first place, or I'm still logically aware of what's going on despite my feelings. I don't act out on a lot my feelings and 'make them real' like more serious Fi types do imo.

When you have a crush on somebody it's like some Gammas have thought I was going to do something stupid or self-destructive about it because that's what they would do tbh and they are projecting what they don't like about themselves onto me ((not that Betas don't have our own share of problems but this specific thing is a projection)) - like it's always been easy for me to understand it's just an emotion. Not deep Fi twu wuv. I already know that I'm just temporarily giving a narc their supply but I also don't really care or get all morally bullhurt about it like Gammas do- so expecting me to respond in the same way they would is silly lol. Sorry it sounds kinda like I'm shitting on Gammas- but it's annoying and aggorant when they do this. But I think it's natural for us to understand the world in how we would do something- not other people.

Yes while growing up especially people often will get crushes/feelings for stupid people that you shouldn't and nobody would accept but that is sorta what makes it fun and kind of playfully Fi in a way even. And besides it's not always bad - it sometimes aligns pretty well (good limerince can lead to good relationships) - though this is more true for Alphas I've noticed. It's kinda how alphas and gammas clash I think - as alpha limerince usually works out really well for them but gamma limerince unfortunately doesn't, and it needs other things to solidify the relationship. I do think there is a lot of Fe in limerince too naturally - so that's another reason why they don't like it.

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Originally Posted by timber

I see what you are saying. She is a professional, using a professional's lingo.


I'd say.. have some fun with it. Why not?
I'm one to talk as I saw socionics as bad for my ego several years ago. Its like, once you name the thing you destroy it, or something. But, socionics is systems of relations and some sociotypes are very comfortable with it. Live and let live. We are inside the Mandela. But having said that, I get it. Some hills are worth dying on.

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I don't have an issue with Socionics completely, and fun is perfectly fine. I just fight issues that arise from the misuse that happens when people take it too seriously. I use typology communities to increase my understandings, but...not in the way most people do. I'm more interested in how people actually relate to it, and thus learning about the individuals themselves. I don't automatically link the information I'm given to types or categories of any kind, I simply use the prevalence of sharing of personal information that is within these communities to understand more about people. That may or may not involve taking what people say at face value; I'm aware that some people delude themselves into thinking they are like X, or they misunderstand themselves, and several other factors that are reasons I shouldn't believe everything I hear someone say about themselves, and that is actually a part of what I observe. [“We are like shop windows in which we are continually arranging, concealing or illuminating the supposed qualities other ascribe to us – in order to deceive ourselves.” — Friedrich Nietzsche] One other part of what I analyze is the fact that typology attracts a lot of people with mental health problems. There's nothing wrong with being mentally ill (disordered) or mentally unhealthy (not disordered), I'm not discriminating or using it as an insult, I'm just saying there's some reason that those who aren't healthy are attracted to this subject. A lot of people recognize this, but haven't quite pinpointed what it is exactly. I've been trying to understand and get to the bottom of that. It sort of bugs me that I don't have the answer, I sense that it's important for a variety of reasons.

Enneagram is probably the most irresponsible because it attributes a lot of disorder symptoms to something personality type related. This is in the obvious intentional ways, but also in ways that seem unintentional and are more subtle. The latter is what is dangerous. Those with symptoms thus believe (what they don't realize are) symptoms are simply a part of the person they are, which means they never get the help they need. You'll notice on the forums I kind of throw out a safety net for people, making it known that "that's not Fi PoLR, it's problems with Object Constancy" which people usually haven't ever heard of unless they've studied psychology formally, in uni. Enneagram 9's "I have no self" is another one. The Enneagram needs to phrase things way more carefully because there is a symptom which is called identity disturbance that is much more severe than what Enneagram is actually talking about, but you really can't tell that if all you know about is Enneagram's lack of sense of self, because they don't explain it well. Most people who haven't formally studied psychology in uni don't know that one, either. The way they explain it sounds a lot like the Borderline Personality Disorder symptom (and the "Quiet Subtype" of BPD can be easily confused with 9). Lacking a sense of self can also come from being abused by a person who is narcissistic, since they basically overwrite your individuality if they see you as an extension of themselves (part of their control tactics). Everything in that person is replaced by the narcissist's values, etc. and who they want that victim to be. This can also seem very E6 because of the whole guidance thing, but it isn't the same; the abused individual resembles an E6 only because someone has gaslit, manipulated, brainwashed, lied, and otherwise abused them. It results in the same low confidence, uncertainty, etc. Those who have been frequently gaslit are typically conditioned to actually start gaslighting themselves afterward. It makes sense they would seek a guiding figure, as they gravitate toward the familiar and this is simply the way they know how to live. However, people are capable of working to grow beyond that and get to a point of never actually struggling with it anymore. The Enneagram doesn't give those who confuse what I like to refer to as "psychological wounds/scars" for their personality type, that same message that therapy does.

When typology crosses the line from fun into serious, it becomes potentially dangerous to people.

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Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman

What’s wrong with @roger557’s particular expression of lust? Why would the fact that a girl’s not attracted to him mean he shouldn’t be attracted to her, or try to pursue a relationship with her? And if chemical reactions aren’t deep, what is?

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Hmm...I don't mean this maliciously by any means, but do you have ADHD by chance? You have a pattern of replying to me in ways that graze beside the point while missing it. I have it myself, and I have been diagnosed/taking medications for it since I was 7 years old, plus have seen it in several others with it, so that pattern is familiar to me. I realize it's not necessary to have it in order for this to happen sometimes, I'm just trying to understand what's happening here.

The point I was making was not that something is wrong with the chemical aspect, but that the chemical aspect indicates it is not a mystical/spiritual phenomenon to be interpreted as though it means you ought to go for the person. Rather than a spiritual phenomenon, it's something unhealthy that tends to be experienced by those who have experienced abuse/trauma.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmZlSDzK0EY


It also tends to be experienced by the anxious attachment style.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuL-2Wp0XnY

I have never actually experienced it to the extent described here, I only experienced some infatuation/idealization for a couple of months. Typical infatuation and love bombing from manipulative jerks. The only time I have ever experienced infatuation within the last several years was after a breakup I was struggling to cope with, since it was different than my past experiences. It wasn't quite transference, since I never shifted my expectations/etc. onto the person, it was just a crappy coping mechanism where I tried to focus more on all the things I could gain instead of what I lost. I mean...it worked, I got over that relationship quickly, but there was a downside as well. I got a little too eager to move on to someone else ("what I could gain").

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Originally Posted by Noir

Hmm...I don't mean this maliciously by any means, but do you have ADHD by chance? You have a pattern of replying to me in ways that graze beside the point while missing it. I have it myself, and I have been diagnosed/taking medications for it since I was 7 years old, plus have seen it in several others with it, so that pattern is familiar to me. I realize it's not necessary to have it in order for this to happen sometimes, I'm just trying to understand what's happening here.

The point I was making was not that something is wrong with the chemical aspect, but that the chemical aspect indicates it is not a mystical/spiritual phenomenon to be interpreted as though it means you ought to go for the person. Rather than a spiritual phenomenon, it's something unhealthy that tends to be experienced by those who have experienced abuse/trauma.

It also tends to be experienced by the anxious attachment style.

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I've never been diagnosed with it, and I've never really suspected I had something like that. Unless being Ne ego counts, lol. And I do remember that Ne is your vulnerable function, so maybe that's why it's throwing you.

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The point I was making was not that something is wrong with the chemical aspect, but that the chemical aspect indicates it is not a mystical/spiritual phenomenon to be interpreted as though it means you ought to go for the person. Rather than a spiritual phenomenon, it's something unhealthy that tends to be experienced by those who have experienced abuse/trauma.

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Well, we're physical beings, and our entire understanding of the world is physical ("chemical," if you prefer). Spirituality and a sense of mysticism is itself rooted in chemical reactions -- wouldn't you agree? So is love, of course. If we don't listen to the chemical reactions in our minds, what should we listen to? How could we listen at all?

I don't see why "limerence" is necessarily unhealthy, either. Having a clear sense of purpose feels good, and inspires great actions. Of course your purpose can be misguided, but a purpose motivated by love doesn't sound so bad -- probably better than most alternatives, I'd say.

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Originally Posted by roger557

Same with the insults I flinged your way. They are just possibilities.

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It's also possible you have been abused and thus you've picked up on some characteristics of your abuser(s), mistaking them for normalcy. I was too caught up in taking it personally to consider that possibility before. Normally I'm good at avoiding taking things personally, but I make mistakes. I could've handled this entire convo better if I didn't feel so strongly against invalidation.

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I'm like a mirror. You did it first. You have done it like 2 or 3 times before.

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False. I have attempted to prevent forming a negative relationship with you, even when you were kind of a jerk about me pointing out your logical inconsistency.
https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...=1#post1490546

I don't particularly like to have enemies.
However, if everyone likes you, you're doing something wrong. It's never worth people-pleasing or cowardice. As long as you respect my boundaries and don't act like a jerk, I'm generally easy to get along with.

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And now you act like you have somehow "won" or you are right in what you are saying, just because I was the one that got warned. Because of this exchange, this potentially interesting thread has been polluted and diverted. I find it very cowardly to be asking for my ban like I have been reported. I won't ask for yours though, because I suspect you are confirmed not very healthy and in that case it's best for you to continue to share your thoughts on this site as a therapeutic avenue. You see, that's how much of a narc I am ;)

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That is one wild assumption, but I actually never reported you, much less asked for a ban. FP had warned you before I ever even saw your response, actually. Also, I wasn't talking about the warning when I said the metaphor. I was simply saying my whatever "targeting" I've done was actually just me exposing the truth or calling you out in response to your lies, etc. Also, you care too much about things like "winning" and "feeling superior," those things never crossed my mind, considering how petty that'd be. Besides, since I don't value people conditionally or have insecurity issues, I feel no need for a sense of superiority over others. Equality is more enjoyable. You are the only one concerned with those things.

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I'm not in the mood for this so please leave me be. Everytime you feel the need to "correct me" or stomp over what I am saying, try to identify it and don't do it.

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Actually, I'm not correcting you. That'd be a waste of time, you wouldn't listen anyway. I'm exposing the truth to others in response to your twisting and contorting, misuse of the victim card, etc. You are creating a misleading image of who I am and what I've done, and I won't tolerate such unfairness to me. It's pretty manipulative/deceptive. I think I've laid out enough evidence of the truth for others to catch on using their own judgment from here.

This entire discussion needs to stop, it's enough. It's time to let it go and move on.

:/

@Noir, you're a bull in a china shop. You have the finesse of a double amputee. I'm not going to reply to that last post because I was suggested that I ignore you, and I'm a good boy that obeys authority figures, but just wanted to mention a few things:

-You are probably not ESI. ESI's are much more careful with their wording and stepping on people's toe's, unless you are doing it on purpose (doesn't seem like it). I am not pleased that you are giving ESI a bad name, sullying the memory of Bertrand and Discojoe.
-You clearly devalue -Fi/+Fe (Hint; this is the base function of ESI).
-You didn't get ESI in the very effective sociotype.com test.

Why don't you post a picture so we can VI you?

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Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman

I've never been diagnosed with it, and I've never really suspected I had something like that. Unless being Ne ego counts, lol. And I do remember that Ne is your vulnerable function, so maybe that's why it's throwing you.

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Interesting. Are you seeing a connection there that I'm not seeing in this? Or just purposely veering off a bit?

I'm a bit weird in Socionics. The cognitive processes that are represented by Ne do make me REEEEE sometimes, lmaoo, but I'm odd in the sense that I tend to consider more alternatives than most people — at least when it's about people. Well, at least if they're on neutral/positive terms with me. I think I can probably become too hasty when someone gets on my bad side, which I probably should work on. I get what it's like to be misjudged all too well, so I try not to treat others like that. I've noticed from a few of my more recent interactions, however, that I've been too quick to judge if someone crosses the line with me or someone else that I feel compelled to defend. I'm always a work in progress, we're all human.

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Well, we're physical beings, and our entire understanding of the world is physical ("chemical," if you prefer). Spirituality and a sense of mysticism is itself rooted in chemical reactions -- wouldn't you agree? So is love, of course. If we don't listen to the chemical reactions in our minds, what should we listen to? How could we listen at all?

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Not sure we're on the same page, need to clarify. How are you defining spiritual here?

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I don't see why "limerence" is necessarily unhealthy, either. Having a clear sense of purpose feels good, and inspires great actions. Of course your purpose can be misguided, but a purpose motivated by love doesn't sound so bad -- probably better than most alternatives, I'd say.

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One resource explains that the neurochemical cocktail can create addiction. It's an extreme obsession. About 85% of a person's day can revolve around the object of their affection. It can result in stalking, depression, suicidality, all sorts of things. How you experience interactions with the person has the capacity to make or break your day…or life. Most people would feel bad if the object of our affections rejected us, but it wouldn't normally evoke suicidal ideation. It may resemble certainty about what they want, but actually, once the limerence is over, the relationship almost always ends. The limerence causes you to ignore red flags because you project your own fantasy onto them. You can think you're compatible when you really aren't in reality, because of that fantasy. Once someone wakes up from it, they realize it wasn't all they thought it was. It also takes them away from reality, so that they're caught up in trying to revolve their life around someone who might not even reciprocate their desires, instead of building their life up in realistic ways. Even if there is reciprocation, it's something you build your life around only for it to eventually die off.

I want to be clear, my intention is not to rail against the contents of the original post, nor the user behind them. My intention is to caution people that limerence is not something that can safely be normalized, and this thread runs the risk of normalizing it. That can be damaging to peoples' real, actual lives. I can't sit back silently and say nothing when I see that. In my mind's eye, that would be like seeing a crowd standing in front of an oncoming train, knowing they don't see it, and then saying nothing to them. Never warning that they should move out of the way. I'm trying to protect others from a risk that I see — including OP, if they will receive it.

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Originally Posted by roger557

@Noir, you're a bull in a china shop. You have the finesse of a double amputee. I'm not going to reply to that last post because I was suggested that I ignore you, and I'm a good boy that obeys authority figures, but just wanted to mention a few things:

-You are probably not ESI. ESI's are much more careful with their wording and stepping on people's toe's, unless you are doing it on purpose (doesn't seem like it). I am not pleased that you are giving ESI a bad name, sullying the memory of Bertrand and Discojoe.
-You clearly devalue -Fi/+Fe (Hint; this is the base function of ESI).
-You didn't get ESI in the very effective sociotype.com test.

Why don't you post a picture so we can VI you?

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Pictures:

https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca88...DlsAwHXPO2ig_I
https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca88...YiP0PI5Z47R5Vc
https://c.tenor.com/Wse74Lisbi0AAAAC...tural-dean.gifhttps://sta.sh/01k8kchwm42s

Okay... after this very productive intermission... you guys (gammas and anybody else who wants to answer) can resume describing how do you experience limerence, and what has come of it in your life.


I wanted to add that being reciprocally limerent with someone is one of the most terrific things that a person can experience.

I define limerance as an infatuation with someone which is not returned. As such, it sucks.

My biggest problem with limerance is that it indicates that the person with the feelings is living in a fantasy world that is resistant to reality, and this can have some detrimental results.

Person A: "I love you so much. Why don't you love me back?"
Person B: "Who the fuck are you? Get away from me, you psycho."

In my opinion, it is much better to make a small investment in a relationship and then wait to see if it is reciprocated.
You lay down a brick, and if the other person lays down a brick, you continue. Maybe, after awhile, you have a house you can live in.

But if you are laying down all the bricks, you're an idiot. The other person might think you are building a prison for them.

As for your reference to Identifying Your Quadra Through Ideal Sex (https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...ough-ideal-sex), my opinion is informed by my recent constant contact with a female ESI lesbian.

Despite her playing on a different ball team, we have pretty thoroughly Dualized, just without the sex. Nevertheless, to Gammas, "Work is Life", and when we were working every day together and discovering that we really like each other and that we work together fantastically well, she reached a point where she said she needed a break.
I told her that descriptions of our Duality indicate that our relations are characterized by 3-4 days of high intensity "on", followed by several days off, and it was OK with me if she felt like working that way because I needed a break, too. She readily agreed.

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Originally Posted by Noir

Interesting. Are you seeing a connection there that I'm not seeing in this? Or just purposely veering off a bit?

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A connection to Ne? Sure. It's interesting you see what I'm saying as veering off. I've been trying to respond to nearly everything you've said. Could you point out where I seem to be steering off track?

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Not sure we're on the same page, need to clarify. How are you defining spiritual here?

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Wouldn't you agree the spiritual is ultimately physical? But I don't believe that invalidates the concept of spirituality; only the late Christian idea of it as something separate from physical existence. I think I'd define spirituality as a sense of obligation to something greater than yourself. Someone else can likely come up with a better one, but I hope that'll suffice for now.

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One resource explains that the neurochemical cocktail can create addiction. It's an extreme obsession. About 85% of a person's day can revolve around the object of their affection. It can result in stalking, depression, suicidality, all sorts of things. How you experience interactions with the person has the capacity to make or break your day…or life.

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When people try to reduce life to "nothing but" certain patterns of interaction of chemicals and electricity, it's important to understand that they are technically right, but this doesn't really tell us much that's ultimately important. As humans, when we interact with the world and with each other, we don't generally deal directly with the basic chemicals and electrical impulses in the brain. We aren't naturally capable of this. As conscious people we deal with abstractions designed for our use, but abstractions which bear an actual relationship with reality. An example of this is using a desktop environment on a computer. When you click an icon, or drag a representation of a folder around, what you appear to do is heavily abstracted from the actual interaction of EM fields in your computer -- and what happens in a modern computer on this level is much too complicated for any single human to understand -- but at the same time you are interacting with the computer, and changing it to your will.

Taking this analogy further, when someone says a certain mental condition or emotion is the product of something like a "chemical imbalance," this is analogous to saying any problem you might experience with a computer is due to an "electrical imbalance." It's not wrong, in the sense that electricity isn't flowing in the way you wish it would go, but 90% of the time, you're facing a software issue, or even user inexperience. In these cases you're capable of changing the issue via the abstractions provided to you to do so -- say by changing a setting or configuration file. In the same way, most mental issues are "software issues," in the sense that consciousness possesses the means to engage them on its own terms. But this is the default way of understanding the world -- virtually any child will develop a conscious approach to life more or less naturally, but no one has an intuitive knowledge of chemistry or electromagnetism; these have to be studied. So when people talk about how our thoughts, and emotions, and whatnot, are "nothing but" chemical reactions, the intent is usually to make you doubt your intuitive understanding of life, and this is usually unjustified.

Not to say that there aren't cases where the "hardware" is damaged, for instance in cases of physical trauma to the brain. In these cases the conscious mind usually isn't capable of addressing issues with its own understanding (perhaps because its ability to understand has been damaged). But this is relatively rare, to begin with, and, more importantly, even in these kinds of cases, we don't yet possess the scientific knowledge needed to repair damage of this kind. We have drugs developed more or less by trial and error, that sometimes seem to alleviate symptoms, but usually it's only barely understood why those drugs have the effects they do or why the brain responds as it does. Understanding of the physical brain is still in very early stages. So even in cases of actual demonstrable physical damage, framing someone's psychological problems in terms of chemical reactions still isn't likely to do you much good most of the time.

Certain drugs we know have chemical effects on the brain that are known to compromise the ability of the conscious mind to break the addiction without external help. These are called chemical addictions. The idea of a "psychological addiction" doesn't stand on such firm footing. When you start talking about normal human interactions with the world or others in terms of chemical addictions, you're more or less denying the existence of the mind, seeing only the brain. So I think it's better to avoid that kind of talk as much as possible, and prefer to talk about why certain behaviors are good or bad in human, not in chemical, terms.

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people would feel bad if the object of our affections rejected us, but it wouldn't normally evoke suicidal ideation.

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Perhaps that's because most people don't feel their affection strongly enough?

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It may resemble certainty about what they want, but actually, once the limerence is over, the relationship almost always ends. The limerence causes you to ignore red flags because you project your own fantasy onto them. You can think you're compatible when you really aren't in reality, because of that fantasy. Once someone wakes up from it, they realize it wasn't all they thought it was. It also takes them away from reality, so that they're caught up in trying to revolve their life around someone who might not even reciprocate their desires, instead of building their life up in realistic ways. Even if there is reciprocation, it's something you build your life around only for it to eventually die off.

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Even if limerence is a fantasy, why not try to make that fantasy a reality? If you only let yourself be caught up in what actually exists, never allowing yourself to imagine what might, you won't ever really live.

Unfortunately, love tends to die (or perhaps what people believe to be love?). Easily 9/10 couples don't seem truly happy and loving with each other. In my book 'tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all.

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I want to be clear, my intention is not to rail against the contents of the original post, nor the user behind them. My intention is to caution people that limerence is not something that can safely be normalized, and this thread runs the risk of normalizing it. That can be damaging to peoples' real, actual lives. I can't sit back silently and say nothing when I see that. In my mind's eye, that would be like seeing a crowd standing in front of an oncoming train, knowing they don't see it, and then saying nothing to them. Never warning that they should move out of the way. I'm trying to protect others from a risk that I see — including OP, if they will receive it.

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Normal life is pretty boring, and most upcoming changes seem to be making it more so. If the choice is between sitting paralyzed in a padded room at an asylum, never experiencing anything meaningful, never choosing else for yourself, and between throwing yourself in front of a train, I would support the effort of anyone to throw themselves in front of that train, and join them myself. I don't see the physical extension of a spiritually crippled life as a worthwhile goal.

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Originally Posted by Noir

actually, once the limerence is over, the relationship almost always ends.

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It ends if the limerence "start up" effect is not followed. It doesn't have to end, unless one of the parties wishes it.

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The limerence causes you to ignore red flags because you project your own fantasy onto them. You can think you're compatible when you really aren't in reality, because of that fantasy.

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This is true in my experience, unfortunately. But as I've said before, each time I learned something or progressed my self-development in some way that I think God intended me to.

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Once someone wakes up from it, they realize it wasn't all they thought it was. It also takes them away from reality, so that they're caught up in trying to revolve their life around someone who might not even reciprocate their desires,

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Not in my case. In my cases, the feelings were reciprocated. Not reciprocated with limerence though; with limerence only one of the cases.

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instead of building their life up in realistic ways. Even if there is reciprocation, it's something you build your life around only for it to eventually die off.

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I believe strong in-love feelings can be rekindled with someone, but I'm not sure. It is an only one-time thing? Being in love surely insn't, but limerence might be. To be honest, it isn't that good being limerent. It's cool and all that to experience it once in your life, but being limerent in a long-term manner doesn't sound too good.

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My intention is to caution people that limerence is not something that can safely be normalized, and this thread runs the risk of normalizing it. That can be damaging to peoples' real, actual lives. I can't sit back silently and say nothing when I see that.

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You sound very SP. Limerence and being in love are the spice of life (at least, I bet, for sx types, and what I'm trying to deduce here, gammas too?).

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In my mind's eye, that would be like seeing a crowd standing in front of an oncoming train, knowing they don't see it, and then saying nothing to them. Never warning that they should move out of the way. I'm trying to protect others from a risk that I see — including OP, if they will receive it.

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Not sure I buy into this supposed "altruism" you purport to be motivating you. Are you sure this is why you are portraying limerence in such a bad light?

This hasn't gone well for me, perhaps because what I had in my 20s was not reciprocal limerence. For the first time in my life I had found someone who had similar hobbies/interests to me and I became hooked on us being a creative pair and starting a publication together.

When I couldn't stand the build up any longer and let my feelings be known to the person I was taken with, they told me "I think you've got the wrong end of the stick. You're a cool friend", and then watched me ugly sob before I could make my exit.

How I can tell that my experience is limerence is that communication between us will tend to be controlled - not allowed to stray beyond what my fantasy of the person will allow.

Another way to put this: if you are wary of reality piercing the beautiful vision you have of your life with the object of your affection, you are not really prepared to bring all of them into you. You willingly stay blind to aspects of them that don't meet your image.

Keeping interactions brief can be a way of allowing your imagination to complete the rest as you desire - and your limerence alive.

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Originally Posted by Noir

It's not something I tend to experience much anymore, and if I do, I fight the fuck out of it because I see it as a vulnerability and I can't stand experiencing it. It's highly unpleasant to me.

"Restoring forces," lmao what does that even mean? That seems like a terrible resource.

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It means to rest and build strength back up. We have a similar saying in Spanish. If you translate everything 1 to 1 from certain languages without adjusting it to context in English, you get confusing moments like this, and I'd go a step further to say It's possibly distorted some of our understanding of socionics...but that's for another thread


As for the topic at hand I share your opinion. I'm pretty sober when it comes to romance and relationships. Attraction I feel very strongly. Limerence on the other hand, sounds like what I've criticized in others for years, but now I finally have the word. In my opinion It's good to take sober and realistic note of what keeps the two individuals together...not to get wrapped up in fantasy.Once I have enough exposure to determin, not only that it's realistic to keep this thing going,but that we're both on the same page and headed in the same direction, then and only then can I develop love. Anything outside of that is just attraction

You Sp people scared away all the Sx firsts and none is posting about their limerence experiences :/

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Originally Posted by roger557

You Sp people scared away all the Sx firsts and none is posting about their limerence experiences :/

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I am doubtlessly Sx first, btw. Believe me, I wished I wasn't and tried not to be for years. Sx first doesn't mean diving head first into something psychologically unhealthy. I'm not sure why you refuse to listen to people saying it isn't healthy...

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Originally Posted by Noir

Not gonna lie or sugar coat, I think that's incredibly delusional. It's just chemicals in your brain doing things because you feel attracted, it's really not that deep. Lol, the person you experience limerence toward doesn't even always reciprocate interest, btw.

My life partner, with whom I have the mutual intention of marrying within the next few years and staying with for life, was not someone I experienced limerence with. Instead, we formed a genuine bond that is much deeper than limerence, aka puppy love, over years of time. The many douchebags who fucked me over, cheated on me, lied to me, abused me, etc. in the past before I became healthy, however, I did experience limerence with.

So...no offense, but from where I'm standing, you sound incredibly disconnected from actual social experiences — as though you just read about people while not actually being around them in RL.

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Oh hey, something I mentioned years ago here getting a thread! Limerence! Yeah, the chemicals in the head do things. However, knowing what I do now that whole "Marry each other in the next few years" is a red flag so large I'm mistaking it for the mushroom cloud resulting from the detonation of the Tsar Bomba! Just. Get. Engaged. NOW! If you're both that sure about it. If he's serious about you he won't have a problem putting a cheap ring on your finger to send that cultural message to any and all douchebags who get off on stealing another man's woman. Diamonds are for wives, not possible wives.

Hell, I'm part Irish and we have a bit of cultural relevance here. A Claddagh ring has four ways to wear it if you know what they mean. The right hand is for the casual/dating side. The truly and utterly single wear it with the point of the heart facing outward to signal they are totally open to love from all takers. Once you start dating someone seriously you face it inward yet still on the right hand to show you're "taken" as it were. At this stage Marriage is on the table and everyone looking towards you ought to know you are in a serious relationship with that end a very real possiblity.

Once you're engaged you switch it over to your left hand with the heart pointed outward because that tells the knowledgeable that you're really committed here. Unless one of you dies or does something truly and blatantly reprehensible it will progress to the final stage of actual marriage where you flip the ring one last time and point the heart inward. That's the equivalent of a Daimond Ring. Tells everyone that you are actually married and your heart is already taken for all eternity by someone else. Best they look elsewhere for romance.

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Originally Posted by roger557

You Sp people scared away all the Sx firsts and none is posting about their limerence experiences :/

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As an Sp/Sx type I can say I have experienced it twice. I think the targets of my drives were "So" primary types though so that's probably what drove them off. Sadly, not before I... Well, let's just say there are things I wish I knew then and thus would not have done to them what I did as now I know what we were both doing to each other, why we did it, and how that was a huge and righteous mess.

Protip: ONS's are bad. Don't engage in them period. Not just because of the STD risk but rather because of the issues that make them happen.

I did a terrible thing to them. And they also did a terrible thing to me but by and large the blame lies with me. I should have said no. I should have realized the magnitude of the sin I was committing, and yet I did not...

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Originally Posted by roger557

You Sp people scared away all the Sx firsts and none is posting about their limerence experiences :/

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I thought I was rather respectful In my post. I by no means want to scare them away. By all means speak! It might lead to the refining of my views and good conversation.

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Originally Posted by Noir

I am doubtlessly Sx first, btw. Believe me, I wished I wasn't and tried not to be for years. Sx first doesn't mean diving head first into something psychologically unhealthy. I'm not sure why you refuse to listen to people saying it isn't healthy...

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Is that you in the picture?

Okay, I will give some material (I was hesitant but here it goes) for all the viewers this thread has (it has at the moment 1000 views and it doesn't contain anything worthwhile; I guess there are a lot of shy gammas than want to read or post their experience and are hesitant, or they were scared away):

My two most important experiences with limerence:

1) It happened with an ESI-Fi girl. This was years ago in a college setting. I noticed that she was in love with me with my one time when I went to tell her something (I saw it in her eyes, and her behavior-- she avoided looking me in the eyes and gazed down so I could not read her). Take note this girl is sx/so (I'm sx/sp). This limerence manifested in totally avoiding the girl, while she was super horny (was making advances towards me even during class, one time even tried to turn me on when she went up to the chalkboard, in front of all the class, which I dissaproved. This is how crazy this girl became. Another time I was sitting in class behind her, but not close, like four rows or so, and she turned herself towards me and gave me a look... that could kill, with her sx/so eyes.. Take note that I was limerent towards her from the moment I saw she was infatuated with me, and when I am limerent, the functional workings of everyday living are almost impossible; limerence is a very strong vital happening for me that overtakes my behavior and thoughts (but I am a very controlled person, I'm probably the person with most self-control I know. I don't do anything stupid).

2)With the lesbian girl. Some girl I met on a lesbian place. This one is Sx/sp, and very probably gamma too, her behavior was very similar to mine. Strongest stuff I've ever felt, lasted about a month or so. My testicles got swollen and ached horribly (pardon the crassness but I want to document this down the most throrough as possible-- I actually got all red in the face while writing this). To be honest, I actually liked another girl from the lesbian place, but this girl showed up and bang!, we fell in love and all happened. Before I told her that I was feeling something, I could tell (I'm kinda perceptive, normally) that she also was feeling something, so I decided to expose it, confess, and give it a go. I had what I believe was "astral sex" with this girl; during the night when she was not around I suspect she was "thinking of me" (;)) and I got super aroused. The worst thing about this is not that she finally revealed herself to me that she had been as screwed with it as I had been when it was ending, and gave me the boot, but that I never even saw her face since she rejected sending me a picture of herself :(. I'm not even sure if she even saw me either, since the IRC program I used was buggy and I suspect she did not receive the picture I sent her. Strangest thing ever.


These are the most relevant of my 4 infatuation experiences because these girls are Sx first, so it was somewhat reciprocal. If you have any questions, ask (I reserve my right to answer them or not, though).

FYI, since roger created this thread for talk about gammas+limerence, I made a thread about limerence in general here: https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...3334-Limerence

It is his thread, and he didn't start it to discuss whether limerence is healthy, in all fairness.

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Originally Posted by roger557

Is that you in the picture?

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No, it was not. It's insanely unlikely that I will ever use my RL pics here in any way. I don't see a point in doing so. I get no benefit from it.

I'm pretty sure I have been limerent before and it has honestly thrown me off the whole thing because I'm not sure if I'm capable of anything better. It's a hell of a drug.

For me it's like crush->limerence->love where I haven't experienced the 3rd one but have the other 2.

Limerence feels like love, and it tries to convince you it is (it's most similar to romantic/passionate love), but it is incredibly negative for you.

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Limerence is unhealthy

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Is it always unhealthy?

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Originally Posted by Noir

No, it was not. It's insanely unlikely that I will ever use my RL pics here in any way. I don't see a point in doing so. I get no benefit from it.

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SEI-Fe

https://beeimg.com/images/p18286080022.gif

ESI-Se

https://beeimg.com/images/y06670084952.gif

SLI-Si (that's why I thought it could be you, also b/c it seems a homemade photo- SLI-Si 3w2 so/sp)

https://beeimg.com/images/t69646946042.gif

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Originally Posted by ouronis

I'm pretty sure I have been limerent before and it has honestly thrown me off the whole thing because I'm not sure if I'm capable of anything better

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you are and you should have told me you dog

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Originally Posted by roger557

SEI-Fe

https://beeimg.com/images/p18286080022.gif

ESI-Se

https://beeimg.com/images/y06670084952.gif

SLI-Si (that's why I thought it could be you, also b/c it seems a homemade photo- SLI-Si 3w2 so/sp)

https://beeimg.com/images/t69646946042.gif

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@roger557, SEIs and ESIs and SLIs all have 4D Si.

I orta know. I have one as a secretary, have dated the second, and married the third.

It makes my present dating a bit more challenging than it would be otherwise.

Truthfully, I get a lot of messages from SEIs on Match. None from SLIs or ESIs. With the latter, I have to initiate. I think the SEIs are more forward because their Duals are more awkward on social media and the SEIs need to be forward or they will be alone forever.

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Originally Posted by Kalinoche buenanoche

you are and you should have told me you dog

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I don't know if I am. I think I'm only capable of quick-burners.

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Originally Posted by roger557

SEI-Fe

https://beeimg.com/images/p18286080022.gif

ESI-Se

https://beeimg.com/images/y06670084952.gif

SLI-Si (that's why I thought it could be you, also b/c it seems a homemade photo- SLI-Si 3w2 so/sp)

https://beeimg.com/images/t69646946042.gif

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I think I get the "activity" relationship a bit better now. I may not want to marry that ESI, but holy hell do I want to go on an adventure with her. We may fuck or we may not but that's an irrelevant consideration. She wants me to join her on an adventure and I have no intention of refusing her. Fuck, look at her eyes. I'll have that jaded and disdainful look inverted by the end of this ;)

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Originally Posted by ouronis

I don't know if I am. I think I'm only capable of quick-burners.

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imo the good news is that there is a chance we don't know what love is, let alone deep love

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Originally Posted by Kalinoche buenanoche

imo the good news is that there is a chance we don't know what love is, let alone deep love

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Love is something you give to someone else. The more you do it, the better you get at it.

If you have other people in your life who can give you love, then you can get a head start, but you can learn to love at any time and to any extent.

At least, that’s what I believe.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by End

I think I get the "activity" relationship a bit better now.

I may not want to marry that ESI, but holy hell do I want to go on an adventure with her. We may fuck or we may not but that's an irrelevant consideration. She wants me to join her on an adventure and I have no intention of refusing her.

Fuck, look at her eyes. I'll have that jaded and disdainful look inverted by the end of this ;)

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@End, that's exactly how I feel towards female SEEs. Exactly.

But here is the problem with Activity. The functions of the two people overlap. They aren't fully separated, and unlike Duality where your partner is good at stuff and you know it and just defer to them, in Activity, you're both good in some of the same areas and, as @FreelancePoliceman has said, you end up stepping on each other's toes.

We all have "levers" which we use to try to influence other people. In the case of Duals, those levers are fully connected to the machinery inside the Dual; in people with non-Dual function positions, some of those levers are not connected and you end up frantically shifting some levers and nothing happens with the non-Dual.

Here are a couple examples of Activity relations.

I knew a beautiful (are there any other kind?) SEE who was into Astrology and I told her that Socionics was a much better system. She showed me a picture of a guy she was thinking of dating. He looked like a sloppy LSI-Se and I told her that he wasn't an ILI Dual. The next week, she was dating him. She heard what I said, but she wasn't going to take my advice.

I have a great ILI-Te buddy who married an ESI-Se. He's a tax attorney, she works for the city in the library and she gets right in the faces of the citizens who don't behave. But she's ESI, not SEE.
When they met, she was deep in debt but he married her anyway. She basically came on to him and was relentless, because Activity looks so great at first and is sooooo easy to start.
After a few years of his careful planning, they were out of debt. He had her on a budget where she could spend right up to what they could afford and still make the house payment and save for retirement, and it was very livable. But she wasn't going to listen to him.
He opened the mail one day and found a credit card bill for over $10k, and it was growing at some ridiculous rate. He thought it was a mistake, so he called the credit card company and they said, no mistake, she's had it for a long time and has only been making the minimum payments on it.

He went ballistic. He called me to vent. He was shouting, which he never does. I was a bit worried.
"I didn't even know she had this account! What the hell! She never told me about it! It's over ten. Thousand. Dollars!"

"Can you sell some of the stuff she bought?"

"NO! SHE DOESN'T HAVE ANYTHING! SHE CAN'T TELL ME WHERE THE MONEY WENT! SHE HAS NOTHING TO SHOW FOR IT!"

He was shouting into the phone like she'd just stabbed him in the back, and I was getting scared for their marriage.

"I'M GOING TO HAVE TO TAKE OUT A SECOND MORTGAGE TO GET OUT FROM UNDER THE HIGH INTEREST RATE."

And then he said, more quietly, "And she hid this from me."

Well. OK. He's good at Ni and Te, but he's not an LIE. They are still together, but when I visit them, they spend time on opposite sides of the house.

I worked with an ESI-Se Dual this summer, and let me say, she was an expert at spending money. She burned through over $40k in three months and was just getting started, but when I told her that I was running low on cash in the penny jar, she stopped spending. Just stopped. And I had given her my credit card, so I know this was true.

The difference was that when I spoke, she listened. And when she speaks, I listen. I don't try to second-guess her, or say to myself, "Oh, she says this but I know better." No. We listen to each other and check in often to make sure that we're on the same page.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam Strange

@End, that's exactly how I feel towards female SEEs. Exactly.

But here is the problem with Activity. The functions of the two people overlap. They aren't fully separated, and unlike Duality where your partner is good at stuff and you know it and just defer to them, in Activity, you're both good in some of the same areas and, as @FreelancePoliceman has said, you end up stepping on each other's toes.

We all have "levers" which we use to try to influence other people. In the case of Duals, those levers are fully connected to the machinery inside the Dual; in people with non-Dual function positions, some of those levers are not connected and you end up frantically shifting some levers and nothing happens with the non-Dual.

Here are a couple examples of Activity relations.

I knew a beautiful (are there any other kind?) SEE who was into Astrology and I told her that Socionics was a much better system. She showed me a picture of a guy she was thinking of dating. He looked like a sloppy LSI-Se and I told her that he wasn't an ILI Dual. The next week, she was dating him. She heard what I said, but she wasn't going to take my advice.

I have a great ILI-Te buddy who married an ESI-Se. He's a tax attorney, she works for the city in the library and she gets right in the faces of the citizens who don't behave. But she's ESI, not SEE.
When they met, she was deep in debt but he married her anyway. She basically came on to him and was relentless, because Activity looks so great at first and is sooooo easy to start.
After a few years of his careful planning, they were out of debt. He had her on a budget where she could spend right up to what they could afford and still make the house payment and save for retirement, and it was very livable. But she wasn't going to listen to him.
He opened the mail one day and found a credit card bill for over $10k, and it was growing at some ridiculous rate. He thought it was a mistake, so he called the credit card company and they said, no mistake, she's had it for a long time and has only been making the minimum payments on it.

He went ballistic. He called me to vent. He was shouting, which he never does. I was a bit worried.
"I didn't even know she had this account! What the hell! She never told me about it! It's over ten. Thousand. Dollars!"

"Can you sell some of the stuff she bought?"

"NO! SHE DOESN'T HAVE ANYTHING! SHE CAN'T TELL ME WHERE THE MONEY WENT! SHE HAS NOTHING TO SHOW FOR IT!"

He was shouting into the phone like she'd just stabbed him in the back, and I was getting scared for their marriage.

"i'M GOING TO HAVE TO TAKE OUT A SECOND MORTGAGE TO GET OUT FROM UNDER THE HIGH INTEREST RATE."

And then he said, more quietly, "And she hid this from me."

Well. OK. He's good at Ni and Te, but he's not an LIE. They are still together, but when I visit them, they spend time on opposite sides of the house.

I worked with an ESI-Se this summer, and let me say, she was an expert at spending money. She burned through over $40k in three months and was just getting started, but when I told her that I was running low on cash in the penny jar, she stopped spending. Just stopped. And I had given her my credit card, so I know this was true.

The difference was that when I spoke, she listened. And when she speaks, I listen. I don't try to second-guess her, or say to myself, "Oh, she says this but I know better." No. We listen to each other and check in often to make sure that we're on the same page.

---

This is the problems with most Fi lead I know (Including EII). They do not spend money on purpose, they don't even know why their money gone. I realize that they spend most of their money for alot of small little things instead of bying one or two expensive thing. They never count, so they think they just use a little of their money..

SEE is a little different. They spend money on purpose. They love luxury stuff, and can spend alot to buy them, but they also more aware of their own money than ESI. They can plan saving money to buy the expensive thing they want.

@End, I just thought of a third example of Activity relations going wrong.

The month I paid off my house, I bought another one and rented it out. I hired a property manager and the place lost money for a while, but making money on rental properties requires that you get in there and get it done right now, and now it's close to break-even after a huge amount of effort from me every year.*

I know this ILI guy who is brilliant. Computational fluid dynamics brilliant. He's married to a very nice ESI. I've met her at their home.
She wants him to make more money, but he's not good at asking for more money from his job. So she told him to buy a second house that they could rent out.
He called me and asked me what I thought of him becoming a landlord, and I advised him against it. It requires fast responses and plunging toilets at 2AM in the winter, and I just thought that he could do better investing in stocks.
But, the ESI lives with him and I don't, so he bought a rental house two years ago. He borrowed a lot to make it both livable and beautiful, but he can't find renters. It's still empty after two years. It is a financial disaster of astounding magnitude.
He called me to ask me to stay in that house when I'm visiting that city. He said I could pay him rent with a check and he'd refund all my money in cash, just so he could claim the house as a rental on his taxes. (This is not legal, but he doesn't expect to be caught. However, I do, so I politely declined. I do not need any more trouble with the IRS.)
You see, he's much better at Ni/Te taxes than he is at going out and grabbing people off the street to live in his house.

I blame his ESI wife for pushing him into doing something that he's not good at. She was expecting an LIE. An SEE would never have done that to him.

*

Despite what you might think, landlords do not typically make any money on the rent itself. All of the rent, and often more than the rent, goes towards paying the debt payment (the mortgage from the bank) plus the maintenance costs of maintaining the property. My rental has an improved bathroom that cost, after professional improvements and city inspections, over $27k. And it's a very small bathroom.
Landlords make money on property appreciation, which is why the rule for buying rental property is Location, location, location. In a place where the value of the property doesn't rise, the landlord is near break-even or is losing money.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam Strange

@End, that's exactly how I feel towards female SEEs. Exactly.

But here is the problem with Activity. The functions of the two people overlap. They aren't fully separated, and unlike Duality where your partner is good at stuff and you know it and just defer to them, in Activity, you're both good in some of the same areas and, as @FreelancePoliceman has said, you end up stepping on each other's toes.

We all have "levers" which we use to try to influence other people. In the case of Duals, those levers are fully connected to the machinery inside the Dual; in people with non-Dual function positions, some of those levers are not connected and you end up frantically shifting some levers and nothing happens with the non-Dual.

Here are a couple examples of Activity relations.

I knew a beautiful (are there any other kind?) SEE who was into Astrology and I told her that Socionics was a much better system. She showed me a picture of a guy she was thinking of dating. He looked like a sloppy LSI-Se and I told her that he wasn't an ILI Dual. The next week, she was dating him. She heard what I said, but she wasn't going to take my advice.

I have a great ILI-Te buddy who married an ESI-Se. He's a tax attorney, she works for the city in the library and she gets right in the faces of the citizens who don't behave. But she's ESI, not SEE.
When they met, she was deep in debt but he married her anyway. She basically came on to him and was relentless, because Activity looks so great at first and is sooooo easy to start.
After a few years of his careful planning, they were out of debt. He had her on a budget where she could spend right up to what they could afford and still make the house payment and save for retirement, and it was very livable. But she wasn't going to listen to him.
He opened the mail one day and found a credit card bill for over $10k, and it was growing at some ridiculous rate. He thought it was a mistake, so he called the credit card company and they said, no mistake, she's had it for a long time and has only been making the minimum payments on it.

He went ballistic. He called me to vent. He was shouting, which he never does. I was a bit worried.
"I didn't even know she had this account! What the hell! She never told me about it! It's over ten. Thousand. Dollars!"

"Can you sell some of the stuff she bought?"

"NO! SHE DOESN'T HAVE ANYTHING! SHE CAN'T TELL ME WHERE THE MONEY WENT! SHE HAS NOTHING TO SHOW FOR IT!"

He was shouting into the phone like she'd just stabbed him in the back, and I was getting scared for their marriage.

"I'M GOING TO HAVE TO TAKE OUT A SECOND MORTGAGE TO GET OUT FROM UNDER THE HIGH INTEREST RATE."

And then he said, more quietly, "And she hid this from me."

Well. OK. He's good at Ni and Te, but he's not an LIE. They are still together, but when I visit them, they spend time on opposite sides of the house.

I worked with an ESI-Se Dual this summer, and let me say, she was an expert at spending money. She burned through over $40k in three months and was just getting started, but when I told her that I was running low on cash in the penny jar, she stopped spending. Just stopped. And I had given her my credit card, so I know this was true.

The difference was that when I spoke, she listened. And when she speaks, I listen. I don't try to second-guess her, or say to myself, "Oh, she says this but I know better." No. We listen to each other and check in often to make sure that we're on the same page.

---

And as you'd expect this is where my new obsession kicks in. Attachment issues. The ESI hid that from him because she feared he'd hate her for it and abandon her. In so doing it became a self-fulfilling prophecy. Had she just mentioned it up front and had confidence that he would not reject or abandon her if she did the problem would have been minor.

How his thought process likely would have went had she been honest from the start: Damnit. Another complication. Thankfully you mentioned it now instead of later so I can compensate and adapt. If I found out about this a year or two from now, well, all my current plans would get pretty fucked and I would have interpreted this as an outright betrayal of my trust. Didn't you know I love you? Didn't you trust that I love you? You don't hide shit like this from people you love as deeply as you claim you love me and by God do I love you to that degree and more. I wouldn't put in this much effort for someone I deemed unworthy (and trust you me, most everyone else is). Yet you sabotaged my efforts from the start because you, deep down, didn't trust me. You and everyone else might mistake me for some cold calculating robot that's just using you but I've shown you I'm not! I care, I love, I feel a thousand times more strongly than I give any evidence towards in regard to the outside world and you of all people should know that!

This assumes he's healthy in the attachment department of course. At least he likely won't face divorce if he is. Healthy males seem to be pretty much immune to divorce by unhealthy females because they seem to pick up on that and know that healthy men are literally the best thing possible for their potential children. This is also why two unhealthy people do just fine until a kid enters the picture. Then the woman notices the father isn't healthily attaching to her kids and is hurting them thereby and starts to hate the dude she's wed to out of the blue. Hurt a woman's own kids in any way if said woman isn't a sociopath... yeah, bad idea even if you aren't even trying or intending to.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam Strange

@End, I just thought of a third example of Activity relations going wrong.

The month I paid off my house, I bought another one and rented it out. I hired a property manager and the place lost money for a while, but making money on rental properties requires that you get in there and get it done right now, and now it's close to break-even after a huge amount of effort from me every year.*

I know this ILI guy who is brilliant. Computational fluid dynamics brilliant. He's married to a very nice ESI. I've met her at their home.
She wants him to make more money, but he's not good at asking for more money from his job. So she told him to buy a second house that they could rent out.
He called me and asked me what I thought of him becoming a landlord, and I advised him against it. It requires fast responses and plunging toilets at 2AM in the winter, and I just thought that he could do better investing in stocks.
But, the ESI lives with him and I don't, so he bought a rental house two years ago. He borrowed a lot to make it both livable and beautiful, but he can't find renters. It's still empty after two years. It is a financial disaster of astounding magnitude.
He called me to ask me to stay in that house when I'm visiting that city. He said I could pay him rent with a check and he'd refund all my money in cash, just so he could claim the house as a rental on his taxes. (This is not legal, but he doesn't expect to be caught. However, I do, so I politely declined. I do not need any more trouble with the IRS.)
You see, he's much better at Ni/Te taxes than he is at going out and grabbing people off the street to live in his house.

I blame his ESI wife for pushing him into doing something that he's not good at. She was expecting an LIE. An SEE would never have done that to him.

*

Despite what you might think, landlords do not typically make any money on the rent itself. All of the rent, and often more than the rent, goes towards paying the debt payment (the mortgage from the bank) plus the maintenance costs of maintaining the property. My rental has an improved bathroom that cost, after professional improvements and city inspections, over $27k. And it's a very small bathroom.
Landlords make money on property appreciation, which is why the rule for buying rental property is Location, location, location. In a place where the value of the property doesn't rise, the landlord is near break-even or is losing money.

---

You are feeding me data at a good pace recently. I like that.

I'd have told her that it was fine if we got another rental property but she's clearly the better manager so that'd be on her. She gets to be the one to plunge the toilets and the like. If she's fully OK with that than yeah, I'll take out that loan and do as she request. Otherwise we're spending the excess money on precious metals or crypto (depending on which the particular ILI in question was more confident in in regards to their knowledge. As for me, precious metals if you must ask).

Also, you're damn right you don't fuck with the IRS. He is correct on the odds being low but he's failing to see how bad it gets if you just so happen to "lose" that X-percent chance roll. It's Russian roulette with an X-shot revolver aimed at the head. Yeah, the odds are against it pretty hard but if it lands, you're fucking dead. I'm guessing his Sp instinct is the one he lets slide (as So is for me).

Finally, sales and persuasion is a thing that has a lot of study behind them. This very field plays a role in it as well. Any type can learn how to be more persuasive and thus learn how to be good at sales. Any and all types can ABC (Always Be Closing). How they do it, however, is unique to them. Like writing, illustration, or any other artform, it's an art, a craft. Mastery is within the grasp of everyone, but they must first put in the effort and time...

To assume anyone or any type is just gonna be instantly or innately good at something is foolish. They're likely to be, but that doesn't mean they will be.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kalinoche buenanoche

imo the good news is that there is a chance we don't know what love is, let alone deep love

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Yeah whenever somebody describes it, I'm like "I'm way too selfish for that"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam Strange

But here is the problem with Activity. The functions of the two people overlap. They aren't fully separated, and unlike Duality where your partner is good at stuff and you know it and just defer to them, in Activity, you're both good in some of the same areas and, as @FreelancePoliceman has said, you end up stepping on each other's toes.

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Mind clarifying further what some of the things that in the case of ESI and ILI, both are good at? Or pointing me to the pertinent post of F.P. if it's easy to find?
I've noticed a competitive dynamic in an ESI-ILI friendship, so I'm curious.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam Strange

The difference was that when I spoke, she listened. And when she speaks, I listen. I don't try to second-guess her, or say to myself, "Oh, she says this but I know better." No. We listen to each other and check in often to make sure that we're on the same page.

---

I totally agree from my family relationships with duals.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wonderwoman

Mind clarifying further what some of the things that in the case of ESI and ILI, both are good at? Or pointing me to the pertinent post of F.P. if it's easy to find?
I've noticed a competitive dynamic in an ESI-ILI friendship, so I'm curious.

I totally agree from my family relationships with duals.

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@wonderwoman, I think you'll get competition anytime you have functions which are not in a Dual arrangement. I tend to compete with everyone, but the closer a person is to my ESI Duals, the less I compete with them.

When I first started working with an ESI-Se artist, I made the mistake of trying to influence the artwork she was doing for me. Neither of us had done this before, so she asked me what kind of art I liked, and I gave her some broad ranges and she picked the area that interested her. Then she started sketching and asked my opinion of the sketches. Surprisingly, we agreed on which ones were the most promising.

Then, I made a mistake. I tried to tell her which colors should go where, and her artwork got worse. After a few rounds of this, I realized that I needed to keep my hands off her creativity and not try to influence her in her areas of expertise. When I did this, her art got much better.

But if an ILI designs something, I can look at it and see where it can be improved. And my suggestions will actually improve the design, but the ILI will not appreciate the interference. He's looking for an SEE to tell him he's a genius, not an LIE to tell him that his design won't work outside of his theoretical world. It's a delicately balanced line you have to walk with non-Duals.

My reference to F.P. might have been wrong; it might have been @Rebelondeck who said that non-Duals step on each other's toes. I can't find the reference, but I'm sure he'd be happy to elaborate.

As for what ESIs and ILIs are both good at, they are both good at being introverts and wanting the other person to initiate, and being suspicious of other people's motives. Sharing traits like this makes it appear to them that they will have a lot in common, but what actually happens is that both of them sit in the room and wait for the other person to initiate some activity.

Unless something forces them to go out and do something together. A schedule of hiking, going to the park, shopping for offbeat items, even going to museums or lectures. Then, they're OK. Until they get back inside.
So if an ESI and an ILI are going to get along, they'd better have an itinerary of activities planned or they are going to be sitting in a room, staring at their phones.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam Strange

I have a great ILI-Te buddy who married an ESI-Se. He's a tax attorney, she works for the city in the library and she gets right in the faces of the citizens who don't behave. But she's ESI, not SEE.
When they met, she was deep in debt but he married her anyway. She basically came on to him and was relentless, because Activity looks so great at first and is sooooo easy to start.
After a few years of his careful planning, they were out of debt. He had her on a budget where she could spend right up to what they could afford and still make the house payment and save for retirement, and it was very livable. But she wasn't going to listen to him.
He opened the mail one day and found a credit card bill for over $10k, and it was growing at some ridiculous rate. He thought it was a mistake, so he called the credit card company and they said, no mistake, she's had it for a long time and has only been making the minimum payments on it.

He went ballistic. He called me to vent. He was shouting, which he never does. I was a bit worried.
"I didn't even know she had this account! What the hell! She never told me about it! It's over ten. Thousand. Dollars!"

"Can you sell some of the stuff she bought?"

"NO! SHE DOESN'T HAVE ANYTHING! SHE CAN'T TELL ME WHERE THE MONEY WENT! SHE HAS NOTHING TO SHOW FOR IT!"

He was shouting into the phone like she'd just stabbed him in the back, and I was getting scared for their marriage.

"I'M GOING TO HAVE TO TAKE OUT A SECOND MORTGAGE TO GET OUT FROM UNDER THE HIGH INTEREST RATE."

And then he said, more quietly, "And she hid this from me."

Well. OK. He's good at Ni and Te, but he's not an LIE. They are still together, but when I visit them, they spend time on opposite sides of the house.

I worked with an ESI-Se Dual this summer, and let me say, she was an expert at spending money. She burned through over $40k in three months and was just getting started, but when I told her that I was running low on cash in the penny jar, she stopped spending. Just stopped. And I had given her my credit card, so I know this was true.

The difference was that when I spoke, she listened. And when she speaks, I listen. I don't try to second-guess her, or say to myself, "Oh, she says this but I know better." No. We listen to each other and check in often to make sure that we're on the same page.

---

What a sad story. For some reason I can imagine being the ESI here and being afraid to tell the ILI about what's truly going on, but feeling more comfortable telling an LIE.

Another issue I've noticed in ILI-ESI relations happens when the ESI is working for or with on an academic project, and the ILI doesn't protect the ESI from an excess of Ne, simplifying the Ni ideas through Te like an LIE would. It's really frustrating because I know the ILI finds my skills useful (mainly that I handle details he'd rather not bother with), and I don't criticize him for his lack of Fe delivery in classes, so I'm like 'why you keep hitting me in the polr?' Fortunately, the working relationship is temporary and it's coming to a close soon.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wonderwoman

What a sad story. For some reason I can imagine being the ESI here and being afraid to tell the ILI about what's truly going on, but feeling more comfortable telling an LIE.

---

If an ESI spent a large amount of money, my response would be to say "How much of it can we recover without spending more resources on this than we'd get back?", and "No problem. I'll find more money", and then I'd try to work with the ESI to ensure that it didn't happen again.

This exact scenario played out with my LSI ex-GF once, and my response was to just mentally move on and fill the money bucket up again.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wonderwoman

Another issue I've noticed in ILI-ESI relations happens when the ESI is working for or with on an academic project, and the ILI doesn't protect the ESI from an excess of Ne, simplifying the Ni ideas through Te like an LIE would. It's really frustrating because I know the ILI finds my skills useful (mainly that I handle details he'd rather not bother with), and I don't criticize him for his lack of Fe delivery in classes, so I'm like 'why you keep hitting me in the polr?' Fortunately, the working relationship is temporary and it's coming to a close soon.

---

This is interesting. I thought that the ESI protected the LIE from the excesses of his Ne.
I was talking to an ESI about possible futures, because I really have no idea most of the time how to set a value on my wants. I want X, and I want Y, but I don't know if I can make a profit doing Y but I've wanted Y for years and I can't tell if Y or even X would be better or worse overall compared to what I'm doing now.
If X and Y were purely money questions, I'd have zero problem deciding between them. But they involve estimations of my future happiness on those two paths, and happiness is uncharted territory for me.

The ESI didn't try to choose for me, she just asked me some questions about this and that, and they helped me a lot in thinking about the problem in practical terms and in setting some priorities. She was turning my "Ne - everything plus the kitchen sink" into "Ni - just one best plan."


But now that I think of it, the ESI is always doing something to take care of my well-being, like improving the house or making me a healthy meal, so she's helping me with my Si-PoLR. So maybe I'm helping her in some way that I'm not consciously aware of with her Ne-PoLR.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam Strange

So maybe I'm helping her in some way that I'm not consciously aware of with her Ne-PoLR.

---

Have you ever helped an ESI to figure out how to turn their dreams into some reality -- if so, you will find yourself not getting paralyzed by the Ne endless paths out there but demystifying them. Ne demo. We find it SUPER helpful and it calms our mind enough to start taking steps when we might've been in inaction. But more casual examples could just be exposing the ESI to things that it turns out they like and/or find useful, but wouldn't have bothered to look into due to distrust of invisible potential. For the ESI who now uses these items in her quotidian existence, she feels that she is 'leveling up' in life -- having access to things she wouldn't have tried on her own -- so it's quite pleasant.

edit: Maybe it's an exaggeration to say that Ne demo calms our minds. That's probably more Ni creative, but I'm certain that the coverage of Ne helps us, also, to get to that Ni best plan that we want. Pretty nice how humans can help each other with their problems by truly listening and using their strengths...