How and why most ILI's aren't Narcissists

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09-24-2021, 04:42 AM
End

How and why most ILI's aren't Narcissists

That last thread got toxic and closed before I got to put in my own two cents so here it is. From a hardcore theistic, humble, and most certainly not Narcissistic ILI.

I get how we give off the impression and I will admit that the more broken we are the more likely we are to retreat into that kind of mindset, but we won't really mean it. It's a "cope" as it were. A cope based off of bigger problems we are all universally victim to at this point but that just gets me talking about that issue I keep bringing up because it really is that pervasive and relevant.

ILI's with big attachment issues tend to retreat into narcissism/solipsism. I mean look at it from our point of view. We are basically Nostradamus tier (if he actually called shit correctly by intention) prophets most of the time. If you want to know what's probably gonna happen next in any context a friendly ILI that likes you and wants to see you succeed is your best bet. We can tell how, when and probably also why... but only if we see you as worth our time and your advancement as a benefit to us somehow.

We ain't the classical "villain" type for nothing after all. Villains tend to think as we do. But that's only if they don't know themselves very well. Hell, I'll give you all an example with myself.

I used to be totally onboard with the actual misogynistic crowd. To call a woman a bitch was to do a disservice to female dogs because at least they were loyal and those hoes were anything but. Then I learned about Attachment issues and I got the true reason as to why sluts/whores did what they did/do. It really does reduce even the likes of me to tears. It's so horrible I have to fight against the urge to cry when I see yet another victim of this modern world as I pass through the grocery store...

I will say one other thing I think people don't seem to get here. People seem to think ILI's are essentially robots incapable of deep emotion. That's just the façade we show the world. When we attend the funeral of our Mother/Brother/Dearest Friend we don't/won't cry. We already have in that case, the instant we saw that they were likely to pass we cried then. Our tears had already been shed well before the viewing. Some understand this, others not. The former don't give us shit, the latter tend to get held back by the former. At least some people understand...
09-24-2021, 10:53 AM
Rebelondeck

Narcissism isn't related to type. More than any other temperament, Ips seem to believe in the validity of the information that they have acquired and honed over the years; some will go to great lengths to protect these conceptions. I've likened their approach to life as living in castles of beliefs which they often feel is being besieged by outsiders so they often have the drawbridge up. These defensive natures coupled with a react-first-discuss-later attitude can sometimes be misinterpreted as narcissistic. Also, many IXIs have very different perceptions of the world so this can exacerbate their siege mentalities but unlike IEIs, ILIs don't usually keep them in the closet. :content:

a.k.a. I/O
09-24-2021, 02:13 PM
Wavebury

Not sure if certain types are more prone to narcissism than others, every type has its pitfalls though, if not narcisissim then it's something else...

In any case, even if certain types are more prone to narcissism than others (like Se base possibly) it doesn't mean that everyone of that type is narcissistic, more that the narcissism tends to come out when unhealthy. But like I said all types have their pitfalls, "nicer" types like SEI may have some other issues when unhealthy, not necessarily narcissism.
09-24-2021, 02:41 PM
EUDAEMONIUM

I think the Fi HA of ILIs can come as unnecessarily biting and stubbornly judgemental. But ILIs can also be right a lot of the time, they may not want to acknowledge that the truth can be painful and sometimes needs to be obfuscated.
09-24-2021, 06:52 PM
Shazaam

Thanks everybody for keeping the discussion constructive and not so toxic. Don't have to resort to so many personal attacks to get your point across lol.

I think sadly many people are an asshole this way- or maybe like 'society at large.' If you are cold, logical and dont show emotion you are viewed as a sociopathic asshole- OTOH if you show the tiniest bit of feeling or genuine emotion you are being manipulative or an oversensitive non-alpha male pussy etc.

This happened a long time ago when I was like 16 lol but after being bullied once it made me cry naturally- and this jerk-ish dude (actually ironically enough he was probably a Gamma NT type but that's beside the point I swear!) thought I was being "manipulative" - but I wasn't- people were just being CUNTS :reallymad: and it made me cry and I'm a F type so maybe I can't hide it that well like some douchey logical businessman can? If you are easily manipulated over my genuine tears like some fucking easily influenced pussy- how is that my fault even more? Jesus Christ.

It probably comes from the fact Fe-in-a-vacuum really is manipulative at times- and if you just sit there with no expression when something ~*~ dramatic ~*~ is happening it does look aloof/cold/Dahmer-esque so I guess that's where these crude and offensive assumptions come from.

btw me being a typical diplomatic IEI here but I don't think it's just LIEs/ILIs being viewed in a negative light. I think the whole point of types sometimes it can be these punching bags or scapegoats for all these negative traits people don't like in others that some people might naturally be more suspecitible, that are exaggerated out of a sense of one's own tolerance or personal boundaries. Sadly the whole point of being a type is that you are setting yourself up to be easily mocked and made fun of no matter what it is- I guess it's sorta like what the enneagram is supposed to be. The whole point is to *not* have a type, or have a type super hard to figure out- and act in a way where you transcend type expectations.

like in Buddhism it's kinda like the concept of "nothing" and how in nothingness there is transendence and nirvana etc.
09-24-2021, 07:34 PM
EUDAEMONIUM
I think Narcissism is overblown.
Quote:
What are narcissistic traits (characteristics)?

Healthcare providers diagnose NPD when you have at least five of the following characteristics:

Overinflated sense of self-importance.
Constant thoughts about being more successful, powerful, smart, loved or attractive than others.
Feelings of superiority and desire to only associate with high-status people.
Need for excessive admiration.
Sense of entitlement.
Willingness to take advantage of others to achieve goals.
Lack of understanding and consideration for other people’s feelings and needs.
Arrogant or snobby behaviors and attitudes.
https://my.clevelandclinic.org/healt...oms-and-causes

This is a survival mechanism. Anyone who ever amounted to anything great has these characteristics in some form or another.

I was put down all the time as a kid (by teachers, my parents, other kids) and the only person who believed in me then was myself, so I'm not really going to be ashamed of this.

If you think you need something more than what you """"deserve"""" you have an "overinflated sense of importance". Guess what? You get what you can take in the end and you are the one that determines what you deserve.
09-24-2021, 10:06 PM
Poptart

Accusations of “narcissism” are thrown around so much that the term has lost its impact.
09-25-2021, 01:42 AM
Aster

everyone’s ex seems to be a narcissist :p somehow I don’t think it’s that common.

different people have different levels of narcissism and there are even healthy levels…I doubt many people have full blown narcissism, as in Narcissistic Personality Disorder, even if they may seem like it on the outside, or have many traits that are associated.

But IMO, EIE narcissism seems the most dangerous. Or even Beta ST’s. Actually, just Betas in general.

actually, let me direct you to this thread :lol:
09-25-2021, 03:00 AM
Aquamarine

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poptart

Accusations of “narcissism” are thrown around so much that the term has lost its impact.

Yea, I think some people just deal with somebody that does bad things then they automatically think narcissist
09-25-2021, 05:00 AM
End

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eudaimonia

I think the Fi HA of ILIs can come as unnecessarily biting and stubbornly judgemental. But ILIs can also be right a lot of the time, they may not want to acknowledge that the truth can be painful and sometimes needs to be obfuscated.

Digging that profile pic. Griffith right? Sure looks like it.

You are right about that. That might be the sad truth about :Fi: fully realized. A dedication to the "truth" above all else may and probably does off put many.

Now that I think on it that's actually the case. Why was H.P. Lovecraft so influential and beloved only after he died alone in an attic? Why is it only now that so many dedicated atheists are acknowledging that there is a God because they have recently been exposed to/forced to acknowledge the fact that there's a devil?

:Fi: expressed as an HA is basically a person who has hit "fuck it" and/or an occurrence of what "creative expression" looks like once a given individual has well and truly run out of all their daily allowance of give a fucks. I can elaborate on that later consideration if y'all would like. Combined with attachment issues it makes quite a compelling theory :).
09-25-2021, 06:49 AM
Wavebury

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eudaimonia

I think Narcissism is overblown.

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/healt...oms-and-causes

This is a survival mechanism. Anyone who ever amounted to anything great has these characteristics in some form or another.

I was put down all the time as a kid (by teachers, my parents, other kids) and the only person who believed in me then was myself, so I'm not really going to be ashamed of this.

If you think you need something more than what you """"deserve"""" you have an "overinflated sense of importance". Guess what? You get what you can take in the end and you are the one that determines what you deserve.

I think you might be reading too much into these traits but I agree they are somewhat open to interpretation - which is why they are supposedly best left for professionals to use in diagnostics - though I'm not implying professionals are 100% objective either. Just that they have some training and background which should help them interpret these traits in a way that is geared to helping people solve their problems.

These traits don't seem healthy to me when I read them, even if they are present in powerful figures of any society. And ultimately, I'd say the person who has these traits suffers from them quite a bit. For example, need for excessive admiration is always going to cause one to be let down, because others won't admire you all the time. As Buddha said, he who lives by praise will die by critique. So you either expect others to praise you all the time, or surround yourself with people who praise you all the time hoping your influence will rub off on them, in either case, it doesn't seem to me like you'd be happy...
09-25-2021, 08:14 AM
Sanguine Miasma

Narcissism as in personality disorder [you can become totally shut off from a society] or delusion [I see that some schizophrenics have lots of narcissistic speech patterns] can be very detrimental.

So the above actually applies to a self and not to others to a same extent.

As per ILI. I don't think this trait as in state of mind is exclusive to a type although it can be as in a diagnostic classification. Especially per diagnostic classification ILI's are probably in the ball park most of the time (I assume that covert narcissism might be the case for some).
09-25-2021, 04:54 PM
VewyScawwyNawcissist

DENIAL

The fact the previous thread got toxic is proof of malignant shadow elements. They should be exposed and taken care of.

Convenientlyignore all the clues and factors coming together to form the truthand keep spreading ur delusions. ILIs dont own up to shit most of thetime. You keep misassesing everything and putting up only what u wantto believe in ur narrow scope of cognition that's about keepingurself surviving because u never saw anything higher in life.Delusions as replacement for meaning and truth. Betas keep swallowingshit. You keep dodging repsosnibility. Ur IEI/EII is the scapegoat.Just because u havent said anything doesnt mean u dont believe it.Just because u havent murderer someone YET doesnt mean u are not amurderer. Just because it's conveninet for you to deny the truth doesnot mean it's a lie. Keep biting the hand that feeds you you willstarve and that's what you deserve. In the end you'd delude urselfwith thinking that's exactly what you wanted.

Ittook you how many years to figure this out about women? How abouteverything else you're wrong about that's convenient to delude urselfwith. How about all the other issues you would never solve because itdoesn't help you in your narcissistic exploitation. Of course no oneis perfect but you take that as a justification for your personalinferiority. Why didn't I have that stupid delusion about whores uheld? ILI wants their friend to succeed on ILI's terms. What ILIs seeas success is not what is success. What ILIs see as good is not whatactually good. Yeah ILIs do have deep emotions insecurity about beingthe victim, everyone preying on them. My insecurity along with thatwas being the kind of person to abuse someone in their own delusionsabout being a victim while being the oppressor. One acts out ofentitlement. The other one acts out of responsibility. What I had iscalled conscience that's again consciousness and selfawarenss.

Narcaccusations lost impact huh. The factors and information is there.Throwing a label around shouldn't have had any impact in the firstplace. What matters is the logistics. If you refute someone justbecause they used the label "narc" that's signifying yourpersonal flaws of assessment.

Andthe links i posted was an ILI who said they became aware of their ownnarcissism and started to turn things around. Stupid ILIs kept beingmad insecure because they hand't gotten to that point in theirunderstanding perhaps because it's painful to change and admit howwrong you've been. A lot of them don't figure things out enough fastenough about themselves. You came here to toot ur own horn because uwanted validation. Forget about ILIs not caring what others think. Ifthat was the case why did they even respond to my thread. It's soobvious how far down the rabbit hole you are. You put urself there asa justification to drag others down.

Stoptrying to forget your responsibility to smear the consequences ofyour actions. Do you know how much pain I'm responsible for? Do youknow what's it like for someone like me to watch someone like youegoistically walk over others so much while telling yourselfyou are a good person because you changed one little thing abouturself in how many years?

ILIsdo keep things in closet. Their closet sometimes becomes a Te closed.Real world fortress that defends them. IEIs dont have that luxurybecause they chose to expose themselves to the dangers of reality bybeing prosocial instead of only looking after themselves. ILIentitled brat hid themselves. Their Te fortress closet is theexternal world validation for their narcissism showing them how smartand capable they are unlike those morons on the outside who exposethemselves to danger. And they are socially inept. They can't protecttheir sensitivity like that. They have poor self control and selfunderstanding. IEIs cant force everyone into submission through hardimmediate confrontation. That would be attention-seeking narcissism.ILIs dont have to hide some things because it wouldnt inconveniencethem. They are sensitive to other's criticism but only when overtlydisplayed. Due to being socially inept AND getting off on pissingother people off narcissistically, they won't need to hide somethings. Due to shutting the door (feelings and feelings of others) tothe prospect of considering what someone foreign feels or thinks, itdoesn't bother them. It's narcissistic self-defense. They are sobothered and incompetent that they have to be shut off prospects ofbeing considerate at all.

Pedostory. he became insecure about how women would view him. He turnedto children because they are innocent and pure. They wouldn't havecriticisms and preferences he has to conform to. He wouldn't want tobe played by someone older than him (as it was his coming of age,meaning all the women/girls that would be appropriate for him wouldbe his age or older which means POWERFUL). He wants to explore hisfeelings of inferiority by externalizing what others more powerfulthan him would to to him on children. His experiment to make himselfunderstand his feelings through a proxy - a child. The child issupposed to bear his feelings for him and he to analyze them from theoutside while he plays the role of the powerful (secure) one. Hedidn't tell me any of this. He is openly a paedophile and makes jokesabout it to piss people off because they deserve it for hating himfor no reason. So so a lot of things are in the closet for ILIs butit's obvious. Due to him not opening up to me, it prevents me fromfiddling with his psyche to make him understand. My job is to notallow him to conduct his experiment.

Anotherone listens to metal. Likes knights and vikings. he got bullied as akid for having a rich imagination. he became closeted, then saved akid from being bullied, then hated on gay people for "playing"victims, denying that they are getting often beaten in EasternEurope, and made fun of their committing suicide as being "weak".This is his delusion of superiority for not commiting suicide whilehe is rejected by most people and dealing with trauma. He plays longRPG games skipped most of school. He denies everyone's problemssaying they are not trying hard enough. Again his own trauma of beingbullied. The RPGs are gruelling grinding that's also keeping his mindat peace distracted with something mind numbing that's also achallenge of patience and effort. Should I have to explain how thistranslates into being right-winger capitalist that someone said weretired of hearing about ILIs on the previous thread? I suspect a lotof ILIs are among pedos. Programmers software engineers, know how toavoid getting caught. Know how to navigate the dark parts of theinternet. He didnt come to school because he was traumatised/anxiouslike the gay people are. What's out of closet about that? I couldn'tafford to be a fucking idiot like him.

Therewas a gay kid with second ILI in class who refused to sit in class.Teachcer said he would punish the whole class if he doesnt. SecondILI hated gay kid for getting in the way of the class. So did most ofthe class. That's called scapegoating. They should have hated theteacher. Gay kid refused to sit because he didnt feel safe and wastrying to become more confrontational due to severe anxiety thatwould chase him as long as he was acting like a pussy. He wanted tochallenge himself to be strong. Class hating him proves his beinginsecure about being accepted. They would pretend to accept him aslong as he doesn't act in their face - this always implies they hatehim anyway. Being gay translates into things he has to constnatlythink about not displaying that he naturally would otherwise which isreally stupid to ask of someone. There's no such thing as being "intheir face". It s provoking them because they have a weak senseof self so they get dragged into his antics which is their personalfault.

ILIteacher wouldnt ask for help or protest against the wrong the worlddid to her. Why because she would get too much into others way? One,because if she had power she would be pissed at someone trying totake it away from her by being helped. 2 Because that means admittinginferiority admitting weakness. It's against her ego. She'd ratherfuck someone up than help them because helping them would bedisrespectful.

@rebelondeckif u dont care about the consequences of ur behavior u can also beovert with worldviews. ILIs dont care how they affect others. Theirworld view is confrontantional. If you are prosocial instead thismeans being careful with what you express. IEIs are also way moreinclined to change their worldview meaning unconfident in what theyalready believe in so why would they voice it just to bring attentionto yourself, be shit on for it, while pissing people off. That's theopposite of IEI intentions. Then ILIs only express them when theywon't get messed up by everyone else. meaning when convenient. Beingselfish means they were less dependent than what others think of thembecause they were building their own fortress while IEIs were busysolving other people's problems, people that hate IEIs.

Peoplewho don't hate themselves. People who don't seem themselves as verybad. They are not self aware. They are the real narcissists. Then ofcourse ILIs would deny their feelings of self hatred as it isinferiority. That's what I mean.
@shazaamits not ironic he was gamma NT. They shut off their own emotionsbecause of narcissism. they think its weak and disrespectful toexpect someone to care about you. if you are crying it means you aretrying to make someone care for you which takes away their freedom toabuse you. They removed their own feelings which allows others toabuse them without the NT being resentful about it. If you cry you"manipulate" them into feelings which makes them weak sothey want to hurt you more.
09-26-2021, 03:03 AM
roger557

1. Are these people supposedly exhibiting narcissistic behavior really ILI's?

2. Could the supposed "narcissistic behavior" be misinterpreted (and be simply, for example, a tendency to call out people on their bullshit)?
09-26-2021, 03:07 AM
Giordano Bruno

Being overlord and world conqueror of the alien terrain is always prismatic and dinosaur!!
09-26-2021, 04:47 AM
End

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eudaimonia

I think the Fi HA of ILIs can come as unnecessarily biting and stubbornly judgemental. But ILIs can also be right a lot of the time, they may not want to acknowledge that the truth can be painful and sometimes needs to be obfuscated.

Pretty much the issue to be honest. If you want the unvarnished and un-redacted "harsh" truth you go to an ILI. The other unasked question is did you really want that? I've said it many a time and I'll state it here again because it fits: "Don't ask questions you don't want to learn the answer to"

That's a pretty much non-existent concern for the likes of myself but people do be solipsistic by their nature. That is to say we tend to think other people are much like if not exactly like ourselves. It took me a lot of iterations before I finally learned that I cannot force people to see "the truth" on demand. I have to wait for them to hit an emotional nadir. I have to wait until they experience a literal mind-break before I may, may, be able to convert my most strident adversaries to my line of thought.

Me? Construct an actual cogent and sound argument and I'm on board. Why then did all my "opponents" resort to rhetoric when logic was all they needed to convince me? I mean at that point I was opposing them just for the sake of experimentation. I'd have said the sky was red just to get their reaction as a data point if I thought that'd help me somehow get to "the truth" as I'd put it.

All arguments for atheism are rhetorical. And rhetoric is deserving of the utmost and most virulent of disdain for it ultimately aims to get people to accept falsehoods as truths. This may be the source of your complaint. A healthy ILI won't obfuscate shit because to do so would admit the truth itself needs obfuscation. The Gnostics were labeled and judged as damned dirty heretics for very good reason if we want to jump down this rabbit hole.

Namely, that line of thought makes it quite easy to deify Lucifer and his cohort of demons and that will have very predictable results of the most negative kind!
09-26-2021, 11:13 AM
Rebelondeck

Many ILIs are superb at defending the logic in a concept but the difficulty with a few is when their "truth" isn't really true. They can be most difficult to convince otherwise and, if they perceive the "siege" as increasing, reactions can sometimes become harsh to the extreme - one anti-vaxer stands out in my mind.

a.k.a. I/O
09-26-2021, 12:17 PM
Rebelondeck

Quote:

Originally Posted by VewyScawwyNawcissist

......@rebelondeckif u dont care about the consequences of ur behavior u can also beovert with worldviews. ILIs dont care how they affect others. Theirworld view is confrontantional. If you are prosocial instead thismeans being careful with what you express. IEIs are also way moreinclined to change their worldview meaning unconfident in what theyalready believe in so why would they voice it just to bring attentionto yourself, be shit on for it, while pissing people off. That's theopposite of IEI intentions. Then ILIs only express them when theywon't get messed up by everyone else. meaning when convenient. Beingselfish means they were less dependent than what others think of thembecause they were building their own fortress while IEIs were busysolving other people's problems, people that hate IEIs.....

I didn't notice this until now. I think that most ILIs do care how they affect others but many only realize this after the confrontation. I've known more than a few who could be described as gentle spirits albeit stubborn. IEIs don't seem to change their world view, but unlike most ILIs, many deliberately neglect to put it out there in order that their company would erroneously think otherwise. The other Ips tend to be as firmly entrenched as ILIs.

a.k.a. I/O
09-26-2021, 12:54 PM
VewyScawwyNawcissist

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rebelondeck

I didn't notice this until now. I think that most ILIs do care how they affect others but many only realize this after the confrontation. I've known more than a few who could be described as gentle spirits albeit stubborn. IEIs don't seem to change their world view, but unlike most ILIs, many deliberately neglect to put it out there in order that their company would erroneously think otherwise. The other Ips tend to be as firmly entrenched as ILIs.

a.k.a. I/O

i cant see how its possible to not change ur world view. Change is learning. If you have a brain you're gonna change somehow. You can make all the excuses about ILIs you saw a bunch of them claiming they don't care. It's downright insane how much they can delude themselves. Don't miss the spoiler. HAHA at OP. There' nothing humble like calling yourself humble and denying your own narcissism.

At the same time, they sometimes can be prophetic, prescient, and profound in their visions, and sometimes reflect a far more rebellious, aggressive, or outspoken demeanor.

IEIs may feel strongly about these types of causes and some may expend considerable effort towards expressing their avidity towards them, even posing toxic criticism to those that do not share these deep moral callings. However, many other IEIs may lack the impulse or motivation to take this type of action at all.

ILIs can, in certain situations, act very tentatively. In many situations they are inclined to hesitate prior to taking any action or making important decisions. They may commonly be pervasively plagued by gnawing doubts on any topic that they contemplate. They may also prefer to observe and gather an understanding of a situation rather than actively participate

This is from the socionics site. Yes IEIs may not say some things. And there are things they are not fully convince in so why would they assert them. It's nothing different from ILIs. Do you really see an ILI consistently getting inside groups of people who'd tear them apart if they voiced their beliefs? No. IEIs are way more willing to mingle with people who'd disagree with them in which case you're supposed to gently guide them towards understanding the IEI vision instead of voicing the most shocking thing (which again IEIs DO depending on the damn circumstance) that would result in something bad. This could happen way more today because media technology spreading everything around. ILIs don't want to harmonize with others. They want enemies to destroy because ILIs TEND to be fundamentally anti-social. They make enemies with stupid assumptions towards them like other people would do to IEIs. There's no attempt at understanding and harmonizing (Ti + Fe) because again they don't care (and again they do. but they are too narcissistic to admit this and their dependence on everyone else, they look down on everyone because it makes them feel safe. It's fun to make ILIs cry by dissecting them and exposing their idiotic vulnerability.)
09-26-2021, 02:31 PM
Rebelondeck

@VewyScawwyNawcissist I should have worded the statement something like "IEIs seem somewhat resistant to changing their world view,". Most people do adapt and change over time. However, there seems to be significantly more mental inertia in Ip-thinking than with other temperments but I don't see that as a bad thing because it enables them to successfully navigate through some rather chaotic situations.

a.k.a. I/O
09-26-2021, 02:48 PM
VewyScawwyNawcissist

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rebelondeck

@VewyScawwyNawcissist I should have worded the statement something like "IEIs seem somewhat resistant to changing their world view,". Most people do adapt and change over time. However, there seems to be significantly more mental inertia in Ip-thinking than with other temperments but I don't see that as a bad thing because it enables them to successfully navigate through some rather chaotic situations.

a.k.a. I/O

That's inaccurate. most people dont even have world views. It's all about being socially accepted. They believe what's convenient for their immediate survival. They change their worldview superficially to avoid conflict. They are so cognitively dissonant and contradictory. xII and IxI have the most amount of interrelated information that has to be influenced for them to change their world view. The problem with ILIs is that they often do not give a shit about the truth. They want to indulge in their delusions. The truth is vital for the xII and IEI but antithetical for the ILI. WOOOW I just recalled in a show the most ILI character's theme was all about LIES. It was awesome you should watch Bakemonogatari.
09-26-2021, 02:49 PM
Shazaam

True narcissists are very good at covering up how shitty they are in the public eye. They use either Te or Fe (or a mixture of both) to manipulate things in an external way to look like a 'good person' but interpersonally they are shit. Society as a machine doesn't care so much how genuine or 'real' your compassion/morality/empathy is as long as you can have the right veneer that you are this way.

Type wise I don't see ILI as likely to do this much at all. More like the opposite. They are probably more likely to look like jerks on the outside but treat their SO like gold. An ILI that's unhealthy or sadistic is very obvious though.
09-26-2021, 03:06 PM
Shazaam

Quote:

That's inaccurate. most people dont even have world views. It's all about being socially accepted.

I don't always agree with you but I think this is a good point lol. I was trying to think of what my world view is exactly but the question is so vague I'm not sure it's even possible... to really have one. I'm sure it seems objectively or logically like IEIs have a world view that we are a persecuted victim to others- but that can change to me if other people simply treat an IEI better lol. If you take your own responsibility half-way to how you are treating IEIs and don't victim-blame completely- you also help change an IEIs worldview ((I admit I'm stubborn but that's just where good Se comes in)) Or they are placed in better or more compatible envrionment, since Te is external. People often have a just world fallacy/blame the victim mentality that you can keep on pooping on others and they shouldn't retaliate because 'life isn't what happens to you it's how you respond to it that counts!' There's truth in that but you're also just excusing other people from acting like sadistic, narcisisstic & cowardly shitheads.
09-26-2021, 03:10 PM
EUDAEMONIUM

https://i.imgur.com/woomjlW.gif?noredirect
09-26-2021, 03:30 PM
Rebelondeck

@VewyScawwyNawcissist Perhaps I shouldn't have used the word world-view, which I thought was a comprehensive conception of one's world from a specific standpoint; this world could be as big or as small as one's horizons.

a.k.a. I/O
09-26-2021, 03:30 PM
VewyScawwyNawcissist

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shazaam

True narcissists are very good at covering up how shitty they are in the public eye. They use either Te or Fe (or a mixture of both) to manipulate things in an external way to look like a 'good person' but interpersonally they are shit.

Type wise I don't see ILI as likely to do this much at all. More like the opposite. They are probably more likely to look like jerks on the outside but treat their SO like gold. An ILI that's unhealthy or sadistic is very obvious though.

they are shitheads in public. it's obvious. most people like shitheads because most people are shitheads but are too weak to be shitheads effectively so they have to pretend to have empathy. The chad is a fuckboi and yells at his GF for crying after he did whatevevr kinds of bs. You know he is a shithead because he is superficial. you can't grab everyone's approval when you know most people are shitheads without being a superficial shithead OR actually be in the right but indulging in having fun. In both cases he would be abusive. He is competent meaning conforming to the fabrications that signify that meaning he has no insight or perceptiveness meaning he would be a cunt due to that. Or he has the insight and perceptiveness but has no empathy so he doesnt give a shit. See it always goes that way. What's a sadistic ILI obvious to me may not be one obvious to you. So far I have not met one that's not too sadistic for my taste yet all of the ones I've met are liked/appreciated. The pedo is actually probably the most prosocial and the loneliest at the same time.
ILI would treat their SO well on ILI's terms. World view below related. Their SO would need to be the kind of person who'd want the way ILI would treat her while also SUBMITTING to be treated the way ILI wants to treat her. Someone might see providing everything for someone as golden but then it's depriving the someone from being independent. That's a common pattern in narc relationships. Do everything for someone while taking away their ability to provide for themselves. That's called turning someone codependent and it fits perfectly with the superior independent omnipotent ILI. It's a false Buddha.
bear's service
The meaning of "bear's service" originally comes from a fable about a man and a bear. The bear wanted to help the man by killing a gnat which sat on his forehead. As a result both the gnat and the man died.

Worldview is the same as what u yourself are. It's the brain processing things as part of the universe that reflects on itself through you that forms your worldview through being the world. You view the world so your subjective factor is inseparrable from the objective and u are part of the objective world. Ni perspective yadda yadda. @Rebelondeck I dont understand how what u said as what u meant is different from what I meant when I talked about it
09-26-2021, 03:38 PM
VewyScawwyNawcissist

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eudaimonia

https://i.imgur.com/woomjlW.gif?noredirect

what's the matter, though?
09-26-2021, 06:55 PM
lkdhf qkb

Quote:

Originally Posted by VewyScawwyNawcissist

what's the matter, though?

The matter is that this is the 50th iteration on this forum of IEIs and ILIs being bitter at each other for hitting on each other's Polr and blaming the other for being shit at their creative. It's the ultimate victimhood debate, a competition to who suffers the most from the mean mean world. The winner(the 'victim') can then blame all his problems on the looser(the 'bad torturer') and invoke a saviour(Se dom). Nihil sub sole novum.

Btw, funny username to make all these generalizations and accusations.
09-26-2021, 08:28 PM
VewyScawwyNawcissist

Quote:

Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb

The matter is that this is the 50th iteration on this forum of IEIs and ILIs being bitter at each other for hitting on each other's Polr and blaming the other for being shit at their creative. It's the ultimate victimhood debate, a competition to who suffers the most from the mean mean world. The winner(the 'victim') can then blame all his problems on the looser(the 'bad torturer') and invoke a saviour(Se dom). Nihil sub sole novum.

Btw, funny username to make all these generalizations and accusations.

it's omnidimensional sarcasm. u wouldnt get it.
i dont get how a Se type can be anyone's saviour. If two people disagree and blame each other, it doesn't mean both are abusers. That's how it looks to idiots. It's the olderst joke, you get bullied AND then get punished along with the bully. I would really know this. Grew up with an IEE sibling. You guys are incapable of accepting responsibility. Life is easy when you give up on morality because it's too difficult to do the right thing then make all kinds of excuses to say everything's fine.
09-27-2021, 12:04 AM
Shazaam

Quote:

The matter is that this is the 50th iteration on this forum of IEIs and ILIs being bitter at each other for hitting on each other's Polr and blaming the other for being shit at their creative. It's the ultimate victimhood debate, a competition to who suffers the most from the mean mean world. The winner(the 'victim') can then blame all his problems on the looser(the 'bad torturer') and invoke a saviour(Se dom). Nihil sub sole novum.

Maybe. But what IEEs often do is try to manipulate both sides to try and gain an advantage or pretend to be higher than both when there's really often no such thing as being in the middle of anything. So tell the truth: Are you on ILI or IEIs side more. Probably ILI cuz it's not your conflicting quadra. =D IEE don't have to always be two-face like this, it's okay to take sides because everybody knows who you really are for anyway.
09-27-2021, 08:17 AM
lkdhf qkb

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shazaam

Maybe. But what IEEs often do is try to manipulate both sides to try and gain an advantage or pretend to be higher than both when there's really often no such thing as being in the middle of anything. So tell the truth: Are you on ILI or IEIs side more. Probably ILI cuz it's not your conflicting quadra. =D IEE don't have to always be two-face like this, it's okay to take sides because everybody knows who you really are for anyway.

It's funny how some people can never hear criticism and must always accuse others of some kind of battle for moral superiority. What advantage are you even talking about? Is this some Se-inf victimy blaming other people again? What would I have to gain from either taking sides or from being superior to what's happening here? (Btw, isn't the whole playground battle here about moral superiority? "you are the narcissist!" "no ILIs aren't narcisissts, stop burning all my toys you mean IEI"?)

I said this thread sucks same as the one before and that both ILIs and IEIs suck when they do those; but you want to perceive me as two-faced because you don't like to hear that no one cares about this stupid bickering for 4 year-olds.
09-27-2021, 08:20 AM
lkdhf qkb

Quote:

Originally Posted by VewyScawwyNawcissist

Grew up with an IEE sibling. You guys are incapable of accepting responsibility. Life is easy when you give up on morality because it's too difficult to do the right thing then make all kinds of excuses to say everything's fine.

You sound like you have some issues in your past and should mb talk with your brother. I'll talk to you once you stop projecting and treat me like a person and not a representation of your past trauma.
09-27-2021, 08:53 AM
EUDAEMONIUM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb

It's funny how some people can never hear criticism and must always accuse others of some kind of battle for moral superiority. What advantage are you even talking about? Is this some Se-inf victimy blaming other people again? What would I have to gain from either taking sides or from being superior to what's happening here? (Btw, isn't the whole playground battle here about moral superiority? "you are the narcissist!" "no ILIs aren't narcisissts, stop burning all my toys you mean IEI"?)

I said this thread sucks same as the one before and that both ILIs and IEIs suck when they do those; but you want to perceive me as two-faced because you don't like to hear that no one cares about this stupid bickering for 4 year-olds.

So yea keep asking "On WHoOo'S SiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiDe ArE YoU OoOoOooooNNnnn??"

Funny indeed...
09-27-2021, 09:17 AM
lkdhf qkb

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eudaimonia

Funny indeed...

As I said, you can always write me a pm, but you didn't want to, and preferred to 'insult me openly'. You can't refuse to talk and then accuse me of not listening, you get that, right? Because for now I only get passive aggressiveness, not criticism, but mb that's your strategy all along to continue feeling justified in whatever you're feeling :shrug:

I'll put you on ignore right now, I think I've waited long enough for some real dialogue, but you can continue commenting on whatever I write if you feel you need to express your bitterness. You can let it all out. I don't care anymore. I think you're a nice guy when you want to(not said disparagingly! this is a compliment for me). Bye!
09-27-2021, 10:52 AM
VewyScawwyNawcissist

Quote:

Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb

You sound like you have some issues in your past and should mb talk with your brother. I'll talk to you once you stop projecting and treat me like a person and not a representation of your past trauma.

My sibling is one IEE of many. It's the same pattern over and over. Maybe you should get the hint that you're not so special to be different from them. All of them are in denial. Just like most ILIs. And you are really pissing me off because you literally doing the same thing they are doing and you say "stop projecting". You think you have it all figured out but you keep beating around the bush dodging arguements throwing accussations. Sucks having 1D Ti. There's physical proof in your text on the screen. That's not my projection, Brenda. It's reality. I mentioned sibling and other IEEs to show you how corny and vapid everything you say is. Yeah i made them C R Y but then they shouldn't so lightly demean other people's problems.

You are not battling for moral superiority you want to help everyone to get along but it's a Fi Te want. Meaning it's about immediate utility not about actually solving fundamentally. 1D Ti means you fail to understand the situation then project on everyone that they fail to understnad. You don't help just by "criticizing" someone and expecting them to pretend it makes sense to fake social harmony. If you want to be treated differently then stop being the same. If you want to be treated like a person then stop being a corny Ne Fi Te amalgamation of stereotypes while pretending that makes you "wise, experienced and unique". "2 people bickering - oh stop bickering like kids" thank you so much for the meaningful input. Maybe you should start treating people like actual people? Maybe I'm mirroring what you are doing to me? I know you can't think that far anyway. Who is the offender who did it first doesn't matter to you. No one can do wrong or right. So wise. In trying to be the most relatable person ever you've lost your self. We even have the same arguements where you pretend to ask me meaningful questions to lead me to some kind of insight under the pretense I'm missing something while you're missing my whole point. Example is now bringing up my sibling. Pretending that it somehow me saying there being a pattern with IEEs that also shows with my sibling invalidates everything I said. I have always wondered if IEEs ever realize mid-game how incompetent and wrong they are they keep digging themselves deeper in their hole because on top of it all they feel depreciated when all they wanted was to help. I have never seen IEE admit they are wrong. They keep shaming someone so hard for being wrong but when the same thing gets done to them deflect forever. Same with ILIs. My sibling can't even apologize bc she can't even understand what she did wrong. @Shazaam they are not two faced intentionally. They can't figure out what's going on. Ti or Fi blind. xLEs and xEEs are the same that way. Cognitive dissonance or manipulation? It's the same things sometimes. Assholes incapable of reasoning things properly. It's actually been Delusions. Of course being limited cognitively means you will also be dissonant without realizing it.
Students who reported more liberal political views were found to have a larger volume of grey matter in the anterior cingulate cortex,^[3] a structure of the brain associated with emotional awareness and the emotional processing of pain.^[17]^[18] The anterior cingulate cortex becomes active in situations of uncertainty,^[19] and is postulated to play a role in error detection, such as the monitoring and processing of conflicting stimuli or information. That's Ti AND Fi. Internal sense of right and wrong. And that brain part doesn't work in psychopathic brains.
09-27-2021, 11:29 AM
lkdhf qkb

Quote:

Originally Posted by VewyScawwyNawcissist

My sibling is one IEE of many. It's the same pattern over and over. Maybe you should get the hint that you're not so special to be different from them. All of them are in denial. Just like most ILIs. And you are really pissing me off because you literally doing the same thing they are doing and you say "stop projecting". You think you have it all figured out but you keep beating around the bush dodging arguements throwing accussations. Sucks having 1D Ti. There's physical proof in your text on the screen. That's not my projection, Brenda. It's reality. I mentioned sibling and other IEEs to show you how corny and vapid everything you say is. Yeah i made them C R Y but then they shouldn't so lightly demean other people's problems.

Yea I shouldn't have been disrespectful of other people's problems, that's on me, sorry.

However, let's not stray from the topic of this thread, which isn't about IEEs, even if you'd love to make this personal. You've been throwing accusations of narcissism around towards not individuals but a whole type, criticising everyone for several threads, you seem to despise everyone who doesn't think like you and think you've figured it all out("That's not my projection, Brenda. It's reality."), which is weirdly what you accuse me of doing. If you don't think this is denial, projection and rationalization of victim-playing, I don't know what to tell you.
But yea mb you're right and we are the same. However, what purpose does mirroring serve to you? Is it just another way to say you're a victim and I'm a torturer? You're right and I'm wrong? You can't be both right and a mirror, you can't be both superior and equal at the same time, you can't hit someone and be a victim at the same time.

I think talking doesn't serve any purpose here until you understand that you can't treat everyone like some stereotypical pattern in your mind, even if that's the Holy Premise of Socionics.
09-27-2021, 11:53 AM
VewyScawwyNawcissist

I actually get called emotionless robot by ILIs. its because i have to shut off my own bias to make good decisions. ILIs dont think about how others feel at all so they can have their own biased emotions to further their own success. WHen ILIs care how someone feels it's only based on the other people having biased feelings like themselves. They don't care about anyone and they don't hate anyone because they don't care about anyone. I hate. Because I care and think about others. ILIs have personal bias in who and what they care about. Tribalistic. It's not out of reason but out of "just because I feel like it" AND THEN the justifications for that. They call actual thinking "Making excuses". ILIs see my shutting off bias as being manipulative or lying to myself. Ironic as they are the ones delluding themselves in superiority complexes. Their true feelings of superiority are challenged so they do everything they can to validate them.
09-27-2021, 03:54 PM
Shazaam

*sigh* reign it in a bit @VewyScawwyNawcissist. I highly doubt she's guilty of all those things you are projecting onto her like a creepy Hannibal. I feel like this thread is getting just as toxic as the other one. Remember that Big Daddy can shut this thread down with his Genie Powers just like he did the other one. If you want to just go on tangents that aren't about the topic at hand- use your 'off my chest' thread for that.

And please don't use spoiler tags to personally harrass other members. That's not what they are for.

Obviously a severely bullied school shooter is both a victim and an offender at the same time (and there are a million other examples) - but nobody is going to listen or care about his pain once he chooses to attack others. And nor should they. Delta virtue signaling nonsense maybe, but all quadras have their place in society.
09-27-2021, 06:49 PM
Robert Dane Horlock

I think this thread should be close if it’s just becoming toxic, and people are just using it to attack one another. It’s totally past it’s purpose and use at this point.

It also seems like people have issues and that they need to solve them outside of a Socionics forum.
09-28-2021, 10:06 AM
SlytherinPower

Individuals can be narcissistic, not types.
09-28-2021, 06:15 PM
Robert Dane Horlock

Quote:

Originally Posted by one

The problem is you can just take it to another thread and that thread would be as equally toxic. But I do think that a thread with the title including the phrase "_insert type here_ aren't narcissists" is a good bait for toxicity.

Yeah, people are so easily baited that they just give in and continue the trail. In this case, I think ignoring the person works. If everyone ignores them, they go away. But people let their inner, defensive instincts take over, and they let it spiral out of control and cause more chaos than it's worth.
10-02-2021, 04:12 AM
End

Quote:

Originally Posted by VewyScawwyNawcissist

That's inaccurate. most people dont even have world views. It's all about being socially accepted. They believe what's convenient for their immediate survival. They change their worldview superficially to avoid conflict. They are so cognitively dissonant and contradictory. xII and IxI have the most amount of interrelated information that has to be influenced for them to change their world view. The problem with ILIs is that they often do not give a shit about the truth. They want to indulge in their delusions. The truth is vital for the xII and IEI but antithetical for the ILI. WOOOW I just recalled in a show the most ILI character's theme was all about LIES. It was awesome you should watch Bakemonogatari.

I'll speak from direct experience here. You want a person who wants to find the truth no matter what? Who fully identifies with the phrase "Let Justice be done though the heavens fall?" Look for an ILI. I don't and won't hold back. However, even at my most broken I felt and knew without any citation or evidence (i.e. pure :Ni:) that there was/is something utterly wrong with the world and that even if it cost me all of my sanity and soul I would find out what it was and somehow fling that dying light into the future. I'd find that wrong thing, identify it, categorize it so clearly even a lobotomized retard would do something in response and (by extension of all that) at least find some what to damage it and if nothing else tell someone else what it was and they, if not myself sadly, would find a way to make that fact count.

It seems you were utterly betrayed in a bad way by an ILI I'd wager. To get backstabbed by your kindred relationship is one hell of a wound I will admit. After all, they weren't quite like you but they really ought to have "understood" you on a fundamental level. To truly be able to empathize with another, to in some way understand them in such a primal and absolute way... and then stab that knife deep into your back/chest for what seemed to be the enjoyment of it? Verily I say unto you you have experienced a truth. There are demons among us and evil exists in many forms and in all types. Do not fall into despair because you had a close encounter of the Demonic kind.
10-02-2021, 05:13 AM
VewyScawwyNawcissist

Quote:

Originally Posted by End

I'll speak from direct experience here. You want a person who wants to find the truth no matter what? Who fully identifies with the phrase "Let Justice be done though the heavens fall?" Look for an ILI. I don't and won't hold back. However, even at my most broken I felt and knew without any citation or evidence (i.e. pure :Ni:) that there was/is something utterly wrong with the world and that even if it cost me all of my sanity and soul I would find out what it was and somehow fling that dying light into the future. I'd find that wrong thing, identify it, categorize it so clearly even a lobotomized retard would do something in response and (by extension of all that) at least find some what to damage it and if nothing else tell someone else what it was and they, if not myself sadly, would find a way to make that fact count.

It seems you were utterly betrayed in a bad way by an ILI I'd wager. To get backstabbed by your kindred relationship is one hell of a wound I will admit. After all, they weren't quite like you but they really ought to have "understood" you on a fundamental level. To truly be able to empathize with another, to in some way understand them in such a primal and absolute way... and then stab that knife deep into your back/chest for what seemed to be the enjoyment of it? Verily I say unto you you have experienced a truth. There are demons among us and evil exists in many forms and in all types. Do not fall into despair because you had a close encounter of the Demonic kind.

those kinds of people think im the one backstabbing them by criticizing what they do. they do not realize they are hurting others unfairly. they dont do it on purpose. they have justificiations for it that make sense to them that arent in line with the truth. they think i am hurting them by stopping them from hurting me and others which is what is the consequences of what they do. they think its a given or a necessity for everyone and are fighting a fair fight that no one can complain about. they want to be honest with yet throw accussations instead of trying to figure it out. they deny they are the force that drives the war that forces others to have to fight them to begin with. This is the pattern of your experience with misogyny for instance. Thought something was wrong with women that wasn't and they had to be abused and submissive which you saw as being deserving and adequate compensation for your efforts. like thats how they have to be for you to not be abused. they do not understand interconnectedness which also means people. thats the solipsism and narcissism u said. and there is more and less of it depending on the individual but i would say that any ILI struggles with it in general to a higher level than an IEI would. this by default necessiates ILI being unfair, intentionally or not. if IEI's strength is to teach ILI in that regard they ILI offended by someone policing them since ILI thinks ILI isn't policing or getting in anyone's way (both solipsism (not understanding that they are) and narcissism (thinking its fair and others having their way is unfair. wants them to fight for it. they dont distinguish between unsolicited aggression/hostiliy and self-defense. in defense of ILIs i say that ILIs arent hurting other intentionally a lot of the time bc unlike them i am more aware of other's intentions and needs)
10-02-2021, 05:51 AM
Nightmare

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eudaimonia

I think Narcissism is overblown.

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/healt...oms-and-causes

This is a survival mechanism. Anyone who ever amounted to anything great has these characteristics in some form or another.

I was put down all the time as a kid (by teachers, my parents, other kids) and the only person who believed in me then was myself, so I'm not really going to be ashamed of this.

If you think you need something more than what you """"deserve"""" you have an "overinflated sense of importance". Guess what? You get what you can take in the end and you are the one that determines what you deserve.

You're only able to say this because you've never dealt with an actual narcissist or learned about them in-depth. People do this all the time: "Whatever, I relate to this, this could be anyone." Largely, that is because things are relative to comparison. People who say these things never realize how extreme things are. Narcissists are like this to such a great extent that it's toxic and sometimes even dangerous. It usually tends to traumatize people. Just to give you an example...their grandiosity is rooted in deep, deep insecurity. They see people as objects--they technically "have" empathy, they just don't care enough to actually use it. You're literally no different than a can opener, a couch, or a phone to them. These are people who will watch a movie in which someone carrying a laptop walks in front of a bus--and their knee-jerk reaction is to care about the damage to the laptop rather than the person. Their grandiosity is insecurity, thus depends upon "narcissistic supply," which they use other people for. These people are known as narcissistic agents, flying monkeys, or enablers. Their grandiosity is so extreme that their offspring are nothing more than extensions of themselves: they are there to live up to the narcissist's expectations, values, standards, in order to be part of the narcissist's desired image. Simultaneously, it's impossible to meet those things the way they want you to, which is also partly why emotional abuse takes place during the "reshaping" process. The child is stripped of any individual personality, emotionally abused into mentally depending upon them and being whatever the narcissist wants them to be. They want to decide their child's interests, personality, views/beliefs, values, social life, everything--all to meet their own need for a grandiose image that others will esteem. The reason they control the social life is partly because to keep the abused person isolated is to also maintain more security in their control over the victim. When the children are not extensions of the parent, they are often scapegoats for everything (maybe for not living up to the desired image the narcissist wants the child to give the parent, or because the child resembles the other parent more than them, or whatever). Blamed for everything, including what the narcissist is at fault for. They can't admit they were wrong about anything, everything is someone else's fault. They always have to present themselves as the victim. Compromises don't exist in their world. They don't care enough to bother, even. The only thing they care about is getting what they want.

Does that sound like normal survival mechanisms to you?
10-02-2021, 08:23 AM
EUDAEMONIUM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hexcoder

Does that sound like normal survival mechanisms to you?

What is a normal survival mechanism?
10-02-2021, 11:05 AM
Nightmare

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eudaimonia

What is a normal survival mechanism?

One that is not maladaptive is what I intended to say, I suppose.
10-02-2021, 01:14 PM
End

Quote:

Originally Posted by VewyScawwyNawcissist

those kinds of people think im the one backstabbing them by criticizing what they do. they do not realize they are hurting others unfairly. they dont do it on purpose. they have justificiations for it that make sense to them that arent in line with the truth. they think i am hurting them by stopping them from hurting me and others which is what is the consequences of what they do. they think its a given or a necessity for everyone and are fighting a fair fight that no one can complain about. they want to be honest with yet throw accussations instead of trying to figure it out. they deny they are the force that drives the war that forces others to have to fight them to begin with. This is the pattern of your experience with misogyny for instance. Thought something was wrong with women that wasn't and they had to be abused and submissive which you saw as being deserving and adequate compensation for your efforts. like thats how they have to be for you to not be abused. they do not understand interconnectedness which also means people. thats the solipsism and narcissism u said. and there is more and less of it depending on the individual but i would say that any ILI struggles with it in general to a higher level than an IEI would. this by default necessiates ILI being unfair, intentionally or not. if IEI's strength is to teach ILI in that regard they ILI offended by someone policing them since ILI thinks ILI isn't policing or getting in anyone's way (both solipsism (not understanding that they are) and narcissism (thinking its fair and others having their way is unfair. wants them to fight for it. they dont distinguish between unsolicited aggression/hostiliy and self-defense. in defense of ILIs i say that ILIs arent hurting other intentionally a lot of the time bc unlike them i am more aware of other's intentions and needs)

Or, to condense it down, the ILI is broken and has resorted to a common cope for his/her type. If they weren't broken they'd take the criticism as constructive so long as they didn't think you were hostile towards them. :Ni: with :Te: does tend to ignore the human/emotional side of achieving a goal and if someone told me how I was turning everyone off in regards to executing my genius plan (e.g. how I'm hurting them emotionally) for a better tomorrow I'd sure as hell listen. I am fighting the good fight but if someone told me how to fight smarter instead of harder I'd give that mofo a hug! Of course, in broken people criticism is usually synonymous with hostility so there ya go.

And in regards to my past experience with misogyny you're missing it rather hard. I was right about there being something wrong with modern women, but I was wrong about where the root of that problem was and what it stemmed from. I used to think it was biological hardware. That women were all hypergamous sluts at the core because that's how they were hardwired genetically. Now I understand it's a software issue. They became said sluts because that's a cope for their attachment issues (as is sleeping with said sluts if you happen to be a guy). Most men and women are terrible now because they are broken and they don't even know they are broken much less how and why they're broken. Even if they do somehow learn of that fact if they give into despair and conclude they and others cannot ever be fixed or redeemed they will never get better.

I'm a broken record here but I've become that for damn good reason. Pretty much all the problems people have in regards to interpersonal relationships can be traced back to broken attachment. You have to fix that before any real progress can be made. First step of solving a problem however is admitting/discovering you have one and in the West especially most everyone has this problem. Gotta spread awareness first if we want to then move on to solving this core and fundamental problem.
10-02-2021, 07:05 PM
Bethany

When I’m trying to understand ILIs I tell myself to think about Wuthering Heights- think of Heathcliff. I studied that book at school and the class of teenage girls I was in all agreed it was so messed up but we loved it. Our uptight ILI teacher (who btw was a bit of a dick to me) clearly loved it too and it was really fun to study. It’s one of the best books every written. Written by an ILI. It captures the darkness of what means to be human and even though Cathy and Heathcliff are really mean to each other (from what I remember) it’s also one of the saddest and most beautiful love stories around. To be mean and to hurt is to be human, and maybe ILIs can teach us something about dealing with and accepting that.
10-02-2021, 07:18 PM
EUDAEMONIUM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hexcoder

One that is not maladaptive is what I intended to say, I suppose.

Yeah I agree with what you are saying.
10-02-2021, 09:21 PM
VewyScawwyNawcissist

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hexcoder

One that is not maladaptive is what I intended to say, I suppose.

everyone else is maladapive compared to narcs in terms of immediate survival. u are also painting a too specific picture. they can have various levels of empathy including none. this can also fluctuate within a person. and often their not admiting they are wrong doesnt mean that they dont care that they are. they also do not do everythng for themselves solely. people break harder than some objects and it may not cost as much for them to heal depending on what. often the people saying someone cant admit they are wrong are the narcs themselves. often the majority is always right. or wheover has authority. so people are narcs usually. they can get supply from caring for someone. at the same time they may not care about someone else bc they are not relevant in their life. then they can care about others but superficially instead of understanding why and how things wrok. following ideas that everyone else follows bc its convenient. there are those rigidly convinced. a narc may never admit wrong but still try to do things for you. they can hurt u bad but also take severe sacrifices for you. they may seem intentonally cruel but be confused. those things overlap each other alot. think about it why would someone fuck up their relationships so bad? them feeling good about it is their cope like haha yaeah all according to plan u are just weaker than me. its social ineptitude not understanding and fear. in the case of psychopath there is no fear and he can manipulate himself often so that his little care stops really easily. so he may not have intended bad but went that way said fuck it and made it worse. is it on purpose really. it sounds more like the are struggling to do the right thng. they are lying and gaslighting bc they cant process whats happening in their mind or they cant exernalize the truth. psychopath said he didnt even want to lie it made his life worse but the words of truth simply wouldn't leave his lips. he got better at that with time.
10-03-2021, 05:25 AM
End

Quote:

Originally Posted by VewyScawwyNawcissist

everyone else is maladapive compared to narcs in terms of immediate survival. u are also painting a too specific picture. they can have various levels of empathy including none. this can also fluctuate within a person. and often their not admiting they are wrong doesnt mean that they dont care that they are. they also do not do everythng for themselves solely. people break harder than some objects and it may not cost as much for them to heal depending on what. often the people saying someone cant admit they are wrong are the narcs themselves. often the majority is always right. or wheover has authority. so people are narcs usually. they can get supply from caring for someone. at the same time they may not care about someone else bc they are not relevant in their life. then they can care about others but superficially instead of understanding why and how things wrok. following ideas that everyone else follows bc its convenient. there are those rigidly convinced. a narc may never admit wrong but still try to do things for you. they can hurt u bad but also take severe sacrifices for you. they may seem intentonally cruel but be confused. those things overlap each other alot. think about it why would someone fuck up their relationships so bad? them feeling good about it is their cope like haha yaeah all according to plan u are just weaker than me. its social ineptitude not understanding and fear. in the case of psychopath there is no fear and he can manipulate himself often so that his little care stops really easily. so he may not have intended bad but went that way said fuck it and made it worse. is it on purpose really. it sounds more like the are struggling to do the right thng. they are lying and gaslighting bc they cant process whats happening in their mind or they cant exernalize the truth. psychopath said he didnt even want to lie it made his life worse but the words of truth simply wouldn't leave his lips. he got better at that with time.

I hate to be this way and if all your poor ass has is an ancient potato of a smartphone to work with here I fully get it but otherwise learn some basic formatting my dude. Break this up into paragraphs and whatnot. This literal wall of text is aesthetically displeasing and by extension hard to work through and thus most won't even bother to read past your first sentence!

You lack capital letters after periods, the spell check function clearly isn't working too well for you, and I'm detecting a bit of projection (not to insult you or anything it's a common symptom of attachment issues and all that), etc.

The aesthetics of your argument, how you present it, matters brother. If you can and wish to respond to this please take that into consideration. If you really are a master of :Fe: as I am of :Te: than show it and earn my eternal respect thereby. Otherwise you are sadly yet another example of a broken version of thine own type. Useful to me in many ways because I need examples of them, but saddening because you are suffering needlessly and despite what you or others may say us ILI's do feel and do care far more deeply than many think we do.
10-03-2021, 06:58 AM
Nightmare

Quote:

Originally Posted by VewyScawwyNawcissist

everyone else is maladapive compared to narcs in terms of immediate survival. u are also painting a too specific picture. they can have various levels of empathy including none. this can also fluctuate within a person. and often their not admiting they are wrong doesnt mean that they dont care that they are. they also do not do everythng for themselves solely. people break harder than some objects and it may not cost as much for them to heal depending on what. often the people saying someone cant admit they are wrong are the narcs themselves. often the majority is always right. or wheover has authority. so people are narcs usually. they can get supply from caring for someone. at the same time they may not care about someone else bc they are not relevant in their life. then they can care about others but superficially instead of understanding why and how things wrok. following ideas that everyone else follows bc its convenient. there are those rigidly convinced. a narc may never admit wrong but still try to do things for you. they can hurt u bad but also take severe sacrifices for you. they may seem intentonally cruel but be confused. those things overlap each other alot. think about it why would someone fuck up their relationships so bad? them feeling good about it is their cope like haha yaeah all according to plan u are just weaker than me. its social ineptitude not understanding and fear. in the case of psychopath there is no fear and he can manipulate himself often so that his little care stops really easily. so he may not have intended bad but went that way said fuck it and made it worse. is it on purpose really. it sounds more like the are struggling to do the right thng. they are lying and gaslighting bc they cant process whats happening in their mind or they cant exernalize the truth. psychopath said he didnt even want to lie it made his life worse but the words of truth simply wouldn't leave his lips. he got better at that with time.

I can't even tell whether you're trolling but you need a therapist. I'm not going to bother with trying to go back and forth with you about this, I have more productive ways to utilize my time.
10-03-2021, 07:04 AM
Nightmare

Quote:

How and why most ILI's aren't Narcissists

Simple:
1. ILI in and of itself is not comparable to narcissism.
2. Statistically speaking, the majority of any type is not narcissistic.

Case closed, next.
10-03-2021, 07:07 AM
VewyScawwyNawcissist

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hexcoder

Simple:
1. ILI in and of itself is not comparable to narcissism.
2. Statistically speaking, the majority of any type is not narcissistic.

Case closed, next.

thats plain wrong. case closed, next
10-03-2021, 12:21 PM
Nightmare

Quote:

Originally Posted by VewyScawwyNawcissist

thats plain wrong. case closed, next

Proof?
10-03-2021, 12:45 PM
VewyScawwyNawcissist

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Fire

Proof?

there is no such thing as proof. there are guesses and there are better guesses. u have no proof but ur trash at Ti so u wont be able to understand that. in other words u have no proof that proof is a valid concept in the way u think it is. u didnt give any proof urself.
10-03-2021, 12:50 PM
Nightmare

Quote:

Originally Posted by VewyScawwyNawcissist

there is no such thing as proof. there are guesses and there are better guesses. u have no proof but ur trash at Ti so u wont be able to understand that. in other words u have no proof that proof is a valid concept in the way u think it is. u didnt give any proof urself.

Between 0.5 and 1 percent of the general population is diagnosed with NPD, a figure that has remained about the same since the term was established in 1968. So unless you're arguing that ILIs are that rare, that means the majority of them aren't narcissistic.
10-03-2021, 02:41 PM
End

Quote:

Originally Posted by VewyScawwyNawcissist

there is no such thing as proof. there are guesses and there are better guesses. u have no proof but ur trash at Ti so u wont be able to understand that. in other words u have no proof that proof is a valid concept in the way u think it is. u didnt give any proof urself.

No such thing as proof? Holy shit I now assert that you glow so righteously in the dark I can spot your ass from orbit! Please, I beg you, go to church and then seek therapy. Only a full on death cultist/glowie/wind-up toy believes that there is no such thing as an objective reality and thus no such thing as proof.

I am not intending to insult you or anything but I do lack the capacity to put this gently. There is an objective reality just as there is an objective morality. Learn about it, accept it, and adapt to win at the game we know as life. I want you and everyone I meet to win you see and right now I can tell you are going to lose and lose bigtime. I don't want to see that.
10-03-2021, 04:30 PM
VewyScawwyNawcissist

Quote:

Originally Posted by End

No such thing as proof? Holy shit I now assert that you glow so righteously in the dark I can spot your ass from orbit! Please, I beg you, go to church and then seek therapy. Only a full on death cultist/glowie/wind-up toy believes that there is no such thing as an objective reality and thus no such thing as proof.

I am not intending to insult you or anything but I do lack the capacity to put this gently. There is an objective reality just as there is an objective morality. Learn about it, accept it, and adapt to win at the game we know as life. I want you and everyone I meet to win you see and right now I can tell you are going to lose and lose bigtime. I don't want to see that.

u are criticizing Carl Jung right now. he did way more than u ever will with ur bullshitting coping games.
life is not a game you win. you are a child who never grew up emotionally.
10-04-2021, 02:32 AM
roger557

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Fire

Between 0.5 and 1 percent of the general population is diagnosed with NPD, a figure that has remained about the same since the term was established in 1968. So unless you're arguing that ILIs are that rare, that means the majority of them aren't narcissistic.

Hello. The link in your signature doesn't work.
10-04-2021, 02:49 AM
Nightmare

Quote:

Originally Posted by roger557

Hello. The link in your signature doesn't work.

Just fixed it :) Thanks
10-04-2021, 03:28 AM
End

Quote:

Originally Posted by VewyScawwyNawcissist

u are criticizing Carl Jung right now. he did way more than u ever will with ur bullshitting coping games.
life is not a game you win. you are a child who never grew up emotionally.

I see a very sad picture here given this projection. You must have been wounded quite deeply by someone of my type. I am sorry about that. My kind can wound people quite deeply if we try after all.

I shall pray for your soul and for this wound of yours to be healed. I would seek psychological help, but don't trust any therapist that wants to put you on drugs. They don't actually help solve the root cause of the issues. "Happy pills" are not the cure for trauma. As I've said, attachment issues are usually the root of the problem and they are caused by traumas (and no amount of drugs will fix them either hence why you don't want/need them). Innocuous sounding ones as well I might add. I mean, what's the harm in rich parents shipping their kid off to a prestigious private school at age 5 for 8 hours a day and then a 5-star daycare center for a few more after that as they grow their business with the intent to pass it onto said kids? Plenty.

Say you got adopted at birth by the most loving, caring, attentive people you could possibly imagine and they do everything they can to make it obvious how deeply they treasure and love you. How could that result in crippling attachment issues? It does and I could go on for hours. These examples do this for reasons that'd take me an essay to lay out and let's be honest, those kids were the lucky ones in our modern society. Most of us had a far worse time of it growing up. I'd bet yourself included.
10-04-2021, 07:41 AM
VewyScawwyNawcissist

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Fire

Between 0.5 and 1 percent of the general population is diagnosed with NPD, a figure that has remained about the same since the term was established in 1968. So unless you're arguing that ILIs are that rare, that means the majority of them aren't narcissistic.

u dont understand statistics and factors. most narcs are not diagnosed. the diagnosed are only one representation of how the disroder is due to the bias of how everyone else thinks. with ILIs being covert and who knows what else
10-15-2021, 01:46 PM
Alomoes

Alright, I actually read this thread this time. Turning over a new leaf part 3, actually read the thread so you understand the context of people going about. Part four is actually responding when quoted. Maybe this will be a two for one, but I don't know.

I have to say, this is very entertaining.

First, we have the person who says yes ILI is narcissistic. I would agree, but only because I have reasoned that all victim type people are narcissistic. By definition, victims have no problem giving their entire being for someone else. Why? Is it perhaps that they are that desperate for attention? Yes. At least in my case, I have goals that are entirely altruistic, but also entirely self serving. Altruism for personal gain, if you would.

Now here is a question nobody has asked. Is narcissism the same as narcissistic personality disorder? In my own definition, the answer is no. Narcissism is putting yourself first. You want to be first in line, and develop strategies for doing so. The strategy devised is victimhood.

Delta and Alpha could care less, they are world affirming. They have no purpose to push onto the world, and tend to worry about enjoying the world's pleasures instead. Anyone who annoys them can go sod off.

In truth, both are kinds of narcissisms. So yeah the argument is pretty silly.

And now my personal responses to this thread's inhabitants.

Scrawny Narcisist

I believe you ought to reconsider your position on ILIs, IEEs, and other such folks. I understand that you are reluctant to, but you've only met the kind of ILI that is incredibly aggressive, and, dare I say, aristocratic. There is the kind that isn't fundamentally broken or recovering from being broken.

A word of warning. I understand you want your independence, however, it is dangerous to bite everyone you meet. Some will double down, and then you'll end up at war. You will lose. I've fought wars like this, and they do not end well. Sadly, you appear to be a veteran of these social wars, so disarming you might take a great deal of effort, but it's probably worth everyone here to do. You appear to have knowledge of the motivations of humanity. Comparing and contrasting notes should be mutually beneficial.

I'll start by saying I disagree with your statement that narcissists are often not diagnosed. Assuming it is narcissistic personality disorder, I would assume that diagnostic criteria has to do with the extreme cases, which are comparatively easy to diagnose. It is not narcissistic personality disorder to be a bully. It is not narcissistic personality disorder to be mean. It is narcissistic personality disorder when you are so skewed and warped in that way that you are self destructive. This is incredibly uncommon. A person with NPD is literally trying to cover their own inadequacies in a manner that might lend them to gross amounts of envy. This is to the detriment of their social standing. You seem to have the opinion that narcissists get what they want. No, they often are ostracized from society because their personality is that extreme. Like being that guy at your friends birthday party who steals presents.

End

You seem to have gone off the deep end a while back, and while I don't understand it, my condolences. It is apt for a 1 enneagram to act in this way where you search out and attempt to destroy all forms of evil. I have nothing to say as you seem to be handling it quite well by not blowing up at VSN. Good job.

Shazaam

You appear to have the tolerance of a god, and a head on your shoulders. That's fairly good in a place like this.

Ikdhf qkb

I would recommend learning the folk psychology of VSN. It's very well developed, and thus would prove useful for comparison to actual theory.

Finally, a blurb on truth. You all seem to pursue the truth like rabid dogs, and guard it equally so. Why do you try and chase something that you cannot catch? Simply let it come to you, and then you can bask in its glory together, and you'll all probably be a degree happier.

I am obligated to post these messages to people because of my ethical nature. I am aware it's of a quality. Hopefully it is acceptable to the group here. It took a lot of concentration to read through all that, and is taking a lot of concentration to sift through all these unfamiliar names. If I mixed you up with someone else, my apologies, I believe I haven't, however my mind is quite scatterbrained, and I make mistakes constantly. The reason for that is a tangent, and I've already spent a good three hours writing this up. My first post in a while, I think I did better than before.
10-15-2021, 02:57 PM
Nightmare

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alomoes

Now here is a question nobody has asked. Is narcissism the same as narcissistic personality disorder? In my own definition, the answer is no. Narcissism is putting yourself first. You want to be first in line, and develop strategies for doing so.

I didn't ask because I knew the answer. It's not the same. However, traits of narcissism are the same as those of narcissistic personality disorder. In order to be diagnosed, one must feel a subjective sense of suffering from these narcissistic traits. Most of the time they don't, they're fine with being that way. You can't diagnose someone for being an asshole. That is not what a disorder is. Narcissism is basically just a set of traits, which exist on a spectrum. Narcissistic personality disorder is experiencing difficulty because of those traits.
10-17-2021, 09:01 PM
Alomoes

That's debatable, see, not all narcissists are assholes and not all assholes are narcissists.