Which Types/Dual Pairs are the most “Independent”

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Originally Posted by myresearch

T can also have values and form ethical rules using T, T isn't only useful in terms of understanding thermodynamics. However, they are not good at knowing how to affect people's emotion and how to get close to them.

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Not productive ones it doesn't. If you try to go the Kant route you don't get anywhere a healthy person would accept; Kantian ethics applied to certain hypothetical situations lead to monstrous outcomes. Not enough about the psyche is known from a scientific perspective to be able to devise an comprehensive ethical system like Kant attempted.

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You may like or may not like what every T type does. T types solve and do things, hence it is more needed. Things go more smoothly and nicer when F types around, their people skills can change things a lot, however, its effect is more hidden rather than apparent, so people are more prone to want them and not need them.

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Needed for what? What kind of world is being built by T types? More and more people are prescribed antidepressants each year; most everyone else is addicted to screens; kids in the West are getting dumber. Whatever humanity is progressing toward with this generous assistance of T types, I don't want a part in it.

There are plenty of stupid and evil F types, but unless we can collectively determine some other ethical values besides mere survival, we're heading to a dark place.

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Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman

Not productive ones it doesn't. If you try to go the Kant route you don't get anywhere a healthy person would accept; Kantian ethics applied to certain hypothetical situations lead to monstrous outcomes. Not enough about the psyche is known from a scientific perspective to be able to devise an comprehensive ethical system like Kant attempted.

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I haven't tried Kant's route or someone else's route, this is not what I meant at all. I have my own opinions about people and ethics. You also have yours. In terms of socionics, T types form these things using T.

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Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman

Needed for what? What kind of world is being built by T types? More and more people are prescribed antidepressants each year; most everyone else is addicted to screens; kids in the West are getting dumber. Whatever humanity is progressing toward with this generous assistance of T types, I don't want a part in it.

There are plenty of stupid and evil F types, but unless we can collectively determine some other ethical values besides mere survival, we're heading to a dark place.

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World isn't built by T types alone. They would eat each other alive while they were building it if they were alone.

Can't you see what Ti and Te can be needed for? Can you try to answer your own questions first before you ask them?

My mother's siblings are F types and she can be rude and insensitive at times, although she means well. However, when my grandparents need something, when they are sick, when there are lots of things to be done, drive them to hospital, talk with doctor, get medicine, drive them back, go to grocery store, buy things, manage their finances, etc she does the most of it. My aunts seem shaken emotionally and incapable of doing things. Besides that, she also works, she is doing so many things in a day. She get things done when they have to be done by someone. It is her.

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Originally Posted by myresearch

I haven't tried Kant's route or someone else's route, this is not what I meant at all. I have my own opinions about people and ethics. You also have yours. In terms of socionics, T types form these things using T.

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I have no idea what you mean to say here.

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Can't you see what Ti and Te can be needed for? Can you try to answer your own questions first before you ask them?

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Of course I can. But I also see that application of thought should be subordinate to ethical considerations.

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Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman

I have no idea what you mean to say here.

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I mean T/F aim for the same thing but approach it from opposite sides. Hence, you can see Te criterias, Ti rules that explains F values. When I see how F approach to data and work, I see the reverse of this.

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Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman

Of course I can. But I also see that application of thought should be subordinate to ethical considerations.

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I agree. As I said, their contribution is more hidden, F is less straightfoward, however, ofcourse it is important. Besides, I would prefer to be wanted than needed, they must enjoy from this at some level.

The things you find wrong generally caused by other things rather than T/F cognition imo. Both T and F can be used for wrong reasons and exploitation and when you see masses acting in a certain way and manipulated in a certain way both T and F cause this.

The healthier relationships seem to be when partners have a fair amount of autonomy from one another. Dependence is related to someone's baggage not type, and although dependent relationships can last a lifetime, there's usually something unhealthy lurking within them.

a.k.a. I/O

I'm guessing the reply to your question depends on the task(s) at hand and whether they "are of one heart".

Bonnie & Clyde were duals. They committed crimes then executed together. They met during the depression, were united by the crime (which sustained their particular livelihood) and likely "of one heart."

I call Romeo & Juliet on its BS. Sounds insane, but true romance was Bonnie & Clyde. Be interesting if they were never shot but hit the 1940s. Would they be criminals? Dunno

They were young, desperate (given the particular era) & had friends. Without the friends, my guess is they'd have done dirty shit together anyway.

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Originally Posted by Stray Cat

.......Bonnie & Clyde were duals.....

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These two likely had so much baggage due to their upbringings and circumstances that type would have been difficult to determine; most of what is known about them is hearsay and retold tales. Clyde may have been a sociopath if not both of them so their relationship would likely have had many unhealthy elements.

a.k.a. I/O

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Originally Posted by Eudaimonia

Now I want to go through all 8 of the dual relationships and rate them lol.

Alpha:

ILE - SEI: ILE needs SEI way more than the SEI need them.

LII - ESE: Pretty balanced. Both are pretty self sufficient. ESE may be a gold digger though.

Beta:

EIE - LSI: pretty balanced. EIE same as ESE but more useless and more gold digging.

SLE - IEI: No hope for IEI lol, SLE does not need the IEI but loves them anyway.


Gamma:

ILI - SEE: Pretty balanced. SEE may actually rely on the ILI more.

LIE - ESI: Pretty balanced, ESI may be tactically dependent i.e. getting pregnant to make a guy stay with them (Gone Girl), forcing someone into marriage, tricking LIE into paying off their debts by playing the damsel. Too harsh? lol maybe.

Delta:

LSE - EII: Pretty balanced, EII may have trouble asserting themselves in their career though.

IEE - SLI: IEE is a wildcard, but more often than not they will rely on the SLI. I've seen IEEs try to push SLIs to do what they really want to do in life though.

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I agree in pretty much everything except LIE - ESI, because I've seen LIEs actually forcing ppl into marriage. I also have known about ESIs going crazy and yell and scold their husbands because they came home late and drunk or something like that.

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Originally Posted by Akira

I agree in pretty much everything except LIE - ESI, because I've seen LIEs actually forcing ppl into marriage. I also have known about ESIs going crazy and yell and scold their husbands because they came home late and drunk or something like that.

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Hmm interesting, yeah I can see that. I was being too hard on the ESI lol, I love them.

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Originally Posted by BandD

IEI can be dramatic and emotionally manipulate people that we are more sensitive than we really are.

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This is why I don't trust them neither believe in one single of their tantrums (I mean from all ethicals). Most of the dramas kicked out by F come from wounded ego/pride and are meant just to get things their way. About IEI, I wonder if Sle eat this to some extent. Though, Sles can also love to kick a fuss often (I Guess they like or need drama to a degree).

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Originally Posted by Eudaimonia

Hmm interesting, yeah I can see that. I was being too hard on the ESI lol, I love them.

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I think both are pretty controlling (as most of the J types/couples I've met). I think most j types expect for their partner to follow up certain rules or role in the Relation.

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This is why I don't trust them neither believe in one single of their tantrums (I mean from all ethicals). Most of the dramas kicked out by F come from wounded ego/pride and are meant just to get things their way.

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yeah but SLIs allow IEEs to manipulate them and just do boring physical things for them and be a dumb slave work-horse to an IEE's gaslight manipulations. =/

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Originally Posted by Akira

This is why I don't trust them neither believe in one single of their tantrums (I mean from all ethicals). Most of the dramas kicked out by F come from wounded ego/pride and are meant just to get things their way.

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This is interesting. One, because I have seen it happen and I find it very strange. Two, it makes me wonder if I do this a lot. I’ve had an IEE friend that would tell me about a situation that she was having with others. I would then ask her “Alright, what did you do?/What did you do to instigate it?”. She would get sheepish and explain after that. Only twice I have remember doing this and I still feel bad about it. But that was often done after thinker types were manipulating my feelings.

I don't need SEE to do something for me, but I need them to push me to do something.

SEE can be very bossy, enjoy ordering people around. They may annoy some people, but for an ILI who being too lazy to do anything, it's may just exactly what he/she needs.

I think the whole point of 4DFe-4DTi dual relationships is that the 4D Ti doesn't care enough to put oil on the fire and stays cool-headed, which is the only way to deal with 4D Fe.

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Originally Posted by BandD

yeah but SLIs allow IEEs to manipulate them and just do boring physical things for them and be a dumb slave work-horse to an IEE's gaslight manipulations. =/

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I think in dual relationships the extrovert always tries to influence the introvert, SLE-IEI duality isn't that different in that regard. IEI love to be forced to do stuff, and SLE secretly love to be bossy and force people to be active.

DarkAngelFireWolf69:

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In the event of internal disagreements between the partners, the "Business-like"(4D Te) partner, as an extrovert, actively influences the "Sincere"(4D Fi) partner, who without much resistance yields to his influence.

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In this day and age, it's would be wise for even dual partners to have a Plan B in case things don't work out, which means having and retaining a certain amount of personal independence. Being able to generally support oneself independently is not type related. One should be on the lookout for potentially dependent suitors because they tend to drain relationships even when they're dual. Duality, by itself, is certainly no guarantee of happy-ever-after, and will likely not be the solution to existing personal woes. It refers more to a probability that each partner “might” be able to tolerate and perhaps benefit from the other's thinking processes and insight, if a multitude of other things also line up.

a.k.a. I/O

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Originally Posted by Rebelondeck

These two likely had so much baggage due to their upbringings and circumstances that type would have been difficult to determine; most of what is known about them is hearsay and retold tales. Clyde may have been a sociopath if not both of them so their relationship would likely have had many unhealthy elements.

a.k.a. I/O

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How do I know you aren't likely an autistic who pulls theories out of his ass that stupid people buy into?

You don't know for sure and are basically attempting to prove your intelligence through unreliable information. Hearsay, my ass. The facts are available if you read through the actual evidence, rather than relying on your existing systems of thought

Clyde may have been sociopathic but a decent fragment of our population may be on the sociopathic spectrum. If unhealthy elements were any indication then socionics may as well be BS, considering that becoming psychologically unhealthy is easier than catching a cold

Edit:. Not saying you are autistic. Simply saying I could theorize that you are if I thought I was smart enough to label you that way.

I'm wondering if DCNH has something to do with this. The C-H duality is probably more independent than D-N duality. Probably two C's is the most independent combination. Note that I don't fully understand what is meant by "independent". When two people love each other they naturally want to spend time together. I guess it refers to financial independence, or independence of interests :? It might mean something different to different people.

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Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman

kids in the West are getting dumber.

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I think the fault mainly is how crappy children cartoons are nowadays. Sometimes while zapping I take a look at what cartoons kids watch these days, and most are horrible. Wacky, strange stuff, with cleverly/pseudo-witty dialogue... there are no values, no magic, no good stories.

It's how education is systemized in the US. In many other countries they go to school year-round and don't have such long of breaks and put more emphasis on being smart, and being intelligent isn't looked down upon as much culturally. Also in US if you go through official schooling it often doesn't mean much because you are easily passed over for work for people that have no degrees or little experience just because somebody liked them better for whatever Fi reason. In other countries they also even pay the person for going to school and more incentive to get smarter/educated rather than the other way around. Which results in somebody wasting their hard-earned income with what most likely amounts to something useless and expensive.

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Originally Posted by MissDucki

I would then ask her “Alright, what did you do?/What did you do to instigate it?”. She would get sheepish and explain after that.

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LMAO this made laugh. I'm sad to say I related to this lol.

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Originally Posted by lkdhf qkb

I think the whole point of 4DFe-4DTi dual relationships is that the 4D Ti doesn't care enough to put oil on the fire and stays cool-headed, which is the only way to deal with 4D Fe.



I think in dual relationships the extrovert always tries to influence the introvert, SLE-IEI duality isn't that different in that regard. IEI love to be forced to do stuff, and SLE secretly love to be bossy and force people to be active.

DarkAngelFireWolf69:

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This is interesting. I’ve found ILE to be a bit “forceful” in some ways but not as much as SLE. ILE seem to be a pit more pushy with their ideas and words while SLE it’s more the logic “aggression” behind it. I personally don’t mind yielding but I need a strong logical understand/conviction to yield and it seems to be a little different to that of the IEI’s in a way. It’s like a more stronger pull to be pulled out of Ni. ILE need to take Si above the clouds a little so the conviction is a little different.

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Originally Posted by Eudaimonia

LMAO this made laugh. I'm sad to say I related to this lol.

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:eyes: I see you 4D Fe types

/SLE forces me to do something
/I still don't do it...

Duality fail.

I find it interesting that you guys are a little against “independence”. I’ve always assumed people want “extreme independence” in relationships and there are just a few rare ones that want to be close lol. It seems I keep running into the wrong people. I think all types want some independence but it matters to each what they need personally. I don’t mind being dependant on, especially when it comes to my strengths and feelings. That doesn’t bug me. The only thing that ever scares me is merging with someone, I need to still feel like me and go do my own thing. I need space. Like 80 closeness/20 freedom.

I think thinker types are a lot more independent until they get a significant other (especially a feeler) and they appear much more dependant on their partner. I feel like feelers are naturally I tuned and used to depending/ being depended on emotionally it’s not AS bad for them so they are able to separate both themselves and feelings a little bit easier and keep independence in that atmosphere. My thinker type friends tend to stick it out more then my feeler friends in that sense. Not that they are not independent, but I noticed once they get a feeler taste it’s like crack for them lol.

I have a different view on “independence” and “dependence” in relationships now. Thank you guys.

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Originally Posted by MissDucki

I find it interesting that you guys are a little against “independence”. I’ve always assumed people want “extreme independence” in relationships and there are just a few rare ones that want to be close lol. It seems I keep running into the wrong people. I think all types want some independence but it matters to each what they need personally. I don’t mind being dependant on, especially when it comes to my strengths and feelings. That doesn’t bug me. The only thing that ever scares me is merging with someone, I need to still feel like me and go do my own thing. I need space. Like 80 closeness/20 freedom.

I think thinker types are a lot more independent until they get a significant other (especially a feeler) and they appear much more dependant on their partner. I feel like feelers are naturally I tuned and used to depending/ being depended on emotionally it’s not AS bad for them so they are able to separate both themselves and feelings a little bit easier and keep independence in that atmosphere. My thinker type friends tend to stick it out more then my feeler friends in that sense. Not that they are not independent, but I noticed once they get a feeler taste it’s like crack for them lol.

I have a different view on “independence” and “dependence” in relationships now. Thank you guys.

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As a feeler I find that this is something I struggle with. I am not independent at all. I actually thought it would be the reverse, where thinkers wouldn't have that issue but maybe not

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Originally Posted by BandD

It's how education is systemized in the US. In many other countries they go to school year-round and don't have such long of breaks and put more emphasis on being smart, and being intelligent isn't looked down upon as much culturally. Also in US if you go through official schooling it often doesn't mean much because you are easily passed over for work for people that have no degrees or little experience just because somebody liked them better for whatever Fi reason. In other countries they also even pay the person for going to school and more incentive to get smarter/educated rather than the other way around. Which results in somebody wasting their hard-earned income with what most likely amounts to something useless and expensive.

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There's also the fact that education in this country is terrible and doesn't serve any purpose besides inflating people's egos. Why should anyone take education into account when hiring when it's effectively meaningless? If anyone knows anything, it's by teaching themselves.

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Originally Posted by BandD

/SLE forces me to do something
/I still don't do it...

Duality fail.

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I always think SLE is the one who do everything lol. IEI is like the girls from Dark Soul trilogy and Bloodborne, just stand there and give some prophecy-like dialog and let the player kill all the bosses.

SEE and ILI is different because they are either strong Te or strong Se, each of them can do something productive alone.

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I always think SLE is the one who do everything lol. IEI is like the girls from Dark Soul trilogy and Bloodborne, just stand there and give some prophecy-like dialog and let the player kill all the bosses.

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probably yeah. I view pushiness and external force as Te because Te has a lot of mobility and speed attached to it. I wish I was more productive and I want to do more things but at my own pace sort of thing. Would probably be very annoying to a lot of Gammas.

in the RPG game I'm making- I have powerful spells that often effects multiple enemies/allies but I have a low agi stat so I'm kinda co-dependent on other people casting Haste on me and I need to control the situation so I'm not overwhelmed & KO'ed by Te's demonic speediness and asshole 'get it done!' businessman ness.

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Originally Posted by fatgurl

As a feeler I find that this is something I struggle with. I am not independent at all. I actually thought it would be the reverse, where thinkers wouldn't have that issue but maybe not

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Everyone is different. This is just my hard and fast rule that I’ve notice with myself and others. I don’t have a lot of close feeler friends. A lot of them of them have been thinkers and I have a lot of close thinker/feeler family members. I’ve always felt comfortable/independent in terms of feelings. I find it easier to move close and far even though it hurts sometimes. But that’s just me. My Dad is an ESI and he is more dependant on people for sure.

I was thinking about this thread, I am not independent. I am really dependent. I'm not really good at real life and ignore very important things because I simply don't want to pay attention to them. I hand a lot of control over to my partner.