Stigma towards beta types

It has edged me, but I need speak upon how hated beta types are.

I for a long while rejected being a beta NF as result if how betas are viewed. EIE's are seen as dramatic attention seeker who make everyone's life hell, SLE as aggressors, violent beaters and criminal.

Then IEI is deemed as "useless" by many. I cannot tell you how many times I have encountered hate for being an IEI in Socionics discord server. And I do not want hear of the justification how it just is Quadric clash. To hate on a system that is tool for betterment, and is not defining of a human by its own self, is putrid, immature, and abuse of its purpose.

What are your experiences in being harassed for being a beta type? Have you bore witness to the absurdities that go with out Quadra?

I have received harassment on personality database for being an IEI, what once had been synthesis, and as well, psych, despite having friends there... It mostly is gammas who give me hard time for being IEI, mostly ILI-Te's. They bully me on my Te and try consciously at times, make me feel useless and undermine my worth. I have noticed many ILI have a superiority complex. They trash Beta NF in particularly... I am not saying all ILI-Te are like this of course but it has been a very consistent pattern. It is probably having do with beta NF being weaker in Te.. You would think the delta would give harder time being completely in opposition of our function, but this has not been case from what I have seen.

I know the kindred are supposed to be competitive as well with one another.

The quadras are an interesting concept to think about but I don’t think they’re very useful for understanding individual people. They seem to explore what it means to be human and what makes us unique as a species, what instincts drive us and how our self-awareness helps us or hinders us from managing those instincts. The quadras can’t exist without each other. Perhaps Beta can be seen to represent the most central part of what it means to be human, the simple energy of being alive. Human weakness and greatness. People hate on so called ‘betas’ because they want to blame their own weaknesses on someone else. In reality, we are responsible for bringing each other down and raising each other up. We are all the quadras..

I also want make it clear that I do not have an issue with any of the communities in which I mentioned I have before been harassed on. I am friends with people on all 3, some friends even being mods.. I am not here to tarnish name of any community, but what I am here for is to admonish how others think they just can go about spilling stains unto others.

All those stereotypes don't matter. Anyone who has read enough about the subject will reject the stereotypes.

It is not a good idea to talk about socionics, with people who don't know socionics. Unless you teach them.

The worst harassment actually, was on a server I would not rather name, where a bunch of people gang up on others as part of their server approach.. It is not one of the 3 enlisted... And they were just typing me as EIE to harass me and as well, to basically say I am useless and pathetic.. I have screenshots, that I need not share, but it was very ugly.

And they berated my LII friend who I am close to, yet they did not make fun of his type or harass him for being LII...

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Originally Posted by BaruchJorgell

All those stereotypes don't matter. Anyone who has read enough about the subject will reject the stereotypes.

It is not a good idea to talk about socionics, with people who don't know socionics. Unless you teach them.

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I do agree, but you have many people at a general within the Socionics community who do not as seriously partake in its true usage. They do it for memes, stereotype.. And they know just enough about Socionics to where they can type people, but they often are biased. Psych seems like the best server in terms of Socionics, with its serious taking, but the person who is best at Socionics more than anyone I know, is a guy named Stugg who is moderator on personality database.

Stugg actually helped me to come to terms with being an IEI, and I could not exactly see how I was Ni ignoring, but he pointed out of how I am. He just supervises me a bit too much though, lol (LIE-Ni).

Every type of the socion fills specific roles. EIE are not useless, nor pathetic (well, they can be if they want to), obviously. Many people on this forum certainly wish they were EIE.

I don't know where you met such people, but if I were you, I would never go back there.

These people are on numerous Socionics server. It is not just one server... You have people everywhere in all community who misuse typology and weaponize it... But the most I ever have seen it on, is on personality data base and also on the server I refuse to enlist, as that server is horrible and the people there are vile. I do not need drama with hat server.

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Originally Posted by BaruchJorgell

Every type of the socion fills specific roles. EIE are not useless, nor pathetic (well, they can be if they want to), obviously. Many people on this forum certainly wish they were EIE.

I don't know where you met such people, but if I were you, I would never go back there.

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I am an IEI (which maybe you know, just were referring to fact they used it as insult), but even people always give me crap for that, again, mostly on personality database.. The only reason why I have contact still on personality database, is because I have a few friends on there, and some are moderator as well.. Plus I am not going to let someone's crappy view of me and a type that does not even en-capture the entire essence of someone, affect me to that level. I at day's end am confident of my own abilities, but the harassment just goes everywhere and it became enough. Rain that never stops down poring, and then you eventually catch hypothermia from not having any shelter and the weather gets more cold.

I haven't explored every corner of the Internet, but in my opinion, this forum is by far the best place to talk about socionics (unless you can read russian). But even here, you will come across a lot of misconceptions.

Edit : the best typing, unless you can meet a socionist in person, is the self-typing. The problem being that your self-typing will probably be wrong until you know enough. You can send a video interview to V. DarkAngelFireWolf69, but it's 120$, and a correct typing is likely, but uncertain (the format deprives the socionist from asking additional questions, and to see your instant reaction...).

I do actually think I am an IEI.. I was too lazy for awhile to immerse into Socionics and just let others type me, but despite, I held unto EII as a typing for a very long time and no one thought I was EII. I got ridiculed for my EII self-typing, and did not care, went with it anyhow. But I do actually see how I am IEI. It is murky at glance, because you see all this Ne.. I am MBTI INFP... But in actuality, I do indeed narrow things down, and I look for the hidden meaning within all things. I also have caught my own thought process of how I look through past signs thought day, to construct and reach a forecasting narrative.

Well, I have a strong mouth. I'm shy and soft and sensitive and all that (like most IEIs are) but I can cut people down with words. I admit my mouth has gotten me into a lot of trouble. I don't always let assholes make me cry like my ESE mom does. I fight back. I teach Alphas how to fight too. It's how Beta improves Alpha.

Also idk how Beta this is but I am really good at seeing through people how much of an asshole they really are despite their credentials or whatever and I think they don't like that I can see through them in this way. So some people have tried to destroy my reputation before I could destroy theirs. <ewg>

IEI has been called 'manipulative' too and I agree I can be very manipulative, but only if I need to be or if I'm around somebody that wants to sadistically hurt me or trap me in some way. I don't get some campy villainous joy by being manipulative for manipulation sake. No real person is a Saturday Day Morning cartoon villain like that. I think you kind of have to be manipulative in the real world in many situations anyway. The real world to a large extent runs on manipulation so I don't understand getting down on IEIs for being this way.

IEIs are lazy/useless- this is kind of just IP energy working as intended mixed with being both a feeling and intuitive type. I will try to do an activity and 'work hard' but I do get exhausted more easily than other people. ISFps can hide behind being sensors, INTps/ISTps are usually pouring their energy into something more practical and Te anyway but IEI it's going to look the most this way objectively probably. I noticed this happened even when I had a better and more jock-ish body. I just easily drained my energy more than most people and just wanted to go inside and write/create something rather than do some Ej activity.

SLEs are criminals and bad boys - this stereotype can have a lot of truth to it lol. I have been told that I'm too nice and forgiving to people like this and they couldn't believe it. "Don't you want to watch them suffer in some prison where some Delta asshole authority figure is cruel to them because they themselves have been cruel?" But I don't think that's how society should be run. I do think actions should have consequences, but I'm probably more lenient than most.

Discord doesn’t seem like a place where people tend to go for serious discussion, and I’d guess that many of the people who spend so much time on a website like that with constant stimulation are particularly susceptible to groupthink. In any case, people like that aren’t worth spending your time with or caring what they think.

Each type tends to have certain weaknesses and strengths; that’s fundamental to Socionics. @one mentioned LII being a “prestige” type, but if you interact with many IRL it’s easy to see they tend to have certain personal flaws and weaknesses (like passivity, a reluctance to engage people, getting pissy when challenged, a certain inflexibility in thinking), and that Ti is more a way of approaching problems than raw intelligence in itself; there are plenty of dumb LxI. Most “prestige” stuff like this seems to me to come from MBTI, which has historically depicted some types as geniuses capable of pretty much anything (NTs) or sensitive, artistic flowers (NFs), and all other types as worker bees all but incapable of intelligent or introspective thought (S). Of course that mentality tends to appeal to teenagers or people that have never progressed beyond a teenager mentality themselves, but it’s obvious this isn’t how people work. If people seriously think this way — taking an unrealistically singleminded view of certain types — they can’t really be interested in understanding how people work, but are interested in typology for other reasons, like feeding their egos. Keeping that in mind it’s generally best to avoid those kinds of people, since you presumably have different goals, it’s unlikely you’ll change their minds, and they’ll just continue to insult you if you carry on with them.

Franklin D. Roosevelt was U.S. president during the Great Depression. He was SLE, re-elected 3 times.
John F. Kennedy was an SLE & folk were pretty butt hurt when he got whacked
Trump is SLE who behaves like a stupid f*cktard publicly

Point is, different generations call for different types of leadership. Today's generation wants Ne-egos in leadership cause they're perceived as gentler, weaker & easier to campaiin childish ideals through.

I personally believe each quadratic plays a "vital" role. They're different but necessary for the socion to function optimally. I actually read that IEI is the bridge who connects Alpha's ideas into Beta quadra so Beta can adequately play its role in the Socion

IEIs are useful where most people are useless.
Also, about the bullying, just give them a taste of their own medicine, since they obviously don't take socionics seriously. Have a spicy insult brainstorming sesh with your friends on the servers :hello:

Some of my fave musicians are Beta NF, so they're good for something:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn1bsusJ41w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDa4x7ue11E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9t5_yUNp0bg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m--K4w9M7uU

And also European, so that adds to the weirdness.

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Originally Posted by DEAD

Some of my fave musicians are Beta NF, so they're good for something:


And also European, so that adds to the weirdness.

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nice taste

I wonder if the Beta stigma thing has also something to do with how much of socionics language is written in a very Fi/Te way I think, and probably is like very EII/IEE Delta in how it's represented.

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Originally Posted by MrInternet42069

On a more serious note I don't think there is stigma towards Beta types, this is some typology snowflake bs

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There is. On Socionics servers mostly... I cannot speak for this community, but absolutely on servers.

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Originally Posted by MrInternet42069

On a more serious note I don't think there is stigma towards Beta types, this is some typology snowflake bs

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Can show you screenshots if you add me on discord, or can invite you to servers later on and you can type it in and see...

Unless maybe you mean that you think beta has earned the stigma around it, but I think you genuinely do not know about it.

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Originally Posted by MrInternet42069

On a more serious note I don't think there is stigma towards Beta types, this is some typology snowflake bs

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It seems like a lot of people here are oblivious as to Socionics servers.. Which is surprising to me, considering there are not many Socionics community. This website appears as the staple community. But there are quite a lot of people on the servers, including leaders of Socionics; Andrey Joynson, Ibrahim, Jack, amidst other people. (These people do not propagate stigma, that is not what I mean in bringing them up, I just mean that I am surprised not as may people know with how luminaries of this topic are active within said communities).

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Originally Posted by Karanime

It seems like a lot of people here are oblivious as to Socionics servers.. Which is surprising to me, considering there are not many Socionics community. This website appears as the staple community. But there are quite a lot of people on the servers, including leaders of Socionics; Andrey Joynson, Ibrahim, Jack, amidst other people. (These people do not propagate stigma, that is not what I mean in bringing them up, I just mean that I am surprised not as may people know with how luminaries of this topic are active within said communities).

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It might be that these people aren't really considered "leaders of Socionics" over here.

I just don't care if someone considered me aggressive. In fact, I take it as a matter of pride. These wimps who is offended about Beta being intense and coming off too strong need to stop being pussies. Part of me being an enneagram 8w7 is actually liking to be bad guy. This is opposed to being an enneagram 1, 2, or 6 who wants to be a goody two shoes. I don't get harassed about being an SLE and I just don't worry about the stereotypes. It doesn't concerned me. To be honest, being an SLE in a Socionics community or server might give me a free pass and maybe some understanding on why I am that way.

I get along with those in my fellow quadra: EIE might be stereotyped as "dramatic attention seeker who make everyone's life hell" but they are fun to be with. In the Transcendence discord, it's the EIE who maintain the emotional atmosphere where I am insensitive and coarse. Also, EIE build off from me and I actually enjoy a good emotional atmosphere where I could be my coarse and blunt self. As for IEI being "useless," they ain't useless to me. When enneagram 4 IEI act all victimy and tell about their sad stories, they could surely help me find innocence in someone.

If anything, I would argued that judicious type (Si/Ne) valuers are stereotyped just as bad or even worse than being a Beta. Alphas are stereotyped in the Socionics community as watching anime all day and being childish. Deltas are stereotyped as basically boring-ass Hank Hill who carve wood all day.

I have many Beta friends including my boss (LSI) and childhood friends. The problem is we never build a psychologically close and warm relationship. I say this through the lense of Fi- my perception on my interpersonal relationships.

The above superhighlights my :Fi:

“ DOMINANT FIELDS OF ACTIVITY AND TOPICS OF CONVERSATION
relationships between people
evaluating people (personality and character traits) and their deeds and conduct
evaluating the motives behind behavior
empathy; the ability to feel what others feel and understand their motives”

Betas are evil, so they deserve all the hate they get

Sane chill Betas fly under the radar and pass for something else.

SLE -> LSI/LSE
LSI -> ILI/SLI
EIE -> IEI/IEE
IEI -> EII/SEI

Loud annoying ones leave an impression in your mind that sticks there forever.
All it takes is one or two jackasses to prove the stereotype.

Lets be honest Betas gone bad are fucking trainwrecks.

There is certainly a bias against "sensors" generally, which I often hold myself including consciously at least in general terms (not so much with specific people). I think :Se: and :Fe: are often seen as brash, obvious, shallow, which are traits that are easier to hate than more passive traits like silence or sloth.

Outside Socionics, in the Big Five, there is an obvious bias towards "Extroversion", "Openness to Experience", "Agreeableness", and "Conscientiousness" (and in the HEXACO, for the additional sixth factor of Honesty-humility), not just in Western society but in the academic world too. Arguably, models that have traits which are social desirable (or at least, are described that way) should be avoided, but an alternative may exclude a lot of human behaviour.

I'd agree there is definitely some bias against Beta types. Even back then when I started my interest in Socionics, a lot of people on the forums (the Polish one, that is - to my knowledge - down for the time being) seen Beta ST as especially harmful, abusive, scary and "criminal". There's also been a running gag between the users that EIE are attention seekers.

You quite surprised me with the stereotype of IEI being useless. I cannot say for myself, because I've never been active on international personality typing forums before this forum, but on the Polish forums IEIs/INFPs were seen as rather harmony loving peacemakers who were masters at lifting the atmospheres up. It's another story how they are viewed in the society where Socionics isn't as popular, however. I have an impression IEIs especially are seen as people who behave between people well, and who also have a certain "smartness" about them in interpersonal relationships, who are able to survive various turmoils, but other than that I feel like they are seen as losers who need external help with managing their lives. Beta ST on the other hand is seen as intelligent, but cruel and menacing, "don't go near without a rod" as we here in Poland say.

I also think the values of Gamma quadra are seen as something that everybody is required to do when it comes to surviving in the real world and being successful, especially American/Western/capitalist values. This is why for the longest time I thought I was a SEI, simply because I never felt like I truly fit in here.

Maybe I've been living under a rock, but I have neither incurred quadra nor type hate. If I have, it must have been a very forgettable experience.

I really don't see any IEI hate anywhere. If there's one type that's openly shit on across the boards, it's ESE. Even see other Alpha's expressed disdain for ESEs.

beta has always been chic. also probably makes so many waves naturally enough to get numbed to the way people react to them

The stigma, if it comes form this website, is usually propagated by Alphas and Deltas as a stand in for everything bad, selfish, dramatic, colourful.

In real life betas can be pro social, or anti social, I use those terms poetically.

Its hilarious because LSI is like the central pillar of most polite Civic society. I mean LSE gets there, but even they are independent in a way that LSI just don't have.

If you look at very Delta leaning societies currently, Nordic Cultures of Scandinavia, Norway, Sweden, Finland, from what I'm told Betas are pushed to the fringe of society, they kind of hide out and are camouflaged.

Societies that are open to Beta socionic values, Italy, Russia, Brazil, much of Mexico, North Korea, China, Components of USA, there is not as much stigma associated with Fe + Se (the two dominating values with Ni as supplementary).

If anything I see more stigma associated with the gamma quadra than anything.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/02...g?v=1582216419

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Originally Posted by timber

The stigma, if it comes form this website, is usually propagated by Alphas and Deltas as a stand in for everything bad, selfish, dramatic, colourful.

In real life betas can be pro social, or anti social, I use those terms poetically.

Its hilarious because LSI is like the central pillar of most polite Civic society. I mean LSE gets there, but even they are independent in a way that LSI just don't have.

If you look at very Delta leaning societies currently, Nordic Cultures of Scandinavia, Norway, Sweden, Finland, from what I'm told Betas are pushed to the fringe of society, they kind of hide out and are camouflaged.

Societies that are open to Beta socionic values, Italy, Russia, Brazil, much of Mexico, North Korea, China, Components of USA, there is not as much stigma associated with Fe + Se (the two dominating values with Ni as supplementary).

If anything I see more stigma associated with the gamma quadra than anything.

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They are dramatic lol jk

I mean when I was pregnant I suffered through every day with complaints every day about how bad I was feeling how I was not getting any sleep and how much I was hurting. Every day I would complain but showed up to work and worked every day until the last day of pregnancy. While my IEI coworker 27 weeks into pregnancy told me "I'm ready to walk out today. i just can't do it!" and on and on about how the work was emotionally bothering her. Which of us was more dramatic? I don't know, both in different ways I would say. It's all perception.

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Originally Posted by inaLim

Sane chill Betas fly under the radar and pass for something else.

SLE -> LSI/LSE
LSI -> ILI/SLI
EIE -> IEI/IEE
IEI -> EII/SEI

Loud annoying ones leave an impression in your mind that sticks there forever.
All it takes is one or two jackasses to prove the stereotype.

Lets be honest Betas gone bad are fucking trainwrecks.

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Totally agree on this point. The IEI can seem so much like me when she's not pregnant, which is sympathetic, caring, asking about how the person is, except hugging. I hug more.

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Originally Posted by Beautiful sky

They are dramatic lol jk

I mean when I was pregnant I suffered through every day with complaints every day about how bad I was feeling how I was not getting any sleep and how much I was hurting. Every day I would complain but showed up to work and worked every day until the last day of pregnancy. While my IEI coworker 27 weeks into pregnancy told me "I'm ready to walk out today. i just can't do it!" and on and on about how the work was emotionally bothering her. Which of us was more dramatic? I don't know, both in different ways I would say. It's all perception.

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Exactly.

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Originally Posted by timber

Exactly.

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The work was all about our IJ/IP difference ;)

I was hired (ethics-they rely on me to do the job so I must! I must sacrifice myself for others despite what I feel physically); She: this pregnancy changes my reality of being a mother and this place makes me feel uncomfortable so i want out. I have the same future here...I don't want it.

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Originally Posted by Beautiful sky

The work was all about our IJ/IP difference ;)

I was hired (ethics-they rely on me to do the job so I must! I must sacrifice myself for others despite what I feel physically); She: this pregnancy changes my reality of being a mother and this place makes me feel uncomfortable so i want out. I have the same future here...I don't want it.

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Might be, would need more info. Lot's can influence behaviour and decision making.

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Originally Posted by Beautiful sky

I have many Beta friends including my boss (LSI) and childhood friends. The problem is we never build a psychologically close and warm relationship. I say this through the lense of Fi- my perception on my interpersonal relationships.

The above superhighlights my :Fi:

“ DOMINANT FIELDS OF ACTIVITY AND TOPICS OF CONVERSATION
relationships between people
evaluating people (personality and character traits) and their deeds and conduct
evaluating the motives behind behavior
empathy; the ability to feel what others feel and understand their motives”

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As an IEI, I disagree with this, I build very close relation, but my Fi is the best of any beta in the Quadra, our Fi not ignored and it also is strong. I also am an enneagram type 4 (and sexual in some system), and INFP by MBTI. The whole reason why I hate psychotherapy even os because you cannot get close enough to the therapist..

Any type that has Sx as their lead, will value relational intimacy. Fi just probably is more likely than Fe types to be Sx.

It is true that most beta have poor Fi; EIE ignores it directly, LSI has lit lower and is not of it, valuing, and SLE has it as PolR. But I have met an Sx 8 SLE who very much cares about making connection with others, even if he is more focused on harmony. An IEI is built of any beta to be best with Fi, since it does not ignore it, and it still is quite strong.

^(This by the way is another reason why I cannot be EIE>IEI; I do not ignore Fi at all). Despite coming off as Fe base.. Which that can explain through my subtype; IEI2Fe.

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Originally Posted by Karanime

Any type that has Sx as their lead, will value relational intimacy. Fi just probably is more likely than Fe types to be Sx.

It is true that most beta have poor Fi; EIE ignores it directly, LSI has lit lower and is not of it, valuing, and SLE has it as PolR. But I have met an Sx 8 SLE who very much cares about making connection with others, even if he is more focused on harmony. An IEI is built of any beta to be best with Fi, since it does not ignore it, and it still is quite strong.

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I would argued that SX instinctual variant falls more under the line of Se followed by Fe valuers than Fi valuers. Se is basically intensity of external sensation which is compatible with SX. Not to mention that there is a "loss of self" in SX instinctual variant. SX instinctual variant isn't relational connections. It's about feeling intensely (Fe+Se) which is strongly applied to Beta. SX 8s is literally the stereotypical SLE. It's aggressive and intense. You would see more SX 8s in SLE than SP and SO 8s. Betas, in general, are SX dominant. SX dominant are stereotyped as intense. Beta are also stereotyped as intense compared to other quadras. How SX and SLE are connected is that they are intense in everything they do. All or nothing is the slogan of SX dom.

I think SP instinctual variant are more likely to be Serious types (Fi/Te valuers) if anything. Self-Preservation 3s and 8s are cheapskates and thus look like Te valuers because materialism, costs/savings, and being business-like are Te traits. Self-Preservation 4s are less emotionally expressive than the other 4s (given that they are countertype), and this is where Gamma / Delta 4s are at. Not being concerned about the regulations of emotional states and external emotional expression, concerned about building unexpressed relations (like a Japanese businessman), and valuing money-making productivity and pragmatism are traits of Te/Ti valuers and it sounds more like SP/SO (i.e. an SX-blind type) rather than SX type. Self-Preservation 2s is basically @Beautiful sky and she's a Fi/Te valuing type (EII).

By the way, I'm SX/SP SLE and I'm not into making unexpressed social connections with others given that I'm SO-blind. I considered it part of Fi PoLR since there isn't any point of building relations with others especially if there isn't external emotional expression involved.

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Originally Posted by Karanime

^(This by the way is another reason why I cannot be EIE>IEI; I do not ignore Fi at all). Despite coming off as Fe base.. Which that can explain through my subtype; IEI2Fe.

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I am good at Ni too as an EII :) I can infer some wild predictions that arise out of nowhere and take a lot of alone time to “romanticize” I told an SEE one day “you like the scenery of the drive and are going to San Diego” he was so taken aback lol