How can an IEI be useful to SLE? + Ego death side effect of Dualizing

ESTp's are so perfect. They can do anything. They can cook, clean, garden, surf, row boats, shoot, hunt, survive without complaint in the wild, make a bedside table.
IEI"s are useless and we don't do anything :hide:

So called Dualisation has just brought impending doom upon me. An ego death to the max. A bundle of insecurity and self jabs. I kind of realized how crap my psycho-type is only when a SLE enters the picture. Their social skills aren't even as bad as I thought they'd be for a Fi PoLR, their blasé attitude is very endearing. So I can't even feel more competent in that aspect. Being an IEI is a cursed existence.

What the hell do we bring to the table? :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused: Why don't SLE score a hot and confident ESE instead? :confused2:

Ok so a few questions. First, if you are IEI, do you have something similar in the presence of an SLE? Do you feel bedazzled and paralyzed by their sheer competence, "can do" attitude, strength, everything. How do you deal with this. I cannot function in the presence of a god.

And secondly if you are another type or IEI yourself, what the hell does the IEI supply the SLE? How can IEI be useful to them? And it also be a fair exchange?

Is it an equal trade off (IEI helps soothe the SLE's mood swings, is all patient with their impulses and keeps them "happy", and the SLE is all practical and useful and physically motivated), because the SLE is good at and enjoys being active, but the IEI not as much, so it's actually no biggie *shrugs nonchalantly* for the both of them? Is that it?

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Originally Posted by Yesein

ESTp's are so perfect. They can do anything. They can cook, clean, garden

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Si
check your type

> Being an IEI is a cursed existence.

check your type

> Do you feel bedazzled and paralyzed by their sheer competence, "can do" attitude, strength, everything.

duality is IR which the least inspire negative self-perception

> How do you deal with this. I cannot function in the presence of a god.

in weak regions people often are below social average

> Is it an equal trade off (IEI helps soothe the SLE's mood swings

as example: Ni points better directions to apply Se will and Fe inspires emotions for this

ESTPs are not perfect. I've never met an SLE who could cook, clean, garden, surf, row boats, shoot, hunt and survive without complaint in the wild. And you might find their Fi polr endearing but most people don't. It's a pain in the ass for them just as much as your Te polr is a pain in the ass for you. I do think that duality is great but here you are idealizing your duals way too much.

You should look up threads about Fi polr on the forum. It might help you to understand how IEIs' Fi dem can help SLEs.

Please forget about all that stuff about IEIs having to keep SLEs happy and helping with their mood swings. This sounds a lot like submission and it's not the way to go. It's not your duty to make anyone happy.

When I think of my relationships with SLEs IRL I feel like I bring them the exact same thing that I bring to everybody else, they just seem more enthusiastic about it. Try to identify what you truly want to bring to someone in a relationship; that's what your dual will want to receive (and if they don't then they probably aren't the right dual for you).

True Story #1

SLE's are good at performing tasks in the here-and-now, but have some trouble with Ni and seeing where some of the things they are planning will lead.

SLE: " Hmm, I'm in my car in this gas station and I need some money. I have a gun in my glove compartment. There is money in the gas station. Problem solved."
Three minutes later, the SLE is back in his car, counting the money and thinking that he can now buy a new tire that he's needed for a while. Suddenly, three police cars with flashing lights pull into the station and surround him. He thinks, "WTF?"

IEI, who wasn't there three minutes ago to say "Don't do that, Marcus."

True Story #2

LIE meets SLE at class reunion.
LIE: Hi, SLE. You look good for a guy your age.
SLE: Yeah. Thanks. I'm teaching little league. It keeps me busy.
IEI zooms in from nowhere and says to LIE "Hi, have we met?" LIE sees that she's IEI, is happy for his friend who finally has a GF.
LIE: "No. Are you guys together?"
IEI, happily: "For three months!"
LIE: "Well, I think you guys are a perfect match."
SLE, dully: "Huh"
IEI, smiling: "Do you really think so?"
LIE: "I'm sure of it. There are only a couple of things that could come between you guys."
IEI moves between LIE and SLE, with a worried look: "Like what?"
LIE: "Well, you have a hard time in the real world. It's like you have one eye on the future and you miss what's happening around you. SLE can probably send you to the grocery store with a list for milk and steaks and you'll come back with two bathrobes."
SLE starts laughing. "That's totally true."
LIE, turns towards SLE buddy: "And you, your problem is that you might cheat."
IEI looks sharply at him, he demurs. "Yeah, I could see that."
LIE: "But you shouldn't. Because this woman is really fucking rare and the fact that you guys are together at all is kind of a miracle and if you screw it up, she's not going to give you a second chance and you'll never, ever find another woman who will love you like she does."
IEI and SLE look at each other, say nothing. LIE goes to get a drink.

That was four years ago. They are still together.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam Strange

SLE's are good at performing tasks in the here-and-now, but have some trouble with Ni and seeing where some of the things they are planning will lead.

SLE: " Hmm, I'm in my car in this gas station and I need some money. I have a gun in my glove compartment. There is money in the gas station. Problem solved."
Three minutes later, the SLE is back in his car, counting the money and thinking that he can now buy a new tire that he's needed for a while. Suddenly, three police cars with flashing lights pull into the station and surround him. He thinks, "WTF?"

IEI, who wasn't there three minutes ago to say "Don't do that, Marcus."

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I agree with @Adam Strange here.

I would say that even though I have an eye on the future, I very much have this sense of "act now, complete the tasks now" that I do not think an IxI normally has. I was so silly for ever thinking I was IEI, because I do not struggle to act. In fact, in a game like chess, I would say that I do not plan enough because I just react.

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Originally Posted by Sol

Si
check your type

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When someone said he liked "non-intelligent girls" you said that indicated T type. When you read someone admires a SLE that can cook and clean that indicates Si. Pick a non-verbal impression typing technique that is constant.

OP: when IEI and SLE are together, it seems they work better and complement when there is a goal, as would any other dyad. Read DarkAngelFireWolf69's description of that dyad, it's 80% what happens.

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Originally Posted by YXPR

ESTPs are not perfect. I've never met an SLE who could cook, clean, garden, surf, row boats, shoot, hunt and survive without complaint in the wild. And you might find their Fi polr endearing but most people don't. It's a pain in the ass for them just as much as your Te polr is a pain in the ass for you. I do think that duality is great but here you are idealizing your duals way too much.

You should look up threads about Fi polr on the forum. It might help you to understand how IEIs' Fi dem can help SLEs.

Please forget about all that stuff about IEIs having to keep SLEs happy and helping with their mood swings. This sounds a lot like submission and it's not the way to go. It's not your duty to make anyone happy.

When I think of my relationships with SLEs IRL I feel like I bring them the exact same thing that I bring to everybody else, they just seem more enthusiastic about it. Try to identify what you truly want to bring to someone in a relationship; that's what your dual will want to receive (and if they don't then they probably aren't the right dual for you).

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Idealizing duals way too much... yeah, you're right. I expressed a lot of vulnerability in this post. Possibly relevant is my age. I'm very young and sorely undeveloped. To see someone be able to do all the things I struggle with such as 4D Se and 4D Te has inspired an inferiority complex and a grandiose impression of the sociotype.

Never met an SLE that does all that? Well I currently live in a rural setting. That could play a role. I've met ESTp's that live in the city and they do not have the arsenal of hobbies like this one does. Yeah, I guess I can see how Fi PoLR would be just as bad to them as Te is to me, I just ignore the occasional rudeness and uncouth outbursts, as well as the explosive and sudden way their insecurities manifest. I can tell that it is hell for them and they hate themselves for being bad at it but also cannot use the function properly. An ancedote that has suddenly come to mind is an ILE gave a compliment that was sweet enough in words - "You look cool", but the delivery was very aggressive and abrupt.

Thanks for your advice, I'l be pondering over it

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Originally Posted by Sol

Si
check your type

> Being an IEI is a cursed existence.

check your type

> Do you feel bedazzled and paralyzed by their sheer competence, "can do" attitude, strength, everything.

duality is IR which the least inspire negative self-perception

> How do you deal with this. I cannot function in the presence of a god.

in weak regions people often are below social average

> Is it an equal trade off (IEI helps soothe the SLE's mood swings

as example: Ni points better directions to apply Se will and Fe inspires emotions for this

---

Too little words used and ambiguity. I don't know exactly what you mean by all this. For example I don't know if you commented Si as being related to the nature of those activities or insinuating Si is a valued function of mine

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam Strange

True Story #1

SLE's are good at performing tasks in the here-and-now, but have some trouble with Ni and seeing where some of the things they are planning will lead.

SLE: " Hmm, I'm in my car in this gas station and I need some money. I have a gun in my glove compartment. There is money in the gas station. Problem solved."
Three minutes later, the SLE is back in his car, counting the money and thinking that he can now buy a new tire that he's needed for a while. Suddenly, three police cars with flashing lights pull into the station and surround him. He thinks, "WTF?"

IEI, who wasn't there three minutes ago to say "Don't do that, Marcus."

True Story #2

LIE meets SLE at class reunion.
LIE: Hi, SLE. You look good for a guy your age.
SLE: Yeah. Thanks. I'm teaching little league. It keeps me busy.
IEI zooms in from nowhere and says to LIE "Hi, have we met?" LIE sees that she's IEI, is happy for his friend who finally has a GF.
LIE: "No. Are you guys together?"
IEI, happily: "For three months!"
LIE: "Well, I think you guys are a perfect match."
SLE, dully: "Huh"
IEI, smiling: "Do you really think so?"
LIE: "I'm sure of it. There are only a couple of things that could come between you guys."
IEI moves between LIE and SLE, with a worried look: "Like what?"
LIE: "Well, you have a hard time in the real world. It's like you have one eye on the future and you miss what's happening around you. SLE can probably send you to the grocery store with a list for milk and steaks and you'll come back with two bathrobes."
SLE starts laughing. "That's totally true."
LIE, turns towards SLE buddy: "And you, your problem is that you might cheat."
IEI looks sharply at him, he demurs. "Yeah, I could see that."
LIE: "But you shouldn't. Because this woman is really fucking rare and the fact that you guys are together at all is kind of a miracle and if you screw it up, she's not going to give you a second chance and you'll never, ever find another woman who will love you like she does."
IEI and SLE look at each other, say nothing. LIE goes to get a drink.

That was four years ago. They are still together.

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Hahaha your first reference - they don't know how to stick to a narrative, consider plan b's. Very scattered.
I can see how IEI can help with this.

To your second reference -
"SLE, dully: "Huh" - this is the entire type summarised
Getting distracted by shiny things at the grocery store and spending money like it is video game currency - yeah, this is a big problem, and unfortunately for IEI, something they can't wriggle themselves away from and bluff their way out. It is also why semi-duality with an SEE is not ultimately desirable for IEI, as SEE has no patience for this frivolous and uneconomical spending :P.
I think IEI's are prone to cheat, too, but yeah, I can't see them cheating on an SLE, maybe other types. Creative Fe makes it all to easy for that situation to escalate.
Together 4 years, good on them. That's awesome

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Originally Posted by Rusal

When someone said he liked "non-intelligent girls" you said that indicated T type. When you read someone admires a SLE that can cook and clean that indicates Si. Pick a non-verbal impression typing technique that is constant.

OP: when IEI and SLE are together, it seems they work better and complement when there is a goal, as would any other dyad. Read DarkAngelFireWolf69's description of that dyad, it's 80% what happens.

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Lol yeah there's something ridiculously simple in Sol's typing method. And the sheer confidence while brandishing this half-baked input. (Sorry Sol if you can hear me)
And exactly, we can admire functions in others that we don't value but struggle with. I still am in awe of Si and admire other's use of it although I'd like to minimize my use of it as much as possible. That's why superego relations exist, too.

Thats an inspiring idea. I'll read the DarkAngelFireWolf69 description, thanks :)

Lest I leave you with the wrong impression about SLE's, here is

True Story #3

LIE, to SLE: "You worked in a patent mill in Silicon Valley?"
SLE: "Yes."
LIE: "Don't you have to have an advanced degree to do that?"
SLE: "I have a PhD in Physics."
LIE: "I see. But you're not working in research."
SLE: "Research bores me. I prefer working for high tech firms in their offices."
LIE: "How do you do that?"
SLE: "I have an MBA in business."
LIE: "So why do you want to work here?"
SLE: "It seems interesting." Long pause. "I have all these degrees and I don't know why."

One-dimensional Ni is 1D Ni.

i can idealize a few certain others a lot sometimes and it felt like it was really who they were and everything they represent, and in the comparison i would always (of course) be so dreadfully lacking. but it was really myself and all of my longings about myself, powerful enough to destroy me. it was easier for them to surface through projection.

i'm sure this is obvious and unhelpful, but it's what i was thinking

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Originally Posted by StarPath

I agree with @Adam Strange here.

I would say that even though I have an eye on the future, I very much have this sense of "act now, complete the tasks now" that I do not think an IxI normally has. I was so silly for ever thinking I was IEI, because I do not struggle to act. In fact, in a game like chess, I would say that I do not plan enough because I just react.

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Wait aren't you ESI? Then on the other post you were LIE

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Originally Posted by Yesein

ESTp's are so perfect. They can do anything. They can cook, clean, garden, surf, row boats, shoot, hunt, survive without complaint in the wild, make a bedside table.
IEI"s are useless and we don't do anything :hide:

So called Dualisation has just brought impending doom upon me. An ego death to the max. A bundle of insecurity and self jabs. I kind of realized how crap my psycho-type is only when a SLE enters the picture. Their social skills aren't even as bad as I thought they'd be for a Fi PoLR, their blasé attitude is very endearing. So I can't even feel more competent in that aspect. Being an IEI is a cursed existence.

What the hell do we bring to the table? :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused: Why don't SLE score a hot and confident ESE instead? :confused2:

Ok so a few questions. First, if you are IEI, do you have something similar in the presence of an SLE? Do you feel bedazzled and paralyzed by their sheer competence, "can do" attitude, strength, everything. How do you deal with this. I cannot function in the presence of a god.

And secondly if you are another type or IEI yourself, what the hell does the IEI supply the SLE? How can IEI be useful to them? And it also be a fair exchange? @ similarly SLEs are only ppl with many flaws and problems, same as us.

Is it an equal trade off (IEI helps soothe the SLE's mood swings, is all patient with their impulses and keeps them "happy", and the SLE is all practical and useful and physically motivated), because the SLE is good at and enjoys being active, but the IEI not as much, so it's actually no biggie *shrugs nonchalantly* for the both of them? Is that it?

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In dual pairs, conflicts rarely arise, and if they do arise, they are quickly and painlessly resolved. The partners fit together like two halves of a torn photograph, together making up one whole. But precisely due to the fact that mutual understanding is quickly established and there are no internal sources of tension, the dual is not immediately distinguished from other people. The dual seems too simple and straightforward, and therefore not worthy of attention. This is the first position that a person can take upon meeting a dual. Rather, it is characteristic of extroverts. The second position is when you tell yourself: he is too good for me, I can hardly please him. This position is more typical for an introvert. Both of these positions are found in people who did not have experience of dual communication in childhood.

Source: https://socioniks.net/article/?id=89

:thinking: I admit EIE's people skills can be intimidating at first and they do seem very smart. Personal experience however interacting with certain specific ppl who type as EIE has only been disappointing past the initial stage of awe & idealization... idk what G is on about there in the article, but in my case I felt irritation from about midway through which gradually turned into severe annoyance and anger leading to constant reoccurring conflict in duality relations.

"The dual is perceived as a shadow, as something completely natural and therefore meaningless. How much you needed this person, you perceive only when you broke up with him. A person perceives and experiences the loss of the dual very sharply, for a long time he does not find a place for himself. Having got used to the dual, having acquired the experience of dualization, you finally begin to realize that his presence calms you down, gives you a feeling of security. With favorable subtypes, this effect is enhanced even more."

:shrug: haven't felt anything like this with anyone tbh.

There are a lot of shitty SLEs out there. Those are the ones that usually form one-sided dependent relationships with an IEI (the IEI is the dependent one) that is then abused (because remember these are shitty SLEs we're talking about - even the good ones like to throw a random punch from time to time). The IEI never leaves this abusive relationship and if they do, regret it for the rest of their lives. Therefore, whether you are useless or not never enters the picture because the SLE you get won't give you enough recovery time between backslaps to think about whether you're doing good or not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by inumbra

i can idealize a few certain others a lot sometimes and it felt like it was really who they were and everything they represent, and in the comparison i would always (of course) be so dreadfully lacking. but it was really myself and all of my longings about myself, powerful enough to destroy me. it was easier for them to surface through projection.

i'm sure this is obvious and unhelpful, but it's what i was thinking

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No, this is helpful :) I'm glad I am not alone in this complex.
It is self destructive, yes. It greatly halts self progress because all focus tunes into the idealized person, and you can painfully feel the missing pieces in yourself that this person is filled to the brim with.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shotgunfingers

In dual pairs, conflicts rarely arise, and if they do arise, they are quickly and painlessly resolved. The partners fit together like two halves of a torn photograph, together making up one whole. But precisely due to the fact that mutual understanding is quickly established and there are no internal sources of tension, the dual is not immediately distinguished from other people. The dual seems too simple and straightforward, and therefore not worthy of attention. This is the first position that a person can take upon meeting a dual. Rather, it is characteristic of extroverts. The second position is when you tell yourself: he is too good for me, I can hardly please him. This position is more typical for an introvert. Both of these positions are found in people who did not have experience of dual communication in childhood.

Source: https://socioniks.net/article/?id=89

:thinking: I admit EIE's people skills can be intimidating at first and they do seem very smart. Personal experience however interacting with certain specific ppl who type as EIE has only been disappointing past the initial stage of awe & idealization... idk what G is on about there in the article, but in my case I felt irritation from about midway through which gradually turned into severe annoyance and anger leading to constant reoccurring conflict in duality relations.

"The dual is perceived as a shadow, as something completely natural and therefore meaningless. How much you needed this person, you perceive only when you broke up with him. A person perceives and experiences the loss of the dual very sharply, for a long time he does not find a place for himself. Having got used to the dual, having acquired the experience of dualization, you finally begin to realize that his presence calms you down, gives you a feeling of security. With favorable subtypes, this effect is enhanced even more."

:shrug: haven't felt anything like this with anyone tbh.

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That first paragraph definitely resonates with me, the not feeling good enough. I rarely feel this with anyone, only activity and dual.

Yeah, EIE's are a type that for me also start off being too good to be true. Their sense of humor, engaging commentary and ability to captivate a room full of people with their funny stories is very appealing. They also have a cute twinkle in their eye. They know how to get people to like them for sure. Even after a inappropriate on all levels meltdown that for anyone else would be inexcusable they can restore people's trust and positive disposition. The Fe subtype is just too goddamn charming, hence all their toxic traits are excused! XD

I have seen one platonic EIE-LSI duality. They had a lot of fun with each other, teamed up for pranks. They are so close actually that the LSI is going to make space in his new house for the EIE to live with him and girlfriend (who I think is gamma SF). Maybe it depends on your subtype. As an IEI-Fe, I generally prefer introverts. Maybe you'd change your mind with an EIE Ni subtype, they have a completely different style and a more contemplative temperament. They still have a tendency towards melodrama, but it is much more self contained.

The last part resonates with me after only 2 weeks of dualisation, but I've also felt this way before with Mirrors, Semi duals and Illusionary.

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Originally Posted by ouronis

There are a lot of shitty SLEs out there. Those are the ones that usually form one-sided dependent relationships with an IEI (the IEI is the dependent one) that is then abused (because remember these are shitty SLEs we're talking about - even the good ones like to throw a random punch from time to time). The IEI never leaves this abusive relationship and if they do, regret it for the rest of their lives. Therefore, whether you are useless or not never enters the picture because the SLE you get won't give you enough recovery time between backslaps to think about whether you're doing good or not.

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Oh jeez. Crushing of ideals. But yes, I agree. SLE riff raff exists.
I can't see an SLE being physically abusive towards a loved one. I just can't. I thought SLE's preserved their hostility for outsiders.
I have been around an unstable SLE before that had frequent anger outbursts, but they never harmed or punched a family member or significant other, just a wall, pillar, and even themselves in the form of self harm. Although that took a manipulative turn. . .

I do know an ILI that has been violent towards weaker and vulnerable people. Intuitives can be quite bad at managing their anger.

But yes, IEI's would be one type to stick around in an abusive relationship or even friendship.

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Originally Posted by Yesein

I have seen one platonic EIE-LSI duality. They had a lot of fun with each other, teamed up for pranks. They are so close actually that the LSI is going to make space in his new house for the EIE to live with him and girlfriend (who I think is gamma SF). Maybe it depends on your subtype. As an IEI-Fe, I generally prefer introverts. Maybe you'd change your mind with an EIE Ni subtype, they have a completely different style and a more contemplative temperament. They still have a tendency towards melodrama, but it is much more self contained.

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Yeah, already did in as far as the EIE's type was accurate (which I think it was, EIE-H aka Ni sub). So much nagging from the EIEs part.. extremely irritating. Leaving that felt liberating tbh, 0 sense of loss. :thinking: stages of the relationship on my end: idealization & awe --> lots to talk about and things in common --> mild irritation at criticisms and nagging --> gradual buildup of extreme irritation and anger --> disillusionment & repeating conflict --> escape.

Yeah, what can I say.. I don't think the duals seem very interesting for extroverts when younger, it's only when you get more experience you start to understand even the fact that there are wildly different personalities and it actually matters. I think for SLE (or extroverted and sensing types in general) it's easy to just go for the good-looking and exciting people at first until after enough disappointments you realize something about duality, perhaps after meeting one accidentally.

I find it a bit difficult to put into words, but IEI are the perfect combination of mysterious insight, subtle but delightfully dramatic and mocking Fe and ability to not be offended by rudeness. They seem to be amazed of your capability to do mundane and trivial things while living in this intriguing dreamworld. Interacting with IEI is never boring because while they do very little in the real world, all those mental explorations result in a lot of unexpected insights and while impractical they usually seem very smart in philosophical ways and are eager to understand the world. They just need help with the perception of the static reality, confirming what is real and what isn't, help with practical things and sometimes a bit of push to venture out in the world and actually do things using their body instead of their mind. I don't see them as useless. Sure, they might not perform these practical mundane boring tasks very well, but it's the mind of an IEI that is an endless source of interesting conversations, funny expressions and vocal impressions. IEI are the masters of using their voice to convey emotions, truly dramatic or often in the form of mockery. Making fun of other people is something both SLE and IEI enjoy. The world-rejecting quality of Ni-Se is reflected in the tastes that beta NF have for disturbing, otherworldly unreal and even violent art. The tastes of Ne/Si valuers often seem bland and mundane in comparison.. too soft, wholesome and infantile.
IEI have the capability of predicting social outcomes very well and can help the SLE to not make social blunders that they sometimes make due to brashness that results in social backlash. However being irrationals, they don't mind a bit of chaos and rule-breaking..

To summarize, I definitely think IEI have a lot to offer to the SLE, it's just not in the form of practical things. It's their superbly weird insightful minds, suitably demure sweetness and capacity for forgiveness. SLE often have a problem of being dissatisfied with anything they have, forever reaching for something more. Enjoying what you have in the moment is not for ignoring Si. With an IEI you can somehow exist outside time and reality for a while and feel happy. That is enough. They don't need to be productive or capable in the physical world. They can inject meaning into the most basic mundane things. Se in itself just sees things as they truly are, devoid of feelings, potentalities or meaning and sometimes this can feel depressingly banal.

Well I guess they just realise how nice we are, or try to be..or need to be.. and they want to be part of that, or help us with it. And I guess we see the ‘nice’ in them too.

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Originally Posted by Northstar

Yeah, what can I say.. I don't think the duals seem very interesting for extroverts when younger, it's only when you get more experience you start to understand even the fact that there are wildly different personalities and it actually matters. I think for SLE (or extroverted and sensing types in general) it's easy to just go for the good-looking and exciting people at first until after enough disappointments you realize something about duality, perhaps after meeting one accidentally.

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I remember Jack saying something similar about SEI, he found them uninteresting, boring even to begin with.

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Originally Posted by shotgunfingers

I remember Jack saying something similar about SEI, he found them uninteresting, boring even to begin with.

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Yeah that's probably how you often find your duals before you actually get to know what they are about. I had a relationship with an SEI and the Fe creative / Ti HA part matched with a dual but the intriguing coolness of Ni was missing so eventually it got too plain and boring and felt like things were never going anywhere, too much focus on sensory enjoyment and too little mental stimulation.

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Originally Posted by BethanyR

Well I guess they just realise how nice we are, or try to be..or need to be.. and they want to be part of that, or help us with it. And I guess we see the ‘nice’ in them too.

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:crispy: to me it sounded kinda like the IEI likes to manipulate the SLE and mock ppl, the SLE tho enjoys this malefic side of the IEI and goes along with it fully aware whats going on.. haha.

https://s017.radikal.ru/i436/1309/21/75e2d5645ea1.jpg

..however this is supposed to be true of every beta:

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Other respected values ​​of the Beta Quadra are heroism and dedication. It can rightfully be called a quadra of passionaries. A passionary, according to L. Gumilev, is a person who is able to sacrifice much, up to his own life, in the name of the struggle for an idea. Quadra Beta is the main supplier of selfless fighters and fanatics of all kinds.

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:thinking: considering this applies to me even when I'm chronically depressed, there is probably something to it.

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Originally Posted by Northstar

Yeah, what can I say.. I don't think the duals seem very interesting for extroverts when younger, it's only when you get more experience you start to understand even the fact that there are wildly different personalities and it actually matters. I think for SLE (or extroverted and sensing types in general) it's easy to just go for the good-looking and exciting people at first until after enough disappointments you realize something about duality, perhaps after meeting one accidentally.

I find it a bit difficult to put into words, but IEI are the perfect combination of mysterious insight, subtle but delightfully dramatic and mocking Fe and ability to not be offended by rudeness. They seem to be amazed of your capability to do mundane and trivial things while living in this intriguing dreamworld. Interacting with IEI is never boring because while they do very little in the real world, all those mental explorations result in a lot of unexpected insights and while impractical they usually seem very smart in philosophical ways and are eager to understand the world. They just need help with the perception of the static reality, confirming what is real and what isn't, help with practical things and sometimes a bit of push to venture out in the world and actually do things using their body instead of their mind. I don't see them as useless. Sure, they might not perform these practical mundane boring tasks very well, but it's the mind of an IEI that is an endless source of interesting conversations, funny expressions and vocal impressions. IEI are the masters of using their voice to convey emotions, truly dramatic or often in the form of mockery. Making fun of other people is something both SLE and IEI enjoy. The world-rejecting quality of Ni-Se is reflected in the tastes that beta NF have for disturbing, otherworldly unreal and even violent art. The tastes of Ne/Si valuers often seem bland and mundane in comparison.. too soft, wholesome and infantile.
IEI have the capability of predicting social outcomes very well and can help the SLE to not make social blunders that they sometimes make due to brashness that results in social backlash. However being irrationals, they don't mind a bit of chaos and rule-breaking..

To summarize, I definitely think IEI have a lot to offer to the SLE, it's just not in the form of practical things. It's their superbly weird insightful minds, suitably demure sweetness and capacity for forgiveness. SLE often have a problem of being dissatisfied with anything they have, forever reaching for something more. Enjoying what you have in the moment is not for ignoring Si. With an IEI you can somehow exist outside time and reality for a while and feel happy. That is enough. They don't need to be productive or capable in the physical world. They can inject meaning into the most basic mundane things. Se in itself just sees things as they truly are, devoid of feelings, potentalities or meaning and sometimes this can feel depressingly banal.

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Quoted for posterity.

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Originally Posted by shotgunfingers

:crispy: to me it sounded kinda like the IEI likes to manipulate the SLE and mock ppl, the SLE tho enjoys this malefic side of the IEI and goes along with it fully aware whats going on.. haha.

https://s017.radikal.ru/i436/1309/21/75e2d5645ea1.jpg

..however this is supposed to be true of every beta:


:thinking: considering this applies to me even when I'm chronically depressed, there is probably something to it.

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Yes, though I would say the beta irrationals are less strongly idealistic and fanatic than the rationals. I do however value heroism and dedication to "your own", and your "brothers in arms". IEI often have difficulty making a final decision what their opinion on an ideological matter is, compared to EIE. SLE are have a smaller "circle of caring" compared to LSI who have a more global perspective (again, like the EIE). This is why the charismatic heads of states or long-running dictators are more often the EIE or LSI, I seem to remember DarkAngelFireWolf69 talks about this in his articles about process vs. result, the result types are more revolutionary but the process types displace the original revolutionaries and keep the new state running afterwards.

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Originally Posted by Yesein

Oh jeez. Crushing of ideals. But yes, I agree. SLE riff raff exists.
I can't see an SLE being physically abusive towards a loved one. I just can't. I thought SLE's preserved their hostility for outsiders.
I have been around an unstable SLE before that had frequent anger outbursts, but they never harmed or punched a family member or significant other, just a wall, pillar, and even themselves in the form of self harm. Although that took a manipulative turn. . .

I do know an ILI that has been violent towards weaker and vulnerable people. Intuitives can be quite bad at managing their anger.

But yes, IEI's would be one type to stick around in an abusive relationship or even friendship.

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I mean, if you had made the claim "most SLEs" are not like this, I might have been inclined to back down, but it seems that you are implying no SLEs are like this and honestly, that just doesn't mesh with demographics and probability - it would be easy to construct an argument against this at the population level. But I guess even then it seems like IEIs gravitate towards romantic, dramatic, broken things.

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Originally Posted by ouronis

There are a lot of shitty SLEs out there. Those are the ones that usually form one-sided dependent relationships with an IEI (the IEI is the dependent one) that is then abused (because remember these are shitty SLEs we're talking about - even the good ones like to throw a random punch from time to time). The IEI never leaves this abusive relationship and if they do, regret it for the rest of their lives. Therefore, whether you are useless or not never enters the picture because the SLE you get won't give you enough recovery time between backslaps to think about whether you're doing good or not.

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@ouronis, I once watched an LII singer in a band (he's pretty good) grasp the lapel formed by the open Hawaiian shirt of the SLE guitarist and say, ambiguously but with some disparagement behind it, "I see that you're rocking some (I can't remember his exact words, but they meant "latest style" clothes). The SLE missed the insult, and just said, fast "Yeah, are you gonna show up for practice tonight at 6?"

I took this to be a clash of Si and Se. I thought the LII secretly hated the SLE for his clumsy intrusions into the LII's space, but I later heard that they go out drinking together, so I might have been wrong.

As for painting "everyone" with the same brush, I'd say that any type can be an asshole. My LSE sister hates an EII male who is in love with her and who abuses his SLI wife. Who would have suspected that from an EII?

But I was wondering if your views towards SLE's are colored by this difference in functions? Because while I do know more SLE's who are in trouble with the law, most of them are law-abiding citizens. Some are even very protective of their loved ones.
Do you see a different subset?

As for painting "Everyone" with the same brush, I'd say that any type can be an asshole. My LSE sister hates an EII male who is in love with her and who also verbally abuses his SLI wife. Who would have expected that from an EII?

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Originally Posted by Adam Strange

@ouronis, I once watched an LII singer in a band (he's pretty good) grasp the lapel formed by the open Hawaiian shirt of the SLE guitarist and say, ambiguously but with some disparagement behind it, "I see that you're rocking some (I can't remember his exact words, but they meant "latest style" clothes). The SLE missed the insult, and just said, fast "Yeah, are you gonna show up for practice tonight at 6?"

I took this to be a clash of Si and Se. I thought the LII secretly hated the SLE for his clumsy intrusions into the LII's space, but I later heard that they go out drinking together, so I might have been wrong.

As for painting "everyone" with the same brush, I'd say that any type can be an asshole. My LSE sister hates an EII male who is in love with her and who abuses his SLI wife. Who would have suspected that from an EII?

But I was wondering if your views towards SLE's are colored by this difference in functions? Because while I do know more SLE's who are in trouble with the law, most of them are law-abiding citizens. Some are even very protective of their loved ones.
Do you see a different subset?

As for painting "Everyone" with the same brush, I'd say that any type can be an asshole. My LSE sister hates an EII male who is in love with her and who also verbally abuses his SLI wife. Who would have expected that from an EII?

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I am describing a dynamic that seems likely to arise given the common failings of both types, not a prophecy. The joke I was trying to imply is that if there are 13 SLEs for every 1 IEI, that IEI gets the worst of the lot and the other 12 SLEs have normal healthy relationships with other types due to the caricaturized IEI's values and weaknesses (so don't waste your time worrying whether you're good enough).

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Originally Posted by ouronis

I am describing a dynamic that seems likely to arise given the common failings of both types, not a prophecy. The joke I was trying to imply is that if there are 13 SLEs for every 1 IEI, that IEI gets the worst of the lot and the other 12 SLEs have normal healthy relationships with other types due to the caricaturized IEI's values and weaknesses (so don't waste your time worrying whether you're good enough).

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So you were joking? Sorry, I can't tell in text sometimes. I'd think that the actual outcome of 13 SLE's to 1 IEI would be that the IEI would get the best SLE (after dumping her previous ILE's) and the rest of the SLE's would keep having unhappy relationships with types which can't properly handle their high Se and low Ni and Fe.

So many SLE's just look to me like life has hit them in the head with a baseball bat, and they have no idea why they got that treatment.

IEI’s, on the other hand, seem to be on a merry-go-round of fantastic creatures and they reach for the ring when it comes around but can’t grasp it.

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Originally Posted by Adam Strange

So you were joking? Sorry, I can't tell in text sometimes. I'd think that the actual outcome of 13 SLE's to 1 IEI would be that the IEI would get the best SLE (after dumping her previous ILE's) and the rest of the SLE's would keep having unhappy relationships with types which can't properly handle their high Se and low Ni and Fe.

So many SLE's just look to me like life has hit them in the head with a baseball bat, and they have no idea why they got that treatment.

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That's just the typical duality is perfect theoretical outcome. You of all people should know that's not true

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Originally Posted by ouronis

That's just the typical duality is perfect theoretical outcome. You of all people should know that's not true

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Honestly, I’m still trying to figure this out.

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Originally Posted by one

Wait aren't you ESI? Then on the other post you were LIE

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I don't know, honestly. My problem with ESI is that I am not sure if I fit Ne PoLR and Te suggestive 100% (Although I can come up with new stories easily and I can connect different fields of knowledge, I have trouble seeing different perspectives on opinions). I also might be too emotionally expressive for ESI. My constant type switching in MBTI and Enneagram could point to 1D Ti (I was unsure between INFJ and ESTJ, LOL in MBTI). I am starting to consider EIE-Ni and SEE.

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Originally Posted by Adam Strange

Honestly, I’m still trying to figure this out.

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Don't get stuck on proposed theoretical answers if they contradict real world dynamics. For example: according to socionics, an LII should not be telling an LIE to be more empirical.

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Originally Posted by ouronis

Don't get stuck on proposed theoretical answers if they contradict real world dynamics. For example: according to socionics, an LII should not be telling an LIE to be more empirical.

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Maybe by "empirical", you mean "Pay more attention to the facts and less to your prejudices." Which I can totally accept. I don't think this advice is unusual for an LII. LII's will formulate a Ti theory, and then will relentlessly Ne test it in the real world. This testing is, of course, empirical.

LIE's, on the other hand, start from what they want and try to piece together bits that will make those wants happen in the real world. No theory involved.

I actually envy the capability of LII's to exclude emotion from their analysis, because my biases always influence my conclusions.

I agree with Northstar's point that one of the best things a healthy IEI could offer an SLE is meaning. I wonder if this meaning is even more important than the ability to future-forecast.

The need for social forecasting might vary depending on the SLE. I’d imagine this would be more important to an SLE who is Social first or second and cares about "rising in the ranks” or having some sort of influence in the world. A Social-last SLE might not care about this gift of the IEI as much, but would still very much care about being able to see the world through emotional rather than pragmatic eyes.


Side note, it seems like future-forecasting might be more crucial in the SEE/ILI pair than with SLE/IEI. Probably because the SEE can be illogical and thus needs more warnings about what will happen as a result of their actions. SLE with developed Thinking is less likely to make irrational decisions, although they still can and do because they’re impulsive.

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Originally Posted by StarPath

I don't know, honestly. My problem with ESI is that I am not sure if I fit Ne PoLR and Te suggestive 100% (Although I can come up with new stories easily and I can connect different fields of knowledge, I have trouble seeing different perspectives on opinions). I also might be too emotionally expressive for ESI. My constant type switching in MBTI and Enneagram could point to 1D Ti (I was unsure between INFJ and ESTJ, LOL in MBTI). I am starting to consider EIE-Ni and SEE.

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@StarPath, I watched the video that you posted. If you aren't an ESI-Se, then no one is. That's my opinion, for what it's worth. (Hint: My opinion is free.) Well, you could be an SEE-Fi, but I don't see the flash-bang of the SEE.

I rented a car from a woman the other day. She had transparent sparkly fingernails an inch long (Se), clothes that were just flash, a knitted headband that did a half-twist on her forehead (3D Si), and she had big, warm eyes that just spoke of tons of Fi. She told me that she was going to apply for a straight sales job, for commissions. Now that's an SEE. ESI's are a bit more conservative.

Se type order, force or inspire Ni types to help and move their hands to support his cause or ideas. Also IEI needs SLE imposition and force to comply. Part of it is related to admire the strenght and intelligence of SLE and their ability to not turn away or back from IEI provocations and don't be deceived by their tricks.

Edit. Also most of the limitations some of the IEIs perceive in themselves are actually mere tricks of their own minds and fear. I know IEIs who have been raised or influenced for extended periods of time by Se types and they are perfectly capable and normal ppl. At some point it seems they need the influence of Se to develop properly. Probably something similar happens with most types.

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Originally Posted by Adam Strange

@StarPath, I watched the video that you posted. If you aren't an ESI-Se, then no one is. That's my opinion, for what it's worth. (Hint: My opinion is free.) Well, you could be an SEE-Fi, but I don't see the flash-bang of the SEE.

I rented a car from a woman the other day. She had transparent sparkly fingernails an inch long (Se), clothes that were just flash, a knitted headband that did a half-twist on her forehead (3D Si), and she had big, warm eyes that just spoke of tons of Fi. She told me that she was going to apply for a straight sales job, for commissions. Now that's an SEE. ESI's are a bit more conservative.

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I have the moralistic side that is VERY ESI. I am a 1w2, I think. An example of a stereotypical ESI-Se type 1 enneagram is Angela Martin from The Office. She is methodical, strict, and highly focused on morals. I tend to be quite strict on myself and I can be quite assertive.

I am probably not EII because they are Si-valuing (I dislike it when people over-use Si) and I have a very hard time with seeing other perspectives on an issue that I am very passionate about. EIIs would probably not aspire to leadership in the way that I do. I value strictness a bit too much for an EII.

My rationale for 4D Fe: I was speaking in my “presentation voice.” When I present things, I will often do it quite firmly and assertively. However, in normal social situations, I am much more emotionally expressive and goofy. I relate more to the “passionate” than the “sincere” communication style, even though ESI-Ses can sound very businesslike and brief.

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Originally Posted by shotgunfingers

Yeah, already did in as far as the EIE's type was accurate (which I think it was, EIE-H aka Ni sub). So much nagging from the EIEs part.. extremely irritating. Leaving that felt liberating tbh, 0 sense of loss. :thinking: stages of the relationship on my end: idealization & awe --> lots to talk about and things in common --> mild irritation at criticisms and nagging --> gradual buildup of extreme irritation and anger --> disillusionment & repeating conflict --> escape.

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Sorry to hear about your bad experience with your duals. Maybe activity or illusionary will be better for you.

I had an EIE (guardian figure) force me to plan out my entire month, and put a lot of baseless restrictions on me, like "You can only go out 3 times a fortnight". The motive was clear - they wanted most of my free time to be spent on them, and to have a sense of control over my activities and restrict my freedom, because freedom is unpredictable and therefore psychological torment.

So yeah, they can be suffocating. I actually escaped one in the middle of the night, LOL. It was over something stupid. I had a venus fly trap that I didn't take proper care of, so it died, and I jokingly commented, "we should hold a funeral", and the EIE burst into tears and started calling me insensitive for making a funeral joke, and that she had to go to a funeral of a friend, and then started calling me names. I laughed at the ridiculousness of the escalation, EIE got even angrier, I called them crazy, stormed off to my room and planned an escape.
What annoyed me the most was that, had the EIE been in a good mood, the joke would've just slid off and they wouldn't care. Depending on their mood they will react differently. It's exhausting to have to constantly adjust to this. I maintained it for 7 years with this EIE, but as I meet more of this type I can see what's coming and I automatically create a large distance with them. (Although if you do this prepare for them to tell you that they think you're stuck up :P)

To be fair I do know one healthy EIE (a rare pokemon) that doesn't cry over spilled milk. Thank goodness :lol:

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Originally Posted by Northstar

Yeah, what can I say.. I don't think the duals seem very interesting for extroverts when younger, it's only when you get more experience you start to understand even the fact that there are wildly different personalities and it actually matters. I think for SLE (or extroverted and sensing types in general) it's easy to just go for the good-looking and exciting people at first until after enough disappointments you realize something about duality, perhaps after meeting one accidentally.

I find it a bit difficult to put into words, but IEI are the perfect combination of mysterious insight, subtle but delightfully dramatic and mocking Fe and ability to not be offended by rudeness. They seem to be amazed of your capability to do mundane and trivial things while living in this intriguing dreamworld. Interacting with IEI is never boring because while they do very little in the real world, all those mental explorations result in a lot of unexpected insights and while impractical they usually seem very smart in philosophical ways and are eager to understand the world. They just need help with the perception of the static reality, confirming what is real and what isn't, help with practical things and sometimes a bit of push to venture out in the world and actually do things using their body instead of their mind. I don't see them as useless. Sure, they might not perform these practical mundane boring tasks very well, but it's the mind of an IEI that is an endless source of interesting conversations, funny expressions and vocal impressions. IEI are the masters of using their voice to convey emotions, truly dramatic or often in the form of mockery. Making fun of other people is something both SLE and IEI enjoy. The world-rejecting quality of Ni-Se is reflected in the tastes that beta NF have for disturbing, otherworldly unreal and even violent art. The tastes of Ne/Si valuers often seem bland and mundane in comparison.. too soft, wholesome and infantile.
IEI have the capability of predicting social outcomes very well and can help the SLE to not make social blunders that they sometimes make due to brashness that results in social backlash. However being irrationals, they don't mind a bit of chaos and rule-breaking..

To summarize, I definitely think IEI have a lot to offer to the SLE, it's just not in the form of practical things. It's their superbly weird insightful minds, suitably demure sweetness and capacity for forgiveness. SLE often have a problem of being dissatisfied with anything they have, forever reaching for something more. Enjoying what you have in the moment is not for ignoring Si. With an IEI you can somehow exist outside time and reality for a while and feel happy. That is enough. They don't need to be productive or capable in the physical world. They can inject meaning into the most basic mundane things. Se in itself just sees things as they truly are, devoid of feelings, potentalities or meaning and sometimes this can feel depressingly banal.

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I can't add anything onto this. It's too good. BRAVO

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Originally Posted by Akira

At some point it seems they need the influence of Se to develop properly. Probably something similar happens with most types.

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:thumbsup:

Also remember that a lot of duals who get together don’t know anything about socionics. You might just see each other as nice people from
the start. I think if I were to end up with a dual I’d end up with the ‘nice’ type..or what’s ‘nice’ to me anyway..or at least ‘nice’ for a partner..

There are SLEs I could be friends with- I see the good in them..but doesn’t mean they’d be right for me in a relationship.

I think we all just want to be recognised as good and special and this can feel more real with a dual I guess. It happens with non duals too..observing couples recently..the best ones seem mentally healthy with rewarding careers. (I think hobbies can also make life rewarding.)

I think an sle/ good partner..would help me get out of my head. Stop me daydreaming/ruminating so much and get me off the couch..make my impressions and ideas come more alive in convo with their own complimentary maybe more concrete observations.

re the IEI ‘niceness’..

yes I would want someone to ‘get’ that I ‘need’ to see the good in people. And sometimes this will mean me being critical about other people. Personally I’d want my partner to realise that I need to critique in order to reset..I bloody love people lol. Usually..(in my core mind I do anyway..socionics/big life stuff has messed with this though recently) and of course I can be a dark IEI too but in order to see the true goodness I guess I have to see the badness too.

I have to see the good in people though and want to help them feel special, listened to and like they are a good person. Inspire life into them. Their own goodness inspires me to be better (to live) and I can’t help but root for them. I’m inspired by the littlest things they do..I’m hardly aware of it haha. But then of course, things come apart a bit..I start to see the cracks and my mind (at the back) is like ahh but you’re a wonderful human being I need you to be wonderful, for me, for you, for everyone..

so I vent or discuss until it all makes sense again and I can go back to seeing them as the flawed but heroic person I was first inspired by. (Subconsciously I knew they were flawed from
the start but in my iei mind it’s hard to separate the flaws from the goodness..need to think about this more..) If an sle can help me on this mission, well that’s great haha. Maybe the sle appreciates me doing it for them too. Maybe they can help me see my flaws too and be more comfortable with them.

Overall, IEIs offer tactical perspectives when dealing with people - somewhat like a diplomat. Although SLEs can be somewhat strategic and practical in their thinking, they can also be overly transparent in a roguish sort of way and come across as untrustworthy or with hidden agendas - even when it's not true. They're often OK with things but clumsy with people whereas IEIs tend to be the opposite.

a.k.a. I/O

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Originally Posted by Emily

I agree with Northstar's point that one of the best things a healthy IEI could offer an SLE is meaning. I wonder if this meaning is even more important than the ability to future-forecast.

The need for social forecasting might vary depending on the SLE. I’d imagine this would be more important to an SLE who is Social first or second and cares about "rising in the ranks” or having some sort of influence in the world. A Social-last SLE might not care about this gift of the IEI as much, but would still very much care about being able to see the world through emotional rather than pragmatic eyes.

Side note, it seems like future-forecasting might be more crucial in the SEE/ILI pair than with SLE/IEI. Probably because the SEE can be illogical and thus needs more warnings about what will happen as a result of their actions. SLE with developed Thinking is less likely to make irrational decisions, although they still can and do because they’re impulsive.

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The forecasting between IEI and SLE will relate to more social aspects but it won't be any less important whatever the instinct stackings.

This makes me think of a story. It's about something that happened between me and an SLE that I've known since middle school. In order to understand it you have to know that we were both living in an area with a quite a lot of violence so avoiding bad people was very important.
The SLE used to love hanging out with a guy that in my eyes was the worst piece of shit in the world. The guy was a bully, the real mean and nasty kind. He would harass the weakest and smallest people at school (or the ones who already felt excluded by everybody) just for the fun of it. But for some reason, my SLE friend found him funny.
All throughout middle and then high school I kept telling him to stop hanging out with the bully. Their relationship really got under my skin because it was obvious to me that the bully didn't really have friends. He was smart, manipulative and just liked having a crowd. But the SLE just wouldn't listen.
After high school I moved out of town for my higher education and I lost touch with him. But one day he texted me out of the blue after years of not speaking to each other. He explained to me that the bully from school had just done him extremely wrong.
On a Saturday morning, the bully invited the SLE and another one of their "friends" to hang out. He told them to meet him in the hall of a building where they liked to spend time together sometimes. The SLE declined the invitation saying that it was way too early for a Saturday. The other one however still accepted to meet, but when he arrived in the hall a group of guys came out of nowhere and assaulted him. It was a trap and obviously the bully was in on it. The plan was to get the both of them beat up in a place where no one would see it.
When the SLE told me this I was shocked but I wasn't. I was just mad that it took this little ambush for him to finally realize that he should have listened to me.

It also makes me think of an SLE boss that I had while working for a small business (less than 15 people). When he wanted to hire a new person but wasn't too sure about them he would give me money to take them for drinks or to eat together with other colleagues. Then he would ask me if in my opinion the candidate would get along with the rest of the team.

Being useful is only one aspect of duality. SLEs are weak IEIs on the inside, and IEIs are weak SLEs on the inside. The functions complement each other in a way that's hard to explain. A SLE "doesn't lack" Ni, they have it, but it is weak, and the IEI "doesn't lack" Se, they have it but it is weak. Simply the presence of the inferior function will have a positive effect on the partner.

Well people aren't Swiss army knives or whatever. You should ideally be liked for who you are, not how 'useful' you can be to a person lol. That is just unhealthy narc crap regardless of sociotype. I cringed sometimes when watching Thomas the Train and they called Thomas a "really useful engine." Ugh fuck that Te valuing shit. FUCK YOUR TE SIR TOPHAM HAT!!!

I wouldn't get that infatuated when a SLE spits in ur mouth either or whatever- because chances are they do that to most everybody they meet anyway. It takes more than 4D Se to impress me - especially now since I'm not a teenager anymore lol. Instead I would teach them basic morals. You're supposed to be a morality and ethical pill they can swallow unlike EIIs. The IEI is supposed to be 'uhh don't do that, you'll go to prison lol' and the SLE should listen. ((instead the IEI not telling them due to infatuation and the SLE going to prison anyway.))

If I'm disrespected even once in a relationship- I immediately leave and let them known it won't happen again. I don't like the erotic attitudes being called 'victim' since I usually like to be on top in bed anyway as they have the most surge of power. Yet it does sometimes make me vomit to the type of abuse some IEI females seem to attract. ((I probably projected a lot of what IEI women deal with to 'all women' and I apologize for that, but forgive me as I do have lots of IEI female family members & friends.)) I personally wouldn't deal with that level of masochism lol. They don't seem to even like it much anyway- they always rant and complain to me about it. They like the emotional drama aspect of it but don't do well with the real sadism of it. Unhealthy relationships are unhealthy- I think there can be a thin line between being a 'submissive' and putting up with abuse.

Some things ur meant to masturbate in the bathroom or whatever as a fantasy. Ur not supposed to make 'everything real' like some IEI women try lol.

I tried to be sassy gay friend and avoid their fate but it didn't work like it did in the videos lololol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnvgq8STMGM

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Originally Posted by Tallmo

Being useful is only one aspect of duality. SLEs are weak IEIs on the inside, and IEIs are weak SLEs on the inside. The functions complement each other in a way that's hard to explain. A SLE "doesn't lack" Ni, they have it, but it is weak, and the IEI "doesn't lack" Se, they have it but it is weak. Simply the presence of the inferior function will have a positive effect on the partner.

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Concise, and really hits the mark

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Originally Posted by BandD

Well people aren't Swiss army knives or whatever. You should ideally be liked for who you are, not how 'useful' you can be to a person lol. That is just unhealthy narc crap regardless of sociotype. I cringed sometimes when watching Thomas the Train and they called Thomas a "really useful engine." Ugh fuck that Te valuing shit. FUCK YOUR TE SIR TOPHAM HAT!!!

I wouldn't get that infatuated when a SLE spits in ur mouth either or whatever- because chances are they do that to most everybody they meet anyway. It takes more than 4D Se to impress me - especially now since I'm not a teenager anymore lol. Instead I would teach them basic morals. You're supposed to be a morality and ethical pill they can swallow unlike EIIs. The IEI is supposed to be 'uhh don't do that, you'll go to prison lol' and the SLE should listen. ((instead the IEI not telling them due to infatuation and the SLE going to prison anyway.))

If I'm disrespected even once in a relationship- I immediately leave and let them known it won't happen again. I don't like the erotic attitudes being called 'victim' since I usually like to be on top in bed anyway as they have the most surge of power. Yet it does sometimes make me vomit to the type of abuse some IEI females seem to attract. ((I probably projected a lot of what IEI women deal with to 'all women' and I apologize for that, but forgive me as I do have lots of IEI female family members & friends.)) I personally wouldn't deal with that level of masochism lol. They don't seem to even like it much anyway- they always rant and complain to me about it. They like the emotional drama aspect of it but don't do well with the real sadism of it. Unhealthy relationships are unhealthy- I think there can be a thin line between being a 'submissive' and putting up with abuse.

Some things ur meant to masturbate in the bathroom or whatever as a fantasy. Ur not supposed to make 'everything real' like some IEI women try lol.

I tried to be sassy gay friend and avoid their fate but it didn't work like it did in the videos lololol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnvgq8STMGM

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Hahahaha, you're great. My sides . I love Ni base.

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Originally Posted by BandD

I wouldn't get that infatuated when a SLE spits in ur mouth either or whatever- because chances are they do that to most everybody they meet anyway. It takes more than 4D Se to impress me - especially now since I'm not a teenager anymore lol. Instead I would teach them basic morals. You're supposed to be a morality and ethical pill they can swallow unlike EIIs. The IEI is supposed to be 'uhh don't do that, you'll go to prison lol' and the SLE should listen. ((instead the IEI not telling them due to infatuation and the SLE going to prison anyway.))

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:thinking: pretty sure Fe isn't about morals, see here: https://socioniks.net/article/?id=119 Fe is more like managing the social atmosphere kinda like being charismatic, passionate and such. Reminds me of the D&D Bard class managing the mood of the party.

:thinking: I don't think SLE's look for the Fi in IEI or the Fe tbh, its all about Ni, which has even less to do with morals. e_e SLE would probably get annoyed and walk the fuq away tbh..

What IEIs offer SLE's:

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5. Ni: dual-seeking function of ESTp and program function of INFp
IEI periodically makes "program" function statements that concern planning, since he sees very well the potential negative development of person's actions over time. He remembers past events and is able to use them to "catch" a person, to expose his cunning by use of a certain plan. The SLE listens to these statements, not questioning them as a whole, since that easily leads to an irritated reaction from the IEI. The SLE periodically comes to IEI for advice concerning this function, asking questions about forecasting the behavior of people: "What can be expected from this person?", "Is he being sincere or dishonest?", "Friend or foe?", etc. Commentary on this function should be issued in small portions and in the correct form. Not receiving advice regarding potential threats, the SLE is deprived of the point of application of his efforts. When the SLE does receive such a program, he becomes impassioned and starts to act resolutely.

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Source: http://wikisocion.net/en/index.php?t...ulenko#IEI-SLE

:chinese: hell yes Ti figured it out once again! nom nom

What IEI wants from SLE:

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1. Se: program function of ESTp and dual-seeking function of INFp
The SLE periodically makes "program" function statements about the need for resolute action, but never requires it to be undertaken immediately. The main requirement of his sensing "program" is the achievement of major objectives with application of force only when it's absolutely necessary. SLE's strategy is an open declaration of conflict with subsequent pressure exerted on his opposition through individuals who are able to exert such an influence. The IEI listening to these "program" statements shouldn't question them as a whole. Any remarks on this aspect should be made in small portions and in proper form. Criticisms of this kind are not possible because the IEI unconsciously seeks such manifestations of such resolute activity and willpower within his environment. On this same function the IEI turns to SLE for advice regarding abilities of different people, their strengths and weaknesses, their progress forward, etc. He seeks consultation regarding the degree of his own actions and efforts; not receiving advice of this kind the IEI being unaware of it advances with his/her own harsh "program".

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e_e further.. SLEs aren't criminal in general or such, they just don't understand relationships with other ppl well or the relationships amongst other ppl, they may assume someone is their friend, when they are not and then be surprised when they get "stabbed in the back" and such or they may react badly to something that wasn't intended as such. Very hard for them to figure this whole social relational stuff out. In contrast e as LSI I'm just overly suspicions of pp, not oblivious nor is it a complete blind spot for me, but for the SLE it is.

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4. Fi: vulnerable function of ESTp and demonstrative function of INFp

SLE poorly sees what relations are developing between people. He fears that his personal relationships will be put on display or used against him. It is difficult for him to openly express his sympathy for another person. He often makes mistakes when he assumes that someone relates to him well. Moving towards his purpose, he risks evoking bad attitudes in others when they notice his quality to not to stop at anything. IEI refrains from openly criticizing this function and treats it with understanding. Lecturing and annoying hectoring over this element can lead to a sharp deterioration of SLE's mood. The IEI unconsciously produces large psychological distances on this element, he as if slips away from his conversation partner, closes himself off behind a meaningless smile. Events that are relayed by his conversation partner do not affect him deeply. It is exactly these kind of elusively polite relations that seem inviting to the SLE, creating for him the stability of the external psychological situation.

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Even SLE - IEI Fe interaction is something entirely different from moralizing

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6. Fe: activating function of ESTp and creative function of INFp

SLE feels uncomfortable when it's necessary to show negative emotions: blow some steam, start a personal quarrel, cry or yell at people. Therefore, he hold himself in an accentuated cool and confident manner and prefers to state things directly and succinctly: "I don't like this", "Leave, and go to another place" rather than raise any commotion. At the same time SLE requires periodic "charging up" with positive emotions. The IEI lifts his spirits with humor, funny antics and stories, and that he loves to fool around. Without such input SLE's vitality decreases. At the same time the "product" of IEI's ethical function, "to cause emotional reactions in people", is smoothed out by the fact that SLE will initiate emotional quarrels only over significant and important for him issues.

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To sum it up IEI provides SLE with guidance regarding goals, who to trust, who is friend or foe, where to maneuver and what could most likely happen. The SLE then accepts this and executes, flexibly maneuvering according to the IEI's advice and his/her own logic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nwirRUxm_s

:thinking: pretty sure Fe isn't about morals, see here: https://socioniks.net/article/?id=119 Fe is more like managing the social atmosphere kinda like being charismatic, passionate and such. Reminds me of the D&D Bard class managing the mood of the party.

:thinking: I don't think SLE's look for the Fi in IEI or the Fe tbh, its all about Ni, which has even less to do with morals. e_e SLE would probably get annoyed and walk the fuq away tbh..

Ok so because im new here i don't know how to respond to your paragraphs separately in neat blocks
I agree with BandD that IEI's improve SLE's morals but this is not a deliberate or conscious way sometimes. I've had a few SLE's say I made them want to be a better person. I didn't realise i had this effect, it came as a surprise to me. cuz I don't ACT like an ethical do-gooder all the time, for example i have a notorious history of cheating (yeah i know, im a piece of shit), i tell white lies for convenience, and i can stereotype certain groups of people who i think have bad intentions

Strat describes Fe in IEI's as "exceptional sincerity, sensitivity and tact (+Fe)" from the dual description https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...Stratiyevskaya

IEI periodically makes "program" function statements that concern planning, since he sees very well the potential negative development of person's actions over time. He remembers past events and is able to use them to "catch" a person, to expose his cunning by use of a certain plan. The SLE listens to these statements, not questioning them as a whole, since that easily leads to an irritated reaction from the IEI. The SLE periodically comes to IEI for advice concerning this function, asking questions about forecasting the behavior of people: "What can be expected from this person?", "Is he being sincere or dishonest?", "Friend or foe?", etc. Commentary on this function should be issued in small portions and in the correct form. Not receiving advice regarding potential threats, the SLE is deprived of the point of application of his efforts. When the SLE does receive such a program, he becomes impassioned and starts to act resolutely.

This is interesting. I thought this was what everyone did, keep track of consequences of what something (health, relationship, activities) is progressing towards. The thought of not doing that would throw me off kilter

About the part of being aware of people's motives, I regularly consult my ILI friend to confirm or invalidate my suspicions, since I am not that clever and I project my own assumptions of what is wrong and right. For example: *Older man is overly friendly to me and makes a few questionable comments*
*in my head: Hmmm, this is a bit weird, but he wouldn't dare pass that boundary. He must know I'm too young for him. I'm just going to assume he's being friendly.*
*Later on, someone tells me yes it is weird, and i fearfully have my suspicions confirmed*

One way I make commentary on the character quality of others is I tell people close to me whether I think the company they keep is good for them or if they are below their standard and dragging them down. I am surprised when I see someone consistently spending time with a low-life that doesn't positively benefit them at all. Move onto greener pastures I say


Also, a question for you, do you see yourself similar to the ILI type?
What are the major differences?
I have the hardest time telling these types apart.

@shotgunfingers

You misunderstand. The point is people need help with their polr the most and sometimes the 4D functions of the 8th function can be conflictor-ish and seemingly ego at times to help the other person truly grow. I think people have this misconception that demonstrative function is about overly coddling somebody's weaknesses , which disgusts me. On the same token if an IEI refuses to face any Te and just floats in outer space- a SLE can't save them either no matter how much they 'love' them. So many times dual relationships can be 'supervisor-lite' or 'conflictor-lite' for this reason.

And yeah look at how shitty their Fi polr is. Am I supposed to pretend it's not shitty because I like them and cuz of 'duality'? lol they certainly aren't doing that for my Te.... they need a harsh EII to offend them sometimes really. ILEs protect my Te better but then again I don't like them as much either.

I don't know any healthy SLE-IEI couple that worked out because of infatuation, which is a huge moral flaw. Yes usually the IEI will be 'infatuated' with the SLE in a weird way and get a weird one-sided crush and confuse some logical mechanical moments of psychological protection as "romance." But this infatuation is so dangerous to be overly nice to somebody and look over their flaws because you like them and often these aren't a 'relationship' so much as the person just being used and manipulated in a completely one-sided way. In the end they just end in disaster.

Fi is what makes you capable of real love & the means to truly protect a relationship, if it's your weakness- you have huge issues. You can't even be in a relationship in the first place lol there's nothing. They need corrective of that weird immoral shit. I'm not going to be like 'aw how cute a sociopathic asshole' like some typical air headed demented IEI that needs to be euthanized.

/summons Maritsa the Berserker class on y'all.

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Originally Posted by Yesein

Ok so because im new here i don't know how to respond to your paragraphs separately in neat blocks
I agree with BandD that IEI's improve SLE's morals but this is not a deliberate or conscious way sometimes. I've had a few SLE's say I made them want to be a better person. I didn't realise i had this effect, it came as a surprise to me. cuz I don't ACT like an ethical do-gooder all the time, for example i have a notorious history of cheating (yeah i know, im a piece of shit), i tell white lies for convenience, and i can stereotype certain groups of people who i think have bad intentions

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The "us vs them" mentality is supposed to be stereotypical beta quadra tbh. I do it as well. IEIs have 4D Fi creative in model G at least, so their Fi is as strong as a EII's, however it isn't valued, so it manifests like this:

"2. Realization Function —R — Relations Ethics aka Fi
IEI reinforces her attitude with actions. For loved ones, she will do a lot.
She becomes enterprising if she feels she is gaining sympathy from others.
She reliably performs her present duties only in a team with an established
system of interpersonal relationships. She warns that personal enmity and
disagreement will lead to the collapse of the business. She does everything
she can to ensure that business relations are accompanied by favorable
informal ties. She introduces a harmonizing force into the work collective.
Capable of persuading people, she manages her relationships in such a way
that the business turns to its advantageous side. She successfully uses
acquaintances and personal charm."

IEI Fe:

Demonstrative Function +E — Emotional Ethics aka Fe
She is well-versed in the laws of the emotional lives of people. She is
able to make requests at the right time (when a person is in
a good mood), so it is difficult to refuse her. She reacts sensitively to the
funny things in life and she loves humor. She jokes, fools around, and
bothers people close to her, creating positive emotions in a variety of
ways. She is peaceful and cannot tolerate quarrels between people who are
close to her. She forgives easily and is willing to make sacrifices for the
sake of remedying a conflict. She is inwardly anxious. IEI experiences a
lot, but hides excitement and a bad mood behind a soft smile.

:shrug: as you can see neither is really about morality, which imo is something unrelated to socionics.

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[B]
Also, a question for you, do you see yourself similar to the ILI type?
What are the major differences?
I have the hardest time telling these types apart.

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:thinking: hmm, ILI's are much more at home with the purely abstract. They are an IP type and Ni base.. IEIs and ILIs basically never hurry to do anything even when psychologically healthy, its why they need the Se program of SLEs and SEEs, to get them moving as they prefer to spend time in their imaginations and can get stuck there without someone with Se to drag them around. Probably why Se is refreshing to them. This is different from lets say me being depressed and unmotivated. I'm more at home with concrete cause and effect chain reaction thinking, learn better by doing, hate lectures, a concrete realist. I basically do not daydream as that is too boring. Hmm.. other things, well I'm more comfortable and willing to engage someone in a physical confrontation aka a fight. I may discharge aggression by impacting the physical world aka break shit when angry. ILIs are much more zen. While I may engage abstract topics such as enjoying thinking about and reading Plato's Republic, after a while I have to return to more concrete hands on things aka there is a limit (but I do enjoy Ni-Ti loops lol).

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Originally Posted by BandD

@shotgunfingers

You misunderstand. The point is people need help with their polr the most and sometimes the 4D functions of the 8th function can be conflictor-ish and seemingly ego at times to help the other person truly grow. I think people have this misconception that demonstrative function is about overly coddling somebody's weaknesses , which disgusts me. On the same token if an IEI refuses to face any Te and just floats in outer space- a SLE can't save them either no matter how much they 'love' them. So many times dual relationships can be 'supervisor-lite' or 'conflictor-lite' for this reason.


And yeah look at how shitty their Fi polr is. Am I supposed to pretend it's not shitty because I like them and cuz of 'duality'? lol they certainly aren't doing that for my Te.... they need a harsh EII to offend them sometimes really. ILEs protect my Te better but then again I don't like them as much either.

I don't know any healthy SLE-IEI couple that worked out because of infatuation, which is a huge moral flaw. Yes usually the IEI will be 'infatuated' with the SLE in a weird way and get a weird one-sided crush and confuse some logical mechanical moments of psychological protection as "romance." But this infatuation is so dangerous to be overly nice to somebody and look over their flaws because you like them and often these aren't a 'relationship' so much as the person just being used and manipulated in a completely one-sided way. In the end they just end in disaster.

Fi is what makes you capable of real love & the means to truly protect a relationship, if it's your weakness- you have huge issues. You can't even be in a relationship in the first place lol there's nothing. They need corrective of that weird immoral shit. I'm not going to be like 'aw how cute a sociopathic asshole' like some typical air headed demented IEI that needs to be euthanized.

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Yeah, I think this is true. The point I'm trying to make is that Fi isn't rly about morals its mainly about interpersonal relationships.. so the IEI is passively improving the SLE's ability to form better interpersonal relationships and interpret these without annoying the SLE due to Fi while excellent in strength not being valued by the IEI. I guess one can say that makes the SLE a better person.. but the SLE could just stay an asshole with bad intentions benefiting from the IEI helping them interpret and make more sense of their interactions with others. There is a difference between results and intention imo and I see this more from a deontological perspective and not from a consequentialist one. If the SLE's results in interaction improve, but his/her innate core motivation is not there.. that just means he/she is unintentionally appearing to become a better person.

In reverse the SLE might be genuinely a good person with good intentions, but due to Fi PolR the results in relationships with other ppl end up bad. In this case the IEI would have a similar effect of helping the SLE appear to become a better person, but the SLE was like that from the start :shrug: .. the IEI merely made him/her nicer to deal with.

^^' EXIs are not saints ye know.

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Originally Posted by BandD

The point is people need help with their polr the most and sometimes the 4D functions of the 8th function can be conflictor-ish and seemingly ego at times to help the other person truly grow. I think people have this misconception that demonstrative function is about overly coddling somebody's weaknesses , which disgusts me. On the same token if an IEI refuses to face any Te and just floats in outer space- a SLE can't save them either no matter how much they 'love' them. So many times dual relationships can be 'supervisor-lite' or 'conflictor-lite' for this reason.

And yeah look at how shitty their Fi polr is. Am I supposed to pretend it's not shitty because I like them and cuz of 'duality'? lol they certainly aren't doing that for my Te.... they need a harsh EII to offend them sometimes really. ILEs protect my Te better but then again I don't like them as much either.

I don't know any healthy SLE-IEI couple that worked out because of infatuation, which is a huge moral flaw. Yes usually the IEI will be 'infatuated' with the SLE in a weird way and get a weird one-sided crush and confuse some logical mechanical moments of psychological protection as "romance." But this infatuation is so dangerous to be overly nice to somebody and look over their flaws because you like them and often these aren't a 'relationship' so much as the person just being used and manipulated in a completely one-sided way. In the end they just end in disaster.

Fi is what makes you capable of real love & the means to truly protect a relationship, if it's your weakness- you have huge issues. You can't even be in a relationship in the first place lol there's nothing. They need corrective of that weird immoral shit. I'm not going to be like 'aw how cute a sociopathic asshole' like some typical air headed demented IEI that needs to be euthanized.

/summons Maritsa the Berserker class on y'all.

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Good reminders before my date with a red-flaggy SLE....strongly agree with what you said about Fi, too.

Don't wanna discourage you too much @Emily but yeah be careful and love yourself first most of all. <3

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Originally Posted by BandD

Don't wanna discourage you too much @Emily but yeah be careful and love yourself first most of all. <3

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Not discouraging at all, more like a good reality check :)

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Originally Posted by BandD

@shotgunfingers

You misunderstand. The point is people need help with their polr the most and sometimes the 4D functions of the 8th function can be conflictor-ish and seemingly ego at times to help the other person truly grow. I think people have this misconception that demonstrative function is about overly coddling somebody's weaknesses , which disgusts me. On the same token if an IEI refuses to face any Te and just floats in outer space- a SLE can't save them either no matter how much they 'love' them. So many times dual relationships can be 'supervisor-lite' or 'conflictor-lite' for this reason.

And yeah look at how shitty their Fi polr is. Am I supposed to pretend it's not shitty because I like them and cuz of 'duality'? lol they certainly aren't doing that for my Te.... they need a harsh EII to offend them sometimes really. ILEs protect my Te better but then again I don't like them as much either.

I don't know any healthy SLE-IEI couple that worked out because of infatuation, which is a huge moral flaw. Yes usually the IEI will be 'infatuated' with the SLE in a weird way and get a weird one-sided crush and confuse some logical mechanical moments of psychological protection as "romance." But this infatuation is so dangerous to be overly nice to somebody and look over their flaws because you like them and often these aren't a 'relationship' so much as the person just being used and manipulated in a completely one-sided way. In the end they just end in disaster.

Fi is what makes you capable of real love & the means to truly protect a relationship, if it's your weakness- you have huge issues. You can't even be in a relationship in the first place lol there's nothing. They need corrective of that weird immoral shit. I'm not going to be like 'aw how cute a sociopathic asshole' like some typical air headed demented IEI that needs to be euthanized.

/summons Maritsa the Berserker class on y'all.

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HEY YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT ME
im the airhead IEI infatuated with an SLE... :bashhead: that needs to be vaccinated

i agree with you on most parts because you have some really original insights, but I'm not sure that SLEs really do care about Te PoLR.
in fact the SLE i am currently with, the inspiration for my embarrassing post, offered to support me entirely on their income :nope:. They also don't ask triggering Te questions like "so what are your plans for work/schooling/etc", "you should really get xyz and z going and then you can xyz" that awkwardly draw attention to my lack of practical acumen.

On the contrary when I was with an SEE they bugged me a lot about Te stuff. SEEs (and gammas in general) are the ones that wanna push you and make you work. Before the SEE I was with an ESI dude that pushed me in the same manner. Under Te in dual descriptions, DarkAngelFireWolf69: Intrusive tips and annoying reminders about how to handle money (IEI is wasteful, uneconomical), the need to work, to be thrifty, to not be lazy, etc., can easily ruin IEI's mood and serve as a latent reason for quarrels. - Yeah, shamefully this was the situation.

My SEE was an ungrateful asshole, so he'd probably seem like an SLE, and he typed as a logical when he took the test. Maybe all sensor assholes get put down as SLE. But some are real sweethearts and even coo when they see a cute animal.

How I see Fi PoLR, removed from just being an asshole = not being able to open up about personal sentiments and feelings, needing a lot of alone time/being anti-social in the sense that their social battery is very low, low patience for polite small talk and/or pretending to care about what someone is talking about, being unable to "tolerate" people and be patient with them, not being able to indulge someone confiding about private stuff, being paranoid about negative signals in body language or tone, blurting out awkward remarks. Even being OVERLY polite is something I've noticed in Fi PoLRs, at least in the beginning. And that's where the IEI or SEI comes in and jokes about them being so polite, and then the tension goes away, and banter ensues >:D

@shotgunfingers

Aha yes, us vs them. I find it easier to quickly find a familiar language with Gammas than alpha/delta because of this because they're also edgelords.

:shrug: as you can see neither is really about morality, which imo is something unrelated to socionics. -
yeah, i agree. i started off in life with empathy but no morals, if that makes sense. Morals are learnt. I think morals require a deeper understanding of a situation/person. If you ever have kids have them read Enid Blyton around the age of 8. Her books are very morally enriching.
Brain chemicals may play a role too. Serotonin/dopamine levels, thyroid metabolism, drug use, mood disorders, childhood trauma. My moral compass goes away when my blood sugar drops and I start to think like an animal. We are influenced a lot by our bodily tides. I know a drugged up EIE that resembles an SLE caricature.

:thinking: hmm, ILI's are much more at home with the purely abstract. They are an IP type and Ni base.. IEIs and ILIs basically never hurry to do anything even when psychologically healthy, its why they need the Se program of SLEs and SEEs, to get them moving as they prefer to spend time in their imaginations and can get stuck there without someone with Se to drag them around.
Makes sense. LSI and SLE I noticed always have to be physically occupied with something and hate lazing around, unless they're drinking alcohol. I hate lazing around too but I feel like I also need a reason to move, lol

Hmm.. other things, well I'm more comfortable and willing to engage someone in a physical confrontation aka a fight. I may discharge aggression by impacting the physical world aka break shit when angry.
Oh yeah, I see it. I've seen an LSI angry before. It was quite scary. Someone kept moving his stuff. Socionics is right when it mentioned that LSI's really hate their belongings being tampered with.

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i agree with you on most parts because you have some really original insights, but I'm not sure that SLEs really do care about Te PoLR.

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I think you're right - which is why a few SLEs I know might be mistyped. I think I just playing a "victim" role tho and wanted to be proven wrong though to make myself feel better as I realize my post was dramatically negative and subversive, so thank you. :lol:

But I still think it's stupid to be infatuated with them. They are really awesome though right. <3

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Originally Posted by BandD

I think you're right - which is why a few SLEs I know might be mistyped. I think I just playing a "victim" role tho and wanted to be proven wrong though to make myself feel better as I realize my post was dramatically negative and subversive, so thank you. :lol:

But I still think it's stupid to be infatuated with them. They are really awesome though right. <3

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Np bb girl ;)
I have the same. I just want to be proven wrong sometimes when i purge my negative projections.

It is stupid to be infatuated with them, yes :hide: infatuation is like a person being your drug of choice and it's very unwell behavior.
they are awesome, yeep :D, couldn't ask for a better dual ... we are lucky ducklings. And the sex is gr8... not that that takes priority over the spiritual connection of course : )

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Originally Posted by Yesein

ESTp's are so perfect. They can do anything. They can cook, clean, garden, surf, row boats, shoot, hunt, survive without complaint in the wild, make a bedside table.
IEI"s are useless and we don't do anything :hide:

So called Dualisation has just brought impending doom upon me. An ego death to the max. A bundle of insecurity and self jabs. I kind of realized how crap my psycho-type is only when a SLE enters the picture. Their social skills aren't even as bad as I thought they'd be for a Fi PoLR, their blasé attitude is very endearing. So I can't even feel more competent in that aspect. Being an IEI is a cursed existence.

What the hell do we bring to the table? :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused: Why don't SLE score a hot and confident ESE instead? :confused2:

Ok so a few questions. First, if you are IEI, do you have something similar in the presence of an SLE? Do you feel bedazzled and paralyzed by their sheer competence, "can do" attitude, strength, everything. How do you deal with this. I cannot function in the presence of a god.

And secondly if you are another type or IEI yourself, what the hell does the IEI supply the SLE? How can IEI be useful to them? And it also be a fair exchange?

Is it an equal trade off (IEI helps soothe the SLE's mood swings, is all patient with their impulses and keeps them "happy", and the SLE is all practical and useful and physically motivated), because the SLE is good at and enjoys being active, but the IEI not as much, so it's actually no biggie *shrugs nonchalantly* for the both of them? Is that it?

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IEIs can caution SLEs from fake friends and give advice on how to handle ethical matters.

I still think it's more about the ESTps mood swings than advising about how to pick friends. :p I honestly don't think I ever give advice on the latter (maybe if asked, okay, but it's not that this situation comes up a lot usually.).

Also the making duality work article mentions this specifically: "Despite these natural inclinations, many members of this type are not even aware of their enormous potential and often suffer from lack of confidence, or hold some irrational notions. They need a partner who demonstrates inexhaustible optimism and faith in the success of any endeavor. The main thing is to rid these people of their anxieties, suspicions and doubts – the rest they will overcome themselves."

I find it hilarious that as an EII, your description of the SLE made me want to barf. 😂

I’ve known quite a few IEIs (and SLEs). Personally, I don’t think SLEs would ever be able to truly actualize their ambitions without the support of an intuition that is on par with IEI’s. They talk very big and will never approach any endeavor without giving off the impression that they are completely resolute and confident in their ability to accomplish exactly what they want; but what actually seems to happen is that SLE starts running in circles because there is no underlying purpose to propel them forward in the direction they took.
IEIs are undoubtedly the most cunning type. You observe and absorb details like a sponge, creating a framework that enables you to insert yourself into any situation you please with your charm. It’s hard to lose with that ability, which SLEs, although they may try, cannot replicate. So the IEI is the missing piece to the “victory” SLE is always struggling for

I would not describe myself as cunning..just saying.

As an SLE, every IEI I've met inspires me. It's what they say, believe & think. It isn't just they're relationship to SLE but the inspiration they can bring to the world. They might not always be correct but I dig hearing them out anyway

With not being an id**t and as**ole. with having 24/7 sex with me. (this is priority of all, physical! f**k romance and these sh**y things, just sex and physical touch!) with not betraying me. with not pretending she isn't interested (because if she isn't, the door is open)
also, with not being an Asian.

simple things. I, as an SLE, love simplicity of things. I don't like deep and meaningful things. sc*ew them. f**k them.

period.

bringing sensitivity towards difficult people when I would tend towards callous
bringing diplomacy when I'm cool with burning the bridge and being done with it
keeping me connected to groups/society when I have no faith in people
knowing my tastes and bringing me interesting Ni stuff to dig into
injecting a sense of wonder & doubt into everyday life I would get bored with quick otherwise
going with the flow
taking me in stride so I can be myself without having to hold back
being discrete

I actually don't "expect" anything from IEI or "need" anything from them. That sounds utilitarian. When IEI fully realize themselves & self actualize it's fucking cool. Just having a cup of coffee with a person like that is nice. I've met IEI veterinarians who were the most beautiful people not cause I wanted something but because they were making a difference in way that gave them meaning

Know the best time and place to X Y and Y

SLEs need to accept that not every person has a use.

They are personal cheerleaders and give fate for continuation to SLE's. Simple as as that.

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Originally Posted by Yesein

How I see Fi PoLR, removed from just being an asshole = not being able to open up about personal sentiments and feelings, needing a lot of alone time/being anti-social in the sense that their social battery is very low, low patience for polite small talk and/or pretending to care about what someone is talking about, being unable to "tolerate" people and be patient with them, not being able to indulge someone confiding about private stuff, being paranoid about negative signals in body language or tone, blurting out awkward remarks. Even being OVERLY polite is something I've noticed in Fi PoLRs, at least in the beginning. And that's where the IEI or SEI comes in and jokes about them being so polite, and then the tension goes away, and banter ensues >:D

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This sounded so much like me, I've been officially typed as an SLE but I still kind of think of myself as an EIE, but this sounded so close to me.

I am terrible at connecting to other people, I'm not an asshole although I can be one. It makes me depressed that I can't connect with other human beings in any effective way.

I worked with an obvious ESI and she was one of those really strident SJW types of girls. Almost everything I said was offensive to her and I had no idea what I should say that wouldn't offend her. I'm not saying I say offensive shit, but there's a softer touch I need or I'll get very uncomfortable.

For example:

The ESI was talking about never wanting to get married (bare with me lol, she really is an ESI) she said if she did get married she would just get married at a courthouse and not worry about a ring.

I laughed at this openly and said that you will want a ring with a real diamond like all women. (I know that this wasn't appropriate but I wasn't thinking.)

An SEI then laughed at me and asked me how I know what all women want.

I immediately knew that I put my foot in my mouth and corrected what I said.

The ESI was silently fuming.

This sort of thing happens often.

The ESI was also constantly obsessed with all of the things celebrities said and who should and shouldn't be "canceled".


I don't want to perpetuate that bad Fi makes you an evil sociopath but I do feel like Patrick Bateman a lot, where I'm basically pretending to be human. I care about people but I feel distant from them.

Quote:

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…there is an idea of a Patrick Bateman, some kind of abstraction, but there is no real me, only an entity, something illusory, and though I can hide my cold gaze and you can shake my hand and feel flesh gripping yours and maybe you can even sense our lifestyles are probably comparable: I simply am not there.

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It could be just my personal background (my parents were distant and abusive) but it also sounds like Fi PoLr.

I supposed the SEI or IEI would help place me within society and social groups and show me where I fit and where I belong.