Synesthesia and Si

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People with synesthesia typically do the following:

• Involuntarily experience their perceptions.
• Project sensations outside the mind, such as seeing colors floating through the air when they hear sounds.
• Have a perception that is the same each time.
• Have a perception that is generic, such as seeing a shape in response to a certain smell, but not seeing something more complex.
• Remember the secondary synesthetic perception better than the primary perception.
• Have emotional reactions such as pleasurable feelings linked to their perceptions.

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I'm not saying that all synesthetes are Si doms or all Si doms are synesthetes, I just see some interesting similarities between the two. Particularly the bolded symptom above. It reminds me of the connection between ADD and Ne. Seems like one could be confused for the other, causing misdiagnosis.

Sometimes, in a very quiet environment, while I'm doing something that takes a lot of visual weightlifting like browsing art, I start seeing colors? And shapes and sometimes sound. Never words or numbers. I think I can consciously make it grow louder but don't see any reason to, so it's quite faded and in the background most of the time. I think it's getting more frequent and I'm getting a better grasp of it as I get older. Possibly going insane. It's like everything has an aura. In normal life doing normal stuff it goes away :(

Anyway, making a post because it's interesting.

Real synesthesia involves real shapes crossing you field of vision, for example. So driving can be dangerous.

Si is not that extreme but there can be colors in the 'inner eye' or a strong association. Or an aura, like Cybel said.

For example: a person can have sex and then realize the experience felt 'yellow' or whatever.

Not a Si ego but..
I don't experience anything like what Cybel described, but i do experience the bolded with sounds.
For example I usually rely on my memory of how a song "looked like" (colorless shapes and gestures) in order to remember how it sounds like. After I've listened to the song many, many times I can directly remember its sound. How quickly I get to that point is correlated with how unique the song "looks".
I think its origin is linked to learning to read music on a page at a very young age of 4 and the fact that I am a very visual thinker.

It is not real synesthesia, though, according to Rusal's definition. When I'm parking and such I have to turn off music so I can "see" better but I think lots of people experience something like that, and it's not like actual shapes enter my vision.

I do wonder if most people with actual synesthesia are Si egos.
Just thinking aloud but it could also be linked with Vortical-Synergetic thinking, or any other type of cognition, but this one comes to mind, if those are even real.

By Jung weak functions being more unconsciouse are lesser separated, easier mix contents and easier influenced by other functions.

I have some kind of synesthesia because I visualize numbers and years. It has always been the same patterns. It resembles the clock and then the pattern repeats itself with some variation for greater numbers. I don't actually see anything concrete, but I visualize it for my inner vision. It happens involuntarily. Since I was a kid. I can zoom in on the pattern and see it from different perspectives.

Months go in a circle with winter up and summer down. Now we are going up towards winter, so when someone talks about "Christmas is soon" I feel where it is in space.

It was only recently I realized that the same clock pattern is pretty common.

But I don't really see any connection with Si. But maybe with weak intuition.

1 to 100:

https://i.imgur.com/GD3EIx6m.jpg


1 to 20:

https://i.imgur.com/86uDCd4m.jpg


Years, from present looking back in time towards middle ages (3D perspective):

https://i.imgur.com/lFpBjgUl.jpg

@Tallmo, I think internalized visualizations of numbers and years are commmon to all. Synesthesia is rare, but Si leads can have experiences like "green orgasm" probably because of intensive and extensive focus on the sensation.

*easy question to all here: what do the quadras look like to you? For me they open like a horizontal lane and my inner eye floats on Beta for some reason. I have to 'go back' to hover over Alpha, for example. We all have these personal formations.

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Originally Posted by Rusal

Real synesthesia involves real shapes crossing you field of vision, for example. So driving can be dangerous.

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I don't think 'real' synesthesia has to be that extreme. Usually it's referred to these (involuntary) subjective impressions and visualizations (in the inner mind's eye) without having to take over your whole perception to the point where you can't separate your subjective perceptions from reality anymore. Though maybe for a very small minority it can get that extreme.

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Originally Posted by Rusal

@Tallmo, I think internalized visualizations of numbers and years are commmon to all. Synesthesia is rare, but Si leads can have experiences like "green orgasm" probably because of intensive and extensive focus on the sensation.

*easy question to all here: what do the quadras look like to you? For me they open like a horizontal lane and my inner eye floats on Beta for some reason. I have to 'go back' to hover over Alpha, for example. We all have these personal formations.

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Alpha- something bright! and light! like little planets in space little prince style, pixels, computer hooked into a brain

Beta- A sharp blade, rust at the handle, unfurling bandages, blowing on a rose, a carnival!

Gamma- a chasm, void, abyss in the sky shrieking for eternity, Lovecraft, spirals spirals spirals

Delta- a family of cats, tatami mat, Shinto folklore and mythical creatures, hands made of leather

i don’t have synesthesia but i do get color associations
alpha- pastel rainbow
beta- red
gamma- black and white
delta- green

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Originally Posted by Rusal

We all have these personal formations.

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Yes, because synesthesia is probably much more common than it's usually said. But these visualisation/formations are part of what falls now under the term synesthesia.

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Originally Posted by Rusal

@Tallmo, I think internalized visualizations of numbers and years are commmon to all. Synesthesia is rare, but Si leads can have experiences like "green orgasm" probably because of intensive and extensive focus on the sensation.

*easy question to all here: what do the quadras look like to you? For me they open like a horizontal lane and my inner eye floats on Beta for some reason. I have to 'go back' to hover over Alpha, for example. We all have these personal formations.

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I see the faces of each quadra superimposed on a thematic background...

Alpha: bright, expectant, open faces. Holding hands. Superimposed on a world without any shadows and lots of distracting lights and sounds, like being in a video arcade.

Beta: changing expressions, sometimes the eyes are slits and other times they're open wide and fierce. For every action there's an opposite reaction, sometimes embracing and sometimes pushing others away. The background shifts and swirls a lot

Gamma: wry faces, they've seen it all and aren't impressed. Sad, often. Kind of a Blade Runner feeling world, dark and industrial, but hard to describe. The Ni worlds are less clear in form than the Si worlds.

Delta: faces turned away or eyes downcast/looking off in the distance. Stoic, lips in a thin straight line. A scene of a little cabin in the mountains in winter with smoke coming from the chimney. Everyone is holding a cup of tea and wearing wool mittens.

To your original question, OP: I don't have Si the way you do, but when I play the piano there are certain sounds that have a "color" to me. I think this is probably different than having such a strong and overwhelming presence of a color flooding your consciousness.

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Originally Posted by Cybel

I'm not saying that all synesthetes are Si doms or all Si doms are synesthetes, I just see some interesting similarities between the two. Particularly the bolded symptom above. It reminds me of the connection between ADD and Ne. Seems like one could be confused for the other, causing misdiagnosis.

Sometimes, in a very quiet environment, while I'm doing something that takes a lot of visual weightlifting like browsing art, I start seeing colors? And shapes and sometimes sound. Never words or numbers. I think I can consciously make it grow louder but don't see any reason to, so it's quite faded and in the background most of the time. I think it's getting more frequent and I'm getting a better grasp of it as I get older. Possibly going insane. It's like everything has an aura. In normal life doing normal stuff it goes away :(

Anyway, making a post because it's interesting.

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wow, that's amazing
the closest thing I have experience similar to this was that once I felt the smell of someone I liked even though they were not there.

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Originally Posted by Tallmo

I have some kind of synesthesia because I visualize numbers and years. It has always been the same patterns. It resembles the clock and then the pattern repeats itself with some variation for greater numbers. I don't actually see anything concrete, but I visualize it for my inner vision. It happens involuntarily. Since I was a kid. I can zoom in on the pattern and see it from different perspectives.

Months go in a circle with winter up and summer down. Now we are going up towards winter, so when someone talks about "Christmas is soon" I feel where it is in space.

It was only recently I realized that the same clock pattern is pretty common.

But I don't really see any connection with Si. But maybe with weak intuition.

1 to 100:

https://i.imgur.com/GD3EIx6m.jpg


1 to 20:

https://i.imgur.com/86uDCd4m.jpg


Years, from present looking back in time towards middle ages (3D perspective):

https://i.imgur.com/lFpBjgUl.jpg

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What the hell is this! lol
This doesn't make any sense
I wonder why does the brain create such associations

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Originally Posted by Rusal

@Tallmo, I think internalized visualizations of numbers and years are commmon to all. Synesthesia is rare, but Si leads can have experiences like "green orgasm" probably because of intensive and extensive focus on the sensation.

*easy question to all here: what do the quadras look like to you? For me they open like a horizontal lane and my inner eye floats on Beta for some reason. I have to 'go back' to hover over Alpha, for example. We all have these personal formations.

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I don't associate anything visual with quadras nor anything, but when I think of some quadras clouded and fuzzy images of stereotypical types may pass through my mind, I can't even describe because it's so cloudy that I don't even know if they're actually images, but I can recognize their meaning and I know what they are referring to. It's pretty much like trying to remember a dream

Most of the descriptions above seem weak logic and an intuitive process.

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Originally Posted by Tommy

Most of the descriptions above seem weak logic and an intuitive process.

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could you elaborate on this?

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Originally Posted by Tallmo

I have some kind of synesthesia because I visualize numbers and years. It has always been the same patterns. It resembles the clock and then the pattern repeats itself with some variation for greater numbers. I don't actually see anything concrete, but I visualize it for my inner vision. It happens involuntarily. Since I was a kid. I can zoom in on the pattern and see it from different perspectives.

Months go in a circle with winter up and summer down. Now we are going up towards winter, so when someone talks about "Christmas is soon" I feel where it is in space.

It was only recently I realized that the same clock pattern is pretty common.

But I don't really see any connection with Si. But maybe with weak intuition.

1 to 100:

https://i.imgur.com/GD3EIx6m.jpg


1 to 20:

https://i.imgur.com/86uDCd4m.jpg


Years, from present looking back in time towards middle ages (3D perspective):

https://i.imgur.com/lFpBjgUl.jpg

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Some people just think things funnily.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_q0c720Py9I

I just see that stuff as strange. I just start from a very thick fog (it is so easy to be thrown in darkness so to speak and grind a way out) and work out several solutions. This Tammet dude starts from a place that is filled with details. I start from a thick soup that makes no sense. In a way I see these modes as the opposite ends of process oriented thinking. Can they meet in the middle?

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Originally Posted by Comatose Lamiac 007

Some people just think things funnily.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_q0c720Py9I

I just see that stuff as strange. I just start from a very thick fog (it is so easy to be thrown in darkness so to speak and grind a way out) and work out several solutions. This Tammet dude starts from a place that is filled with details. I start from a thick soup that makes no sense. In a way I see these modes as the opposite ends of process oriented thinking. Can they meet in the middle?

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I am skeptical of this guy, he seems to use mnemonic techniques to remember stuff.

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Originally Posted by Megatrop

I am skeptical of this guy, he seems to use mnemonic techniques to remember stuff.

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Eh? He has been like that from his childhood. Besides a technique does not guarantee a result and he has documented (supervised by neuroscientists) his shapes in clay to prove that consistency remains.

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Originally Posted by Comatose Lamiac 007

Eh? He has been like that from his childhood. Besides a technique does not guarantee a result and he has documented (supervised by neuroscientists) his shapes in clay to prove that consistency remains.

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it's strange that he's the only "savant" that is capable of explaining how he can perform his tricks.
He's just a high IQ guy fooling around with everyone LOL

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Originally Posted by Megatrop

it's strange that he's the only "savant" that is capable of explaining how he can perform his tricks.
He's just a high IQ guy fooling around with everyone LOL

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And IQ is a black box mounted in your brain? Are you saying that our cognition is just the same with different bandwidths? If that is so socionics is not certainly for you.

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Originally Posted by Cybel

Sometimes, in a very quiet environment, while I'm doing something that takes a lot of visual weightlifting like browsing art, I start seeing colors? And shapes and sometimes sound. Never words or numbers. I think I can consciously make it grow louder but don't see any reason to, so it's quite faded and in the background most of the time. I think it's getting more frequent and I'm getting a better grasp of it as I get older. Possibly going insane. It's like everything has an aura. In normal life doing normal stuff it goes away :(

Anyway, making a post because it's interesting.

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Mb its related to some visual illusions or visual effects? When you look at for example a red square for 20 seconds and then you look a white wall you are going to see the same square in purple floating in your visual field. If its a complex picture you could start "seeing" shapes outside the picture for some minutes or seconds.

For example if you look at the white dot in the nose of the woman for 15 seconds and then change your sight to the white space you will see her picture in color.

https://www.zamarripa.es/blog/wp-con...r-fantasma.jpg

Anyway, you see shapes and sometimes sound? How is seeing sound?

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Originally Posted by Megatrop

could you elaborate on this?

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I mostly think with words in a monologue which could be extroverted logic. There's no images, there's nothing, just my voice in a monotone dialogue. I've talked with other ISTP and say the same. Visualizing abstract things like what Tallmo shared, could be a way to process logic information for non T or maybe is related to N. The clock or time pattern mb is Ni. Ni types especially NF, seem to make more strange associations and create weird patterns (Chocolatte and Emily for example) as mind constructions that are no based in logic. They also enjoy creating and recreating in such content. It can escalate in complexity too.

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Originally Posted by Cybel

Involuntarily experience their perceptions.
Project sensations outside the mind, such as seeing colors floating through the air when they hear sounds.
Have a perception that is the same each time.
Have a perception that is generic, such as seeing a shape in response to a certain smell, but not seeing something more complex.
Remember the secondary synesthetic perception better than the primary perception.
Have emotional reactions such as pleasurable feelings linked to their perceptions.

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What does it means with "perception"?

@Tallmo I visualize summer as being on top and winter as being on the bottom!
It surprised me how you visualize time as a line that seems to curve arbitrarily.
For me there is some weird perspective involved, but in the end it's linear and goes left --> right, unlike you.

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Originally Posted by Rusal

*easy question to all here: what do the quadras look like to you? For me they open like a horizontal lane and my inner eye floats on Beta for some reason. I have to 'go back' to hover over Alpha, for example. We all have these personal formations.

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I see it similarly. It's interesting how your eye floats on Beta. Mine does too, except I belong to Beta. When I bring my eye to Delta I feel very far away and like I'm near the edge of the reel. Even though though technically Alpha is after Delta. But for some reason my mind doesn't repeat it like how it repeats Monday after Sunday and January after December. I don't feel on the edge with Alpha because of the direction Alpha->Beta->Gamma->Delta.

Alpha
Beta
Gamma
Delta
But it's really because those are the colors I see A, B, C, and D as.

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Originally Posted by Tommy

Mb its related to some visual illusions or visual effects? When you look at for example a red square for 20 seconds and then you look a white wall you are going to see the same square in purple floating in your visual field. If its a complex picture you could start "seeing" shapes outside the picture for some minutes or seconds.

For example if you look at the white dot in the nose of the woman for 15 seconds and then change your sight to the white space you will see her picture in color.

https://www.zamarripa.es/blog/wp-con...r-fantasma.jpg

Anyway, you see shapes and sometimes sound? How is seeing sound?

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It is very faint. Just barely enough so I can notice it. Also in a very very quiet environment. But things produce an aura. It can sometimes happen with people too, which is easier to describe. They look like plants! Very dependent on their personality. If I listen to a very good playlist with a theme I can imagine it as a fantasy landscape, sometimes a world full of dandelions and sometimes filled with pink soap. It is mostly just imagination of how something that has a strong impression might “feel” tbh, nothing more. The imagination might be so strong I can really see it, feel it, hear it though. But still faint. It only lasts for a bit and I never lose touch with reality.

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Originally Posted by Tommy

I mostly think with words in a dialogue which could be extroverted logic. There's no images, there's nothing, just my voice in a monotone dialogue. I've talked with other ISTP and say the same. Visualizing abstract things like what Tallmo shared, could be a way to process logic information for non T or maybe is related to N. The clock or time pattern mb is Ni. Ni types especially NF, seem to make more strange associations and create weird patterns (Chocolatte and Emily for example) as mind constructions that are no based in logic. They also enjoy creating and recreating in such content. It can escalate in complexity too.

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Ni is so weird. Their brain must be like Picasso’s painting. My main inner voice barely exists, I can’t pinpoint it. Just words and their meaning into the brain. Sometimes it gets really harsh and insane like there’s demons in there telling me negative and cruel things. Sometimes when I’m calming myself down it gets female and motherly like it’s talking to a little kid, I imagine it’s a benevolent princess. Those two voices seem separate beings from myself, although I know that is not the case. Overall pretty standard. A monotone inner voice is hilarious, I wonder what people who think in two languages feel like.

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Originally Posted by Cybel

Ni is so weird. Their brain must be like Picasso’s painting. My main inner voice barely exists, I can’t pinpoint it. Just words and their meaning into the brain. Sometimes it gets really harsh and insane like there’s demons in there telling me negative and cruel things. Sometimes when I’m calming myself down it gets female and motherly like it’s talking to a little kid, I imagine it’s a benevolent princess. Those two voices seem separate beings from myself, although I know that is not the case. Overall pretty standard. A monotone inner voice is hilarious, I wonder what people who think in two languages feel like.

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Is my normal voice and is kinda monotone as usual. Having an emotional internal voice would be too uncomfortable probably. I think in two languages and it feels the same as thinking in one. The two voices thing sounds creepy. I wonder if some other ppl in here has similar experiences.

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Originally Posted by Cybel

It is very faint. Just barely enough so I can notice it. Also in a very very quiet environment. But things produce an aura. It can sometimes happen with people too, which is easier to describe. They look like plants! Very dependent on their personality. If I listen to a very good playlist with a theme I can imagine it as a fantasy landscape, sometimes a world full of dandelions and sometimes filled with pink soap. It is mostly just imagination of how something that has a strong impression might “feel” tbh, nothing more. The imagination might be so strong I can really see it, feel it, hear it though. But still faint. It only lasts for a bit and I never lose touch with reality.

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Imagining things with music happens to me too. Probably it happens to most ppl or at least those who enjoy music.

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Originally Posted by Tommy

Imagining things with music happens to me too. Probably it happens to most ppl or at least those who enjoy music.

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That’s really cool! What’s your musical inner world like? :D For me it is almost always a landscape, a world of mirrors or glass or grass or neon. Listening is different from creating. When I make a playlist I focus on a specific aura I am trying to create, a mix of emotions and sensations, a couple images very focused on concentrating. It is less cool than it seems, just extremely picky when it comes to music. I am currently into more ethereal inhuman sounding stuff like electronica or ambience or breakcore, not sure why. Also tried making playlists for fictional characters before to capture their essence, not as good as it..

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Originally Posted by Tommy

Is my normal voice and is kinda monotone as usual. Having an emotional internal voice would be too uncomfortable probably. I think in two languages and it feels the same as thinking in one. The two voices thing sounds creepy. I wonder if some other ppl in here has similar experiences.

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You’re religious right? I know no two people have the same spiritual experiences but personally I genuinely believe that demons exist. When you abuse and inflict trauma you pass on your demons onto others, sometimes a whole family or nation can be caught in one’s grasp. My experience with mental illness has caused actual physical pain sometimes, or like I’m being choked and something’s sitting on my lungs, what else could cause it? I have researched extensively into self-help stuff, the normal stuff helps a lot but it doesn’t get to the heart of the neuroses... so that taunting inner critic, I cannot help but personify it. It is just a way of seeing the world.

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Originally Posted by chocolatte

@Tallmo I visualize summer as being on top and winter as being on the bottom!

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yes, some people have told me they see it that way. I just realized that I almost always have the feeling "where we are" on the circle of the year. Now in November, I have a "spatial feel" of the current month. Not just when talking about time, but it seems to be almost permanent. It's 50% an inner visualization and 50% a spatial feel.

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It surprised me how you visualize time as a line that seems to curve arbitrarily.
For me there is some weird perspective involved, but in the end it's linear and goes left --> right, unlike you.

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The curve is based on the clock. But "the clock" is seen from above, so it seems flatten. The millennium 1000 to 2000 goes from 1 to 10 on the clock. Now we are standing at 10 (close to year 2000) looking down on the past millennium. The decades and centuries that are closer seem bigger (they also have individual clock patterns). In the distance we see the first millennium (0 to 1000, another clock pattern, here flatten).

So there are macro and micro clock patterns into each other, like a fractal or something. And then everything is twisted by the perspective.

The picture is supposed to have a lot of spatial depth, but it is hard to draw. I emphasized the clock pattern of the past millennium with pink.

https://i.imgur.com/gyxjqC0l.jpg

I don't think this is synesthesia at all but to me summer is first a plate.. then that plate cracks and another crack forms. We have summer and winter now. Now it begins to diffuse and we see mb seasons represented completely "senseless" way. I can't capture it really as it morphs itself. So my mind didn't even answer to the question of summer, lol. It just draws parallels. I think every object I try to define is completely a senseless representation of it's real life counter part but it also morphs easily. This actually reminds me of one EII who had troubles at labelling things as she formed a mental representation of an object bit like I do (I can also forget words as washing powder because I represent it bit like detached from reality sort of way).

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Originally Posted by Megatrop

What the hell is this! lol
This doesn't make any sense
I wonder why does the brain create such associations

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Numbers are abstract so in order to make sense of them they are connected to something visual. The clock was the first visual connection to numbers I experienced as a child, so the mind took it as a theme and expanded on it.

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Originally Posted by Ania

@Tallmo I don't entirely get it lol
you feel like numbers are inherently located somewhere in space? 'inherently' as in synesthetically.

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Just the same way as you imagine anything involuntarily, like when talking about a person or a place. You "see" it in your inner vision. So numbers are located spatially according to this pattern. It's like an imagination that is being activated every time when a number is mentioned.

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Originally Posted by Ania

right, but what is the reasoning for the spatial-numerical connection? or it 'just is'?

maybe it's because my brain is not wired to see that, so it feels quite 'alien' to me.

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It just is. It is involuntary. I can only speculate about the reasons (see my post above). I am so used to it that I almost never reflect about it. One can say it's like a permanent day dream.

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Originally Posted by Ania

maybe it's because my brain is not wired to see that, so it feels quite 'alien' to me.

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Do you have any other kind of mental activation when thinking about a number or a year, if it is not a visual imagination? Like how do you relate to them?

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Originally Posted by Tommy

I mostly think with words in a monologue which could be extroverted logic. There's no images, there's nothing, just my voice in a monotone dialogue. I've talked with other ISTP and say the same. Visualizing abstract things like what Tallmo shared, could be a way to process logic information for non T or maybe is related to N. The clock or time pattern mb is Ni. Ni types especially NF, seem to make more strange associations and create weird patterns (Chocolatte and Emily for example) as mind constructions that are no based in logic. They also enjoy creating and recreating in such content. It can escalate in complexity too.

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Numbers are abstract. These visualizations are a way to make them concrete. So I see it as weak, not strong N. They are related to ability to grasp things spatially though.

I remember an IEE telling me that she never sees anything visual with numbers, she only has a feel of its matemathical properties, like what it can be divided with etc.

@Tallmo by numbers visualized spatially, do you mean that in your internal screen display you see something like “one” as a dot in top left corner, and “two” as another dot or two dots beside it or something?

Or are they also in a clock shape? Does it vary, are they similar variations?

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Originally Posted by sbbds

@Tallmo by numbers visualized spatially, do you mean that in your internal screen display you see something like “one” as a dot in top left corner, and “two” as another dot or two dots beside it or something?

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It's like in the pictures I shared. But it is actually more fuzzy. I don't imagine any sharp dots or lines, and the perspective and zooming can change drastically. So I can "sit" on different parts of the pattern and look in different directions.

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Originally Posted by Tallmo

yes, some people have told me they see it that way. I just realized that I almost always have the feeling "where we are" on the circle of the year. Now in November, I have a "spatial feel" of the current month. Not just when talking about time, but it seems to be almost permanent. It's 50% an inner visualization and 50% a spatial feel.



The curve is based on the clock. But "the clock" is seen from above, so it seems flatten. The millennium 1000 to 2000 goes from 1 to 10 on the clock. Now we are standing at 10 (close to year 2000) looking down on the past millennium. The decades and centuries that are closer seem bigger (they also have individual clock patterns). In the distance we see the first millennium (0 to 1000, another clock pattern, here flatten).

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It's interesting that you say "circle of the year". I had never imagined a year like a circle. I would probably imagine part of the year being a certain position in a straight line leading to the target or something like that.

For me numbers have no special visual representation. It's just a normal character. Like 10 for me is just "10", nothing else. If I count from 1 to 100, my mind will just have a distorted blurry image of each number appearing one after the other in space, since I can't see anything with my mind I can only have a basic sketch that reminds me of the real objects.

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Originally Posted by chocolatte

@Tallmo I visualize summer as being on top and winter as being on the bottom!
It surprised me how you visualize time as a line that seems to curve arbitrarily.
For me there is some weird perspective involved, but in the end it's linear and goes left --> right, unlike you.



I see it similarly. It's interesting how your eye floats on Beta. Mine does too, except I belong to Beta. When I bring my eye to Delta I feel very far away and like I'm near the edge of the reel. Even though though technically Alpha is after Delta. But for some reason my mind doesn't repeat it like how it repeats Monday after Sunday and January after December. I don't feel on the edge with Alpha because of the direction Alpha->Beta->Gamma->Delta.

Alpha
Beta
Gamma
Delta
But it's really because those are the colors I see A, B, C, and D as.

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What? Am I the only sane person here? No offense LOL

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Originally Posted by Megatrop

What? Am I the only sane person here? No offense LOL

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Bold of you to assume there's objective sanity and that you possess it.

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Originally Posted by Megatrop

It's interesting that you say "circle of the year". I had never imagined a year like a circle. I would probably imagine part of the year being a certain position in a straight line leading to the target or something like that.

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There are many examples of year circle synesthesia

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Originally Posted by Tallmo

Numbers are abstract. These visualizations are a way to make them concrete. So I see it as weak, not strong N. They are related to ability to grasp things spatially though.

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Very interesting! Your first post already made me wonder:
- why it was purely abstract concepts that you tried to mentally represent?
- why did you use linguistic symbols instead of their related contents?(the date "2020" or the number "2" as signs, not as a year with specific contents or a quantity)


Made some research. A more appropriate term for this mental phenomena is "ideasthesia". From the wikipedia article:

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While "synesthesia" meaning "union of senses" implies the association of two sensory elements with little connection to the cognitive level, empirical evidence indicated that most phenomena linked to synesthesia are in fact induced by semantic representations. That is, the linguistic meaning of the stimulus is what is important rather than its sensory properties. In other words, while synesthesia presumes that both the trigger (inducer) and the resulting experience (concurrent) are of sensory nature, ideasthesia presumes that only the resulting experience is of sensory nature while the trigger is semantic.

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It might be linked to weak intuition as you suggest. When I really think of numbers, I don't picture anything. What I perceive is more a feeling of the essence of numbers, beyond their representation or pronunciation, basically beyond language, exemples or space. A pure "mental intuition" of quantity. I think that's what Plato talks about in his theory of Forms...

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Originally Posted by Cybel

You’re religious right? I know no two people have the same spiritual experiences but personally I genuinely believe that demons exist. When you abuse and inflict trauma you pass on your demons onto others, sometimes a whole family or nation can be caught in one’s grasp. My experience with mental illness has caused actual physical pain sometimes, or like I’m being choked and something’s sitting on my lungs, what else could cause it? I have researched extensively into self-help stuff, the normal stuff helps a lot but it doesn’t get to the heart of the neuroses... so that taunting inner critic, I cannot help but personify it. It is just a way of seeing the world.

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I believe they exist, too. Our biology and life experiences (early traumas, conditioning, family history) have a lot to do with our mental state, but there is real evil that works against us and uses those things against us.

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Originally Posted by Emily

I believe they exist, too. Our biology and life experiences (early traumas, conditioning, family history) have a lot to do with our mental state, but there is real evil that works against us and uses those things against us.

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This is interesting. Is this something you experience first hand, or is it an opinion you have developed? Or do you have a feeling/intuition for what demons are and that they affect us. It would be nice to know more.

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Originally Posted by Tallmo

This is interesting. Is this something you experience first hand, or is it an opinion you have developed? Or do you have a feeling/intuition for what demons are and that they affect us. It would be nice to know more.

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Hey, yes, it's a belief I have based in my faith in God, being a Christian, etc. As a finite being, it's hard to say what exactly is influenced by the supernatural and what isn't. I definitely don't have many answers for that and am not always sure the extent to which the supernatural is impacting a situation, I just believe it is. I also try to avoid falling into the superstitious trap of seeing the devil in everything, since I think that's often a distraction from actually dealing with the situation.

In general, Western society is very skeptical around this topic and tends to find natural explanations for most things rather than acknowledging the influence of something supernatural. However, I don't think science and the supernatural contradict each other at all.

I also think the choices we make open the door to being more or less influenced by evil.

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Originally Posted by Emily

Hey, yes, it's a belief I have based in my faith in God, being a Christian, etc. As a finite being, it's hard to say what exactly is influenced by the supernatural and what isn't. I definitely don't have many answers for that and am not always sure the extent to which the supernatural is impacting a situation, I just believe it is. I also try to avoid falling into the superstitious trap of seeing the devil in everything, since I think that's often a distraction from actually dealing with the situation.

In general, Western society is very skeptical around this topic and tends to find natural explanations for most things rather than acknowledging the influence of something supernatural. However, I don't think science and the supernatural contradict each other at all.

I also think the choices we make open the door to being more or less influenced by evil.

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thanks, so maybe based on faith and personal "philosophy", worldview. Not on actually sensing demons in real situations? (I think there are people who have these concrete perceptions of an evil demon present)

I'm also wondering if as an Ni type the concept "demon" / evil has more depth and meaning for you than for a non-Ni person.

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Originally Posted by Tallmo

thanks, so maybe based on faith and personal "philosophy", worldview. Not on actually sensing demons in real situations? (I think there are people who have these concrete perceptions of an evil demon present)

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Ah, no, I've had many experiences and times where I've sensed demonic forces, although not as much to do with my actual Se/Si senses like having a vision or hearing something or smelling something (I've heard of people having more concrete experiences like this). I have experienced deep fatigue after encounters with what I view as evil, though.

It's more like feeling attacked or oppressed in my mind and emotions, psychically or in my spirit. Certain environments and people feel spiritually oppressive to me, like I have to leave and get out. It's interesting to view it through the lens of type, because I could see different types feeling oppression in different ways.

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I'm also wondering if as an Ni type the concept "demon" / evil has more depth and meaning for you than for a non-Ni person.

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Now I'm wondering, too! Good question.

Your question really got me thinking about the ways different types would experience or acknowledge the presence of evil/supernatural things. And how my experiences line up very well with being Ni/Fe in nature.

Ime, sensors are more aware of manifestations perceived through 5 senses, while N types, especially Ni ethicals are more influenced through their emotions or mental world. Thought, the level or strenght of manifestations depends usually on how much access or rights someone has given to the entity. Their rights comes from the laws and hierarchy from the spiritual world. God and Jesus laws are above any demonic spirit they can't operate freely. Thats why is a shame when ppl don't believe in God and don't submit to law, because even demons know who Jesus is. But most ppl choose to remain ignorant, blind and deaf to superior and most important realities.

I think most of my non earthly imaginings are connected to Ni, most of them are purposeful. There’s this Tibetan thing where you imagine what your insecurities look like, feel like, smell like, until it appears before you as a persona or form of some kind. Very Ni heavy. I am honestly not sure if it’s all just bullshit sometimes. I do not think I understand the stuff as in depth as a Ni person can. Esoterica just hurts my brain after a while. For me improving Ni is not about improving time management skills or predicting the future, don’t give two shits about that. It is more about deepening the inner spiritual world, something I see as very important. Or is that Ne? idk. Someone once said that role is just misguided attempt to integrate DS into ego, believe there is truth in that.

edit: very attracted to Ni media, but not Ni people. unsure why. and only in certain amounts at a time. the bizarre and mysterious nature is very attractive. must prod and see what is behind the veil, except i am clumsy and blind and unsure of what the veil looks like exactly.

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Originally Posted by Cybel

I think most of my non earthly imaginings are connected to Ni, most of them are purposeful. There’s this Tibetan thing where you imagine what your insecurities look like, feel like, smell like, until it appears before you as a persona or form of some kind. Very Ni heavy. I am honestly not sure if it’s all just bullshit sometimes. I do not think I understand the stuff as in depth as a Ni person can. Esoterica just hurts my brain after a while. For me improving Ni is not about improving time management skills or predicting the future, don’t give two shits about that. It is more about deepening the inner spiritual world, something I see as very important. Or is that Ne? idk. Someone once said that role is just misguided attempt to integrate DS into ego, believe there is truth in that.

edit: very attracted to Ni media, but not Ni people. unsure why. and only in certain amounts at a time. the bizarre and mysterious nature is very attractive. must prod and see what is behind the veil, except i am clumsy and blind and unsure of what the veil looks like exactly.

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Is that really Ni? I'm just asking because as a very introspective person, it absolutely doesn't strike me as the type of thing I'd be inclined to do or find the value in doing.

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Originally Posted by chocolatte

Is that really Ni? I'm just asking because as a very introspective person, it absolutely doesn't strike me as the type of thing I'd be inclined to do or find the value in doing.

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Meh. I just automatically put weird religious stuff and esoteric imagery into Ni voodoo. Also trippy horror films and Lain. Stuff that has to do with occult symbolism, tapping into the collective unconscious BS, y'know. A lot of people in those communities are Ni doms, but not every Ni dom is into that stuff. It's like how I hate cooking even though I could be very good at it if I tried. There are quite a bit atheist Ni doms, stereotypes are bad agreed. It just has a lot of potential for Ni people I think. Also keep in mind I'm really desperate when it comes to mental self improvement therapy, I assume other people do it out of desperation too, it drives you to do crazy stuff sometimes. If I was a normal person I very much doubt I would care or know about this crap.

All this demon talk reminded me of something.

Occultist demon casting is ritualistic or repetitive. An attempt to implant an idea deep in your mind for later manifestations of the entity. The entitiy is probably your own brain.

You can do the same in Socionics.

Are you curious about Se, Ne, Si, IEs not in your Ego? Would you like to experience them? Apply the same principle. It exists by other names in esoteric tradition: “meditate on the color White and the wind”, “meditate on the god Mars”, whatever. Meditations that are to awaken the dormant side of your brain related to cognition/personality. So you read about Ni, for example. A couple of times. Several. Obsess over it. Most importantly, make the decision to experience Ni. It will happen.

This of course will not change your Ego: the brain can only take so much and the experience will be slightly tainted, a times as if you were under the influence, even. But it’s a peek.

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Originally Posted by Rusal

Occultist demon casting is ritualistic or repetitive. An attempt to implant an idea deep in your mind for later manifestations of the entity. The entitiy is probably your own brain.

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Hmmm. You make it sound as if you think it was brainwashing, but it doesn't have to be necessarily. Most people believe in supernatural entities out of their free will. Maybe you were talking about occultist sects where beliefs are indoctrinated?
Demons similarly to socionic IE are probably inherent to our cognition though, I agree :yup:

Of interest. Wikisocion attributes synaesthesia more strongly to dynamic types.

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Dynamics often develop a psycho-physiological phenomenon known as 'synaesthesia'—a complex relationship between the sensory modalities that results in confluence between them. Synchronized perception of color, sound, smell, and taste as a single complex gives Dynamics a special vividness in their perception of reality. Sometimes fusion of sensation is developed to such an extent that internal images appear indistinguishable from reality. For Statics, given the discreteness of their mental apparatus, regular synesthesia is usually a rare exception or the result of special training.

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Funny expressions such as he speaks "brown" and sings "yellow" sound much more synesthetic than automated mental responses (symbolic value being rather low in those descriptions).