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:shrug: while you guys argue about this, the country is going to go to shit, the big liberal democrat cities will suffer like Detroit e_e and the US will lose it's global hegemony leaving the power vacuum to be filled by Russia and China.
e_e China then will screw Africa for land and resources, they don't give a fuck about Africans..
Jesus Christ, if African Americans and European Americans can't get along, just fucking separate into different states..
:popcorn:
This was hardly an argument. This was toying with an edgy race-baiter's thread. I guess he got flustered and regretted the STEM and Starbucks memes. Who knows.
When did this become African Americans vs European Americans? I see many races of people involved in protesting the police, property damage, and opportunistic looting.
And lol, you "give a fuck about the Africans" now? Sure...
Quote:
Originally Posted by shotgunfingers
no, actually I stopped because it felt like this and I felt sorry for u LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by inaLim
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ym42lV1ka8
it wasn't an argument because u still haven't proved anything wrong dummy lol. there is no systemic racism and BLM is stupid.Quote:
Originally Posted by inaLim
u listed a study from 2016 on one city, another study on the use of force with no conclusion on its justification. AND???
and no i won't read ur studies, read them YOURSELF LAZY BUM lol and make ur point.
And plz, do not make demands/talk to me like im ur boyfriend. "GIVE ME YOUR CRITERIA" "READ THIS WHOLE PDF AND TELL ME"
lol wtf GTFO of here with that bullshit.
u people need to stop living in delusion.
Yes, the protestors are burning everything down; that’s the point im making. I only listed starbucks as one example. I DGAF ABOUT STARBUCKS WHY DO PEOPLE THINK THIS LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by Pirouette
but the mayors don’t understand that these protestors want to take them down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pirouette
and trust me the half the protestors are dumb (do u actually think they read and think about this?) they don’t know how the system even works, they just think police are racist when they hear bad news and are bored so they destroy stuff.
these protests are mainly about police brutality...all the other stuff u've mentioned is irrelevant
Yeah, that’s the point I’m making.... And they should stop because the police are not racist and BLM does not care about black peopleQuote:
Originally Posted by Pirouette
This is the political section. And 99% of everyone thinks the same here. There are also a lot of people that read this stuff and their understanding of the facts/situation is off. If people actually understood the things of the matter we wouldn’t have buildings destroyed for no reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pirouette
I can tell ur understanding of the situation is very small as well. Educate yourself, it does wonders.
And why do you care what I do? Lol. Even if I help just one person that's all I care about. Sorry if u just come here to waste time
I don’t care about being liked. I’m telling everyone the truth of the matter instead of saying “Donald trump sucks!!” “police is racist!!!” every 2 seconds and burning building down for no reasonQuote:
Originally Posted by Pirouette
Contrary to popular belief there is an objective truth...
Let me ask you,
IS IT OK FOR ME TO BURN UR BUSINESS DOWN YES OR NO?
IS IT OK FOR ME TO BE MAD IF MY OWN BUSINESS WAS BURNED DOWN FOR NO REASON YES OR NO?
The answer is NO... I don't care what your opinion is this is plain WRONG.
WHY IS IT BAD TO POINT OUT THIS IS WRONG?
????Quote:
Originally Posted by Pirouette
of course u would say that. u just label me and others out of emotion like another intolerant piece of shit
GTFO don't waste my time
e_e I wonder if not feeling anything when seeing a sappy story on the news and the urge to troll / devil's advocate in juicy threads like this is Fi PolR. I am incapable of feeling anything for people I don't personally know :(. I'm afraid whatever I'll say it will just come off as morally reprehensible.Quote:
Originally Posted by inaLim
Recently a SLI has brought to my attention how bad it is to be on the receiving end of what I naturally do so I wish to avoid that here again.
https://66.media.tumblr.com/780d7e40...uagygq_540.jpg
Your not adding to the actual argument (systemic racism, BLM)ur just bitching at this pointQuote:
Originally Posted by Pirouette
Goodbye ur done
:popcorn:
nah u seem like like a genuinely cool person, i just don't want to derail too much thats all...Quote:
Originally Posted by Pirouette
im gonna ignore any:
1. bf/gf shouting matches
2. anything related to sipping starbucks/browsing facebook (I use neither btw)
3. why im mean
4. my font size
etc...
I hope u understand
Every few months, some new oversize text, ransom-note alternating font, meme poster pops out of the woodwork. (I get it, you're touchy about the fonts. Not my fault it seems to be the red flag for crazies) The only interesting thing is figuring out whether its one of the mentally ill ones with a manifesto, or just another boring kid stirring the pot.Quote:
Originally Posted by onfireee
Reactions like "no u stink," "dummy," "like im ur boyfriend" show which you are. At least the crazy manifesto people don't delete their posts.
4/10 Nothing new here.
righhhhhhht cry me a riverQuote:
Originally Posted by inaLim
I've been on this forum for 10 years now :8*
Ok, I want to ask a question to you all, because the word is thrown around too frequently to mean too many various things. What is systemic racism? Compare and contrast was is v.s. isn't systemic racism. The words systemic and racism are both incredibly generalized terms. To me, racism isn't always a bad thing. For example, if you know a particular race is more likely to scalp you, then it would be wise to have some hesitancy when approaching said race. You could refer to that as culturism, but there still is a correlation between the race of an individual and the cultural trends.
People throw around the term implicit bias a lot, which annoys the fuck out of me. Blacks commit almost 50% of the murders, while only comprising around 13-20% of the population(depending on what you define as black). Blacks kills blacks at an enormously high rate v.s. whites killing blacks. Blacks kill whites at a nearly identical rate than other whites despite not traveling nearly as much in their social circles and having a much smaller population. It is only logical to be more fearful of a black person approaching you than a white person. Now to what extent is a different question entirely. Many have irrational fear levels. Many inexperienced cops have irrational fear levels. There are many jackasses in police forces with authoritarian complexes and may have actual true racist motives. I don't think most cops are like "hey let's go kill some of those black fuckers". Blacks are killed by cops at a much higher rate, but cops are also killed by blacks at a much higher rate. Poverty plays a large role in the process. Blacks also tend to have families consisting more of single mothers than whites by a large margin. Blacks tend to be persecuted more frequently for non-violent crimes than whites. Blacks also tend to get stiffer penalties in the criminal court system. This leads them to be more likely to commit said violent crimes that I stated at the top. I can go on for days and days discussing this, but the whole thing is a big circular fuck up, and we as a society will never untangle the knot unless we actually discuss it. I get society wants to go primal mode right now and break shit, that's great... society sucks currently. This isn't going to actually fix racism though.
Right I don't think its racist to be scared if you're walking down a dark alley late at night and u see a black dude in a hoodie approaching you. I'd be scared!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitta
This is not racist but im sure people would tell u otherwise.
Here in this video back in the day, after I won, i asked my dad what he thought:
:love:Quote:
Dad:"I'd thought you lose"
Me: "why???"
Dad "because he was black"
PS:
Yea i hated wearing spandex
Does systemic racism have a meaning that can be spelled out in a simplified way, instead of uh, the vague and broad "part of the system" understanding? I don't use the term but I do like it insofar as I think it helps provide a contrast to the idea of racism as part of an individual's personal value system. Or a feeling. Lol. I don't think of racism in terms of how I feel if I'm in a dark alley and see a random black dude but I swear that's how my aunt Nancy on her farm in Iowa perceives it and she thinks that there can't be any issue between police officers and black people if the cops don't feel racist in their hearts lol. And I see all this defensiveness of whites against being called "racist" like it's personal and I want to scream at everyone to stop being such a sensitive girl in their feelings lol. In a world where there is not a single police officer or employee in the police department with an ounce of The Bad Feeling, it's still possible that unarmed blacks could be shot by cops four times as often as other races. Because it's unrelated to anybody's dang FEEEEEEEEELINGS ok I'm sure yours are impeccable, Nancy, I swear I'm not judging you personally. This difference between a statistic and a FEEEEELING basically sums up my definition of "systemic" but I am curious how the actual definition could be dumbed down.
I think the challenge for people is how to understand it as something other than a feewing. It is for me, at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by ashlesha
Ok now we have some people who I think want to talk in good faith.
@ashlesha yes it does. I'll boil it down to two parts that won't get us dragged into feels.
1 - System. This when it (targeting people based on their race, not targeting people based on having committed a crime) happens at multiple levels of organizational structure/culture in one department - policies, personnel, supervision, accountability etc. As opposed to a collection of isolated cases of bad eggs.
Showing this takes a federal investigation (FBI, US Dept of Justice) or local task force by a mayor or city council, or for the police to do an internal review on themselves.
2 - Pervasive. This is when it happens across many jurisdictions - Baltimore, Chicago, Los Angeles, etc - or multiple branches - Police, Courts, Lawmaking. As opposed to just the NYPD for instance. Showing this takes a meta-study of a whole lot of other studies.
These kind of studies are not going to be able to “prove” whether all cases are justified or not, or all the other little goal-post moving gymnastics people like to do when talking about this stuff. Its just too much background checking to do for every department. Thats what #1 are for.
Wouldn’t that be more evidence to racism being systemic rather than an individualized personalized case then (like what @ashlesha explained)? Unless you’re saying what your dad did was just an isolated case of racism.Quote:
Originally Posted by onfireee
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitta
I think it stems from people’s instinct to exploit others, and also to band together in groups and against other groups, and to take things at face value.
It’s really convenient for rich people to keep a huge group of people on the bottom doing the shit work to elevate themselves. So that creates a motivation to keep the huge group, “black people” at the bottom. They were already given a handicap by being slotted in as slaves.
It’s making certain groups of people the “whipping boy” for decades upon decades, creating a snowballing cycle that is difficult if not impossible to escape. Like @inaLim said, it’s pervasive throughout many societal systems.
It’s done through various means such as media, keeping people in a psychologically inferior position. Not only do people hold certain expectations for themselves, others are also primed with certain expectations. It’s the self-fulfilling prophecy / placebo effect running its course on top of pre-existing setbacks via stereotypes and beliefs being fed to all members of society. It’s insidious because it’s natural to use mental heuristics, e.g ones with the motivation of “self-protection” and own-group bias.
That’s what makes it systemic. Society is inherently systemic. Races are inherently a socio-cultural construct. So racism is inherently systemic in any modern society that can access mainstream news and media.
But what will replace police tho if there's "no good way to do police?" Are we anti-personal property now too? Are we gonna go back to state-of-nature neolithic morality? Are we gonna go back to burning weak people alive because that's what they did back then? Idk what direction this is gonna go, very few options get actually presented.
I'll just wait and see if the CHAZ and Seattle work out tbh, good on them if it does. At least they're stfuing and doing something instead of sPreAdINg tHe WoRd about things they have no power over.
There is a "good way to do police." Clean house and go back to the days when each officer was assigned a neighborhood and had to "walk the beat" and get to know the people.
Maybe I should just put this in my sig...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ded-force.html
Crime dropped by nearly a third in New Jersey town where the police department was disbanded and replaced with cops who go door-to-door on their first day
Quote:
The former chief of the disbanded police Camden Police Department in New Jersey told on Tuesday how crime in the town went down after the department was torn up and replaced by one in which cops held neighborhood barbecues and went door-to-door to introduce themselves to residents in a bid to win their trust.
Camden got rid of its police department in 2013 after becoming known as one of the most violent towns in the US. A new police department replaced it and officers were taught to focus less on arrest quotas and more on making the community feel safe.
Since then, crime has gone down drastically; there were 67 murders in 2012 compared to 25 in 2019, and 65 excessive force complaints in 2012 compared to just three in 2019.
I was in a relationship with an american woman for almost five years. She once told me that when she saw a bunch of black guys somewhere in the US, she would take a detour around the block. When she saw a bunch of black guys over here in Holland, she just carried on. To her, the difference was that the black guys in Holland didn't make her feel threatened.Quote:
Originally Posted by onfireee
So the question is: why, to an American woman, are American black guys a threat, and Dutch black guys not? Could it be, e.g. because those black Americans have been treated badly generation after generation, have been pushed into the margins of society, where there was nothing left to them than to take what they need, if need be by force? Could it be that such structures have become structural to society, making it difficult to break existing patterns? That is what we are talking about when we are talking about systemic racism! We are not just talking about acts of racism, we are talking about structures that keep people stuck in hopelessness.
FWIW, with the provided examples above I do not want to imply that Holland is a paradise for black people. It isn't, over here we have systemic mechanisms of social exclusion just as well. However, compared to the US this systemic racism is of a different nature, as I found out myself: I have been met with hostility by black Americans on a regular basis, the distrust of African Americans towards white people is really huge from a Dutch perspective, and I have even heard black US expats to Europe saying they feel treated better over here (Miles Davis is a good example). But that doesn't mean we Dutch should praise ourselves, for we should not compare ourselves to other countries, we should compare ourselves to our own standards, and as such we fail just as much as any other country.
It's a cycle I agree with you, though you can't just point to one thing and say "Fix this!". There are so many variables in play. Hell, I could argue that Vitamin D levels because of black people's skin leaves them malnourished leaving them with lower IQs per average due to underdevelopment. It's very hard to separate race and culture. People that appear similar tend to coagulate. As a result, they go through similar patterns of development, have similar methylations and acetylations. These are now being shown to be handed down to offspring. People try to separate nature and nurture, but in a sense they are inseparable. Natural selection is slowly starting to be disproved. Races aren't as socio-cultural as many people want them to be... are better worded... they may be socio-cultural but that doesn't mean they aren't genetic. Many of the policies that are designed to help black people end up backfiring and actually make the situation worse. Is the US more racist now than it was during the civil rights movement? I think most people would answer no. So why do the stats like there being more single black mothers jump from like 20% to 70% during that period of time. There are a ton of stats like that where things should have improved with less racism, but they've only gotten worse. I think black people have been duped. They've been offered a system that was supposed to make things better for them but only made things worse as it's made them dependent on something that has stifled their growth. One of the big issues in the US is there is no market mobility at all. When something fails, it should fail. This allows new things to grow and build. I actually think some of the most racist policies in the US are the ones gift wrapped that make them look as though they are pro-equality. Black people chose the wrong leader for their civil rights moment. It shouldn't have been MLK jr. , it should have been Malcolm X. Malcolm X was like Whitey doesn't matter, don't beg for a job, create a job. MLK jr. just made black people dependent on a system that couldn't give a shit other than giving black people some free things to try to make them happy.Quote:
Originally Posted by sbbds
Is a person opposed to solutions to systematic racism (not in general, just specific solutions) racist?
@Hitta I disagree with some parts of that but agree with a lot of if it too. Yes, it’s a classic power move to oppress people further while presenting as if you’re trying to help them on the surface.
Basically I think systemic racism has influenced the world. It influences how a lot of “international aid” is approached and handled. NGOs and whatnot. Much of the time, it’s a system that, like you described, just fosters unhealthy dependence with negative pro-Western cultural biases, and further oppresses.
Therefore it’s not really possible anymore to get a truly fair read on things like race and IQ level. If even remote tribes are told that they’re being given “aid” from Westernized people from afar, and are people without the fruits of modernity who take biased tests created by those from a completely different lifestyle with inherently oppressive motivations, or preconceived notions, or at least a lack of understanding of their culture and an inability to relate and to design a test suitably, then testing is invalid. Tests are given top-down, wrt the power dynamic. That makes it inherently unscientific. ( @shotgunfingers )
Why is it that people wear suits and ties to international business meetings around the world in 99% of cases rather than other kinds of traditional garb? Because Western culture has pervaded everything, is viewed as inherently superior subconsciously, is associated with wealth and modernity.
I have no ides how to fix it on a systemic level, other than people trying their best to live in unbiased ways and not perpetuate negative or boxing-in stereotypes towards people on an individual level.
This is a perfect example of how racial perception is mostly social.Quote:
Originally Posted by consentingadult
To further demonstrate this point, a group of black American males wearing polished suits, holding suitcases and say wearing glasses would certainly not make most people feel threatened to walk by them. It’s about how people present themselves too and their posturing and vibes. But it’s not really a part of black American culture to be like that on their days off in the majority of cases, due to decades upon decades of oppression and a culture that was based in poverty.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pf_LQhcIO4g&t=316s
The Malcolm X segments sum up his views very well. People have been misinterpreting Malcolm X's ideas for a long time. He didn't believe in forced integration. He believe in black people developing their own power, their own institutions. If integration happened naturally overtime, that would have been fine. Malcolm X wanted black people to gain their dignity. If separation was required to initiate that process, then so be it. Without dignity, integration is pointless. That is the world we live in today, we live in the MLK Jr. world. The Fox created his lamb chops.
I remember USSR. We have several different looking ethnoses and even races.
No one cared much about your ethnicity or race. You just needed to do good your duties and to behave decently.
There was no discriminations in social sense. By several reasons:
1) anyone got similar education and same basic culture, despite his look or where he lived
2) we had mainly collectivistic ideals - to live for all, so had lesser of individs preferences input
3) from the beginning all were rather equal in material incomes and generally. we all were similar in social terms from the start and then
What USA calls as racism is more social segregation by culture and economic reasons. This segregation has strong innertia in capitalistic societies. Some descrimination is secondary to initial social difference. The situation is doubtful to be improved by artificial placing some blacks to more occupations, movies, games, hysterics in medias and streets, etc. - it's cosmetic changes.
Also.
The recent streets hooliganism about blacks seems is done artificially. May be linked with what happens because of viruses attack - to supress the protest against social changes and actions forced because of viruses.
Why does it seem artificial? Do you mean the social unrest at large or just the hooliganism?
https://bringmethenews.com/.image/t_...t-63958-pm.jpg
yes exactly, @consentingadult mentioned this earlierQuote:
Originally Posted by sbbds
if there's anyone that understands this it's me - growing up American but being treated as a foreigner/outsider your entire life. the thing with my dad was only a small snippet of this dark cloud that has always brooded over me...
racism for me wasn't the classic white vs black racism but the invisible/"you don't matter" racism.
trust me I understand.
if u follow that logic, sure, there is systemic racism and we are all somewhat racist.
but there's still levels to it.
one is my dad thinking "that black dude gonna whoop yo ass" and another level is "cops are killing black people purposely like savages"
and to group all police officers at this level and say they are going out of their way actively to hunt down black people.... I don't think this is fair.
i don't think people GET this and as a result the country is paying deeply for it
Sure lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by onfireee
Then there you go. You’re in part playing devil’s advocate towards your own point.
What you really want to say is that systemic racism is not impenetrable. And it’s part of ignorant thinking to make assumptions about people and group them under one umbrella. That’s the same kind of thinking that garners racism in the first place.
I agree, but on the other hand, it’s equally ignorant and naive to ignore the persistent and pervasive systemic effects, and just how far-reaching they can become.
Just because your dad’s racial comments are relatively innocent (even on that level, it’s still limiting and hurtful), doesn’t mean all instances of racism are harmless or innocent. You shouldn’t feel like your experiences have been erased because of more violent instances.
I’m biracial so, I also get it.
Listen, if we waste our time on semantics and political correctness, practically nothing will ever be resolved.Quote:
Originally Posted by sbbds
im not gonna cry everytime someone makes a ching chong ling long joke lol... my life would be miserable
the fact of the matter is burning buildings down and incorrectly labeling cops is downright wrong
Trust me, we're on the same team
on a more pessimistic note,
i'm being unrealistic to expect people to be reasonable, that never happens
i expect there to be more destruction and violence - i can't picture it ever being resolved unless the country blows up and we start back from scratch simply because we have too many people in this country and we're at the point of no return - too many conflicting cultures, values, ideas, etc etc its suppppppper hard to please everyone
I edited my post to include this:Quote:
Originally Posted by onfireee
”I agree, but on the other hand, it’s equally ignorant and naive to ignore the persistent and pervasive systemic effects, and just how far-reaching they can become.
Just because your dad’s racial comments are relatively innocent (even on that level, it’s still limiting and hurtful), doesn’t mean all instances of racism are harmless or innocent. You shouldn’t feel like your experiences have been erased because of more violent instances.”
you are 200% right @sbbds ... but thats the idealistic scenario. if we could wave our magic wands and make things better we all would..... but we have to be a little more pragmaticQuote:
Originally Posted by sbbds
Most people would agree that two wrongs don’t make a right, but I think dissatisfaction and aggression has to be allowed to run its course. Otherwise people will have the excuse that it was never allowed to be “let out”, and hold it over the heads of American leaders. It will dissolve over time on its own.Quote:
Originally Posted by onfireee
And I made my ching chong ling long joke ironically to illustrate my point that it exists lol, since I’m also Asian. Also reverse racism in a way since we’re stereotyped as being academic, but you didn’t post your sources.
so i should burn down buildings to let it out when i get mad? which buildings are okay to burn down? anything fair game? when is the line crossed? is there a line?Quote:
Originally Posted by sbbds
sorry im not expecting u to answer any of that. just want people to think
There are no rules for this kind of thing. Common sense says IMO that if certain actions are being taken against systemic racism in the US, then further riots won’t happen or be tolerated.Quote:
Originally Posted by onfireee
well u know what they say...Quote:
Originally Posted by sbbds
while violence isn't the only answer, it is the final answer.
if i started a country and people started fighting/complaining i would say GTFO immediately. lol sorry but seeing what the US has become this is a horror film where the bad guy keeps coming back to life
Shout out to the time Maritsa (I think) said black people were SEEs
Um.... do you not see the irony in saying that after a black guy was killed solely due to systemic racism? LolQuote:
Originally Posted by onfireee
Granted the riots are ironic of course too in that light. But if it takes more threat of “final answers” to fight back and get more attention on the issue, then it certainly works.
Some rioting and destruction isn’t going to kill massive hordes of people. A few may be killed accidentally in collateral, but in the long term it would save countless more lives from being continue to be killed pointlessly.
Something needs to be done because people are tired of these issues. Peace doesn’t draw in enough urgent attention sometimes.