LIE: Thanks for being so understanding. You're a goddess.
ESI: Yes, now kneel before me.
LIE: Yes, my queen.
This totally happened, and I didn't completely warp it into something way different than what actually took place. I swear. He is not going to break up with me when he reads this.
Lol. I totally believe this.
I have an ESI-Se buddy who will sometimes extend his arm expansively and address the imaginary crowd with the statement "I am a sex god. All women must bow before me."
He's joking, but he's not exactly joking. I mean, he said it, right?
After his wife left him, he put on about 150 lbs and he lives in an immaculate house with no furniture except a big screen TV for watching sports. But he still talks the same way.
As for @Noir's conversation above, if an ESI told me to kneel before her, I'd say "Fine, but after that, it's your turn."
I don't think I'm exactly a normal LIE. Close, but not exact. :)
11-04-2021, 02:54 AM
Nightmare
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
Lol. I totally believe this.
I have an ESI-Se buddy who will sometimes extend his arm expansively and address the imaginary crowd with the statement "I am a sex god. All women must bow before me."
He's joking, but he's not exactly joking. I mean, he said it, right?
After his wife left him, he put on about 150 lbs and he lives in an immaculate house with no furniture except a big screen TV for watching sports. But he still talks the same way.
As for @Noir's conversation above, if an ESI told me to kneel before her, I'd say "Fine, but after that, it's your turn."
I don't think I'm exactly a normal LIE. Close, but not exact. :)
Lol, I made all of this up just to playfully taunt him. I sent him the link after I posted it. The only part he actually said was, "Thanks for being so understanding." We like power struggle jokes, even though I always win. Personally, I wonder if it's related to Se, since it relates to competition, power dynamics, challenging, opposing, etc. Idk, arrogant humor (such as with your friend) is funny, though.
11-05-2021, 12:40 AM
Adam Strange
I was sort-of dating an ESI for about a year last year, and then I guess the way we were getting closer triggered her Fearful-Avoidant attachment style and we seem to not be talking anymore, but I'd like to say this to her:
Damn man, I know the feeling. I had that with the ESI-Se I was dating this summer. It hurts.
It feels like this elastic that one of the two pulls and distances. Then the draw gets you back to each other, and then the other one pulls away. You do that a couple of times until the band snaps.
I don't know what it is with the ESIs I know, but they generally seem so afraid of rejection that they never speak their mind and dig their own grave that way. Even the ones I know for years still rather keep quiet until they cannot bear the emotions anymore and cut off, instead of straight forward just saying it out in the open, so I and perhaps we can work on it.
What helps me when an ESI I know is acting off is to discuss my thoughts with a non-judgemental friend. Just speaking my thoughts helps me go over the possible reasons of why the ESI is drawing back. I generally do this with my LSI friend. He often says that he isn't able to offer me any advice on the problem itself, but that's no issue for me, I come to him because he's the only one who truly listens without judgement. I'd suggest you go meet up with your ESI coworker in the weekend and share your story about your decorator friend with him. Possibly he might even be able to provide some insights in what drives the decorator ESI's behaviour.
Perhaps she might just be caught up in her study. I know myself that university can eat up your time, all the programming I have to do for mine means I cannot meet up with my friends as frequent as I used to. Only this week I realized that a years-long ESI mate is acting off lately, because he is jealous of my classmates with whom I go out for drinks every week, whereas I hadn't seen him in a while. He tried to hide it, in order to not appear needy, but his strange behaviour only led me to think that he was angry with me. It's a good thing that I know him long enough to eventually infer his reasons, and you should try to infer the motives of your ESI decorator too, with a bit of assistance from your ESI coworker.
For how long has the silence of your decorator ESI been going on actually?
11-07-2021, 02:38 PM
Adam Strange
Quote:
Originally Posted by Armitage
Damn man, I know the feeling. I had that with the ESI-Se I was dating this summer. It hurts.
It feels like this elastic that one of the two pulls and distances. Then the draw gets you back to each other, and then the other one pulls away. You do that a couple of times until the band snaps.
I don't know what it is with the ESIs I know, but they generally seem so afraid of rejection that they never speak their mind and dig their own grave that way. Even the ones I know for years still rather keep quiet until they cannot bear the emotions anymore and cut off, instead of straight forward just saying it out in the open, so I and perhaps we can work on it.
What helps me when an ESI I know is acting off is to discuss my thoughts with a non-judgemental friend. Just speaking my thoughts helps me go over the possible reasons of why the ESI is drawing back. I generally do this with my LSI friend. He often says that he isn't able to offer me any advice on the problem itself, but that's no issue for me, I come to him because he's the only one who truly listens without judgement. I'd suggest you go meet up with your ESI coworker in the weekend and share your story about your decorator friend with him. Possibly he might even be able to provide some insights in what drives the decorator ESI's behaviour.
Perhaps she might just be caught up in her study. I know myself that university can eat up your time, all the programming I have to do for mine means I cannot meet up with my friends as frequent as I used to. Only this week I realized that a years-long ESI mate is acting off lately, because he is jealous of my classmates with whom I go out for drinks every week, whereas I hadn't seen him in a while. He tried to hide it, in order to not appear needy, but his strange behaviour only led me to think that he was angry with me. It's a good thing that I know him long enough to eventually infer his reasons, and you should try to infer the motives of your ESI decorator too, with a bit of assistance from your ESI coworker.
For how long has the silence of your decorator ESI been going on actually?
I'm sorry, @Armitage. The ESI that I was referring to in the penultimate post is a mature RN, not a student, and she's been silent for six weeks. Which might not be that long in her world. She's left me hanging between dates for six weeks before. But honestly, I'm not happy with the way she does not return my bids for attention in a timely manner. That is one of the best indicators of a bad relationship.
As for the interior decorator ESI, she's absolutely fucking normal as a person. I'm going to meet with her this afternoon. She returns my calls within a few minutes, or an hour at most, exactly like a normal person who is in a normal relationship that they value. Too bad she's a lesbian. She's otherwise almost perfect. She's e6 CP to my e8, Secure in her attachment style, smart as hell and a good therapist, and the only thing even slightly off is that she is ESI-Se and not ESI-Fi to my LIE-Te, but that means she has a warrior's body, which I appreciate.
11-07-2021, 02:53 PM
Adam Strange
A miracle! I met four ESIs in one day, and three of them were Dualized.
Let me explain.
I have two jobs. One job is getting money any way I can, and that usually takes the form of designing weapons systems for the government. But my other job is Parking Lot Attendant. That’s what I tell the IRS I’m doing, on my tax returns. Plus, Weapons Designer.
The Parking Lot Attendant job consists of parking cars in my yard on Football Saturdays. I live in the Burns Park neighborhood of Ann Arbor, close to the U of M Stadium, and the people attending games have to park somewhere, and I have a big yard. It only makes sense for us to merge our respective talents and needs.
Plus, parking thirty-six cars, eight times a year, at $40 to $60 per car almost covers the property taxes, so it works out.
But I also get to exercise dynamic Capitalism and meet a lot of people, both of which I love to do. And yesterday I met four ESIs, three of whom were with LIEs. Absolutely amazing!
Act One – Single ESI-Se
She arrived driving a small, pretty car with three passengers. She was blond, very overweight, and had her gruff-ESI greybeard dad in the back seat. He, like many sports-fan ESI-Se’s, was also overweight.
Since her car was so small, I thought I could use it to park in a place that blocks in two other cars, but I had to get her to promise to leave right at the end of the game, so the other people wouldn’t be blocked in for very long.
I asked her if she was going to stay for the whole game, and she quickly said Yes.
I then asked her if she was going to leave right at the end of the game, because I wanted to use her car to fill in a space in front of two other cars, and she’d be blocking them if she, for example, went to dinner after the game. In this way, I set out the problem for her.
Her face did an amazing thing. I could follow her thoughts perfectly as she considered the situation and her ethical part in it.
Now, most people just lie to me. After all, they don’t know me and they think that paying so much just to park their car in my yard entitles them to fuck me over a bit, because they feel fucked over a bit, and I get that, but she was doing something honest.
After a few seconds of consideration, she looked at me and said “Yes, we will leave at the end of the game.”
Now, if she had said she was going to stay later, I’d have parked her somewhere else, but she calculated that she would leave and she then made a promise to me that she would do as she promised.
Pure fucking ESI. I love it.
Act Two – Male LIE-0 and female ESI-0
A modest car pulled into the lot and the handsome guy driving was an obvious LIE. Probably an LIE-0, or possibly leaning a bit towards LIE-Te, and his female companion was not beautiful, but rather had a rough look, and might have been either an LSI or an ESI, it was hard to tell. He was about 3/10 steps better looking than she was.
As I parked them, I suggested that he let his companion? wife? out of the car so he could park closer to the next car over. She pulled her hair back in a way which showed me the ring on her finger but said nothing while he struggled to process what I had said (and whether he was going to take directions from a stranger), so I concluded that she was his wife.
When they got out of the car, I decided to find out if she was an ESI, so I asked him how they met?
He said they met in Med school. She still hadn’t said a word.
I said that they looked like a good couple, and I guessed that he was the logical one (if he balked at this, then his wife was LSI), and that his wife was one of those few people who could put up with him.
In true insipient ego-maniacal Doctor manner, he responded by saying “Well, that’s dark.”
Do you know that LIEs often poke each other without taking it personally? We do. It’s like two Knights, jousting. May the best man win the Princess.
His wife was listening to this conversation, and spoke up at this for the first time.
“It’s true”, she said. Implying that he was not easy to get along with and was an incipient asshole.
“See?”, I said. “She knows you.”
Damn, I envy them.
Act Three – Male LIE-Ni and female ESI-Se
A small car pulled up and an LIE-Ni leaned out of it and asked if he could park here? I have signs saying “Park Here”, so I assume that he normally had some trouble with Se.
He also looked almost exactly like Tom Ellis in the show Lucifer, except this guy looked dreamier and less aware.
“Sure”, I said.
“We’re only going to be staying until a half hour before the game starts. Can you give us a discount since you can sell the space again?”
Lol. Definitely an LIE leaning towards an ILI. Shave those nickels, dude.
I looked inside the car at his companion and the two little girls in the back. His companion was a very attractive ESI-Se; thin, blonde, intelligent, and smiling knowingly.
“Yes, I can do that. Park right here.” And he did.
As they were getting out of the car and preparing to head to the tailgate party, not the game itself, I watched as she strapped on a backpack and he placed the little girls into a double stroller. I listened to them talk and they were both from Eastern Europe, probably visiting professors or something.
He was definitely the female of the two, and she the male. He started pushing the stroller towards the stadium and I stopped him.
I said, “Wait. Before you go, I need to ask something. But not from you, but rather from your wife.” I turned to her and said “I need you to promise to be back here thirty minutes before the game, and to remind him of that. Because he’ll forget.”
She laughed at the truth of my statement and said “Yes, I will do that.” And off they went.
And thirty minutes before the game, they were back, as promised, and I sold their space again.
Act Four – Male ESI-Se and female LIE-Te
A pretty red SUV pulled into the lot and the driver was one of those male ESIs who is in his thirties and slender and always will be. He was slightly graying and had two kids in the car. I liked the guy immediately. He reminded me of my HS buddy.
I got him parked and his wife came around the car and I immediately saw that she was an LIE-Te. She looked vaguely mannish and yet incontrovertibly female. Solid-looking, like she was powerful in some far-off land. Exactly like the way this woman will look in ten years: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M507F0cw3c0
I stepped back and looked at the two of them.
“You know”, I said, “you two are really well-matched.”
“Nooooo”, the ESI said, dismayed. “Don’t tell her that. It will go to her head.”
She looked at him with an expression of “Stop it. I’d never betray you.”
For a minute, I didn’t know what to say. This was a new dynamic for me. But then I said “You’re a lucky guy. She really is a rare find. I’d say she’s one in a hundred. Or even rarer.” Because female LIEs really are not that common. In my entire circle of six hundred or so acquaintances, I know exactly two.
She smiled sweetly at him, but there was also steel in that smile. I could see it.
“Oh my god. Stop. She’s never going to stop talking about this.” She moved a bit closer to him. It was obvious that he was trying really hard to hold up a face that said he was in control of this relationship and was simultaneously worthy of it.
I decided to help him out here.
“On the other hand”, I emphasized with my finger, “there aren’t many guys who are smart enough to go for a girl like her.”
And they looked at each other and everything was even.
11-07-2021, 08:59 PM
Armitage
Thanks for your sympathy, Adam. The ESI-Se and I hit off well at first, but it went downhill after a while. He was a waiter who aspired for a career in modelling. Normally I get along more often with fellow academic guys, but his self-assuredness, determinition, and athleticism struck me. Things seemed promising, he even said that he was looking for something serious, committed, and long-term.
It went well for a time, until he began asking me for money to pay back what he had borrowed from his best friend. I explained to him that as a student I am in a tight corner too. He didn't mention it for a while, but then started asking for it again. I didn't want to outright say "No.", and being subtle about it seemed to have no lasting effect either, so I acted like I didn't understand him, laughed a bit sheepishly, and tried to divert the topic. He instead took it personally, because he thought I was laughing him out and he thus called me rude. Anyway, it clearly wasn't working and the guy was ignoring my boundaries already early when dating. It felt like he was only interested into me for my money, so I told him that and broke off with him.
A couple of days later he changed his profile picture to look tough. Yet I noticed that his smile lacked his characteristic confidence and his eyes missed the heart-piercing gaze that I fell for. Instead they betrayed a hinge of sadness, which he attempted to mask. At this point I still don't know if he did or did not feel anything for me, but alea iacta est.
11-07-2021, 11:19 PM
Adam Strange
@Armitage, the question of money and dating can be convoluted.
If I am on a date and I have asked her out, then I expect to pay for everything. If she asks me out, I expect her to pay for everything. And when I was married, the question of who pays for whatever basically came down to who had their credit card at hand, because it all came out of one pot.
But this is how I operate on first dates and marriage. The in-between is where things get weird.
I will say that I paid for everything on every date I had with the RN ESI, even though she made a good wage, and I eventually decided that I didn’t like that so much.
On the other hand, I’ve gone out (not on dates) with an ESI-Se student who doesn’t have two nickels to rub together and I paid for the first lunch and when I was about to pay for the second lunch, she said that she would get it, because I got it last time. And since then, we’ve gone Dutch, which means we each pay for what we order, and I realized that that’s what I like best in a woman.
11-08-2021, 10:35 AM
Armitage
If it had just been paying for the date, I would have been perfectly alright with it. Since I can be oblivious at times, I just openly ask the other person if they prefer me to pay for the date, if they want to pay, or if they want to split. Discussing a normally taboo topic that way provides insight into each other's values and prevents a whole lot of hassle, in my opinion. Especially since nowadays it's not a given anymore that men treat women, and in gay dating like in my case it's even more complicated.
The problem was that he didn't just ask me to pay for the date, but asked me to lend him money too. And he did not ask for pocket change, either. Asking to borrow money from me that early in a relationship seems to me like a red flag, especially when insisting on it repeatedly despite me voicing my objections. Even if it is to pay back one's best friend, asking me for money that soon means I'll be seen as Mr Piggybank for the rest of the relationship, instead of as his love. His focus on money made me feel unloved.
My psychology study taught me that most relationships break up over money disputes. And Stratiyevskaya warned ESIs that LIEs may unjustly claim ESI's money and that this is the main downfall of our duality. I thought that by keeping our finances separate I was doing the right thing.
When the ESI decorator started working on my house, she went through every single thing in the house. Then, after a process of discovery, she began to throw things out. Or sell them. And then she and I went shopping to buy new things, mostly to her taste, but I had veto power.
I had come to trust her before this point, so her removing walls and appliances and getting rid of almost all the furniture and anything that was associated with my ex-wife was OK with me. I made only a few exceptions, mostly with items which had memories associated with them. These she put into boxes which were out of sight and not seen daily, but were not entirely gone.
(She and I are still fighting over the white Corian sink upstairs that my ex-wife picked out. I like it for its clean lines and functionality, and the ESI wants it gone. I like it, not for any memories it has, but because I think it is actually in extremely good taste. The ESI seems to be approaching the goal of getting rid of it like the Terminator approached his goals. She's not giving up on this and won't be happy until she gets her way.)
Throughout this process, I had only one rule; she could get rid of anything she wants, but if I want a particular item for a functional house (like a couch or a stove), then she has to replace the bad item with something better.
For some reason, I don’t like to lose stuff. Even stuff that is no longer useful. She, in contrast, seems to like a process of frequent evaluation and renewal.
These preferences might have parallels in Capitalism. “Thou Shalt Accumulate”, and “A Cycle of Destructive Renewal.”
….Not to put too fine a point on it.
11-26-2021, 01:34 PM
Adam Strange
ESI to LIE: You’re a good boss.
LIE to ESI: Last month you said I was the reason that the world is such a fucked up place.
ESI to LIE: I feel that was in response to some very specific statement you made.
LIE to ESI: We’ll, you’re not wrong. I’m perfectly capable of doing some very fucked up things if I don’t get advice from you.
Anyway, I’m not your boss. We’re working together for our mutual benefit.
ESI to LIE: Partner, then. I don’t really know what to call it.
LIE to himself: Call it Love and Mutual Support, Miss Dual.
11-26-2021, 01:43 PM
Tarnished
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
For some reason, I don’t like to lose stuff. Even stuff that is no longer useful. She, in contrast, seems to like a process of frequent evaluation and renewal.
.
Because it's not her stuff lol.
My ESI Mom always try keep old stuff, especially the stuff that she have emotion attached to, like, her father old stuffs (a fucking LSE).
12-07-2021, 02:13 AM
spacious
LIE and ESI are riding hotel elevator on vacation
LIE chats with stranger asking about last night's game of the sports team for which the lady is wearing a t-shirt. ESI smiles, says nothing.
After the LIE and ESI exit the elevator, ESI asks the LIE what city the team was in. LIE says and ESI says "That's what I thought!" *pause* "Hockey?"
LIE *slight sideways glance/smirk* "No, football"
ESI "football??!!! They have a football team in that city? O_O"
LIE, while wrapping up lunch with ESI: "Let's go see if the hotel pool is open. Now we have a short window because the sun is so low down so it won't be out for long"
ESI "It is? How do you know these things?"
LIE "well it's winter so [explains]"
ESI thinks, how do everyday people get around to understanding what's behind weather phenomena?
12-07-2021, 03:56 AM
Adam Strange
Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderwoman
LIE and ESI are riding hotel elevator on vacation
LIE chats with stranger asking about last night's game of the sports team for which the lady is wearing a t-shirt. ESI smiles, says nothing.
After the LIE and ESI exit the elevator, ESI asks the LIE what city the team was in. LIE says and ESI says "That's what I thought!" *pause* "Hockey?"
LIE *slight sideways glance/smirk* "No, football"
ESI "football??!!! They have a football team in that city? O_O"
LIE, while wrapping up lunch with ESI: "Let's go see if the hotel pool is open. Now we have a short window because the sun is so low down so it won't be out for long"
ESI "It is? How do you know these things?"
LIE "well it's winter so [explains]"
ESI thinks, how do everyday people get around to understanding what's behind weather phenomena?
The sports question would have thrown me, but I know LIEs who are into sports. Se-HA.
As for weather phenomena, I can look at the sun and tell about how many minutes of daylight are left. It's simple. The sun moves 15 degrees per hour across the sky, which is 1/3 of the angular distance from the horizon to the point halfway to the zenith. (It's also a bit less than the angle that your splayed hand subtends at arm's length.) The season tells you the tilt of the sun's orbit and therefore the path it will take in the sky. All that's left is to imagine the path between the sun and its setting-point and divide it into 15 degree segments, and that's the hours until sunset. It's pretty accurate with a little practice.
12-07-2021, 12:06 PM
LadAhmed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
The sports question would have thrown me, but I know LIEs who are into sports. Se-HA.
As for weather phenomena, I can look at the sun and tell about how many minutes of daylight are left. It's simple. The sun moves 15 degrees per hour across the sky, which is 1/3 of the angular distance from the horizon to the point halfway to the zenith. (It's also a bit less than the angle that your splayed hand subtends at arm's length.) The season tells you the tilt of the sun's orbit and therefore the path it will take in the sky. All that's left is to imagine the path between the sun and its setting-point and divide it into 15 degree segments, and that's the hours until sunset. It's pretty accurate with a little practice.
What about just... using a watch and knowing at which time the sun will go down?
12-07-2021, 12:27 PM
crazymaisy
Who needs a watch when you can know by the light or dark what time it is, really the simplest thing. I only have an analog clock on my desktop lately because Win 11 doesn't have one on taskbar anymore.
Knowing what could be useful in the wild or an apocalypse future is gold.
12-07-2021, 12:31 PM
LadAhmed
Quote:
Originally Posted by crazymaisy
Who needs a watch when you can know by the light or dark what time it is, really the simplest thing. I only have an analog clock on my desktop lately because Win 11 doesn't have one on taskbar anymore.
Knowing what could be useful in the wild or an apocalypse future is gold.
Yeah I can do that on a regular basis, yet I find using a watch as a faster and more accurate way especially if you're indoors (and too lazy to look out the window just to see how dark it is)
12-07-2021, 04:29 PM
Adam Strange
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadAhmed
What about just... using a watch and knowing at which time the sun will go down?
Who wears a watch? I got rid of mine years ago.
12-07-2021, 04:31 PM
LadAhmed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
Who wears a watch? I got rid of mine years ago.
But you sure have a phone
12-07-2021, 04:50 PM
Adam Strange
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadAhmed
But you sure have a phone
Yes, and as @crazymaisy implied, it will stop working when the first stratospheric bomb takes out the global positioning system and the second one takes out the electrical grid and the cell towers.
12-07-2021, 04:52 PM
LadAhmed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
Yes, and as @crazymaisy implied, it will stop working when the first stratospheric bomb takes out the global positioning system and the second one takes out the electrical grid and the cell towers.
Y'all so paranoid wtf
12-07-2021, 08:49 PM
Aster
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
Who wears a watch? I got rid of mine years ago.
they are now fashion statements :p it’ll prob be considered hipster, along with typewriters
12-07-2021, 09:17 PM
Adam Strange
Quote:
Originally Posted by reverie
they are now fashion statements :p it’ll prob be considered hipster, along with typewriters
I had a thin gold watch with a leather band, but I no longer want that to be my fashion statement. No watch at all, please. Just a black T-shirt, jeans, and black leather Italian shoes. Nothing more than what I need to buy a sandwich.
I don't have a wallet, either. Just two credit cards, a driver's license, and some folding cash. No metal change. It wrecks my pockets.
12-08-2021, 01:18 AM
spacious
ESI moves the bluetooth speaker from its place on top of the refrigerator/freezer (near a corner of the kitchen), saying "And this needs to go somewhere else," thinking that this was an uncharacteristically strange spot for an LIE to place an item.
LIE: Well it should be pointing towards a corner, the sound is best that way
ESI replaces it where it was and marvels at how someone could find the time and mental space to learn such things as how to optimize acoustics when this has nothing to do with their profession or daily needs.
12-08-2021, 11:34 AM
Armitage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
Who wears a watch? I got rid of mine years ago.
I do, but purely for utility. I got a sportswatch, which combines the functions of a watch, my smartphone, and music player with monitoring my exercises. Then there is my scubadiving watch, which I wear on holidays and use at home as a clock nearby my bed, because of its handy backlight on/off button.
I also have my Grandpa's watch for his 40-year work anniversary, but I never wear it, because I don't want it to get broken, or stolen. It's ironic, because he too never wore it, because he didn't care one bit for materialism. It's an expensive silver watch with two diamonds studded into the dial. I actually care more about his initials, which he engraved on the backside with his trusty Swiss army knife. That's what makes it personal to me.
Who carries credit cards? I got rid of mine years ago, because I can pay with my watch. :P
12-09-2021, 12:57 AM
Tarnished
My LIE uncle is not a very likable person. He think about profit too much, even with his relatives. He's greedy and knows how to take advantage of someone when he has the chance.
My ESI mother doesn't like him very much. She's one of the few people who can directly confront my uncle when he's being a jerk, and my uncle seem a littlebit afraid of my mom (lol). My mom said: if you are too passive, you could end up being exploited by him.
She know how to deal with LIE, just like I know how to deal with SEE, yeah... And talking to her how she should have a LIE friend seem difficult.
12-09-2021, 12:26 PM
Armitage
There's this new student who entered my psychology faculty. After we have been talking for the past few days, I suspect him to be an ESI.
LIE parks his bicycle and sees a guy fixing his own: "Wil het lukken?"
ESI: 'Sorry, I don't speak Dutch.'
LIE: "Is it going well?"
ESI: 'I'm trying to increase the height of my saddle. My own bike is at the repair shop, so they lend me this one.'
LIE inspects the mechanism: "If you turn this lever and rotate it, the clamp around the saddle bar loosens and you'll be able to change its height."
ESI: 'Yes, but I never know in what direction I have to turn something to loosen it.'
LIE: "Righty tighty, lefty loosy."
ESI: 'Which direction is left?'
LIE motions with his hands: "Counter-clockwise." then tries rotating the lever: "Damn, this is completely stuck, they should've oiled this."
ESI applies force and it moves half a turn: 'Yup, stuck.'
LIE, impressed by the ESI's strength: "Uhu."
ESI: 'What's your name by the way?'
LIE: "Marijn, a typically Dutch name."
ESI: 'Mine's Moritz, a typically German name.'
Both: Laugh
12-12-2021, 08:57 PM
Adam Strange
I was talking to an LIE salesman yesterday. He's about thirty and I've been buying machines from him for years. He told me he eventually wants to 1. Get rich, and 2. Be his own boss.
I have no doubt he'll accomplish both things. There are only sixteen people.
Yesterday he mentioned that he wasn't married. I said, "What? You've been engaged for at least two years."
He looked at me sheepishly and said "We're just waiting until we have enough money saved."
I thought, "Uh oh. ESI-LIE Duality happens in about three to six hours of mutual exposure. Two years of being engaged does not sound good." So I asked him if he had a picture of his fiance, and he did.
She's SLI. Just like my ex-wife.
I've talked to him about Duality in the past so he knows what Duals are, and he realizes that I'm a cult fanatic, but he also knows he's in no hurry to get married and secretly wonders why. Well, he's about thirty. I didn't know jack shit about people when I was thirty. I'd had sex with two ESIs (among many others) and I really liked both pf them and there was something about both of them that made me want more of them (and more meaning not just sex), but neither of them knew calculus, and there was no way I was going to marry a woman who didn't know calculus. So, I dropped them both, moved on to more and more terrible women, until I just stopped dating for a year from the effects of dating horrible matches. And then I met my SLI ex-wife, who seemed stable and smart. And with whom I never really argued, so I thought, "Maybe I could marry her."
Anyway, I told the LIE that his GF looked a lot like my ex-wife, who is my Supervisor, and that didn't work out too well. I then showed him some pictures of some ESIs I've dated for reference, and he said, "You know, I think the woman I was dating before this one might have been my Dual. I felt really protected by her, emotionally. But after about two years together, we started to fight. And then we broke up. And I think I went the other way with this one. She's really emotionally stable and we never argue."
I'm seeing this thirty-something LIE walk down the exact same path that I walked, and if he does that, he's going to retard his goal of getting rich for a long, long time. To say nothing of what being on your Supervisor's territory for the rest of your life will do to your personal development.
There are readers of this post who are going to say "Adam, what the fuck do you think you're doing? You don't know this guy and you're messing with his life." To which I will answer, The above conversation is much condensed and I gave him many chances to change the subject and I told him at least three times that If he is happy, he should ignore my intrusive bullshit and we can just move on to other topics, but in every case, he seemed to press on. My guess is that he's not happy with an SLI fiance, and he can't figure out why he's not happy.
Because, you know, 1D Fi.
Anyway, LIEs don't talk to other LIEs the way they talk to everyone else. With other LIEs, it's "No bullshit and no filters, and let the pieces fall where they may."
So I wrote down the links to a Socionics test that he can take and can give to his fiance "just for fun" in case my VI is misfiring, and a link to Strat's description of the ESI-LIE Duality. Just so he can compare what he's got now to what he should have. And I left him with a final caution that, if he's happy right now, he should tear up that note and work on his relationship.
So... Fast forward to this morning. I was working with the ESI who is helping me remodel my house, and part of that process is to get rid of shit I don't need. We were going through boxes and boxes of books that I have in storage. The boxes are in four categories. Physics and engineering (Te), Self-help and self-care (Si-PoLR), Economics and Business (Te), and Fiction (Ni and Fi). In the Self-Help and Self-Care boxes were book after book on "How to Save this Relationship" and "How to Get Along with Your Spouse" and "How to Make a Marriage Last" and "The Dance of Anger" and "How to Fix your Marriage." I held these books up to the ESI, a woman I've known for ten years and with whom I've never had an argument and who, most importantly, despite being a lesbian, has my back, and said "I don't need these books anymore. I know how to fix my marriage; Divorce the SLI", and laughed.
I then told the ESI the above story of the LIE salesman. When I got to the part where, after two years, the LIE and the ESI started to argue, her eyes got big for a moment and then she just said, simply, "Wrong ESI."
Post Script:
That LIE's ESI might not have been the wrong ESI. I've found that ESIs are remarkably similar underneath, and it's only the Attachment issues which make them very different.
(Well, Attachment, instincts, and enneatype, but those other factors are minor compared to Attachment when it comes to making or breaking a relationship.)
It's actually more likely that the LIE was stone stupid about what he should be expecting from the woman. Maybe he was trying to get her to take calculus classes.
In my conversation over the cubic yards of books we were sorting, the ESI interior decorator asked me if I read a lot of books? I said I had read almost all of the three or four thousand books I have. I read for relaxation away from work.
She said that she'd read about three books all the way through that weren't for a school assignment.
I asked her where she got her information, and she said, "Living. My friends. The internet."
So I guess that expecting her to know calculus is out.
Well. I now realize that calculus doesn't mean shit. Not when a Dual is available.
12-14-2021, 03:45 AM
spacious
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
neither of them knew calculus, and there was no way I was going to marry a woman who didn't know calculus.
Feels proud(?) that I took Calc 1 and passed with an A- (in high school) and a B in college... The HS teacher told me I asked too many questions, lol.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
To say nothing of what being on your Supervisor's territory for the rest of your life will do to your personal development.
Yeah, finding the Ne to communicate with someone in my life whom I think is my supervisor scares the living shit out of me, so I can imagine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
It's actually more likely that the LIE was stone stupid about what he should be expecting from the woman. Maybe he was trying to get her to take calculus classes.
:/ It is interesting that the arguing didn't start until two years in... HMMM.
I hope he reports back to you with his thoughts! Cool that he is open-minded enough to take in the information you were sharing with him.
Wish we had a better description of the duality than Strat's, though. But we'll get there...
Thanks for sharing (here) and for spreading the word (out there)! Send those LIEs my way ;) (and an SLI my way to help me figure out how to communicate with IEEs. Hah. JK, first priority is much higher.)
Your ESI-Se friend seems well-balanced mentally. Doesn't seem to have the self-consciousness about her Ne PoLR that I had, for many years, in higher education. Good stuff
12-14-2021, 04:58 AM
Adam Strange
Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderwoman
Feels proud(?) that I took Calc 1 and passed with an A- (in high school) and a B in college... The HS teacher told me I asked too many questions, lol.
@wonderwoman, please bear in mind that my preference at that time for a woman who knew calculus said a lot about my insecurity, and nothing about the intelligence of my dates.
I also rejected an LSI because she just had a HS education at age 22. After we broke up, she went to college, then grad school, then became a math professor at a university. So I was basically a blind shithead. I probably still am.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderwoman
Yeah, finding the Ne to communicate with someone in my life whom I think is my supervisor scares the living shit out of me, so I can imagine.
The ESI interior decorator is living with her IEE grandmother because she doesn't want to live with her SEE father or her EIE mother, and she's been doing this all summer and she hasn't gotten upset about it yet, although she did say that her grandma spent all day sewing cat toys for her friends, and said it as if she viewed it as a fairly large waste of time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderwoman
:/ It is interesting that the arguing didn't start until two years in... HMMM.
I hope he reports back to you with his thoughts! Cool that he is open-minded enough to take in the information you were sharing with him.
In truth, it was he who thought she was a Dual. I never saw her picture. Now that I think of it, it's possible that the first GF was an LSI, since I started out with LSIs and I'd never felt so emotionally supported by anyone before them, and the arguments started after about a year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderwoman
Wish we had a better description of the duality than Strat's, though. But we'll get there...
Thanks for sharing (here) and for spreading the word (out there)! Send those LIEs my way ;) (and an SLI my way to help me figure out how to communicate with IEEs. Hah. JK, first priority is much higher.)
Your ESI-Se friend seems well-balanced mentally. Doesn't seem to have the self-consciousness about her Ne PoLR that I had, for many years, in higher education. Good stuff
My ESI friend is the most well-balanced female ESI that I know. She's extremely wise. Her therapist EIE mother said she'd make a great therapist, but she doesn't want to do that. Instead, she wants to help people who are less fortunate than she is.
I told her that I could help those people, too, but I don't want to.
She was pissed off for days about that. But hey, Duality.
12-14-2021, 05:18 AM
spacious
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
Instead, she wants to help people who are less fortunate than she is.
I told her that I could help those people, too, but I don't want to.
She was pissed off for days about that. But hey, Duality.
I was recently talking to an ILI who believes in getting away from language of categorizing groups of people into more and less fortunate, and towards language that recognizes resilience and community membership of everyone. I don't have well-developed ideas about it yet but it seems to be coming from a good place. That's the main thing I wanted to communicate for now. To be continued. :)
12-14-2021, 11:26 AM
Armitage
Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderwoman
I was recently talking to an ILI who believes in getting away from language of categorizing groups of people into more and less fortunate, and towards language that recognizes resilience and community membership of everyone. I don't have well-developed ideas about it yet but it seems to be coming from a good place. That's the main thing I wanted to communicate for now. To be continued. :)
I'd be really interested into hearing how that would be applied in the context of welfare, education, and equal opportunity programs. Usually one would say that those programs target the less fortunate or those with less Social Economical Status, but would one now instead say that they focus on people with less resilience and community membership? Or would it be used completely differently?
12-14-2021, 11:34 AM
Armitage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
I told her that I could help those people, too, but I don't want to.
She was pissed off for days about that. But hey, Duality.
Don't knock it 'til you've tried it, I believe that there are so many ways to give back to society, that there exists a way for each of us. ... And if you truly aren't into it, you can at least subtract charities from your taxes.
Perhaps Santa Dual will take you then from her naughty list this Christmas. :P
12-14-2021, 12:04 PM
Adam Strange
Quote:
Originally Posted by Armitage
Don't knock it 'til you've tried it, I believe that there are so many ways to give back to society, that there exists a way for each of us. ... And if you truly aren't into it, you can at least subtract charities from your taxes.
Perhaps Santa Dual will take you then from their naughty list for Christmas. :write:
I make automatic payments every month to three “save the earth” organizations, and I design weapons for the government (and others) which, because of their fearsome awesomeness, have made people think twice before getting into fights.
What I don’t do well is what the ESI is training to do; mitigating the effects of inequality, one person and one family at a time.
I mean, that’s like swatting individual locusts, when you should be looking for their breeding ground.
”Tax the Rich”, and “Fox News Delenda Est.”
12-14-2021, 01:33 PM
Armitage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
I make automatic payments every month to three “save the earth” organizations,
That's a good thing. :content::thumbsup:
I recall that you had a discussion with your decorator ESI-Se before about saving the Earth, and that she deemed you too much of an optimist, wasn't it? Perhaps she only recognizes concrete action ( Se ) like going demonstrating, whereas she doesn't recognize the value of donations as much, because that's a cog in the global system ( Te ) and only comes into effect in the long-term ( Ni ) of which the consequences aren't immediately visible ( Se )? You could always just spend one of your donations on some "There's no Planet B" clothing, that way you do what you normally do by donating money ( Te method for Fi goal ), but make it visible by wearing it ( Se )?
Of course this is all just conjecture from my side, but it was an interesting Socionics thought experiment to try and predict her reaction, haha.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
and I design weapons for the government (and others) which, because of their fearsome awesomeness, have made people think twice before getting into fights.
Although I'm a member of the NATO youth, I'm abivalent about the effectiveness of deterrence, especially in the modern era. There is no clear attribution for Cyber Warfare attacks, which undermines the communication component of the deterrence principle. A few years ago an important French media station was hacked and all their computers displayed ISIS flags, causing the NATO to presume that they were behind it. In the end it turned out, though, that Russian hackers had spoofed their Internet Protocol ( IP ) addresses to appear from Syria. Despite all their high-tech Airbus weaponry, the French thus retaliated against the "wrong" target. Putin had been laughing all along; divide and conquer.
Also, given all the proxy wars fought I have my doubts about if any weaponry actually makes people think twice about getting into fights, or that it just moves the battlefield to other countries' places. As the saying goes, no-one shits where they eat themselves. Otherwise, Putin would have been deterred from annexing the Crimea, Abkhazia, and South-Ossetia, and Putin and his allies would not be presently preparing to claim even more territory in Ukraine, Georgia, and Syria.
Moreover, the people in charge of starting wars aren't the ones at the frontlines themselves, and I'm not convinced that they care all that much, because as Stalin said:
"A single death is a tragedy, a million a statistic."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
What I don’t do well is what the ESI is training to do; mitigating the effects of inequality, one person and one family at a time.
Nor do you have to be good at that, because all good deeds matter, both big and small. Each person has their own way of contributing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
I mean, that’s like swatting individual locusts, when you should be looking for their breeding ground.
How could one contribute to targeting these breeding grounds?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
”Tax the Rich”, and “Fox News Delenda Est.”
I know of Tax the Rich and I know that Fox News is a politicized news channel, but I don't know what “Fox News Delenda Est.” is, however.
12-15-2021, 01:33 AM
Adam Strange
@Armitage, the breeding ground of most social problems is structured inequality. People who have money get all the power, and then they structure society to keep it that way.
If you couldn’t pass your wealth on to your undeserving family, but you still wanted to give your kids an opportunity to prosper, you would be forced to invest in a society in which they could do well. Into things like public schools, health care that doesn’t bankrupt you for one single event, the free exchange of information, etc. And with an equal-opportunity society (not an equal-outcome society), then merit would be the basis for advancement.
So, tax the rich until they have nothing to pass on, and end the propagandist mouthpiece of the ruling class, Fox News.
12-15-2021, 01:46 AM
Adam Strange
I was talking to the ESI interior designer today and I have two conclusions.
One, she is relentless in her efforts to eliminate all of her competition, even though she’s a lesbian and doesn’t want to have sex with me. This seems to be more about her feelings of being able to compete with others for my attention.
Two, she is not telling me how to live my life, but is rather asking me hard questions about what I want to do with my life. Really hard questions. She’s like a great therapist, or a mechanic who absolutely knows how the engine works.
She doesn’t know where the car is going, but she’s not letting it start until I have a destination for it.
She’s only 27 and she’s kicking my ass. She’s eliminating all my excuses for bad behavior. Christ, if I had met her when I was 27, I’d be ten times richer now and a hell of a lot happier.
I don’t think every Dual could do this for me. I get the sense that a lot of them (maybe all of them) would move me in this direction by default, but she’s particularly self-aware and isn’t allowing me any excuses for being anything other than my best. She’s taking my 4D Ne (hey, I could do this or I could do that or I could do anything at all) and is just grinding it into the dirt in favor of one clear direction.
I’m an e8w7. Normally, I don’t let anyone control me or tell me what to do. But she’s not telling me what to do. She’s just pointing out that a lot of my present actions are not ever going to pay off, despite my optimistic Ni hopes for the future. She’s an e6w7, a loyal skeptic. She’s on my side but wants to know that I have a plan that is actually going to bear fruit.
It’s kind of amazing that Socionics Duals have this kind of complementary enneatype arrangement, but I think that most Duals do.
12-15-2021, 02:14 AM
spacious
@Adam Strange, This woman really does sound awesome. I’m so happy you’re in each other’s lives! I have good feelings about your future, re. meeting an eligible Dual who’s not a lesbian XD, though she certainly seems hard to find. But I love the richness of this relationship and how present it is in your life. This friendship and how much it means to you are inspiring! It makes me think about appreciating what's right in front of me, here, now (basically gratitude). I'm also single/longtime single so have thought about this theme quite a bit. It's almost like this friendship is preparing you for a romantic relationship with a Dual who is equally healthy and wonderful as she is. It warms my heart!
By the way, how did you make her acquaintance – it’s cool you’ve known each other for 10 years. There must be a good deal of trust there
12-15-2021, 02:47 AM
Adam Strange
Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderwoman
@Adam Strange, This woman really does sound awesome. I’m so happy you’re in each other’s lives! I have good feelings about your future, re. meeting an eligible Dual who’s not a lesbian XD, though she certainly seems hard to find. But I love the richness of this relationship and how present it is in your life. This friendship and how much it means to you are inspiring! It makes me think about appreciating what's right in front of me, here, now (basically gratitude). I'm also single/longtime single so have thought about this theme quite a bit. It's almost like this friendship is preparing you for a romantic relationship with a Dual who is equally healthy and wonderful as she is. It warms my heart!
By the way, how did you make her acquaintance – it’s cool you’ve known each other for 10 years. There must be a good deal of trust there
I met her when my marriage was disintegrating. I was at a loss as to who I was, and so I started collecting art. Art that has meaning to me, because that enabled me to more clearly see who I am now by seeing what I like.
I was in the public library and there was a display of artworks by various artists, and of all the works, I liked one of them the most. I approached the librarian and asked to buy it. She said it wasn't for sale, but she could put me in touch with the artist.
The artist turned out to be this young woman at a school for gifted students in Ann Arbor, so through the library and the school, I wrote to her telling her I wanted to buy that artwork. She said it wasn't for sale, but she'd be happy to do a commissioned piece, and we should meet at a coffee shop downtown to talk about it.
The coffee shop was upscale, almost pretentious, but had good food next to a health food store, and I arrived early and got a table and waited for her.
I should say that at this point in my Socionics career, I was aware that my Duals were Fi-Se, but I had never consciously met one before, and Fi-Se with low Ni and lower Te sounds like a stripper to me. So I was still pretty ignorant of my Duals.
When the artist arrived, I took one look at her and was terrified. She was tall, athletically thin, had long blond hair and blue eyes and was wearing flip-flops, jeans that could not be legally any shorter, a thin pink band of elastic cloth around her top supported by two string straps, and was totally unlike any woman I would ever talk to.
Because I walk a fairly narrow line in my acquaintances, and because I have an unfortunate tendency to say things that turn out to be psycho-sexually inappropriate in most company, I immediately went into defense mode. Because she was so different from all the women I know how to interact with, I was fully expecting to be having a normal conversation with her, then I'd say something inadvertently that outraged her, she'd throw the coffee in my face and I'd leave that coffee shop in handcuffs.
Instead, she sat down and hung her purse on the chair back and we started to talk. What could I possibly have in common with this woman? I had no idea, but two and a half hours later, the convo had ranged from the history of art in the middle ages to the influence of architecture on political movements and the subjective experience of colors.
When she said she had another appointment, but we should talk again later about exactly what I want, she bounced up and bounced out, and I was left to integrate the experience. I gradually began to ask myself if she might be one of these women whom Socionics calls a "Dual". I mean, she strictly met all the descriptions and was still totally unlike anything that I expected.
I'd just had no experience then with a Dual. I'd read the descriptions, but the reality was completely different.
Honestly, she was so far from what I was expecting, from what I had ever expected, and yet was so easy to get along with, that I thought I'd see what the world thought of her. I found a picture of an ESI who looked similar to her and showed it to my LII sister, and gave her a description of my Duals.
My sister said, "If you bring a woman like that home with you, the family will disown you."
Lol.
Well, fuck my family.
12-15-2021, 02:49 AM
Adam Strange
The lesbian ESI interior designer’s mother is an EIE therapist. I’ve met her and while I think she’s nice, I really have no desire to interact with her. I’ve not had great luck in my relationships with EIEs. We’re both too much alike and too different at the same time.
The ESI and I were sorting through my book collection and found a book on psycho-sexual disorders. Don’t ask me why I have that book. All everyone wants to talk about are the psycho-sexual murders. But my day job is Parking Lot Attendant.
I looked at the book and said, “Discard pile.”
She read the cover and said, “Maybe my mother would like this book.”
”Then it’s yours,” I said. “Why would she want that book?”
”She’s a sex therapist.”
”What? I thought she was just a therapist.”
”No, she helps people with sex problems.”
I thought about that for a minute. “What kind of sex problems?”
She looked at me impatiently. “I don’t know. All kinds.”
”Hmmm,” I thought. I have a sex problem in that I’m not having sex with her lesbian daughter.
”Maybe I should talk to her.”
”NO!”
”No? Why not?”
The ESI was fighting down panic. Maybe she can see into me sometimes, but that works both ways.
Inside her head she was frantically reaching for a reason and found one. “Because that would be totally unethical.”
”Unethical?”
”Yes.” She was back on the smooth road. “It would be totally unethical for me to be involved with one of her clients.”
Are we “involved”, I wondered, and smiled. ESIs don’t give much away.
”I could totally recommend some very competent therapists in the area if you need one,” she said, neatly.
”No thanks. I don’t actually have any sex problems. I don’t feel any shame and I’m pretty practical about what I want.”
”Oh. OK.”
She put the book on her “Take with” stack but, really, what doesn't an EIE already know about psycho-sexual disorders?
12-15-2021, 03:57 AM
End
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
I make automatic payments every month to three “save the earth” organizations, and I design weapons for the government (and others) which, because of their fearsome awesomeness, have made people think twice before getting into fights.
What I don’t do well is what the ESI is training to do; mitigating the effects of inequality, one person and one family at a time.
I mean, that’s like swatting individual locusts, when you should be looking for their breeding ground.
”Tax the Rich”, and “Fox News Delenda Est.”
Well you get it even though you're on the "other side" as it were. Gotta burn the breeding ground. Kill the "summoner/healer" first or else you're being an idiot.
The main reason I keep harping on attachment issues (glad to see you jumping on this ultimate bandwagon of mine BTW), is because it really is how you, as an individual, can strike real and telling blows against the Lord of this world. Most every form of propaganda, manipulation, and social engineering fails right out of the gate if tried on people who have healthy attachment.
You can fix yourself and your partner, but the real blow is when you manage to raise/fix 2 or more kids, tell em' how and why you did it, and let that process flow from there. That follows an exponential growth curve. If we all did that for a few generations the Satanic PTB would be employing all their evil ways for naught for their hatred and lies would fall before the tidal wave of love and truth of a humanity raised right by loving people.
It is a popular saying among us rather hardcore Christians. "12 is all we have. 12 is all we need." If but 12 people, being literally the only people acting upon that fact up and do it? They win long term. The 12 become 24 become 48... until the only 12 left are the final servants of Satan. Ironic, given how he scoffed at the original 12 at the time :).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Armitage
I know of Tax the Rich and I know that Fox News is a politicized news channel, but I don't know what “Fox News Delenda Est.” is, however.
Cathargo Delenda Est. You didn't get the reference? Adam doesn't go as far as I would as I'd say "The entire MSM Delenda Est!" and you're damn right Fox News is included in my not inconsiderate amount of righteous indignation. I also wouldn't stop with news services. I'd include streaming services and Hollywood in its entirety. All big corps hate my guts because of my faith and what I stand/wish for thereby and boy do I wish I was engaging in hyperbole.
The great enemy hates/fears one man above all, Christ. As a follower, their bottomless ire is directed towards me as well. Fuck em'!
As for taxing the rich, I'd say do something more along the lines of allowing an individual to accumulate a set amount of resources and then just taxing the excess at 100 percent. Like, you can have 15 million dollars and spend/save it as thou would wish. Anything more than that and it gets taxed and used in the interest of the good of the nation. If you don't know about the concept of "Generational Wealth" I'd look into that. A very compelling argument can be made that explains that most all our modern-day problems are the result of the out-of-control generational wealth. That is, a few shitheads got really lucky to the point that our current wealth inequalities are handily explained by this little story I'm sure I've told before.
Everyone starts the race at the same point. However, as is always the case, some people are just better at running and that advantage compounds. Eventually, the best runners (and the families they spawn) run so good for so long they get over the horizon and out of the sight of most everyone else. Now, they weren't just good at running, they were smart too and contemplated inventions and technology as they ran the race (that has no definite end goal). Once they were sure they were far enough ahead they realized "Hey, none of the others are around to see us. If we cheat they'll never know. I got a board and some wheels. Skateboarding takes way less energy to do and gets you to the same speed as running. So let's all build skateboards and use em' to ensure we never see those other bastards again! We shall eternally be the winners of this race even if we get a bit sloppy in regard to our personal health!"
That too compounds. Skateboards become golf carts become Lamborghinis become aircraft become spacecraft. However, a curious inversion happens at the aircraft stage. Ever see the movie "Idiocracy"? Yeah, that happens to them at that point. The cheaters are eons ahead of the likes of you and me, but they're also unable to maintain the mechanisms built by their forefathers. Their forefathers built that kind of redundancy in (i.e. planned for a generation unable to really innovate or fix the complex system they created) but no genius, no matter how smart, can ultimately plan around the equivalent of the users falling below the base standard requirements for sentience (i.e. No human can make a system complex enough to control all of human civilization that could somehow be worked reliably by a Chimpanzee who suffered crippling brain trauma in infancy).
The Chimp will be able to coast along thanks to all that redundancy for a time, but their time is ultimately limited as they can't even into the Wheel let alone how a skateboard is a good idea. We are currently ruled by said Chimps and the "Great Machine" constructed by their degenerate forefathers is creaking so loudly at the seams only the well and truly deaf are failing to notice the sound. Our only goal then is to survive the collapse. For the damnable Chimps do know of that one last primal instinct. If you're going down you take as many other people that you hate as you can with them!
12-15-2021, 04:04 AM
spacious
@Adam Strange, such an epic story! (The one of how you met. I'm commenting on that one here!) I’m so glad you posted it! Wow, I think it’s so cool that you decided you wanted to purchase that first piece of art for yourself (without even knowing if it was for sale or not). And how cool of your friend that she (even 10 years ago) was confident and established enough in her artistry to allow you to commission a piece! She sounds like an Identical friend I would enjoy having. :D
And of course, fuck your family’s expectations of who you should ‘bring home’! ((That's such a serious comment though from your sister, I don't really know how to respond to the sentiment, knowing it was said a long time ago and in a particular context, too...!))
12-15-2021, 04:31 AM
Adam Strange
Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderwoman
@Adam Strange, such an epic story! (The one of how you met. I'm commenting on that one here!) I’m so glad you posted it! Wow, I think it’s so cool that you decided you wanted to purchase that first piece of art for yourself (without even knowing if it was for sale or not). And how cool of your friend that she (even 10 years ago) was confident and established enough in her artistry to allow you to commission a piece! She sounds like an Identical friend I would enjoy having. :D
And of course, fuck your family’s expectations of who you should ‘bring home’! ((That's such a serious comment though from your sister, I don't really know how to respond to the sentiment, knowing it was said a long time ago and in a particular context, too...!))
@wonderwoman, here's the thing about that story. I liked the ESI's art before I ever met her. I've told her sometimes, maybe when she is e6 doubting, that her art is an expression of who she it, as is everything that we do, and I liked it before I knew her.
Oh, and neither of my sisters has ever had what I would call a good marriage, and the LII has had several.
My family was pretty fucked up when I was growing up, and it affected all the kids. I'm still trying to ditch the bad baggage.
12-15-2021, 04:33 AM
Adam Strange
I asked the lesbian ESI/future social worker today if she knew that up until about 1966, women were not allowed to have bank accounts.
"Yes, I knew that," she replied.
"I think that's so funny!", I said.
She looked at me and narrowed her eyes. "It's all about male power and oppression."
"I don't know for sure what it's about, but it seems funny to me. I mean, did you ever see that Dave Chappelle skit? "They should never have given you **** money!" *"
Now her eyes were slits and she looked like she was going to explode.
"I love Capitalism," I said.
From between clenched teeth: "Why do you love Capitalism."
"Because Capitalism doesn't see people as human beings. It sees them as production units, and it pays them for being production units. But it turns out that being a dehumanized production unit is actually a higher status than women had in most pre-Capitalist societies, where they were valued somewhere between a dog and a cow. Around the 1960's, with nine million men in Vietnam and the need for more workers, women could get a good job and could get money, and now they have power.
That's why I love Capitalism."
Honestly, if anything, women should have more money and more power in society. The place would be better for it.
I sometimes wonder what it would be like to grow up in a society where I wasn't allowed to have a bank account. I'd honestly want to burn that place to the ground. "Take that, M******F******s!"
12-15-2021, 11:02 AM
Armitage
Quote:
Originally Posted by End
It is a popular saying among us rather hardcore Christians. "12 is all we have. 12 is all we need." If but 12 people, being literally the only people acting upon that fact up and do it? They win long term. The 12 become 24 become 48... until the only 12 left are the final servants of Satan. Ironic, given how he scoffed at the original 12 at the time :).
I believe that humanity is its own worst enemy, and I thus think that we should first focus on solving the problems that we caused before putting anymore children on the planet. Because if we do start a breeding war in no time will the Earth turn into a desert world as we exhaust its nature for our own greed. Stewardship of the Earth, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by End
Cathargo Delenda Est. You didn't get the reference?
LOL, I thought that Fox News had a new channel called "Delenda Est". I thought the reference to warfare was similar as to Alex Jones' Infowar. But now I get that Adam meant to remove the biased media!
Quote:
Originally Posted by End
All big corps hate my guts because of my faith and what I stand/wish for thereby and boy do I wish I was engaging in hyperbole.
Yes, down with the Corpos! My political activities are a way for me to unleash that frustration about a crooked system. It's also why I love reading and watching the cyberpunk genre. Have you ever played a cyberpunk roleplaying game, like Cyberpunk Red, the Sprawl, or Urban Shadows? It gives me a nice feeling of catharsis, as I can actually take down those evil Corpos, instead of merely demonstrating at the driveway of their company.
Quote:
Originally Posted by End
As for taxing the rich, I'd say do something more along the lines of allowing an individual to accumulate a set amount of resources and then just taxing the excess at 100 percent. Like, you can have 15 million dollars and spend/save it as thou would wish. Anything more than that and it gets taxed and used in the interest of the good of the nation.
A friend of mine had the same idea, I worked it out it a bit further and I actually think that an exponential tax formula would do even better. That way the Corpos cannot use loopholes as easily to stay artificially below the treshold for paying taxes. In addition, that means that you can tax them for more than 100%, because what Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, and Mark Zuckerberg possess is simply ridiculous compared to the average American without healthcare. At the same time, the tax for the disadvantaged will remain low.
Yet the real problem is not so much what system of taxation to apply, but to get it implemented across countries, because otherwise the Corpos will evade it still through tax havens like my country. Fortunately, at the G7 summit the most powerful finally agreed on a global tax minimum. Politics is the eye of the needle through which every solution has to pass.
Quote:
Originally Posted by End
If you don't know about the concept of "Generational Wealth" I'd look into that. A very compelling argument can be made that explains that most all our modern-day problems are the result of the out-of-control generational wealth. That is, a few shitheads got really lucky to the point that our current wealth inequalities are handily explained by this little story I'm sure I've told before.
That too compounds. Skateboards become golf carts become Lamborghinis become aircraft become spacecraft. However, a curious inversion happens at the aircraft stage. Ever see the movie "Idiocracy"? Yeah, that happens to them at that point. The cheaters are eons ahead of the likes of you and me, but they're also unable to maintain the mechanisms built by their forefathers. Their forefathers built that kind of redundancy in (i.e. planned for a generation unable to really innovate or fix the complex system they created) but no genius, no matter how smart, can ultimately plan around the equivalent of the users falling below the base standard requirements for sentience (i.e. No human can make a system complex enough to control all of human civilization that could somehow be worked reliably by a Chimpanzee who suffered crippling brain trauma in infancy).
I have seen Idiocracy, but the evidence actually points against it; the Flynn effect causes humanity to increase its intelligence. Better education leads to better IQ scores and the elite definitely pay for the best private education. In addition, the rich and powerful select the best partners based on their intelligence, wealth, and beauty, and they can do so, because some people's greed makes even the most vile person look attractive to them, as long as they're rich.
Quote:
Originally Posted by End
We are currently ruled by said Chimps and the "Great Machine" constructed by their degenerate forefathers is creaking so loudly at the seams only the well and truly deaf are failing to notice the sound. Our only goal then is to survive the collapse. For the damnable Chimps do know of that one last primal instinct. If you're going down you take as many other people that you hate as you can with them!
Funny, Gillian Anderson in the Netflix series "Sex Education" is also an EIE sex therapist with a son who is at the same time embarrassed about and kind of proud of her mother's job.
12-19-2021, 06:40 PM
timber
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
@Armitage, the breeding ground of most social problems is structured inequality. People who have money get all the power, and then they structure society to keep it that way.
If you couldn’t pass your wealth on to your undeserving family, but you still wanted to give your kids an opportunity to prosper, you would be forced to invest in a society in which they could do well. Into things like public schools, health care that doesn’t bankrupt you for one single event, the free exchange of information, etc. And with an equal-opportunity society (not an equal-outcome society), then merit would be the basis for advancement.
So, tax the rich until they have nothing to pass on, and end the propagandist mouthpiece of the ruling class, Fox News.
I'm fine that Fox News criticizes China so much and they also ran the Yan Report on the lab origins of covid.
Its a shame the right wing took up the banner though, as it became a politicized issue instead of a conversation on unethical viral research that should be occurring but won't be.
12-20-2021, 05:26 AM
Eliza Thomason
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
I was talking to the ESI interior designer today and I have two conclusions.
One, she is relentless in her efforts to eliminate all of her competition, even though she’s a lesbian and doesn’t want to have sex with me. This seems to be more about her feelings of being able to compete with others for my attention.
Two, she is not telling me how to live my life, but is rather asking me hard questions about what I want to do with my life. Really hard questions. She’s like a great therapist, or a mechanic who absolutely knows how the engine works.
She doesn’t know where the car is going, but she’s not letting it start until I have a destination for it.
She’s only 27 and she’s kicking my ass. She’s eliminating all my excuses for bad behavior. Christ, if I had met her when I was 27, I’d be ten times richer now and a hell of a lot happier.
I don’t think every Dual could do this for me. I get the sense that a lot of them (maybe all of them) would move me in this direction by default, but she’s particularly self-aware and isn’t allowing me any excuses for being anything other than my best. She’s taking my 4D Ne (hey, I could do this or I could do that or I could do anything at all) and is just grinding it into the dirt in favor of one clear direction.
I’m an e8w7. Normally, I don’t let anyone control me or tell me what to do. But she’s not telling me what to do. She’s just pointing out that a lot of my present actions are not ever going to pay off, despite my optimistic Ni hopes for the future. She’s an e6w7, a loyal skeptic. She’s on my side but wants to know that I have a plan that is actually going to bear fruit.
It’s kind of amazing that Socionics Duals have this kind of complementary enneatype arrangement, but I think that most Duals do.
First I want to say you wrote this on Dec. 14, 2021, which was the 222nd anniversary of George Washington's death.
222 is considered to be a very powerful message from God. According to scripture, seeing this number is symbolic of unity, love, and our relationship with God. Prophets say that this year, 2/22/2022, George Washington's birthday, will be a very significant day for our country. My prayer is that it will be so for you, because I think once you have a relationship with God, you will not only have deep, true joy and peace, but all the desires of your heart will follow. That has long been my prayer for you.
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I love this conversation you wrote here because it reminds me of my ESI Mom. She died on Valentines Day a few years ago. As her "Supervisor" I sometimes had trouble seeing her strengths, but I did (a bit grudgingly) see the value in this very quality you describe. Her frequent pressure that I have a plan for this or that was a thorn for me often. It felt like a relentless damper put on every new enthusiam I had for some new thing or direction. [And they way it worked with my parentts was that Dad would back up whatever she said, so everything with them was a solid wall of will]. But I eventually respected that quality in her.
My desire was to major in liberal arts in college. To me college was a big buffet of things to learn about. Liberal arts was the prefect place for that, but I was allowed only two years of that and then was forced to pick a "real" major that would lead to a job. If I had been allowed, I would have taken the 5 or 6 year plan, taking lots of interesting classes and graduating with a Bachelor of Miscellaneous! Being forced to choose, I chose teaching, and then the pressure was on to land a teaching job. No sooner than that the goal was met there was another goalpost! A Masters, asap, before children, in order to secure my permanent certificaion. This Mom saw as important for if I took time off to parent and needed to return to work. I was teaching an extremely full load of classes, and I very much wanted to put my foot down, and say, enough with the goals! But my mother had that non-wordy stubborness, as you sort of describe here, and on top of that, it turned out I worked for the only district in the region that would foot the bill for the Masters. So those combined circumstances made me take on the challenge, which was huge, especially because I wanted to get it done as fast as possible.
I have often been grateful that I made that goal, and credit my Mom that I did. Especially because I did take time off to parent, and I was very grateful to have that certifcation to return to my field of work when I suddenly needed to.
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12-20-2021, 10:01 AM
Armitage
The Origins of Corona?
Quote:
Originally Posted by timber
I'm fine that Fox News criticizes China so much and they also ran the Yan Report on the lab origins of covid.
Its a shame the right wing took up the banner though, as it became a politicized issue instead of a conversation on unethical viral research that should be occurring but won't be.
In Europe these discussions fortunately aren't as politicized. At first it was researched if the virus showed signs of genetic modification, which it lacked the typical human-made code chunks for, so the hypothesis was discarded. But then a scientist realized something, in pharmacological research there exists a method to make animal experiments a more accurate model for humans by modifying the animals with human DNA. This makes rats susceptible to human diseases like HIV. That way you do not have to modify the disease to fit the animal, which could change the behaviour of the disease and thus the efficacy of the tested medication.
What the scientist discovered was that you could inverse this process, instead of making the animal more susceptible to the disease, you can force evolve a disease to become virulent to other species. For instance, by gradually hybridizing bats with human DNA you can evolve diseases to become infectious to humans. Bats are the perfect breeding ground for this, because their immune system never fights any virus or bacteria directly, but only terminates infected cells to prevent the bat's body from succumbing. Certain experts believe that this method might be what enabled the creation of the SARS-Cov-2 ( Corona ) virus in the Wuhan Institute of Virology, while using the original, already highly infectious SARS virus as a starting point.
This also explains why on the entire Wuhan meat market not a single infected pangolin was found. It already is a rare occurence for a disease to mutate to infect other species, let alone to make the jump twice from bats to pangolins and from pangolins to humans. If this chance occurence actually had happened, you would have seen many infected pangolins at the market, especially since the human variant of the virus would remain infectious to the animals.
No-one outside of the Chinese Communist Party knows if the virus was developed as a bioweapon, or they simply wanted to develop medication against a potential new SARS outbreak.
The latter and more mundane explanation I deem more probable, because no bioweapon worth its money would target the enemy's elderly and frail over its working population and soldiers. Moreover, any self-respecting geneticist would ensure that the bioweapon only locks onto the enemy population and not also the own.
Either way, Chinese laboratories have been reprimanded before by World Health Organization inspectors for their lack of hygiene and safety protocols. And if I recall correctly, at least in one instance a disgruntled and underpaid laboratory assistant was found to sell former laboratory animals to red markets, such as the one in Wuhan. As Hanlon's Razor states: Don't assume malice when stupidity is an adequate explanation. At least, not the first time.
But perhaps I'm all wrong about this, because no-one knows for sure, as no Western virologist is allowed unsupervised access to the Wuhan Institute of Virology. Probably we'll thus never learn what happened.
12-20-2021, 10:09 AM
Armitage
This is a great example, @Eliza Thomason! :content::thumbsup: So everything worked out for you in the end? Do you have more examples of your Mom's ESI characteristics? Also, do you believe that your Father's type might have interacted with your Mother's to form this solid wall of will?
12-21-2021, 04:56 AM
End
Quote:
Originally Posted by Armitage
In Europe these discussions fortunately aren't as politicized. At first it was researched if the virus showed signs of genetic modification, which it lacked the typical human-made code chunks for, so the hypothesis was discarded. But then a scientist realized something, in pharmacological research there exists a method to make animal experiments a more accurate model for humans by modifying the animals with human DNA. This makes rats susceptible to human diseases like HIV. That way you do not have to modify the disease to fit the animal, which could change the behaviour of the disease and thus the efficacy of the tested medication.
What the scientist discovered was that you could inverse this process, instead of making the animal more susceptible to the disease, you can force evolve a disease to become virulent to other species. For instance, by gradually hybridizing bats with human DNA you can evolve diseases to become infectious to humans. Bats are the perfect breeding ground for this, because their immune system never fights any virus or bacteria directly, but only terminates infected cells to prevent the bat's body from succumbing. Certain experts believe that this method might be what enabled the creation of the SARS-Cov-2 ( Corona ) virus in the Wuhan Institute of Virology, while using the original, already highly infectious SARS virus as a starting point.
This also explains why on the entire Wuhan meat market not a single infected pangolin was found. It already is a rare occurence for a disease to mutate to infect other species, let alone to make the jump twice from bats to pangolins and from pangolins to humans. If this chance occurence actually had happened, you would have seen many infected pangolins at the market, especially since the human variant of the virus would remain infectious to the animals.
No-one outside of the Chinese Communist Party knows if the virus was developed as a bioweapon, or they simply wanted to develop medication against a potential new SARS outbreak.
The latter and more mundane explanation I deem more probable, because no bioweapon worth its money would target the enemy's elderly and frail over its working population and soldiers. Moreover, any self-respecting geneticist would ensure that the bioweapon only locks onto the enemy population and not also the own.
Either way, Chinese laboratories have been reprimanded before by World Health Organization inspectors for their lack of hygiene and safety protocols. And if I recall correctly, at least in one instance a disgruntled and underpaid laboratory assistant was found to sell former laboratory animals to red markets, such as the one in Wuhan. As Hanlon's Razor states: Don't assume malice when stupidity is an adequate explanation. At least, not the first time.
But perhaps I'm all wrong about this, because no-one knows for sure, as no Western virologist is allowed unsupervised access to the Wuhan Institute of Virology. Probably we'll thus never learn what happened.
Errr, dark and pessimistic ILI here. I can tell you a very compelling reason or two why you'd actually want to eliminate your own elderly in a nice and quiet like manner like this and perhaps the elderly in general (even if it's within an enemy nation).
See, China has a huge demographic problem. Decades of a One Child Policy combined with their overall Confucian value system produced 2 predictable yet ultimately deleterious results. The first is elderly care. We here in the West face the same problem from a different angle but basically aging populations are expensive and that compounds in regards to an ultimately shrinking population. Old people are pretty damn expensive to keep around and that goes double if your population is shrinking over expanding.
They ought not be and in the past they weren't really but that was before Mammon logic infected and took over the food and medical "industries" as it were. Thus "healthy" elderly people are now a rarity and now most require assisted living or other such arrangements. In my case, I am the assisted living for my... that's potentially identifying info so I won't say more. I am currently trying to fix this as there is a way but it'll take time and I damn the corporate fatcats for making them suffer so unnecessarily as I work this out! Had they ate truly right and exercised likewise decades ago they'd be just like their grandfather. Fit as a fiddle and walking about with his sword cane (that he kept mainly because it was useful in keeping the muts at bay. It even has clear teeth marks on the sheath where they tended to chomp down on it as he blocked their attacks) and nothing else. I was lucky enough to actually inherit that item and they always mentions how much I resemble him in most every way. I bet he was a fellow ILI though of the :Te: variant :).
The second one is more "meta" as it were and ties into the concept of the PTB. See, those elderly folks have living memory of different times. This is also why they're pushing the vax so hard as "elderly" at this point is, like hippies said back in their heyday, is anyone over 30. You, I, and most other Gammas here might well be within this cohort. Living memories of a time before cell phones and universal internet access. Where you were lucky to have an "OG" NES (I did/do and boy does that bring me back), "Blockbuster" was a rental place over a term, and it was not at all unusual for you go unsupervised by your parents if you were only riding a bike around the block or something like that. Hell, you remember when the "average" gas price was "$0.99" and was even less than that on a good day? I do.
If all that resonates with you on a visceral level you're a Gen-Y exemplar. Give that concept a gander. Truly an intentionally memory holed concept by said PTB.
Oh, there is a third I almost forgot to mention in regards to Confucianism and China. See, if you told the average Confucian what gender they'd prefer their only child to be they'd almost universally answer "male" and that played out rather hardcore to the point that there are literally not enough women to go around in China.
Now to be perfectly honest there is always a slight bit more women than men in the sexual market if everything is "healthy" as it were as we comprise the majority of workplace deaths given how men tend to gravitate towards dangerous things. But if you combine a one child policy with that fact and enforce it over the time period of decades? Ho boy, that's a problem as you'd get way more men than there are enough women to satisfy. That is, imagine if there are 60 men to 40 women over 60 women to 40 men. In the latter example, assuming Monogamy, 20 women get screwed over. Sucks to be them but them's the breaks. If it's 60 men to 40 women, well, that's a war. The excess men will fight and kill each other until such time they all can secure a woman for their own. Don't blame me or God for this, blame biology.
Shameless attempt at gathering data: I hear Japan is about to throw open their borders to Westerners who know how to work farmland effectively and efficiently. So long as they aren't running an obvious ploy to trick Westerners into training their replacements they may well succeed in achieving their goal of food independence. I mean, if we made a serious effort with Aquaponics (so long as everyone is OK with eating Fish as their primary protein source) we could grow enough food to feed everyone currently on the planet on the landmass occupied by Texas.
This scales pretty nicely no matter what number you'd spit at me and hence why I and those like me hold that Malthus was full of shit. Archologies are easy to set up once you've the resources and will :).
12-21-2021, 08:45 AM
Armitage
Quote:
Originally Posted by End
See, China has a huge demographic problem. Decades of a One Child Policy combined with their overall Confucian value system produced 2 predictable yet ultimately deleterious results. The first is elderly care. We here in the West face the same problem from a different angle but basically aging populations are expensive and that compounds in regards to an ultimately shrinking population. Old people are pretty damn expensive to keep around and that goes double if your population is shrinking over expanding.
Yup, China's biggest threat is not the West, but populational collapse, hence they recently abolished the one child policy completely. Yet it will not be enough, which is why I predict that they will invest in automation as much as or even more than Japan does. Also because the Chinese culture harbours an even greater disdain for foreigners than Japanese culture. In a way that had to be expected given that China has a population of 1.4 milliard self-reliant citizens and thus little need for foreign labour. Et plus, their previous isolationist policies before Deng Xiaoping rose to power still affect their culture. Moreover, it fits with their ambitions of becoming the next technological superpower. Just like "Made in Japan" once referred to cheap knock-offs of American products and "Made in Germany" to copies of British goods, so will "Made in China" in the near future turn from a warning for cheap products into a quality label. It's why the Chinese state is investing more than anyone in 5G-networking technology and even 6G already. America's Cisco Systems is rapidly losing terrain to China's HUAWEI, which is why America is putting political pressure on its allies to boycot them and has banned HUAWEI's products from the global consumer market. It has nothing to do with consumer privacy, because in Cisco's products an equal number of backdoors are discovered every year. For the Americans it's to whom the backdoors are reporting to that makes the difference. After all, who controls the technology, controls the flow of information and who controls the flow of information, controls the minds of the people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by End
In my case, I am the assisted living for my... that's potentially identifying info so I won't say more. I am currently trying to fix this as there is a way but it'll take time and I damn the corporate fatcats for making them suffer so unnecessarily as I work this out!
I'm sorry to hear that, End. It's really unfortunate that the costs of healthcare are so unevenly distributed to benefit the rich at the expense of everyone else. And that healthcare prevention is not high on the political agenda, due to Big Pharma lobbying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by End
Had they ate truly right and exercised likewise decades ago they'd be just like their grandfather.
Multiple friends are urging me too to go exercising again, because ever since I started my statistics master I sit most everyday programming behind my computer and eat something sweet whenever I solve a problem. Whereas during my psychology bachelor I used to walk every evening for an hour or two together with a friend and cycled daily for two or more hours as well and never did I have a taste for candy. It really seems that the lifestyle comes with the job ( or study ), as the couldn't be more apart.
Quote:
Originally Posted by End
Fit as a fiddle and walking about with his sword cane (that he kept mainly because it was useful in keeping the muts at bay. It even has clear teeth marks on the sheath where they tended to chomp down on it as he blocked their attacks) and nothing else. I was lucky enough to actually inherit that item and they always mentions how much I resemble him in most every way. I bet he was a fellow ILI though of the :Te: variant :).
You must have had a great relationship with your Grandpa then! :gentleman: This sounds in a way similar to the story of my ILI best friend and his grandfather.
Quote:
Originally Posted by End
The second one is more "meta" as it were and ties into the concept of the PTB. See, those elderly folks have living memory of different times. This is also why they're pushing the vax so hard as "elderly" at this point is, like hippies said back in their heyday, is anyone over 30. You, I, and most other Gammas here might well be within this cohort. Living memories of a time before cell phones and universal internet access. Where you were lucky to have an "OG" NES (I did/do and boy does that bring me back), "Blockbuster" was a rental place over a term, and it was not at all unusual for you go unsupervised by your parents if you were only riding a bike around the block or something like that. Hell, you remember when the "average" gas price was "$0.99" and was even less than that on a good day? I do.
What's PTB? Yes, the death of the elderly means the death of an era. My Grandpa passed away less than a month ago, with him so many of experiences, memories, and untold stories vanished...
I only experienced the unsupervised biking first-hand, but so does the youth of today here too, because bicycles > cars in the Netherlands. We literally have more bikes than people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by End
If all that resonates with you on a visceral level you're a Gen-Y exemplar. Give that concept a gander. Truly an intentionally memory holed concept by said PTB.
OK, Boomer. :P ( It's a joke, because you know that I appreciate you! :) )
Quote:
Originally Posted by End
See, if you told the average Confucian what gender they'd prefer their only child to be they'd almost universally answer "male" and that played out rather hardcore to the point that there are literally not enough women to go around in China.
From the analyses I read men were assigned a higher cultural value, because guys could do heavier work on their parent's land. Confucianism, on the other hand, wasn't named as a contributor to men's higher status. Once the one child policy was enforced parents started doing improvised abortions to ensure that their only child would be male, because of this higher status. Only those high enough within the party ranks and/or rich enough to pay the fines would keep their daughters and beget some sons in addition without having to worry about the law. This is how having multiple children became a status symbol in China.
Quote:
Originally Posted by End
Now to be perfectly honest there is always a slight bit more women than men in the sexual market if everything is "healthy" as it were as we comprise the majority of workplace deaths given how men tend to gravitate towards dangerous things.
True, it's why even without an one child policy more boys are born than girls, in order to offset some of the later deaths due to general male risk-seeking behaviour, as well as due to a greater risk of congenital diseases for men, because the Y-chromosome doesn't function as a backup genome like women's double X-chromosome does.
Quote:
Originally Posted by End
That is, imagine if there are 60 men to 40 women over 60 women to 40 men. In the latter example, assuming Monogamy, 20 women get screwed over. Sucks to be them but them's the breaks. If it's 60 men to 40 women, well, that's a war. The excess men will fight and kill each other until such time they all can secure a woman for their own.
Indeed, for instance Rwanda used to be one of the most dangerous countries of Africa, due to the Hutu-Tutsi civil war, but in recent years it has become one of the safest and most developed African nations, because women took control after many of the men had died fighting. I recall that at my elementary school we organized a charity action every year for a Dutch-Rwandan woman who returned to her birth country to work in the country's recovery program.
Quote:
Originally Posted by End
Shameless attempt at gathering data: I hear Japan is about to throw open their borders to Westerners who know how to work farmland effectively and efficiently. So long as they aren't running an obvious ploy to trick Westerners into training their replacements they may well succeed in achieving their goal of food independence.
Probably @AWellArmedCat can tell us more about this, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by End
I mean, if we made a serious effort with Aquaponics (so long as everyone is OK with eating Fish as their primary protein source) we could grow enough food to feed everyone currently on the planet on the landmass occupied by Texas.
Yup, as well as through sea weed and vertical farming. We're doing those things here actually, you can look it up at the website of Wageningen University. It's why the Netherlands is the food producer of the entirety of Europe and the second largest food producer of the world, just after the United States of America, even though we only have the size of Maryland.
Quote:
Originally Posted by End
This scales pretty nicely no matter what number you'd spit at me and hence why I and those like me hold that Malthus was full of shit. Archologies are easy to set up once you've the resources and will :).
Agreed, I myself believe that the stair graph respresents population growth versus resource availability better; once we have hit a limit we begin investing our time and energy in developing new technologies to more easily access previously unavailable resources. Necessity is the mother of invention, after all. Though the question is if we do so in time to mitigate the worst effects of Global Warming.
12-22-2021, 12:37 PM
Armitage
Yesterday evening I visited my neighbour for his birthday. Because of the Corona measures it was just a few of us. At this birthday visit was his Russian teacher, who I believe to be an ESI based on her stories about justice, sharing everything with those close to you, and not being afraid of standing her ground even when outnumbered. She has a degree in Russian and one in English. Her late husband was trained as a biologist. Together they ran a food transport company for three decades, of which he was at the helm and she backed him up. From her stories I think that he might have been a LIE.
Preamble
ESI: "... There I was at the Russian border, handing over the certificates to the customs officer, and he tells me that the papers are incorrect. So I call our client to ask him about it and he assures me that everything is filled in as it should. I discuss it again with the customs officer, yet he doesn't budge one inch: 'Papers are wrong. You can pass if you pay special fee and send correct papers.' Again I call my client, however, he doesn't want to pay a single penny and insists that the certificates are correct.
I then call the buyer of the meat that we're transporting, in order to inform him that we are held up at the border. He proposes to share the price of the fee between him and the seller. My client tells me that he is not going to pay for anything and that the responsibility lies upon the buyer, because this is his territory. Of course, the buyer doesn't agree with that. This back and forth continues for two days.
On the third day the client finally comes to terms with that he cannot eat his cake and have it too and tells the recipient that he is willing to take the offer of the first day. To this the recipient tells him that that offer has long since passed, as the meat has been lying in the freezer truck for three days and the quality has inevitably deteriorated. The buyer no longer wants to purchase it. It was not a loss for my transportation company, but still the haul has been made for naught, time has been wasted, and good food has become unsellable. Why are some people so ignorant? Why did the Dutch client not take his buyer's offer immediately?"
Me: 'Stubbornness; they weren't wrong, or so they thought, hence the burden shouldn't fall upon them. When that didn't work, they expected that they could still return to the initial offer, because a promise is a promise and thus what's offered cannot change, at least not in their mind. '
ESI: "What I don't understand is that the Dutch always seem to want to one-up the other party at bargains. I have been thinking for a long time about this, is this sheer arrogance?"
Me: 'Hmm, I wouldn't call it arrogance in as much as a blind faith in bureaucracy. They followed the protocol, so they believed that everything would work out for them in the end.
ESI: "That seems short-sighted."
Me: 'It is.'
ESI: "There's something else I have been wondering about; when the company had to file for bankruptcy after 30 years, none of the employees ever contacted my husband or me to ask how we were doing, with the single exception of your neighbour. He even brought us to my husband's family in Deutschland for Christmas when we had no car, nor money to travel with. [Looks at my neighbour gratefully.]
LSI neighbour: 'That's what you do for each other.'
ESI: "That's what I think too, but not everyone does so. One of our employees had worked with us since we established the company, while the shortest employee had been working with us for 5 years. We had treated them as family all those years; organizing lavish Christmas and aniversary dinners, giving them Christmas packages stocked full with quality meat and the freshest vegetables, even granting the longest employee a loan of €10.000,-. Afterwards none even gave us as much of a phonecall to see how we were doing. Previously we had five different telephones constantly ringing, now none.
We had creditors who had to be paid. I thought that in a rich country like the Netherlands there would be a good social welfare system, but nothing could be further from the truth. When my husband applied for it a pile of letters arrived asking us all kinds of questions about our possessions. My husband looked through them and quickly said: 'We're not going to do this.' In his hand he held a letter that demanded us to sell the house, the car, and even the jewellry I inherited from my mother."
Me: 'Yes, they're Scrooges like that. When my favourite cousin got cancer and could not work during her treatment they made her sell her silver flute. She was heartbroken about it, because music is her passion.'
ESI: "Exactly, but I didn't let that happen to us. Instead I called everyone, my husband said it was no use, but I did nonetheless. The employees didn't pay any of their loans back. I was devastated. The longest employee didn't even give us back a sliver of his loan.
Fortunately there also were good people. When our company was in its high tide we had also lent money to other companies when they needed it. Some of them returned the favour, and I got €15.000,- with which we could at least settle some more debts.
One thing I know for sure, though, if my husband had known how little loyalty our employees had, he would never have hired them."
It sounds to me like her LIE husband got trapted trying to impress people who didn't care about them by spending more money than they earned on stuff they didn't need, just like Stratiyevskaya warned.
12-23-2021, 03:45 AM
End
Quote:
Originally Posted by Armitage
Yesterday evening I visited my neighbour for his birthday. Because of the Corona measures it was just a few of us. At this birthday visit was his Russian teacher, who I believe to be an ESI based on her stories about justice, sharing everything with those close to you, and not being afraid of standing her ground even when outnumbered. She has a degree in Russian and one in English. Her late husband was trained as a biologist. Together they ran a food transport company for three decades, of which he was at the helm and she backed him up. From her stories I think that he might have been a LIE.
Preamble
ESI: "... There I was at the Russian border, handing over the certificates to the customs officer, and he tells me that the papers are incorrect. So I call our client to ask him about it and he assures me that everything is filled in as it should. I discuss it again with the customs officer, yet he doesn't budge one inch: 'Papers are wrong. You can pass if you pay special fee and send correct papers.' Again I call my client, however, he doesn't want to pay a single penny and insists that the certificates are correct.
I then call the buyer of the meat that we're transporting, in order to inform him that we are held up at the border. He proposes to share the price of the fee between him and the seller. My client tells me that he is not going to pay for anything and that the responsibility lies upon the buyer, because this is his territory. Of course, the buyer doesn't agree with that. This back and forth continues for two days.
On the third day the client finally comes to terms with that he cannot eat his cake and have it too and tells the recipient that he is willing to take the offer of the first day. To this the recipient tells him that that offer has long since passed, as the meat has been lying in the freezer truck for three days and the quality has inevitably deteriorated. The buyer no longer wants to purchase it. It was not a loss for my transportation company, but still the haul has been made for naught, time has been wasted, and good food has become unsellable. Why are some people so ignorant? Why did the Dutch client not take his buyer's offer immediately?"
Me: 'Stubbornness; they weren't wrong, or so they thought, hence the burden shouldn't fall upon them. When that didn't work, they expected that they could still return to the initial offer, because a promise is a promise and thus what's offered cannot change, at least not in their mind. '
ESI: "What I don't understand is that the Dutch always seem to want to one-up the other party at bargains. I have been thinking for a long time about this, is this sheer arrogance?"
Me: 'Hmm, I wouldn't call it arrogance in as much as a blind faith in bureaucracy. They followed the protocol, so they believed that everything would work out for them in the end.
ESI: "That seems short-sighted."
Me: 'It is.'
ESI: "There's something else I have been wondering about; when the company had to file for bankruptcy after 30 years, none of the employees ever contacted my husband or me to ask how we were doing, with the single exception of your neighbour. He even brought us to my husband's family in Deutschland for Christmas when we had no car, nor money to travel with. [Looks at my neighbour gratefully.]
LSI neighbour: 'That's what you do for each other.'
ESI: "That's what I think too, but not everyone does so. One of our employees had worked with us since we established the company, while the shortest employee had been working with us for 5 years. We had treated them as family all those years; organizing lavish Christmas and aniversary dinners, giving them Christmas packages stocked full with quality meat and the freshest vegetables, even granting the longest employee a loan of €10.000,-. Afterwards none even gave us as much of a phonecall to see how we were doing. Previously we had five different telephones constantly ringing, now none.
We had creditors who had to be paid. I thought that in a rich country like the Netherlands there would be a good social welfare system, but nothing could be further from the truth. When my husband applied for it a pile of letters arrived asking us all kinds of questions about our possessions. My husband looked through them and quickly said: 'We're not going to do this.' In his hand he held a letter that demanded us to sell the house, the car, and even the jewellry I inherited from my mother."
Me: 'Yes, they're Scrooges like that. When my favourite cousin got cancer and could not work during her treatment they made her sell her silver flute. She was heartbroken about it, because music is her passion.'
ESI: "Exactly, but I didn't let that happen to us. Instead I called everyone, my husband said it was no use, but I did nonetheless. The employees didn't pay any of their loans back. I was devastated. The longest employee didn't even give us back a sliver of his loan.
Fortunately there also were good people. When our company was in its high tide we had also lent money to other companies when they needed it. Some of them returned the favour, and I got €15.000,- with which we could at least settle some more debts.
One thing I know for sure, though, if my husband had known how little loyalty our employees had, he would never have hired them."
It sounds to me like her LIE husband got trapted trying to impress people who didn't care about them by spending more money than they earned on stuff they didn't need, just like Stratiyevskaya warned.
When you say "Me" are you referring to yourself? I think I heard that Stratiyevskaya got burned rather hard in a romantic relationship with a LIE (whom I can almost guarantee you had deep attachment issues) and thus developed a deep-seated enmity towards them as a result. Of course that particular LIE started spending money like an unrestrained and broken SEE who somehow got their hands on a "Black Card" in an attempt to impress people and did everything I'd tell you broken people do regardless of type!
I digress. Though @Adam Strange and I agree that one does not fuck with the equivalent of the IRS in any way on this front I'd actually have risked it in this form. Silver flutes are easy enough to acquire and I'd have pulled a switcheroo. Totally sold "my" (quote unquote) silver flute. Done deal. Gibs me dat now?
Usually/on its face a bad idea I'll admit but bureaucrats truly are the lowliest of lifeforms who are almost universally crippled by an absolute need to abide by :Ti: logic without the IQ necessary to realize how their "perfect" system can be exploited or evaded by others and how to compensate for that. They only really need me to sell some form of silver flute in this case. They didn't tell me anything else really. I, thus, just need a receipt that says one silver flute was sold to someone else and that I sold it to them for the amount they believe it's worth roundabouts. Unless you're plagued by a desperate glowie eager to suck Satan's cock and swallow that thick brimstone flavored molten tar jizzim with glee within your most inner circle that'll work pretty damn certainly. The "fake" will get sold for the requisite amount and it will appease the PTB enough for them to grant you/them their dark blessing.
You ultimately retain full possession of that silver flute of immense sentimental value by sacrificing a flute that meant nothing to you and likely was actually worth less than the one you acquired and sacrificed in its place. Furthermore, you pulled it off thanks to how bureaucrats are stupid fools who overvalue :Ti: and are perfect examples of evolutionary dead ends thereby :muaha:!
12-23-2021, 04:28 AM
Adam Strange
Quote:
Originally Posted by Armitage
Yesterday evening I visited my neighbour for his birthday. Because of the Corona measures it was just a few of us. At this birthday visit was his Russian teacher, who I believe to be an ESI based on her stories about justice, sharing everything with those close to you, and not being afraid of standing her ground even when outnumbered. She has a degree in Russian and one in English. Her late husband was trained as a biologist. Together they ran a food transport company for three decades, of which he was at the helm and she backed him up. From her stories I think that he might have been a LIE.
Preamble
ESI: "... There I was at the Russian border, handing over the certificates to the customs officer, and he tells me that the papers are incorrect. So I call our client to ask him about it and he assures me that everything is filled in as it should. I discuss it again with the customs officer, yet he doesn't budge one inch: 'Papers are wrong. You can pass if you pay special fee and send correct papers.' Again I call my client, however, he doesn't want to pay a single penny and insists that the certificates are correct.
I then call the buyer of the meat that we're transporting, in order to inform him that we are held up at the border. He proposes to share the price of the fee between him and the seller. My client tells me that he is not going to pay for anything and that the responsibility lies upon the buyer, because this is his territory. Of course, the buyer doesn't agree with that. This back and forth continues for two days.
On the third day the client finally comes to terms with that he cannot eat his cake and have it too and tells the recipient that he is willing to take the offer of the first day. To this the recipient tells him that that offer has long since passed, as the meat has been lying in the freezer truck for three days and the quality has inevitably deteriorated. The buyer no longer wants to purchase it. It was not a loss for my transportation company, but still the haul has been made for naught, time has been wasted, and good food has become unsellable. Why are some people so ignorant? Why did the Dutch client not take his buyer's offer immediately?"
Me: 'Stubbornness; they weren't wrong, or so they thought, hence the burden shouldn't fall upon them. When that didn't work, they expected that they could still return to the initial offer, because a promise is a promise and thus what's offered cannot change, at least not in their mind. '
ESI: "What I don't understand is that the Dutch always seem to want to one-up the other party at bargains. I have been thinking for a long time about this, is this sheer arrogance?"
Me: 'Hmm, I wouldn't call it arrogance in as much as a blind faith in bureaucracy. They followed the protocol, so they believed that everything would work out for them in the end.
ESI: "That seems short-sighted."
Me: 'It is.'
ESI: "There's something else I have been wondering about; when the company had to file for bankruptcy after 30 years, none of the employees ever contacted my husband or me to ask how we were doing, with the single exception of your neighbour. He even brought us to my husband's family in Deutschland for Christmas when we had no car, nor money to travel with. [Looks at my neighbour gratefully.]
LSI neighbour: 'That's what you do for each other.'
ESI: "That's what I think too, but not everyone does so. One of our employees had worked with us since we established the company, while the shortest employee had been working with us for 5 years. We had treated them as family all those years; organizing lavish Christmas and aniversary dinners, giving them Christmas packages stocked full with quality meat and the freshest vegetables, even granting the longest employee a loan of €10.000,-. Afterwards none even gave us as much of a phonecall to see how we were doing. Previously we had five different telephones constantly ringing, now none.
We had creditors who had to be paid. I thought that in a rich country like the Netherlands there would be a good social welfare system, but nothing could be further from the truth. When my husband applied for it a pile of letters arrived asking us all kinds of questions about our possessions. My husband looked through them and quickly said: 'We're not going to do this.' In his hand he held a letter that demanded us to sell the house, the car, and even the jewellry I inherited from my mother."
Me: 'Yes, they're Scrooges like that. When my favourite cousin got cancer and could not work during her treatment they made her sell her silver flute. She was heartbroken about it, because music is her passion.'
ESI: "Exactly, but I didn't let that happen to us. Instead I called everyone, my husband said it was no use, but I did nonetheless. The employees didn't pay any of their loans back. I was devastated. The longest employee didn't even give us back a sliver of his loan.
Fortunately there also were good people. When our company was in its high tide we had also lent money to other companies when they needed it. Some of them returned the favour, and I got €15.000,- with which we could at least settle some more debts.
One thing I know for sure, though, if my husband had known how little loyalty our employees had, he would never have hired them."
It sounds to me like her LIE husband got trapted trying to impress people who didn't care about them by spending more money than they earned on stuff they didn't need, just like Stratiyevskaya warned.
First of all, I think it's a huge mistake to think of employees as family. If they were family, you wouldn't have to pay them money.
Second, when the company filed for bankruptcy, I assume that all the employees lost their jobs. In situations like that, former employees have their own problems with meeting their bills.
Third, loaning money to employees and expecting them to pay you back is a bad bet. You can loan money to them if you wish, but don't expect to be paid back. If they do pay you back, well, it's Christmas. Don't loan money. That's what banks are for. If a bank won't lend them money and you choose to act as their banker, you might find out why the bank is solvent and you are not.
When you think of your employees as family, and you close the doors and break up the family, you can't expect the employees to think of you as anything other than bad parents who lost the house and sent the kids to an orphanage to fend for themselves.
I haven't dealt with crooked customs agents, although I've been in some countries where the law was the point of a gun. I think, in situations like that, you can stand on principle if you insist, but you are going to be the only one in the transaction doing that, and whoever has the bigger guns usually wins.
Cut your losses. Always. And try not to lose your life. You can always get more money.
12-23-2021, 09:08 AM
Armitage
Good morning @End, I'm indeed referring with "me" to myself, because if I had used "LIE" it might have thrown confusion with her late husband.
In the end my Aunt and Uncle "bought" the silver flute from my Cousin for a symbolic price. The tax agency stipulates that one has to sell all their belongings in order to apply for social welfare, but they never went to dictate the price.
In the case of bureaucrats, these are mostly people just wanting to uphold their own little family. Instead of getting a kick out of being evil, most of them do their job, but very mediocrely just to get paid. It's yet another example of Hanlon's Razor; there exist both good civil servants and evil bureaucrats, but most of them are single-minded drones without a life purpose besides continuing their mundane existence. I pity them.
They do not think about the fairness of the system. Even when they contribute to something so appalling as the Dutch childwelfare benefit scandal, they will have to feel bad, but are too scared about losing their petty job to take it up against the system. "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing."
12-23-2021, 09:25 AM
Armitage
You're totally right, @Adam Strange, lending money is a risky business, if one doesn't know the history of the borrower well. And even more so in the case of lending large sums of money. That's why I didn't lend any money to the money ESI-Se I dated, because I knew that there was no way that he could pay it back; he literally wanted to borrow money from me to pay back the money he borrowed from his best friend. Unwittingly he started his very own Ponzi Pyramid scheme and it was inevitable that it would collapse, yet he was too busy bandaging the short-term problems to see this in his chase of moving to Paris. If I had continued dating the guy I probably would have ended up broke like the Russian teacher, so the relationship was doomed to fail either way. And then there also was the language barrier on top of it all. ... It sure wasn't the best of circumstances to date, but the heart knows no logic. I'm still a tad sad whenever I think of him.
However, I now have a date with the bicycle guy from my psychology study, as he turned out to be gay. With him I can laugh easily, he hasn't asked me for any money, and he gives me advice on sports and I him on how to efficiently pass his psychology and statistics courses. He'll be back after Christmas from visiting his family in Deutschland. I look forward to seeing him again, let's just hope that by that time the COVID-lockdown has been lifted a bit.
12-23-2021, 01:16 PM
End
Quote:
Originally Posted by Armitage
Good morning @End, I'm indeed referring with "me" to myself, because if I had used "LIE" it might have thrown confusion with her late husband.
In the end my Aunt and Uncle "bought" the silver flute from my Cousin for a symbolic price. The tax agency stipulates that one has to sell all their belongings in order to apply for social welfare, but they never went to dictate the price.
In the case of bureaucrats, these are mostly people just wanting to uphold their own little family. Instead of getting a kick out of being evil, most of them do their job, but very mediocrely just to get paid. It's yet another example of Hanlon's Razor; there exist both good civil servants and evil bureaucrats, but most of them are single-minded drones without a life purpose besides continuing their mundane existence. I pity them.
They do not think about the fairness of the system. Even when they contribute to something so appalling as the Dutch childwelfare benefit scandal, they will have to feel bad, but are too scared about losing their petty job to take it up against the system. "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing."
I didn't mention that one but that's the other big loophole they tend to forget about. It's a similar trick people here in the US use. For example, if you "give" someone something like a car it counts as "income" for the person you gave it too so far as the IRS is concerned and it gets logged as income at the "blue book" value of the car. That means you actually fuck over your friend or family if you "give" them the car for free as their income shoots up by 20 something grand and kicks them up into the next highest tax bracket. Instead, you sell it to them for the ripe and round sum of 1$. That way they only gotta pay the sales tax of 5-10% (depending on the state) on a single dollar and hell, even a totally broke person can pick up a buck by scanning the sidewalks and parking lots for change.
I likewise agree with your viewpoint on bureaucrats. Pitiable creatures who basically are the embodiment of IRL NPCs. Might be my :Fi: kicking in but I still can't help but look upon the likes of them with disdain. That quote at the end is probably the reason. They don't just "do nothing" ya see, they push the paperwork and actively manage the logistics that enable the evil. If only they would, once they realized evil was being committed, engaged in the practice of Malicious Compliance. That's the big Achilles Heel of most any vast bureaucratic network. Once the peons and low-level paper pushers (who can instruct the possibly ignorant peons on how to do this) start doing that the machine grinds to a halt and there ain't much of anything the upper management can do about it. Well, they can, but believe you me writing orders for every low-level paper pusher like they are a "Literal Genie" or a dumbass robot is going to drive most people, even evil sociopaths, absolutely insane.
Sadly, such thinking requires one have a purpose in life beyond mere existence and, like you said, they don't. Pure frustration on my part. I may value my own self-preservation but mere self-preservation only for its own sake? How does one live like that?
12-23-2021, 01:32 PM
Armitage
Indeed, the people in that one show in which Oprah Winfrey gave everyone a car were actually worse off in the end, due to this. Not only did they have to sell the car to pay their heightened taxes, but the IRS now also started taking a bigger share from what income they earned. Oprah meant well, but she clearly is no accountant.
Yup, just look up Milgram's experiment and see for yourself how compliant most people are.
I neither could imagine a life without a bigger purpose, yet most people are perfectly content doing the same routine over and over again ad infinitum. It's because they take joy from their daily habits, instead of the realization of greater ambitions like we do.
12-24-2021, 02:58 AM
Kalinoche buenanoche
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
First of all, I think it's a huge mistake to think of employees as family. If they were family, you wouldn't have to pay them money.
why not
12-24-2021, 03:28 AM
Adam Strange
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalinoche buenanoche
why not
Because they'd work for trading favors, and if there are non-equal trades, then the difference is subsumed into the support for the other's genetic success, which is your own success, in a way.
12-24-2021, 06:07 AM
End
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalinoche buenanoche
why not
@Adam Strange has already laid out one angle and I'll lay out another. The concepts of filial duty and how they are absolute. You "owe" your children your best (especially if you're the literal genetic father). You "owe" them your full and undivided attention if they ever call for it within reason (as you do your lover/their mother if you are the male). Your Father was a sack of shit? I can tell you why he was and why, unless your most earnest pleas for bonding and reconciliation were answered with blunt refusal and/or demonic hatred, you still owe him your earnest attempt to love and save him no matter how badly he hurt you. We can inverse the genders and still arrive at the same place.
Filial duty is a most grave and serious matter. You do not say that some other person is "like family" lightly. For the bonds of blood and spirituality are the most grave and serious of matters. Again, the concept of "family" is not a thing to ever be thrown about in jest or taken lightly. Your "family" consists of the people you are literally willing to die slowly for. Are you truly willing to endure the equivalent of Christ's passion for them? Would you trade your life in that way for theirs? If yes than I can understand your glib response. If no than try to understand why us Gamma's got so worked up over that blatantly ignorant turn of phrase. Why not? WHY NOT!? You have no idea how :Fi: works for us it would seem...
I am essentially a faulty AI that somehow attained a soul. I believe all ILI's that manage to fix their issues resonate with that sentiment somehow. It's a compelling narrative if nothing else and I would like to hear what "narrative" most strongly resonates with all the other types. If nothing else it may well explain the relations each one has with the others in a way they interact. It's an interesting line of inquiry if nothing else.
12-24-2021, 08:11 AM
Armitage
Indeed, with all the people I know and through all these years there are in total three non-biologically related people who I see as part of my family, it's very exclusive. I don't use the term lightheartedly, because for the people who I see as my family and those who I deem my closest friends I would do so much for when they need me. It's a tremendously strong and deep feeling.
My former neighbours have seen me grow up since I was born and have played an active role in my upbringing. With them I played games ( and learned to accept defeat ), I developed my love for dogs based on all the good memories I have with their dog, Morris, who has been there the larger part of my life, and the many nature trips we went on have taught me a lot about recognizing birds and plants. I'm always suprised when I point out a common kestrel versus a peregrine falcon to someone and they are awed by my knowledge about birds, because they don't know the difference. And then I think fondly of all those field trips with my neighbours.
In a weird way I have a memento of it; when I was so little that I could not even talk nor walk my neighbours already took me out on these trips. On one of these trips I was lying in the arms of my neighbour, while she was birdwatching. Then suddenly Morris saw a group of geese after which he started running and barking. In her surprise my neighbour turned around and lost grip of me, after which I fell out of her arms. Unfortunately for me, the bird that she was spotting was sitting next to barbed wire and I fell right into it. So just above my left eye I have this scar, it's barely visible after all these years, but if the barbed wire had hit me not even half a centimeter lower, I would have been blind on that side. It's a blessing in disguise that that didn't happen, especially since I'm left-handed and thus my left eye likewise provides me my primary vision.
My neighbour is still heartbroken that it ever happened. The story came up when I asked why I have this scar, because I was too young to remember any of it at all, which is a good thing.
Anyway, even though I'm no longer living in the same village as them, I still visit them every month, even now when my statistics master takes so much time. Next week I'll visit them again to wish them happy holidays in person.
The one other person I'd call family is my current neighbour, the one from the previous story. We have been living diagonally of each other for 11 years now and my father and I help him out with technology, and he helps us with carpenting. Every summer he gives us cucumbers and cabbages from his greenhouse, and we give him tomatoes and zucchinis from ours. We know that we can count on him and he on us, and we regularly visit each other for coffee or tea. Each winter, just before the prices skyrocket for Christmas, he visits the wholesale store and buys a large and expensive piece of quality meat to give to us as a "Thank you for all the help and being there for me." gift, which we then make our Christmas dinner from. With Old Year's Eve we give him in turn a share of oliebollen, apple flaps, and Belgium waffles that we bake to celebrate the holiday with.
Often he has said how we're family to him and for us the feeling is absolutely mutual.
12-27-2021, 07:23 AM
Nightmare
Tbh, most of my venting also consists of teaching him how to respond to my venting...lmao. "Quit debating it, I know it doesn't make logical sense, just let me emotionally vomit saying things I don't mean coz I'm just upset and then hug me"
12-27-2021, 07:26 AM
Nightmare
Me: *does basically anything*
Him: "So cute"
12-27-2021, 07:51 AM
Nightmare
Quote:
Originally Posted by Armitage
In Europe these discussions fortunately aren't as politicized.
Translation: in EU people aren't as bat shit crazy. (Seriously, there is something up with USA. I legitimately suspect that the food issues are making people more aggressive and etc. That is part of why I'm abandoning ship and immigrating to EU.)
Quote:
At first it was researched if the virus showed signs of genetic modification, which it lacked the typical human-made code chunks for, so the hypothesis was discarded. But then a scientist realized something, in pharmacological research there exists a method to make animal experiments a more accurate model for humans by modifying the animals with human DNA. This makes rats susceptible to human diseases like HIV. That way you do not have to modify the disease to fit the animal, which could change the behaviour of the disease and thus the efficacy of the tested medication.
What the scientist discovered was that you could inverse this process, instead of making the animal more susceptible to the disease, you can force evolve a disease to become virulent to other species. For instance, by gradually hybridizing bats with human DNA you can evolve diseases to become infectious to humans.
Somehow, this is really creepy to me.
Quote:
Don't assume malice when stupidity is an adequate explanation. At least, not the first time.
Lol, it's China...don't put it past them for it to be a combination of both. Probably just more world domination schemes. (I'm not completely serious, don't mistake me for a conspiracy theorist rn lol)
12-27-2021, 10:37 AM
Armitage
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuroplasticity
Translation: in EU people aren't as bat shit crazy. (Seriously, there is something up with USA. I legitimately suspect that the food issues are making people more aggressive and etc. That is part of why I'm abandoning ship and immigrating to EU.)
Aggressive AND armed. I feel a lot safer here in Europe where we are about to implement a sugar tax, where when you mention "arms" people refer to their limbs, and the police complains about being underequipped and understaffed to catch criminals, instead of shooting bullets at black people. Well, the being underequipped and understaffed issue might not be so great, because drug gangs still exist for the drugs that we haven't yet legalized and until the plan to collectivize the brothels is passed, human trafficking from Africa also remains a problem. But school shootings fortunately aren't a thing here, I cannot remember a single one having happened.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuroplasticity
Somehow, this is really creepy to me.
That's not because of you, that's because it's actually kinda creepy.
Disclaimer: Shameless self-promotion ahead.
But all animal experiments are creepy in a way, that's way I'm proud of the Bioscience Park cell-on-a-chip program, where they grow human cell cultures from a simple scratch. They use these cell cultures as alternative for animal experiments to see how medication and cosmetics potentially affect different organs. Donating blood is generally more invasive than donating a couple of cells, unless they are stem cells. To remidy the problem of stem cell donation Leiden University is further developing techniques to revert any cell, even skin cells, back into stem cells. This will also greatly reduce the waiting lists for organ transplantation!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuroplasticity
Lol, it's China...don't put it past them for it to be a combination of both. Probably just more world domination schemes. (I'm not completely serious, don't mistake me for a conspiracy theorist rn lol)
I cannot afford being undiplomatic in public, because as a programmer there is no greater mistake to make than to presume privacy on the Internet. We have a joke in the programmer community: "There are only two types of people, those who have been hacked... And those who have yet to find out." The German chancellor definitely belonged to the latter group, when she previously thought that her American allies wouldn't possibly spy on her private phone. Attachment 17608 :lol:
12-27-2021, 10:59 AM
Armitage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuroplasticity
Tbh, most of my venting also consists of teaching him how to respond to my venting...lmao. "Quit debating it, I know it doesn't make logical sense, just let me emotionally vomit saying things I don't mean coz I'm just upset and then hug me"
So is this the ideal way of consoling an upset ESI or are there also other best practices? Because my normal inclination would be to either come up with a solution for said problem or to explain how the problem isn't actually a problem at all. Also, we definitely do love debating anything and everything.
Yup, ESIs do a lot of moral mentoring, because LIEs like myself can be rather clueless at times.
12-30-2021, 04:43 PM
Nightmare
Quote:
Originally Posted by Armitage
So is this the ideal way of consoling an upset ESI or are there also other best practices? Because my normal inclination would be to either come up with a solution for said problem or to explain how the problem isn't actually a problem at all. Also, we definitely do love debating anything and everything.
Yup, ESIs do a lot of moral mentoring, because LIEs like myself can be rather clueless at times.
I'd say this has more to do with emotional intelligence than morality. It's not immoral to debate someone when they are trying to vent, but there are some good odds that it's only going to further frustrate/upset them. They are trying to get something out of their system ("emotionally vomit," if you will,) and before they can do that, you are basically countering it all. In some cases (such as mine), they may have already tried several solutions, and when you offer them, they have to go through the process of explaining everything to you (AKA justifying their venting and frustrations to you). As you can likely imagine, this becomes a matter of having to "prove" that your venting is valid, rather than simply getting something off of your chest and purging the emotions from your system, and feeling like the other person understands and empathizes with your emotional experience (which doesn't necessarily mean agreeing with it).
It's always good to have some clarity in mind before offering solutions. Determine whether it's mere ventilation or the person is in distress and seeking solutions. Personally, I say things I know I don't really mean when I am in “venting only” mode, which is part of why that distinction is necessary. I actually very rarely vent, but when I do, all I'm wanting is to release the feelings from my system. I am self-sufficient in resolving the problems from there about 99% of the time. The last thing I need is for someone to try to stop me because I "shouldn't" feel how I feel. It crosses the line into "unethical" once it becomes emotionally invalidating.
EDIT:
For me, at least, venting is an opportunity to let go of self-restraint so that I can go back into self-restraint with a firmer grip on it while resolving issues or recovering from things that cannot be resolved.
EDIT II:
IDK, men in general are often stunted in the emotional department due to society pressuring them in various ways. It's why if things ever go south with my hubby I'll never be with another man. I'd still be bi, obviously, but I just would refuse to be with anyone who is not a woman - and not trans woman raised on society's values for men, but someone who grew up culturally treated as female. More emotionally open, etc.
12-30-2021, 07:29 PM
Armitage
Thanks for the advice, @Neuroplasticity. Yes, when someone comes to me clearly with the intention to vent, I always listen first. I think it's a pretty universal need to have some time to vent and feel listened to regarding family, university, or the office for instance. And especially now during the holiday season, when all of a sudden you have to organize festivities with family members who might hold very different opinions. It takes quite a bit of give-and-take from all parties involved to make that a success.
01-02-2022, 11:07 AM
Nightmare
Quote:
Originally Posted by Armitage
Thanks for the advice, @Neuroplasticity. Yes, when someone comes to me clearly with the intention to vent, I always listen first.
Quote:
I think it's a pretty universal need to have some time to vent and feel listened to regarding family, university, or the office for instance.
You'd think so, but science is beginning to prove otherwise. It can sometimes merely cement emotionally biased (and thus inaccurate) views instead. I think it's just a matter of being self-aware enough to recognize that your emotions are clouding your judgment and you don't mean what you're saying, so I don't really buy that completely. I think this study is missing the "middle ground" of not taking your own views too seriously when you're emotional. Still, though, according to this study, less need for venting is a sign of higher emotional intelligence...supposedly. I find it questionable, as I said.
Just about every successful self-disciplined person seems to share a pattern: they all have some way to just let loose and be unfiltered somehow. The successful dieter has a time in which they splurge, and so forth. I think that's necessary: if you're going to be controlled, you've got to be able to release it someplace, somehow. That's what venting lets me do, but...my boyfriend can't seem to discern whether I'm saying things from an emotional place, or not. He either doesn't take what I say seriously enough (and is thus dismissive when I'm sincere), or he takes it too seriously (and is therefore getting upset with me and arguing when I say things that are kind of ridiculous during vents—not about him, but about some other thing, he's just upset because I'm "overreacting" or something along those lines), because he doesn't realize it's just an emotional purge and I don't mean all of what I'm saying. Soooooo...my venting can actually transform into an argument with him, lol.
"my boyfriend can't seem to discern whether I'm saying things from an emotional place, or not."
Meanwhile, I recently had to point out that he was angry even though in his mind, he felt numb. He had to reflect awhile before realizing he was, in fact, angry. He thought I was misreading him initially. I had to insist and make points, etc. I'm better at detecting his emotions than he is sometimes. He isn't very good at detecting mine—but he is clever as fuck when it comes to putting two and two together with deduction. He knows me well and catches onto plenty about me that nobody else notices or recognizes. It's sort of funny, in a way...at times, emotionally, I feel unseen and unheard. Yet, overall, when viewing the big picture, I've never felt so seen or heard by anyone before.
A good practice with venting is always to just listen and empathize first, and wait until they've finished to begin offering solutions (not to be mistaken with just waiting for your turn to speak instead of truly hearing them). Most people won't even have enough self-awareness to be able to say, "I don't actually mean the things I'm about to say, but..." the way I've started doing for my LIE. Depending on variables, it might be best to ask first, "Can I offer a suggestion?" That can prompt them to clarify their intentions for you, like, "no, I know what to do, I'm just ranting," or go ahead and agree to/accept, which can actually make them more receptive anyway. That is, if you say it right...and not in a way that just makes them brace themselves for an attack. Tone and phrasing is important.
Other times, asking is not so necessary; if anything, a bit of forcefulness with it is necessary...but not through debate, but rather, through empathizing and relating. Letting them know you understand their frustrations, and you hear them, and echoing back some things that convey an understanding of things from their point of view, before gently suggesting. If you can relate firsthand, or communicate your own experiences with solving something similar, people lean more toward receptiveness. You don't need to hold their mouths open and shove the medicine in (debate), you can just show them it's harmless by exposing how you drank it yourself before. It helps people to lower their guard and be less on the defensive. "You need to do this" VS "You know, I went through X before, and I felt really similarly to what you're describing. What helped me was Y and Z." (You don't want to say it in a way that comes off as, "I know exactly what your experience was like for you" or something, so phrasing is important there.) It offers solutions from a stance of camaraderie as opposed to instruction (and said instruction can be interpreted in a number of ways...bossiness/pushiness, condescending/patronizing, [insert Ne list of other possibilities I'm not bothering with here], it really depends on the other variables that are present).
01-06-2022, 10:51 PM
Nightmare
ESI
IDK, tbh this may just pertain to my logical reasoning process
not being objective enough or something
LIE
hey
ESI
hoi
LIE
what do you mean
not being objective
ESI
hmm
im trying to understand why i am defensive
but it's hard without having a pattern in front of me
LIE
i mean... its possible you just dont trust external information untill its evaluated through by yourself. But then you dont see yourself as defensive or struggle to see external perceptives, how you affect others with your behavior or how you come off
hopefully
ill help you there
in time
ESI
yeah...
thanks
i think thats accurate though
LIE i mean its my job to help you with your polr
01-08-2022, 04:53 AM
Adam Strange
LIE, after volunteering to fix an ESI’s snowblower: “I can’t fix this thing in your garage. I need a heated workshop and my fingers are freezing in this ten-degree weather. I’ll take this to my shop and I’ll fix it there and I’ll bring it back on Sunday.”
ESI, watching the LIE load the snowblower into his car: “You’re not stealing my snowblower, are you?”
01-08-2022, 01:29 PM
Armitage
@Adam Strange, ESIs tend to be suspicious of people, aren't they, due to their strong Fi, yet inexperienced Ne?
01-11-2022, 08:24 PM
Adam Strange
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissDucki
All the protection…all the Sp…gimmeeee
Last summer, I was working with a 27-yo ESI-Se and I was dating an older ESI-Fi RN. I was pretty much in hog heaven, or as close to that as an LIE can be, and I found it interesting to compare the two subtypes. They are very different in many respects, but one thing they have in common is that they are both Sp/sx.
I, myself, am sx/so, and to encounter someone whose main program is to protect themselves by having stuff is pretty different. I mean, having stuff (money, houses, cars, clothes, etc.) isn't my main focus, but I could see that, for both of these women, their worlds centered around having material resources.
Hey, my world centers on having intimate relationships. No one's perfect.
Anyway, the ESI-Fi RN had first been married to an SEE who spent all their money on drugs and on having a good time. She left him because there was no money left for their kid. Her second husband was an LSI union auto-worker who made a lot of money, but he took almost all of it with him when he left her. So she was pretty devastated, and she was spending all her time working to get some sense of security, instead of going out with me a lot.
Anyway, I was talking to the ESI-Fi RN about the ESI-Se interior decorator. I told the RN that I was paying the ESI-Se to redecorate my house, and was paying her well, because she was going to need money to get her degree in social work and I didn't think she'd make much money in that profession, so I was paying her enough to live on and to start a significant investment for her future.
I told the ESI-Fi RN, "The interior decorator's dad is the same personality type as your first husband." (They are both SEEs.)
She sat there and thought about that for a minute. "Imagine having your first husband as your father," I laughed.
"Oh, no," she exclaimed.
"Yes, she needs money, because her family doesn't have any."
"Her grandmother left her $10,000 in her will, but she was only 17 when her grandmother passed away, and that inheritance was given to her parents for safe-keeping because she was underage. So all this time, she thought she had $10,000 sitting in a bank account, waiting for her to pick up when she needed it."
The ESI-Se RN got an alarmed look on her face. "Don't tell me. They spent her money?"
"What do you think?"
Lol. Yep. Every cent.
Anyway, I paid the ESI interior decorator enough this last summer to make it back up, with ten years of interest. She got more value from it than I would have.
01-13-2022, 02:51 PM
Nightmare
I recently had this conversation with my LIE...it caught me off guard, I blushed and felt tsunere
ESI
ik hes not a psychopath
but tbh
...
itd be better for him if he was, almost, in my book
at least then he would have a genetic disorder as an excuse
but no, instead, it's purely his own moral character
LIE
You are so cute
ESI
lmaoo
wat
suddenly blushing and being tsundere
thats not supposed to be cute
wtf
LIE
Its cute to see you triggered over something so trivial like a tv show
ESI
lmao
why
LIE
You have a pure heart
You can't take corruption or darkness, things that a lot of people just accept as flaws
ESI
it pisses me off lol
LIE
Your ideals shine against accepting them
Dont change that
ESI
....ive tried
i couldnt
LIE
Ill tolerate
Your complaining
Against characters I like
As long as you Keep shining
Like this
Being better than others... Incorruptible
Pure light
ESI *strikes a high horse "holier than thou" justice warrior pose....whatever the hell that looks like*
blech lol
idk...
i dont like
feeling placed in such a ... title
i dont see myself as better than anyone
LIE
I wanna kiss you to shut you up rn
.....................I just realized, I think he was fucking with me in the last part, when he said "better than others..." Lmao, why am I so serious...
01-14-2022, 05:19 AM
Nightmare
Btw, if anyone is curious...I was referring to Ragnar from Vikings. I can't stand him. What do you guys type him as? My partner seems to think he is LIE and Lagertha is ESI. I agree with Lagertha, but I'm not sure what to think about Ragnar. (Is "douchebag" a personality type option I can select?)
01-14-2022, 12:59 PM
Adam Strange
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuroplasticity
Btw, if anyone is curious...I was referring to Ragnar from Vikings. I can't stand him. What do you guys type him as? My partner seems to think he is LIE and Lagertha is ESI. I agree with Lagertha, but I'm not sure what to think about Ragnar. (Is "douchebag" a personality type option I can select?)
My impression of Ragnar is that he is a clear SLE, but that’s from Google images and one brief scene I watched.
Remember, LIE and SLE have the same dimensional Fi and Fe.
01-14-2022, 03:44 PM
Adam Strange
Reposting here, because.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreymagine
I only vaguely remember it, but I had a dream in which I married my crush and then he turned into a literal monster hell-bent on eliminating all of humanity, so I had to kill my former-husband-now-monster-enemy to save the world.
If I believed that dreams had deeper meaning (which I don't), I'd say I unconsciously believe that—upon growing closer to my crush—I would discover he's a "monster" and a menace to society.
So, does this explain why every Fi-dom ESI I've ever dated will go out with me once and then starts to postpone further dates?
It happened again yesterday with the latest ESI I met. Dinner at a nice restaurant (bill was $106 for two, or nice enough), and then "I'm pretty busy with work. I guess I filled my time with work and other things, like volunteering, etc. I guess I didn't want to have any free time for relationship distraction. Don't take this personally."
WTF? Of course it's personal. It doesn't get any more personal than this.
"Don't take anything personally about relationship distractions. Everyone has their personal focus and timeline."
Evidently, her timeline is forever while she waits for evidence that I'm a "monster" and a menace to society.
TBH, 2D Ni without an emergency to galvanize them is a pain in the ass.
01-14-2022, 10:59 PM
Nightmare
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
My impression of Ragnar is that he is a clear SLE, but that’s from Google images and one brief scene I watched.
Remember, LIE and SLE have the same dimensional Fi and Fe.
Did you really just use that logic as a basis for your impression?
01-15-2022, 01:46 AM
Adam Strange
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuroplasticity
Did you really just use that logic as a basis for your impression?
Yes. I'm a guy who does Ready-Fire-Aim all the time, so I tend to make stupid mistakes based on too-little data. Sometimes, this enables LIEs to win, but often we just look like we have no idea what we are doing. (Until you look at the record.)
The scene I was referring to was a scene from Vikings that someone on this forum posted here, in which some woman, I assume she's Ragnar's wife, leaves the village (maybe with her son?) in a cart pulled by a horse, and this Viking guy goes after her and starts crying in front of her, saying he loves her, and she tells him that she's tired of his disrespect so she's done with him.
Since I don't watch TV and I certainly don't know who these characters are, I just assumed that this scene was from some great story arc of love between the main characters and that those were the characters to whom you referred. Maybe I was completely wrong there, but if that guy was Ragnar, then I could see an SLE acting that way, possibly, if he realized that he was in danger of losing someone very near to him.
Having 1D Fi means that our feelings are very low-res. Black, or white, not many shades of gray.
If I'm wrong about my assumptions, please ignore.
01-15-2022, 03:56 AM
spacious
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
Reposting here, because.
So, does this explain why every Fi-dom ESI I've ever dated will go out with me once and then starts to postpone further dates?
It happened again yesterday with the latest ESI I met. Dinner at a nice restaurant (bill was $106 for two, or nice enough), and then "I'm pretty busy with work. I guess I filled my time with work and other things, like volunteering, etc. I guess I didn't want to have any free time for relationship distraction. Don't take this personally."
WTF? Of course it's personal. It doesn't get any more personal than this.
"Don't take anything personally about relationship distractions. Everyone has their personal focus and timeline."
Evidently, her timeline is forever while she waits for evidence that I'm a "monster" and a menace to society.
Ugh, groan. I'm sorry -- how frustrating, and I'm frustrated with my identical for that weird message...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
TBH, 2D Ni without an emergency to galvanize [them/us/myself] is a pain in the ass.
I *completely* agree, lol.
01-18-2022, 04:03 AM
spacious
not a conversation, just sharing something: LIE dad and LIE brother are doing a 2-day avalanche preparedness training course in the mountainous west which is so very, very them of an activity. i find the knowledge-gathering adorable, honestly, and am glad to not participate at that high of a level of physical risk-taking (the opportunities that the course could open up for them in terrain, that is), too. they both snowboard recreationally.
01-18-2022, 04:15 PM
Nightmare
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
Yes. I'm a guy who does Ready-Fire-Aim all the time, so I tend to make stupid mistakes based on too-little data. Sometimes, this enables LIEs to win, but often we just look like we have no idea what we are doing. (Until you look at the record.)
The scene I was referring to was a scene from Vikings that someone on this forum posted here, in which some woman, I assume she's Ragnar's wife, leaves the village (maybe with her son?) in a cart pulled by a horse, and this Viking guy goes after her and starts crying in front of her, saying he loves her, and she tells him that she's tired of his disrespect so she's done with him.
Since I don't watch TV and I certainly don't know who these characters are, I just assumed that this scene was from some great story arc of love between the main characters and that those were the characters to whom you referred. Maybe I was completely wrong there, but if that guy was Ragnar, then I could see an SLE acting that way, possibly, if he realized that he was in danger of losing someone very near to him.
Having 1D Fi means that our feelings are very low-res. Black, or white, not many shades of gray.
If I'm wrong about my assumptions, please ignore.
Sorry, I was in a shitty mood that day and was too impatient. It's been lingering on my conscience ever since, and I feel bad. My emotional state blinded my judgment a bit, I didn't realize I was being moody til hindsight.
01-18-2022, 05:18 PM
Armitage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
Evidently, her timeline is forever while she waits for evidence that I'm a "monster" and a menace to society.
TBH, 2D Ni without an emergency to galvanize them is a pain in the ass.
Yes, and couple that with Ne-polr and Se-creative, so they begin prodding you like some sort of laboratory animal until you bark. Immediately they interpret this as the ultimate proof that you must be a monster and thus see their worldview confirmed. They then do their infamous vanishing act, never to be seen again.
Not so fun fact, only a couple of years ago dogs who were suspected to be aggressive were put in cages and prodded with sticks until they would bite. If they did so, they would be killed immediately, because they were deemed a danger to society.
01-18-2022, 05:25 PM
Nightmare
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
Reposting here, because.
So, does this explain why every Fi-dom ESI I've ever dated will go out with me once and then starts to postpone further dates?
It happened again yesterday with the latest ESI I met. Dinner at a nice restaurant (bill was $106 for two, or nice enough), and then "I'm pretty busy with work. I guess I filled my time with work and other things, like volunteering, etc. I guess I didn't want to have any free time for relationship distraction. Don't take this personally."
WTF? Of course it's personal. It doesn't get any more personal than this.
"Don't take anything personally about relationship distractions. Everyone has their personal focus and timeline."
Evidently, her timeline is forever while she waits for evidence that I'm a "monster" and a menace to society.
TBH, 2D Ni without an emergency to galvanize them is a pain in the ass.
Why do you think she thinks you're a monster/menace?
01-18-2022, 06:32 PM
Adam Strange
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuroplasticity
Why do you think she thinks you're a monster/menace?
I don't think she thinks I'm a monster/menace. I think she's AFRAID I MIGHT BE a monster/menace.
What I've seen of ESIs is that they have a really hard time predicting the future (Low Ni), or extrapolating present events into any of the possible futures (Ne-PoLR). This means that they seem to rely almost entirely on past performance because, to them, the future is entirely unknowable.
If you can't pick up three hints from a chaotic environment and use them to predict where everyone will be in a year, you have to make your judgements on the basis of past histories. ESIs remember everything because, if they forget something, THAT ONE THING could be their undoing.
So, she doesn't know me and she can't predict very well what I'll do. She's therefore waiting, waiting, waiting and gathering more and more information to see if I kick dogs or am mean to little children. Until then (and that time when she feels safe is probably Never), she's looking for evidence of me being a monster in hiding.
01-19-2022, 09:39 AM
Nightmare
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
I don't think she thinks I'm a monster/menace. I think she's AFRAID I MIGHT BE a monster/menace.
What I've seen of ESIs is that they have a really hard time predicting the future (Low Ni), or extrapolating present events into any of the possible futures (Ne-PoLR). This means that they seem to rely almost entirely on past performance because, to them, the future is entirely unknowable.
If you can't pick up three hints from a chaotic environment and use them to predict where everyone will be in a year, you have to make your judgements on the basis of past histories. ESIs remember everything because, if they forget something, THAT ONE THING could be their undoing.
So, she doesn't know me and she can't predict very well what I'll do. She's therefore waiting, waiting, waiting and gathering more and more information to see if I kick dogs or am mean to little children. Until then (and that time when she feels safe is probably Never), she's looking for evidence of me being a monster in hiding.
Mm. Ehh, I personally don't relate to this much. I recall everything simply because...well, I have a good memory. I also especially recall things that emotionally impact me, because...well, it was impactful, therefore it stuck with me vividly. If something felt threatening, upsetting, etc. it's very personal to me, and I recall the way I felt. It's like...if a bee stings you, lol...you're going to remember "be careful with bees." I think it's merely part of natural survival mechanisms.
I'm constantly extrapolating, this was always one of my natural strengths. I've always called it math with human behaviors simply because it really is like seeing a formula: A + B = you're going to come out with C. I'm not always right, but more often than not, I am. I talk about that a little HERE. While terrible with numbers and traditional math, I've found that once numbers are changed out with humans, behaviors, the psyche/general inner workings of mankind, and even animals, I'm suddenly excellent with mathematics style "logic." Identifying the next [behavior instead of number] in a pattern sequence, finding the missing [motive/behavior instead of number value] in an equation such as 76 + a + 16 = 154, except, instead of numbers, it'd be some equation of words, actions, choices, feelings, etc...so that I wind up identifying the unspoken variables...which results in situations such as mediating between others, like, "uhh, what they're actually trying to say is..." because I know the person and understand them well enough to do that. Extrapolation is a large part of that. I make predictions such as "So-and-so is going to end up distancing/drifting off, I think, based on demonstrated (words/behaviors) x, y, z." What I don't do, is place much TRUST in that, as I know that it's uncertain and the variables are able to alter the present trajectory things are on. But yeah, humans/relationships are extremely predictable to me. All of this is also relevant to how I figure things out that people don't expect me to, such as, having a crush that would be the very last person you'd probably expect them to. Those moments are always hilarious. Them: "I have something to tell you." Me: "Oh, you have a crush on so-and-so?" Them: "HOW THE FUCK DID YOU KNOW?" Lmaoo. Other ways it factors in, "Yeah, you're approaching this situation all wrong...you're wanting y, but your actions aren't those that'll lead you to y, these will lead you to z, because a+b without c = z, not y. If you want y, you have to do x rather than b, because blah blah."
I prefer to call it seeing the trajectory someone is on, though, not extrapolation. The difference is that extrapolation entails assuming that an existing pattern is going to continue in the same pattern in the future. Trajectory, on the other hand, entails using *currently present* factors in order to predict where that combination of (traits, behaviors, choices, etc) will ultimately take you...AKA what is the outcome of the present variables combined? This is a more accurate predictive method, as it is better attuned to changes that do occur within the patterns. Don't get me wrong, though......when there's a sudden change in someone's patterns, I notice. Big time. And I will also push for answers. That's probably annoying to some people, but I don't particularly care, because it has made alarms sound in my mind. "I see this change, what does it mean? What's going on?" Sometimes I can figure it out, though. If I know the person on a personal enough level.
So, with all of that said...I'm a complete skeptic that those pertain to "bad N," or if so, I'm unconvinced that 1D N is really as terrible as you're describing it. Maybe you're underestimating it a bit. I will say, though...outside of human/relationship dynamics, I can't do this well whatsoever. It's always more of a personal psychological assessment kind of skill. Business trends, stocks, etc....LOOOOOOOL uhhhh....*points out a distraction, makes an excuse, and walks away*
Anyway, I was wondering, since...honestly, to me it's quite clear that you're a decent person, and it was easy for me to tell that from quite early on. I wondered if it might be that your socialization style/methods are sending messages you don't mean to give, rather than her thinking something may be wrong with your character.
EDIT:
Or, perhaps...since you mentioned having difficulties with understanding boundaries before, you are talking about some things that maybe shouldn't be talked about so early on? Something like that?
01-19-2022, 10:02 AM
Nightmare
I used them interchangeably above, but that was a mistake.
Extrapolation: "The hospital cafeteria always serves soup on Fridays, so on Friday, they'll probably serve soup."
Trajectory: "The ingredients here are crushed tomatoes, tomato paste, onion, garlic, kale, chicken stock, cream, salt, and red pepper...this is going to be a soup."
The better you know someone personally, the more accurate you can be. Especially when you can use both extrapolation and trajectory combined. "These are your past patterns, these are your current [variables], this is where you're headed."
It's pretty short term, though...very much based on past/present, with insights into short-term future outcomes. Nothing like, "in 5 years from now..." it's...more like some vague sense of time (I actually don't ever put a solid time frame on it or even think about the time at all, and would probably be entirely wrong if I tried to), but it's generally something that occurs within the next few weeks/months of when I've called it.
01-19-2022, 10:32 AM
Armitage
If I understand you correctly, following someone's trajectory sounds more like deduction à la Sherlock Holmes, while extrapolating is more ( Ni ) style pattern recognition and prediction, like connecting the dots? To me the kitchen examples you provide sound more like the difference between propositional logic ( Ti ) versus deduction ( Te ), however.
01-20-2022, 01:37 AM
spacious
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
What I've seen of ESIs is that they have a really hard time predicting the future (Low Ni), or extrapolating present events into any of the possible futures (Ne-PoLR). This means that they seem to rely almost entirely on past performance because, to them, the future is entirely unknowable.
Literally what i've been going through this month in navigating the next, new, different stage of my program in school. EII friend - "and the thing about being a student is that you're in a perpetual state of transition." but this stage REALLY IS new, and the only 'model' i've had for it is how my ILI friend experienced it. but going through it without dominant 4D Fi and complicated-ass feelings that can temptingly direct you entirely is very different, so this model has been of limited utility. 💪
01-20-2022, 08:40 AM
Nightmare
Quote:
Originally Posted by Armitage
If I understand you correctly, following someone's trajectory sounds more like deduction à la Sherlock Holmes, while extrapolating is more ( Ni ) style pattern recognition and prediction, like connecting the dots? To me the kitchen examples you provide sound more like the difference between propositional logic ( Ti ) versus deduction ( Te ), however.
I think everyone uses extrapolation and deduction to an extent. I think the difference comes in with one's focal point, though. That was Jung's entire definition of Feeling vs Thinking. People conflate feelings in the everyday sense of the word with Jungian Feeling, but Jung adamantly stressed that Feeling was a rational function just as much as Thinking is. The difference between Thinking and Feeling, according to Jung, was simply that Thinking prioritizes factual and impersonal factors, while Feeling prioritizes the personal and "the needs of the people." Honestly, if going by nothing but that, I'd sometimes type as a Logical type due to being abusively conditioned to prioritize the impersonal throughout the first 24 years of my life (so up until 6 years ago, although the conditioning stuck until about 2 years ago, with some of it still being worked past). Due to my unique background, I'm probably more balanced between both, as I do believe I started off as being ESI. Ever since I was little, I have always been more human/relationship-centric. I think becoming more T or Logic type was something I did to adapt to my environment, where F things were harshly punished and T things were "the only right way" to be.
Anyway, rabbit trail aside, the point I'm making is that F is not emotions, T is not thinking, and both types do process things rationally. Ts just prioritize facts over the emotional effects, while Fs are more inclined to take what would be seen as a compassion-based or personal approach. In other words...because all of this revolves around human emotions and the personal realm as a strong point of focus, while the impersonal, etc. are disproportionately out of focus (applying this same kind of reasoning to those makes me lost), this would all be feeling related rather than thinking related. It is the rational exploration of the world of emotional nuance, personal behaviors, relationship dynamics, and so forth.
Let's put it this way...Socionics talks about Ethical types offering duals/others assistance in navigating psychological distance, etc. If F was purely emotional, with no rationality, how in the hell would they be navigating those kinds of relationship dynamics?
01-24-2022, 04:29 AM
spacious
Wonder if my Gamma crew can give me pointers on how to give feedback to an ILI whom I worked with last semester. (I helped him, as a teaching assistant, run a class. He's an assistant professor.) He said to us, let's do a course debrief so we can generate ideas and improve it for the future. I asked if we can meet 1:1 rather than in the group so that I can share my thoughts without seeking validation from the other TAs. He is down for it, but I don't want to come down too hard and break his Fi or break his heart. (And I can be harsh -- I'm aware of that, and don't want to over-correct his ethics)
he's super smart and pretty self-aware but I do want to describe some things that i felt could be done better. Some of which stem from how he "suck[s] at delegating" which he said himself. I had to do significantly more work than another TA* (and two of us really had to do more than him) b/c we only divided things up in this ad hoc way and the ILI waited until last minute to make calls so was desperate to find any solution and then put it off his plate cos he's already strapped for time working for tenure and being an involved dad.
(he's already a bit aware of the inequality and did what he could to level it but it was continuing on and with no great solution... And it was significant and really stressful for me. Affected the time I have available for research which is like "the most impt thing" in this program, which he gets. and he's said b4 "you can tell me if it's too much" but it's not exactly easy to actually tell someone that when youre all just trying to stay above water AND they have power and authority over you.)
I don't really know any SEEs well at all :/ so I dont have a great intuition for how I could lead more with Se and put the Fi stuff more in the background. Let me know if you guys have thoughts, I have a day and a half until the meeting (it's just a 30 min one...) and i'm planning my strategy. Thanks
EDIT: PS He calls me "the detail-oriented one" and appreciates me detail-saving him b/c he focuses on the Ni content of the class (which is admittedly awesome, and I'm going to emphasize/reiterate that -- he already knows I was impressed) and lets all these details frickin hang in the air for a 150 student class. Which is way too stressful for my Te seeking and Ne polr so the students were asking questions to all of us online and I would reply lol which was a ton of labor aah.
I guess we have a good vibe overall but sometimes I had to play nice a little bit and hide my true feelings. i've given him a LOT of compliments before like he can be really funny with his humor. And he's super articulate i'll be like i love how you put [X] in the lecture and he's like aw thanks! you guys dont have to validate me on how lecture went but i very much welcome it!
and once i mentioned therapy (in context of scheduling) and then he then alluded to having a therapist himself haha. So I felt like I was giving some Fi that he liked, and Se/Si with attention to detail.
I do know an SEE who seemed like she loved TAing for him but i also heard she also spent way more than the supposed hourly range per week, just like i did. But one of the main issues I have with ILIs as supervisors is that I can't get my work done as quickly as it seems SEEs can, I work more slowly than they do. (I work pretty slowly, for sure)
So yeah, I couldn't half-ass grading 283 short essay responses in a 4 day window at the end of the semester. It took a lot out of me
total vent sesh here... yeah. I have a LOT of ILIs in my life. There seem to be a lot here too! Appreciate any help, thank you :))))
01-24-2022, 05:08 AM
Adam Strange
Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderwoman
Wonder if my Gamma crew can give me pointers on how to give feedback to an ILI whom I worked with last semester. (I helped him, as a teaching assistant, run a class. He's an assistant professor.) He said to us, let's do a course debrief so we can generate ideas and improve it for the future. I asked if we can meet 1:1 rather than in the group so that I can share my thoughts without seeking validation from the other TAs. He is down for it, but I don't want to come down too hard and break his Fi or break his heart. (And I can be harsh -- I'm aware of that, and don't want to over-correct his ethics)
he's super smart and pretty self-aware but I do want to describe some things that i felt could be done better. Some of which stem from how he "suck[s] at delegating" which he said himself. I had to do significantly more work than another TA* (and two of us really had to do more than him) b/c we only divided things up in this ad hoc way and the ILI waited until last minute to make calls so was desperate to find any solution and then put it off his plate cos he's already strapped for time working for tenure and being an involved dad.
(he's already a bit aware of the inequality and did what he could to level it but it was continuing on and with no great solution... And it was significant and really stressful for me. Affected the time I have available for research which is like "the most impt thing" in this program, which he gets. and he's said b4 "you can tell me if it's too much" but it's not exactly easy to actually tell someone that when youre all just trying to stay above water AND they have power and authority over you.)
I don't really know any SEEs well at all :/ so I dont have a great intuition for how I could lead more with Se and put the Fi stuff more in the background. Let me know if you guys have thoughts, I have a day and a half until the meeting (it's just a 30 min one...) and i'm planning my strategy. Thanks
EDIT: PS He calls me "the detail-oriented one" and appreciates me detail-saving him b/c he focuses on the Ni content of the class (which is admittedly awesome, and I'm going to emphasize/reiterate that -- he already knows I was impressed) and lets all these details frickin hang in the air for a 150 student class. Which is way too stressful for my Te seeking and Ne polr so the students were asking questions to all of us online and I would reply lol which was a ton of labor aah.
I guess we have a good vibe overall but sometimes I had to play nice a little bit and hide my true feelings. i've given him a LOT of compliments before like he can be really funny with his humor. And he's super articulate i'll be like i love how you put [X] in the lecture and he's like aw thanks! you guys dont have to validate me on how lecture went but i very much welcome it!
and once i mentioned therapy (in context of scheduling) and then he then alluded to having a therapist himself haha. So I felt like I was giving some Fi that he liked, and Se/Si with attention to detail.
I do know an SEE who seemed like she loved TAing for him but i also heard she also spent way more than the supposed hourly range per week, just like i did. But one of the main issues I have with ILIs as supervisors is that I can't get my work done as quickly as it seems SEEs can, I work more slowly than they do. (I work pretty slowly, for sure)
So yeah, I couldn't half-ass grading 283 short essay responses in a 4 day window at the end of the semester. It took a lot out of me
total vent sesh here... yeah. I have a LOT of ILIs in my life. There seem to be a lot here too! Appreciate any help, thank you :))))
@wonderwoman, if it were me in that situation, I’d state as succinctly as possible just the bare facts of what needs to be improved in the course, and then step away from the bus. Just walk away.
He’s not going to be able to “hear” most of your criticisms and he’s certainly not going to be able to change how he acts.
His best bet will be to, yes, find an amenable SEE who can help him with the parts that he sucks at.
I have a lot of ILI friends and I work with some ILIs. I have never been able to get them to change their approach to their work. I’ve stopped trying. My complaint is that they deep-dive into a subject and over-emphasize parts which don’t matter because they missed the parts which do matter.
When they make mistakes (as everyone does), they don’t try to change their approach; but rather they try to reframe the problem so their same approach would have worked, if the sky were green and we lived solely on musical tones.
ILIs can be incredibly smart and they have superior Ni predictive powers, although they are not as infallible as they would like to imagine. However, they can really miss social cues (they don’t trust other people, hence their problems with delegating) and they are not that practical, so if I were you, I’d try to point him towards a smart, compliant SEE who can run interference for him and can work with him without him concluding that they are stupid.
Sorry if my advice isn’t helpful, but I don’t think there is much help that can be had here.
Oh, and one more thing.
Don’t try to be an SEE. That j/p gulf is much too wide to effectively cross.
01-24-2022, 05:25 AM
Adam Strange
As for ILIs and SEEs working fast, yes, they can seem to work fast.
I’m in a business where details matter and you can’t fake stuff, because you can’t fix mistakes when the mistakes are in orbit.
So I gave the job of designing a lens mount to an ILI. He finished it in 1/5 the time that I expected.
In the design review, he presented it as being done. It was a kinematic design and had tip-tilt adjustments, but no X-Y adjustments.
”Where are the X-Y adjustments?”, I asked.
”Oh, I can add those in five minutes.”
No, god couldn’t add those in five minutes.
I looked closer at the design. He had copied a mount for a 5 mm lens and had just scaled it up to a 100 mm lens. They are completely different animals.
He was fast because he was making his parts out of popsicle sticks and hot melt glue, so to speak.
He’s made designs before which no machine shop will bid on, because they can’t be made in the real, Se world.
So don’t beat yourself up for moving carefully and more slowly.
01-24-2022, 05:31 AM
spacious
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
@wonderwoman, if it were me in that situation, I’d state as succinctly as possible just the bare facts of what needs to be improved in the course, and then step away from the bus. Just walk away.
He’s not going to be able to “hear” most of your criticisms and he’s certainly not going to be able to change how he acts.
His best bet will be to, yes, find an amenable SEE who can help him with the parts that he sucks at.
I have a lot of ILI friends and I work with some ILIs. I have never been able to get them to change their approach to their work. I’ve stopped trying. My complaint is that they deep-dive into a subject and over-emphasize parts which don’t matter because they missed the parts which do matter.
When they make mistakes (as everyone does), they don’t try to change their approach; but rather they try to reframe the problem so their same approach would have worked, if the sky were green and we lived solely on musical tones.
ILIs can be incredibly smart and they have superior Ni predictive powers, although they are not as infallible as they would like to imagine. However, they can really miss social cues and they are not that practical, so if I were you, I’d try to point him towards a smart, compliant SEE who can run interference for him and can work with him without him concluding that they are stupid.
Sorry if my advice isn’t helpful, but I don’t think there is much help that can be had here.
Oh, and one more thing.
Don’t try to be an SEE. That j/p gulf is much too wide to effectively cross.
@Adam Strange THANK YOU!!! :D It actually helps a lot to hear this, b/c i feel like i can let go of some of my rage lol and my full desire to be really honest w him, cos i also agree (as my 'gut' or w/e was telling me) that probably not much is gonna change. He did ASK for feedback though, so i feel like there's some room to be honest, but I'm going to frame it much differently, having talked about it here and heard your advice. The "oh but this would have worked if," that's totally his energy. Used to drive me crazy haha; you can't Ni out of everything...
Like Adam said, simply cut to the chase with the bad news. It's a general rule that bad news should be introduced quickly, and he already expects feedback, so you don't have to beat around the bush. Since he's also already somewhat aware of his poor delegation practices, you don't have to sugarcoat them. Especially since he's an ILI and this is work-related you can be honest. It's not like you're judging him on his athleticism or parenting, because those topics would have been sensitive, but in the work environment, especially academia, ILIs are confident. I do recommend you to provide some positives afterwards, as is another good practice for giving any bad news. Essentially, just follow the order of your post here, or write it down as a mnemonic even.
Viel Erfolg!
Armitage
01-24-2022, 06:34 AM
Tarnished
Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderwoman
Wonder if my Gamma crew can give me pointers on how to give feedback to an ILI whom I worked with last semester. (I helped him, as a teaching assistant, run a class. He's an assistant professor.) He said to us, let's do a course debrief so we can generate ideas and improve it for the future. I asked if we can meet 1:1 rather than in the group so that I can share my thoughts without seeking validation from the other TAs. He is down for it, but I don't want to come down too hard and break his Fi or break his heart. (And I can be harsh -- I'm aware of that, and don't want to over-correct his ethics)
he's super smart and pretty self-aware but I do want to describe some things that i felt could be done better. Some of which stem from how he "suck[s] at delegating" which he said himself. I had to do significantly more work than another TA* (and two of us really had to do more than him) b/c we only divided things up in this ad hoc way and the ILI waited until last minute to make calls so was desperate to find any solution and then put it off his plate cos he's already strapped for time working for tenure and being an involved dad.
(he's already a bit aware of the inequality and did what he could to level it but it was continuing on and with no great solution... And it was significant and really stressful for me. Affected the time I have available for research which is like "the most impt thing" in this program, which he gets. and he's said b4 "you can tell me if it's too much" but it's not exactly easy to actually tell someone that when youre all just trying to stay above water AND they have power and authority over you.)
I don't really know any SEEs well at all :/ so I dont have a great intuition for how I could lead more with Se and put the Fi stuff more in the background. Let me know if you guys have thoughts, I have a day and a half until the meeting (it's just a 30 min one...) and i'm planning my strategy. Thanks
EDIT: PS He calls me "the detail-oriented one" and appreciates me detail-saving him b/c he focuses on the Ni content of the class (which is admittedly awesome, and I'm going to emphasize/reiterate that -- he already knows I was impressed) and lets all these details frickin hang in the air for a 150 student class. Which is way too stressful for my Te seeking and Ne polr so the students were asking questions to all of us online and I would reply lol which was a ton of labor aah.
I guess we have a good vibe overall but sometimes I had to play nice a little bit and hide my true feelings. i've given him a LOT of compliments before like he can be really funny with his humor. And he's super articulate i'll be like i love how you put [X] in the lecture and he's like aw thanks! you guys dont have to validate me on how lecture went but i very much welcome it!
and once i mentioned therapy (in context of scheduling) and then he then alluded to having a therapist himself haha. So I felt like I was giving some Fi that he liked, and Se/Si with attention to detail.
I do know an SEE who seemed like she loved TAing for him but i also heard she also spent way more than the supposed hourly range per week, just like i did. But one of the main issues I have with ILIs as supervisors is that I can't get my work done as quickly as it seems SEEs can, I work more slowly than they do. (I work pretty slowly, for sure)
So yeah, I couldn't half-ass grading 283 short essay responses in a 4 day window at the end of the semester. It took a lot out of me
total vent sesh here... yeah. I have a LOT of ILIs in my life. There seem to be a lot here too! Appreciate any help, thank you :))))
Just straight up tell him what to do (in detail). Like Armitage said, as long as it's work relate and not personal, most ILI can take it whithout too much hard feeling. (They agree with it or not is a different story though). Can use a little more Se to push him to actually do shit.
