yeah, that is sad. poor thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
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yeah, that is sad. poor thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
Quote:
Originally Posted by PinKDiGiT18
Yep. ESIs get into mediocre marriages and hold the course. If they are on the market after 40, it's usually because their husband either left them or died.
I'm redecorating my house and I'm using an ESI-Se to help set the taste of the place. I can do the structure, but I need help with the appearance of things, and that's what she does very well. She moves furniture around and throws stuff out if it isn't useful any more. We're not at the stage yet where we're buying. She wants everything out first.
One thing I absolutely hate doing is paperwork. As a consequence, I have boxes and boxes of financial records sitting around, unorganized except roughly by year. The ESI wants to get rid of them, and I'm fine with that, as long as I don't need something for a future duel with the IRS. The ESI said, "I can't decide what to keep and what to throw out. Only you can do that."
"Right," I said, despondently. I'm not looking forward to spending time sorting through old papers when I could be making new money.
"Do I have to stand over you to get you motivated?", she asked.
"You know," I said, poking her, "I belong to a personality forum, and there are descriptions written about the two of us together where you are in a dominatrix costume standing over me with a whip."
She laughed. "They miss how this feels. I'm trying to help."
While I was sorting paperwork today (see above post), I was talking to the ESI-Se about Socionics while she was selling my old furniture on Facebook Marketplace.
She hates to hear me talk about Socionics, because it interferes with her prejudice that every person can be any special kind of snowflake that they choose to be, and that nothing is predetermined. However, I'm kind of an asshole and I keep talking about it, although less than I used to when she first started working with me. Fortunately, she seems to forget nothing; she's a typical ESI. Lol.
So I've told her that our Quadra is all about money and contracts, and I'm all about cold hard facts and my ability to be ethical is fairly coarse-grained, in the sense that I'm fine with making laser weapons which will destroy humanity as long as I can make a profit from them. She is wonderful in the sense that she hasn't hit me with a shovel yet. I'm helped by the fact that she can see for herself how well we get along, so I think she's sold on the idea that there are some people out there, not necessarily types, who simply don't fight. She also is able to see the strained interaction that I have with my SLI son, and wanted to know how I felt about that. I told her that I liked and respected him, but the Supervision relationship that he and I have is one of the worst ITRs and it takes work and skill to stay on the sunny side of the street.
It also helps that I've hired other people for this project, and I know all their types and I tell her how their types will interact with both me, her, and with each other. She's beginning to see this stuff. But she's a CP e6, so she Doubts.
Sometimes, I can see the wheels turning in her head, when she is thinking about her past GFs.
She is a "Working" Dual with a different subtype than mine, and I've told her that I have a "Living" Dual, with the same subtype as mine. I can tell that she is intensely interested in this other subtype, and in seeing me interact with her, although she tries to hide this interest.
Today, a woman came to pick up a shelving unit that the ESI-Se posted for sale. The woman walked in the door, then said she had to do something with her car, and bounced out again. When she was out of earshot, I told the ESI-Se that the woman was an ESI-Fi, and the ESI-Se immediately stuck like glue to watch us interact.
The ESI-Fi came in again and I showed her the shelving unit, and she was enchanted. I said, "Do you like it? Really?"
"Yes! My husband and I just moved here and this will be perfect for our place. Why do you ask?"
Before I could answer, the ESI-Se said, "It belonged to his ex-wife and we're making a clean sweep." But that wasn't really the reason that I asked her if she liked it.
I said, "My ex picked this out, and while she normally had terrific taste, I never liked this."
"Well", said the woman. "In that case, I'll drop my offer to $20."
I laughed. "No way. You agreed to buy it at the asking price and you never go back on a contract."
She laughed. "You're right. I never break a contract."
She continued, looking at the ESI-Se, "Should we put this on your credit card or do you prefer cash? Because Cash is King."
The ESI-Se said, "The credit card works", and they completed the transaction and I loaded the shelving unit into her SUV.
As she was getting into the car, I asked her, for the benefit of the ESI-Se, "What does your husband do?"
The ESI-Fi hesitated for just a moment, since this question was outside what was strictly necessary for a mercantile transaction, but she decided that I was OK and answered, "He's a nuclear engineer."
I said, "Yay, Thinkers." She looked thoughtful, smiled, and then off she went.
I looked at the ESI-Se. She started to laugh with amazement. "You did that on purpose. To show me that she was my type. And her husband was your type."
"Yep. Notice she said, Cash is King, she never goes back on a contract, and she's married to a nuclear engineer. Pretty much classic."
The ESI-Se thought about this for a while. "How did you know she was my type? We look completely different."
I said, "It was something in her face. I can see it, but I can't explain it. But with practice, you can do it, too. And you'll need to, because my type is pretty rare."
I'm paying an ESI who works for me enough so she can start investing. I introduced her to my investment guy and I showed her how her money can grow if invested, minus inflation, so she's going to have to watch out for fees and taxes and she should invest carefully but she can stand some risk at this point.
She thanked me and then said, "Do you think there will always be inflation?"
Gak. I didn't know where to begin to answer her and as I struggled to reply, she saw that she had asked a question which made her look massively ignorant, although it's my job to walk her through this process safely.
"Nevermind! Nevermind!", she said, waving her arms in defense. "Tomorrow! You can tell me tomorrow. Right now, we have paperwork to do."
Disaster narrowly averted, I guess.
Hey, in all fairness, when I asked her if I should see an ex-GF just for the sex because I was feeling horny at that moment, she didn't judge me. Or if she did, she kept it to herself and just said "No. That wouldn't be fair to her."
Ah, 1D Te at its finest. Sounds like something I would say.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
Just a sign the duality is functioning. :P
I've hired an ESI-Se Dual to help me redecorate my house, and we get along fantastically well, despite her being a 26 yo lesbian and me being a very hetero male who is over twice her age.
Yesterday, I hired a 60-ish female ESE lighting expert to recommend light placements in all the rooms. The three of us went through the house, with the ESI explaining what we were trying to do and what she thinks will be right for each room.
As she was leaving after giving her recommendations, the ESE said she was late for meeting her friends at a bowling alley, but she thought that the ESI and I would be very happy with the house in the future.
When the ESE was gone, the ESI laughed and said "She thought we were together."
"No. I doubt that. ...Well, maybe. We get along like a very compatible married couple."
"She was probing to find out if you were single, to find out if the field was clear for her."
I laughed. "That's possible. I've been talking to a lot of women who are older and are on dating sites, and the number of men who are my age, available, active, and not destitute is very small."
For some reason, the ESI went into deep Introvert mode when she heard that.
I can’t help but feel your decorator might be falling for you just a little bit, sexualities being as they are. If she has never had close contact with a dual, she is likely finding you to be emotionally dependable, which is ever so elusive and refreshing for Fi bases. Every time I read of your interactions with her I can practically hear her giving a sigh of relief that she’s found someone who is understanding of her.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
@PinKDiGiT18, I don't think she's "falling for me", exactly. Rather, I think she's experiencing Duality, and that alone is seductive. We can't help but support each other's weak functions, and by doing so, each of us is relieved of worrying about those peripheral threats to our peace of mind that distract us from using our dominant functions to their full extent. She and I talked about that today.Quote:
Originally Posted by PinKDiGiT18
I told her that she was going to have to pay taxes on the money she was being paid, and she got upset because she wasn't expecting to have to do that. I explained to her how her income will be reported to the IRS by my bookkeeper because, legal, and this surprised her because she thought that this job was "off the table" like her previous jobs and I said, No, you will make enough to pay taxes and I don't need another audit by the IRS (and then I told her about my other audits and their consequences and that's why I walk on the sunny side of the street now) and she got silent and when I asked her what was wrong, she said that she was afraid the IRS would come after her for previous years of unreported income and I said No, she was safe because her earnings weren't that great. Then she said that she was now afraid that she was going to have to learn all about tax law to defend herself (undefended Te) and I asked her if she thought I had to learn all about color matching or if I could just hire it out, and she got it. She doesn't need to learn Te taxes if she has an advisor she trusts. So, I covered her 1D Te.
Then, later, she told me again that she wanted to cook meals for me to get me to live more healthily and to protect me from myself. (She's seen me stirring instant coffee into cold water in a glass jelly jar with my finger and got out her phone to film it.) Well, having someone want to cook me a meal hits me in my weak Fi and I feel "grateful-loved-fearful-undeserving" like the five-year-old that my Fi actually is, and I don't know how to respond to that or how to defend against the intimacy that it represents because the five-year-old inside me was pretty fucked up by his mother's complete lack of Fi love and I get confused and Please stop saying that you want to cook for me and let's talk about something else.
So we cover for each other. But are we falling for each other? I don't think so. I don't have sexual feelings for her, and I'm pretty sure it's mutual, although our level of mutual trust is so great that, if circumstances were different, that would be a very short hop over the broomstick. We're much closer to being mutually understanding buddies right now. She also told me today that she didn't think she would marry a Dual. She said it kind of defiantly, and I said, "You might not", and left it there. But let me tell you, she's going to be measuring all her future relationships against what she's feeling right now.
I do think she finds me irritating at times. She sometimes swears and makes Alphas wince, but she told me to stop using the term "retarded" because it now has bad connotations, and when I quoted to her verbatim a conversation that I had with a racist in Alabama, she told me to never use the N-word, even in quoting, but to instead use the phrase "N-word". Lol. So she's correcting my morals, and she also told me not to tell people in real life exactly what I think of them. Which she has observed me doing several times, because then she had to intercede to smooth things over. She said she's done that several times. Maybe she has; I haven't noticed her doing this, but then, I guess I wouldn't.
Well, yes, she has done that, now that I think of it.
So we're helping each other. I know I'll miss her when she's done with this job. She told me that I have different vibes when she returns to the job after being away for a couple days, and I do feel a loss and honestly, I think I get subconsciously angry when she's not around, but I don't think we're "falling for each other." No. I don't think so.
This is my favorite thread.
God I've stayed out of the gamma threads because i didn't think they were interesting, what a fool I wasQuote:
Originally Posted by PunkSailor
I and the 26 yo lesbian ESI-Se who is beautiful and who gives off Wonder Woman vibes walked to the Alpha-owned-and-run specialty food market to get lunch during a work break. We met my 34 yo LIE-0 investment counselor neighbor on the way, who gave her dirty looks and was polite but terse. I think he thinks we are together, and he clearly disapproves.
We shopped, bought our lunch, and the ESI said to me, "I'll be outside while you check out." I paid for my food and as I was leaving, one of the cashiers behind me said to the other one, "What's he got?"
Lol. He's got Duality, babe.
The ESI redecorator spent the morning buying new stuff for the house, and then we spent the afternoon cleaning out all the piles of paper that I've accumulated. Financial records, memories, junk. She said she feels better when she's unencumbered by physical possessions, and I will, too.
I picked up one of those letters you get from your friends around Christmas which summarize their year and have pictures with the text. It was from my best ESI buddy in high school, and it had a picture of him with his ILI wife. I showed it to the ESI and said "This guy was my best friend in high school. That's his wife."
She looked at the picture of the guy. She could see that he had the same build, the same expression on his face as her. "You told me about him. He's the friend that you thought you'd find more of, when you went to college, but you never did."
I looked at the picture. "That's right."
The ESI-Se redecorator keeps reminding me that she's a lesbian.
I know that. I know. She doesn't have to go on about it.
Today, she said she wants to have kids someday. She should. She's high quality.
Lol does that mean you would have sex with her?Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beautiful sky
I would be willing to have sex with her, and if that led to kids, then all the better, because the world needs more high quality people to solve its problems. But I'm 99.99999999% sure that she wouldn't have sex with me. She's not lying when she says she's a lesbian. I've seen the way she looks at women. And the way that some of them respond to her. It's like, hot and smokey and unbutton that blouse.
Honestly, I think she'd get a donor to have kids. She's only talking to me because I'm the first Dual that she's met, and my God, Duality is appealing.
I wonder what would happen if you replied "me too"Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
Yes I know what you mean. You should have seen my ESI aunt and cousin the first time they met a dual. Their eyes and hearts stuck by the LIE. I am Fi and I observe relationships and attractions and that was so flame like.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalinoche buenanoche
I told her that she and I have a lot in common. For instance, we both like women.
She did not like that. I thought she'd laugh, but she was not amused for some reason.
ESI-Fi (E9? E4?): “The more I make, the more I spend.”
LIE-Te (e8w7): “I think that’s pretty normal.”
............................
LIE-Te (e8w7): “I think you should get used to making lots of money. What are you going to do with it?”
ESI-Se (e6w7 CP): “I don’t spend much. I believe in living very minimally. Like, I want to fit everything I own into a backpack.
”Maybe you can show me how to invest it?”
LIE-Te (e8w7): “I can do that. The nuts and bolts of it, anyway. You’ll have to decide for yourself what you are comfortable with.”
This isn't an ESI/LIE conversation, but this thread seems to be the most appropriate place to say this without starting a new thread.
At the moment, I have two ESIs in my life. One is an ESI-Se, and the other is an ESI-Fi. They feel very, very different to me, despite me liking both of them a lot.
The ESI-Se feels more like an Activity partner, as if she were an SEE, except she's not as flighty as SEEs.
The ESI-Fi feels more like an EII Semi-Dual to me, except she's able to influence me to do things, which the EIIs are not.
Adam, I am enjoying reading this thread which I haven't seen in awhile. The IRS papers: they are going to be DONE soon. At least put them somewhere poised for trash, for as soon as you have the reality confirmed that there will be no income tax anymore. : )Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
@Eliza Thomason, that's exactly what we did. We filed the papers and bagged the receipts by year and threw out everything that was more than five years old.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason
Now, with every passing year, we will throw out the five-year-old papers. Feels good.
ESI-Se CP 6w7: I think the whole world is going wrong and people are shit.
LIE-Te 8w7: I'm the opposite. I think that we can fix the world and that most people are basically good.
ESI-Se CP 6w7: I think people like YOU are what's wrong with the world.
LIE-Te 8w7: Maybe you can fix things. After all, you're the only person I listen to. You're the only person who seems to be able to get me to do things I don't want to do. Or stop me from doing things I shouldn't do. In return, I can provide you guys with some optimism and an assured, secure future.
ESI-Se CP 6w7: You can't do that. No one can do that. I don't need you in my life.
I hired an ESI-Se Decorator to fix my house, because I sure as hell can’t do it alone. She hasn’t worked specifically as a paid decorator before, but I’ve seen the interior spaces that she has arranged, and they are both appropriately Gamma, which is important to this boy who was raised Delta and wants to get back home, and they are extremely comfortable and tasteful. IMO.
Plus, she’s available for a while and we get along.
Today, she pointed to a wall and said, “That has to go.” So my son and the other Destructor Crew members got the chop saws and sledge hammers and they all took down the wall. It was a huge amount of work.
After the ESI left for the day, my son said, “Dad, you were right about her not having many other jobs. She’s amazed that I get here early and work late. She’s clearly not used to working.”
I said, “Well, it’s not because she doesn’t want to work.”
“No, I didn’t mean that. She jumps right in and she’s learning how to wire and lots of other stuff. But she gets worn out after a few hours. I guess it’s because she has a Master’s in Psychology.”
I said, “It’s because she hasn’t had to work manual jobs. Her parents are well off and she’s not really had to work. Plus, she’s been supported by the State for the last few years.”
He said, “She seems like a Flower Child.”
He was referring to her loud laugh and innocent, wide-eyed approach to life.
“Here, let me show you something.”
I went over to a bookshelf and got down a book.
“When your mother and I were newly married, before you were born, dude, she gave me this book and we read it together. It has a test in it.” The book was Keirsey’s Please Understand Me.
I opened the book to a bookmarked page and said, “Here. Read these two paragraphs.”
Next to the title The ENTJ “Fieldmarshal” was my name, penciled in. A result of one of the tests we took. Under that, it read:
“The ENTJ is a natural “fieldmarshal,” that is, he’s itching to get his hands on several “armies” so that he can marshal his forces and conduct the “war” as it should be conducted. If our ENTJ is in charge of any kind of enterprise, however small, his temperament dictates that he run it as he would his armies – with an eye to long-term strategies and their derivative tactics, logistics, and consequences. In startling contrast to this, the fieldmarshal is enamored by the “flower child,” the bucolic artist ISFP, tranquilly ensconced next to Walden Pond! Perhaps the ENTJ wishes a spouse who will share with him or her the quiet of the forest and field far from the madding crowd, thus separating home from work by a great, insulating distance.”
“Flower child”, my son said aloud, and stopped.
“When I first read that passage, newly married to your mother, I thought it was bullshit. I said, “This book is complete bullshit.” I couldn’t imagine me being with a woman who was a flower child.”
“Well,” he said, “you said something to her a few days ago that really pissed her off. She was mad all day.”
"Do you remember what it was?"
"No."
“Neither do I. I expect that will happen to you with your Duals, too. Duality is not a guarantee that people will get along.”
“OK. Enough of this. You ready to fix these pipes?”
I like that book. I also like Gifts Differing, a lot. They are the best of MBTI. In my experience, using the best of MBTI, such as these books, to gain undeerstandign of MBTI, leads to a different understanding of MBTI than you get from online sources. Specifially, I think the 4 letter types tend to be the same as Socionics when you learn MBTI by books, and if you learn MBTI online, you tend to have issues translating MBTI 4-letter types directly into SOcionics 4-letter types - you instead focus on the use of specific functions, and may translate an ISTj into an ISTp. Do you find that they tend to transfer directly, as they do for me? For me, whatever MBTI type I gave a person is alsways turns otu to be the same in Socionics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
But Socionics is FAR superior to MBTI of course.
You son's reaction sounds consistent to SLI for me. My SLI husband also listens openly to new information, but he tends to hold to "conservative", or previously-held-view, as long as possible, particularly concerning long-held views, and he is relieved for any inconsistensies he perceives that prevent him from having to adopt a new view. [in the above case, I can see how your son would need to see more interaction to understand that an ESI being able to be miffed all day does not normally threaten the dual relationship (business or otherwise) but may instead it may show she feels safe and comfortable enough to be miffed. Particularly in a situation where you are paying her!] My husband does use the new information he receives to, in his own time, with his own contemplation - that includes his own reasearch as well as new information that comes to light, to change his viewpoint. He has surprised me a couple of times with this, when, after he has resisted some new idea or view I have presented, I just take the view of "each to his own", and continue to accumulate more knowledge in the new direction or mystery, and he hangs back and watches (kind of covertly, with no pressure from me) and he researches in his own way. Then he sometimes has, in big ways I did not expect, fo rhis very own reasons, later concedes fully or partially to the new direction of thought or views that I am taking. Any departure of views that remain I feel make sense in what I know of him.
I love how it ends up we are on the same road but gettign to our destination in different ways. It's like we are trying to uncover what the truth is on parallel but differning paths. In that way it is like when we watch a movie together. In a given scene, if he makes any comment, it is always evident that we were looking at COMPLETELY DIFFERENT things in the SAME scene. Every time.
(I meant to write just about how your son is like my SLI husbsand, but I veered off into Duality. I find your duality stories heer intersting because I know duals in the other Quadras but not Gamma.)
I’ve been infrequently dating a married-but-separated ESI-Fi for about 16 months. The first ten months were spent exchanging texts on Match.com. We go out to eat and go for walks. It’s very platonic, but she’s the only Dual I’ve run across who is both attractive and even slightly interested in dating. Although our “dates” are about 3-5 weeks apart.
Two weeks ago, she texted me and said she wants to go to Chicago for a couple days, together. I thought, “Great! This could be fun.”
I have some trouble understanding her texts. She’s ESI-Fi, and she thinks the world is centered on herself. For example, she’ll say things that are snippets of conversations she’s had, but will omit the context. I’m supposed to just know what she means.
So I know a lesbian ESI-Se who is sympathetic to my attempts to date the ESI-Fi and I sometimes use her for translation. I’ll show her a text from the ESI-Fi and will tell her what I want to say and she suggests the phrasing.
Shades of Roxanne.
But it has gone great. The ESI-Fi becomes more fluid and responsive in text when the author is the ESI-Se. Lol.
Anyway, I sent the ESI-Fi an itinerary of things to do in Chicago and didn’t hear from her for a week. I asked the ESI-Se to review my text to see if my approach was wrong and she said it seemed generally ok.
”But she hasn’t responded to me for a week!”, I said.
”Yeah, I’ve noticed that,” said the ESI-Se, with a hint of disapproval in her voice.
Having 1D Fi means I’m fucking clueless when it comes to knowing what I can expect from romantic partners. So maybe I’m not asking too much if I expect an SO to actually respond to me when I speak. I’ve read that Gottman says this is the cornerstone of good relationships, but I’m not putting this into practice.
Maybe the ESI-Fi is not the girl for me.
*EDIT*
Now that I think about it, she’s displaying classic “avoidance” symptoms. I told myself that she was just getting over her trust issues that resulted from two bad marriages. She seems to like being hugged when I’m there. But you know, even avoidant people need love. Just not very often, and on their own limited terms.
I already went through an Avoidant relationship with my ex-wife. There’s no need to repeat this.
I read this and knew immediately this wasn't going to end well. I don't want to seem patronizing but when I see your posts on here I always feel a little sorry for you. You sound like someone who wants to be close to someone but can't quite figure out who you should trust.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
You really show me suggestive Fi in action.
This further illustrates my point.Quote:
Having 1D Fi means I’m fucking clueless when it comes to knowing what I can expect from romantic partners. So maybe I’m not asking too much if I expect an SO to actually respond to me when I speak. I’ve read that Gottman says this is the cornerstone of good relationships, but I’m not putting this into practice.
Maybe the ESI-Fi is not the girl for me.
It sounds like from what I read she isn't interested in anything long term. Just my 2 cents.Quote:
Now that I think about it, she’s displaying classic “avoidance” symptoms. I told myself that she was just getting over her trust issues that resulted from two bad marriages. She seems to like being hugged when I’m there. But you know, even avoidant people need love. Just not very often, and on their own limited terms.
I already went through an Avoidant relationship with my ex-wife. There’s no need to repeat this.
I don't know if I agree that this means it's ending or she is disinterested. Maybe. But you definitely never want her to feel sorry/pity for you at all. And also this is certainly the most wrong time of all to correct her on her relationship skills. I do think you just have to sit tight and wait. If you press in, she will pull away. Especially if she is getting scared because of the reasons she gave (her past). So let her be alone since she seems to need that now. It's hard, but it's better than pushing her further. If she sees you are giving her space, she can get comfortable with having the space she wanted, but the big gap should eventually make her curious, and lead to a desire to close it a bit. The curiosity will escalate if she contacts you and finds no sign that she caused any desperation. So just be patient, and seek peace in the waiting.
If you want to understand this romance-dance with one of a pair pulling away from the other, and you want to do well the only thing that works to get her back vs. push her further away, get the book "Love Must Be Tough" by James Dobson, and he will explain this strategic situation perfectly. See reviews on Amazon. A lot of happy readers. It will give you confidence and hope while you wait. The "technique" in this book saved my sis-in-law's marriage when she was at a simlar crossroads, with a husband turning bored/disintersted (it got him back, and they are still together many years later). Also I recommeneded it to someone here on 16T, when she was unhappily in the same spot, and she got the book, did what was instructed and she said it worked exactly for her! I was so glad for her. (I forget her name here, but i think fox-something). Álso the author tells of how he learned this technique by his wife using it on him in their early dating years, and they are still together many, many years later, too. (Don't let her, or maybe ESI-Se, either, see or read the book. Mystery is everything with this.)
I told this ESI-Se female that I've been occasionally dating an ESI-Fi who doesn't seem very interested in maintaining the relationship. I've been going slow because the ESI-Fi has had two bad marriages and a bad divorce lawyer, etc., etc. and maybe she needs time to heal and to begin to trust again.
The ESI-Se said "Bullshit. I think you should date someone else, rather than wait around forever for something that's never going to happen."
Wow. Timber said that "things happen fast around LIEs", but I think he was referring to work stuff. I'd say that relationship stuff happens fast around ESIs. But I guess if you are an Fi-dom, you spend a LOT of time processing information about relationships. So, you can have the answers ready when needed.
I have another series of thoughts to add, regarding your thoughts/concerns that dear ESI-Fi may be an Avoidant Type, which you would understandably want to avoid, since you had a previous long experience with that, which you naturally desire to avoid repeating.
What I want to say is that it likely should take thought, observation, and much time getting to know her to determine whether she is an actual Avoidant Type, or, simply a normal type experiencing needs/desires to act avoidant at times, especiallyt at times when things naturally trigger her past problems with the previous negative relationships.
These triggers are naturally going to happen when she is considering getting deeper in intimacy, especially when/if she is considering a first big step. Which she must have been considering as a desirable step to take at the moment when she suggested an overnight trip with you. But her having second thoughts about getting in deeper in your relationship means a hesitation is normal, considering her past she needs to resolve. [She likely triggered big fears with her suggestion that would/might be a natural going-deeper step, fears that her strong Fi now needs to process alone, resulting in her "rudely" not communicating with you about this change of mind, and whatever it involves for her).
And likewise, you feeling really bad, and even feeling a bit of a sense of betrayal (betrayal is the most painful thing there is) when this hurdle is suddenly and inexpicibly thrown in front of mid-race* is totally understandable, but, for the strategic reasons explained in great detail in the above-mentioned book, your next move in this game of romance is very important, and you want to make big efforts to hide that particular natural reaction from her at this time, keeping your cards close to your chest and wearing your poker face.
If/when she gets over this trigger, IMO, the next triggers that show up should go much easier and easier, and be less and less severe, once she knows what your response to her pulling away is (which is: "easy", and makes her feel safe). For someone with past relationship trauma it is very important not to push the start of intimacy; you need to be extremely patient about that and properly respond to her unforeseen (should be temporary) barricades she throws up like this. Because she IMO is very likely in active healing, thorough your relationship, it is probably a very good sign that triggers happen, because they need to come out in order for her to heal from them, so that she can move forward. Which is the goal!
But you hold a Trump Card, one that can easily result in the Big Jackpot, and that is that this is a Dual relationship, and duals, being in proximity and just simply being your easy, normal authentic selves in each other's company is the most psychologically healing of all relationships. Really! Your relationship and time spent together, (and likely, your friendship with the lesbian ESI-Se is also working this way for you two), even when just texting, is more deeply healing to you both, in a way better, way faster, and way more effective way than would be CBT therapy sessions or expensive long therapy with a psychiatrist! And way more fun.
I think I have heard you express before the desire not to wait about too long for the intimacy in a relationship to begin, so you will consciously need to develop patience here. But the healing will happen with the two duals spending time together. So just let her take her natural Agressor role of your pair, and play the majestic Queen, who is the final authority on exactly when all things are to happen, and you, her Loyal Subjert, who embraces his humble role, wait for her authorative word (timing, etc.) without questioning it, and I think, when it begins to go deep, you will be in it for good. And you will rejoice that it was well worth the wait!
[Hopefuly I haven't jumped to any wrong conclusions here, invalidating what I have opined on, since everything I know about this relationship is just from this thread!]
I want to emphasize my point that while certain episodes may make her seem to be an Avoidant Type, what you are seeing may possibly only be the necessary avoidant behaviors displayed while she is working through triggers to the past that must come out in order to be healed. So there is a difference between avoidant behaviors and Avoidant Personality, and you don't want to misunderstand whatever the reality actually is. Two very diffrent things. One to be avoided, one to be patient about while it is worked through.
Not that I know a lot about Avoidant Personality. What I do know a lot about is Narcicisst Personality Disorder, having lived life with an NPD for many years (the vast bulk of those years, ignorant of the NPD reality, making me the perfect victim to it). Besides that experience, I have read very extenisvely the intellectual and respected works of Dr. Sam Vaknin, NPD, on the subject, and in more recent years, I have watched piles of expert Dr. Ramani videos on NPDs, so I truly do know the NPD subject. And to segway the above topic and this, we live in Narcissistic times, with much of our world run by NPDs, so we are surrounded, and like Avoidant Types vs. avoidant behaviors, it is also easy to confuse NPD types with just narcissistic behaviors (which we all have, to one degree or another). (see in red, below!)
*which, in turn, makes you mindful of other inexplicable things she has done, like, as you described above, telling a thing while leaving out the entire context. Which is confusing! But that one is easy. You ARE her Dual, and you can laugh it off and be frank and tell her how confusing this is to you, like, "Hey! You left out the context! How am I supposed to get that?!"
Which is also a very loving thing, because behind that frank statement, you are actually saying: "I am listening to you, because you are so important to me, in every way, and I want to understand everything you say, because everything about you matters to me. So please, enlighten me to your ways, O my Dual, who is opposite of me in every way/function, excepting our j/p preference!"
___________
Yes, it takes work for Duals to get off the ground, and for the connection to be sealed, but at least you have been granted the Socionics aforeknowledge that once the connection is made, it becomes harder and harder, practically impossible to sever. It's a pretty permanent tie! Worth the work for sure! So I discern that maybe for you a big part of this work will be patience, particularly magnified and painful to give at times such as these. To sacrfice (or put off), to die (temporarily) to your great desire by granting her the great gift of patience, is heroic. And who doesn't love a man who lays down his life for her? Really, that is the stuff of the ultimate romantic hero.
___
And so now, in this little paragraph, I want to take the opportunity to segway into a statment that I am glad to have the opportunity to make, because it is the truth, and I like to state the truth. The LYING MEDIA of our times - - and that Media of today is in fact exactly PERFECTLY described 2000 years ago, by the Apostle John, in the Book of Revelation, in the form of a [I]very[/] strange creature, so strange that it all these centruies of Bible study by the most excellent and most intelligent theologians of all times it can ONLY be recognized in these very days - - THAT lying Media, that likes to repeart and repeat what they KNOW are LIES**, because, they know that if you repeat a lie often enough people will think it is the truth, and they are unrepentant liars and they can only lie. One of the many, many lies they like to repeat and repeat, so that you can believe it on that basis alone, is that President Donald J. Trump is an NPD. He is NOT, which is why NO true NPD expert is EVER interviewed saying that he is an NPD. Everybody has narcissitic behaviors. SLEs included. Our President Donald J. Trump is NOT an NPD.
**The Media has been on this lying mission with determined unrelenting constancy for decaades. They are the enemy, and they do not have our good in mind. Never, never forget the most timely quote, nor the context of when and where it was made, of former CIA Director William Casey's "We will know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false."
_________
ESI: *existential worry about climate change*
LIE: Everything is going to be fine.
Sometimes I don't want to share my worries with LIE because I feel brushed off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Great
Would it be better to hear that we'll all be dead in fifty years and there's nothing, absolutely nothing, that you can do to change that fact?
Forty-three percent of humanity is busy punching holes in the hull of the Titanic as it is sinking.
When I and my "ideal" ESI-Se CP e6w7 female Dual go out to buy stuff, people assume that we're together. Personality-wise, we're an almost perfect match.
She just told me that she likes it when her SO's are sexually aggressive.
So what's stopping me? Not the fact that she sleeps with women. I don't care about that.
Maybe it's the fact that she's 26 and I'm older than her father. That might be it.
FML and my ethics.
Yeah, you do have a point. Makes me wonder if I'm expecting too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
I’m almost done with working with an ESI-Se on redecorating my house. She set out a vision that I like and appreciate and it’s being implemented.
She said she wants to work with me on future projects. I’m up for that because we work well together.
She’s kind of a perfect Socionics and Enneagram match for me, and she’s got a Secure attachment style. She said she feels protective of me and I definitely have her back. I told her that if I had two wishes, they would be that I would be 29 and she would be straight. We both laughed at the impossibility of this.
Well, I was laughing on the outside, anyway.
I've been paying the ESI-Se redecorator a lot, compared to what most people make.
I'm 1D Fi so I have trouble assigning value to things, including my own actions. Worst case, I've asked myself if I'm grooming her for future sex, but I don't think the evidence bears this out. I'm attracted to her ESI-ness and her mental health, and not her body, believe it or not. Besides, she's a lesbian so there's no real potential there.
Instead, I think I'm paying her a lot to keep her around (she's e6w7 and tends to wander, and God, I like having her around), and also to bring her up closer to my own level of earning. (Gamma is a democratic Quadra.) Not everyone realizes just how much money there is out there, so I'm helping her get used to making a lot. I'm not sure how much she's going to make as a social worker, which she's training for.
She said that, as part of her training, the U of M is going to send her to Detroit to work with disadvantaged people. Her father is an immigration lawyer and her mother is a therapist, so she has been immersed in a culture of caring.
I said to her, "I respect that. Helping people, that is. Personally, I could help them, but I don't want to."
She thought about that for a minute. "That's because you're an asshole."
The funny thing is, while I am an asshole, or can certainly play one well*, I didn't feel like she was exactly condemning me when she said that.
*
pingas
I don't normally obsess over what people think of me, but I can't seem to let go of the fact that an ESI 6w7 called me an asshole and said that I'm what's wrong with the world.
Not that she's wrong. No.
I'm just wondering if I should try to be a better person. How would that even look?
What did you do/say that made her say that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
I’ve been sinking into depression for the last few days. I can feel it. The ESI-Se who said I’m an asshole is going to start grad school this week and that will be the end of our contacts for a while. Months, maybe a year.
She called me this morning and said she starts school tomorrow. She sounded nervous. She said she wants to come over for an hour and talk about life, the universe, and everything.
My depression just vanished. She has said that being around me calms her down. Maybe she needs me the way I need her.
If you could bottle Duality and sell it, you’d be a very rich individual.
LIE: "All my life, I've been trying to excel. I've always wanted to be better than the average person and to stand out in some way. Maybe this was due to being told by my parents that I didn't measure up to their expectations, but in any case, I've had to work really hard to achieve the things I've done."
ESI: "What you really need is simple affirmation that you're worth spending time with."
LIE thinks, "Damn, she's right. That's the essential lack that runs through my entire life. But that's not all I need. I also need a smart, attractive babe who thinks for herself."
The ESI-Se won't be seeing me for a few weeks or months while she starts grad school, so she came over with a recorder to capture my voice.
(I once had a GF who, when I was out of town, would sleep with my unlaundered T-shirts.)
ESI-Se, turns on recorder: "OK, tell me what type I am."
LIE-Te: "You're an ESI-Se and an enneagram 6w7 with a Secure attachment style, and are also extremely smart and healthy."
ESI-Se: "What do all those things mean?"
LIE-Te goes into a long explanation of information exchange and the enneagram. ESI-Se gets bored.
ESI-Se: "I think it's time to do something."
LIE-Te: "You look like you hate this personality stuff."
ESI-Se: "I do hate it. I hate the idea that people are placed into categories. That they can't be anything that they want to be."
LIE-Te: "I used to think that everyone I met was a special snowflake. That they might be anything at all. I quickly saw that Socionics does put them into defined categories in many respects. Not in all respects, but in enough to be useful."
ESI-Se: "OK. Enough. Time to work."
She turns off the recorder.
LIE, to a female ESI he hired to do some work on his house: "You know, when we go out to buy stuff, people think we're a couple."
ESI, relying to a male LIE who is older than her father: "Yeah. A totally age-inappropriate couple."
LIE, laughs: "Right."
LIE thinks, "Neither one of us is making any PDAs. We're just comfortable and supportive with each other. Duality is a strong drug. It might be the model for what most people unconsciously imagine a good marriage would look like, where the partners are also best friends."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
Thanks for sharing your story, I find it very enlightening.
Regarding Climate Change, I too would be offended when people say "everything will be alright", because such thinking undermines the need to take action. Rather I would hear about solutions to convince me why things might end okay. Or even better yet, how I can take action myself to contribute to a solution. I'm not an ESI, but as a fellow Gamma those are my two cents.
Also, you're repeatedly saying that you don't want to help people who you don't know. But how can you be sure of that, if you haven't tried it yet? Te-users need a meaningful goal to strive towards too. If not, we tend to earn a lot of money, only to burnout when we realize money is meaningless when we have no-one to share it with.
If anything, message her that you would like to see the work that she's doing, not just hearing about it. And tell her that you would like giving it a shot yourself. Take a weekend off to visit her in Detroit and join her at her work with disadvantaged people.That way you show to her that you're making an effort to see things from her perspective as well. You might even redeem yourself from "asshole" status when you start connecting to the people you help and find out how rewarding it can be.
Heck, you might even come across some nice lady yourself there. Work, work, work definitely has not been the place to find the person you're looking for, and dating apps and websites tend to be rather superficial. So, there's no better place to find the person who you're looking for than when you explore that which your Dual loves most of all. If anything, it would be a good opportunity to nurture your Fi, which you seem to have neglected for quite long.
Sorry, if I sound rather direct, but I'm a LIE and Dutch. Directness is in my culture, I'm afraid, haha. ��
I was talking to an ESI-Se interior decorator a few weeks ago. I’ve been spending money at a remarkably high rate to completely remake my house, and I told her that I was going to be broke at the end of the month.
ESI-Se: “You’re either flush or you’re flat broke.”
LIE-Te: “Uh, yeah... Actually, I have plenty of money. I’m just getting to the point where I’ve spent all the money I mentally allocated to this project. Obviously, I underestimated.”
My SLI-Te son chimed in. “He says he’s broke, but he always comes up with the money.”
I guess that’s how it looks from the outside.
Is this not the most concise explanation of an LIE?Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
LIE-Ni male / ESI-Se female
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjAJkX_wGmA
In another video, they were talking about how they handle issues in their life.
him: "We're still going through stuff."
her: "It's easier to ride the waves now."
him: "But it just seems like it's never-ending, there's always something new."
her: "It's called resilience. You need to foster your resilience so it doesn't effect you as much."
him: "...Kind of hard."
Quote:
Originally Posted by toska
Link to that video?
@toska, I think you got these two typed correctly. The guy acts just like an LIE-Ni whom I know, and the girl is very close to an ESI-Se that I know.
Right on, it was around 16:30.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DH_yYOWIMtw
She might be EII alternatively but some interesting Te-Fi moments regardless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
This isn't exactly a conversation, but it is an interaction.
My relationship with an ESI-Fi is doing a slow-motion crash and burn, even though its platonic. This is bothering me a lot.
This lesbian ESI-Se who I think is almost perfect has helped me a bit in texting the ESI-Fi (so the ESI-Fi won't be shocked by the natural differences between an ESI whom she understands, and an LIE who seems like a space alien) and she's seen her picture, but she thinks the relationship is doomed and advised me to date someone else.
Well, I thought. I have someone in mind, but I'm not a girl.
Man, the ESI-Fi just isn't ready for a relationship, and I'm feeling sorry for what might have been. I did something that I never would normally do; I took a screenshot of a naked porn actress who looks almost exactly like her, and now it's on my phone's picture gallery. I've been meaning to delete it to restore my self-pride, but I haven't yet.
Yesterday, I was going to show the ESI-Se pictures of my place in the country to point out where she can have a bonfire for her birthday party, and we were both looking at my phone when the gallery came up with the tiny picture of the naked porn star amongst the scenery pics. It's exactly the kind of picture that a guy might take of a beautiful woman whom he's just had sex with. She's sitting there looking nice and warm and Fi introspective.
Shit, I thought. I tilted the phone away from her and cleared my throat and said "Wait a minute. Let me find it." But I'm pretty sure she saw it. She may have mistaken it for a picture of the ESI-Fi, since they look almost identical.
After I found the right pictures, I handed her the keys to the place and she thanked me. Then she looked at me and made a quick phone call to a male friend of hers.
Now, I don't care if she has sex with women, but I'm insanely jealous of the fact that she's hanging out with guys. I try to be cool about this, but she's smart and a feeler and I think it's prudent to assume that she knows how I feel about her and how I feel about her with other men.
So now I'm wondering if we were testing each other? "Hey, do you like me? Am I the most important person in your life, or don't you care that I might be seeing someone else?
I also think it's safe to assume that she knows how you feel about her, the question is, why is it she continues to hang around you so much? That's what I would be trying to answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
Also, do you think she is sexually interested in these men? Why does it make you jealous?
A mercenary person would say that I'm a good source of resources for her. I've bought her art in the past and I hired her this summer to redecorate my house.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eudaimonia
A romantic person would say that we are Duals and she just feels more sane and comfortable around me.
I will assume that the truth is somewhere in the middle.
I don't think she is sexually interested in these men, but I'm afraid that at some point, she's going to decide she's not a lesbian and will marry one of these guys. This probably indicates a complete lack of understanding of sexuality on my part, but that's how I feel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eudaimonia
I mean, she sleeps with women, but my first sexual adventures were with guys, so sexual identity can be complicated and it can evolve until we sort out what we really want.
These guys make me jealous because they have something that I never will; age appropriateness. I think jealousy is a feeling that people get when they wish for the unattainable.
Oh wow, I didn't know you used to be gay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
Lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by FrassatiLo
@FrassatiLo, I'm gay the same way that you're a German citizen.
Well, I had a date set up with an ESI e9 from Match and because she's a fucking ESI, she cancelled a few hours before the date "because she's sick".
I've known and/or gone out with the following ESIs:
1. SW-e4 - Wanted to share an apt, but I think I'm too old for her.
2. AS-e6 - Likes me but won't date me.
3. BK-e6 - Instantly agreed to a date, then continuously postponed date after date after date until I just stopped.
4. MP-e6 - Instantly (first ten minutes of meeting) suggested going out, then postponed date after date after date until I just stopped.
5. BD-e6 - Agreed to go out on a date after texting for six months, then postponed date after date after date until I just stopped.
6. EM-e9 - Suggested a date after one day of texting and then cancelled a few hours before the date.
If you ask me, which you didn't, but if you are an LIE reading this you should ask my opinion, I'd say that ESIs have serious attachment issues and are scared of every fucking thing that their imaginations can dream up. I used to think that this was an e6 thing, or an age-related thing in the sense that I'm only dating older women who are still available and hence have Attachment issues, but no. Half the women I've dated have been under 35 and they did the same thing. And the latest is an e9 and she postponed. FML. Fuck my Duals.
OK, I posted this in the ESI-LIE conversation thread, so here's a conversation between an LIE e8 and an ESI e9 from Match.
ESI-LIE Conversation:
ESI-e9: "Hello!"
LIE-e8: "Are you real? I've been on this site for five years and I haven't seen a smart, attractive woman who lives in Ann Arbor yet."
ESI-e9: "Thanks for the complement. Yes, I'm real."
LIE-e8: "I'm glad you're real. What are you looking for on Match?"
ESI-e9: "It's OK to question, especially in this day and time! Looking for the One!"
LIE-e8: "Oh. "The One." That's a tall order. I did an analysis and I think there might be nine suitable women in the greater AA metro area. Haven't found one yet."
Nineteen days later, a Message:
ESI-e9: "Hi, Adam. I apologize for my delayed response to you. Please let me know if you'd like to get to know each other further. :) "
LIE-e8: "Yes, I'd like to meet you. No need to apologize. How about coffee or lunch? You name the place."
ESI-e9: "Oh, thank you, Adam! :) I don eat lunch, but how about (place) at Tuesday around 5:00?
Oh, goodness, I am sorry for the typo! I meant to type 'I do not eat...' "
LIE-e8, now ignoring the constant thanking me and apologizing, because this usually spells trouble but let's give her the benefit of the doubt: "Tuesday at (place) at 5 PM is good. See you then."
ESI-e9: "OK, great. Thank you, Adam. See you then. If something changes, please let me know."
LIE-e8, thinking that mentioning "change" already is either a sign of responsibility or an indication of future flakiness: "Will do."
Two days later, a Message:
ESI-e9: "Good morning, Adam. I'm sick and I'm staying home and working from home today. I am so sorry I will have to cancel our meeting for today. Maybe we can meet another time."
LIE-e8, thinking that she's a flake but still not being rude about it because I have poor boundaries: "OK, let me know when you are feeling better."
But basically, I think I'm done. She may think she's real, but she's not.
Everything you say makes me think you're actually E3 and not E8. You just summed up E3 complex in a nutshell right there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
I've thought this, too. Also I feel like Eights show up as a lot more reactive on here, or just gruff and standoffish.Quote:
Originally Posted by squark
@squark, when I took an ennagram test, I got 8w7 - 3w2 - 6w7. So I have e3 tendencies, just not as many as my need to not be controlled.Quote:
Originally Posted by squark
https://i.imgur.com/Pd7F2Dg.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/3mOhO76.jpg
The ESI who told me that has an SEE e3 father of whom she is fairly critical, and an EIE therapist mother, so she might have framed her response to me in that context.
Reading all of that was painful, lol. I'm just sitting here like...why go through all these hypothetical possible outcomes (which may not even be accurate) when it's so simple? Just muster up the guts to give your honest opinion and be done with it. LolQuote:
Originally Posted by Zero
I had a (lesbian) e6 Dual ESI-Se help me with redecorating my house this summer and then she went to grad school, so I figured that working with her was a great experience but just a one-off. Then she called me this week and proposed that we get together for a few hours every week because the place isn't finished. I agreed, because I can't find anyone who is even close to her in good taste, or in coming up with solutions that I like. And the place is only about half-done.
So we met this morning and then went to get some coffee. When I started the car, the car started playing music, which it does sometimes. I can leave the radio on, or it grabs my iPhone songs and just plays them. The ESI exclaimed "The car is playing my iPhone!"
I said, "Is it?"
"Yes." She took her phone out of her purse and I turned off the speakers. "I was listening to this song earlier." ...... "Do you want to hear it?"
"Yes, of course. What I heard sounded nice. Very ESI-like, actually."
She laughed and reset her iPhone to start the song from the beginning again while I turned on the speakers, and this is what it played:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5KAc5CoCuk
The song is pretty, like an ESI, but I don't speak French.
Ever read anything by smilingeyes where he accurately describes Te-Fi duality as being: Te gives protection and public face, Fi gives the content and the motivation?
I was talking to an ESI today. She said she wanted to go to a coffee shop to talk at one of the public outdoor tables, so I took her there.
She chose a table where we could see and be seen by everyone. https://i.imgur.com/Xv3Kg2x.jpg
She asked me "What do you want to do with the rest of your life? What would make you happy?"
Lol. I answered honestly, "I have no idea."
I've always loved this song. Your friend has good tastes, lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
This one by her is one of my favorites.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOPl3xtMVCA
Haha, true. Well, that was a long time ago, in the end I did tell them what I really thought and broke off relations. It was painful but must have been done.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix Fire
I see. That's unfortunate then, sorry that happened. Tbh though if you can't be open around someone it doesn't sound like a great match in the first place so it sounds like you are probably better off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero
So you're not gay yet but plan on becoming gay later, when you get the chance?Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
I had a work meeting this morning which included a male ESI Dual from another company. After the meeting broke up, he and I went to lunch together because we like each other and we get along. We've had lunch a couple times before. He's single and I want to help him find a female LIE, but they are so rare....
At lunch, I told him that I'm working with an interior decorator artist who is the same type as he is (ESI). They even look alike, if you can imagine that.
Anyway, he asked me how I met her, and I said I commissioned a work of art from her.
"And did you let her know that you liked her?"
"Eventually, kind of, I guess," I said. "I stood really close to her in her studio."
"What did she do then?"
"She turned to me and said, "Back up, bub."
The male ESI started laughing. "That's perfect!", he said.
I was sitting there, slightly steaming. "No, that's not perfect. It felt like a complete shutdown."
He said, still laughing his head off, "No. That response was very measured. It left the door open."
"Adam, you should have then said to her, "Oh, so I should let that spider that I just stepped on bite you?""
I thought to myself, "Who the fuck thinks that fast? Only someone who spends 99% of their time thinking about relationships. A 4D Fi person. I, myself, as a 1D Fi person, was just hoping she'd kiss me. :( "
I love Germany. I admire their efficiency, even if separating trash into like 7 bins seems a bit much.Quote:
Originally Posted by FrassatiLo
I can't speak for all ESIs here obviously, but personally, I'm not necessarily a fan of these kinds of responses. It depends on the relationship (intimacy?) I have with someone. If they crossed the line, I asserted my boundaries, and that was their response, I'm just going to interpret that as though that boundary I asserted isn't being taken seriously enough. That'd make me remember it more, keep my guard up more, to assert that boundary harder.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
The fact that your friend said “That response was very measured. It left the door open.” only confirms that my assessment would've been accurate, the boundary wasn't taken seriously. I'm a direct person — I don't play subtle, covert games. If I say back up, it means back up. “Bub” sounds like lack of interest. If it's said in a playful way, I'm smiling, and I tease you sometimes…that's when it's likely just me being spicy.
EDIT: If I wasn't serious and I can tell you interpreted it as though I was (which I would know, as I read people stupidly well), I'll make it known I was playing around by doing something like hypocritically doing the same thing you just did or something…but in a way that's sassy or bratty, not awkward.
TL;DR — you were fine, and more Fi from you is not needed. That is what Fi seeking / Fi providing is about. (This entire situation is about where the boundaries are, AKA the distance/intimacy between people.)
So I fucked up my knee and some other parts of my leg yesterday when I slipped on some wet rocks and fell while running and my knee is at the point where it's not cooperating with the commands my brain is sending it. In other words, I'm not walking well despite my best efforts to walk like a person who isn't handicapped, and an ESI who came over today to do some interior design work on the house noticed it and said I needed to put it on ice and I replied, "OK, I'll do that tonight."
"No you won't. You're lying to me.", she said, correctly.
"Uh," I said, thinking, Damn, she's right. I hate this. I hate being health-challenged. I hate being seen as being weak.
She said, "I'll go over to the drug store and get you something for your knee."
I didn't want that. It doesn't hurt all that much. If she did that, I'd be admitting that I needed health care. But I probably did need health care. And she's proven to be right about things that we disagreed about before. OK, I give up. She wins. I'll accept her help.
"You'd do that for me?"
"Yes." And she was out the door like a shot to run to the drug store in the rain.
Damn.
I don't care that she's a lesbian. I'd marry her in a minute, just to keep her around.
@Adam Strange I wouldn't be surprised if she put you on chondroitin
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalinoche buenanoche
I don't know what it was, @Kalinoche buenanoche. I didn't read the label. She's the 4D Si health expert. I trust her. Isn't she supposed to know this stuff?
Hmm. Maybe I should look. She does need help with Te sometimes.
I was working with this lesbian ESI interior decorator this summer almost every day, then she had to return to Grad school. But we agreed that we work together well and we should keep meeting for four hours a week to keep things progressing.
For the past three weeks, we haven't met because of schedule conflicts, but we met yesterday and got a lot done.
She said that we might be near a stopping point until I can get the ceilings and walls put back up. After that, she can paint and fill the place with furniture. My face fell, because I won't have the walls back up for many weeks yet and that means I won't see her for a long time. I'll tell you the truth; I get normal after spending time with her. And I want that, and I don't want to give it up unless I can replace it with something equal or better.
"However," she said brightly, "because we haven't met for a while, I suggest we meet twice a week for the next few weeks. I'm sure we can make good progress."
Goddam. I think I might be her Heroin. For sure, she's mine.
She'd make a great roommate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
ESI: [A LIE's name] has a big mouth. It's good for shoving dicks in it.
LIE: ...
That's it, that was the entire conversation.
@Phoenix Fire, what were the genders of the two speakers?Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix Fire
I was at the apartment of my LSI (half ESI) first GF, and I said that one of our female co-workers talks all the time, and what's the best way to get her to shut up?
The LSI replied, "Put a dick in her mouth."
I was shocked. "How can you say that?" Remember, she was my first GF, and I was pretty naive.
"Because it's true", she said, pulling down my zipper.
ESI female (me) joking with a heterosexual male LIE (my boyfriend). LmaoQuote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
Is my life a tragedy or a comedy? I can't decide.
I'm sitting here typing this and feeling better and more normal than I have in years, and that's because I've just spent four hours with a great female Dual.
A week or so ago, I went to lunch with a male ESI with whom I work, and he later told me how great that lunch was, how great it was to sit down and have a discussion over a fantastic meal, etc., etc. He was basically telling me that he liked the feeling he got when we were talking over lunch. I did, too, but he's a male and there are better forms of Duality.
The female Dual is an ESI-Se e6 CP artist whom I'm paying to redecorate my house (and reorder my life, but revolutions start by simple acts like robbing a bank).
She worked for me this summer and made what some people make in a year, and yesterday, when she came over, I asked her if she'd invested that yet?
She got this look on her face that looked exactly like the way I feel when someone asks me if I've been to the dentist recently, and why haven't I? She scrunched up her face and got her phone out and said "I'm using my grandmother's financial advisor. I like him. Do you want to see a picture of him?"
She knows that I VI everyone, and so I said "Sure", while reflecting on the fact that I can help her with her obviously difficult problem of getting her finances in order so she'll be rich when she retires. And she can help me with finding value in the things I do, because both she and I are discovering that I can see many futures, but she can help me choose which one I should have. It's her strength in Fi and Se.
God, I'm in love with her.
I'm in love with the way she's able to make my life better. I'm in love with the way that she makes me feel. And I'm in love with the way that I can effortlessly help her in her weak areas.
"Here. That's him. I like him", she said, as she handed me her phone.
I looked at the guy. He was running to fat and had hints of SEE in his face, but if I mentally stripped away the fat, his eyes were ILI. Which is pretty typical of financial advisors, and it's (my great and damned misfortune that it's) typical of an ESI to instantly like an ILI.
As I was holding her phone, looking at the picture of her financial advisor, it rang. The caller was named Ann on the screen.
I handed it back to her. "Phone call", I said.
She took the phone and quickly typed something and put it away. Her latest girlfriend, from the looks of things. Probably not an LIE.
A couple of years ago, a Delta woman on the forum said that she had an LIE boss, and he was smart and good at finding money, but he was completely random and she felt that it was destructive to his business and it made it difficult to work with him.
I've actually met a lot of LIEs like that. They can't remember what the hell they did at the last meeting and they haven't prepared for the present meeting and have to be reminded that they are on Planet Earth and then they launch right into a very capable-looking simulation of a CEO.
I thought that kind of behavior was all from "those" guys, not me.
Yesterday, the ESI-Se who is redecorating my house came over and I started by telling her that I'd found the oak flooring we'll put down but I can't find the window blinds I want, and the money for replacing the ceilings and walls is in the pipeline, and she told me that she hadn't had a chance to find the shower fixtures yet but she would do that soon.
I said, "I wondered if you would remember to do that. I remembered that there was something that you were going to do, but I couldn't remember what it was, but I figured that you would remember."
She stared at me for a minute, and then got a notepad out and wrote down a list of tasks which we need to do, in order, then she taped it to the wall.
"I remember everything," she said. "You're the one who forgets. This is to remind you."
"I have a homework assignment due in a week," she continued. "I finished it yesterday."
I laughed. "I tend to wait until ten minutes before the meeting, then check the meeting notes and say 'Oh, forgot to do all that, guess I'll wing it.'"
"I noticed," she said, deadpan. "That's why I made this list. To keep you on track."
"I'm on track. I have a lot of things going on, and I'm trying to balance them and get them all done in an efficient way."
"Tell me what things."
So I did, and she told me which things were most important to do, in which order. She's good at that, I admit. She's less good at seeing a forward path.
"OK", I said. "That helps me set my priorities."
"Good. Every time I come over here, it's like a new day. Your priorities change every time I see you."
I thought, "Uh oh. That sounds suspiciously like the behavior that I see in other, less competent LIEs."
I said, defensively, "Circumstances change. Sometimes, there's more money available. Sometimes, there are more workers available. Sometimes, you can't get supplies. I'm juggling all of those things and I'm rearranging work assignments, including mine, to optimize the work flow."
"That's fine. But do this list. In order. I can't choose furniture or paint until the ceilings are back up, and we can't put the floor in before then. Send this part of the list to the foreman and ask him when he can get this done."
Damn. For a person who can't make money and can't see the future, she's pretty good at sorting out what needs to be done right now.
*EDIT*
In Socionics terms, I'm 4D Ne, which can lead me to see every option out there. ESI's PoLR is Ne, and they hate it. So one of ESI's roles in the Duality is to reduce the randomness that the LIE sees, and since the LIE doesn't value the randomness, he is merely good at it, he can discard it without a second thought.
Similarly, ESIs have 4D Si, whichi is LIE's PoLR. I've read accounts of ESI-LIE Duality in which the LIE ignores his health and works like crazy until the ESI tells him to stop for the sake of his health.
Seems to be a good match.
how come she can't choose furniture or paint until the ceilings are back up?Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalinoche buenanoche
I think she has a hard time imagining things that she can't actually see, but I could be wrong. Certainly, when we were working together this summer, she'd rearrange a room, and then a few days later, she'd rearrange it again, after she had a chance to experience it and then think about it for a while.
This is actually in the ESI handbook. "If you are LIE, be prepared to help ESI move the furniture every once in a while."
Really, with most people, I can use what I observe about them to do a simulation and get inside their heads. My purpose in this is to better anticipate what they are going to do and to figure out what I can expect from them. With her, I can't do this. She seems to be coming from a very, very different place, and my brain doesn't bend that way.
I probably will never really understand ESIs, and I doubt if they can really understand me. She already told me that people like me are why the world is so fucked up, so I assume she has no desire to better understand me.
But I find that, despite not being able to truly understand each other, Duals are invariably able to provide the other person with exactly the kind of help they need.
do you use any kind of mockups?Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalinoche buenanoche
No, not at all. She's flying completely by the seat of her pants.
For the record, last night, I showed her my building with the machines in it and she asked me what that thing was against one wall, and I told her it was a twelve-foot optical table that I didn't have room for when I laid the place out, and she suggested putting it down the middle of one of the big rooms, which might actually work.
I told her that when I laid the place out, I made a scale model on a sheet of paper with little cutouts for the machines (because it's easier to move a cutout around than a 13,000 lb machine) and she lit up and said that was a great idea!
So she's an Artist, not an Engineer. I value that part of her.
There is software which can simulate buildings and interiors, and I have a number of CAD programs and renderers (for presentations) which could do this, but it takes a huge amount of time to build these models in CAD. I find it much easier and faster to just find someone with a good eye.
Her taste and mine coincide really well. My only complaint is that she tries to save money when she doesn't have to on this project.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
lol
have you told her that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalinoche buenanoche
Yes, but I'm not sure what she thought of that. She is trying to do what she thinks is best for me, and she sees that sometimes I have a lot of cash available and sometimes I have almost none. I should ask her what she has concluded from that.
I think she's naturally frugal, which I like, actually. I had an LSI GF whom I did not trust with my credit card, but the ESI, I do.
I do think she's getting more comfortable with the idea that I will be able to come up with the money when it is needed, or soon thereafter.
IDK. From my perspective, information goes into her, she remembers everything, and concrete actions come out. She doesn't seem to share her thoughts much, other than to say she's excited about something, or she doesn't like something else.
This interior decorator/artist ESI that I've been working with to redecorate my house in the city knows that I also have a house on five acres in the country that I almost never use, so she asked me if she could use it this weekend, probably to entertain someone, IDK. I told her, Sure, because I know she's responsible and won't burn the place down, and also because she'll clean up after herself.
She asked me why I don't live there, since the place is paid for and pretty private. It's surrounded by a small grassy field but the property is half-wooded and is next to a little lake.
I told her that the guy I bought it from was a single guy who died there, and I don't want to live my life the way he lived his.
She laughed and said "Yeah, you don't want to be a lonely old man living alone."
WTF? Aren't ESIs supposed to have a modicum of ethical sensitivity?
Maybe not.
Fi =/= they always make you feel goodQuote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
Especially ESIs lol. Sorry.
Maybe she just interpreted things as-is, and didn't think anything of it? I myself am not sure why this seems insensitive to you, tbh. To me it seems like repeating the same thing you just said, but in different words. Of course, I don't have all the context, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
That's true sometimes, but it generally pertains more to emotional/factual realness than being uncaring. If there's not something to be real with someone about, there's no reason to just blatantly disregard someone's feelings, especially when it's someone you care about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Minde
Typology aside for a moment, is she the kind of person who will just accept raw/real truths without much strain involved? Able to face harsher realities and such in life without them bringing her down?Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noir
It's really hard for me to step into her mind in order to see things from her perspective.
From my perspective, I'm trying pretty hard to find a compatible ESI who isn't inappropriately younger, as she is, so I won't be a lonely old man, and unfortunately, she's the best psychological and social match I've met so far.
From her perspective, she's got every reason in the world to keep me interested in her because she materially benefits from me. (I pay her for her work.) So she might be inclined to drop these hints every once in a while that without her, I'd be all alone. Let me add that she doesn't like my previous ESI GF, and while that woman was pretty good, she did have attachment issues which were similar to my SLI ex-wife, and I don't wish to repeat a relationship like that again. (Secure with Avoidant).
I have a lot of experience with women who don't admit to themselves the real reasons why they do the things they do (when observation of their actions points to only one thing) and it wouldn't surprise me if she's trying to preserve her position with me while not actually being a GF. In other words, give advice, keep the guy single, but point out that he hates being single.
However, if I take a purely logical and dispassionate approach to what she's said and what she does, I could see her actions as being genuinely helpful. I need to disregard any doubts about her motives to arrive at that conclusion, though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noir
I really can't judge her abilities in this area. She seems pretty tough on the outside, but she has or had a lot of anxiety which she thinks she hides but which is easy for me to see. (My presence seems to calm her down.) I've idly said things to her in the past which set her off for a day, but she just got mad, she didn't try to confront me about me being an asshole to the world.
On the other hand, she tells me straight out what she sees in me (mostly bad) and has never complimented me (to say I'm smart or bold) but she has said that she likes doing things with me. That might be the closest she can get to giving compliments.
In a larger sense, regarding her ability to face harsh realities, I, personally, think that she feels like an outcast who has been rejected for being who she is. I got this same sense from my last ESI GF. The ESI Artist seems to translate this subjective feeling into her opposition to racism and sexism so she can externalize it and have a reason to fight back against people who reject her.
When I first started telling her that she was acting like standard descriptions of ESIs, she absolutely hated it. She wants to be free to be anyone she wants, while ignoring the fact that she has opposable thumbs. But gradually, as our association progressed and she realized that the ESI traits that I was calling her out on are actually things that I like and need (which is something I tell her every time we're together), she has come to look on this stuff more favorably. Or, at least, with less suspicion.
Notice here, though, her interest was not in validating the truth of some obscure Russian cult's beliefs, but rather in finding someone who accepts her for the person that she is.
I think that it must be difficult for an ESI, who is the moral arbiter of the socion and who speaks out when they see transgressions, to deal with the natural reaction that most people have to being called out. It must feel like unending rejection. So finding someone who actually needs what she produces must be revelatory to her.
That's a bit of a potential red flag…is she a pessimistic person overall? Is this her pattern in life, or does it seem more specific to you guys' relationship?Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
I meant something more along the lines of...when there is an ugly truth in life, does she accept it, being honest with herself? If someone is that way, they tend to readily and easily admit to their own shortcomings. They're aware of their own flaws and they don't beat themselves up over them, they admit it when they're wrong and take responsibility. In a hypothetical scenario that someone was cheating on them, they'd rather know than stay unaware just to avoid the pain. These kinds of people also don't tend to agonize over these truths too much (not that they aren't at times hurt by them), and that is part of why they're able to accept them more easily than some other people in the world. (Some do agonize over it a bit more but still accept everything easily, but that's less common, and usually those kinds of people demonstrate what can almost seem like emotional masochism in other areas also.)Quote:
In a larger sense, regarding her ability to face harsh realities, I, personally, think that she feels like an outcast who has been rejected for being who she is. I got this same sense from my last ESI GF. The ESI Artist seems to translate this subjective feeling into her opposition to racism and sexism so she can externalize it and have a reason to fight back against people who reject her.
I'd say that she's a negativist, in the sense that she sees every glass as being half-empty and every person as potentially a problem. I don't think I'd call her a pessimist, though. She seems pretty excited to be going into social work, and often she's said that she's excited to start working (each day) with me. So she does look forward to things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noir
Yes, she seems to be fine with accepting ugly truths.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noir
She told me that her last GF brought up the idea of being in a threesome, which she immediately hated but then cautiously accepted and then found that she couldn't stand it and saw it as cheating and left her because of that. She was amazingly hurt and pissed off at her ex-GF for a while, but they had been together for a couple years and the woman was probably either an LSI or an IEE, I couldn't tell which from a picture, so she was heading into the wind in that relationship anyway.
I'm not sure what her thought process was in reviewing that relationship, but I think it was mostly "the other person did wrong", rather than "we just weren't meant for each other, but we'd be great with other people".
I see. So, probably just someone who should try to make a point to acknowledge the positives in others more, rather than a red flag. We all have things we could improve in. Does it ever actually bother you that she points out mostly negative things? I could see it having the potential to cause someone to feel “never good enough” for her or something, if she takes it too far.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
One more question I need answered before I can share what I'm thinking — why exactly did her comment seem insensitive to you? Was it something to do with it being a real possibility for you to live a life like that guy's? Was it her blunt phrasing? Something else?Quote:
Yes, she seems to be fine with accepting ugly truths.
She told me that her last GF brought up the idea of being in a threesome, which she immediately hated but then cautiously accepted and then found that she couldn't stand it and saw it as cheating and left her because of that. She was amazingly hurt and pissed off at her ex-GF for a while, but they had been together for a couple years and the woman was probably either an LSI or an IEE, I couldn't tell which from a picture, so she was heading into the wind in that relationship anyway.
I'm not sure what her thought process was in reviewing that relationship, but I think it was mostly "the other person did wrong", rather than "we just weren't meant for each other, but we'd be great with other people".
Honestly, I never noticed her lack of praise until I started thinking about it in response to your question. I think that I get most of my positives from just seeing her be happy around me. I don't need her to tell me I'm great, because she's showing it by just showing up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noir
And her criticisms are actually helpful because they are things which I didn't notice but which can be either fixed or worked around with proper action. They don't bother me at all.
All my life, I've known that I'm impervious to most people's criticism. I thought that was due to being an LIE whose plans often step on other people's toes and if the plan is to go forward, you have to expect some criticism and not be swayed by it, and that might be a side benefit, but the basic reason might be that I'm a Dual to ESIs.
I do have a real fear of being alone for the rest of my life. It's not as great a fear as spending my life with the wrong person, but it's there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noir
I thought her comment was insensitive because she should be able to see that I'm working on the problem and she doesn't need to point it out, but then, I'm discovering by working with other ESIs that their priorities are immediate and mine are more future-convoluted.
It also made me wonder why she would say something so insensitive, and that led me to suspect that her motives might be selfish.
The bolded — is that something you tend to think about those who show up around you, or are you saying that because you know how she personally expresses things?Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
That's good, then.Quote:
And her criticisms are actually helpful because they are things which I didn't notice but which can be either fixed or worked around with proper action. They don't bother me at all.
Is that true of things like false accusations (whether they're based on lies or assumptions) also? Especially in an environment where there may be social repercussions. If so, why do you think those don't get under your skin?Quote:
All my life, I've known that I'm impervious to most people's criticism.
Is she aware of that?Quote:
I do have a real fear of being alone for the rest of my life. It's not as great a fear as spending my life with the wrong person, but it's there.
I see. I'm a bit confused, tbh. I was under the impression that you stated why you didn't want to go live there, and then she pretty much did the equivalent of replying, "Yeah, you definitely don't want that."Quote:
I thought her comment was insensitive because she should be able to see that I'm working on the problem and she doesn't need to point it out
Her motives in having involvement with you, you mean?Quote:
It also made me wonder why she would say something so insensitive, and that led me to suspect that her motives might be selfish.
I believe that actions speak louder than words. People can promise to show up, but not everyone does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noir
False accusations usually don't bother me at all. I just consider the source. If their opinion matters to me, then I'll try to change their mind. If it doesn't, then I ignore them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noir
If I'm accused of something ludicrous, then I just let everyone see their accusation, and most people will be able to make up their own minds about what is what. If they can't, then they are morons and don't matter.
I don't know why criticism doesn't bother me. Maybe because I've thought out why I do what I do and I'm OK with that, the good and the bad parts, so they aren't telling me anything that I haven't already thought about. Maybe because I have 1D Fi and I have trouble setting values on anything, including other people and their opinions.
What I will say is that I try to short-circuit criticism if I think it's going to inconvenience me or if it will make my goals harder to achieve. I can be positively political then.
Probably, but she hasn't adjusted all her opinions to my facts yet. For example, I think she assumes that the reason I like her is because I want to have sex with her (she does have an objectively great body), when in truth, I like her because of the way she makes me feel and because of her real assistance. If she wanted to have kids, then I'd want to have sex with her. Lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noir
Her reply wasn't exactly the equivalent of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noir
Yes. I could be reading something into her actions which isn't there, though. More data is needed. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Noir
ESI (Me) / LIE (Boyfriend)
LIE: Thanks for being so understanding. You're a goddess.
ESI: Yes, now kneel before me.
LIE: Yes, my queen.
This totally happened, and I didn't completely warp it into something way different than what actually took place. I swear. He is not going to break up with me when he reads this.