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@MrsTortilla
I witnessed the Fi or rather information ignoring by these two types yesterday that ended up with the ESE screaming in a very loud voice at the ESI. The conversation was so silly and yet so :confused2: confusing. I couldn’t figure out where exactly the miscommunication was in. What special word was said.
Anyone have any dialogue they can share?
Once my sister in law and I were going to make sweet potato fries for the first time in a deep fryer. We were at my ESE mother in law’s house for a family get together. She kept giving us/me especially advice about it but I kept responding things like, Thanks but we actually are going to do it a certain way, etc. She got frustrated feeling like her advice was being ignored (and yeah it kind of was), and angrily yelled at me how she guessed she was just some bitch who didn’t know anything (I was shocked at her language in the setting)! Then she took out sweet potatoes and started chopping them into small non-fry-like pieces. Ugh!!!!
I'm talking/flirting with a female SEE who works in a small restaurant with her male ESE boss. I know she wanted to work for this guy because he seemed just like her (she's pretty young) and validation is always nice. But I'm waiting for something like the above to happen. I think it's inevitable.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsTortilla
I cannot stand when people are like this. Let me do it the way I'm going to do it and don't stand over my shoulder. I'll ask for help if I need it. Some things you can't really be incompetent about and there are more than one way to do those kinds of things.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsTortilla
I have also witnessed numerous examples of these two types arguing hotly over what appeared to be very minor issues. The main points of contention revolved around the ESI's seeming 'faulty' memory and detached, aloof nature, and the ESE's apparent need to be in control and to correct other's recollections. :content:
a.k.a. I/O
This is my relationship with my mother-in-law. It’s just odd because when there are discrepancies of memory I feel the same about her, i.e. she completely forgot things she promised or else asked me something, didn’t listen to my answer, and then responded bizarrely (reflecting the fact that she wasn’t listening). She loves to be in control and I hate being controlled especially by someone I consider not too bright (not a type thing).Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebelondeck
Once she was so overbearing I couldn’t take it anymore and snapped at her pointedly and then refused contact for days. Wouldn’t answer her calls, etc. She frantically tried to get in touch and when we eventually spoke she apologized and said she realized she used to treat her sister the same way. Her sister looked like a Filatova ESI so go figure!
Let me remember the two conversations and how it went down
ESI: I don’t know about getting Botox for my headache. They are going to inject it in my scalp all the way around and not just one place
ESE: they are not going to inject it on your forehead
ESI: then where are they going to inject it?
ESE: along your hair line
ESI: well the hair line is right here on the forehead.
ESE: it’s not YOUR FOREHEAD. Screams like bloody murder
ESI: you don’t have to scream at me. I’m just concerned
ESE: you have been over this many times. It’s not your forehead.
Me calm down! She’s concerned about the shots. I don’t think she wants them. Nana... don’t do something that you are uncomfortable with. Period.
Yes, I'm quite aware of the ESI's innate ability to isolate themselves and use it as a sort of punishment. I've had relationships fail with ESIs because I understood the coldness and could outlast them.......:content:Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsTortilla
a.k.a. I/O
So what's the remedy for them isolating themselves?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebelondeck
ESE: I’m going to get my eyebrows tattooed.
ESI: it looks like they grew in a lot
ESE: they are not going to grow in these posts. It’s been a long time.
ESI: starts to touch and smooth out the sister’s eyebrows very gently. Jokes gently about eyebrows and how hair grow out
ESE: they are not going to grow any more. Screams I’M TELLING YOU that’s not how my eyebrows are.
Me why are you screaming? Geese she’s only looking at your eyebrows.
ESE: I know my eyebrows. One of these days I’m just going to disappear. All these two want to do all day long is clean. I can’t stand this anymore
I thought I had superficial relationship with ESE due to not receiving the information said by each other than ignoring having deep conversations with one another but I have to say that ESI took the gold on keeping conversations with ESE short and short because who can stand the screaming?
I’m seriously beginning to think that what is actually going on is some energy exchange between them that we can not see but they sense with each other.
Show them their myopia and hope for the best because they have to come out using their own rationalization. If one tries to talk them out, one may dig a deeper hole. I've known a few who expected apologies for the argument itself even though they started it.....:content:Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
a.k.a. I/O
I used to waste time explaining myself to my ESE MIL because we constantly talk past one another but I have learned to let her do her thing. Now I kind of just agree with her advice or share very short comments or just nod at her. It’s a good development. Occasionally I’ve learned to purposefully ask her advice JUST to be nice. Having a less negative relationship with her is good for my marriage, but we were at odds for a long time. Funny too, my father in law used to shake his head and say, you guys have so much in common, I wish you two could see it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beautiful sky
I love this sorry. It’s just so funny. I love how the ESE had to throw in a jab about cleaning at the end.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beautiful sky
That’s the condensed version because I cannot remember every word but she went on a long nagging accusatory response in the manner of “why don’t you clean this? Why don’t you sweep this? Why don’t you do the laundry every day” and my aunt said “no leave your dirty underwear to rot for an entire week before you do it” it was funnyQuote:
Originally Posted by MrsTortilla
I forgot to mention that I find this behaviour odd for ESEs unless they're distracted by something else that's considered more important; they're susceptible to tunnel vision like all Ejs, and Ips to a lesser extent. However, they're usually engaged and focused so there's something else at play beyond type. Some people pretend they didn't hear, for effect, but I haven't witnessed an ESE doing this; they tend to like quoting someone's exact words in order to win an arguement. Now, age could be a factor.....:content:Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsTortilla
a.k.a. I/O
1) She’s probably not very interested in what I have to say.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebelondeck
2) She has been pre menopausal/menopausal during the time I’ve known her and memory can be affected.
ESE are loud
base Fe, good physical state...
> Anyone have any dialogue they can share?
> I witnessed the Fi or rather information ignoring by these two types
I saw EIE <-> ESI querrels on forums.
Probably problems appear when they argue logically to each other. Opponents prefered logics relates to weak and nonvalued functions of the both, so the both notice that (annoying bs) but can do nothing better (as it's weak) than to switch to higher emotions to press the opponent. :)
Also as I remember my ESE mother has irrational antipathy to that ESI singer. :) I doubt she may explain why. While they never even talked in weak regions what would worsen all.
I get along with them :content: I guess conflicts rarely but usually I think we understand each other well. My mom is one, one of my friends is probably one...I'm sure I've met a few who were kind of snobby and standoffish bitchy though
My ESFj best friend has been with an ISFj guy for a while now. The concept of unstable psychological distance in Extinguishment never really made sense to me because I’ve never had a reason to get very close to an ENFj; but it’s very obvious that it is causing this pair trouble finding stability in their relationship. It’s exhausting just watching them miss each other’s meaning in everything. They think they understand each other well, but when outside problems arise the relationship just falls to pieces. They wanted to marry, but the ISFj has now gotten cold feet because he realized they are unable to support each other the way he initially thought they could.
This sort of situation can get ugly as @MrsTortilla said in her post with her mother-in-law. Ethical types can quarrel over ethical issues as easily as Logical types quarrel over logical issues.
ESEs tend to be loud emotive and they can seem brash and obnoxious to some ESIs. ESEs can put tremendous pressure on people to behave a certain way without really realizing it, but the ESI realizes it very acutely and doesn't appreciate it.
I think extinguishment can be worse than conflict since it's a much more apparent tug of war rather than a comedy of errors which are normally what conflict relationships look like.
The extinguishment issues are not quite as deep as the conflicting ones, which by the way doesn't comprise the worst relationship. Extinguishment partners can often work together without having to have third-party supervision although they'll argue over process. The comedy of errors of which you speak is simply an indication that conflicting types usually have divergent priorities, goals, approaches and measures of success. People who can't work on a project alone together had better have amazing sex - but no children.Quote:
Originally Posted by ImOutThere
a.k.a. I/O
All of that doesn't sound like extinguishment, extinguishment sounds like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUzoJrfJQBw
This. Quoting for posterity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eudaimonia
I need data on LII-ESE interactions, I've scarcely observed them together. I wonder how starting a thread on LII-ESE conversations would go over in the Alpha quadra section - hm.
@wonderwoman, I've never seen an LII-ESE dual pair, either, and I know a bunch of LIIs and five or six ESEs. I know one LII who was living with his ESE GF, but she left him. He claims to now be with a second ESE, but I haven't met her.Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderwoman
My LII sister was with an EIE for a few years, but she said he was bad in bed. She went through a few men, then married an LSE, whom she said is great in bed but emotionally deficient.
I talked to another female LII about finding a Dual, and she said that Duality sounded like a bad idea, because when (she said When, not If) they broke up, she'd feel really bad, and she preferred being with a guy whom she could dump without much pain.
I do know a couple LII-LII pairs, and one ESE-ESE pair, but the pairing of these LII-ESE Duals seems to be extremely rare, in my experience.
Here is a description by Stratiyevskaya, but it seems pretty sparse.
http://socionika-forever.blogspot.com/2007/11/1.html
.Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderwoman
Doooo iiiiiiiiiitttttt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderwoman
I have only seen this once, personally. It was an exchange of ideas, which really was the ESE asking more about the LIIs theories. I have seen alpha NTs get very fussy about certain things like quality of food, neatness of appearance, diet, etc. I'm sure alpha SFs would care to talk to them about these things ad infinitum.
I'm glad someone will talk to them about it, I just hope they don't do it with me :lol:.
In trying to understand ESEs better (my mother is one) I'm shifting from focusing on their Fe (and Se demo, and Ni PoLR...) to emphasizing valued Ti. Instead of emphasizing our difference in Fe or Fi valuation, I'm orienting to see Ti as a ji preference, which may not be explicit/obvious to me in her behaviors, but could explain some of her behaviors that vex me. I'm also reflecting a little bit on my observations of LIIs, despite not being especially close with any. I think they can give off what someone once described as an 'Fe smile', and they have patiently listened to me, before providing their analysis of a situation. I can see how ESE would appreciate that, consistently.
I think that my Ne PoLR must be a real bummer to my mother, haha. She responds *extremely* well (takes on a more lighthearted, relaxed but also excited manner) when I pass on Ne insights from my Delta NF friends to her. She sniffed some Ne (and Ti) in a project I was working on last month and wanted me to share some content with her but I was already thoroughly overwhelmed by taking the tasks on and had to focus. It's very overwhelming for me when I have to pass on Ne-related information to someone else, even when they ask innocently. Sigh
On the upside, she and I can 'catch' and help each other in small, or occasionally big ways with our respective PoLRs, which is nice.
ESI and ESE is Extinguishment. You may find the other person interesting because they have a very different perspective on the things that you both are good at (Feeling, Thinking, Intuition, or Sensing), and you can both work together and tackle and solve a problem involving your dominant functions, but you should never try to dive deeply enough into the other person to get to know them, because they don't see anything the way you do.
You'll just find that you disagree on everything and then you start to piss each other off.
I hired an ESE to do stonework on my house, and I hired an ESI to do interior decoration, and after interacting with each other for a very short time, they stayed far away from each other.
I later told the ESI that the ESE has very good taste in building decoration, and she agreed, but she said she hated his particular choices for the house. She said they were objectively good, but they were not what she would have chosen. Not at all.
To me, that sounds like knowing that a lot of people would think that a particular woman was beautiful, but you don't.
For the record, I have an LII Extinguishment sister. I love her and admire and respect her, but we've never been able to have a conversation that lasted more then ten minutes, because then we start to see that we're nothing alike, and it becomes painful.
Yes. The thing I most admired about my mom for a long time was how people were drawn to her. As an introvert and a bit of a loner (who was told by different people growing up that I needed to make more friends) I certainly didn't have that going for myself. As I get older and get some healthy space and perspective from the relationship, I see that I do not especially enjoy her specific personality close-up / as a primary relationship. I still appreciate how she's like a social icon across her many circles of friends and that she is a caring mother, and wife, although as my mother she can't really give me high-quality pragmatic support and she doesn't really understand my emotional needs (sort of does, but maybe thinks I'm too introspective, and/or sensitive). :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
Here is a description of the interactions between ESI and ESE, by Stratiyevskay, an ESI herself: https://socionika-forever.blogspot.c...og-post04.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by wonderwoman
You can open it in Chrome and use the "Translate this page" button at the top right side of the browser to convert it to English.
In a nutshell, she says that Hugos (ESEs) love to enjoy life and don't like to work. I completely agree with that assessment, for the record.
The declarativeness of Hugo's ethics of emotions (-CHE1) in accordance with the integrating properties of his declarative model, which determines the psychological sign of declarativeness, is manifested:
- in the desire to extract joy from everything and to attach others to it, inviting everyone to laugh at what is funny to him;
- in an effort to join someone else's fun and become its focus.
- in an effort to create around themselves an atmosphere of universal fun, attracting to itself and many other accompanying pleasures.
- in the accumulation of information that can cheer up - jokes, jokes, funny stories and practical jokes
- in the accumulation of material resources and the acquisition of everything necessary for organizing entertainment events and equipping the accompanying entertainment establishments.
And, of course, because Strat is Strat, things go downhill from there fast.
Trust me, I can relate on a literal level to ESI-ESE differences in decoration taste. Lol. And that's kind of cute and painfully sweet / accepting of what is / adaptive in the dynamic with your LII sister, @Adam Strange. Thinking about it, I've been party to ILI-ILE extinguishment conversations, and the awkwardness can be palpable. ILI won't give a single inch to ILE's Fe attempts and suspects that ILE's questions "aren't coming from a genuine place" so doesn't feel inclined to engage. ILE seems fairly unperturbed overall but that's consistent with their general interpersonal vibe.
Thanks for the link and on-point excerpt, :D looking forward to digging in!
I'm gaining more understanding, but still feel in the dark on alternative (surprise! not, lol) ways to respond to our dynamic that are constructive. We so easily generate a low level of friction in just exchanging simple stories
But I'm so disinclined to, like, lose face by thanking her for a suggestion that I don't want... or laughing at something that I find VERY not funny (I spoke up about that one, and she's on board. 'that was insensitive') it's tough and I acknowledged that I got defensive after saying it's exhausting to have to defend the way i'm approaching a (surprise!) possible socializing opportunity, that to her it's a no-brainer to go for! *facepalm
@wonderwoman, the way I approach my Extinguishment/Contrary partners is with a respect for their viewpoints and a minimum exchange of personal information. I take it as a given that we are not going to agree on how we view anything that has a value-judgement attached to it, so I try to stick to the simplest facts and never cross into motives or advice.Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderwoman
I try to keep the conversation topics focused on simple facts only. I can easily respect them because I think that they see certain things much more clearly than I do, but I don't dwell on those topics; I just listen to what they say and agree. And I never try to socialize with them. Too many opportunities for things to go wrong.
Why get involved with the worst parts of the interaction when you can stick to the best parts?
And the "worst parts" is where the interaction naturally goes. With no shared values, you can't really trust the other person without a great deal of effort.
I have a business that I started last year with an Extinguishment partner. When we were signing the papers, I told him "We're going to have to listen to each other very closely and be absolutely clear about everything, so we can prevent misunderstandings, if this is going to work."
He goes, "Oh, yeah. Of course, ha ha, no problem, everything will be fine."
One year later, we're making lots of money but when we're in the same room together, we're wondering if we can kill the other person with a coffee mug or a coat hanger.
Each says, "Because it feels like the other person is trying to sabotage me, even though I, myself, am working like a dog to make this successful."
Post Script.
I just re-read your post and I see that you are trying to engage with her on a social level by exchanging stories (value judgements! No no no.) and trying to find common ground.
That is a huge mistake. You don't have common values in anything. The more you interact this way, the more you see each other for the aliens that you are to each other.
Instead, stick to cookie recipes and an appreciation of her taste in whatever things you can honestly appreciate, and save the outpourings of your heart or assertions of your own style or feelings for a Gamma.
@Adam Strange, you're right. Thing is, the shift is going to take time. She takes the lead with telling all those stories lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
We'll see. I'm trying to go slowly because I'm still afraid of hurting her by pulling back/away. *shrug/confused face. We've been pretty close for a long time, so try to picture that. I appreciate your input and (again, lol) we'll see how things go! Right now, the in-person time is heightened due to the holidays.
:) / *upside-down smiley* :)
we do regard each other as aliens but like close ones* b/c 'FAMILY'. or something. idk!!!! this (the desire to make a change i'm writing about) is the most i've really questioned it -- been giving it thought and subtly making shifts for the last several months, and trying to brainstorm on what the next 'stage' of change is
tonight she discharged the tension she felt at my alienness by saying i'm probably the biggest 'processor' she's ever met of anyone in her whole life. lol. (after i was like yes, i do laundry based on the instructions for the item...)
I do not have smooth, fluid, capable, dexterous LII capabilities, that's for sure XD
she did mention wanting to share a cookie recipe with me tho XD i said yes i'd like to see it ;)
*there's this underlying current of like we HAVE to be close. maybe something to do with being the two SFs in a nuclear family with two NTs, too. her own mom is an SEI and contrasting their mother-daughter relationship to ours, she said to me some of the same words that strat quotes lol about 'why don't you share more with me?????? i told my mom EVERYTHING!' (this was years ago...)
**how do y'all do the 'spoiler' text box?
Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderwoman
Yes, having an Extinguishment partner as a parent or a daughter would be very, very difficult. I have one as a sister, and while I love her dearly and she knows that, we do not interact much at all. Like, maybe for a ten minute conversation every year. Or two years. Lol.
The best that I can do is to let her know that I love her, and leave her alone. Because my interacting with her for a long time makes things worse.
If I'm planning to be around my LII sister, I try to have a third person there who can more happily interact with her, so I don't have to say anything. Really.
I'm not sure how you can use this example with your mother. I agree that two NTs have it easier than two SFs.
Oh, and my mother, who is LSE, always commented, every single time my LII sister was around or even when her name was mentioned, "Why doesn't she come to see me more often?"
Well, mom, it's because you screwed her over so much when she was a kid, and didn't stop when she grew up. Constant criticism is corrosive.
@wonderwoman, you can put a spoiler in your posts by typing, in linear sequence the next three lines on one line, without spaces:Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderwoman
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Quoting Strat:Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
"Compared to all other quadras - the quadras of reasoning (alpha) and decisive (beta) subjectivists and reasoning objectivists (delta), in the gamma quadra - the quadra of decisive democrats-objectivists (businessmen), conversations are given the last place. And least of all, conversations are valued in the dyad of rationalists: ESI, Dreiser - LIE, Jack. And if Jack, by the nature of his business activity, still allows himself to be talkative (to persuade someone, to persuade something), then the Dreiser in the gamma-quadra turns out to be the least talkative and, therefore, is the least talkative in the whole socion. Problematic intuition of potential opportunities(+ CHI4) makes him fear the consequences of his words: "The word is not a sparrow ...", "The word is silver, silence is gold" - these and other sayings from decisive quadras are adopted by Dreiser, trying not to waste words in vain.
But this does not prevent him from being extremely verbose when it comes to protecting his EGO-programmatic interests - protecting moral and ethical norms of behavior."
I'm not sure empirically (or theoretically?) how true that is about conversations are least valued between LIE and ESI... interesting. Some have said that this dual pair can come across as robotic, which is interesting. Anyway, I felt SUPER seen by Strat's positing of ESIs as the least talkative in the socion. When I'm scrolling through Twitter and I see people I don't know announcing threads, I think to myself, ESIs are probably the least likely people to share their thoughts in public twitter threads, haha
And, being an ESI herself, she also gets that we can be EXTREMELY verbose "when it comes to protecting [our] EGO-programmatic interests" -- oh yeah. Anyway, just quoting these bits for posterity :) (things on the ESI-ESE front are going fairly well in my world, lately! :))
Hi @wonderwoman, it might be because of the ESI-LIE duality interaction, but my experience with ESIs is that you guys have a whole lot going on underneath the surface and that the conversations are quite good. Especially when you can engage in a topic that interests you, though I think that this applies to everyone, right? ;)
if my experiences in the last month or so are any indication, one really can get pretty far with an ESE in terms of satisfying their desire for contact (with their ESI daughter) by focusing text exchanges on upbeat, cheerful recipe exchanges / recommendations and brief recountings of cooking/baking results. Probably coming more easily right now as we still come out of the holidays, but it's a good trend at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
I learned over the holidays that my ESE mom and her SEI mom tell each other over text (in their Words with Friends game... so cute) WHAT THEY HAD FOR DINNER THAT NIGHT -- EVERY NIGHT. I was thinking in that moment, "Gosh i'm grateful they don't expect that level/form of exchange with me XD". Pretty sweet to see them interact like that, though. We spent Christmas at my SEI grandma's house and it was fascinating to see my ESE mom pretty in her element there. Quite different from the vibe of the home she shares with her Gamma NT husband, haha.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eudaimonia
@wonderwoman, what's Words with Friends?
Yes, I've had similar experiences. When I'm caught in the middle of this kind of conversation I have nothing to say and I just want it to end or leave. A lot of office small talk with alpha SF coworkers can be like this too.Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderwoman
@Armitage, oh, right, context ;) it's an online game that you can play with contacts or strangers, from various parts of the world, on your phone or tablet. (maybe web browser too, i stopped playing years ago.) it's essentially online Scrabble* with another person, as i understand it. you can have more than one game going with the same person, and games with others; i think my SEI grandma had 23 active games over christmas. there are spinoff / similar versions found in other applications, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Armitage
*if you're not familiar with Scrabble, it's a board game where each player draws (and redraws) a small number of tiles that are letters from the alphabet, and uses them to form words on the playing board, and the harder-to-use letters carry higher point values. ;) of course, the design/layout of the playing board and the requirement for a new word to be contiguous in some way with an existing played word makes the game challenging.
**You can chat with your fellow player as a feature of each game. This is where my mom and grandma tell each other their evening meal; they don't spell it out in words played, to clarify! ;)
Perhaps you could actually dare them to spell out their dinners in-game from now on. That'll sure advance the challenge for them. :P It might also be that you'll start having a lot of Chinese dishes from then on, like xiaodainxin. ;)
Indeed they might actually enjoy the Ne aspect... XD? Though it seems mixed with Te too haha. ;)