Quote:
The way you describe how you are seems more 9 to me. I'm not saying you're a 9, but have you looked at sx 9 if you have a problem with sx 4 descriptions? They can be confused with 4s. I don't want to take this away from andreasdevig's thread, and a lot of this discussion about sx 4 is doing that. I did find it interesting and couldn't help myself.
And yeah, no, I don't think I am a 9. One of the reasons I was avoiding responding is because I am not fond of attacks/confrontations. Not your fault, you are being yourself, but I don't want to be run over, and with what I am saying - a couple times at least - twisted. To me it feels like being forced into accepting something I don't actually. Like I said before, there is no need to force yourself to fit into whatever description; it should fit comfortably, otherwise just look at what does make sense if the whole thing clearly doesn't.
Of course, feel free to examine core 9 for me, lol, but I think people who know me would probably agree with SX and 4, but definitely not with 'SX 4' :P
Quote:
Yes, I agree that the 3 wing would bring out the narcissistic traits more. I don't agree that it doesn't make sense that you think Fi base can't have those feelings. Se is about action. You don't even have to act on those feelings as a 4 with Fi and Se PoLR. If you don't have those negative feelings, it would surprise me if one was a 4. A type that tends towards modesty is a 9, not a 4.
Of course I have 'negative feelings' lol. But I am not narcissistic, not even remotely so.
And no, I don't agree with your last statement...sounds like you are projecting the Beta quadra onto it. I don't like over-the-top things, at all, narcissism being one of them. Comes across as kitschy and unnatural and weird.
No offense, of course, but that's how I feel about it.
Quote:
Yes, that's true for 4s. The way you describe tying one self to another is more 9 though. 4s are more independent in their sense of self and seek to find the other who will redeem them from their flawed state. There's a hole of emptiness they are trying to fill. They aren't so much tied to their "special other half" as they idealize them. 9s merge, 4s long.
I am not sure if you are just reading things into it to make them sound different...and yeah I do have a 9 fix, so I am sure that's part of that, but it was a very general SX description, not really 9-ish. The last part was specifically 'SX 4' (the other two: '4' + 'SX').
Quote:
You take issue with Beatrice Chestnut's description but are there any other sx 4 descriptions you relate to? Surely there is one that resonated with you can speak to? They don't all paint a picture of an aggressive, angry type. The link I provided earlier by Riso Hudson isn't like that, for reference. I think it's probably the best one I've seen.
Here's one, though I am not entirely sure what they mean. I will just tell you my interpretation of it...
Quote:
SX 4: Double nudity, open hole, bruised and exposed
It's still over-the-top, but I was thinking about it, and wondering if this is what it meant...
"double nudity" in the sense of being vulnerable not just in the SX way, but in the sense of being wounded as well. I guess the rest of that description plays off of that.
Oh, so this IS the Riso-Hudson one. I don't entirely mind this one, will go through it bit by bit...
Quote:
Sexual Fours: Infatuation (Ichazo's "Competition")
Sexual Fours focus their envy and hypersensitivity in their intimate relationships. They are perhaps the most emotionally intense type of the Enneagram, which is both their gift and their potential downfall. They possess both a capacity and a desire for profound intimacy, and they derive tremendous insight into human nature through the ups and downs of their romantic lives.
Yeah, so, though I do relate to it, I have a couple of issues with this one:
1) I have had my own issues that I am hesitant to relate to the enneagram, because I have mostly lived in the 'unhealthy levels' for most of my life, and I don't think that's how most 4s are, of course. So would my intensity simply be a by-product of that unhealth, or actually 4? Probably both, but I don't want to muddy the waters, so I keep the issues I think don't have much to do with the enneagram, out of this entire topic.
2) It also makes it sound like SX 4s are the only ones who have a capacity for 'great intimacy,' or that maybe they are more capable, better at it...which doesn't make sense. Nor are they the most 'intense' necessarily. They can show their scars very early on in the ('mating') process, but I honestly think all SX types are very, very intense. In a good way :)
Quote:
They have a sultry, sullen quality that can be attractive and mysterious, or at times, off-putting to others. Sexual Fours pour their energy and attention into the object of their affection, often becoming infatuated or even obsessed, sometimes after only one meeting. Sexual chemistry triggers their powerful imaginations, leading them to create enormous expectations of potential partners.
Yeah, this is true.
Quote:
Sexual Fours tend to be drawn to people who possess qualities and talents that they believe they lack. They want to complete themselves by associating or merging with the valued other. But this almost never works, so they may also end up envying and resenting their romantic partner for unintentionally reminding them of what they feel they are missing. In any case, Sexual Fours go through tremendous shifts of feeling about their loved ones—everything from idolization to unbridled hatred. Generally speaking, this type is aware of these feelings, including the dark ones, and finds ways to express them, sometimes in self-destructive ways.
Yeah, the striked out one, I don't really understand. I don't compete with my partner. I don't compete, period. Lemme grab that Se PoLR description again...
Quote:
The second manifestation of our PoLR is a complete aversion to force, aggression, conflict, violence, competition, and the whole idea of bending people and situations to get what one wants. This is where you get the “overly sensitive” aspect of our personalities. If someone says something in a way that is remotely confrontational, we retreat. If someone really wants to argue, we fall silent. If people are fighting, we will either try to settle the disagreement, get up and leave, or both. We will not “intrude on others' space,” whether physically or psychologically. We are virtually incapable of making anyone do anything or refusing a request. No matter how badly we may want something, if you flatly refuse, we are likely to back down, at least after a short while. EIIs do not make things happen – we prefer to wait for them to happen or let someone else take the lead. In those rare occasions where we try to be forceful, we become extremely uncomfortable and vulnerable. It's terrifying. We want everyone to get along, to share their thoughts in an accepting and peaceful discourse. We want everyone to “win” and leave unscarred, and since that seldom happens in an Se environment, we avoid such environments.
I know I have used this several times now, but it is so me, I cannot help emphasizing it in context of what I am trying to explain. Someone like this ^ is not fond of any sort of meanness, competition, aggression - not just literal! It should be obvious that this is psychological too. Psychological aggression, force of any kind - even a little bit! Being mean or spiteful is part of 'competitiveness' and again this type of person will steer clear of that.
No matter what type you are on the enneagram, if you are Se PoLR, those things should be true of you.
As for 'unbridled hatred,' again I don't want to conflate my lower health levels, or my own unique struggles, with a personality type...so I wouldn't say 'unbridled.' Some hatred, sure. But it's like, it's kind of hard to not at least somewhat hate someone who make yourself vulnerable to in the SX way - which I mean, SX firsts do all the time, doesn't even have to be a romantic thing, it's just what they are like - and they hurt you. That hurts worse than anything else. So then, of course there would be some hatred. I dunno if that's 4 or if it's just...human.
I kind of like this one as well:
Quote:
Intimate Fours
• Intimate Fours love others in a deep way, and possess a sensitive, complex, poetic intelligence about matters of the heart
• This is a highly romantic subtype, visible in the realms of romantic poetry, the troubadour tradition and popular music about love, especially in the lyrics of confessional singers
Obviously, I am not literally a confessional singer or anything like that, but I get the archetype he is trying to create here, and I can see it.
• Often stay friends with ex-lovers
• A focus on aesthetics; some Intimate Fours are tasteful, flashy dressers
Absolutely not flashy. Never going to happen. Tasteful, yes.
• Can harbor a fantasy of perfect union, a redemptive love that will heal the wound of being an unwanted outsider
• Prone to jealousy and may be competitive in close relationships as well as generally; can feel like there is only so much love to go around
Striking out that part, everything else is true for me.
• Want to be Number One in their beloved’s heart or the only person their partner has ever loved; could be jealous of their partner’s past relationships
• A stronger connection to Two
I can see that I guess, but a couple of these might just be things people can project whatever they want, onto. Including this one.
• May be surprised to discover that their beloved has different needs; they assume mutuality of purpose and are unprepared to negotiate
Lol, I don't understand this. "Might be SURPRISED their beloved has different needs" - why would anybody be surprised by that, haha?
• Also prone to professional envy and try to best others at work
Absolutely not.
• May be unable to enjoy their successes without demeaning the achievements of others
Absolutely not.
• Intimate Fours can resemble Eights just as romantic Intimate Eights can resemble Fours
Nope, not really.
• Can believe that without someone to love they are nothing and life is not worth living
• When in love, images of their partner fill the Four’s awareness and attention. The beloved is a muse, necessary to connect Fours to their own life force
• May take no responsibility for their life until Mr. or Ms. Right comes along
• There can be a willful immaturity to this stance, a stubborn refusal to face facts no matter what the practical costs
Sounds more like SP last, though.
• Can be love addicts who lack the memory of being loved and believe they are condemned to search the world for something or someone to fill them up
• Some Intimate Fours act markedly seductive to stave off being rejected
nope
• May engineer rejection by picking unavailable or inappropriate people to become infatuated with
...yes.
• A few have ambiguous, confused or exaggerated sexual identities or a chronic identity crisis around their sexuality
Not really. Doesn't sound specific to a type, anyway...
Sources for SX 4 descriptions:
The enneagram universe
Riso and Hudson
Tom Condon