What would an LIE with a strong Ni subtype look like? (ENTj-Ni identification)

Deleted.

I know a guy whom I type as LIE-1Ni, and he is a fairly good leader/director, not that ambitious, tall, thin, shaves his head, very frequently asks other people to help him with doing mundane tasks (low Se), doesn’t tell people what to do directly but will ask for their help when he wants to start a project, doesn’t seem to seek power over people, likes to work with an LSE, let’s his wife rule his life, is good with writing reports and talking with vendors.
He is much less assertive than I am, and keeps everything on an impersonal level.
I think that in many ways, he is better suited to running an established company than I am, although he almost certainly could not start a company.
He is more cerebral than I am and less able to rally the troops or inspire people to either follow him or give him work.
He has the sexually non-PC LIE sense of humor.
Basically, a very nice, competent guy.

"I was ready to play. I was excited to play. Once the game started, it became the norm. It became reading defensive situations. You know, positioning of my teammates. Just overall strategy and tactics. And it felt good to get back to that."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_tYXFbgjZk

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Originally Posted by FarDraft

I'll watch this in full when I get the chance. But for now, what's your main point? That LIE with strong Ni prefer to look at the big picture and enjoy situations where they can play a game they want to play?

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I'm just illustrating what an LIE Ni subtype looks like. Just LIE with an emphasis on the creative function.

I wouldn't say they come across as an ILI because LIE and ILI have different creative functions. The way Ni surfaces in LIE vs ILI is different, regardless of subtype.

Sure, they have similarities, belonging to the same quadra, and both being NTs, but they shouldn't be conflated.

Creative function:

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This function describes the primary mode of application of the base function. If the base function forms the core of the individual's personal quests and interests ("What's in it for me?", "What do I want to be?"), the creative function describes his main instrument for interacting with the rest of society ("How do I make contact with other people?"). For extroverts this means creating a context for people to interact within, and for introverts — creating a product worthy of being included in interaction.People use their creative function less than their base function and attach less personal significance to it, although due to the nature of blocked functions it is usually used in tandem with the base function. In their value system, their creative function activities seem less personally significant than their base function activities. When other people try to make this function the main criterion for everything, light irritation can arise, and the person may try to "correct" the other person's emphasis by presenting a perspective from his base function and suggesting that this is more important. Also, when other people express problems having to do with this information aspect, the person quickly takes interest and tries to present solutions — but always through his own base function. For instance, an SEE will try to help other people solve their Fi related problems (relationships and understanding between people) through a Se perspective (making sure you know what you want and are trying to achieve it; understanding the territorial aspect of interaction; recognizing the obvious "dumb things" that people are doing that are ruining the relationship). When people get to use their creative function to help others' problems, they feel needed and fulfilled and begin to live more fully. Likewise, criticism in this area is more sensitive and unpleasant than in the base function.Use of the creative function — while frequent and effortless — seems to turn on and off. One moment the person may seem highly interested in this aspect, and the next — totally indifferent. This may jar people for whom this aspect of reality is of more supreme importance and who expect more consistent attention and effort in this area. A good example of this is one's interaction with their mirror partner; each person's leading function is subject to the other's creativity function, so even though both partners do share similar worldviews, they are apt to 'correct' or add on to the other's rigid and finalized points.

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Originally Posted by FarDraft

Of course. I am not trying to conflate them, but rather trying to see the connection between a base Ni individual and a strong creative Ni individual.

This is actually somewhat unrelated to the thread, but I noticed in the creative function quote it says that Se is related to knowing what you want and are trying to achieve it. I was unaware that this was related to Se. This is actually a characteristic of mine that I hold dearly. I know what I want in my life and I have been taking the steps to achieve it over the last many years. I have been thoroughly planning what I need to achieve my goals (knowledge, skills, connections, funds, etc.) and have been trying to figure out how to obtain them. For example, I have planned all the courses I want to take over my 4 year degree so that I cover all the bases needed for my future goals. Each course serves a purpose so there is no wasted time. Would you call this Te benefit seeking + Se desire-awareness + Ni forecasting? Because, if so, it could be evidence for my being LIE. LII isn't still lost on me though. Sorry for diverting the thread.

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According to model A, a connection between ILI and LIE is that they both have Ni in their ego block. Therefore, they have high proficiency with Ni, Ni is one of their most conscious functions, and they value Ni. Compared to the other types, a base Ni individual and a strong creative Ni have an exceptionally high preference for Ni. Nevertheless, the LIE is still an extravert who leads with Te and an ILI is still an introvert who leads with Ni. So, as far as subtypes are concerned, we're looking at a spectrum of preference; LIE Ni employs Ni more than the default profile and ILI Te employs Te more than the default profile.

That's not conclusive evidence for you being LIE; all gammas value Se and what they want plays a significant role in how they develop their vision (Ni) of how to get it.

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Originally Posted by FarDraft

Yes, I should have been less specific. It would be evidence for gamma, but I'm sure that I'm not gamma SF, so that would narrow it down to either ILI or LIE. All I wanted to know is if that correlated with gamma, which I strongly suspected it did.

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Have you always been that way? Is that generally how you live your life?

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Originally Posted by FarDraft

I'm getting the vibe of a more externally focused ILI. If that's the case, then what would be the difference between an LIE with very strong Ni (3Ni) and an ILI (just thinking out loud)? My assumption would be that they would essentially be an ILI via temperament but the functions would apply to them in a very LIE way eg. Fi suggestive instead of mobilizing, Si PoLR instead of role.

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Well ILIs are introverts, IP introverts, their energy is quite different from an EJ type if you look at their overall life. Even very Ni LIEs squander energy, are kind of loud, will initiate contact with people, etc.

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Originally Posted by FarDraft

I've actually been thinking about that recently. What I was like as a younger kids and how I've changed over time. While I don't remember much, what I can confidently say is that I've never had the best social skills. I remember this one time when a person came back to my school after a few years and the first thing I asked them was if they got any faster in sprinting. I was always the fastest sprinter in my grade, so I was very competitive about that, and I thought others were as well. But they were confused and displeased with my comment. (I should also mention that this person didn't really like me much, so I still made this comment knowing that).I've never been very good at gauging what I should and shouldn't say, so ultimately I end up being more careful than I need to be since I have had some bad experiences when people reprimanded me for being insensitive. Ultimately, I don't want people to feel bad about what I say since there's no point. There's a time for complete uncensorship but in front of a stranger isn't one of those times since there's no reason to burn a bridge that hasn't even been built yet. I don't know how this correlates in socionics terms, but I know that in real life terms this is called having poor social skills. I've been working at it though. I think I've gotten much better. Nowadays it still manifests as not knowing what to say in front of people but more because I'm afraid to offend others since I don't really know how my words affect them. So it comes across as awkwardness and offhanded dry remarks.

I'll see if I can give a more thorough estimation of my past self as I remember things more clearly.

EDIT: I should add that I am not afraid to offend somebody when I need to. It's just that I must be very convinced that it is the correct action to take since otherwise you look like the immature fool, especially if you call someone out in public. I tend to hesitate in this regard.

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This sound like Fi role (zone of fears), and Fe valuing.

Meged and Ovcharov have postulated that subtype preference for the creative function increases strength of the 3rd and 5th functions. Emphasizing The first function strengthens the 4th and 6th.

I think there is something to this idea.

So, LIE-Ni has more developped Fe and Fi and seems closer to a beta NF, whereas ILI-Te has better develloped Si and Se and thus seems closer to delta ST.

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Originally Posted by FDG

Well ILIs are introverts, IP introverts, their energy is quite different from an EJ type if you look at their overall life. Even very Ni LIEs squander energy, are kind of loud, will initiate contact with people, etc.

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Ah I'm pretty sure this is the football fan from another thread looking forward to talking to you soon :)
I agree E initiates contact with people but not the loud part really, I think any type is capable of that more than the other
I consider myself a really loud(scenario by scenario basis mostly) person
Yea

I think Hugh Grant and James Woods

Hi. How are you doing? I really appear as an ESTp, which is meh. I test as an INFp, which is wrong for too many reasons. I also test as INTp more often than not, and even INTj a few times. So, I tend to be more or less alone in my head, actually generating other entities and such to practice conversation with. It's fair, as I am a very musical and hearing based individual, so I can imitate people's tone of voice in my head. I don't prefer this, but often the ideal is better than the real thing.

I am that guy who picks a random table, sits with people, watches them, talks very sparingly, leaves, and then assigns myself to that table. This is irrespective of whether I enjoy it or not, and is often incredibly awkward. It is also very irrational.

Hello, I am apparently a Lie-Ni. I have to say I don't know so much about socionics nor MBTI, but out of all the times I have taken the socionics test, vast majority of my results have fallen into the Lie-0 to Lie-2Ni spectrum. In fact I was introduced to socionics by some people who initially suggested that I might be an ENTJ with a well developed Ni (with my MBTI results being almost evenly split between INTJ and ENTJ with INTJ coming up slightly more often). Socionics however has been consistent, to the point where I even tried to be more flexible with questions prioritizing those that favored answers like societal needs over productivity and being a humanitarian over improving own position and it would still give me Lie, my enneagram seems to be 8w7 which is also seems to be common to ENTJs.

I don't really know what you would like to know, but I definitely see some general difference between the perceived stereotype those found in ENTJs and me. There is a comprised reading list for several MBTI types online, and the list that is prescribed to INTJ appeals far more to me for example. There are a lot of common themes to me that are common to ENTJs, even as a child I always took charge, never liked being told what to do and was always very competitive. I liked playing with toy soldiers, was naturally attracted to chess and captained projects and sports teams. At the same time I was always fascinated with space, theoretical and abstract concepts. ENTJs are known to be out of touch with their feelings sometimes, and in parts this is very true and in part it is not with me. I know I can be very blunt, and rude especially those that cross me but at the same time I always went out of my way even as a child ti give away my lunch money to the homeless or to feed stray cats and dogs. I was also very good at acting and speeches, I would always be the lead in all school plays.

I don't really know what much else to tell you. There is already a description about Lie-Ni and Lie-Te on the sociotype website, but that would be me just regurgitating some material and not really me giving you answer from my perspective. So if there are some specific things you still want to know, ask away and I'll see what I can come up with if I don'tr forget about this thread.

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Originally Posted by FarDraft

Fairly straightforward. Specifically speaking about an LIE with 2Ni or higher. How would you expect such a person to act or behave? Since they overuse their creative function, would they come across more as an ILI while still maintaining the base Te drive for empiricism and productivity? If you have had experiences with these people, could you please describe them?

--- FarDraft

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As a celebrity: Elon Musk, works 120 hours and has much passion and vision. He shares the passion with the EIE-Ni, who has the most comparable Ni
One male friend of mine started a company also works 120 hours, and talks 120 words a minute. makes lot of money, but is very greedy. I'm not sure if they share that much with ILI, since the temperament is so different. But same quadra so, get along great. He's Sx/So.
One female friend I knew, talked like 2 hours on the phone and the phone automatically disconnects after two hours lol. Pretty dominant and agressive. Attack before they attack you. Though maybe due to Sx/So.

Just some random thoughts.

I have a class mate that I type as an ENTj-Ni. He is an international student from India studying graphic design.

Supposedly, I am an ENTj-Te 8w9. The superficial differences between us:

ENTj-Ni
-Much more social and friendly
-More erratic energy
-More humorous
-Less judgmental

ENTj-Te
-More concern regarding efficiency and productivity
-More aware of power dynamics
-More assertive
-More judgmental

LIE-Ni tends to be less confident in being LIE while LIE-Te tends to be overconfident whereas not being either indicates ideally-balanced; and similar is true for all types. Behavioural differences within a type can be solely linked to perceptions of one's potential for success and is something that can vary over one's lifetime. In a sense, sub-type is an illusion, which is why trying to determine it can sometimes be like trying to pee cleanly through a rolling doughnut......:content:

a.k.a. I/O

Here are some very general differences.


Te subtype has one or several of those traits:
Stereotypically extroverted; more impulsive; more invested in science and/or technical (e.g engineering) subjects; more into sports.

Ni subtype has one or several of those traits:
”Ambiverted” (can be mistaken for an introvert); more focused on societal issues and the welfare of society; more interested in psychology and spirituality.

An Entrepreneur who falls into both categories more or less is mostly likely the No subtype kind.


– from my blog post

It depends if you mean Harmonizing subtype (Ni subtype), or Creative subtype (emphasized Creative function - Ni in LIE).

So Harmonizing LIE is imo Elon Musk.

Creative LIE is imo Quentin Tarantino.

So this is the DCNH perspective. I dont like the 2 subtypes system because it seems like it often confuses functional emphasis with subtype function. But that's a different story.

LIE Ni

Speak unfiltered
Not confrontational, but not afraid to shut people up
Not ambitious or ruthless
More of a thinker than a doer
Love to shoot the shit
Formality does not exist but wary of people who are too friendly
Fashion tends more towards utility than presentation
Being alone is not unbearable as an extrovert

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Originally Posted by FarDraft

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Why?

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Originally Posted by hatesyardwork

LIE Ni

Speak unfiltered
Not confrontational, but not afraid to shut people up
Not ambitious or ruthless
More of a thinker than a doer
Love to shoot the shit
Formality does not exist but wary of people who are too friendly
Fashion tends more towards utility than presentation
Being alone is not unbearable as an extrovert

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Yeah, especially as Type 8.
Yep, See above.
Not ambitious? In my experience, Wrong. Never came across an un-ambitious LIE before. Not ruthless? Depends on how you define it, they can be "ruthless" in the sense they won't be afraid to "harm your feelings" if necessary.
They tend to be a mix of both, yes their Se HA is less strong, but they actually value Ni/Se more than LIE-Te for instance, so they will want to be active in some way, it will come in bursts. And they are still Te lead at the end of the day, so they will still be productive and "do" rather than just think, that is more of an INTx especially LII occupation.
"Love to shoot the shit" I guess yes? Depends on what you mean, I'd like more clarification ^^'
They can be aware of formalities and tend adhere to them in social situations, being Fe Role.
The LIE-Ni people I have known were often concerned with fashion (when SX first) but not necessarily too good at it. SX last LIE-Ni does care less, but they still don't want to look shabby.
Yeah it is not as bad, but it still takes a toll on them.

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Originally Posted by Olimpia

Yeah, especially as Type 8.
Yep, See above.
Not ambitious? In my experience, Wrong. Never came across an un-ambitious LIE before. Not ruthless? Depends on how you define it, they can be "ruthless" in the sense they won't be afraid to "harm your feelings" if necessary.
They tend to be a mix of both, yes their Se HA is less strong, but they actually value Ni/Se more than LIE-Te for instance, so they will want to be active in some way, it will come in bursts. And they are still Te lead at the end of the day, so they will still be productive and "do" rather than just think, that is more of an INTx especially LII occupation.
"Love to shoot the shit" I guess yes? Depends on what you mean, I'd like more clarification ^^'
They can be aware of formalities and tend adhere to them in social situations, being Fe Role.
The LIE-Ni people I have known were often concerned with fashion (when SX first) but not necessarily too good at it. SX last LIE-Ni does care less, but they still don't want to look shabby.
Yeah it is not as bad, but it still takes a toll on them.

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Good critique..................I can try to clarify my generalizations, which can scream clarity as they are generalizations.

Ambitious Ruthless? Don't want to be the boss and don't want to control others at all. Not a stand alone in the wilderness entrepenuer. The need to micro manage others is horrid to me. My job is essentially as a fixer, putting out the fires started by others, so I stay very active and have freedom and authority and am accountable to one person and essentially work for myself in a large organization. This is ideal for me, I am fixing problems and not people. May answer the thinker vs doer assertion.
Shoot the shit? Love to talk to everybody who I find interesting. Love to talk and talk. LIE Ni............very talkative.
Formalities? Don't show deference to authority, position, status or go out of my way to put others at ease. I'm not clingy, and I don't like clingers. I am interested in friendly relations and don't like tension. I liked
Fashion? Of course I meet the minimum of fashion standards, I am not a clothes horse is all........clean, presentable, clean shaven fresh haircut etc........just not interested in being Elton John. More interested in feeling comfortable than looking good.

Generalizations again, but these one way communications beg a clarification that rarely met.
Essentially not the stereotypical CEO savage.

*Technically. I don't know if yes or not. I haven't been screened in a method more than ad hoc Occam's Razor and the subtype test.

Yes. vvv

"Speak unfiltered
Not confrontational, but not afraid to shut people up
Not ambitious or ruthless
More of a thinker than a doer
Love to shoot the shit
Formality does not exist but wary of people who are too friendly
Fashion tends more towards utility than presentation
Being alone is not unbearable as an extrovert"

I also refuse to format my quotes correctly. It's not worth my time.

Although, there is a caveat, I do have ambition, but I rather consider them pointless projects.

Oh yeah, another thing, not afraid to try to shut people up. Whether it works or not? Unknown.

SHOOT. I'm not LIE. How do you strikethrough. Got it. Sorry, I test as ILI-Ni subtype. Although I *could* be LIE-Ni subtype, I really don't know, but I'm currently leaning on INTp/ILI-Ni subtype.

I misread LIE as ILI.

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Originally Posted by boragami

Hello, I am apparently a Lie-Ni. I have to say I don't know so much about socionics nor MBTI, but out of all the times I have taken the socionics test, vast majority of my results have fallen into the Lie-0 to Lie-2Ni spectrum. In fact I was introduced to socionics by some people who initially suggested that I might be an ENTJ with a well developed Ni (with my MBTI results being almost evenly split between INTJ and ENTJ with INTJ coming up slightly more often). Socionics however has been consistent, to the point where I even tried to be more flexible with questions prioritizing those that favored answers like societal needs over productivity and being a humanitarian over improving own position and it would still give me Lie, my enneagram seems to be 8w7 which is also seems to be common to ENTJs.

I don't really know what you would like to know, but I definitely see some general difference between the perceived stereotype those found in ENTJs and me. There is a comprised reading list for several MBTI types online, and the list that is prescribed to INTJ appeals far more to me for example. There are a lot of common themes to me that are common to ENTJs, even as a child I always took charge, never liked being told what to do and was always very competitive. I liked playing with toy soldiers, was naturally attracted to chess and captained projects and sports teams. At the same time I was always fascinated with space, theoretical and abstract concepts. ENTJs are known to be out of touch with their feelings sometimes, and in parts this is very true and in part it is not with me. I know I can be very blunt, and rude especially those that cross me but at the same time I always went out of my way even as a child ti give away my lunch money to the homeless or to feed stray cats and dogs. I was also very good at acting and speeches, I would always be the lead in all school plays.

I don't really know what much else to tell you. There is already a description about Lie-Ni and Lie-Te on the sociotype website, but that would be me just regurgitating some material and not really me giving you answer from my perspective. So if there are some specific things you still want to know, ask away and I'll see what I can come up with if I don'tr forget about this thread.

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this sounds like me

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Originally Posted by hatesyardwork

Good critique..................I can try to clarify my generalizations, which can scream clarity as they are generalizations.

Ambitious Ruthless? Don't want to be the boss and don't want to control others at all. Not a stand alone in the wilderness entrepenuer. The need to micro manage others is horrid to me. My job is essentially as a fixer, putting out the fires started by others, so I stay very active and have freedom and authority and am accountable to one person and essentially work for myself in a large organization. This is ideal for me, I am fixing problems and not people. May answer the thinker vs doer assertion.
Shoot the shit? Love to talk to everybody who I find interesting. Love to talk and talk. LIE Ni............very talkative.
Formalities? Don't show deference to authority, position, status or go out of my way to put others at ease. I'm not clingy, and I don't like clingers. I am interested in friendly relations and don't like tension. I liked
Fashion? Of course I meet the minimum of fashion standards, I am not a clothes horse is all........clean, presentable, clean shaven fresh haircut etc........just not interested in being Elton John. More interested in feeling comfortable than looking good.

Generalizations again, but these one way communications beg a clarification that rarely met.
Essentially not the stereotypical CEO savage.

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this sounds like a perfect job. :yup:

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Originally Posted by boragami

There are a lot of common themes to me that are common to ENTJs, even as a child I always took charge, never liked being told what to do and was always very competitive. I liked playing with toy soldiers, was naturally attracted to chess and captained projects and sports teams. At the same time I was always fascinated with space, theoretical and abstract concepts. ENTJs are known to be out of touch with their feelings sometimes, and in parts this is very true and in part it is not with me. I was also very good at acting and speeches, I would always be the lead in all school plays.

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THIS. I can relate to this. Especially for an ENTJ enneagram 8, there you go.
Thank you.

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Originally Posted by boragami

I know I can be very blunt, and rude especially those that cross me but at the same time I always went out of my way even as a child to give away my lunch money to the homeless or to feed stray cats and dogs.

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Not this. I can see this is the part where 8w7 is different than 8w9.
8w7 is more in your face. I'm never blunt or rude, I graciously explain what could be wrong when you do this, but if you cross the line I just end you.

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Originally Posted by Rebelondeck

LIE-Ni tends to be less confident in being LIE while LIE-Te tends to be overconfident whereas not being either indicates ideally-balanced; and similar is true for all types. Behavioural differences within a type can be solely linked to perceptions of one's potential for success and is something that can vary over one's lifetime. In a sense, sub-type is an illusion, which is why trying to determine it can sometimes be like trying to pee cleanly through a rolling doughnut......:content:
a.k.a. I/O

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I'm actually confident in being an LIE. How can an LIE not have self confidence?
What I think is the way they act.
LIE-Te is in your face. The stereotype LIE.
LIE-Ni is more balanced.

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Originally Posted by Uncle Ave

Meged and Ovcharov have postulated that subtype preference for the creative function increases strength of the 3rd and 5th functions. Emphasizing The first function strengthens the 4th and 6th.
I think there is something to this idea.
So, LIE-Ni has more developped Fe and Fi and seems closer to a beta NF, whereas ILI-Te has better develloped Si and Se and thus seems closer to delta ST.

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This is why I said LIE-Ni is more balanced, because they develop more Fi and Fe (compared to LIE-Te).
That explains why I'm still ok befriend my conflictor lol.
And if we can say LIE-Te seems closer to LSE, then LIE-NI is comparable to EIE.

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Originally Posted by Olimpia

Here are some very general differences.
Te subtype has one or several of those traits:
Stereotypically extroverted; more impulsive; more invested in science and/or technical (e.g engineering) subjects; more into sports.
Ni subtype has one or several of those traits:
”Ambiverted” (can be mistaken for an introvert); more focused on societal issues and the welfare of society; more interested in psychology and spirituality.

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LIE-Ni can definitely be mistaken for an introvert (ILI) especially if they're Sp/Sx and 8w9.
But sometimes they look like an EIE, because they have good Se. (Hence the name look-a-like intertype in socionic)

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Originally Posted by Olimpia

Yeah, especially as Type 8.
Not ambitious? In my experience, Wrong. Never came across an un-ambitious LIE before. Not ruthless? Depends on how you define it, they can be "ruthless" in the sense they won't be afraid to "harm your feelings" if necessary.

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Thank you. Ambitions and taking charge are what basically make us alive.

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Originally Posted by Scarlett

.......I'm actually confident in being an LIE. How can an LIE not have self confidence?
What I think is the way they act.
LIE-Te is in your face. The stereotype LIE.
LIE-Ni is more balanced......

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Less and over was with reference to the average LIEs, those who don't have a subtype. LIE-Ni subtypes spend twice the amount of time acquiring information than they would spend actually rationalizing it (50-50 is the ideal). Being 5% extra on the Ni side doesn't make one a subtype. Having a Ti-subtype like I have indicates a data-acquisition handicap.

I've met more than a few LIEs who lacked self-confidence with aspects of their lives (two drank themselves to death) so they're out there.

a.k.a I/O

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Originally Posted by Rebelondeck

Less and over was with reference to the average LIEs, those who don't have a subtype. LIE-Ni subtypes spend twice the amount of time acquiring information than they would spend actually rationalizing it (50-50 is the ideal). Being 5% extra on the Ni side doesn't make one a subtype. Having a Ti-subtype like I have indicates a data-acquisition handicap.

I've met more than a few LIEs who lacked self-confidence with aspects of their lives (two drank themselves to death) so they're out there.

a.k.a I/O

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I nearly drank myself to death. It wasn’t from lack of confidence, though. I was very self-confident. It was from hating parts of myself and being unable to act to change my external situation. Unfortunately, drinking just makes these things worse while reducing your ability to see this as it happens.

LIE’s do not love themselves. They are best off when they are able to use their abilities constructively and when they feel obligations to a team.

Without those things, the energy and drive gets turned inward, and that is very much not good.

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Originally Posted by Adam Strange

.....I was very self-confident. It was from hating parts of myself and being unable to act to change my external situation.....

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I perhaps erroneously assumed that any feeling of impotence is, in a sense, a lack of confidence. Most Ejs seem to go for it just to make a point, even when they know they're going to lose; it's sad when they'll no longer try.

a.k.a. I/O

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Originally Posted by Rebelondeck

I perhaps erroneously assumed that any feeling of impotence is, in a sense, a lack of confidence. Most Ejs seem to go for it just to make a point, even when they know they're going to lose; it's sad when they'll no longer try.

a.k.a. I/O

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No, sometimes you know that your chances of success are very slim, but if you project confidence, you can increase the chances of success. I don't think I ever do things just to make a point. I do them to get some result, and I always try to calculate the odds of success. If the odds are zero, or if the costs clearly outweigh any potential benefits, then I'll switch my efforts to something else. I'm not fundamentally trying to impress, I'm trying to do. Impressing someone is only in the service of getting something done.

Also, a lot of my confidence comes from being stupid about the odds against me. Like, "I can drink 24/7 and still hit home runs in my life." And I can be very confident that it will turn out fine. But, that's just stupid.

I would say that a LIE with a strong Ni subtype would have a better command over Fi than LIE-Tes do, they will seem more introverted than LIE-Tes, and their sensing functions will be weaker than a LIE-Te. They might confuse themselves for an introvert.

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Originally Posted by StarPath

I would say that a LIE with a strong Ni subtype would have a better command over Fi than LIE-Tes do, they will seem more introverted than LIE-Tes, and their sensing functions will be weaker than a LIE-Te. They might confuse themselves for an introvert.

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I know an LIE-Ni, and he does seem introverted. He doesn't push like I do, and he kind of hangs around an LSE guy like a puppy, saying "How can I be useful? What can I do? What do you think?"

Weirdly enough, he really wants kids and is married to a woman (not a dual. I think she's SLI, like my ex) who seems not to want any kids, and he's letting her make that decision. "Oh, well", he says. "If it happens, it happens."

In comparison, I married a woman who then told me that she didn't want kids. I told her that I did, and I was going to have them, and I hoped they'd be with her, but they didn't have to be.

I wanted three, she wanted none, and we compromised on one. I still feel stupid about that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tallmo

Creative LIE is imo Quentin Tarantino.

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Quentin is not lie, afaict.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Olimpia

After watching this, I have finally arrived at the conclusion that he is actually IEE-Ne Sx/So (7w6 > 6w7).
The interviewer is LSE btw. He helps with showing the contrast between Te and Ne lead.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5KkI_YS4ug

Sx/So people usually come across as Se valuing because they have this "confrontational"/(semi-)revolutionary vibe and motivation.
But watching the interview, it becomes apparent that Tarantino is actually IEE-Ne.
IEE-Ne can appear similar to an NT because of the boosted Te HA.

His movies have a lot of Counterphobic 6 elements.

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He's an extrovert. Beyond that.........I am not seeing LIE desires and foci when it comes to how he interacts, what he wants emotionally from an interlocuter, what pleases him about his work, what he focuses on, nor to what he draws your attention and HOW he draws it.

Gammas feel more reptillian, even the easy going, democratic, charismatic LIE, ime.

LIE will raise your spirits, make jokes, act gallant/attentive. It's difficult to imagine Tarantino offering to move something heavy for someone.


Maybe I just don't know him well enough, but I don't get it. I liked the acting by his Shoshana character, but the over all theses of his movies don't feel LIE to me.

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Originally Posted by Adam Strange

......I don't think I ever do things just to make a point....Impressing someone is only in the service of getting something done..Also, a lot of my confidence comes from being stupid about the odds against me.....

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I would think that Ni-subtypes would be the more image conscious but they all seem to be to an extent. Yes, I agree that LIEs tend to be very deliberate, and calculating of odds and effect. I realize that my experience is anecdotal; however, those that I've met (even those with obvious, overriding, personal problems) seem to want everyone to leave with the impression that they were a force to be reckoned with. I've witnessed several who deliberately went after (in a corporate sense) people who made them look bad; I was targeted by one because I refused a position he offered me and he may have made promises. Life for the LIEs, with whom I've had dealings, seems to revolve around total control of the overall program; maybe this changes with age. To an observer, the only admission to any lack of confidence was them not trying or steering clear and this could likely have been a result of them calculating the odds.

a.k.a. I/O

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rebelondeck

I would think that Ni-subtypes would be the more image conscious but they all seem to be to an extent. Yes, I agree that LIEs tend to be very deliberate, and calculating of odds and effect. I realize that my experience is anecdotal; however, those that I've met (even those with obvious, overriding, personal problems) seem to want everyone to leave with the impression that they were a force to be reckoned with. I've witnessed several who deliberately went after (in a corporate sense) people who made them look bad; I was targeted by one because I refused a position he offered me and he may have made promises. Life for the LIEs, with whom I've had dealings, seems to revolve around total control of the overall program; maybe this changes with age. To an observer, the only admission to any lack of confidence was them not trying or steering clear and this could likely have been a result of them calculating the odds.

a.k.a. I/O

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@Rebelondeck, I think you’re right about “total control of the whole program”, but not all the time. Only when we care about the program.

Most of the time, if the program is your program or is not interesting, LIE’s just don’t care about it at all. I mean, it’s your problem, you deal with it.

But if it’s my program, then I get to set the goals and the schedule and who does what.

I wasn’t always like this. When I started my beloved first company, I shared (gave away) control and just assumed that what I wanted was what everyone wanted and they’d all work and sacrifice as much as I would. I was pretty stupid. Eight years and about half a $M out of my after-tax income later and my partners had control of my company and didn’t share my vision and took it in the wrong direction and bankrupted it. The fallout from that cost me more thousands.

Most people are not going to share your vision and are not willing to sacrifice or sweat blood and work as hard as you are to make that vision a reality. Fine. They get paid for their services, they don’t get ownership. If they get paid to spend time working for me, they need to do what I need to have done. If they deviate, it should be in the direction of bringing more talent to the job, not less.

I’m not god. I don’t know how to do everything. I get around that by having a good sense of how good other people are at their jobs, and I like to work with very competent people. The more competent and experienced and social (in the sense of fitting into the team without needing a lot of attention or interventions), the better. I can’t stress this enough. They do the actual work, and great people are worth a lot. But they just don’t usually assume the obligations that you have to assume to keep the whole process going. That’s fine. Not everyone is so screwed up that they make their work their life.

Everybody wants to rule the world. Very few people are willing to work hard for it.

OK, now that my rant is over, let me say that from what I’ve observed, LIE-Te’s are better at starting a company from nothing, and LIE-Ni’s are better at running a business that already exists. You need tremendous drive to start a company, and you need very good people skills to run it. I’ve never seen anyone who has both.

Initially, the company grows by sheer force of will (and customers). Later, it grows by acquisitions. The two processes are very different and require very different skills and mind-sets.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nanashi

Quentin is not lie, afaict.

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You are right. I was probably wrong about him. EIE?

@Adam Strange

Your theme song from your dual
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao8cGLIMtvg

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Originally Posted by Tallmo

You are right. I was probably wrong about him. EIE?

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Olimpia is a really good judge of types. Not immediately, but eventually, she seems to be able to piece together things that other people don't have the patience to discover. I trust that her typing of Tarantino as IEE-Ne is accurate.

He is random like an IEE but doesn't seem to have the evangelical streak that EIE's can have. His movies don't lead to lessons or global Ni insights, but rather are just one random thing after another, strung together to make a story. Kind of.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tallmo

You are right. I was probably wrong about him. EIE?

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I feel unqualified to type him. I think you're correct on extrovert. But I feel hesitant to guess about him. He's just very unlike me in the microexpressions and such. And I can, usually, recognize a similar mind to my own in all the ENTjs. I don't sense it in him.

Have you ever seen him around LSI? The interactions there might be useful in typing him. Often erratic extroverts seem peaceful around their duals, etc.

I don't know him enough to type him. I just have "Other" as a response

This is a guy I know personally. I type him LIE harmonizing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEDl6jMQsiU

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam Strange

@Rebelondeck, I think you’re right about “total control of the whole program”, but not all the time. Only when we care about the program.

Most of the time, if the program is your program or is not interesting, LIE’s just don’t care about it at all. I mean, it’s your problem, you deal with it.

But if it’s my program, then I get to set the goals and the schedule and who does what....

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With some of their closest relationships, I wonder whether or not some LIEs treat these partners or friends like programs in which they've interest. As an observer, there seemed to be more than a few enmeshed in struggles for control or to break free from it.

a.k.a. I/O

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rebelondeck

With some of their closest relationships, I wonder whether or not some LIEs treat these partners or friends like programs in which they've interest. As an observer, there seemed to be more than a few enmeshed in struggles for control or to break free from it.

a.k.a. I/O

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i have often seen ppl as programs in which i have an interest, but also seeing myself that way. it's just one lens to view the world with, and I don't always use it. And I don't see it as a control or break free dichotomy. Sometimes you just want to coexist when you happen to meet. Maybe figure out what programs they have running right now and think about your own current programs and how to dance with those givens, aware evolution is always possible

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Olimpia

Ni subtype has one or several of those traits:
”Ambiverted” (can be mistaken for an introvert); more focused on societal issues and the welfare of society; more interested in psychology and spirituality.


– from my blog post

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yep... 100%

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hatesyardwork

LIE Ni

Speak unfiltered
Not confrontational, but not afraid to shut people up
Not ambitious or ruthless
More of a thinker than a doer
Love to shoot the shit
Formality does not exist but wary of people who are too friendly
Fashion tends more towards utility than presentation
Being alone is not unbearable as an extrovert

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You nailed it! Formality does not exist :lol:

Back when DarkAngelFireWolf69 believed in the two-subtype system, he wrote this:

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Intuitive subtype: (The Strategist) Calm and balanced, conducts a regulated life, knows when to take advantage of opportunities. Quietly selects what idea it is better to follow, will always find the most optimal and advantageous output, which will give the greatest return. They are frequently a natural scientist, an experimenter, acting with their mind and hands simultaneously. Can interest themselves in chemistry, and in painting, in this case they try to bring everything to the end. Excellent hygrotechnician and experimenter. Gets along well with children, easily carries them along through their interesting actions. Outwardly more restrained and stocky than the other subtype; tries to dress well and pay attention to their health.

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As an example, this actor (probably E7):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHKUTCMpgJs

Or this one (probably 3w4):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEvrkW2je6c

In the gallery in my signature there are more examples.