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https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-HbMeEAuGi...2Bmeme%2B1.jpg
You sound like IEE to me, but that's without in-depth analysis, as there isn't much useful information you pass IMO.
not anyone here follows to falsehope's typing methods. so you have nothing to affraid. I just sacrifice a couple of goats to get the type and some meat
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...=1#post1096450
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From these tests results it looks more like NF, so it's possible to narrow it down to IEI, EIE, EII and IEE. So maybe this time I would guess IEI and EII.
Here is comparision, not best, but it's something http://www.sociotype.com/tools/type-comparison/IEI-EII
Tests should give lesser chance to be typed correctly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kara
We'll stay without the meat today, as the materialization is still beyond my typing skills.
> Can it make a difference that English is not my first language?
should not, if you understand what was asked there
Ru's test points on F-N type:
Ne+Ni vs Se+Si = 46 vs 30 = 60%
Fe+Fi vs Te+Ti = 39 vs 22 = 64%
Enlgish test:
http://aimtoknow.com/test_beta
in case you know Russian:
http://www.socioclub.org/tests/?testid=DarkAngelFireWolf69
in case you have a lot of free time and want to try original Socionics test (as it's based on IR theory):
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...-test-(by-Sol)
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The groups there - are people of the same type. You need to look at them and evaluate by the offered there criterion, to compare with other groups and to sort them. This may take ~8 hours. It can be done in several days, but on the final stage you should do surface look of all groups again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kara
> I think I have a hard time differentiating between EIE and IEI.
IR may help.
You pointed out few things that would say you are introverted, so it would be more like IEI.
@Kara
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Hey, I’m Kara. I’ve been very scared to register on the forum and to do this questionnaire. I hope it’s not because of the lack of introspection, but more because of that fact that while I’m really trying to find roots and somehwere I could belong – a static place that welcomes me anytime I leave - I don’t think personality as we see is necessarily something that exists. I know I was different 5 years ago, and maybe 5 minutes ago, and not just my taste, but maybe even the way I was thinking or making decisions. I was very afraid back then that if I won’t find a way to call or see myself in one way, I won’t really exist. Today I think the opposite – the fact that I know how much we change, and that I’m something that will always change like something fluid, minute to minute gives me freedom and hope, the freedom, because I feel nowdays I’m the very thing that has the perception of all the thoughts, feelings and changing forms of me, and hope, because I know I could change if I’d like to, anytime I would make a mistake, or would need to rethink the way I live.
I don't want to be a mood killer but finding stability in a type sounds pleasant but what you will most likely find is mildy conflicting type descriptions, people on the forum who challenge your typing for whtaever reasons. Then someday you find out that you don't fit a certain desciption 100% so either you switch types endlessly or you try to find more "precision" in your type by adding a ennegram with wings, a tritype, your hogwarts house and so on...until you end up with some thing that sounds more like a barcode than a "personality"
for example:
Hello I'm an ENTP ILE-3Ti-C 7w6 5w4 2w3 Rawenclaw Thunderbird Sagittarius ...I'm also a self diagnosed Borderline
See that as a warning.
Off topic: I'm a bit baffled. How is it possible to study three things at once?Quote:
Tell me about yourself
I’m currently a university student, studying psychology, philosophy and arts. I have a hard time introducing myself this way, I usually wait until I get to a topic, when I can just pour all the weird things on someone, or suddenly be very opened and honest about a serious topic. I also believe I'm socially ambiverted.
What do you consider weird? What is it about a individual or situation that makes it feel ok to be "suddenly very open and honest"
HOw do you use your "hunches" in daily live? Would you cal it emphatizing with people. What do you think about manipulation? Would you find that fair/ethically correct or wrong. Would you say that you mostly correct with your "hunches" ?Quote:
What do you study or do for a living? How did you come to do that? What do you like or dislike about it?
When I had to decide what to study, I knew there were one or two things that was already a huge part of my life. It was psychology, philosophy and arts. I know about the last two, but psychology felt like I suddenly realized how much I analyzed everyone around me. And when not analyzing, I feel things about people, like hunches that tell me what they feel, or what's going on.
How do you determine that something is a politically correct fashion movement? So you make your own research or are there any people whose opinions you respect a lot? Do you find expression yourself and your opinions to be more important that the group atmosphere. Would you say that sometimes you're able to push your own values onto others? What is the cause for becoming "dramatic and serious"?Quote:
What are your values, and why?
Being open-minded. It helps me to deal with obstacles, lets me learn a lot, and even others could benefit from it. I think the other thing is not being the part of any politically correct fashion movement, and being able to talk about anything. I know this is more complicated on a society level, let me talk about from my personal view. If I can act as a proper human being, there is no need for the thought police. It’s how and why you say things – and if you can understand it, it helps to know yourself more.
Oh, and being more laid-back. I can get way too dramatic and serious, and I like to remind myself of that.
Concerning your talk about darkness and struggle: You'll probably love Jordan B. Peterson and Nietzsche then. So far I'd say Beta NF.Quote:
What do you look for in friends? In romantic relationships?
Depht, intelligence, open-mindedness, kindess and a good sense of humor. I like people who have faced something dark before, and got to know themselves and I can feel they thought about the world as well. I feel I can’t trust someone who didnt face some hard things and their own darkness, it almost feels like I can’t connect to anything.
One of my friends said it really well: „Your problem is that you are lookin for some kind of Holy Grail in everyone and everything, and if you can’t see it, you’ll get impatient and bored.”
Useless to whom? Which retard said that? I though you're caring and emotionally intuitive? Maybe you need an SLE to motivate you lol. So far I'd say IEI (low energy and potentially Te-Polr with money)Quote:
In what areas of life can you manage well on your own? In what areas of your life would you like help?
It needs help every way. I have my resources though. I am good at having an intuition about myself and others (mostly in emotional ways, patterns, things they I/they don’t want to see), but I can get way too tangled in my thoughts, so I like to talk to friends from time to time.
I’m also not the best with money, I spend everything instantly that inspires me, and I’m not really interested in status or career, but more interested in learning and creating. This basically means I can be very useless.
May I introduce you to the Beta Quadras lord and savior, the SLE: [url]http://wikisocion.net/en/index.php?title=SLE_Profile_by_DarkAngelFireWolf69[url]Quote:
What traits do you find endearing that others might dislike? What traits are considered positive/neutral by others but tend to annoy you?
I like when someone is maybe loud or full of energy, and takes the initiative, maybe reckless. I like when someone is politically incorrect, say things out loud (not an idiot though).
I don’t like when someone is very quiet or preppy.
All in all I would say IEI > very introverted EIE. Hope that helps a bit. My main point is that you make your own research. If you want to know more you could try to type the people around you and think about your intertype relationships. For example if you're IEI it's unlikely that you're best friends with and ESTj (your conflictor). In that case the type of EIE would be incorrect.
Also, Stratiyevskaya wrote incredibly detailed descriptions about dual relationships http://wikisocion.net/en/index.php?t...Stratiyevskaya take a look maybe and see if it fits
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kara
Yes they can.
Also, hello and welcome to our humble abode.
An example of socioally-introverted extrovert is Neil Gaiman (because i love him, that's why). I type him IEE,
In this video you can clearly see his use of Ne and Fi. Things that are not, however, speciffied in the video is that he is really off-beat and pretty isolated, at least when compared to his wife (who by the way is Amanda Fucking Palmer, a very wild woman mind you).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-C48jAkVlI0
It's possible to some degree, when people shift the behavior to the side of other types. Like extraverts may reduce social contacts compared to average for them. By nontypes reasons like emotional problems, the lack of free time or other. It's why nonverbal and IR is important to take into account also.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kara
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android
Jung's types is what generally dominates in your consciousness. The particular behavior is secondary and under the influence of different factors, besides the type.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kara
Extraverts want or need more of social contacts than introverts, and they generally have them more. But the concrete extravert may behave in other way too, if he is under the factors which are not common in that environment and most extraverts are without them.
Also social contacts is about people, so partly relates to F type - the interest and abbilities of communications with people. The least of socializing may to have T-I types.
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I'm thinking EII just from reading your post, but take it with a grain of salt. You sound a lot like an EII i know.
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Lol, i know the feeling. The fun is in deepening your understanding of how you think by observing yourself evaluating these different ways of percieving information, at least IMO. With this mindset you'll surely find value in Socionics without necessarily knowing your own 'type'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kara
I agree with Fe valuing. I haven't read it all closely yet, just glanced through skimming, and haven't even looked at part 2 yet, but this among other things:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kara
says probably Fe-valuing (and most likely an introvert) possibly IEI to me.Quote:
I like when someone is maybe loud or full of energy, and takes the initiative, maybe reckless. I like when someone is politically incorrect, say things out loud (not an idiot though).
I don’t like when someone is very quiet or preppy.
and this:
says NF of some variety.Quote:
Ne:26
Fe: 24
Ni:20
Ti:16
Se:16
Fi:15
Si:14
Te:6
And this:made me smile.Quote:
Sometimes I go out of my comfort zone and tell them something that I know will make them happy and is actually true (like telling old women with green or pink hair that they look really cool).
Will look through the rest now, and if something jumps out at me or contradicts either NF or Fe-valuing I'll say so.
Edit: Nothing contradicted it. :) I'm thinking IEI would be a good place to start, but agree with Cosmic that it's best if you do your own research rather than taking anyone else's word for it when you're typing. And imo the label isn't the point, the understanding of oneself and others is, so it doesn't matter if you leave the typing of yourself open-ended. That might even be the better approach overall.
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I think IEI also.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kara
It is easier using the four Jungian dichotomies (or mbti... J/P is problematic, though). The problem is that the functions are not well-defined.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kara
"Ni: perception of time (intangible connections between processes separated in time and space: sense of when things might happen, patterns of events, abstract representations of processes)"
This is a poor description of Ni.
Attachment 13228
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If you know that you are (for example) an IEI or an EII, then you can use the functions (Ni vs. Fi).
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I don't think you can be in the middle of the extraversion/introversion scale. You either get energy from being alone or you get energy from social interaction... one contradicts the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kara
EDIT: To be honest, I don't know if this is accurate or not. An alternative view could be that introverts need more alone time.
"The extraverted introtim: These people tend to be socially involved and feel comfortable expressing themselves publicly without feelings of self-consciousness. They tend not to think a lot or hesitate before speaking out loud and are highly verbal."
EDIT: This could still be an introvert. This is an extrovert.
I prefer this description of extroverts/introverts (but I still don't think there are any ambiverts):
"The fourth ring describes how people interact with their environment. Individuals who prefer more overt action [saying and doing] during covert acting [conception and perception] (observing or introspecting) are described as expressive, whereas people who prefer more covert acting during overt [or inactive] action are described as attentive. Some associative words for "expressive": active, chatty, conversant, effusive, fluent, profuse, verbose. Some associative words for "attentive": alert, all eyes, all ears, aware, chary, circumspect, heedful, wary, watchful. The expressive versus attentive dichotomy is the most contextual. In other words, overt action and covert reaction is more dictated by the environmental circumstance at the moment."
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http://www.temperamentorder.com/expressivities.php
The 2 Expressivities
Intragating/Extragating are the two expressivities. Similar to temperament, the two expressivities come in a sequential order for each LTO personality type. The expressivities are separate from the four temperaments, but considered part of temperament order. For example, Extragating - Guardian, Artisan, Rational then Idealist (E.gari) is a complete definition of temperament order for the LTO type Manager (ESTJ.gari). The additional letters in the type name are not needed, but remain for mapping and historical reference.
In 1921 Carl Jung introduced the two metaphorical "attitude-types" Introverted/Extroverted. In 1957 Myers & Briggs explained Introverted/Extroverted as Reserved/Expressive and labeled them I/E. In 1978 Keirsey kept the Jung/Myers definitions for I/E in his work. In 2011 Lewis replaced Introverted/Extroverted with Intragating/Extragating definitions.
Why change to Intragating/Extragating? They are verb-based and observable. They don't carry any bad definitions of Introverted/Extroverted. They work with the I/E letters for familiarity.
Intragating (I)
To Intragate is to intermittently communicate to others about goals in social situations. The goals vary by temperament, but all Intragating types selectively communicate them.
Many Intragators excel at non-verbal communication, they communicate only what is important to others and use personal effort to achieve their goals. In social situations, Intragators more often think to themselves before communicating than think out loud to others. Intragating does not mean shy, cold or unsociable.The I types are on the Organizers (IJ) and Designers (IP) role wheels.
Extragating (E)
To Extragate is to continually communicate to others about goals in social situations. The goals vary by temperament, but all Extragating types readily communicate them.
Many extragators excel at verbal communication, they communicate everything they are doing to others and use it as a skill to have others or groups achieve their goals. In social situations, Extragators more often think out loud to others than think to themselves before communicating. Extragating does not mean friendly, or sociable.The E types are on the Instructors (EJ) and Motivators (EP) role wheels.
This is interesting. I am IEE, and that is said to be the most introverted extrovert. I always thought it was because my parents were both I's, and they encouraged a quiet home. I like a quiet home, and my SLI husband, when we are home alone, seems to be the "E" of the two of us! Sometimes I actually say "I need to be quiet now"...Quote:
Originally Posted by Petter
I studied MBTI some years back, and I always liked the explanation that came in a book I read, which was probably Gifts Differing. The analogy was the General of the army and the General's Aide. The Extrovert would stand outside the tent, giving orders and supervising important stuff with the people, leaving his Aide in the tent to take care of less important matters. The Introvert would stay inside the tent taking care of important matters, sending his Aide out to deal with the people.
So you see, its all on where you keep the bulk, the important part of your personality. If you are an Introvert with a very competent Aide, no one thinks you are a shy, introverted person, but the bulk of you just isn't for everybody... Hope that makes ssense. Its how I internalized what I read many years ago, and it always works for me in differentiating E/I...
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon....vL._SL300_.jpg
Tests mean little unless you know how to interpret them. Based on your self-analysis, I lean towards EII. At the very least, strong Fi is evident in your response, and this will allow you to refine your type down to four possibilities if you try hard enough.
I wish I could say more, but I feel the urge to retire and sink more piss. We will see each other soon.
Beta NF. IEI or EIE-H (DCNH).
EIE-H description:
Clearly you are an NF of some sort. You ask a lot of existential questions with a rhetorical bent which is more typical of a Ni-valuer than a Ne-valuer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kara
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kara
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kara
OK you are definitely not a Delta. Your desire for the freedom to talk about anything - in other words, exert your influence - suggests some control over Se as well and that would make EIE more likely than IEI.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kara
Yes, this suggests EIE as well. They are often prone to melodrama.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kara
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kara
So, you are attracted to men who despite having seen what a rough place the world can be, are not bitter, and who can hold a decent conversation. If you are attracted to darkness, you seek introversion which further points toward EIE (Ti-DS).Quote:
Originally Posted by Kara
Perfectionism with low logic (the inability to break down your goal into steps) can be quite frustrating.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kara
You seem like an EIE to me.
OK, Kara seems like the kind of beta NF version that @Owl also seems to be. I also considered EIE for Owl in the same fashion. I don't know if the EIE-H idea solves the issues with the extra introversion, or if it's all just an IEI thing where the IEI is just moody for whatever reason like in this subtype system of @Nebula from here:
I find this good because it points out how the real leading emphasis is still on Ni instead of any Feeling (Fe/Fi), as per the bolded. If this is not true and the leading role is actually from the emotions then it would be EIE rather than IEI (or EII if it's Fi and not Fe but in this case it's quite clear both Kara and Owl are beta NFs and not delta NFs lol).Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebula
EDIT: I posted an analysis in Owl's type thread too now, about the distinction between Fe leading vs Ni leading, here.
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This openness to perspectives, I've come to realize it's an IEI feature more than EIE. EIEs do see perspectives I'm sure and the descriptions say they can get confused with too many options, but an EIE calling this the most important thing...? And while EIEs may look really scattered to me when they let themselves go unfiltered lol, I did not realize for a while that that is not the same as actually wanting more perspectives and deliberately staying open to all that different stuff. I personally realized this when I examined Irrationals (such as IEI) more closely. Also, granted, I don't know what an EIE-H would say. But still, this would coincide with the difference between Rationality and Irrationality and it should for EIE-H too eventually.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kara
I'm discussing this at length because I do find it's a quite valid distinction I've seen play out in practice a lot too. And so hopefully it can be helpful to you too.
If you are more like you imagine emotions but you do not *live* the emotions much (only here and there), I mean, you may feel them here and there and even a lot of them, but your life is just not determined by you directly living your emotions, then this sounds like Intuition lead instead of Ethics lead. Intuition imagines things about the feeling/emotion, Ethics just feels it and orients by that feeling or emotion. So an Intuition lead imagines things about the emotions/feelings more than be led by living the emotions, and an Ethics lead just lives their lives by the emotions/feelings. An NF would do both Intuition and Ethics but there is still this distinction.Quote:
I realized in the meantime, that what I see as dramatic, might be something that isn't to others. I think my thoughts are what can be more dramatic, my expression is not as much. And when my thoughts get dramatic, it's usually when there is a crisis in my life, and I start to see things dark, but it's coming in waves. I think I am a bit zoomed out or restricted to act dramatic. Maybe if you count situations, when I talk about something otherworldly, or I write poems, or I use colorful words and pauses to describe something. But I think my IEI friend can get just as dramatic, if not even more.
This was another thing I noticed that seems quite a valid distinction in reality... so a good way to differentiate between IEI and EIE as well. Van der Hoop (Jung student) had a hard to read writing on this difference between the two (Intuition and Feeling, them being the same pretty much as the Socionics versions for this purpose), but it all can be summed up in the above: N imagines emotion, F actually lives it in their life.
I've seen people talk like this before. I figure this is Intuition: the "wholeness" of things.Quote:
(...) that gives depht and I almost feel how it makes someone sentient. This is why I appreciate people and their monsters.
Seems like Intuition. Looking behind what is, hidden patterns and all that... and getting impatient/bored perhaps due to Leading function disliking that there is nothing for it. Sorry that part is speculation a bit.Quote:
Ah, this was easy to misunderstand, my mistake. I am not looking for perfection necessarily, what I meant by "Holy Grail" is that mission I feel sometimes I'm on - finding some truth, or looking beyond the veil, searching for God(s), or secrets. Even if I am not actively seeking, it feels like when I can't find crumbles of it in a conversation, or in someone as we speak, I can get impatient or bored. Nowdays I feel you can't necessarily look beyond the mundane days - you have to look into them, to find patterns, secrets, understanding, maybe even without words.
Glad if it helps! I think the way to confirm the leading function and its dual-seeking opposite is if you can look through your life situations and see how the right pair of leading/dual-seeking has way more things fall in place than any other pair. That is how it worked out for me - I originally typed as SLE quite a while ago, then I realized Ti/Fe explained way more for me than Se/Ni as the leading/dual-seeking pair, basically giving an explanatory frame around things if that makes sense. :content:Quote:
@Myst, what a great posts, and cool insights. I could see myself as EIE-H, but this IEI with Fi is also very interesting. I wish there would be a test to see what is my leading function, it's very hard to see sometimes how I work (the processes). For example, many times I have hunches or insights and I have a conclusion - even without further analyzing, almost like "I just know" why I feel about something in a way, what is someone feeling, why is someone doing something etc.
I'll try to provide a few more things, but even if we wouldn't get further, you and @Spermatozoa were of great help, and I really appreciate it.
Your "just knowing" seems like Ni, btw.
This sounds like depression of some sort. But maybe "depression" would oversimplify the issue. It's more like... I think when one is less synced up with things, including the dual-seeking function too, it can lead to issues like this. (Just my little theory, and it gets too speculative at this point so let's forget about it :lol:)Quote:
-I am very low energy, and find it hard to get motivated, almost like "nothing makes more sense than anything else, so why bother
Yeah I think at that point you sound like you are getting out of balance. I believe 99.99% of humans need input (cognitively) from others too to keep things aligned ok (that's part of that state with being synced up I mention).Quote:
-I can spend days alone, but I usually talk to people texting, or play games for a few hours, this can be a bit much though. I rarely go out, and I can be very uncomfortable and impatient when I have to travel, the weather is hot/raining, to be among many people, especially when I don't know them. But if I don't talk for a few days with anyone, I start feel depressed, and get into really weird moods and thoughts, and get more and more disconnected from reality. I am usually way more excited about getting home, eat something nice, read a new book, play a new game etc. than to go out.
(The 0.01% can be the hermits who've given up on life in the world pretty much and for some reason they learned to be ok with that, while skipping on a lot of functionality and just life in general ofc.)
Hmm yeah I don't think duals are 100% perfect or anything like that. BTW as an LSI, I would say I don't really need others to initiate much in tangible things but if I'm not emotionally motivated enough I can get (at least temporarily) oblivious about previous good ideas so then it can look like I need someone else to initiate, while actually all I'd need is the idea coming up again (I remember it again or someone else brings it up, not as tangible initiative, just mentioning it again as a good idea) and me deciding it's now time to do it. So EIE actually is good there because they have that emotionality that's actually real and almost tangible to me and then I will pay more serious attention to ideas too :lol: But the EIE does not need to make physical initiative at all about these things.Quote:
-I really like the dephts we can go with LSIs, that they go into details, and actually want to understand you, it feels intimate. But most of them were more quiet or cold, than my Se dom friends, or lacked the motivation to try exciting or weird things, almost like they wanted me to initiate, which bothered me. Spending a lot of time with ultra mega Se people can make me a little bit exhausted in the long run, even though I am very grateful for their initiation and energy, as I can relax, and just enjoy that they "lead me" in a way. I enjoy being mystical around them, and even when I was younger my ultimate flirt technique was to play it cool and mysterious (cringe, I know). I don't like when someone wants me to charge them emotionally, it makes me feel uncomfortable. I like giving depht, weird thoughts, meaning, and maybe inspire people to free self-expression.
Oh you mention lack of interest in trying weird things, yeah LSIs would be less open to that but I find if I realize the person who I do like otherwise just likes these things, I can make myself more tolerant and make myself pay attention more. It unfortunately has to be a conscious decision, and until that conscious realization and decision happens, I will look too dismissive. It happened once before, that I got to this realization with an IEI friend. With another beta NF I was too easily dismissive though, as there was never a chance for the realization to arrive. I do know quite a few LSIs who are such closed "walls" that I find it hard to imagine how that would even work to get those LSIs to become more tolerant and pay attention more (i.e. try to be interested at least a little). :content:
So you say SLE can tire you out after a while. I think it doesn't have to exclude duality really. I actually managed to tire out an IEI-Fe guy I used to date and I'm not even SLE, just close-ish. :lol: (And I don't just mean tire him out in *that* way...) If for a pretty long time the balance is good, SLE can still be your dual. It seems like overall you get positives from both LSI and SLE but you get fewer negatives with SLE on close distance, that is, it needs fewer compromises than with LSI, if I interpreted your post correctly.
I would say I definitely find IEIs offer some advantage (of Ni "depth") that EIEs don't offer, but on the whole I relate to EIE like you relate to SLE, fewer negatives than with IEI. Even though workable compromises can be there for IEIs and of course for other types too, duality is a bit more automatic there. Not saying compromise isn't needed in duality... after all it's still two very different people. I just mean on the whole duals end up in a better flowing sync than with the other types.
Your last two sentences: I'm not sure what you mean by someone wanting you to emotionally charge them. Can you do some description of some more everyday situations so I can see what you mean by this? I mean, if you have any descriptions at all, if you don't, then ofc don't bother with it, I'm just curious. The last sentence is mostly Ni with a little bit of Fe.
Yeah my guess would be your experiences influence this. For example I've seen friendly IEIs that don't have to force themselves like this. I've also seen depressed EIE that became quiet and closed with the ongoing depression.Quote:
-When someone is more quiet, and starts to follow me around like a puppy, I feel freaked out. I enjoy being alone, or with independent people, who are good at socializing.
-I think I lack emotional expression in a few ways, that people would need or like. For example my SEE friend always gets upset, when she texts me something that I don't really care about (like she is eating cereal at the moment), and expects me to get enthusiastic or bubbly, instead just saying something ironic or bored, like "great". Sometimes I also try to force myself to send smileys or write exclamation marks, because otherwise I feel to people who don't know me I could be seen bored, angry or annoyed (my SEE friend told me this before). Although I have to mention, that I think I became more quiet and closed, less expressive, because of bad experiences in the past, so this could be because of that.
Yeah I tried to address this emotionality in the previous post and in the post to Owl too.Quote:
-On the other hand, I feel I'm actually pretty emotional, in a way that my mind is restless, and things can hit me a bit harder than I usually see it on my friends. I can get very sad, feel sorry for someone, get nervous, and there are those random moments, when I lose common sense, and start to panic. This doesn't last too long though, and I get back to my normal mood.
Not entirely type related though Ni cognition (not necessarily even Ego Ni tho') can be responsible for a lot of this.Quote:
-Even though I am low energy, and unmotivated, and don't care about career or image, my mind can feel restless, even when I'm not thinking, almost like it's running in the background, trying to make sense of that mess my mind and the outside.
Seems pretty N for the last 2 : p IEI would typically talk about this more than EIE overall but idk if this is decisive for type on its own.Quote:
-One of my worst traits is that I can get pretty impatient
-Even though I have a moral sense of right and wrong, and I'll speak out, if I think something is not okay, I try to look at the situation, and I rarely condemn people. Sometimes I have a weird feeling that I could even go into hell, and meet an interesting interlocutor who acts/used to act like a monster, as I would care more about the interesting thoughts
-I feel I am very open-minded, and can emphatize with people in many different positions. I appreciate kindness in myself and other people greatly
Stuff I mentioned above is more decisive for it.
The bolded sounds Irrationality, you don't actually find it matters that much to be able to close things up even if you may want and need closure sometimes in some situations (like everyone would at times). This is what shows preference, IMO, beyond just situational approaches that are not overarching preferences. Again, what you said at the start of your post, with how this openness is the most important to you... this lines up with that obviously.Quote:
Edit: I read some of @Owl 's posts and I see the similarities too. I also wanted to add more about how I am with decision making.
- I have a hard time making up my mind, therefore I leave many things open, and I often try to calm myself with the fact that "still many options are open, many things are undecided, and therefore I have chances left". Knowing things for certain can be great comfort, but I think I won't go neurotic, if something is left opened for a while. I know I will always find something that will make me torn apart, or be unsure of, so it doesn't really matter in the end.
Edit 2: Mos EJs I've known were restless, active and have a great amount of energy. One I used to see was upset when all I wanted to do was sit or lie somewhere, and just talk. Wanted to go outside, do things, take a walk, after a few hours get into another bar, etc. I can really enjoy very long and deep conversations, while just staying in one place.
I was outside today in a crowd for 2 hours, and almost died from people fcking getting close to me, touching, yelling, etc. I won't ever leave my house again.
As for the Ej bit: I've known EIE-Ni to be pretty ambiverted but yes, they (the ones I've seen that I am 100% sure are EIE-Ni) would still have the restlessness like that half of the time. (Spaced-out look for the other half of the time, but switching between being active and this mode pretty fast and decently often.)
Yes, both can be psychological issues if it goes beyond what's normal for you.Quote:
If it helps, I think I'm 4w5. I've changed a lot throughout the years, and that my intense emotions or my lack of motivation can both come from psychological issues.
4 can make sense. Also, 1 for Gut triad, maybe. : p
So all in all, I'd lean towards IEI for you at this point, though that EIE-H description seems like a surprisingly good match too for you. :confused2:
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@Kara going to respond in detail later today :)
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One thing that might be worth considering is that if you don't get along well with EIIs because you just don't understand what the other is talking about, that suggests IEI more likely than EIE. EIIs and IEIs are quasi-identicals, and misunderstandings are the major theme there http://www.socionics.com/rel/qid.htm Otherwise yes, you do seem like an IEI type, to me at least. The major world view of IEIs is that reality is continually changing, and circumstances/relationships/things won't stay constant for long...They seem to sense the coming changes long before they happen...So this is a cautious type, hesitant to pin themselves to anything they don't see as 100% solid. That's why they like Se assertiveness from other people, which proves to them that their partner's intentions are firm enough to stand the test of time. You seem to want some certainty from the outside world, which is characteristic of IEI.
IEIs also are very perceptive of the underlying motivations of people, in my experience. They also can judge other's feelings easily. You sound like you have this ability.
Just some thoughts. Take it for what it's worth :)
OK so I thought about some things, it was good for myself too to consider some stuff, you brought up good points too. :)
:) I do think there should be an Absolute Truth (idealized) that we can't reach though, just get closer to it. It's a goal of objectivity for me at least, but this does include that everything should be discovered without closing eyes / going into denial about stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kara
Not sure how much Ethics lead can detach from their feelings, but regardless of that, what I meant was whether you are going by your emotions directly or just viewing them as any other thing or variable that can be perceived, looked at, imagined, have hunches about. That is, I find Fe bases don't talk much as about emotions in a perceptive-reflective-analytical manner as much as just make decisions and act based on them. They do of course talk about what they feel, but it's less about how they view or imagine what they feel, it's not just an image of a feeling, but more the feelings/emotions/ethical judgments themselves. If it's any clearer this way...?Quote:
I can detach easily from my emotions, I learnt how to, but I'm not sure if this is what you thought of. I found that many of my emotions come from wounds from the past - I want to take them as signals, but not being a slave to them. I usually see where an emotion is coming from, and if it has the promise of something new, that I would understand this way, I try to immerse myself in it. I usually listen to my hunches too, but I can usually tell what is actually something important that is giving me insight, and what is a bad reflex from the past. I had very strong emotions as a child, and my detachment can be a from of accodomation to the world, but maybe my brainset just changed. I kind of miss these intense feelings somehow, but what I mostly appreciated about them were the insights and some form of connection with the unknown - and I still have these, fortunately, only in different ways.
BTW you sound like you did a lot of self-analysis for emotion management and to understand them better. I actually agree btw based on such, that it seems good to approach feelings that way, to see if it's new information or not. Not that I can always easily say as to what's just a "bad reflex from the past". :o
I know an IEI (selftyped as that) forum member who said the same btw about having had more intense emotions as a child then not seeing a point to any longer...
:thinking: With this I'm thinking back to the first part of your (and my) post. It does require a certain mindset IMO to keep looking. :content: (BTW this is all very reflective to me, good grounds for a bit more philosophizing lol)Quote:
Sometimes I think about how it's quite sad that these rough edges not only polish us, but make us rough. I just want to stay brave, and go towards what I think is a hole in the veil that's covering our eyes.
"We're losing the Moon"
Sometimes it scares me where I will end up with this mindset, and what am I going to touch that will possess me. But I'm not a saint, and never will be.
OK, let me know if the above helped. I will also explain a bit more below with some more concrete examples (where I'll talk about advantages/disadvantages of IEIs vs EIEs). If that's not making it clear enough, feel free to ask about it (if you got any specific questions).Quote:
I'm not quite sure I understand this, could you explain it a little more?
:lol: I didn't have that much self-awareness when younger lol, but yeah it kind of got like this since then. Once I started focusing on this topic, I did eventually get to see my internal stuff like that lol. I have some pretty neat understanding of it though who knows if it would make sense to anyone else. =)) And ofc there is still always more to understand of myself.Quote:
I've always envied the ability of seeing yourself as a little mechanical watch, ticking and how all those parts come together. Not like a huge, blurry picture of a thousand fragments, pieces of mirrors, saying "hey, we are all you".
NFs like that (the bolded). :shock: BTW, SLE-Ti supposedly has its own version of that coldness and privateness.Quote:
That's a good point (that no match is perfect). I think what caused me problems while befriending LSIs was some sort of awkwardness sometimes in social situations. I'm fine with it, and have my own shortcoming as well, but for some reason it made me feel less attracted. But I really do like other qualities of theirs (logic, going into dephts and great details, paying full attention to something, that they can seem a bit cold or secretive etc.)
How did you perceive the awkwardness, what is it like? Just the LSIs being too quiet and seeming like they ignore other people too easily? That's something I've been told before lol and I've seen other LSIs described that way too.
I thought about this a bit to be able to sum it up well, and I think this will also be some good examples about that distinction about that Ethics leads focus on the feelings and resulting ethical judgments themselves while Intuitive leads just perceive them all at first among other variables - in practice this plays out in a distinctly different way with IEI vs EIE for me.Quote:
Can you tell me what are the things that IEIs don't have or bother you, when you compare them to EIEs?
For example, I might have a problem or be confused about something regarding feelings (without even knowing it :lol: ), and I find EIE just tells me "oh it's X emotion", or encourages me for an action that needs positive emotion, simply by them being so positive and emotional about it (actions related to relationships... more complex relations than just social interaction though), while IEI says other suggestions, analyse it a bit, or even at length if they feel like it, give me whatever deeper advice or images on what they think about the problem. I like to hear what IEIs say about these deep things and other things lol but EIE gets me out of my head with this. I just don't have to analyse so much then. EIEs also have me involved with emotions (of theirs mainly, lol) even if I'm just hearing them out from a little "distance", it's still easy for me to activate myself, e.g. for ideas brought up on what to do or what problem needs sorting, I'll just really quickly decide on what to do and sort it out. I have to get selective there though with EIEs lol, they easily respond emotionally to many things. Another aspect of this is I find the way they talk is just about things in the world (extraversion I guess) and it's all emotionally loaded details from my pov (probably not the same details from their pov :) ), and I just automatically put it together in my head, making sense of it all, easy to organize it all, which can be helpful to the EIE, yet I'm also not being too deep in my head because the emotional side is also active in the background. I don't get directly emotional for long at a time, it's all in the background, this is hard to explain though. So I get given a job for my Ti and enjoy the Fe at the same time. So that just seems like the optimal mode of functioning for me. Also they can make ideas for goals emotionally charged in a way that it can stay like that for a long time for me until I reached that goal. It's sort of an "emotional vision", because it's got an emotional charge to it as the motivation even if I don't pay attention to that. E.g. "achieve this goal because it will just be so good because (x reason)". That's a simplification from my pov, for the EIE it's more complex emotional stuff than that.
So IEIs don't have any of the above. That doesn't bother me though, I don't expect everyone to be an EIE lol. And I can listen forever to Ni stuff too/have a pretty high tolerance for such input, it's just that Fe ends up more directly and more quickly useful to me in real life.
As for things that are issues somewhat. First the things that are not true issues, but somewhat disadvantages compared to EIE: IEIs come off vague as contrasted to the concreteness of EIEs, again though this isn't a true issue for me, just sometimes it causes temporary confusion so I take too long to resolve that and get in my head too much in the process. But sometimes I end up in nice places with it so it's actually good then. :lol: I get to see some things more conceptually refined, I see more meaning in some things, and that's inspiring and positive etc. Related to this, I find if there's too much of "just talk" about emotions in an imaginative way this actually is very beautiful and inspiring to me but - compared to EIE - hard for me to activate myself on it long term and so I may end up nowhere with it, though if I do manage to make myself go and create a decision based on the inspiration - AND then I do not allow myself to forget but actually put it into my actual concrete plans - it does get useful in real life even if the effect comes more slowly than with EIEs.
Then there are some communication issues arising from Ni vs Ti focus and that's one area where I get out of sync with IEIs. Just both the IEI and me getting stuck in really introverted views that run parallel to each other, with each one being stubborn against the other one's input (slow to update Ni HA vs Ti HA, too), and hard to move on from there, I get dismissive from a logical pov about new perspectives/ideas and IEI gets dismissive about accepting my perceptions or reasonings, so arguments can result that actually easily go on for a while once started. On the whole I don't mind these arguments, but if not careful (when not yet aware of this dynamics), it can kill the mood in the relations for a while (for the IEIs at least - and IEI won't restore emotional flow like EIE will). I think some IEIs (not all of them?) also feel too criticized on their Ti HA even when I definitely am being careful about not sounding critical.
Also out of sync with Se/Fe and Rationality/Irrationality in some things. I find if I get upset about something (not necessarily upset about the IEI), they don't easily fix that emotionally. They can instead get too detached or they just don't say much. Then there can be an issue with them wanting more spontaneity instead of "obligations" or planned "prods" from me, e.g. about what things to do. Or just my bit of planning (I don't overplan!) in general can get confining to them. :o Also because, as I'm told by one IEI, they will keep thinking with their Ni lead that if I made some request, unless I tell them that I changed it, it just stays that way and it can keep bothering them! - they just make predictions of things in this manner, repeating things will be expected again unless external change is obvious. And, overall, initially there may be a lot of activity, but then they drop their Fe input too easily while I drop the Se input too easily too after a while, meaning we just both go kind of passively introverted before getting some burst of energy again. The active part can last a while though if the IEI is extraverted enough with enough motivation for the situation and for things to do overall.
I think all this can be solved by compromises if there is enough awareness of the issues. And for the last part about there being too much introversion, that's solved too if there are enough ideas/things to do to engage with, so this one is easy enough to solve without having to have that deep awareness of sync issues etc. :lol: Though I guess some awareness still helps even then. I know it helps me.
OK that would be the thing about having the emotionality from the EIE running in the background cognitively. :lol: I would not call it "very happy" in most cases though, that sounds like overkill for just simple positive expressions lol (though you can debate it's not simple expressions when it comes from an EIE lol). Maybe just the contrast seems great compared to default state? I would be "very happy" if it is indeed something to be very happy about. I work the same as most people emotionally regarding this, I understand what's a thing that truly is very good and special to be very happy about and what's just simply a positive mood in the moment. But again, I guess that contrast thing must make it look a big thing... I noticed this from beta NFs (IEI and EIE alike actually) that they thought I was more affected by emotional stuff than I actually was. In a sense it might really be a big thing with that contrast but at the same time I am aware that it's just a reaction in the moment. So I don't see the need to put much stock into it like they would. All in all, sure, emotional expressions can catch my attention like that but it always being a NEED is a strong word lol. It also lasts me a while if I had some emotional input in a situation.Quote:
I think I read about this on the forum, where people were mentioning how LSIs like emotionality from EIEs, and it charges them. I also saw this around LSIs and maybe even LIIs, how they became suddenly very happy and responsive when I showed warm emotions, friendliness, talking way more emotionally or dramatic, like it caught their attention and made them feel almost... happy? But I feel awkward because of this, that they need this to react this way. I think with the SLE I know it's a bit different - he doesn't need these bits of emotions to be energetic and responsive, and it's nice, because whenever I'm not jumping around (it's quite rare), or maybe even when I'm down, they can make me laugh and more energetic.
If you are IEI then maybe it also bothers you that the LxI after the initial moments of interaction seemingly starts waiting for Fe input and it seemingly passivates them? That's happened to me before in some circumstances with IEIs. But again, it has a solution like described above (be aware, decide consciously on some things to do, on initiation for them, just be in a place where there are things to do, or have a good topic to talk about, etc).
What makes you feel awkward, is it like some expectation you feel? I heard/noticed IEIs will try to adjust with their emotional expressions / mood management to the other person's mood first and foremost and don't initiate the mood themselves. That's good for SLE because they get "stuck" in their emotions, while LSI doesn't really pull up emotions for long so there is not much for the IEI to react to. Do you relate to having this issue with LSIs? This would be one of the main decisive factors for type.
I think it was slightly awkward to me too sometimes with IEIs when I didn't know what else to say even though I thought the IEI was very interesting :lol: (not necessarily romantically... this happened more than once both with guys and with girls). Though that would be more like initial difficulties. Relaxing about it would help lol. Regardless of all that, I would get along pretty well with IEIs (both guy and girl) when we had strong mutual interests to do together.
So again, as for "need this to react this way", um, I would not say I NEED the emotional stuff all the time, really, I'm fine with other activities or just talking too if it's a good topic (though I personally prefer doing activities, as talking drains me after a while).
As for being energetic and responsive, I'm all that easily without Fe too if there is some activity to engage with that I'm interested in. With an IEI (or IxI-Ni but I think IEI) once we kept engaging in competitive activities all the time lol, and it was real fun. That IEI was really low in emotional expression yet it was thorough fun to do this. I do think of LSI-Ti in the way you describe though, I hardly ever see my LSI-Ti friend as energetic lol... he's really controlled instead. But he will also readily engage in competition lol and he's able to do activities just fine, just they are pretty planned out (still not overkill planned out tho', from my pov) and repetitive a bit.
I do think that your observation about SLE vs LSI is good though, I'm not as spontaneous and especially not for long to find activities all the time let alone make the other person laugh all the time. If I get lucky I can do that but it's short attempts lol, that's me though, some other LSIs probably are better at keeping up humorous notes. Probably dependent on how social they are etc too. As for activities though, I really am good with that if there are enough ideas on what to do. I have an adventurous streak even. I could exhaust my IEI-Fe ex with always wanting to go somewhere like I said lol.
So clearly a lot of this is just beta NF vs beta ST stuff, but what I said about manipulation of emotionality and manner of relating to the beta ST's emotions or lack of them is a pretty deciding factor for IEI vs EIE.
In any case I don't think LSI-Ti is your dual. :shifty:
Also... for even more refined analysis lol, you earlier saidI do enjoy "leading" in ST things for EIE-Ni too if they let me (I think that happens on a closer distance?). Like even just with navigating around I like to lead the way. :) And (I've been told so) I put EIEs in the Se present. IDK if I do that to IEIs though. And I like the mysticalness, EIEs have it too, but somehow it's different from them than from IEIs. It's like... IEIs keep being mystical and it's a bit distant to me - also maybe due to their feelings being more submerged - though also fascinating and good in many ways, while EIEs just show a mood/emotion and then it can pass to me along with the Ni imagination they have attached to it and then I can pick up on that too. Does this make sense?Quote:
I am very grateful for their initiation and energy, as I can relax, and just enjoy that they "lead me" in a way. I enjoy being mystical around them, and even when I was younger my ultimate flirt technique was to play it cool and mysterious (cringe, I know). I don't like when someone wants me to charge them emotionally, it makes me feel uncomfortable. I like giving depht, weird thoughts, meaning, and maybe inspire people to free self-expression.
The last part about free self-expression, I think that probably is tailored to SLEs, depending on what you mean by it, I guess. I can only do such a thing very indirectly (either via logical presentation of my thoughts or via sensory impact e.g. my dressing). I can't and won't strive to do it directly emotionally. Did you mean it more in the emotional sense?
Overall I also get the sense that you are a bit on the isolated-asocial side, and so you especially seek sociable people? For which SLE is of course better than LSI on the whole :p, even if this is not entirely type related. Like I mentioned, I've known pretty positive and actually very sociable IEIs who have been involved in life and with people a lot.
You sound very Intuitive-Irrational compared to those Ej friends.Quote:
I find my EJ friends do this very fast, they make up their mind, and it's usually me who then introduces another perspective, that makes them doubtful. This even happens when I have an argument, and I start to play the devil's advocate - not because I'm trolling, but because I start to doubt myself. I like having closed ends after I'm sure it's the right way, of course to grief many things and maybe start something new, you have to let things go, and after that healing can happen. But I can change my mind randomly about things, and open up things that were closed. But this seems like just a very human thing to me in the end.
Hm how do you relate closure to grieving and healing?
I don't like to "change my mind randomly about things, and open up things that were closed". :hide::lol: But I guess if someone brings up a good point, that's fine to consider. I relate in how I will evaluate for pretty long really in some matters. I find EIEs actually make decisions too fast compared to me in some things lol.
Np :)Quote:
Edit: I also appreciate your detailed post and all of your time, again.
PS:
Yeah, that's the interesting part (and you are like Owl again with this), because IEI-SLE duality descriptions say that IEI gives positivity to the SLE. :content: Positive moods, lifting their spirits, trust in a positive future. But I think if you otherwise relate to the IEI side of things as I outlined, this is some extra factor beyond type...? Let me know, I'm curious how you relate to the decisive factors for typing (F vs N leading, and that emotionality adjustment, etc..).Quote:
Edit 2: What I meant me jumping around, I referred.to.ot that it's qiute rare from me to ger overhyped from energy, and I'm often melancholic or a bit restrained. SLEs can help me with feeling more joyful.
A lot of this is just beta NF really. EIEs are also way more cautious in some things where I am not. :shock: And where IEI would be more happy-go-lucky too, actually. I've had my EIE-Ni friend have a lot of misunderstandings with an EII-Ne. Though yes I agree OP seems to lean towards IEI more so far.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xaiviay
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Well understanding chaos would definitely put us really close to understanding everything :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kara
That does sound like a good approach really... I do think anyone who gets too sunk in feelings in some situations would do well with this advice and resources to gain such understanding...Quote:
Oh, no way. I need to think a lot about something, and ask maybe someone who I think would have a different perspective than me before I would act on a feeling. But this could be something I learnt while I was growing up – I realized this is a way better way to deal with anything*. I also tend to analyze a lot what I feel, try to see the source of it (sometimes even behind myself, look for archetypical examples), and I grind a lot about something before I make up my mind. I have some people I trust and know what is their forte – I discuss these matters with them sometimes.
Yeah I would also prefer a way to be able to use theories together. Socionics model of course won't cover everything about people's workings, it would just be a valid model to explain certain things while the rest are explained by other models.Quote:
(*This is actually one thing we were discussing with @Sol before – one’s „type” can be just different factors of other theories put together – what would make for example a Socionics theory more valid than I don’t know, combining astrology, childhood attachment, enneagram, human design etc.? Something won’t be more valid, because it’s one theory, maybe that one theory will explain 95% of you, while four other combined will explain 98%.)
I understand. As far as type would you relate to the description of seeing emotions as some variables among many other variables and treating them as such? You seem that way to me from your descriptions here.Quote:
Also, even if I feel something intensely, I immediately see this could be just an emotional reaction, and not something I should act upon. Another thing I could add is that I often feel that my personal struggles are of everyone’s – I see issues I have on micro and macro levels, how it’s something as a law in my surroundings, universally, archetypically, etc. People had a hard time sometimes understanding that these issues I have, moral questions, for example are not „things I think about when I’m randomly bored”, they are part of me in a way that I can’t cut myself off from all these questions as I feel they live inside me and you, and nothing is ever separated from us in the end. This doesn’t necessarily make me very emotional, I just feel that there are hidden things everywhere, connected, and everyone lives in them, and it frustrates me when someone ignores this.
Oh, ok, btw that IEI explicitly said she doesn't see the point. I tried to tell her there is a point sometimes :)Quote:
I see the point of having strong emotions, I just feel way more stable as an adult, and I feel I can also penetrate just as deep into the unknown. I wouldn’t compare to having strong emotions though to Fe-lead (but you wrote about this as well, about what is the difference), I think there are just sensitive people, and they have to get accustomed to the world, which often leads us to get a bit numb or tougher.
Glad it helped!Quote:
You did, the first paragraph about the Ethics lead and Ni lead was a very interesting read.
Lol like what awkward ways? :)Quote:
It seemed like to me they were trying to connect in a group situation, but sometimes it happens in an awkward way, that made it a bit cringey, haha.
Oh I want to clarify a bit first. EIE instantly names the most relevant emotion for the situation like that and IEI may analyse the situation at length including even analyses on how feelings of people in it work but IEI doesn't tend to manage to grasp the main factor for what emotional stuff is going on for the situation like EIE does. They instead understand what Ni events are going on etc. And I believe this shows very well the cognitive difference between Fe lead vs Fe not being in leading position. For EIE that's what they will focus on first so they will see how to simplify the Fe aspect of the situation and IEI focuses on something else instead - the Ni hunches of perceiving what the situation is like in a mental way.Quote:
I think this is something I can see as a difference between my ESE and IEI friends. My ESE friend tries to emotionally strengthen me and validating what I feel, get angry with me, etc., praise me to make me feel better, tell me she loves me and supports me etc. It gives me a nice emotional comfort, but it’s not enough. What I need is my IEI friend, with him we go into huge discussions about metaphors, feelings, analyzing what is coming from where, how does it affect something else, we sometimes just say half sentences or metaphors and get what a whole situation is about, so we can help each other a lot. He also feels what the person does whom he is talking with, then tells it to them. „Look, I feel really anxious and scared, and I think this is how you feel”. It happens to me too, when I talk to someone.
Where you say "Look, I feel really anxious and scared, and I think this is how you feel", yeah I think this is more an IEI expression of what emotions/feelings are at play in the situation. EIE would be more like... "This is so scary" or "I'm having a panic attack now" (the last one is an actual example lol, it was also a bit of an exaggeration), or "Oh that's just feeling sorry for him" (actual example again). I think the IEI version is usually expressed in a more introverted and more analytical way, "I feel..." or "This event [here abstract details of event come] is happening leading to this feeling and this feeling is like this and this". The "I feel..." stuff makes me go a bit more introverted focusing inwards too to my internal states, a bit extra-reflective too, and the situation/events/feelings analysis is like a very reflective mood comes on for me. While EIE would actually get even exaggerated about what emotion they are focused on.
I think EIEs will also get into analyzing that you say you like to do with your IEI friend, but they remain more with the concrete actions and emotional states with not much focus on "I feel" and also relatively less focus on linking abstract details of events together. So when EIE is analyzing in a convo it happens more like they say these actions and emotions and along with these they will just bring up shorter linkages of the abstract detail and metaphors, along with good - even if quick and short compared to IEI :lol: - intuitive summaries of stuff going on.
About your ESE friend, I don't think I've been close to any ESE like this, I find EIE can do some positive input too like that but they are not really mollycoddling emotionally like that. :lol: That's fine by me really, I don't need to be emotionally strengthened by others (in the way I interpret this concept), that mightbe more a LII thing, I do want some positive emotional expressions of course, anyone would, but they do not need to be too often directed at me in this way and I'm fine with negative expressions too, can even be almost fun drama as long as it's about some problem other than me, ofc if I'm involved too that's less comfortable :p. By fun drama I don't mean I don't take it seriously... it just takes my attention. Makes me more engaged in problem solving and so that's also more effective... Anyway overall ESEs repress negative expressions about things more often than EIEs, afaik. Though I find EIE also doesn't necessarily put it into your face either if they have a problem with you, it's a sort of conflict avoidance I noticed with some of them. Unless it's actually a bad ethical violation, then they will be in your face fine. All in all, about positivity, I said earlier that where positive emotional input from EIE helps is for motivating me towards dealing with some complex relationship stuff. On my own I can only confront such situations if I really get forced to or if I make myself kick myself in the ass and do it finally instead of procrastinating. :content:
Hmm, interesting about the painting. I have no idea about IEI vs EIE in this area as to how their Ni+Fe vs Fe+Ni looks like. :) Though where you say you build the pictures of hunches it sounds like you are more focusing on a Ni picture rather than Fe picture.Quote:
I think it takes me usually a few seconds to see why is someone feeling in a way about something, this can happen with strangers too, because I get an overall picture and feeling about them (I can be wrong though). This usually comes with just a simple thought, or a big picture – if it’s more complex. Think about a huge painting that you encounter, it pops up from nowhere, and then you have to describe the colors of it, maybe the objects if you see more. Like basically you build a picture out of hunches, and I feel when it’s spot-on. Most of the time. I talk about this, and then tell and advice. I have to make a plus effort to comfort people emotionally, like telling them they are good, I love them, it will be fine, they can do it, they are the best etc. I want them to understand what is happening, and I can get very frustrated, if we don’t get at the bottom of it. Almost like I have a shovel, and I am just digging and digging, even if it gets more and more painful. Sometimes this can happen in a way that I make a blunt statement if I don’t have any emotional energies left, and leave it at there. Then take a big sigh, and say something comforting and nice, haha.
And yeah that kind of emotional comfort I never needed. :) Lol the digging though... sounds like you'd be good therapist material. :) (I mean, working as a therapist ofc.)
It makes sense, not sure if EIEs connect it all in their heads, in their talk such links don't always seem to be expressed or implied though sometimes yes. So how they talk about stuff emotionally, it's just they have emotional expressions for stuff they talk about, things they mention are just emotionally charged due to that, and I suppose the stuff they talk about has emotional significance. Yeah, political correctness is a good example of an issue they can discuss. :)Quote:
Hm, yes, I can see that, and understand. I think the advice I give are long term ones as well, trying to provide solutions for what I found as a core problem.
How do they talk about the world emotionally? For example there are sometimes things I can be passionate about (for example the whole charade of political correctness, but I usually connect everything outside with everything else, and also myself in the end, if that makes sense.
Yeah lol :shifty:Quote:
For example: Ah, they forbid the use of pictures of swastikas or guns. This will make it even worse, as all things forbidden are more alluring as things that are discussed (patterns+self experience).
Ah your mind must be interesting too lol. For me what helps is that whenever I get some insight on my inner stuff, I try to keep to logical regularities in viewing them and put them together in explanations of mechanisms. Just keeping consistency with this. Lol I don't know if that helps... it kind of does mean dissecting things to be able to see those regularities in a strict way (instead of things falling apart) where you would default to seeing the insights for themselves (instead of the "soulless" dissecting :lol: jk about "soulless" ofc).Quote:
By the way it’s so interesting to me how detailed you see your inner mechanism. Mine feels like a huge abstract painting with random insights, but when I try to get to a conclusion, everything collapses, and I am not sure about it anymore.
The kind of concreteness I meant is about the focus being on emotions/actions/objects* themselves, I gave examples above for this. Let me know if it helps. ...Agreed on words being inadequate. I read somewhere that this is a Beta sentiment :lol:Quote:
This is very interesting, could you tell me examples? I think I’m usually concrete, but there are things that can only be told with metaphors, weird pictures and feelings, or even without words. Words are not always something we can trust, as they can rob us from many informations. This is why I write many poems - they can express more obscure feelings I have sometimes.
*: This is supposed to be Extraversion + Rationality. Rationality in terms of how it's not just "undefined" perceptions but specific actions/emotions/things, and along with Extraversion it's the direct focus on "who", "what", "where" instead of associative perceptions or introverted analyses about these.
That is a pretty good description there lol. I do see SLEs going for Ni vs me being more reserved like that. I said I can listen to Ni stuff for pretty long, literally even hours, but I do have to put it all through a logic filter first so I don't easily get actively engaged with it. If I manage to logic it out or translate it at least to my own terms I can add quite some stuff actually though, think of it as me suddenly jumping in and swimming very fast - for a short time though lol. :) And yeah I don't think that bothers IEIs if I'm reserved like that, I think the problem with me vs IEIs is more like when - in some more important matters I guess - the IEI does want to pull me into the lake so I can see what they do, and I'm to follow without resistance what they are seeing with their Ni vs me doing the same with Ti to them. I'm curious actually, have you got examples of how SLE gets into that lake with you?Quote:
I understand the issue, although I think I’m rarely insecure about my logics. I only get frustrated, when someone doesn’t understand the step-to-step logic I’m explaining, or dismisses me without thinking further, but I think that would bother anyone. With LSIs what bothered me sometimes was that I felt they couldn’t be okay with some ideas of mine that required actually leaving logic behind, and getting confused. I enjoy getting confused sometimes, as I feel it’s a different state of mind, where I can swim in pictures and weird hunches, but I feel while I’m swimming in a lake somewhere, they stand on the side, looking at me puzzled, while trying to put their toe into the water. But this never really hurt me.
With Se-doms the issue that can rise is that they doesn’t really get emotionally involved in my ideas, and maybe forget about them in the next minute. But they are always very open-minded, and can get with me into that lake. They just say after 10 minutes „hey, do you wanna eat something now?”, meanwhile I’m having some catharsis about the meaning of life, haha.
Ah that's weird lol, I don't get it: if it's not arranged last minute then it's not necessarily an obligation you hate? What does that depend on? Lol btw I can be fine with last minute ideas if I'm not busy with some other tasks/obligations.Quote:
I’m a tough one in this matter. I hate obligations, because I can guarantee you I will change my mind 40 times before we meet, but I also hate when someone asks me to do something last minute. My SEE and IEI friend love randomly going out, my SLE one hates it when people show up without saying anything beforehand.
I do say it later if it's no longer important (if it was some request or idea I wanted done), but maybe I don't always get to say it clear enough...Quote:
I mean, if you say something, and then doesn’t say anything about it later, isn’t it obvious they will believe it’s still a thing? I can get so cautious if anyone mentions anything – I always keep it in mind, putting it into the picture I have of them and feel weird, when they tell me suddenly that this is not an actually serious thing, or not anymore.
Hmm for me idk if it is necessarily about feeling better, bc I'm mostly usually in an emotionally neutral state. Not a negative state by default under normal circumstances. And like I said maybe it looks like craving but it's not. :lol: Though sure positive stuff doesn't hurt.Quote:
I get what you mean. I’m really aware how my emotions might affect someone, but I can ignore this totally. I can have no facial expression at all, or my tone can sound rude (according to my SEE friend), so maybe this is one reason why I feel it forced to show many positive emotions, when I just don’t have it naturally. I feel this frustration almost, like „I will decide when and what I will show, I will not make you feel better, just because you crave it”. But even though I say this, most of the time, I think I’m very kind to people, who approach me, and try to be friendly, and can get very chatty. I think I just feel weird when I have to prove my passion or how much something means to me by making a whole dramatic scene, and my thoughts are not enough for you.
As for your last sentence, ah well yeah for LxI some stuff just doesn't register as effectively if there is no emotional expression with it. Like I explained earlier. It's interesting you feel an expectation from LxIs about proving your passion. :shock:
Ohh no I don't think I feel butthurt about someone not being expressive or engaging or positive enough lol. But I've seen Fe egos before (idk if Fe base or not for those people specifically) who told me they do like it if people react positively like that to their expressions...Quote:
Yes, it bothers me, I think. Not necessarily the initiation, but if someone is unmotivated or even butthurt (an ESE I know) because I don't react positively and emotionally charged. When I have to do it though, I feel in charge, because I feel I know what I do, but the fact that it’s so obvious to me how I could get someone’s attention and make them feel nice makes it a bit frustrating to me. I enjoy when it’s less obvious. Of course, I can make an effort, if someone is important to me.
Yes, this happened to me on dates with LSIs. I saw how they almost mimicked me, and it bothered me, because it was not… more original, or less obvious? More spontaneous, maybe?
And lol hm mimicking, you mean mirroring?
Yeah, that they seemed to go into themselves so much, and then I kind of felt something about how I need to be doing something to shake them up. Haha maybe it's like you feeling expectations to provide Fe while it's me feeling expectations to provide Se... idk :) will have to think about this. I can do some of the Se of course but in these cases I felt like I need to do it more and that'd have been forced at that point. Also, even when I do some of the Se "shake-up" in a natural fashion, it can feel like it was not enough and I need to do more. Then sometimes it's enough and that's good. For this issue though, my earlier notes on how to deal with it do help. Relaxing and not feeling like I need to do more than natural definitely helps too. One more interesting note here is that I don't think I felt this issue/awkwardness like this in periods when I was more socially involved with people overall/in general, so that also helps... Probably dual seeking is also more satisfied in those periods and less strong. You calling it a "craving" comes to mind again, I think if it truly seems like that then it's no longer a natural thing either.Quote:
What was awkward to you, their lack of initiation?
Yeah, LSI-Ti friend gets SUPER focused. I do too but he is extreme I think. :lol: It's more a LSI than a SLE thing yes, like you describe it. You again seem like you (ideally) prefer a more spontaneous approach than what even the Se subtype of LSI would give.Quote:
Yes, I know these types. Competing is fun indeed, but I think I like taking it less seriously, than getting super focused. With my SLE friend we usually laugh a lot, pick on each other in the meantime, swear, and do competitions more „playfully”. Sometimes I can go a bit more serious, but when I fuck up something, I laugh a lot about my stupidity.
:pQuote:
Yes, I can easily imagine LSIs doing wilder stuff as well, if there is an initiation or idea from someone.
Umm can you say what you mean by going a route as contrasted to doing an activity?Quote:
It makes sense, and sounds very interesting to me. The only way I can relate to it, is I met LSIs before, who were leading in a way, buti t was more about „which route we should go”, not „which activity we should do”. I can be super hesitant about these things, so it doesn’t help, but I appreciate the route stuff.
And yeah I'm not so much about taking charge about what activity to do when it's just for fun... for that I do prefer if the other party shows what they feel like doing, too. There are exceptions to this too ofc.
I've seen that with both IEI and EIE yeah.Quote:
Someone also told me before that I look mystical or zoomed out, and my SEE mentioned in a rough period of my life that I’m basically having a wall up, and he has no idea how to approach me – nothing touched me, emotionally or otherwise, I just didn’t care about anything. I was not necessarily depressed, but tired.
Lol this was very IEI. :)Quote:
I think what I meant is that I read many of them feel that they are inappropriate and not diplomatical. Well, I like that they are inappropriate, and one of them told me before, that they are too bold for others, and very offensive. I find it funny, and don’t really care. If it causes huge trouble, for example someone is really getting hurt, I can quietly intervene, and soften it.
The cases where I saw EIEs intervene for ethical issues, it was never quiet, lol. That's an understatement. They get realllly passionate and actually mad crazy with how they will attack the person without a worry for possible danger etc. :hide::cool:
Anyway yeah this seems SLE specific too, with the stuff you encourage for self-expression there. LSI and most other types would not feel that comfortable at that.
But how consistently does the SEE stay on track with the judgment?Quote:
Yes, I agree. I like that the world is opened around me in a way. Although my SEE friend can also get very decisive or judgmental in a very short period, and make up her mind.
This is specifically about people related matters I guess?Quote:
It takes time, and after you closed something, it will open up from time to time, and grief will come in waves, but it’s just natural, and one should go with it.
Latter part sounds interesting :lol:Quote:
There are topics when I know from some kind of insight what I believe in, and I get stubborn, but I think I always analyze the other’s point of view, and maybe even get unsure, or see how many views could fit together. In crazy moments I end up with some form of colorful abomination of an interesting theory.
As for "see how many views could fit together", sounds like Ni in the way you put it.
Ah yes that actually makes sense providing positivity in this manner for Ni dual seeking. I've seen *not* depressed and not gloomy IEIs btw! They do exist! :DQuote:
It’s so bizarre to me. I’ve never really met an IEI who wasn’t depressed or gloomy or melancholic, let alone upbeat. It’s such a bizarre picture to me. What I know I can provide though is a belief in values, like redemption, change etc. Maybe this is what they mean?
All in all... Do you feel you got any closer to typing yourself? You said some really IEI things above, what would you see as EIE possibly for yourself?
One thing I want to mention about that: I noticed there's (of course lol) more than one opinion floating around about what an EIE vs an IEI is... I would say that I found that N vs F distinction and the stricter requirement/criteria for IEI having a very open mind for quite original/"weird" perspectives seeing everything else through them vs EIE having enough continuous emotional expression (except for special cases like severel depression of course... I mean as a default preference) is what works to explain interactions for me. This is true even in the cases of "Creative" subtypes who could otherwise seem between the two types, with having many traits of both types - the Base function will still set enough constraints to "assert" it's the leading function over the Creative. The looser approaches where some type people as IEI or as EIE based on some aspects or traits that are at least somewhat associated with IEI or EIE stereotypically - while there is nothing proving that a more feely-moody IEI or even other types couldn't have some traits of EIE, or that EIE couldn't have quite some traits of IEI - don't actually work well for me. Definitionally that means to me that e.g. Fe base is driven by the emotional expressiveness with emotional charge and passion consistently and an ethically more rigid attitude about things, and it's not simply an interest in feelings or talking about them enough or sometimes being really dramatic for different purposes etc. And similar strong criteria for Ni base... etc. All in all, I personally used to not separate this criteria so clearly, especially because I was using examples of people who were probably mistyped in actuality (IEI typed as EIE etc) until I managed to put a lot of observed things more in order and I find this more strict and streamlined defining of the types, dropping the less specific details/traits/etc, provides more explanatory power. Maybe this sounds simple but the point really is the strictness in keeping to these main distinctions, as so often the discussions on type seem to get lost in less specific details/traits.
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wow that's the most impressive line by line call and response ive ever seen
The EIE women I know very often express high extroversion, for example taking up the voice in front of many people, and other things involving many people. Large amount of people is like a trigger to act.
The IEI-Fe is not like that, but shows some extroversion as well, but a lot less in bold ways. For example, hosts parties at home every week and becomes everyone good friend and talks a lot of stuff with everyone but it's not leading voice like EIE is.
EIE usually VIs very well just like for taylor swift or benedict cumberbatch. The extraverted intuitive type with feeling and rational is very characteristic.
I dunno taylor as EIE is probably controversial so I don't think its that obvious
But on this website she got highest number of votes for EIE and I agree with it very much. The votes for other logical types where ridiculous. There were big posters of her for few years around my work so I could see all details of her face mon-fri.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bertrand
Also what I have heard is that she is known for imagination fuelled speeches, and because of that someone did "taylor swift infosec" where some guy explains infosec with imagination in similar way to her i.e.:
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...33/426/67f.png
lol not sure if serious XD
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Yeah most EIE does display high extroversion but they do display introversion as well. And that extroversion is so obvious it's hard to mistake it for IEI-Fe.
Well I meant that chaos is what we don't understand :p And ok lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Kara
I see, makes sense for IEI>EIE overall, I think.Quote:
Oh, yes. Intense emotions are powerful variables, but variables. How is it? "These violent delights have violent ends".
Awkward ways, when you see someone stumbling across something, because it's not their forte, and you just feel awkward too because of it. Also, I felt with all the LSIs I've known, that they were not in "places" where I have been or liked to wander around. Dark, deep, scary things. Not because they weren't interested, but they didn't go their on their own, and this really bothered me. The SLE I know is different, and it makes me feel we are so much closer because of this.
I also felt a difference in their approach to my weirdness. The LSIs were maybe a bit baffled, but never judged me, they were looking at me interested, while the SLE I know seemed like it's natural, like I haven't said anything crazy, and it made me feel nice and normal.
Oh, for EIE I meant they just straight away make some judgments. They don't seem to try and go further into Intuition much more by default or express it that much.Quote:
As about the difference between IEI and EIE you mentioned before, I'm not sure though which one I do, I think I do both. I stay with the "okay, here is what is happening to you, I'll be brief, and I think, this is what you should do part", if I'm exhausted emotionally, if I'm not, I try to go further into patterns.
:) You seem really ambiverted I guess.Quote:
Yes, I can see how LSIs bloom like flowers, when I start to engage with them more emotionally, be chatty, etc. They opened up, became energized, etc. The weird thing is that it makes me a lot more extraverted too, and I end up being exhausted, but can't really stop. Getting too introverted can do this to me too, purposefully staying silent in some situations.
Bolded doesn't really seem Ti DS, though I wouldn't say EIE has to be all that crazy unstable :lol: (Maybe they seem that way to some people though. :hide:) They just don't rely on their Ti much independently.Quote:
My ESE friend used to tell me how nice it is, that it makes her feel like I take her hand when something is dark or scary, and walk with her, because on her own, she hates feeling disturbed or any dissonant emotions, while I enjoy them/more interested in the knowledge. I feel I don't necessarily need the type of reinforcement she does, but sometimes it feels nice, and I realize it only then. However, I would never give up analytical approach for it from someone. I feel I can get emotional stability and support from my own thoughts and my faith (connection with the divine), if it makes sense, and I know even the worst storms will end.
One other thing I realized though, what really comforts me, and is a weirdly important need is human touch, hugs, etc. This baffles me a bit, but if it comes from loved ones, it can soothe me like an animal
Right.Quote:
I understand, what you say, sounds similar to what I've seen with LSIs before. A well built structure which is stable, but because it needs to be stable (unlike SLEs), they need to keep it more "fenced" from incoherent or illogical things (the Ni thing we talked about). I just appreciate it sometimes when they explain things I haven't seen, because I was so in my emotions and own head, but I'll come back to this later.
Np!Quote:
Yes, I got it, thank you!
Yeah, that's Irrationality + Intuition.Quote:
I spend a lot of time with one, and it's very regular that we randomly start to talk about conspiracies, and a lot of "what ifs". It can be adorable, I see how this is a territory for them in a way that they use more creativity, and maybe feel stupid after they had a weird idea, but I always see logic behind it, and enjoy that they are so open-minded. Sometimes we read old texts together, and talk about what could be the meaning behind it, they have different and sometimes more literal interpretation problems with it than I do, like:
-"how the hell can this person be a whale, when they said he was a goldfish"
-"I think it was just a metaphor for turning into something else"
-"hmm, I wonder what if these metaphors would also be applied to (...)"
This "I wonder" is what makes a lot of difference to me between LSIs and SLEs. We play with ideas a lot.
That seems to fall in line with what some IEIs told me before. In terms of they don't want too much commitment/obligation. Maybe EIEs can feel this way too but I didn't hear this from them explicitly and they do seem to adjust better even if they are no LSIs themselves lol.Quote:
Everything seems like an obligation, when it's fixed, and I don't want to do it. It really just depends my mood. It always seems like as soon as something is a must, even if I'd like it, I start to feel this aversion to run away from it. This doesn't come with my relationships thank God, but everything else. I want to do everything in my time, when and how I want it, slowly or randomly, stopping it or starting it again. I often btch about the fact that we can't take vacation days from life.
Oh I'm thinking it's just that you see more with your Intuition than what's directly visible and you can see their potential (this bloom thing :content: ) so you see they should be in need of it. Even if, as an LSI, I personally don't feel that in reality. But it makes sense when reflecting about it, in terms of how Fe is definitely a good thing to have so technically it's a need. What I'm trying to say though is that I easily get oblivious of Fe stuff and hence I get oblivious of needing it, too. So it's not like some maintained craving. :) I just lose attention on all of it after a while, unless I force myself to remember and go and try and maintain some Fe access. (Which I only have bad ways of going about in some situations, like being too straightforward in making requests or being too "mechanical" about it perhaps?) Did this make sense?Quote:
Well, I feel this because than there is no register as you said. Or they won't feel at ease, or bloom, like I see a neeed.,I'm not obliged of course to do anything with it, I can just feel the crave maybe.
The mirroring is really automatic for me, it's not about insecurities like "not sure what to do, let's copy the other person". :lol: It's just my automatic response when I get involved (to various degrees, can be really superficial too) in the emotional situation.Quote:
Yes, and it made me feel like "um, I'm not sure, what I should do now, I will do what she does", instead of just doing stuff from their own head spontaneously, which attracts me.
I've heard IEI say that about appreciating this about SLEs. One IEI specifically said she needs the waves provided by the SLE to ride them to adjust to them with her own Fe (she's very good at adapting to people this way btw, like exceptionally good, not all IEIs are that good as she).Quote:
Yes, this makes sense. I can get a bit closed up, especially in group situations, and my SLE friend just starts to talk to me, or asks me something, makes a joke, engages me, randomly say my name, smiles at me, and he will keep me "there" and "involved", almost like he invites me back always. This seems weirdly similar to what I would think EIEs do for LSIs in group situations. I do this sometimes as well to others, if they are outcasts, and I seem them struggle, I try to be nice, and ask them stuff.
Also, this SLE has such a rude sense of humor and talks so much and loudly, that I just can't not react, so I usually burst out laughing.
As for EIEs, they are not so random about it like you describe it. It's also less directed at me personally... it's more like they live in/play out their own theatre and then when they deem the emotional situation makes it appropriate, they make direct moves/move attention to involve me too a bit more directly. This is also pretty frequent of course but it's like it's part of the whole "theatre play". :lol: So not really that random but cool anyway. Overall I'm involved in any case because of watching the "play".
Exactly this is how that IEI compared too SLEs vs LSIs, lol. You do sound like you prefer Irrationality and more momentum.Quote:
Like in micromanaging things they lead me somtimes "let's go this way", but not in a "hey, I thought about booking tickets to this, do you want to go there?" But this can be just a fale perception, as I don't want to see a pattern coming from a few people's behaviors whom I also didn't know well enough. But with me Se dom friends we can be sometimes fcking clueless as to what to do, and sit there for hours talking about "hm, what should we do - I don't know", then a random topic pops up, until there is no time to actually decide what to watch/eat etc.
OK, I see, though I would still say EIEs are truly mad crazy with it. :lol: Maybe just my pov but it's all very passionate emotional judgments. IEI can also get passionate with this stuff but they are kind of seeming less... directed/purposeful emotionally? (I will mention more on Se DS vs Se HA below.)Quote:
This is when it's not bullying, and I know it was meant no harm. If I see someone defenseless and straight up being bullied, I can make a scene, and call out that person on their bullshit.
OK as for the list on EIE vs IEI:Quote:
It's because of the fact that as a child I was very different, maybe as a teenager as well.
1) can be extraverted but can also be based on Ni base's envisioned convictions. 2) IEI did tell me that before. 3) Yeah sounds stereotypical dual-seeking. :) Esp the part about how you were not aware of some Se stuff before you were given them. I think one can be this oblivious of their DS function. 4) Seems weak Sensing overall, it's not specific to Si PoLR. 5) Same. Or sp-last. Or being young (if that applies). 6) This seems like leading Intuition, with making an imaginative impression, but there is some NF-ish stuff with Feeling in it too, sure. 7) Refer to 1). + ambiversion. 8) Refer to 1), 7).
Ah yeah, she apparently is soc-last in Enneagram and that could be the problem.Quote:
It reminded me a bit of something you wrote in here:
Cool, a result of socializing and maybe dualizing? :pQuote:
Also, this is one thing that my IEI friend told me before. One of his best friend's is very extraverted, and my IEI friend told me basically this guy taught him how to speak up, be more opened, louder, talk more etc. It came to a point that when I first met him, I thought he was extraverted.
Seems like you don't care all that much for social instinct. Though sure, soc-firsts can be very neurotic too about fitting in groups (first instinct being the most neurotic), but you find them too shallow so I don't think it's the soc-first neurotic stuff for you.Quote:
I've never had a hard time expressing my opinion or values. It's just always felt like that in a group situation I feel very uncomfortable, I have a hard time connecting. So I prefer talking to one or two people, and started to prefer staying in the role of percieving people. I just usually feel like I don't belong in groups. Even with friends, group situations are more shallow, loud etc.
Not sure how much of it is specific to type, but an IEI-Fe guy told me the same about his childhood once: about imagining stuff and not realizing what was actually real (I don't mean schizophrenic level of delusions ofc, just a strong imagination). He also had some issues in his family.Quote:
9. As a child I had many family issues. These things neve came up to me to a logical level back then, but I actually had delusions and fantasies in my head, archetypical stories and pictures. The only way I could express it outwards was being rebelling or feeling sad, but all of these seemed... almost normal to me as a kid, until I realized later I had some serious sht going on. I lacked the understanding of the situation of my surroundings, I just felt blue, and had weird pictures everywhere in my head. This is where Ti helped me - I had to analyze what I was imagining to realize what was wrong, and talk to Ti doms who explained what they saw around me back then.
All this seems pretty Intuitive, 11) is how Ni lead is described by Golihov, the latter part specifically (Ni creative transforms too a lot), with being complementary, adjusting to the other person. That would also be a result of responsiveness of introversion, perhaps.Quote:
10. As a kid I could also enjoy spending time alone, just reading. And I was never popular, I didn't know how to connect to others.
11. I can transform many times, at least it feels like it. I always feel like I'm becoming "complementary" to who I am with for a long time.
12. I was always questioning reality as a child, what does exist, if this is reality, what ifs etc.
As for the rest- 13) seems Irrational. 14) is not really type related much, as in, you seem balanced here between the two approaches. 15) is a very IEI thing stereotypically. :)
You really do seem oriented by the quite unique/"weird" imagination, based on what you've said so far. The traits that could be EIEish are not 100% specific to EIE. You could say this about some of the IEIish traits too, sure, what's decisive for type isn't those traits. So if I had to decide, IEI>EIE for you.Quote:
So I'm really not sure at this point. How much can we trust childhood and young people's personality, as their brain is not fully developed? Since I've found my best friends (SEE, IEI and SLE) I feel a lot more calm, neutral, natural, worry less. Maybe they just taught me something, or I find my place, I have no idea. But I don't know how much can we change. The fact that our personalities wouldn't change sounds weird to me in a way that our brain is now developed yet at the beginning, and if I remember correctly, Jung said that trauma can change your core.
These above are the main reasons why I'm not sure if I'm Ni or Fe lead.
Yeah, need to know the why too. :)Quote:
I actually think this is a smart approach, because many other factors can have an effect on someone. Not the "what", but the "how" and "why".
Ah, well, the main stuff I can think ofQuote:
What were the things that you saw as EIE traits in people then decided it can be just IEI things?
(not all of these traits would have to go together for each person ofc)
- Focused a lot on outside emotional evaluations (Fe), and ethical concerns, orienting by them where more introverted-detached IEIs wouldn't care that much, just getting a very "feely"/Feeling vibe off them overall and of what they would say/think
- Willing to express thoughts with high Intuition instead of keeping it to themselves (was assuming this was Ne demonstrative, based on noticing it in some people who self-typed as EIE)
- Being pretty good at initiating with people in terms of relationships, or socially, or emotionally, building a connection
- Connected with a lot of people, going around a lot, not sitting on their ass much lol
- Decently energetic, even restless possibly
- Trying to pay attention to everyone
- Decent level of assertiveness, clear (and not too bad, even if slightly chaotic-seeming to me lol) attempts at maintaining assertiveness
But yeah, all the extraverted seeming bits can be a well-socialized well-adjusted IEI-Fe and falsehope does mention a good description of IEI-Fe. DCNH subtype can also influence it. Some of this actually is quite typical of IEI-Fe as well, the third one and the one before the last one are often mentioned for IEI-Fe. First one is quite emphasized Fe/Feeling in general, sure, BUT: these people are not very directly emotionally expressive as much as actual EIE, more just in bursts. Sure, actual EIEs also are not going to be like that in all situations with strangers but sooner or later it becomes obvious that there's a lot of emotionality going on with them. Last one seems Se DS to me rather than Se HA also, because of not entirely meeting two-dimensional function's social norms with it, and is more Irrational "chaotic" in presentation. With EIEs their Se HA as far as I've seen it so far seems to be more "channelled" by Rationality and Fe, if this makes sense. A more purposeful and very emotionally adjusted (read: theatrical, rather than spontaneous) expression of anger too, for example.
A couple more things I remembered about my observations for IEI vs EIE:
IEIs (the Fe subtype only) offer a certain adaptable and very nice brand of Fe-attentiveness. EIEs have some attentiveness too but they are extraverts at heart (with their emotional theatre) so they are not going to focus on adjusting to the other party too much, while IEIs do that way more.
EIEs subordinate everything else to the emotions and emotional evaluations. The Intuitive ideas follow suit too. An example of that would be, IEIs will present their Intuitive ideas directly and as we discussed earlier, I can find it hard to engage directly right away... While EIEs do this way less often, this direct presenting of ideas, and when they do, it's either short-lasting compared to IEIs, or the emotion comes first and the idea (Ni or Ne or whatever) comes after it, so for example: the mood is set first to be fun enough and then an accordingly fun idea is presented. And so on.
No worries, not tiresome :), just did not have time to put it all together before. Let me know if it helped any :)Quote:
@Myst, I realized by @Bertrand's post that this detailed conversation we are having might be really tiresome. If you feel like it, ignore my constant doubting. I'm still very interested though in your opinion on my points and childhood, but I would be happy even with a response to the last question (about what characteristics that you thought as EIE before you think of now as IEI), as I think I could learn from these a lot.
I agree the more social IEI-Fe's are like how you describe them. But I think EIE-Ni aren't that strongly extraverted either, just ambiverted extraverts. Though yeah they don't seem to express it the same way you describe IEI-Fe.Quote:
Originally Posted by falsehope
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@Kara, generally you can determine introversion/extroversion by initiative. If you usually prefer other people to reach out to you, to take the initiative, you're probably introverted. If you prefer being the person who reaches out to others, and find it awkward to be on the other side of this, you're probably extroverted. In groups of introverts, one will usually take the extroverted role, or they'll take turns. In groups of extroverts, they will either clash, or some will take introvert roles for a time.
Longer explanation:
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@Kara - not forgotten, soon posting a reply :)
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Yes, that makes sense, that's a Ni thing to focus on how it will end. Ni lead makes the decisions primarily based on that though other Ni egos will see this kind of information too ofcourse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kara
Yeah though I find it hard to imagine how one would ever manage to fully directly access for long enough to really develop their dual seeking function (or inferior function in Jung's theory). It can be integrated somewhat via Ego functions though. I can imagine the case of someone having done that and then talking about it like that, yes. It is great if that's done, I think.Quote:
I guess that’s where the other factors come in – what did you have to develop in yourself to get through stuff.
My (less confirmed so far) understanding overall though is that with the mobilizing function you more readily say things like this about the ability to rely on it somewhat, while you can say this in theory about dual seeking too but in practice it is less done. I.e. you believe that in theory you are able to rely on getting the needed info from your dual seeking function on your own, but in practice it is a way more tentative access. But yes you can do it sometimes.
Out of curiosity, are they male or female?Quote:
I could imagine that. I only know two EIEs, both of them are really ambitious and serious people, who try to keep a good prestige. They almost seem like outcasts, because they are really picky, whom they are talking to. I’m similar this way. When you start to talk to them (we usually like each other’s company), you can see how much confusion and uncertainty they actually have – despite their very behavior that says „wow, this guy knows his sht”. I can see what you and I wrote above in both types, yeah.
Lol it sounds like fun. :) It does sound like the psychological comfort duality is supposed to have (if all other circumstances are right too).Quote:
This comes very handy in group situations for me, yes. I just usually lack the mindset when I would have to do small talk, so I don’t ask back sometimes. With him, I didn’t have to small talk, we straight up started to talk about the weirdest and grossest things, haha. It feels like somehow he is always thinking of me, and knows I'm there the consciously pulls me back from my head or introverted zone.
I also can feel awkward in these group situations, because I feel weird and out of place, and he makes me feel normal.
Unfortunately I can't describe such expressions with words. Or what would you like an example for?Quote:
Sometimes I do have an agenda in my mind, what I want to achieve, or if I’m testing someone, but not everytime. Do you have an example from your life? It sounds really fascinating.
Oh, I actually like both ideas lol. But to think of something like the latter, I'd probably need to have some input from somewhere first to create the idea, e.g. the partner throwing up some similar idea first, and I would never present it as "hey, wanna..." unless I'm truly caught up in the moment emotionally. Which on my own rarely happens ofc, around Fe egos more of a chance for it. :)Quote:
I think what I meant with the booking tickets for something was not necessarily about more spontaneity, but thinking bigger. For example, not „hey, wanna check out this café shop?” but „hey, wanna travel to the countryside with a tent, bathe in a river, get food from a gas station, and just look at the stars, then we’ll see where we will end up?”
So overall, I think whether someone's willing to think bigger is not entirely type related but I'm sure that compared to LSIs SLEs think "crazier" on average and with needing less help with input for ideas, maybe (since they are not Ne PoLR). :p And so, if you find you work best with someone more like the SLE, that would again be an indicator of type. EIE on the other hand would not be "loose" enough to want to jump at such "crazier" ideas with thinking bigger so fast, I think, though I'm sure they can be convinced too or they can go for it easily if they are in the right mood and it seems like it wouldn't end bad.
Yeah, IEIs can get fired up too, my point is IEIs have a more free type of expression of anger in such situations than EIEs. EIEs put/channel all the anger into the ethical judgment and express it as a more refined emotion, that theatrical thing I mentioned. IEIs will usually show the anger in a more raw way in terms of expression, not in the form of the refined "theatrical" emotion. At least the ones I've seen so far had this in common and it makes sense according to the theory too.Quote:
I used to be like that, I think.
Oh ok, sorry, I can't say more without actually having seen it/without at least more details on it.Quote:
1) I think I was so bold and bossy, and out there, that that’s why I’m not sure if I could still be an IEI.
This was the thing about Ni dominant being bossy when "preaching" their Ni vision of how things should be: "In their mode of life, and in their immediate environment, they seek to regulate everything according to their own ideas, which is apt to make them tyrants within their own small circle. Rather than adapt themselves, they will limit their contact with those who do not fall in with them. (...) The firm conviction of these people may in such cases arouse strong opposition or find blind support. They often lay down the law in regard to what they have perceived, without its even occurring to them that it might be possible to find incorrect as well as correct elements therein. This often makes their influence over others the more effective, but it may prepare the way for great confusion. One is reminded of the influence which a man like Nietzsche has had on our generation."
From here (Ni dominant description): https://web.archive.org/web/20160305...H-van-der-Hoop
Also: "Often, especially in circle of family, he becomes a critic, since deviation in behavior away from his principles turns him aggressive. If in another situation he will somehow restrain himself, at home he may allow himself to explode with anger."
From here (Ni as leading function): http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Dmitry-Golihov
I see :)Quote:
6) Yes, and it was a long time ago, so I’m not sure what was in my head. I wanted to be what everyone avoided, I guess. I also felt there was truth and so much beauty hidden in things that were unavailable for others because of their way of thinking, and I loved seeing all this beauty.
(Sorry can't really say much about the type here)
I've seen IEI guys like that...Quote:
I think so, it could be, yes. He was a very awkward outsider before – now he is really good with people, charismatic, speaks out etc. The funny thing is he doesn’t even see how much – sometimes he talks to women, almost in a flirting manner, and they are all over him – then he thinks he was „just kind”, haha.
No longer sure 2 words later? lolQuote:
I could actually see that what causes me difficulties with group is not lack of Fe but that I’m a soc last, maybe. I’m an sx first for sure (at least that’s what I think).
Makes sense.Quote:
Yes, it’s super weird looking back. If I would see this in a kid I knew, I would seriously consider psychosis – it wasn’t, but I think I remember that @Aylen once wrote in a post how she often had images that only one of her therapists saw as something not abnormal or as an illness, and I get that.
I think kids do need reasonable rules and predictability about them.Quote:
One other thing I wanted to add is that my rebelling was also sometimes based on logic – not understanding some rules or the reason behind them, and getting angry because of that. Then trying to reason while yelling, questioning boldly and loudly (in our household you couldn’t really have a normal discussion though, because they immediately yelled), which usually ended up with punishment from their part. But I did it over and over again, because that’s what felt right and true, and I didn’t feel any respect towards someone, lacking explanations for their behavior.
Yeah, this, and your many parts you mentioned earlier, is it anything like the description then? I meant this part ""Fluid like a river": involuntarily adjusts himself to the interlocutor in conversation by taking form of consciousness that is best fitted for the situation. By this he isn't playing a role, his consciousness is simply multifaceted and he is directed by his inner "wholeness". That is, he simply presents a version of himself. Communicating with you, he always feels your moods as if he is living through them together with you, adjusts himself to this."Quote:
I think with the transforming this, that’s what one thing that makes it hard for me to type myself or see myself as „one” thing. I feel like a chameleon, even when I’m not doing anything totally incosistent.
(From here: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Dmitry-Golihov)
The Ni creative has it in a bit different way, that one explicitly talks about role playing.
You said you adjust with the other person though, that's more the Ni lead.
One more thing about having many parts... Just an article, to show a concept (of ego states) beyond Socionics too that could possibly fit it: http://www.egostateinternational.com...te-therapy.php
Yeah these are extraverted traits, but ambiverts can have them too, that's important to keep in mind.Quote:
Wow, this is super weird, I’d have seen these as EIE traits, but it’s good to see when someone actually doesn’t want to fall for the stereotypes.
And yeah this is not simply about stereotypes, the directly cognition-related intrapersonal and interpersonal dynamics is what matters. Just because someone is decently social, it doesn't mean they are not following their Ni first and foremost.
Yeah it's like that. :)Quote:
I think I can have my intentions hidden and speaking that way, or turn conversation in a way that matches what I want, but I also have these weird spontaneous bursts sometimes. I remember in one of your posts you were talking with @golden about an IEI ex of yours, and how he suddenly did something. This reminds me, when I randomly dance around walking with someone on a street, then stop it just as fast, or do something very out of place physically, then just randomly stop.
I think I understand what you mean.Quote:
I see what you mean. I think I’m usually aware of the feeling in a group, and know what is inappropriate. I just like ignoring it sometimes – to have fun, be true to myself, or just because it can be entertaining to make people let their guards down, and to break thatarmor we are wearing. Seeing shocked faces in shallow discussion can be rewarding and fun – also how there will be people, who will actually join you, and laugh at these things. I also respect ideas and the unstructured way of life that it makes me not wanting to keep these social boundaries.
I also like talking to strangers in this friendly manner, like calling them „dude” or making fun a little bit of myself about my lack of insight when it’s about money, or burocracy - so it makes everything less official. I feel uncomfortable in official environments, and feel it a little bit fake. I know who we are inside, and I can see in my imagination everyone at the end of the day, and in a way these seem like roles with costumes that people play - but why would anyone want to make their lives harder with it, instead of being upfront, and seeing each other as we are?
With regards to type it just sounds like following an Intuitive vision. And maybe Fe in terms of modulating people's emotionality for the Ni vision's purpose, rather than simply leading people with your Fe. That would be more characteristic for Fe creative but I'm only going by these few words here.
Out of curiosity too, when you are looking for putting these ideas into reality, what would you need? Type-wise, do you imagine SLE or LSI helping more with the implementation and why?
You seem coherent just fine to me. :) I think this could be either Ti superid, regarding type, have heard this from both EIE and IEI before that they are not sure about Ti matters.Quote:
But I'm rewriting this bit for the third time, as I'm not sure how I act or what I feel, because of the angles that are attacking me constantly, as I'm trying to pick one and be sure, etc. And when I pick one, write about it, even though it's true, it starts to feel like a nice tale, but just one from a lot of. So don't take this part above very seriously. Gosh, this happens so many times, I see so many things in someone, but when someone asks a basic question about my cognitive ways or internal mechanisms, I feel I can't see anything properly. At this point I'm not even sure if I'm right about this, so I'll just stop editing, haha. Can this be EIE's Ti? Or this is more like how Socionics irrationality would look like?
Glad if it really helped that much. :)Quote:
You’re fine, I will not be offended even if you’ll never react to this thread again. You gave me so much insight, and your time is your time. I guess this is not the most interesting thing to anyone to spend their time with.
I'd first ask the question if it could fit an ambiverted IEI (so not strongly introverted, able to socialize, etc) and not purely an extraverted type. IMO, but I only have a few details ofc, yes it can.Quote:
Why I asked you so much about if people can change is because it’s hard to see myself introverted as a child, almost like it developed over the years. I was always a bossy (I was kind of intimidating sometimes), scattered, moralizing, trying to teach people and having these big talks kind of kid. And even though I could be like that, I was shy, and got scared easily by strangers or people.
I’ve changed a lot since. IEI would make a lot of sense from our conversations, I’m just wondering if a lot of childhood and teenage behavior can be relied upon when it’s about typing. I guess there are things I have to figure out for myself though, what had an impact on me, etc.
Overall you could also try and look at the childhood stuff as IEI vs as EIE, in both ways, and see which explains it better, while also aligning it all with the general psychological explanations (outside Socionics) for them where applicable. Like you've put it very well, it's about looking at the whole structure, and as many parts as possible, I really liked that way of putting it. :)
I believe if enough (many, imo) patterns of behaviour and expression of ways of thinking/cognition have been observed, putting all that together is about as good for typing as directly looking at mechanisms of cognition (the clockwork :p) from introspection and analysis of interactions. But just a few observations won't be enough.
Then if everything fits more neatly either with IEI or with EIE, using either method for typing, that'd give the answer, I think. But yeah, it can take a long time to get it all together like that to such a final conclusion.
You can also add DCNH on top of all of it but the core type is to be figured out first, though considering DCNH motivations/traits can also help with putting traits loosely related to type into context.
Another thing this makes me think of is, maybe this isn't even really about IEI vs EIE but more like you were always an introverted type but more balanced previously, and maybe you are seeking to regain that balance socially. Just a shot in the dark, but seems like there is a reason why you are analyzing these childhood things in terms of more extraverted behaviours etc. Maybe some trauma created inhibitions and regardless of type you'd want to process and solve that, ofc I don't know, just an example, I have no idea if you actually have such issues.
Going back to type, obviously introverts would be more likely to utilize such introverted strategies of withdrawing and behavioural inhibition to deal with issues in their environment but ambiverted extraverts can too.
Lol last two sentences sound like Se DS and Ti HA, at least if put in this way, sounds like less resistance to Se while finding Ti stimulating for your own Ti HA. If I didn't interpret this right, feel free to correct me. :)Quote:
But the strong Ni visions, my lack of interest in power, or an established career based on what the outside world would dictate, or to do any kind of jobs that would be for the sake of working is causing me a lot of headache. Sometimes I just feel annoyed or even angry, how we lost out priests and propehts, our seers and people of our collective (and subjective) inside world in a way. We have psychologists and Abrahamic religions, but it's not the same. I wish we could take life in our own time, each and every step, with some help of push sometimes to go out and forward too (Se?), but not how it is now. We have so little time to our inner truth, in our hurry and everyday tasks, that it makes me sad. We need to create, but how could anyone? Can this whole thing be Te PoLR and Ni lead? I only know I'm desperately craving Se IRL, and drink it like a thirsty plant. But I also find it very interesting when someone seems cold and hard/stric.
And yes it can be Ni lead.
Again the question comes up... how would you like these visions implemented, i.e. make it real for people, what would help the most?
I think the topic is actually interesting, I can see how informing others on how this inside world is good and helpful to focus on would have an actual use. And that actually sounds really good to me.
Do you find the thing about the Ni vision helps explain stuff for you then? I.e. helpful?Quote:
I can see myself as an IEI, it's just my often times headstrong, passionate and loud former self is what is keeping me back from taking it immediately, and I don't want to believe I'm any type because of my fascination with it, or to think now I'm duals with someone, or any hidden reason.But this is the first time I considered my bossiness as something being lead by a vision, because as I remember, I somehow didn't realize it as a kid maybe the effect of the pushiness- it just seemed so obvious, I believe something, I "know" about it, and "understand". But I feel I could easily entertained other thoughts, and sometimes needed to point out questions that I didn't even had, but had to for the sake of an argument, or because I knew I was lacking the "whole picture", almost like a gut feeling. And when I didn't get it, I had a bad aftertaste (something is missing/I'm making emotional decisions, but there is another side to this I know I'm not considering due to being scared for example/there is a plothole in an argument/I'm saying something that feels like a line next in a script, but I feel my very core is saying something else).etc.
Yes, to believe it and "know" it as an obvious thing sounds like Ni in the context here.
Type-wise, I think the second part here talks about Irrational openness and willingness to engage Ti more directly than Ti DS but this is a tentative interpretation of just these few lines ofc. I just see IEIs consider Ti issues more directly than EIE.
And good to be try and objective as much as possible yeah :)
The Golihov ones?Quote:
Also looked at the (by the way very cool) description of functions, but I found EIE and IEI function orders were both accurate and inaccurate in some ways.
Yeah I think that's normal to find parts fitting from both if you are not a very obvious case of either IEI or EIE. (I'm the same way with LSI vs SLE regarding this.) Hopefully over time it will be clearer which pattern is fitting you in a way that it makes significantly more sense eventually with more explanatory power.
Childhood behaviour on its own isn't enough for typing but it can be complementary information. There are some side theories on personality development I think but I don't have links to such theories atm.Quote:
But yeah, this is why I'm asking how personality development is considered in Socionics and how much childhood behavior matters.
I don't have a thread on it per se but I have a type thread where I discussed with @lynn (IEI-Fe) about LSI vs SLE and which one fits me more, he/she had pretty good observations of the two types. It did help me see some things clearer on them though I already decided on LSI. Beyond explanations on SeTi vs TiSe ego that we discussed and my descriptions of how this works for me, it discusses Ni vs Fe seeking too.Quote:
Also, if you had a thread about figuring out your Se vs Ti lead, can you send it to me? It sounds really interesting.
Here: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...onnaire-(Myst)
In a nutshell though... I decided on my typing from this *core* summary of cognitions: SLE will see logic as one way to make sense of experiences where they readily make sensory associations of experiences by default otherwise, while LSI wants only one (the best) logical explanation that's then to be applied to actions in the tangible world (in the form of rules for actions with the reasoning for these rules).
SLE is thus more open to more than one explanation while LSI really just wants the one explanation that's best and isn't open to alternatives readily. I'd add to this, in practice I'm not necessarily closed to hearing stuff from others, it just means I'd want see if integration of those other thoughts into the "one explanation" is possible, i.e. I can and will consider other thoughts, but it's not seen as alternatives, so I'm not going to play around with explanations, it's taken more seriously than that. Otoh, I can update the whole explanatory system to a new level with a paradigm shift sometimes. That's just not often.
Another main summary for me is about my Se approach (the above one is about my Ti approach primarily) vs SLE's,
SLE's answer to this Se question "What is the core of any force?": "Momentum."
While mine as LSI: "Active and very focused energy put towards the object/into the goal/target."
That means, I do prefer to channel the Se force by having some purpose to my actions and I easily follow a course with a strong focus rather than just being spontaneous with big momentum and with less focus, even if I am able to adapt in the moment to some Se challenges coming up too, it doesn't look the same as SLE's approach.
I could also contrast Fe HA/DS etc...
Yeah, I believe it's important to find that core and then a lot of things will follow from that neatly is what I find. What you call "it comes to life". :)Quote:
It seems to me the hardest thing is to decide which need of ours is connected to which cause, illnesses, traumas - seeking the deepest causes, whether it's a core or something formed by an experience. If I'd been repressed seriously, would I be more attracted to Se? If I would have a hard time understanding my values and standpoints, because I was raised in a very seriously religious household, would I be more attracted to Fi? But oh well, i guess this is why you need to look at the whole picture - almost like a living mechanism, a clockwork alive, putting together those screws and metal parts, and see if it comes to life.
Sorry, I can't type that. :)Quote:
OFF: Also, what do you think about the „what is happening outside to all of us is mine, what is happening inside me is all of yours” kind of archetypical thinking? Is it an extraverted or introverted viewpoint? Since it has both in it.
I think your sharing beautiful, inspiring and deep things is exactly about giving/helping find a meaning and inspiration for people and yes I find that quite IEI. It's pretty subjective meanings, I think. Not some objective meaning of life. Does that make sense?Quote:
Edit: Sorry, last question, and might end up opening a thread about this one in particular, but I see everywhere how IEIs give inspiration and help find meaning. I don't think I'm necessarily out there, giving people purpose and goals, or tell them what is the meaning of life, and make a lecture, but what I do is I feel I must share beautiful, inspiring and deep things. Movies, music, books, ideas, and talk and ask about them, sharing what I think shows meaning and greatness and beauty - even if there are no necessarily words for it. Of course when I'm contemplating with someone, meaning can come up as a debate topic, but sometimes it's subtle, just hints of what I feel is important part of what is true, deep and beautiful, by art, stories I read about, news, my own thoughts... For example showing fractals and sacred geometry, movies with important messages, songs that move something inside you... So in the end I have no more idea than you do in a debate about the meaning of life, but I feel I can show things that are close to something holy, or meaningful. Is it how it would work with IEIs?
I have a question too from earlier :)
What kind of emotional involvement are you looking for? Do you see it with LSIs or other people?Quote:
With Se-doms the issue that can rise is that they doesn’t really get emotionally involved in my ideas, and maybe forget about them in the next minute
All in all... IIRC before you edited your post you said you would be ok with trying on IEI. Of course this is entirely up to you as to what you do, so if your question was whether the childhood stuff would exclude it, my answer is no, it can be IEI fine, from the few details at least that you've said so far. You could also still consider EIE-H if you want, see if that makes things fall in line more on the whole, though from the data so far I believe it overall seems more IEI stuff cognitively. The patterns too seem to consistently point towards that.
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Ok, cool. :) And sure, no problem with PM.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kara