Did you become a doctor or a nurse to save lives or did you become stockbroker to get success? Or did you not give a shit? xd How much would you say you are guided by your values? What guides you in live?
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Did you become a doctor or a nurse to save lives or did you become stockbroker to get success? Or did you not give a shit? xd How much would you say you are guided by your values? What guides you in live?
I think I develop my own values at the point of 16-17 yr. Before that it was pretty much a mash of what the environment seem to value. I think I been both following them and develop them as Im going but it really help me getting past some choices. I think I am medium, too much and you become extremist and too less and you become zombie.
I don't think just one thing drives me in life.
Not sure how to answer.
Well, some are guided mostly by their values and some are guided by else. People who talk about "life puzzle" and just get everything together are probably less guided by their values and someone who make huge personal sacrifice like spending years dedicated to a singular purpose is probably more guided by their values.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avebury
Oh ok.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigerfadder
In that sense I am not really driven by a single purpose, no. My life is all over the place. :lol:
So I guess that answers no to your OP question, though I do have values, like personal ethics if you will, I am not driven by some big cause lol.
I guess, that sounds very Fi suggestive of you! xdQuote:
Originally Posted by Avebury
Maslow is a good starting point for most people: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow...archy_of_needs
a.k.a. I/O
I have no values really, I do what I feel like doing. Though being an asshole is not in my best interests~
When we had that in school we concluded that perhaps the 3th and 4th should be switched. As in friends before relationships. But if this is the question, which stage do you crave at the moment?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebelondeck
If I ever did live by values I'd be doing something like doing guerilla warfare against a tryannical goverment, hunting poachers of endangered animals or striking against explotative/corrupt companies. In my current situation however I do very little out of values.
all are. in minor things, at least. not obligately global or as formal occupation
when many people do minor things - it is significant in the sum
i feel like whatever guides you are your values, so its one of those things you can't not be guided by, you can only be abstracted from yourself in such a way that you don't believe this is the case
people like to think of themselves as having values x but act out values y, so they invent some scheme whereby this makes some kind of sense, but its just a little scam they're selling themselves
values don't have to necessarily be some emotional commitment, they can just as easily be some rule based abstract construction or ideology. or they can just outsource their values entirely and be a tool of society, but to be willing to become such a thing in the first place is a primary value. a kind of slave morality, since it requires a master in order to direct one's life. although slavery is an ugly word, note some people are perfectly fulfilled with this arrangement, so it should not be taken as pejorative, only it is what it is. the slaves built the pyramids and no less they toil away to this day developing conceptual monuments because they save brain power on choice
Yes, very much so, I am guided by values.
my value is to do what i want whenever i want. I wanna try everything and live life intensely before i die. for this i need money and i will attain it
Values are necessary to survive. Each one of us have ethics or values. If you don't say you don't have, you are stupid nonthinking prick.
Because if you don't have any values, you'll start killing people or just commit crimes and stuffs.
We have values because we think. We can think, we have the capability to know what is wrong and what is right = that is common sense.
Is it right to kill an innocent human? No. = values says so.
If you don't have values then you are like the animals who just survive via instincts..
You're a human capable of having values. Don't be stupid.
Values arent necessary to survive. Food and shelter is. spoken like a true F type xdQuote:
Originally Posted by idontgiveaf
I don't know. I suppose anything anyone does could be correlated with a value. How else would you know what's worth doing and what isn't?
I looked upon belonging as an offshoot of safety whereas esteem's an offshoot of belonging - like a tree. Self-actualization could only be sustained with everything else in place unless one was a sociopath. Unfortunately, the catalyst for many relationships is physiological which trumps everything above it (pun intended) but explains some puzzling ITR cravings.:content:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigerfadder
a.k.a. I/O
Values are needed. We all have those. Like respect, etc.. Politeness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Number 9 large
Like rn, you're not being an asshole by your comment that's already values.
That's my point. Values makes you a human.. That differs us from animals.Quote:
Originally Posted by strangeling
It starts with formative understanding of everything. Collecting information and deciding route based on that. I never followed the public.
I have realized that I'm walking joke of process type.
I guess that makes you a counter flow type. But what are your values? Being polite is not necessary a core value... Its necessary for us to live in a society. Maybe a big scale value but not necessary a personal value. Could be if you go the extra mile for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007
what does flow/counter flow mean to you guys
lol this is such a Ti thread
I'm guided by my ideals when I can afford to do so and want to. I usually make decisions based on those and expediency in implementing those decisions and in deciding things I don't care about. I think that's probably kind of obvious though, so I think the question might be too vague.
If the question is source of drive, no, values are not what drive me. Feeling good is what drives me. Values can be an easy way to feel good about myself. Really, fuck if I know. None of these things I'm saying feel true.
It just that you can't be on top of things until you know what is beneath. You are born to this world and it is a mystery to be figured out. Established values are not real values to me. You can't just shop around with them aimlessly. They have to grow on you as your experience grows.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigerfadder
I guess, I still believe there are other forces that drives people than their values. Someone driven hard by their values might go blind to some other aspects of reality. Also there are religious people who do science, even when science valued people often ridicule religions, people can hold opposite values.Quote:
Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007
At one point i was guided more by my values/ ideals, which led me to some poor pragmatic decisions. Everytime the threshold between "need" and "want" was blurried ive learned to lean a bit more pragmatic nowdays. However those first big decisions i initially took based on values/ideals have tinted the rest of my choices. Im not sure how much this answers the op. @op were u thinking this is tied to socionics somehow?
The driving force behind everything I do is insecurity, probably. I'm a sucker like that, I suppose. Tell me I can't do something and I'll do it just to prove you wrong... within reason, of course. I enjoy the challenge. I don't really have any values besides not being an asshole because I've been witness to, seen, in myself and others the damage callous abuse does. It's the only thing I get real riled up about, tbh.
Otherwise, no... you never know what you'll do when the situation calls for it.
@Bertrand
I definitely didn't read what you said as mean spirited or critical, I just didn't think about my response that deeply. I appreciate your input.
Well, I have aesthetic values, which I guess counts. But regular values are overrated and turn everyone into whiny Pisces INFPs.
Probably most ppl often associate "values" with good ethics, but values doesnt necessarily refers to it.
I think everyone is guided by their values but their values are different, some values are "good" some are "wrong" ethically speaking, but ppl often believe that the values they follow are good (even if they are wrong according laws or society).
So to answer to op, I do live according my values because everyone does. Even those who say "I dont live according my values because I dont have any" are doing a wrong reasoning, because their value is doing what they please or obeying whatever they want (their impulses, instincts, fears etc). If we can answer at this op, we have an individual consciousness and we can't deny or get rid of it (unless using inhibitory/conscious affecting substances or procedures). Consciousness is fundamental part of being an homo sapiens, hence values, because for something being valued a decision need to be made.
Value simply means something that is important for the person or individual. There are more/less important values. But every conscious homo sapiens live (decides and choose) according them in general basis. Even criminals, but their values are ethically twisted or wrong according the ethics of the most (society) or laws.
What's interesting about values is that they more or less go against your mere biological impulses of "survival". For example, you might go on a hunger strike and starve yourself to death, even though evolutionary speaking, that's very very bad.
The objective of your genes, as in your DNA is to replicate itself, and it's like a parasite and your body is just a convenient host for the DNA to spread itself. Your genes are controlling you and your body, but we are now rebelling against this, by saying "no" to our genes and our biological impulses, because we have somehow managed to become conscious of ourselves and we've started to understand ourselves and what we are doing.
So you could say that to live according to your values, may be what you would call "free will". To not live according to your values, and just go by your mere impulses, would simply mean being controlled by your "selfish gene".
This is a very interesting concept of "the selfish gene" by Richard Dawkins.
...But genes are the body. Genes get activated, deactivated, and mutate as the body changes its environment. There would also be no body without genes. It's like a hologram. Hunger strikes are as natural as cannibalizing the guy who "accidentally died" on a desert island.Quote:
Originally Posted by Singu
But genes are not the body, that's why they're called genes and not a body. Genes created the body, yes, so that it can replicate itself. We are just that consequence. The problem (for the gene) is that we have become too smart and somehow become self-aware, so that we could understand exactly what our genes are doing to us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pallas Athena
In a way, yes, and i see what you are saying. Yet some people take decision based solely on pragmatic reasons (like i'll pick x career because it will bring me money, rather than i pick x career because i want to work for an non profit to help abused women because it is important to me personally, etc). Like those deciding on pragmatics you could argue that that's their value, yet so often i've heard from those people that "ideallly, i'd pick x, but there's no money in it so i picked y", or some such. At least this is how i interpreted the OP's questions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bertrand
Not really. If a cell mutates and you get a tumor, the genes of that cell have changed. You also don't have the same genes throughout your entire body. Do you know how genes work? Genes have to constantly re-create the body. Genes create amino acids, and if you weren't constantly creating new amino acids, you'd die very quickly because most parts of the body have to constantly regenerate themselves or outside processes kill them. Just look at old people for starters. Genes are the body in a holographic way. Everything in the body is reflected through genes and vice versa.Quote:
Originally Posted by Singu
Cowardice is common. If you have more money, can't you help fund a non profit to help abused women? But people are afraid so they just hold onto their money for themselves and stop there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Delilah
So what? The genes that get replicated are in the sperm and the egg. The genes in the other cells don't really matter. What our consciousness is doing in our brain, probably don't really matter much in terms of genes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pallas Athena
It matters in terms of the genes in the brain. The sperm and egg make stem cells, but after that a lot of other things happen. You don't have the same genes throughout your entire body. You didn't even have the same genes throughout your entire body while you were in the womb.Quote:
Originally Posted by Singu
I guess technically 'everybody has values' but it still sounds too self-righteous/pretentious and holier-than-thou and Oprah-ish to me. :content:
I value what is actually valuable. So I value money and real resources that can be exchanged.
But I also value the government not getting too out of hand/lessening it's power over people's lives, moderate political views, eroticism, and close/meaningful relationships. I value quieting the mind down so life can be lived/enjoyed more better. I value working on compromises between people so hatred can be lessened in the world. I value art and freedom and collapsing institutional abuse. I value independence and thinking for one's self and not following the herd just because it's easier. I value queer empowerment ideologies, as long as they don't get too SJW-y and CC the very people they're supposed to cast Esuna on. I value working on your own darkness- realizing your own dark impulses, and being aware of them, not acting on them; this is much more respectable to me in terms of "being good/ethical" than 'there's a bad guy- get 'em!' Nobody's "good", life is about choices- and making the right choices when you are tempted to do something otherwise. I value encouraging people when they are being good, not just chastising them when they are bad - though sometimes that is necessary too. I value questioning authority. I value not being a hypocrite. I value having a sense of humor.
Again, so? Actually genes don't change through activation/deactivation of certain genes, genes can only change through random mutation and sexual reproduction.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pallas Athena
Genes mutate throughout the entire body. You also get cells from other organisms through being in the womb, through viruses inserting and removing sections of your DNA, and other fun things. Those science quizzes that say all cells in the body have the same DNA are like those diagrams of atoms with electrons stuck on circles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Singu
I don't want to give label value under my actions. It is nonsense to me because you can turn it around while sticking with it. It happens all the time in politics. It is much more important to research keep critical mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigerfadder
I guess from here you can extract following values: criticism, keeping integrity of vision (instead crafted by public and just repeating it and applying it senselessly) etc.
And you can see how I turned the whole thing around. :P
So from here I have noticed of being very disagreeable about value systems and much less disagreeable about people. When you campaign for something against something you are entering into a "war" which is miserable state to be in. It would be much better to have gradual progress without divisive lines. I don't really want to be part of so called lobbyist groups. ugh...
Desire.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigerfadder
Essentially, all of what @dead bnd said is what I believe in. I'd actually recommend that more people meditate on their darkness. I've found that your real self can be discovered underneath the surface.Quote:
Originally Posted by dead bnd
This is true to some extend only. I was thinking about the people i was referring that it is not necessarily out of cowardice: some of them had responsibilities like loans to pay off after school for instance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pallas Athena
Yea, other driving force of people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aramas
My values drove me insane when I was being raised religious. Left my faith at 20. Then I was finally able to indulge my appetite for life. My instinctive core values have always been justice, fairness, and winning. I work at a car wash because I value having a roof over my head and food. When I start my career it will mostly be to fulfill myself, but it just happens to also serve others. I want to be in entertainment or a hairstylist.
Very much so, I've made a lot of sacrifices to pursue something higher out of life.
And yes, everyone has values that drive what they do, it's just a question of whether they are lower, materialistic values or higher moral-spiritual ones. Mental values fall somewhere in the middle.
I think Maslow's hierarchy of needs is useful here. If you don't have the material needs fullfilled, it becomes hard to deal with higher values. Psychological values come after the physical and safety related needs but also need to be addressed before dealing with the spritual, which Maslow calls self-actualisation.Quote:
Originally Posted by thehotelambush
https://www.simplypsychology.org/maslow-5.jpg
The needs don't have to be fullfilled in a strict order but it serves as a kind of map.
Values are quite complex and vary from person to person. We have our strong biological impulses, which also vary between individuals. We can override these impulses by self-restraint. This is essential for a society to function. Our tendency toward forming societies is the results of our biology, which begins with the mother child relationship, and continues with the family and community throughout the long number of years needed for a human child to grow into as much of an independent adult as their culture expects. Groups and societies form a strong safeguard against predators and other humans. This was driven my our biology. This strategy was evolutionarily effective. The larger the group, the better your odds, if looking at the strength in numbers aspect. To sustain this, value systems were created. They became imperative. They are based on reason and emotion.
The regions of the brain that evolved, which made us identifiably human, drove us to form much longer lasting bonds with other individuals, which led to relatively stable groups and societies over time. Our brain developed the capacity for forming value systems that sustain these. Social instincts, which came from other primates and mammals, evolved alongside our intellectual capacities, which included the ability to have self restraint, and for the creation of value systems. These evolved together.
It seems like the "Triadic Reciprocal Deterministic" model (Social Cognitive Theory) is the better model than the "unidirectional personal determinism", which is the one espoused by theories like Socionics, psychoanalysis, humanistic and individualist psychology, etc, which says that the personal psychological factors are the only relevant factor in deciding human behavior. The model that is favored by the majority of psychologists these days would say that obviously a human behavior is the result of a complex mixture and interplay of personal, behavioral and environmental factors and influences.
https://www.researchgate.net/profile...chunk-1989.png
Triadic Reciprocal Determinism
https://wikispaces.psu.edu/download/...ts=drop-shadow
https://wikispaces.psu.edu/display/P...ficacyTheoriesQuote:
Social Cognitive Theory was presented by Bandura in response to his dissatisfaction with the principles of behaviorism and psychoanalysis. In these two theories, the role of cognition in motivation and the role of the situation are largely ignored (Bandura, 1977; as cited in Redmond, 2010). "Unidirectional environmental determinism is carried to its extreme in the more radical forms of behaviorism" but humanists and existentialists, who stress the human capacity for conscious judgment and intentional action, contend that individuals determine what they become by their own free choices.
Most psychologists find conceptions of human behavior in terms of unidirectional personal determinism as unsatisfying as those espousing unidirectional environmental determinism. To contend that mind creates reality fails to acknowledge that environmental influences partly determine what people attend to, perceive, and think" (Bandura, 1978, pp.344-345).
Social Cognitive Theory
Albert Bandura's Social Cognitive Theory emphasizes how cognitive, behavioral, personal, and environmental factors interact to determine motivation and behavior (Crothers, Hughes, & Morine, 2008). According to Bandura, human functioning is the result of the interaction among all three of these factors (Crothers et al., 2008), as embodied in his Triadic Reciprocal Determinism model (Wood & Bandura, 1989). While it may seem that one factor is the majority, or lead reason, there are numerous factors that play a role in human behavior. Furthermore, the influencing factors are not of equal strength, nor do they all occur concurrently (Wood & Bandura, 1989). For example, employee performances (behavioral factors) are influenced by how the workers themselves are affected (cognitive factors) by organizational strategies (environmental factors).
Somewhat guided. There are exceptions. My inner code is complex to say the least, it exists though. Or I would behave like a savage all the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigerfadder
Except that Maslow's hierarchy has no moral aspect. And, if someone is truly motivated by spiritual values they can give up some of these supposed needs like prestige or friends. The key word here being motivation -- if your motivation is physical needs then you will not progress beyond that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avebury
I don't agree. Tell the last sentence to someone who is starving, or in need. The whole point is that you can't progress to a higher spritual awareness if you are driven by food and shelter. Nor should you be - get your shit together first.Quote:
Originally Posted by thehotelambush
I know it has no moral aspect, but people who's basic needs are not met cannot focus on a moral aspect. The whole point is that societies where basic needs are not met, even those needs which you call "supposed" needs which are basically psychological in nature, are much more likely to be immoral, look at any war torn country.
If your needs like food and shelter are met, you will get bored with those things, most likely focus on the psychological needs next. And once those are met, you can focus on the spiritual, what Maslow calls self-actualization. Also, some people are overly driven by money because they think (wrongly) that it will meet their psychological needs too.
You're confusing motivation with result. Your motivation can be whatever it is, despite your present circumstance. You can be motivated to find food so that it can support your spiritual aspirations rather than as a goal in itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avebury