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Hi All
I've been discussing this with my IEI dual. He's told me some people see him as being manipulative. Being an SLE I naturally don't see this or see how others could perceive him in this way. All I see is how he lifts the moods of others around him with his playfulness and charm.
Can someone tell me how IEIs are manipulative?
Cheers
I guess that is what is manipulative. Telling a joke is manipulative in itself. Its not necessary bad.
Yeah you kinda answered your own question- trying to influence the mood is manipulative. What if you don't want the mood to be light and playful? (I prefer light and playful too but that's me)
I know to say what people want to hear, and this allows me to control them in a sense. I only do this if my safety and freedom is being threatened though, in serious situations where I have no choice. It's not like I rub my hands together like a comic book villain and twirl my moustche and go 'heh heh I'm being manipulative.' One must often be manipulative in order to survive- because honesty will only keep you stuck. Or in some situations even killed. Tho that's a little extreme. But it happens. It's way too naive to think people will get the real you and understand you and show you social support and compassion and shit lol. That is dangerously naive. But you can get away from them by getting inside their head and outwitting them by telling them things you know they would like.
Manipulation in general sense is not misleading but an influence or control. Sure that F types use emotions for the influence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viktor
I thought about posting some of my thoughts on IEI manipulation , but @Viktor said everything I was thinking and more. This is monumental, dude. It deserves a place high in the “IEI uncovered” lists.
Viktor's post made me question my interactions with others. Thanks for giving me my Four-in-the-afternoon-existential-crisis fix. Sobered me up.
A chain of followers XDQuote:
Originally Posted by Viktor
I guess it fits creative Fe.
F types mostly try to be nice. With weak F it's easier to misunderstand the real relation to you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Viktor
Sometimes they want to make relations closer, for example to better know you. They may then expand the distance.
> Things like "We've met in an earlier life", "twin flames" sounds really special, but they say that to more people than you might think.
In case they want to romantically charm you - that's possible. And P types tend to have more relations.
In other case they say what they think, - it's how to say "I like you" by Ni way.
> Because they wanna build up close relationships with people, I think it's like some hunter gatherer stuff where they know they can't do shit on their own so they need to depend on other people.
we all depend on other people. check superid
> The more assertive IEIs are also really good at leading you on, imagine a histrionic woman with a bunch of guy friends that all think they are gonna get some, and some of them might, but she doesn't have a real interest in any of them.
IEI are playful and feminine to be attractive. So men are around them if they allow. I also saw examples of IEI which prefered long relations.
> All of them think they have a really close special connection with her, so they give her all their attention and shower her with love.
to be T-S type sometimes is hard. I know
> I'm not sure if they do it because they actually want the attention and admiration or because it's some kinda sadistic thing where they get a rush out of controlling people and wasting their time, probably both.
women like to be liked by men. some of them can do it better. and some T-S men do not understand well the real relations between people. to become closer with IEI it needs be more assertive and to show passion to get her, then to kick off the rest "friends" near her. it's her dreams - that one of those friends will behave like her passionate and responsible master :)
> Anyways, the reason why they tell you things you wanna hear, and agree with your beliefs etc is mostly because they don't actually like too intense drama.
They like some drama as all Fe, but only with good reasons. The exception are E-9 which avoid dramas by any way.
> EIEs want drama, IEIs like drama if it's happening to someone else or on tv, but not in their own friend group, they wanna keep that stable. So you can easily make them believe pretty much anything, just because they don't wanna have a confrontation and compromise the friendship.
again, seems E-9 case. and they can mislead you in the degree of mutual interest to hold over the "drama" of broken heart
I'm sorry if you had those issues. It's normal part of relations - they may be worse than you'd want.
A girl show you and others the pleasant relation, you like her for this, you get romantic feelings, but girl wants to stay just friends or alike. Then you either do clever things to move that friendship to more pleasant way for her and then to romance, or become angry and do stupid things which scare that girl to keep you on the distance or do nothing. I understand you excellently, as had friendly communication with E-9 girl with good IR.
I actually like the analysis you did here and you are right it can be used to manipulate people but to me it is only "manipulative" if they don't truly believe it. I have seen all this behavior from other NF and SF types too. Most recently an ESI trying to convince someone he was her TF but he wasn't buying it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Viktor
The term is used mostly to explain a connection you never felt before and sometimes never will again. There are elements of mutual unhealthy obsession which is why it is called "twin flames". If it isn't mutual it isn't TF. Plus when it happens to you have to call it something to distinguish it from everything you have ever known. The person is often your opposite in almost every way. It's like duality on crack or maybe it is what happens when sx firsts get in mutually obsessive romantic relationships. :shrug: I don't really think in those terms anymore but I will describe how I experienced it when I didn't understand some of the psychology around it that I do now.
I can only answer for myself here since I have called one person my "twin flame/soul" and it was a sacred thing to both of us. Others have reminded me of him though in various ways but they weren't him. I love him but I am not in love with him anymore and haven't been in a long time but we still have a strong connection. He is now married with a small child because I was the one who told him to go live his life or he would resent me later for not having children. It was important to him and we wanted different things. I could have been selfish and kept him around for years but I didn't. He still updates me now and then but I have moved on too.
I do get past life impressions. I had one of lungs and bg (keep forgetting their current usernames to mention) when I was rather new here. :p Lungs and I were in a coven in my "vision". BG and I were in Cambodia. Past life stuff just comes out of nowhere and I have learned to censor myself more since people find it too weird but sometimes even if I get something and I know they are open I don't want to tell the person because they might assume it means that we are supposed to be close or something in this life. It is mostly just symbolic; noticing patterns coalesce anyway but takes too much effort to explain to someone since a lot of people will take things too literal when they are not meant to be taken that way. :shifty:
I think you are right about multiple people feeling they are close or special to an IEI (or other NF types) but it doesn't mean the IEI feels the same degree of closeness with all of them. It is often a rude awakening for both when an IEI shifts their attention away from someone to go within or to do something else. It can feel harsh or cold when it isn't meant to be. IEI are dynamic types after all. People can end up feeling hurt by misunderstanding. :/
I'm sure you may get more if use. :) Just need some efforts to look from other sides.Quote:
Originally Posted by Viktor
You look as prejudged due to bad emotions gotten with some IEI and the wish to ignore own mistakes.
Hint: some of or all "IEIs" you know peronally can be other types
Actually, probably. Which types are most manipulative? Maybe this IEI in the example have people around that is just on the other end of the spectrum or maybe IEI are the most manipulative type?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol
YesQuote:
Originally Posted by Tigerfadder
The premises was that all F types somewhat manipulate. But sure T types does it to but in an other expression. Manipulative of IEI seems harmless imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by niffer
NoQuote:
Originally Posted by Tigerfadder
You had problems with those IEI people then?Quote:
Originally Posted by niffer
Edit; I find that Fi people can have more devious manipulative going.
Yeah lol. You're probably the most manipulative one I've ever met. Luckily, you're also far from the smartest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigerfadder
We had you in that discord but you was just hateful.Quote:
Originally Posted by niffer
Some :Fi:/:Fe: creatives may generate quite a whirlwind around people who mistake them as too genuine. Take mental notes of how people rotate around them and what kind of impressions they give to a person and to others and can you make a difference (seriously).
I think :Fi: seekers can be pretty vulnerable in this game.
Well I'm talking about how you emotionally abused me in 2015-2016 over Skype before I ever really got into this forum or discord but alright, go ahead and try to frame me in a thread about IEI manipulation .. LOL. Dumbass.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigerfadder
Some people never change.
Im not framing you and I do not know what you talk about. Creep.Quote:
Originally Posted by niffer
:)
while base Ne types just need a tasty cookie to become vulnerable :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007
I prefer cake.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol
You know that you have encountered LII/LSI when half baked jokes might make them awkwardly laugh or giggle with very little control.
This is great stuff, thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Viktor
Is feeling like they “can’t do shit on their own” common with IEIs? Why do they feel this way?
I think it is the victim stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince Andrei
Its an interesting thought, but honestly I think type and all that is more a social construct and a way to transfer information and group dynamics and dividing job between people. In a situation where you start with being born in the wilderness and be that all your life we all be pretty much equal in this reguard. My ideas about this topic anyways.Quote:
Originally Posted by Viktor
Sure but what I mean is when you are a child, or even older, you "tap" into the information and energy of specific parts when interacting socially. So you notice for example you are strong when interacting with people and so you start to develop an identity as where you are strong. You recognize that people you identify with move their body in a way and you start to take on those traits. So you develop in a way that you will age and look like a specific way because you act a specific way because of what is your identity which is a social construct. xdQuote:
Originally Posted by Viktor
What about EII? They have the same strengths and weaknesses (dimensionality-wise).Quote:
Originally Posted by Viktor
Like all N types are not good with manual work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Viktor
> But having 1D Se and Te limits how independent you can be, you'd need a social context.
in general, all types and functions are equal for life
Manipulation by definition is unscrupulous influence over people. So it has negative connotations. Being manipulative is trait of personality disorders like psychopathy and it's not trait of personality type. Sure, Fe likes to influence people but you can't say that in every case it's malignant. Annoying at worst.
I noticed that the word "manipulation" is improperly used very often (I hope so), I think what you really mean is "trying to influence" without bad connotations.
Is this how most people view IEIs? IEIs are so misunderstood. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Viktor
Btw, the most manipulative person I ever met is an ESI, they actually use suicide to manipulate people into giving in to them during a disagreement, and they even bragged to me about this entire incident..
So I doubt manipulation has anything to do with a person's socionics type. When a person is manipulative, they usually have some sort of mental illness in them or some sort of personality disorders, so I'll look into that first before attributing it to their socionics type.
Clyde is a great diplomat :content:
How would you describe it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermit Soul
They can hold the bag of nails and tell the LSE how awesome they are and what good things are possible. Fetching hammers and other tools as soon as possible when requested. Haha!Quote:
Originally Posted by Viktor
A healthy IEI is hardly manipulative at all. Despite not valuing Fi, IEIs actually have strong Fi, so I often find myself getting strong feelings about things, especially about ethical related things. To me, manipulating my loved ones is just wrong. It's dishonest, it's unethical. At least, that is how my demonstrative Fi viewed it. Also, if I care about someone, I'd want to be as honest with them as possible, because having a good relationship with someone requires honesty, and manipulating someone is far from honesty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince Andrei
The only time I wouldn't hesitate to manipulate someone is when either me or my loved ones encounter a dangerous situation. Let's say there is someone who kidnapped my loved ones, and during this situation my manipulative side would start coming out because I want to rescue my loved ones. I'll call the police, and then I'll prepare a bag filled with fake cash to lure the kidnapper out of their hiding place. This is the only kind of situation that I'll be manipulative, because it's a critical situation, and I have to get my loved ones out to safety.
This is why IEIs are just perfect! Full of inexpressibly delightful character traits that come through at critical moments.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermit Soul
I make the same observation as you do here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Viktor
It would take IMMENSE personal revelation to notice where you could improve and it would be a conscious effort, instead of a naturally occurring process from childhood, with years and years of exposure. Even so, you could never replicate seasons after seasons of numerous events, let's say rough and tumble play, for example wrestling on a trampoline during the summer with your brothers and sister and neighbourhood friends.
As an adult, you could take martial arts courses, take up BMX biking, take swimming classes, and maybe start going out of comfort zone and physically contacting people in a playful way to kinda make up for lost time. IMO the better adults in my life are still connected to that childlike ability to play and have fun - and no I'm not talking about childlike in socionic terms.
However, its almost impossible to duplicate experiences of a child growing up by acting different as an adult (but probably not impossible if you had the right mind set, imo those kinds of mindset are SUPREMELY rare and challenging to cultivate unless maybe through altered states of consciousness brought on by traditional forms like military occupations, other vocational changes, music genres that promote Se, dance, youtube subcultures - think paleo, sport groups, recreational groups, and mind altering drugs. These are solutions to trigger the revelations I first mentioned, difficult, but probably not impossible). By age 25-30, much of the ground work has already been set.
For this reason, its challenging to date a only child, for me, as they have strange sense of boundaries (often to few in both directions) and little ability to push back when they suffer mild joking blows. Very thin skinned in numerous ways from the physical to the psychological.
This is accurate, at least from my own experience. IEIs have little faith in their abilities with Se and Te so they use their other skills to compensate. IEIs know how to identify what other people are good at and what those people want. And by pulling on those levers, the IEI can have a chance to make up for his or her difficulties in these arenas of life through wits alone, meanwhile in return helping others validate themselves by realizing their own best abilities get other people to do shit for them. Call it networking, building up resources, delegating, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Viktor
I do not think Se is the biggest problem for IEIs or even ILIs. For IEIs its mainly to make profit out of their tasks, getting a reward for their work and energy. Se problems are more related to EIIs and LIIs.
For life as a whole. They are not all equal in each pocket and niche.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol
A thread about IEI manipulation and Zero anecdotes thus far? Shame on you thread.
So I was playing Poker at Ds house. We had a big group that night. M, K, P, and me all showed up. We were the usual. B, B2, U and J played too. This was rare for any of them. And lastly S was there with his girlfriend A and her friend C. A & C were super fine and that's all that's really relevant to this story.
So we got like 12 people inside this little ass side room sitting around a poker table. I realize everyone still has on their sweaters, but it's viscerally uncomfortable enough in the room no one is noticing or comfortable enough to take off their sweater. It's also getting hot from so much body heat.
So. I have an idea. I take off my sweatshirt and my top shirt. A couple minutes go by and I say, you guys are crazy. How does everyone one of you still have your layers on, aren't you hot? And that's that.
A and C seem to ring it over in their head until it occurs to them that they're sweating bullets. They take off their sweaters and cleavage galore. Boobies all popping out. Everybody is super close because of the room.
Half the room looks at me like I'm the Messiah. I leaned over and said that's how you win a battle.
The game presses on. The girls can feel the stares and they're getting thrown off, the guys are starting and getting thrown off, and everyone is playing terribly until it's just me and S left. I say split the pot? We agree and I whisper, that's how you win the war. S is IEI too, he knew what was going on.
And that's how we both came up a hundred bucks.
I have an example of how I am manipulative. I'm very good at predicting where a conversation is going and subtly manipulating the flow to avoid embarrassing or personal topics I don't want to talk about.
I'm a very honest person, and if anyone asks me a direct question, I feel like I have to answer it, unless I had some ethical reason why I couldn't, like if it related to a friend's secret told to me in confidence. In that case, I try to not answer any leading questions about my friends, because if you answer "Yes. Yes. Yes. Oh, I can't tell you" it is obvious that the last is really a "no". You can't give away a baseline.
A lot of people tell me secrets, I guess because I am an easy person to trust. My primary tactic of keeping those secrets is to never even hint at what I might know, because that gives a target that someone use to pressure me. I kind of hope that if anyone tells me something in confidence, they feel like they are the first person to do so.
But since I rely on secrecy to be an honest person that can not be taken advantage of, I would be alarmed if it was obvious what I was doing all the time. Maybe the IEIs that come off as manipulative are more expressive and not as careful as I am.
:eek::crying::(Quote:
Originally Posted by Viktor
I get your point but that last one is probably not true.
That's a really solid way to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by sindri
Haha this is too funny!!! Great story, but I see this much more as IEI cheekiness and playfulness not as serious manipulation. If I were duped by an IEI like this I’d just laugh it off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pookie
I had lots of friends in those days, very popular. These days I'm fairly reclusive for innumerable reasons all understood by me. Doing socially sounds foreign to my ears, as its not a concern for me as it might be for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Viktor
Yep, I was about whole life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pookie
Anyway, people live not in pockets. There is always context of "whole life" while we dig in different pockets.
Also to dig in pockets it's possibly by different ways, including with more use of your strong functions.
The example of LSE - we are bad at intuitively feeling time, but can make good plans and reach the goals by our base T - by the common reason and knowledge. In relations we are bad too, but can use Socionics to choose with whome to deal with.
I saw how F types emotionally manipulated to get better place in life - they were not better, but were more pleasant for those who makes decisions and such got it. N types are worse at fighting, but can feel bad matches of "time and place" and people to do not mess with.
After my experiences talking to you I do too.Quote:
Originally Posted by sindri
Why do you want this? See, this is creepy and for self-serving purposes. You want each person who talks to you to feel special, loved and listened to and then you try to base connections on people having this false belief. Creating such false beliefs and baseless feelings in others is dishonest, selfish and manipulative. It exactly illustrates what some of the posters in this thread have gotten at, at the worst and most insidious level: that of close relationships rather than a level of dicking around for fun. Nothing is sacred to some IEIs, and they never even consider properly how low quality their own morals and behaviour could be.Quote:
I kind of hope that if anyone tells me something in confidence, they feel like they are the first person to do so.
Because your idea is sad and sounds like an impossible train you could never get off from.Quote:
Originally Posted by Viktor
Hey you are back :)Quote:
Originally Posted by niffer
Quote:
Originally Posted by sindri
Why do you want this? See, this is creepy and for self-serving purposes. You want each person who talks to you to feel special, loved and listened to and then you try to base connections on people having this false belief. Creating such false beliefs and baseless feelings in others is dishonest, selfish and manipulative. It exactly illustrates what some of the posters in this thread have gotten at, at the worst and most insidious level: that of close relationships rather than a level of dicking around for fun. Nothing is sacred to some IEIs, and they never even consider properly how low quality their own morals and behaviour could be.
Also, nooo?? In the past, I've mentioned things people told me that I thought was public knowledge, but they actually wanted to be secret. I can't always tell the difference, so I now try to assume most things people tell me are private. Its difficult, because sometimes the things you're thinking about just come out in conversation. If people are not aware of the things I'm trying not to say, even inadvertently, that means I'm a good closed book and that's proof I can be trusted. It has nothing to do with making a person feel special :? I could care less.
Its like if a person is telling you a lot of gossip, that's the person who is going to be gossiping about you. If someone is cheating to be with you, even if they end their relationship to start one with you, you can bet they will cheat on you with someone else. If someone makes an "special exception" to tell you someone else's secret, you're not special, and you can count on that person giving your secret to someone else. People don't change, what they do with one person they are likely to do with everyone.
... See the saving grace of dealing with the shittier IEIs is that even though they're shady mofos, they are also dense and easy to see through (kind of a paradox) if you have a critical mind.
@sindri All that you said didn't even address what I highlighted from you. You didn't explain why needing the other person to feel that certain way was relevant to that stuff. It remains to be accounted for. You went and diverted focus to a different part of the issue rather than doing that.
The "feeling" was just an expression, since most people are not very abstract about their evaluations of people. The point is, I hope people can't think of a time I told them someone else's secret, because if someone tells me other people's secrets, I don't trust them. No need to throw shade man.Quote:
Originally Posted by niffer
I don't buy it. And I'll throw all the shade that I want, and remember this is based on my past experience with you too. You rely too much on how people will react towards you to inform your behaviours and how you treat them rather than from some kind of internal moral fibre about treating those you care about well. Moreover what person who is genuinely honest to the core needs to make a post explaining how in a thread like this, as if they have a need to prove it to themselves too maybe. You have exceptionally low integrity and an inability to handle direct cofrontation even for an IEI I feel.Quote:
Originally Posted by sindri
I think it's important to point out that I am a great person and I need all of you to recognize that.
https://imgur.com/RYgbRgKhttps://i.imgur.com/RYgbRgK.jpg
This one is one potential IEI. Criminal womanizer Ruben Oskar Auervaara.
He pretty much took rich women's money by sweet talking to them.
One story about him. He met rich woman and talked her to marry him. Then he ''bought" the rings. It turned out that her ring was too small and he needed money to make it bigger. He made her to write a confirmation letter in which she gave him the money without words about the ring.
He hung himself and spent 20 years of his life in prison.
Great romantic. His letters were full of that imaginary. IEI, confirmed.
He grew up in poor family surrounded by rich people. Then he started to cheat people out of their money.
Apparently died as a virgin. He was possibly an asexual.
I see nothing wrong in making other people open jars of pickles for you throughout life. If you smile and shower them with sweet talk, then they're getting something in return as well, aren't they?
But I don't think manipulation in and out of itself is strictly type related. Yes, IEIs COULD perhaps be considered the mastermind when it comes to handling others like puppets on a string, but If I were to really believe in the fact that manipulation is type related, I'd say EIEs handle it way better. But I don't.
This reminds me of that Stratievskaya article about an IEI who was a total player and kept bouncing between his wife and his mistress. I felt disgusted by that practice at first, to be honest.
SLEs can manipulate you through force, EIIs can manipulate you via guilt tripping and so on.
Does my opinion matter, since you asked IEIs for experience? No idea. But since half the forum types me IEI/Beta NF (despite me being skeptical about it) I guess they paved the way into this thread for me. I'm a honorary IEI.
Goodnight, sweet Prince (Andrei).
I find ethical types often practice persuasion, which can be ill-intended or well-intended.
Usually it's well intended with the purpose of drawing friends and family to start new endeavors, make the right choices, etc.
This is kinda odd to me as a form of argumentation, ethical types want to to convince, I want to discover objective truth, facts, etc. The latter seems true of logical types generally.
Oh shut up, the both of you. Inbox was invented for a reason.
Anywaay, I do think IEIs are manipulative but it's more in an obvious manner, for example exaggerating how good one's dressing looks in order for them to be liked, or trying to talk dirty about someone else so that the person they like doesn't become friends with them. I personally find it quite obvious and really don't like it when the IEIs I know get gossipy and talk shit about people they don't like to make other people not like them. Personal experience.
IEIs instinctively know of the Benjamin Franklin effect. More on that is here if you're not familiar with it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Franklin_effectQuote:
Originally Posted by Penny Dreadful
In short, it's an observable psychological phenomenon whereby having done a favour for someone once you're more inclined to do another favour for them where ostensibly you would think it would mean the reverse in that the other person is more likely to do you a favour for having done them one. The explanation for this behaviour is cognitive dissonance. People reason that they help others because they like them, even if they do not, because their minds struggle to maintain logical consistency between their actions and perceptions.
But you can see why the IEI is matched with SLE. An SLE sees his environment as littered with objects with those objects orbiting him in concentric circles with those objects closer to him easier to control and those further away resisting his influence and direction. The IEI willingly moves himself into those inner circles with the SLE welcoming this and considering it his duty to protect him in turn for his patronage. But the IEI by moving closer actually controls the SLE through the 'soft' power of emotional influence.
How's that for a penny for my thoughts? A nickel for a kiss? A dime if you tell me that you love me.
I'm Dreadfully sorry to disappoint you, but the most i can offer you for a Penny is a story:Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince Andrei
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AAkR3kPv4E
But I guess it's still better than what you've got so far on this thread. Let this be a learning experience for you: Ask a question on t16types.com and you'll only get more questions in return.
People attacking others and defending themselves, this place is the most Beta site i've ever been on. Make yourself comfortable.
Manipulative behavior is not type related since NTs, STs and SFs do it as well. What most people are talking about is emotional influence here which is not done with intention to harm. I used to call it all "manipulation" too when referring to behavior of different NFs before I realized manipulation is usually seen as being unscrupulous.
http://www.talentsmart.com/articles/...46691-p-1.htmlQuote:
9 Signs You’re Dealing With an Emotional Manipulator
We all know what it feels like to be emotionally manipulated. It can be extremely effective, which is why some unscrupulous individuals do it so much.
A few years ago, Facebook, in conjunction with researchers from Cornell and the University of California, conducted an experiment in which they intentionally played with the emotions of 689,000 users by manipulating their feeds so that some users only saw negative stories while others only saw positive stories. Sure enough, when these people posted their own updates, they were greatly influenced by the mood of the posts they’d been shown.
Facebook caught a lot of flak over the experiment, primarily because none of the “participants” gave their consent to join the study. Perhaps more frightening than Facebook’s faux pas was just how easily people’s emotions were manipulated. After all, if Facebook can manipulate your emotions just by tweaking your newsfeed, imagine how much easier this is for a real, live person who knows your weaknesses and triggers. A skilled emotional manipulator can destroy your self-esteem and even make you question your sanity.
It’s precisely because emotional manipulation can be so destructive that it’s important for you to recognize it in your own life. It’s not as easy as you might think, because emotional manipulators are typically very skillful. They start out with subtle manipulation and raise the stakes over time, so slowly that you don’t even realize it’s happening. Fortunately, emotional manipulators are easy enough to spot if you know what to look for.
1. They undermine your faith in your grasp of reality. Emotional manipulators are incredibly skilled liars. They insist an incident didn’t happen when it did, and they insist they did or said something when they didn’t. The trouble is they’re so good at it that you end up questioning your own sanity. To insist that whatever caused the problem is a figment of your imagination is an extremely powerful way of getting out of trouble.
2. Their actions don’t match their words. Emotional manipulators will tell you what you want to hear, but their actions are another story. They pledge their support, but, when it comes time to follow through, they act as though your requests are entirely unreasonable. They tell you how lucky they are to know you, and then act as though you’re a burden. This is just another way of undermining your belief in your own sanity. They make you question reality as you see it and mold your perception according to what is convenient to them.
3. They are experts at doling out guilt. Emotional manipulators are masters at leveraging your guilt to their advantage. If you bring up something that’s bothering you, they make you feel guilty for mentioning it. If you don’t, they make you feel guilty for keeping it to yourself and stewing on it. When you’re dealing with emotional manipulators, whatever you do is wrong, and, no matter what problems the two of you are having, they’re your fault.
4. They claim the role of the victim. When it comes to emotional manipulators, nothing is ever their fault. No matter what they do—or fail to do —it’s someone else’s fault. Someone else made them do it—and, usually, it’s you. If you get mad or upset, it’s your fault for having unreasonable expectations; if they get mad, it’s your fault for upsetting them. Emotional manipulators don’t take accountability for anything.
5. They are too much, too soon. Whether it’s a personal relationship or a business relationship, emotional manipulators always seem to skip a few steps. They share too much too soon—and expect the same from you. They portray vulnerability and sensitivity, but it’s a ruse. The charade is intended to make you feel “special” for being let into their inner circle, but it’s also intended to make you feel not just sorry for them but also responsible for their feelings.
6. They are an emotional black hole. Whatever emotional manipulators are feeling, they’re geniuses at sucking everyone around them into those emotions. If they’re in a bad mood, everyone around them knows it. But that’s not the worst part: they’re so skillful that, not only is everyone aware of their mood, they feel it too. This creates a tendency for people to feel responsible for the manipulator’s moods and obliged to fix them.
7. They eagerly agree to help—and maybe even volunteer—then act like a martyr. An initial eagerness to help swiftly morphs into sighs, groans, and suggestions that whatever they agreed to do is a huge burden. And, if you shine a spotlight on that reluctance, they’ll turn it around on you, assuring you that, of course, they want to help and that you’re just being paranoid. The goal? To make you feel guilty, indebted, and maybe even crazy.
8. They always one-up you. No matter what problems you may have, emotional manipulators have it worse. They undermine the legitimacy of your complaints by reminding you that their problems are more serious. The message? You have no reason to complain, so shut the heck up.
9. They know all your buttons and don’t hesitate to push them. Emotional manipulators know your weak spots, and they’re quick to use that knowledge against you. If you’re insecure about your weight, they comment on what you eat or the way your clothes fit; if you’re worried about an upcoming presentation, they point out how intimidating and judgmental the attendees are. Their awareness of your emotions is off the charts, but they use it to manipulate you, not to make you feel better.
Edit: Not saying IEI can't be manipulative in unscrupulous ways. I have been and when I was I knew why I was doing it. It is not common for me to act unscrupulous though and not common for other IEIs, I know, who aren't psychologically unhealthy. I was not at my best during the time I was.
I have seen this as well but not just with IEI. I can tell when someone is doing it to me since it is kind of obvious they are doing it to make me not like the other person. I have probably done it but can't think of an example. With the ExI, I know, it is a bit different. They would actually tell me the bad things about the other person and ask me to stop talking to someone they didn't like outright. When I didn't they would start acting passive aggressive toward me for not breaking the other connection. My own sister did that to me. I have never told her to stop talking to someone she liked because I didn't like them. I hardly spent time with her friends anyway. They thought I was too weird for their mad tea parties. :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaebette
I think Fi holds grudges longer than I do so even if I am mad at someone in the moment and vent I might be over it way before my sister gets over it if I tell her about it. For that reason I learned not to vent to her about my bf or they would pay the price long term for my moment of venting.
I would say humanitarians are subject to a lot of nasty projections because their behavior may be construed from the lens of social behavior, but also that it cuts both ways with socials being looked at negatively through a humanitarian lens, so the important thing is to realize that people are generally trying to be good, its just they're aiming at slightly different things, but that doesn't make people enemies necessarily or bad people. the question itself presumes a quantum of evil I think is mostly illusory so I'd like to deflect onto that
Using IEI manipulation to get the job done:
I got a lot of praise from an EIE boss of mine because I could soothe irate customers without having to call him in. Due to the place being very understaffed and all of the existing employees being busy or out of the office most of the time, I invented a lot of tricks and routines to keep our low-star business humming.
For example, I justified the (initially) completely unorganized records office to customers who needed copies by telling them that we were "reworking the organizational system". Since we were reworking the organizational system, I explained, it was somewhat time consuming to find stuff. I was not a liar; this was very technically true. Very technically, moving folders out of random hidden piles and into actual alphabetized cabinets is, technically, an organizational redo.
Taking a class on consumer psychology right now and I am recognizing a lot of the instinctual maneuvers I did at that job in my textbook.
Phew. Hold on. Wait a minute. Total inception. I sense conspiracy. Me, desperately trying to find out how and whether IEIs are actually manipulative now
In a thread populated with IEI posters???
And even more chaos which is manipulative in and of itself
further obscuring the topic
while my own reaction to this also manipulates my thoughts because that's how my delusional brain works:
http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/tmhnks.gif
Please does someone have all the answers
The last part is so true, and has happened to me with nearly all my friends and family who complain about their boyfriends then get back together with them. I'm always remembering more than them, like "don't you remember when he was flirting with your best friend and this and that?". It's not really about holding grudges but more about keeping in mind what someone did to you in order to govern your feelings or actions towards them. Till now I remember the littlest things that my boyfriend did to hurt me even before we started dating (and that's over 3 years ago) and randomly lash out to him about them when I'm drunk or really mad, and he's shocked I even remember. Fi is a curse man.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aylen
If Fi is a curse, what's the cure?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaebette
Fi would use more likely manipulation, while Fe extortion and threats ime.
If I knew, I'd have used it ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
I'm glade you got the joke XD Sometime my humor is too meta.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chae
/
On a serious note though, I've noticed especially EIEs, but sometime IEIs, like to embody what they see is wrong, because they identify with the people around them, and don't mind being the fall guy for the broader problem, especially if it brings it light and helps resolve it. I think Faust and The Picture of Dorian Grey are both examples of this trait.
Here is a comic my EIE friend made a few years ago that illustrates what I'm talking about better than I can: http://philiptrauma.tumblr.com/post/94229720268#notes
edit: also, I wouldn't be surprised if lots of Beta humanitarian movie actors take lots roles as villains for this same reason, Like American History X.
well you got the first part right- I do get gossipy and talk shit about people I don't like; but I don't really care if other people agree or not. =pQuote:
I personally find it quite obvious and really don't like it when the IEIs I know get gossipy and talk shit about people they don't like to make other people not like them.
I think that those who really think that a type, a huge number of people, is manipulative is really lost in the woods. A few IEI probably are and we can discuss how they do it. But those who reduce a type like that is not good enough to be listen to.
I would say what appears manipulative is subjective and based on the other using information one considers off-limits to meet their goals. so like if Fi is zone of fears Fi creative could seem manipulative (because they're used to seeing it only as a byproduct of functions they're more comfortable with), same with Ni etc. to a lesser extent ignoring tries to control use of that function (mainly by limiting it) and so might consider free use of it to be manipulative, etc. in other words, like Tigerfadder says its very much a matter of perspective
It's said in socionics that IEIs have the most malleable minds. If somebody knows people and knows the psyche and can be flexible and adaptable on the spot, well...
There's capability and then there's intent. I'm sure if you had such a useful tool under your belt like this, you wouldn't let it go to waste. You'd use it for little white lies, avoiding getting in trouble, things like that at the very least. Obviously not 100% of one type is 100% anything, that should be a given already. But there ceases to be any observations deemed worthwhile to discuss if we just downplay the significance of trends or state obvious things like bringing up subjectivity and values being involved. I guess those things need to be brought up once in a while as a reminder though.
Its funny how bertrand just automatically assumes my Fi thread was about some shadow vision of Fi. Its also funny how out of touch he is with the manipulative versions of it seeing how he frequently played manipulation games last year in full view although it went over most heads, which is what Fi manipulation does. He also wrongly seems to assume I took manipulative to mean the negative connotations.
”What who? Little ol me?” *blink blink* “I never did such a thing”—- impression of bertrand.
Classic IEE especially when they are in the wrong and trying to dodge out of it.
finally some IEE validation around here :RIP:
Lol : p