Enduring isolation/loneliness

I know few Beta NF and few Delta NF. I noticed that Beta NF (ILI also) can live alone, don't interact much with people for so long without feeling the need to do so and it often doesn't bother them that much. Where Delta NF would probably feel weird to be in such situation, and they need people to share what they know with (Ne I guess), but for Beta NF (and ILI) I can easily see them living in an isolated, far place, without having any problem with it.

if it's type or function related, have you noticed a similar or another pattern? And if it's Ni related, what about Alpha NT and LIE?

that's weird because I would expect Fe would want people more than Ne, especially someone like Hamlet who needs an audience and Yesenin who seeks a wing to come under the protection of. Te valuing seems more likely to be self sufficient. That said, Fi probably doesn't find itself lonely simply because it is good at building real relationships, and if not a gang at least a few one-on-ones. In the end stereotypes are just that. I'm sure behaviorally it all runs the gamut. I feel like ILIs are the biggest loners at least from a social perspective. even they have families and close relationships most the time, I'd think

The Beta NF I've met are also similar to ILI in a way. And both even though they interacted and got along with people and their strengths become apparent there. But I still see them capable of living an isolated life...

I'd say it depends on the ethics in the first place. :Fi: limits interaction, :Fe: broadens it. So technically intuition can only get in the way for the Beta NFs like this: Maybe :Ni: drives them to think they lived through everything already and they don't bother. At the very most, :Fe: will go on a strike if they feel like they don't fit in, don't resonate, are misunderstood and so on.

While the Delta NFs, particularly IEE, will see all this potential and throw themselves into the mix to bond at a whim, and will always give a second chance until the line is crossed. Meanwhile IEI might just wait something out... and wait... and gets lost, not even participating in the first place. The thing is, all the NFs are strong in those four elements so cases may vary tremendously, especially when you get an SP/SX version for someone, or a reclusive enneagram type.

Alpha NTs generally are suggestive to interaction so they either are provided with it or can indeed be very much alone unless they have the respective social circle already where they will hardly try to escape when the mood is good. They discriminate less there and just contribute. LIE is too industrious not be be out and about. ILI really is the one in Gamma who can be a recluse, probably the most severe case in the socion since they have the self-sufficiency to back it up with logics and don't depend on :Fe:. It's the critic after all, they do well in isolation to watch from afar. SLI might do it better in terms of refinement though, they're the most reclusive sensing type.

Embrace your Aloneness.

"There is pleasure in the pathless woods. There is rapture on the lonely shore" -Lord Byron.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L72G8TLtTCk

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Originally Posted by Chae

I'd say it depends on the ethics in the first place. :Fi: limits interaction, :Fe: broadens it.

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While this may be true in a certain sense, isolation is much more related to high Ni / low Se. ESIs are not isolated, usually quite the opposite (although, ESIs can be choosy about who they interact with).

The most isolated types seem to be ILI, IEI, LII, SLI, EII, and sometimes Ni creative types and LSIs. As for who subjectively feels less bad about being isolated, it's anyone's guess.

I agree, this is hard to answer. Pretty interesting though, which type is least dependent on interaction with others/most dependent?

Is it ILI/LII vs. SEE/ESE? Or is ILI/LII precisely more dependent on it because they are less naturally skilled in it? And which functions are responsible?

Cool thread.

When I was really young I used to think that my isolation was a curse, like the result of being a victim of circumstance, a cast out, ect. Then I learned that lonelilness is a gift and that you always choose it, and in that realization I felt less victimized by these isolating circumstances and came to embrace it fully.

You are always as lonely as you choose to be. Eventually it doesn't feel all that bad and eventually you turn towards it frequently. Yes, this is subjective.

Many elderly feel isolated and alone and that is kinda sad. I used to briefly be a part of a phone program where we would phone a list of elderly just to check up on them and have a short little chat, like 5 mins, every day so that they didn't feel so isolated.

but isn't delta by definition the quadra which pulls itself away from the hustle and bustle of society? like dolphin's article on quadra progression where she uses the metaphor of the abyss to explain how beta mingles within the abyss near its very depths while delta stands atop the abyss looking down below

for simplicity's sake, Fe is oriented toward groups of people while Se is oriented toward tangible activity, meaning that the beta quadra requires the most stereotypical examples of socialization in order to fuel their Fe and Se channels like a social feedback loop, that's how they test the strength of their romantic relationships and I believe it works similarly with their platonic connections. I do agree that IEI (especially Ni-sub) would be less reliant on that social feedback loop, but I still catch them moving toward highly social events (i.e. concerts, festivals, etc) for the sole purpose of feeding off that social energy, like they're just quiet bystanders who find it stimulating by proxy of being loosely associated with it. whereas the idea behind Ne is more along the lines of indirect and implicit interaction with one's environment (in terms of social settings, I mean) and the idea behind devaluing Se/Ni in favor of Si/Ne is that you're less likely to go out of your way to make things happen, and by that I mean deltas almost seem to collect friendships by accident, then they strive to make the best of those "accidents" (not mistakes, more like pleasant surprises) which they hold close to their heart, even if years pass and there's little to no direct communication between them and their friends, they still trust in the strength of those friendships (Fi-Si specifically). I think EII and SLI exemplify this attitude the best, because they're what I think of when I imagine a "quiet existence", like I just imagine this visual of someone sitting alone on their patio while they quietly greet random passersby, maybe they make a few friends along the way, sometimes they touch base again in the future, sometimes they never meet again, but they still have confidence in the fact that even if they can't immediately "see" or "feel" it, it's still there

otherwise I'd say that delta is more concerned with self-actualization than socialization and sometimes that road can be long and lonely. IEEs and EIEs are social creatures a la their extraversion, but even then I'd still argue that EIE (Fx in leading position) relies on direct forms of socialization a lot more than IEE. in fact I think IEI and IEE are more similar in their approach to social settings, in that they're probably more-or-less content with the social energy

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Originally Posted by Daisy

I know few Beta NF and few Delta NF. I noticed that Beta NF (ILI also) can live alone, don't interact much with people for so long without feeling the need to do so and it often doesn't bother them that much. Where Delta NF would probably feel weird to be in such situation, and they need people to share what they know with (Ne I guess), but for Beta NF (and ILI) I can easily see them living in an isolated, far place, without having any problem with it.

if it's type or function related, have you noticed a similar or another pattern? And if it's Ni related, what about Alpha NT and LIE?

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Good post.

A lot of it is determined by circumstance, people's current life position.

From a functional perspective, Fi mobilzing in SLI and ILI makes them want to be close to people, to like people. It's something i've had in my life, a desire to be close to people. Often i've messed this up though, so I go the opposite way, not the opposite, but neutral in many cases (as a defense mechanism against my Fi mobilzing, which seems to be reasonably effective).

IP in general can be a bit detached, the most out of all the types, but, I know an EIE who is very much detached from society/interaction. The EIE in particular, I think she sees herself as better, more aloof than the drudgery of existence, maybe it's too common for her or something (not quite sure, but it's like this.)

So maybe they are detached for different reasons.

But, I think EII and IEE create closeness with people, because Fi is about relationships, bringing closeness, warm feelings, love, affection. With Ne it seems to be better placed to observe the possibilities to create those connections, and of course share their observations.

Deltas can escape the hussle and bussle of society, but for different reasons. Typically they want to escape the shallow competitive rat race (non Se valuing), whereas Beta NF secretly live in a world of castles and having royal connections (secretly it's because they think they're better, and would want their will imposed on the world - Se valuing,)

Lately, i've been more self-conscious about being a recluse than I used to be a few years back. The title of social outcast didn't really bother me as a tween, but lately i've come to crave connections and social interaction more.

And it's weird, because as soon as I get myself 'out there' i want to be back inside after 5 minutes. I guess I'm just not surrounded by 'the right people'. If the atmosphere or the people are good, it can hook me up for hours. But if not, pleasegetmeoutofhere.

I think by being by self one can hook out the influences of others and find out their own values and who they are. When there is always people around influencing you and your thoughts you will always be interfered. Some people get more influenced than others and I think those who merge most with others and so their own self be gone can benefit of solitude.

For example the harmonizer might need solitude more than the normalizer.

There are socialites and recluses of every quadra. How social someone is depends on Socionics club, positivist/negativist dichotomy, Enneagram type and instinct stacking, and a bunch of other stuff. There are even SEEs who are fairly introverted compared to some other extroverts.

From my experience I can live alone no problem but I always work so I have friends there. I know IEE who almost committed suicide when leaving alone.

it relates to I. but extraverts may adopt to some degree

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Originally Posted by thehotelambush

While this may be true in a certain sense, isolation is much more related to high Ni / low Se. ESIs are not isolated, usually quite the opposite (although, ESIs can be choosy about who they interact with).

The most isolated types seem to be ILI, IEI, LII, SLI, EII, and sometimes Ni creative types and LSIs. As for who subjectively feels less bad about being isolated, it's anyone's guess.

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My ESI friend is reclusive and used to tell me that she could live alone all her life. I thought that maybe because she values Ni, and she's Fi subtype, so Ni in this case will be strengthened. She focuses more on her tasks/goals and doesn't need much interaction. She's also a highly sensitive person so that can be the reason. But she was the only ESI like this, other ESIs I've met were not isolated.

I'd say I prefer social interaction and being recluse makes me depressed. It seems that I treat myself badly. Relationally quite reliable, I think.

I prefer these DarkAngelFireWolf69 descriptions, although I'm not so sure about parties (it is relative and depends what it is about)

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7. Brake function + R - relationship ethics
He communicates with people on a short psychological distance. Relations are assessed by the degree of their democracy. The less formalism and ceremonies, the better for him. It is very inconsistent in relation to their relatives or friends. That is democratic to familiarity, then suddenly severe and impregnable, like with strangers. People who turn to him for help can render this help unselfishly. It can be very difficult for him to spoil relations, refusing a person to communicate. Feels his connectedness with relationships. Do not hesitate to share personal problems with others. It is inclined to discuss the features of people's behavior or their way of life.

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4. Start-up function -E - ethics of emotions
He loves companies, parties, emotional communication. Without nourishing positive emotions for a long time remains in a lazy apathetic state. Always ready for a stormy exchange of views, an interesting dispute. The emotion responds to emotion, therefore it is important not to overdose the degree of involvement, otherwise in a fit of inspiration, the initial point of disagreement is forgotten. In an emotional excited state, he speaks quickly and chaotically. Thoughts begin to overtake their expression in words. The speech from this becomes illegible. He has very sharp mood swings, Noise, humor, cheerfulness are replaced by depression and unsociability.

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Originally Posted by at sirac son of sirac

IP in general can be a bit detached, the most out of all the types, but, I know an EIE who is very much detached from society/interaction. The EIE in particular, I think she sees herself as better, more aloof than the drudgery of existence, maybe it's too common for her or something (not quite sure, but it's like this.)

So maybe they are detached for different reasons.

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It's common for EIEs to be like that imo because they're Ni creative. I feel that IEIs are kinda similar but just cover it with that Fe creative. And them not valuing Fi reinforce it.

It's true, I've also made that observation. The Beta NFs i know come alive and show bright emotionality and try to control group dynamics WHEN they're in a group of people, but are very much isolated. I find them to be lonely sometimes, or slightly depressed.
The LSIs I know are also the same, without the depression. It's not important for them to be around people a lot, unless those people are really close friends. They're comfortable being alone, and can handle extreme isolation and loneliness surprisingly well. But then again,the ones i've met are all Sp-first.

This might be related to having a 5 fix (or at least not having a 7 fix -- and if that is the case, there must be a strong connection to 5). Being So last (or at least not So first) probably matters too. But in any case, INxx types probably have it easier, but the winner is probably SLI. SLI's are loners by nature. As an exception, LIEs are often very capable of enduring loneliness (it is described in some russian text that LIE's are not bothered at all by being alone, and I find it true in my case. The description said that Jacks are often found performing solitary jobs such as a forest ranger).

I don't mind loneliness as long as i am Active and have a job to do. But it is much better with some daily human contact.

Loneliness is the hell that nobody will confess to, and too many judge another harshly for enduring.

One day, I will write a longer post that elucidates on exactly why loneliness has become such a problem in the West, for outside it I have met many people in abject poverty, even situations of war, who are happy just because they belong to someone or something more.

For now, here are a few pointers...

Firstly; keep yourself busy. It does not matter what with, but above all, do not allow yourself to become mentally idle. An idle man is a dissatisfied man. Maybe you don't have a job. Maybe you don't have a wife. Maybe you don't have a family. Guess what - you are still a person who has something to express; that is your purpose. The world has never had more possibilities available to those who will dare to take advantage of them. Use social media to keep abreast of festivities in your area. Get out every day either in the morning or afternoon, regardless of the weather - and discover what your environment has to offer, or not. Distill the meaning of what you have observed. Network with as many people as possible. Impose yourself, make an impression. Aim to tread a different path every day, even if this means to only take a different route home, or by different means. Variety or invention is the genesis of creativity.

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Originally Posted by Cuivienen

Loneliness is the hell that nobody will confess to, and too many judge another harshly for enduring.

One day, I will write a longer post that elucidates on exactly why loneliness has become such a problem in the West, for outside it I have met many people in abject poverty, even situations of war, who are happy just because they belong to someone or something more.

For now, here are a few pointers...

Firstly; keep yourself busy. It does not matter what with, but above all, do not allow yourself to become mentally idle. An idle man is a dissatisfied man. Maybe you don't have a job. Maybe you don't have a wife. Maybe you don't have a family. Guess what - you are still a person who has something to express; that is your purpose. The world has never had more possibilities available to those who will dare to take advantage of them. Use social media to keep abreast of festivities in your area. Get out every day either in the morning or afternoon, regardless of the weather - and discover what your environment has to offer, or not. Distill the meaning of what you have observed. Network with as many people as possible. Impose yourself, make an impression. Aim to tread a different path every day, even if this means to only take a different route home, or by different means. Variety or invention is the genesis of creativity.

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This actually made me smile, as the past days have been treating me poorly and left me feeling like a shit stained canvas.

Even more surprised that this feeling came from a post of yours that's not bashing feminism :P

I know some ILE who can live alone. Like online only

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Originally Posted by Penny Dreadful

This actually made me smile, as the past days have been treating me poorly and left me feeling like a shit stained canvas.

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Sadness is a natural emotion to feel; it is neither good nor bad, but is merely is a transient state which will pass in time if allowed to surface.
I suggest that you make the most of it: you have an opportunity to create something personally meaningful.

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Originally Posted by Penny Dreadful

Even more surprised that this feeling came from a post of yours that's not bashing feminism :P

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They are battered, bruised and heavily soiled, so I'm giving them the day off.

I can't live alone.

Imagine working all day, putting up with work colleagues, then coming home and putting up with someone else.

It's like overtime, but you are paying.

No?

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Originally Posted by at sirac son of sirac

Imagine working all day, putting up with work colleagues, then coming home and putting up with someone else.

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Go live like a bear in the woods - wild, untamed and free.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/8gZp_yZ3aog/maxresdefault.jpg

I usually like being alone because the old adage 'hell is other people' is most often true.

Like Gilly used to say though no matter what you're doing life has its ups and downs naturally and one moment you will feel great and the next you will feel horrible (even if you're just sitting in bed thinking or trying not to think... it's the ebb and flow of existence or something) ... I prefer being alone most of the time and it feels like chains are being lifted from me when I get some 'me' time, but I do get lonely and I miss certain people. 'certain' being the key caveat there. 'Cause let's be honest. Most people are in an adversarial relationship with you and would throw a party if they got to watch you die in a horribly sadistic way, so it's better to just avoid them and focus on those who really care about you, even if it's only one other person. I thought those kid's shows where everybody got along idealistically did more harm than good because it gave people false hope or something. Better to realize everybody sucks and be pleasantly surprised than to go in hoping to be treated well and then be inevitably disappointed.

I don't care to classify this as Fe vs Fi btw. Fuck socionics. :lol:

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Originally Posted by Cuivienen

Go live like a bear in the woods - wild, untamed and free.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/8gZp_yZ3aog/maxresdefault.jpg

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I forgot, who are you?

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Originally Posted by at sirac son of sirac

I forgot, who are you?

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Excellent. I prefer to remain anonymous.

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Originally Posted by Cuivienen

Excellent. I prefer to remain anonymous.

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Oh I remember you now, you're the person who keeps trying to hit on everyone online (or offline, i don't remember, maybe never knew). Have a good day. But, alas, you go on ignore :)

(Sometimes I remember to take people off, anyway, do whatever it was, etc snooze :sleep:)

Edit: I've 'unfriended' you too, for what it's worth, haha.

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Originally Posted by at sirac son of sirac

Oh I remember you now, you're the person who keeps trying to hit on everyone online (or offline, i don't remember, maybe never knew). Have a good day. But, alas, you go on ignore :)

(Sometimes I remember to take people off, anyway, do whatever it was, etc snooze :sleep:)

Edit: I've 'unfriended' you too, for what it's worth. heh.

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Cya later.

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Originally Posted by wasp

but isn't delta by definition the quadra which pulls itself away from the hustle and bustle of society? like dolphin's article on quadra progression where she uses the metaphor of the abyss to explain how beta mingles within the abyss near its very depths while delta stands atop the abyss looking down below

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I reread this whole post carefully, twice, because it's very helpful thinking for me right now. My son's girlfriend is here visiting and I really think she is IEI, but I don't have a great deal to go on, as she is quiet, and it's taking time to get to know her. Actually, I think she has to be INFp or INFj. (I wish I knew best how to make her comfortable, as I think she is afraid of disapproval). The two first met at a big college social type event, so that fits for Beta, from what you say. Anyway I am wondering about the above point you made, wasp, wondering if i know exactly what you are saying. Those two Betas are watching a series they had previously started watching together, which my son, who he knows what I don't like, said I wouldn't like. So I have been absent for that show, in another room with shut door, as I have a lot of take-home worknow. I prefer "good and true and beautiful" as my theme for shows, and when we go to the far-opposite of that, I do get actually upset. (And their show is described as a "black comedy" so that alone does not appeal). I am aware that my sensibilities are not Beta sensibilities, and I do not want to impose my values and preferences unnecessarily, and I especially do not want to be judgmental of a Beta's natural choices, so giving it berth seems a right. I want to give them space to be themselves.

So, wasp, would you describe that example I just gave as me being on top of an abyss looking down, while they are in the depths of it?

BTW, yes, that is how I am in social settings - content with the social energy and not trying to influence it, except in the rare occasions it's down or sad, and even then, I try to notice/influence individuals, vs. the group.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpEvLwOzhfI

I would rather be alone than with people I don't like, but I'd rather be with people I like if I have the choice, as long as I'm not with them 24 hours a day. I need lots of me time. Currently I'm living with roommates which I don't mind as long as everyone is employed and leaves the house for at least a few hours a day. I don't feel like I can do anything when other people are in the house. But when I was younger I used to fantasize about living with all my friends and doing everything together like grocery shopping, etc. I would still like to do that sometimes, but I've also seen how it can go horribly wrong to live with your friends.

Sometimes I wish I could live alone, but in reality I just want my own space. I get way too bored being by myself day after day. Once my fiancee at the time went out of town for a few weeks and I was really excited at first but I was bored out of my mind within about three days.

My dad is SLI-Te as well as E5 sp/sx and you would think he would be happier alone, but when he and my mom split up he immediately got remarried and acquired a new stepchild who he's been more of a father to than he ever was to me tbh. (I'm not bitter about it besides the fact that he taught her to parallel park and not me XD. He taught me to drive stick though so that's something. I just take it to mean he's grown as a person.) He freaked out being alone. He is kind of like me. Needs his own space and lots of alone time, but at the end of the day he wants the security of knowing he's not actually alone. So basically he spends most of the day in his office/garage but likes to eat dinner as a family and go on family vacations occasionally, watch movies together, etc. Idk if that is pretty common among lots of people or if it is more Delta. I believe I'm an extravert and I feel very similar. Only difference is I also like to party every so often.

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Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason

I reread this whole post carefully, twice, because it's very helpful thinking for me right now. My son's girlfriend is here visiting and I really think she is IEI, but I don't have a great deal to go on, as she is quiet, and it's taking time to get to know her. Actually, I think she has to be INFp or INFj. (I wish I knew best how to make her comfortable, as I think she is afraid of disapproval). The two first met at a big college social type event, so that fits for Beta, from what you say. Anyway I am wondering about the above point you made, wasp, wondering if i know exactly what you are saying. Those two Betas are watching a series they had previously started watching together, which my son, who he knows what I don't like, said I wouldn't like. So I have been absent for that show, in another room with shut door, as I have a lot of take-home worknow. I prefer "good and true and beautiful" as my theme for shows, and when we go to the far-opposite of that, I do get actually upset. (And their show is described as a "black comedy" so that alone does not appeal). I am aware that my sensibilities are not Beta sensibilities, and I do not want to impose my values and preferences unnecessarily, and I especially do not want to be judgmental of a Beta's natural choices, so giving it berth seems a right. I want to give them space to be themselves.

So, wasp, would you describe that example I just gave as me being on top of an abyss looking down, while they are in the depths of it?

BTW, yes, that is how I am in social settings - content with the social energy and not trying to influence it, except in the rare occasions it's down or sad, and even then, I try to notice/influence individuals, vs. the group.

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You sound like my mom a bit who I'm 90% sure is SEE (besides not wanting to impose your values. She will do that.). She hates negative shows quite passionately and enjoys programs that I find quite boring. I usually prefer upbeat, light comedies myself but I also enjoy dark humor if it's done right. Maybe it's a generational thing or something about religion. She tends to think the devil is involved in a lot of stuff haha. Not saying you don't sound like IEE at all, I would actually think your feelings make more sense for us than mine do. Though I also don't usually enjoy violence or anything too mean spirited unless it is very satirical. My sister's husband is IEI and she thinks he is a very negative person and she would be horrified by most of the television/music he consumes.

I'm curious to know if you know what show it is they're watching that you would dislike so much and also what type your son is.

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Originally Posted by schwiftyrickty

You sound like my mom a bit who I'm 90% sure is SEE (besides not wanting to impose your values. She will do that.). She hates negative shows quite passionately and enjoys programs that I find quite boring. I usually prefer upbeat, light comedies myself but I also enjoy dark humor if it's done right. Maybe it's a generational thing or something about religion. She tends to think the devil is involved in a lot of stuff haha. Not saying you don't sound like IEE at all, I would actually think your feelings make more sense for us than mine do. Though I also don't usually enjoy violence or anything too mean spirited unless it is very satirical. My sister's husband is IEI and she thinks he is a very negative person and she would be horrified by most of the television/music he consumes.

I'm curious to know if you know what show it is they're watching that you would dislike so much and also what type your son is.

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I can't remember the show but if I do I will tell you. I just have had very little time for TV watching at all in recent months and when I do I want it to be something relaxing and not too stimulating at this time. I like things that are true, right and/or beautiful best and dark humor doesn't usually make that cut. Yes, SEEs do not mind one bit imposing their opinion; that is something I have had to get used to with the SEEs in my life. I do admire straightforwardness, though. I have opinions but I often do not state them particularly when I want to keep the conversation pleasant, which is usually! As to SEE movies, I had a SEE acquaintance who used to take care of my Mom when I was at work and I can't tell you how many times I came home and she was watching"How to Marry a Millionaire". She liked that and other cheesy vintage musicals. The other SEE in my life is early 30s and she also like musicals, though not so much the vintage ones. She likes scary creepy things, too, and I absolutely do not like the fright movies genre. With this SEE, theology is something I do not discuss, we would frustrate each other way to much. (She will misunderstand what I said, and I find that it is impossible to correct her interpretation of what I said once she interpreted it that way. It really focuses on our N/S difference for some reason).

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Originally Posted by Tigerfadder

I think by being by self one can hook out the influences of others and find out their own values and who they are. When there is always people around influencing you and your thoughts you will always be interfered. Some people get more influenced than others and I think those who merge most with others and so their own self be gone can benefit of solitude.

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<3

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Originally Posted by Rebelondeck

ESIs seem to want space (autonomy) but also to never feel alone

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Called out...

--ESI adjusting to living alone, e4w5, sx-first, so-last, :p

I prefer having people at a certain distance from me, where I can peer into their minds by means of intuitive inference without them doing the same to me


complete absense of people, on the other hand, feels stifling, though less bad than being forced to directly interact.