Any links, articles and observations would be very much appreciated
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Any links, articles and observations would be very much appreciated
They think like other subtypes but from bit different angle like all the other subtypes. They get satisfaction through creation.
In case of EII I'd say something like J.K. Rowling and more "introverted" than dominant type. Some sort of seclusion, maybe. It is nothing earth shattering when it comes to subtypes while they may look different. Inclinations differ.
They still have same weaknesses.
How come you think that you are EII-C?
Gordon Ramsay C-LSI
Charles Manson C-EIE
Carl Jung C-LII
Björk C-SEI
Roman Polanski C-IEI
Tove Jansson C-EII video
Russell Brand C-ILE
Woody Allen C-ILI
Quentin Tarantino C-LIE
Tim Treadwell C-SEE
If you want to know about C-EII you should search among writers.
Swedish writer carina rydberg
https://youtu.be/VoOx2URWQSA
I KNOW I'm C-EII, I just want more information because I've exhausted the links I can access on the creative subtype. Thanks, I'll look into J.K Rowling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007
Theres not that much information. Just reality. I enjoy subtyping people and observing the dichotomies. DCNH is the first thing i notice. Observing couples is also fun.
C is probably the rarest subtype. Maybe 5%-10% something like that.
What would you say the rough percentages are for the other subtypes?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallmo
Also interesting observations you've found for the different subtypes of LII? I'm still trying to determine mine for sure.
Hint: Give link to one of your videos.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Exception
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007
Are you one of Sol's minions? XD
I can just throw out some numbers based on feeling:Quote:
Originally Posted by The Exception
Dominant 40%
Normalizing 50%
Creative 5%
Harmonizing 5%
Or maybe:
D 40
N 40
C 5
H 15
??
Just based on impressions of random groups of people.
I should have some examples of LII subtypes. I'll get back to you later. It's better to link video, I am not that good at writing about them.
Hi, I recently figured out DCNH IRL and it definitely works, and yes I observed this in many couples too. I also figured out I am definitely ignoring and pretty oblivious to my surrounding and actually a C-sub IEI. BUT according to DarkAngelFireWolf69 himself or at least a transcript of a recent video chat with him, he claimed D to be the rarest subtype. Yes I believe there are many, many N's out there.. but I also met quite a few H subs (I figured out most people I keep close are actually H subs, since they are the most capeable of tolerating me). This might be to me studying something in the creative fields, thus I am surrounded with C and H subs. I also mostly met male C-subs, and was kinda happy to see other a bit socially retarded people like me, haha. It's like we disturb the group harmony easily and cannot surpress our own needs. And kind of do things that shock other people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallmo
I've always been a difficult person, get into lots of fights, even kinda reckless for an IEI and I am ultra oblivious towards other people's feelings. I am defnitely a perceiver.. but I look like an ambivert since I've got a secondary Ep temperament.
I noticed many people think I am an extravert at first (and I am definitely not as shy as most double introverted IEIs on the forum), but social interaction is extreely draining to me which shows in me needing lots of alone time to recharge. I only now noticed how I've been drawn to creating since I've been a small child.. also everything I do has my personal twist to it.
Do H-subs often imitate?
I found these two transcripts very helpful for anyone beign interested:
https://www.reddit.com/r/JungianTypo...12_transcript/
https://www.reddit.com/r/JungianTypo...14_transcript/
Other potential C-sub IEIs: Amandla Stenberg, Ellie Goulding, Devon Aoki (they, just like me, first seem more like extraverts/ not the stereotypical ultra-shy IEI).
Apparently DarkAngelFireWolf69 claims, that Ds are the rarest, because as leader you can easily be assasinated.. maybe it is the same for C-subs -> the more you stand out the easier you are as a target. (I always joked that I would have been the first to be burned as a witch in the Middle Ages, since I have such a hard time adapting to social norms.. and most of my friends agree, ahah)
Another was to figure out your subtype: what kind of dual subytpe have you been attracted to most of your life/ which dual DCNH subtype has been attracted to you? Clear answer for me: male H-subs (though I mostly meet female H-subs, who become my friends lel)
DCNH also showed me why I am more 'creative' in the use of Ne than some Ne egos I meet. C-subs apparently are the most right-brained / creative.. N sub the most left-brained according to DarkAngelFireWolf69 (I hope I got it the right way round with the brain sites, it's in one of the links above). Even duals who are C and N have difficulties getting along accoridng to DarkAngelFireWolf69.
I've got an N-IEI friend and we clash with the outer temperaments, I also noticed that as an N she always needs social guidance/ can't do anything alone, very unindependent compared to me as a C for example (all in the boundaries of being IEI after all, haha). Since she is ignoring like me, she is also socially retarded / oblivious as me, but to a lesser extent than I am, since she is much shier and evades fights etc. (probably the distancing thing).
I am definitely contacting, since I sometimes even obliviously move towards bad/ dangerous situations.
Then I met a few H-sub IEIs and omg we are the same type and get along well, but they are so much more aware than I am, very helpful and compromising and kind/ socially graceful. I didn't know an identical could be so different (yet in a way I really, really like). They notice much more and like all H-subs they can easily communicate what I actually mean and which offends most people easily.
what I got from this
m e a n g r a n d m aQuote:
DarkAngelFireWolf69 types Hillary Clinton as ESTP.
I'm glad to hear that. It was really a big thing for me figuring this out IRL and seeing how beautifully it works.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaviTilki
That's interesting. It would be nice to get it confirmed somehow. My numbers might be biased because of the environment I usually am in.Quote:
according to DarkAngelFireWolf69 himself or at least a transcript of a recent video chat with him, he claimed D to be the rarest subtype.
All subtypes are of course common. Even if C was as low as 5% it is still 1/20, so you meet them alot.Quote:
Yes I believe there are many, many N's out there.. but I also met quite a few H subs
But yes, I believe N is the most common.
My uncle is C-LSE. He was interested in different vehicles so he bought and old army terrain vehicle and went to the beach and drove it in the sand. Maybe he thought it would be cool. Then the police came and got him.Quote:
And kind of do things that shock other people.
I am not sure. Maybe? They are sensitive to the environment.Quote:
Do H-subs often imitate?
Cool. It sounds familiar.Quote:
This is DarkAngelFireWolf69's IEI-C subtype description translated by Persephone (all credits to her), which is totally me:
I think society is dependent on there being lots of N and D to keep things rolling. If there were lots of Cs it could be a threat to civilization.Quote:
Apparently DarkAngelFireWolf69 claims, that Ds are the rarest, because as leader you can easily be assasinated.. maybe it is the same for C-subs -> the more you stand out the easier you are as a target.
But many Ds are not obvious leaders either. They simply have the dichotomies for D, but can be quite unassuming despite of that. But if they strengthen the D functions more, they can be leaders.
Yes, that's a big part of it. The attraction can be very strong, especially if you get a match on 8 subtype level. So for example Ne-C + Si-H.Quote:
Another was to figure out your subtype: what kind of dual subytpe have you been attracted to most of your life/ which dual DCNH subtype has been attracted to you? Clear answer for me: male H-subs (though I mostly meet female H-subs, who become my friends lel)
I think Ns can actually run the risk of falling out of society if they are not a part of an organization or have a stable network around them. Its kindof a paradox, but they are either very much in the normal realm, or they drop out of it.Quote:
I also noticed that as an N she always needs social guidance/ can't do anything alone, very unindependent compared to me as a C
Yes, VERY different. It's almost like "another type". But to me DCNH kindof proves what sociotype really is. It is a more inner and more rigid structure than DCNH.Quote:
I didn't know an identical could be so different (yet in a way I really, really like).
Hmm.. as a super strange character according to many I think I could be C. Well, I find normal people kind of boring.
I see normal people:
***runs away**
Although with normal people I kind of see my responsibility to bring some life if I do not automatically see how it fails. Then comes adaptation and/or withdrawal.
C poster
https://i.imgur.com/Ja2mcqG.jpg
D poster
https://i.imgur.com/XxAnbFM.jpg
H poster
https://i.imgur.com/CMu03pS.jpg
N poster
https://i.imgur.com/5yrxbgJ.jpg
Yeah but DarkAngelFireWolf69 changed his perception of the functions in a recent video to this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallmo
- Creative Subype : Ne and Fe. Additional : Se.
- Normalising Subtype : Ti and Si. Additional : Fi.
- Harmonising Subtype : Ni and Fi. Additional : Si.
- Dominant Subtype : Te and Se. Additional : Fe (not simply a leader but a charismatic leader). Practical Leadership—most important focus (since different types of leadership : Emotional Leadership. Here, the Dominant subtype has real authority and can direct people in a complicated situation).
..so oddly the functions of the matching pairs are not completely complementary.
I feel C-subs are actually there for cultural change, to break free from the old system? At least helping with societal shifts.. I've always loved to do that (shocking people, behaving in a way they didn't expect or spreading thoughts and ideas that completely change their perception and helping humanity to survive.. since unusual ideas are needes for society to evolve, I believe C and H are often found in entrepreneurship). One reason why I am so/sx in the Enneagram, but somehow don't relate to the normalty of synflow that is usually described (I've also met tons of ultra boring and bland 'contraflows') so yeah I think enneagram sometimes overlaps with DCNH but isn't taken to be so seriously with the syn- and contraflow. It's just a set of priorities (which can differ in strength from individual to individual), though I believe in the 9 types to a degree. The description of a so/sx 4 sounds somewhat familiar to the C-sub IEI.
Another thought I had: I never related to being a complete side-kick IEI like in the Model A description. The description sounds more like a C-sub SLE paired with an H-sub IEI, whispering him things in a way he wants to hear (H-subs are naturally smart with people, like I find them extremely cunning in a way). While I as a C-sub IEI can almost obliviously say thing like a Fi-POLR and offend people (even though I do have demonstrative Fi). My SLE H-sub friend was by far smarter with people and how to say things and actually never really offended people (her Fi-POLR showed more on a very close distance). Her SLE-C sub boyfriend though was just like me a complete retard, waltzing over people's feelings and being more of a diva. I also personally like being admired like most C-subs and not just give admiration to someone else.. which further indicates I am not one of the introverted subtypes and why there are people out there who aren't obvious IEIs, SLEs etc. And why Model A fails with the description, since being so smart with people is not necessarily an IEI thing/ Ni-Fe related thing. I use mine differently. My H-sub IEI friend is more like that, being capeable of making someone feel so good about themselves. I'm not that much of a comforting person. I'm a real maverick, and that finally explained to me why I don't relate to the extremely soothing personality an IEI is made out to be in Model A.
I also don't relate to Michael Jackson (who is IEI so/sx 4w3 like me) that much, because he is an H sub and so much softer than I am. I relate much more to the people I mentioned before.
DarkAngelFireWolf69 also claimed N subs are almost never drawn to his teachings but mostly C-subs are, but then again you are an N sub and like his discoveries.. and since he is still changing his perception about certain things, he might even change his mind again.
@Tallmo a fictional C-sub and H-sub couple: Katniss Everdeen as a female C-sub and Peeta Mellark as a male H-sub from the Hunger Games.. she spread the thought of rebellion and was very oblivious towards people/ just doing her own thing. She also never listened and was quite a maverick. Peeta was more of a charmer, knowing what people want, more conforming and soothing (she described him as sunlight which she needs... since she just like her other childhood friend is rather destructive fire). This sounds dramatic, but I recognised a potential C-H dynamic here.
Interesting. I think I liked it better the old way. I'm wondering what might be the reason for this? I've met Creatives who seem more Se than Fe to be honest. Or Normalizers who seem "very Fi". I have to think about this.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaviTilki
But wouldn't this also change the dichotomies. terminating/initiating for example? Or they become impossible?
But it's easy to agree for example that harmonizers have some kind of Fi. But sometimes I'm wondering, is it really Fi or is it simply a product of them being attached to the environment. Si has in itself a "numinous" component, that attracts.
One thing I've noticed about myself is that when I was younger I was much more Fi-N and less Ti. And Nowadays my subtype is "conscious" so I am not identified with it as much. I know that I'm "normalizing" and that I have other options. My awareness of Si has also increased.
Yes, definitely. They are the bringer of the new, and destroyers of the old. But for stability of culture we need other subtypes. Like we need people who also just do things the "normal" way, and by that uphold the current state and can transmit it to following generations.Quote:
I feel C-subs are actually there for cultural change, to break free from the old system? At least helping with societal shifts..
I don't really care much about the descriptions of main types anymore. I haven't read them for years. I think they work as pointers to some stereotypical behaviour, and then one has to figure out what the type REALLY is on your own with lots of examples of real people.Quote:
Another thought I had: I never related to being a complete side-kick IEI like in the Model A description. The description sounds more like a C-sub SLE paired with an H-sub IEI, whispering him things in a way he wants to hear (H-subs are naturally smart with people, like I find them extremely cunning in a way). While I as a C-sub IEI can almost obliviously say thing like a Fi-POLR and offend people (even though I do have demonstrative Fi). My SLE H-sub friend was by far smarter with people and how to say things and actually never really offended people (her Fi-POLR showed more on a very close distance). Her SLE-C sub boyfriend though was just like me a completely retard, waltzing over people's feelings and being more of a diva. I also personally like being admired like most C-subs and not just give admiration to someone else.. which further indicates I am not one of the introverted subtypes and why there are people out there who aren't obvious IEIs, SLEs etc. And why Model A fails with the description, since being so smart with people is not necessarily an IEI thing/ Ni-Fe related thing. I use mine differently. My H-sub IEI friend is more like that, being capeable of making someone feel so good about themselves. I'm not that much of a comforting person. I'm a real maverick, and that finally explained to me why I don't relate to the extremely soothing personality an IEI is made out to be in Model A.
Last time I checked I had him as H-ESI. I might change my mind if I watch him again. But yes, an obvious harmonizer.Quote:
I also don't relate to Michael Jackson (who is IEI so/sx 4w3 like me) that much, because he is an H sub and so much softer than I am. I relate much more to the people I mentioned before.
He could very well be right about that. It's not easy to find other SEIs either who are into socionics. I learn things by watching people over a long time, and making lots of mistakes. I can't learn from listening to just theory. I have a combination of many interests that has drawn me into this.Quote:
DarkAngelFireWolf69 also claimed N subs are almost never drawn to his teachings but mostly C-subs are, but then again you are an N sub and like his discoveries.. and since he is still changing his perception about certain things, he might even change his mind again.
Socionics is a very basic - generalized theory attempting to describe 7 billion people by way of only 16 types. Adding on a further typology to try to explain the 'differences' within those people - that's adding on DNCH is an exercise in futility.
There are still 7 billion people with their individual characteristics. No matter what typology you add on to that - in this case another 4 options, you are still no where near explaining the individuality of the person within one of those 16 types of 7 billion people.
So there's no point in even bothering with it - it's a bad deal.
I don't really think IE's should be included in DCNH.
Manifestation of DCNH types in terms of IE's is just descriptive layer.
OTOH it brings more realistic imbalance compared to two subtype system.
You're missing the point. This is not about capturing the whole individuality. Both socionics and DCNH describe things that are both very pronounced/important in the individual and systematic. It's not just any typology. They are very relevant for understanding compatibility/communication. And because they are systematic phenomena they are easy to describe in a theory and use and also observe. That's the reason why DCNH and Socionics was discovered.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarper
Just because you can't capture the individuality of all humans, doesn't mean that you shouldn't pick out some important patterns and describe them.
My opinions different from you. A psychological type captures some vague information about someone, but inter-type relations don't exist the way socionics expects.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallmo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarper
If you believe that, then why are you here? I'm genuinely curious. I'm not trying to shoo you away. What is your attraction to such a forum and theory? There must be something you're getting out of hanging out here and commenting or something that you hope to find but are struggling with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarper
I have been asking myself the same question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Audacious
My opinion on intertype-relationships relations is that it's deeply flawed. I don't believe God made it that people could not get on (opposing quadra, conflictor relations).
I think a type itself, without the baggage, has some element to it, as in functions as a particular set of preferences, so I talk about that, otherwise... IDK.
Maybe I'll fully leave when I've decided on that.
I agree completely with Scarper. DCNH is a useless theory which makes a new member:
- more confused
- more likely to mistype
- waste time
- water down their understanding of intertype relationships
furthermore:
- people show completely different DCNH behaviors in different settings
- there is no additional "development" for someone when he-she knows his-her DCNH subtype
DarkAngelFireWolf69 really hit the wrong spot with this one.
OP, sorry for the derail.
It makes sense that it bothers you. For me, being told that "there's only one way, the rest will never work" can feel so strange and limiting. It makes me want to move away from the source of such information. I think that's a very dysfunctional perspective. I once dropped a college class midway because a professor said that we'd all amount to nothing more than what our parents did. She was adamant about this belief. I knew better, but I was depressed at the time, and I didn't want to accidentally acquire her limiting perspective by hanging around.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarper
A person discovering Socionics in this era is sort of like a person learning 100+ years ago that the Classification of Living Things categorizes different species of organisms. At first, it's interesting. Then, you wonder, but what about the differences within those categories? This theory is incomplete! There's so much it doesn't explain. We're not all the same. It claims this, but what about the times where it doesn't work that way? It also doesn't explain why one family has the same illness over generations while another has an extreme ability for sports, all in the same category and geographic area. Why is someone more prone to cancer than another? Then, annoyance sets in. So, at that point, you have a few choices including:
1) I will quit because this is shit.
2) I will be happy with it as is, because it helps me enough to make my life better.
3) I will complain or wait patiently until someone develops a more thorough concept... which they better, because it's necessary.
4) I'm too annoyed or too curious to wait. I'll think about this problem instead. Maybe I'll arrive at a solution.
Ultimately, someone comes around and discovers something like DNA. Then eventually, people start mapping out that system. At some point, that's done. Then, interpretation is necessary. What does that data mean? What can be done with it? What is the best way to use it? That's a long process.
We don't have that done for personalities yet. Maybe we will one day. It will help explain why billions of people end up so different. What are contributing factors? How cool would it be to be able to predict that. But, until then, maybe it will help to think of Socionics as something that's not yet there. It's trying, but won't arrive at the level of depth you're looking for yet. It will be clumsy along the way. Some things it will get correct, others will not make complete sense. Or it will appear to make sense of the surface, but won't withstand all angles of testing. That's not the point where the theory (or its followers) should quit. That's where the potential for growth and exploration lies.
That's my first point.
Second point: I get along with my conflictors, supervisors/revisees, and members of various quadras. I have been close to them, had fun with them and learned so much from them. I won't however be spotted marrying them! Even without socionics, my instincts said that those types were not meant to be my forever partner. Does that make their contribution to my life any less wonderful? No. They have changed me for the better, and hopefully, I have helped them that way too. Maybe your experiences have been the same.
What socionics says about intertype relations, which you are more than welcome to continue ignoring, is that there are patterns. You can use these patterns to help you find a suitable partner or to figure out what someone else's needs are. The more specific a pattern you find suitable for you, the more you can use it to your advantage. That's why subtype compatibility helps me. I find many ESEs emotionally exhausting, but compatible subtype ESEs and I get along well because their personality hits the right spots in me and my personality hits the right spots in them. For example, N-Si-ESEs sort of do this meek emotional display thing that really appeals to me. It makes me (D type) want to take over and control the situation. ESE-Fe-C are more emotionally hyper than I can possibly handle. I become lost in controlling their emotion rather than the situation. I see them as chaotic. Knowing this and experiencing this has freed me to focus only on compatible ESEs for romances (and maybe some LSEs or SEIs, if they come into my life).
If you (SLI) are working with a LII benefactor coworker, you know that they'll probably appeal to you in the beginning, but that problems may inevitably arise. Being conscious of this will help you not give too much, to ask for more of what you want, to not let it turn into a one way street. You can still have a good time working together as long as you're aware of what issues may arise. If you're able to work around the pattern and have mastered some unique technique of perfect harmony and compatibility, then good for you! Don't feel limited by the theory. Use any theory only where it helps you and disregard the rest. That's what I do.
Due to changes in computing and therefore lesser requirements in man powered bureaucracy N types will become more and more outcast over time.
But C types... so if no niche is avail and no mediating types present then it would not look too bright for them either and eccentricity takes complete control while multitude of private project emerges. I for instance have very little patience following same standards as others or looking for control.
@Shaebette, sorry for the de-rail also. From what I know of you (the limited I've seen you), I don't think you'll mind that much - it's not a de-rail for any form of senseless arguing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Audacious
More or less yes to what you are saying. If it means anything - the ITR, it (to me) goes something like this.
Consider you had a dating matching profile (something like eHarmony, POF) etc, which involves asking you a whole heap of questions, and, based on those questions, it tries to pair you with likely matches, and sends those likely matches to you.
It's something like socionics - so someone, say SLI, given the typical nature of SLI, doesn't like to express too much energetic emotions, it's tiring, so would prefer the emotions to be that of interactions. Sure, that sort of idea. So yes, if it's like a vague match of two people, it can mean that. But there are as you say, a million+ variations of a person which involves attraction. So the part that socionics plays - can be very little, just like any other system, eHarmony etc can get it wrong.
It's not a 'new psychology' to me, or explains peoples preferred and expected interactions to any level of required reliability, so sometimes, it might work, but to expect more - would be like expecting a machine that can predict the lottery numbers or the future, too many variables.
So from that perspective, it's fine enough. BTW - if commonalities are an attraction, it may well be that identical types are better for relations that duals. Well, the theory says as far as i'm aware, that identicals will over time assume different roles, one assumes the E part, the other the I part, S, and F etc; the theory given it's construct would say identicals can dualize each other like this.
Socionics can explain that, and many more things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Audacious
In case of Harmonizing type if we can make parallels – the agreeable character (for example) according to Jordan Peterson is the most vulnerable to alienation.
I wonder how it starts to behave in environment if competition is required.
Dominant type. I think their need of control might alienate them from stabilized institutions if they can not get to top – entrepreneurship may save them.
As I wrote before
Creative and their eccentric ways can be alienating as well.
Normalizing may suffer from instability.
But still... there are so many professions where Normalizing is needed. Any office work, analysis, engineering, science, doctors, taxi drivers, pilots, industry workers, construction etc. Basically any work except art or work were you have to have very good people skills like sales and TV host etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007
Yeah Cs are difficult. They can be really successful or they are living in the streets. I think many of the alcoholics I see in the streets are Creatives.Quote:
But C types... so if no niche is avail and no mediating types present then it would not look too bright for them either and eccentricity takes complete control while multitude of private project emerges. I for instance have very little patience following same standards as others or looking for control.
But I was working in the post office last year sorting mail. Most people there were Normalizers. But one woman was C-LSE. Very enthusiastic. She was super fast sorting the mail, talking and shouting all the time to her co-workers and really creating a spontaneous atmosphere. But she had the right main type for the work also.
Yeah many harmonizers seem too introverted and mysterious. Like they are living in their own inner world. But some are social and lively, those are the once who are well-adapted and really showing their harmonizing skills to the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007
They can be good at adapting and charming the right people. One H-SEI whom I know said that once in a job interview she made the interviewer cry when she talked about some sensations in a beautiful way. And of course she got the job.Quote:
I wonder how it starts to behave in environment if competition is required.
So you are C subtype? I agree you seem more C than H. I once dated an H-ILE and she was so nice and pleasant and cute that she seemed totally like a stereotypical Feeler on the surface.
I have sat on table with ILE-N and ILE-H some time ago. It was pretty clear that I could talk very weird stuff with that H type while the N type got soon bit unsettled over indirect references etc.
:shrug:
I do it all the time.
Yeah H likes it when people are random and have unusual ideas. I've seen it many times. They can even like weird and dangerous people. They get energy from them. But they have the ability to deal with them also, and influence the C in a smooth way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007
I remember on the train I saw some cute young H girls, and some half-criminal crazy C guys who sat down next to them. The guys of course started talking and challenging the girls, but they didn't seem to have any problem with it.
I'm working with an N-ILE now. He is good at problem solving and can present possibilities to me. But he is also a little boring and business-like. Doesn't like unusual ideas. Quite strong on Se-Role also.
Creative supposedly have great sensitivity towards external atmosphere.
I can say that I totally collide with certain kind of ESI's but it is more or less OK with others.
I witnessed it when ESI [extremely unhealthy version] had control over everything and I just had to follow it. Others started ask why I started to look extremely nauseous...
Creative subtypes are said to have strengthened Ne, Fe and Se. Here's what I don't understand: I'm EII-C subtype, right? However, I tend to live in the moment and do things the moment I think of them, or the way I feel like doing them. I'm a bit hedonistic, more than an EII would be. Is this because of strengthened Se, but within the dimensions of my Se polr? I read something like that somewhere, but I don't know what it means.
Tbh if thats u in the picture u kinda look SEEQuote:
Originally Posted by Shaebette
I think: When it comes to DCNH never use functions to figure yourself out. Bad practice. Just think what those terms mean and what is your role within in your own type not the other way around.
Roughly:
Dominant: You are some sort of leader and driven (being a leader can mean lots of things in case of EII it would be ethical leader)
Creative: You conduct yourself bit out of the norm. You look for new things (lots of variety in there).
Normalizing: you appreciate the system and you function reliably in that context. You don't deviate that much. Respect other's achieved authority in that area...
Harmonizing: You have cooling effect to people and tend to function well among them. Or something. You also appreciate novel things from others.
I'm def EII but I think being Sx/sp and 4w3 play a lot into it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Number 9 large
Well i think hedonism, not liking estjs and living in the moment are rather contrary to EII
https://socioniks.net/article/?id=37
:shifty:Quote:
Creative subtype
The main characteristic of a creative person is paradoxical thinking and non-standard behavior, which allows solving problems of special complexity that are unaffordable to the usual, previously triggered techniques.
The main secret of creative energy is inner concentration to such an extent that the external situation is completely ignored.
I want to recall in this connection an episode from ancient history about Archimedes, who drew geometric figures on the sand, ignoring the Roman soldiers who broke into his home town of Syracuse at that moment.
This state of internal compression and painful fights accompanying the psychological "birth" of a new idea is rather painful. In this state, you do not want to eat or drink, the world loses its colors and temptations, you just want to push it out more quickly, which turns inside.
However, in the formula of creativity, it is also necessary to include the function E, with the help of which the generated idea is presented to the public in a catchy, memorable form. Archimedes, as you remember, shouted "eureka!". It is difficult to deny the special magnetism and manic nature inherent in creative.
So we get the formula IFE. However, one should not confuse creative inspiration with the emotional pressure of the dominant personality, which uses this tool much more efficiently and far surpasses the creative influence of people on the psyche of people.
The inevitable continuation of the merits of the creative are its shortcomings, which are very annoying to those who are close. First of all, we are talking about uneven working capacity and extreme individualism. Periods of inspiration alternate with stagnation, and even depressions. Individualism stems from an unwillingness to reckon with the norms accepted in the collective. The chief of the creative is forced to indulge him, otherwise he risks losing his talented unique (remember the series about Dr. House).
The creative subtype of a particular person, of course, can be combined with additional accentuations (and any). For example, Leo Tolstoy, although he was creative (I function was supported by F), but at the same time he was obsessed with non-resistance to evil by violence, which indicates the accentuation of the + R function. A similar combination of functions, in which one function reduces the other, takes a lot of energy from a person.
I'd consider IEI for you tbhQuote:
Originally Posted by Shaebette
so I take this to mean the Fe in C type is more inconsistent outbursts of what is probably perceived mainly as eccentricity (but probably relates to base type--logical Cs are probably more "eccentric" with ethical Cs being more traditionally impactful yet nevertheless bursty), whereas dominance is more level but intensified emotional pressure, likewise subject to base typeQuote:
Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007
This should go in the Viewpoints forum.
you know that doesn't make any sense, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaebette
this would be like a fish saying "now I may not have wings like a bird, and I may not know how to fly, I live in the ocean so if I were to even attempt to fly, then I'd most likely die, but I still identify as a bird because, if you tilt your head sideways and squint your eyes, then my fins look like tiny wings."
but i'm pretty sure Si = living in the moment
Why?Quote:
Originally Posted by Myst
You do the Fe thing with wanting to make your image look different than what you really are like, to attract the guy you are into (I remember you had a thread on it). Your avatars (they are photos of you, yeah?) look Se valuing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaebette
You are so NormalizingQuote:
Originally Posted by thehotelambush
Since your location is Sweden: I suspect that the king of Sweden is a C subtype who has become Normalizing during his career. Nowadays he seems Normalizing, even though it doesn't really fit him either, something is off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Viktor
But in old videos he seems very C. And he also married a Harmonizer.
"Den motvillige monarken". Something to think about.
This is spot on. THANK you for acknowledging the delta NF-ness in my style :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Viktor
Why?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallmo
The avatars stuff is just heuristics, sure. (My EII sister btw would never dye her hair blue tho' lol. She dresses very modestly.) Unique self-expression isn't very delta tho' either. Maybe enneagram. However, that thread of hers is really Fe valuing. I've seen other IEI have the same Fe approach too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Viktor
What thread? Because if it's the LSI one, why wouldn't you term it as a 3-wing one instead, in terms of trying to adapt to a selected person's expectations to make one seem more favorable in the eyes of the person they're trying to attract? Maybe you're trying to see what you want to see? Just a suggestion hehe. Don't take it too seriously, all I'm saying is maybe try to put yourself in my enneatype(and wing)'s shoes, especially after I've said I'm completely sure about my sociotype.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myst
It's the LSI one, yes. I don't know what you mean by "3-wing". The bolded is what I saw as Fe>Fi.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaebette
Well, I don't know how else I can convince you I'm Fi-dominant and you can't take my word for it so :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Myst
I agree but IEI is not the type I would consider.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myst
What type is it?Quote:
Originally Posted by thehotelambush
Okay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaebette
It is hard to say whether she is EII or IEE or maybe even IEI. Based on this. It is true that some EII's might want to look bit eccentric. I'm not sure if that is creative sub type or harmonizing as it means less clear PoLR.
It was just funny how you mentioned off-topic formalities in this thread about C subtype. It's a big contrast.Quote:
Originally Posted by thehotelambush
I remember seeing a video of you and you seemed N so that came to mind also.
No hard feelings though, right? :D it's just typing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myst
I didn't try to indicate anything like that, no worries.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaebette
I was thinking more in the EIE/SEE/ESE range. Too much Se.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myst
Oh, ESE is an interesting idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by thehotelambush
What shows you I have too much Se though? I think my "living in the moment" is more Ne in terms of acting on my ideas.Quote:
Originally Posted by thehotelambush
Really I should say too much Se and Fe. You had another thread where you told us about something that happened in your life. You said that you were always the one in your friend group who has to take the initiative to go out and get people together to do fun stuff ("making people experience good things"), and that people weren't more responsive to your efforts. This generally speaks of high Fe and Se, and probably Fe leading. It didn't seem to have anything to do with "ideas".Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaebette
Also I think an EII wouldn't be comfortable putting themselves on display like that.
Living in the moment seems sensing to me,Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaebette
:Ne: I'd describe as "generating ideas in the moment". If you focus on "what is", the present reality it's sensing, if you focus on "ideas in which ways the present reality could be different" that's :Ne:.
the entire shaebette situation is some textbook combination of sensing extroversion and ethics inadvertently isolating themselves from corrective information because it passively sends off big warning signs saying don't bother
like it should be in the books as a case study its so perfect
It's with literally the same group of people, and my SO. People I have already bonded closely with. EIIs use Fe AFTER their Fi needs have been met right? Fe is still 3D.Quote:
Originally Posted by thehotelambush
It's true though, I'm the one who's always thinking of and searching the internet for new fun places to go and then trying to make it work. I get impatient when I have an idea to do something or go to a new place so I prefer to do it immediately. This happens all the time and this is why my friends and/or SO are reluctant sometimes, im kind of forceful and impulsive with such plans.
What if you focus on ways the present reality could be different and act to alter it to the version you prefer? Ne-based,right?Quote:
Originally Posted by WinnieW
Well now you're making me seem like some hybrid sociospecies lol. Maybe it's the online-irl split that's causing all this mistype chaos. Maybe it's the way I portray myself via my words? I just know it's not as complicated as it looks,really.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bertrand
Probably best to list the reasons for typing as EII. Was it typing tests? Did someone type you that way? Are you an introvert? That kind of thing.
No. I mistyped as IEE via typing tests,then read through the EII function stack as well as all the other types. What was clear to me was that I valued Fi and Ne. I know too many IEEs to know I'm not Ne-dominant, and I'm super sure I'm Fi-dom. Se polr too. But i still didnt feel like the EII description fit me completely. Went ahead to enneatypes and quickly figured out my type and wing,as well as my instincts, and understood how it altered my sociotype. DCNH sealed it for me, with Creative subtypes seeming like their mirror outwardly. Im an extroverted introvert, that means I'm primarily an introvert. My enneagram combo make me want to stand out and be admired, but not too much, in an almost subtle way. I am driven by my desires but i am lazy as fuck as well. I am really disorganized and wish i could dance in front of people as I do in front of my mirror (Okay, got a bit distracted there hehe) i wish i were more talkative around people. I am sure about my typing and have spent almost too much time discovering myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by at sirac son of sirac
Thanks, that was interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaebette
It's difficult IMO to type as IEE but not be an extravert. IEE or EIE would be the types i'd consider. Using things like DCNH is for when you're sure about your type (even then not everyone has a DCNH type or has the need for one). Using it to find your type is a surefire way for confusion.
I notice you talk about enneagram too. That's fine but one should be careful of, actually one shouldn't use a different typology system as a way of explaining a type on an unrelated system, ie socionics.
Lazy, any type can be lazy :)
It was more straightforward for me. I had an ESTJ manager who went on an MBTI course. He came back and typed me ISTP from dichotomies. I sat tests and scored ISTP, and SLI, and things just made sense from that going forward.
DCNH came later. Way later. After I was sure about my type.Quote:
Originally Posted by at sirac son of sirac
Ooh, you're supposed to be my activator? :) My dad's SLI too.
The perception is :Ne:, yes, but acting to alter to the version you prefer is :Se:Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaebette
Do you prefer generating ideas or make things happen in reality?
If you're sure of your type, that's fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaebette
I do think there's something wrong though when a person types as IEE on tests then decides they are EII. Is it possible? I suppose so. But, there's a big difference between E/I types (and J/P types) which is something for me i'd wonder about. I suppose it's called an anomaly.
now I want my own support thread. Being D sub is not easy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007
Well, I like making all the arrangements for my idea to happen in reality. I guess I do bothQuote:
Originally Posted by WinnieW
I guess the next question is how you handle obstacles on the way to turn your ideas into reality.
Do you work around these obstacles or push them away?
The word "arrangements" in this context sounds :Te: to me, tbh.
Well if they fail I'll try and look for an alternative way to do it but with less vigour, then i get moody, I shut down, feel pathetic. Go to sleep. Wait for a new day to start over.Quote:
Originally Posted by WinnieW
C subs often seem a little confused, or shy, or sensitive or unbalanced. They are constantly swinging between "extroversion" and "introversion". Even in mild cases one can see this if looking carefully.
Often they can have long monologues about their own stuff, that is hard for anybody to listen to.
They often seem not present in the moment. But then when they do their own thing it's natural.
Physically they can look "worn out", especially if older, but also young Cs can look that way. Not always though.
Their free spirit is sometimes compensated by a very strict, normal attitude.
Not in the present seems to be common with normalizing and creative. Am I right?
It just seems that I'm atrached to very different layers of reality with normalizing types. Actually I'm not really sure of my subtype. Maybe creative is off and underlying trait of my type which seems more plausible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007
C often seems to have to sort out own inner things when dealing with outer reality, but if they can do just their own thing, then they are very present. Normalizers seem present I think, especially if they are in a social situation where they can contribute.
Its hard to generalize though. It depends probably on the ideal situation for the particular subtype.
C-ILE can have strict logics in my experience, like they have to figure out exactly how things should be, and they can be unhappy if things are not right. Sometimes they can be controlling, at least the women. In this sense they can seem like normalizers superficially. But N is much more calm and stable.
My own form of attachment to reality seems to be bit predictive. Like imaging where things are going and basing actions on that. It is not really that I chase my own destiny or anything ego related.
Well, it is to the point where people say that we do not know what you are up to.
@Shaebette just out of curiosity, what does being Delta NF mean to you? What traits or views, etc.? And what does beta NF mean to you that you see as very different (i.e. not typing as that)?
Possible when the person hasn't yet understood themselves or when they really are close to midrange on both E/I and J/P. Happened for me too.Quote:
Originally Posted by at sirac son of sirac
I think C makes sense for you, you are definitely not N (or D). I also doubt H.Quote:
Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007
Yeah. I'm bad at following others. I rather do things my own way. This was present especially when I studied math. Sometimes it was much harder to follow and easier to generate solutions I saw best fitting.
About C-EII
I think a good example is author Ulla-Lena Lundberg. She is a funny little lady. Writes good books too. Very "EII feeling" about her.
"EIIs use Fe AFTER their Fi needs have been met right?"Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaebette
Not exactly. Yes, they can use Fe as long as it doesn't conflict with Fi needs, but they will still be "lazy" about it and it won't be their primary motivation to have fun and create positive experiences for others. The kind of vocabulary and concepts people use of their own accord is very telling, I would need to see some positive evidence of Fi motivations.
Hi, time to invade this thread as well.
My EII sister does not use Fe very often. Sometimes if she has a few drinks she will loosen up a bit. In general she is more reserved than me and I can be reserved in some situations so I don't look foolish. It's not that she can't use it. It just isn't her preference.Quote:
Originally Posted by thehotelambush
An example is when we were all younger my ESE sister, my IEI brother and I would open her bedroom windows when we were in a goofy mood and sing badly and loudly so the neighbors would hear and think it was her. Instead of joining us she would get a bit irritated about it and tell us all to be quiet and shut the windows. Some Fe valuers think she is a fun spoiler but I think she is easily embarrassed by that kind of behavior. I can be embarrassed to perform in front of people but I don't take issue with it the way she does. I don't really care how other people have fun but she she feels more uncomfortable in high energy situations way more than the rest of my family. She is the only delta in my immediate family. I have a delta uncle that she really vibes with.
My other brother and sister would always prefer riding in the car with me before they got their own cars and licenses because my EII sister is so reserved and doesn't like loud music or people who act silly in her car. She is always telling us to turn the music down and keep our eyes on the road. When she opens up and lets herself use Fe is is so cute and she seems happy but she has limited endurance for it. She participates but like you say she doesn't use it as her primary way to have fun and create positive experiences for others. I think she uses Ne more for that. As children she was not really one to use facial expressions on our LSI mom to get her way either. The rest of us have done that and still do. :shrug:
I mean as far as ethical intuitive introverts go IEI is the more outgoing with EII being the quasi which basically has the same strengths and weaknesses but takes it in the completely different direction. these types are inherently less aggressive and more agreeable and EII is on the far side of that. if EII is at one end of the entire socion there can be no room for something more extreme, because it is the extremity by definition. in this sense if you conceive of the full range of personality and someone falls somewhere in the middle its unlikely they're a peripheral type like EII. EII is keenly aware of what an outsider they are. although they probably have spent a lot of time coming to terms with it I don't think they exactly seek it out like a flag to wave. my immediate suspicion when someone wants to be EII is they are trying to compensate by running to the margins for feelings of inadequate uniqueness, because society has told recent generations the label is good (although they punish the reality), C subtype sort of compounds the issue but EII C would by definition be the generator of ethical ideas. how often do you see that? that people don't fully comprehend how rare it is goes to show they can't tell the difference between gossip (which usually centers around things ultimately) and the wellbeing of souls... if we use C to explode EII into its opposite its like saying Fe as a Fi way of life. its just Fe; in the same way EII C is just some version of a social type if there is no actual layer. in other words, for a type to be contradictory, i.e.: sophisticated, one must demonstrate why it can't be explained by simply being a different type without recourse to subtype that explains just as much if not more with less. if that is the case there is no need for a Ptolemaic contortion. enneagram suffers from the same abuse. on the other hand, presuming to know people better than they know themselves is a bad move. but its not so much them as it is the rules of the system and as much as I like breaking rules there needs to be a rationality underlying it that justifies doing so
The :Ne:-creative and :Se:-PoLR way to handle such situations — Try an other method or approach.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaebette
Yeah that's more like characteristic Fi/Si-valuing introvert behavior (aka the exact opposite).Quote:
Originally Posted by Aylen
Same for my EII sister. Fi sub btw but the Ne subs aren't all that different with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aylen
So...
The creative starts to coordinate and takes role of a normalizer type by monitoring developments when he/she has generated his/her own creation.
The harmonizer starts to take a leading position of a dominant type when is put into position when situation calls for it.
I think I'm more a type than normalizing type in those situations. :thinking:
I think a normalizer who takes up role of a harmonizer looks bit funny. I suppose it always looks bit funny when changing roles.
Well i obviously define them by the functions they value. So Delta NF would primarily be Ne and Fi, and Beta NF would be Fe and Ni, but I mostly identify them by their Se-seeking or Se-valuing (what they talk about, what they see in others etc). I'm not Beta NF, that I'm sure of.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myst
Can you let go of socionics lingo and use your own words/everyday words to describe the traits/views/etc?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaebette
Honestly I don't feel like doing so :( Can we end the whole personality questioning here?Quote:
Originally Posted by Myst
Sure, no worries, I was just curious, not questioning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaebette
ESI Creative Subtype - Ronaldo il fenomeno:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3tC9rfZz7k