What are your thoughts on an ESE-Fe and SLI-Te romantic relationship? I may have mistyped my LSI-Ti.
We have so much chemistry it would be difficult to consider this supervison.
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What are your thoughts on an ESE-Fe and SLI-Te romantic relationship? I may have mistyped my LSI-Ti.
We have so much chemistry it would be difficult to consider this supervison.
Why don't you tell us about your LSI/SLI? Maybe we can help a bit with finding his type.
Private
Quiet
Serious
Open to fun plans/adventures if suggested by me
Works a lot
Exercises a lot
Does not like excuses
Not open to many different ideas unless they lead to a goal
Polite
When angered there is quite a temper
Does not like stupidity at all- things should be logical
Not aggressive-but not afraid to tell someone off if they step out of line
Sentimental in his heart
Kind
Loyal
Loving
Routine
Goal centered
hates psychoanalysis and dislikes personality testing
Won't talk
Not easy to open up to others but can be sympathetic
Suspicious of others
Critical of stupidity
Cares for a small network of people
Health focused and driven
Good saver
Enjoys physical adventures/being outside
Kind of gritty and rugged
Does not care about clothes or decor
Enjoys technical work
Can withstand working long hours
Physical- needs to exercise daily
Doesn't care what people think of him generally
The bolded parts are like the SLI Te I know but I guess we can't conclude many things from this. I have focused on SLI because it's the type I know better.
I think if you're sure of your type, you'll probably know and understand what Fe is and can easily spot it in people who value it. Same thing for Fi.
And this:
"ISTps can often hurt the ones they love. Why would you want to do this? The one way to understand your feelings towards the loved ones is by hurting them and watching them suffer, only then you can be sure of how much you love them. Sounds cruel, but unfortunately this is the strange nature of this particular type of hidden agenda, which cannot be used as an excuse for such behaviour."
I think this behavior is number one indicator of someone being ISTp from my experience (when you're becoming close to them).
The only LSI I've met, was also not so into tests and all that... he was a workaholic, I felt that he was hiding everything about himself. He can sometimes out of nowhere say affectionate things to his friends. He was also so confident and polite... So yeah most of what you said about your SLI/LSI apply here.
The differences I could think of:
ISTps are unpredictable unlike ISTjs.
ISTjs may be harsh and controlling while SLIs are more gentle and forgiving.
ISTps are generally relaxed, even though SLI-Te at first may look grumpy and angry, but when you get to know them, they're easy going and laid back.
ISTjs have a hard time taking a break and they are more likely to be workaholics.
I just remembered an ESE/SLI-Te interaction. I guess it went badly... especially on part of the SLI. In our class, he was always grumpy or even sad and she often tried to make him happier, she would tell him he should smile more, sometimes she will behave in ways that often lead him to snap out at her and sometimes even insulting her, she used to irritate him a lot... Though the ESE never took his insults seriously and wanted to help, while the SLI was trying to take her advice. What I liked in their interactions is that they were being themselves.
Based in the description I agree in SLI over LSI.
If I have to describe common traits of LSIs…I'd say...very J (rational).
Planners
Interested in others opinion, money or fame (social appreciation), serious but pretty social ppl, have a lot of friends, love social stuff, like parties.
Direct ppl (almost insulting),
Very individualistic in pursuing their own goals (that are dictated by social/group views or behavior often),
Like clear rules
Responsible when adults (but selfish at the same time, you cant expect for help or so much consideration from them).
They are not interested in doing new things or alternative ways, they love doing what everybody else do, having what everyone else have, and following simple concrete structures/rules with concrete prizes/objectives etc.
I think that LSIs and ESEs can have understanding in both valuing Fe and Ti.
In contrast, SLI have fewer friends and are less or not interested in socialization, not open in social environments (a loner), much more alternative interests (more open to new experiences and alternative thinking, prone to have their own view of the world and things), looking for distinctions (not being or doing the same just because everybody else is doing it), pretty hard to convince (stubborn), goal oriented (doesn't work without clear goals), not motivated by social stuff (fame, money, etc) but comfort, lazy, can have problems with motivation (LSIs are pretty easy to motivate from Fe, SLIs from Fi -feelings), much more caring, supporting, providing tangible help (money or support in physical way, like cleaning or fixing things), an ear to listen (in contrast to LSIs that don't enjoy listening to ppl feelings), advisers, and supporters in general (LSIs are more individualistic, you cant expect them helping with chores, f.e.), much more unpredictable, hard to know, intellectually independent etc.
About my mom, she's ESE 2 with a 6 fix, we get along pretty good. She has always been a loving, accepting and forgiving mother. I lose my temper with her once in a while (when she's inopportune), but when I was a kid it was the opposite, she was the one losing her temper with me once in a while. To me ESEs have like 2 opposite personalities...one who is completely loving, supporting and excessively caring (Si), and other that is full of anger, resentment and condemnation/revenge (Fe). They rarely use this with the ppl they love, though (friends, family, children, partner -if they are in love with him/her etc).
Also I think that a friend of mine is ESE-Si 6w7. She's a very good friend, we don't have so much intimacy like I have had with another friends (like having an emotional connection or something really deep) but she has always been very supporting and kind with me. According her I've the face of a serial killer. lol
Edit. Pewdiepie one of the most famous youtubers score ISTJ in MBTI, what would be LSI in socionics, since he presents a clear picture of the Fe Se valuing that I've had observed in the LSIs I know personally.
Once she noticed I wasn't my usual self, the next day she brought me many gifts and made it obvious that she was worried. This ESE probably didn't realise how much her behavior irritates him or just didn't take it seriously. But for the SLI... he perceived it as a lack of respect. I guess it has to do with the different values Fi/Te or Fe/Ti. They talked many times and she tried to help but other than that there was no deep connection (the SLI said it once).
With respect to a relationship that I've witnessed for over the 10 years (no libido influences), the older female ESE thinks that the male SLI has no social graces and is too intransigent to attract a mate; she has lots of advice for his social life, eating habits and personal health, and he politely tolerates the sermons but doesn't seem to act on any of it. In a way, she tries to mother him and the SLI sees her as trying to be helpful but finds her rather meddlesome and thinks her advice is, for the most part, useless gibber-jabber. They seem to talk but don't communicate; the ESE doggedly tries to advance her points and the SLI tries parry her thrusts. The SLI eventually has enough and walks away while the ESE is still talking "at him"......:content:
a.k.a. I/O
Your descrition sonds more LSI than SLI :thinking:
Assuming that your LSI really turns out to be a SLI-Te, supervision is often labeled as "impossible", "unpleasant" and so on by socionics. My experience is quite the opposite, actually. You often feel good chemistry and sometimes can even end up in a romantic relationship with them. The problem is that you are attracted to the demonstrative(maybe that's why there is a good chemistry) and don't care about the base because you already have your own Si as a creative function. The SLI would often ridicule Ti(annoying if you value Ti) and the ESE can't just switch off Fe (and would likely feel offended by the negative response to the base). I have supervised my entire life and it's not as terrible as the theory makes it sound. I've found that it's a lot easier if I just engage more in the creative when I am around supervisees, it certainly doesn't make me their dual but at least the communication is a lot better. Also you are from neighbouring quadras and your worldviews should be somewhat similar.
Can't think of an example of SLI-ESE supervision, but from my experience Se egos have worse supervisions than Si egos.
Um, LSIs are introverts too. Your description doesn't sound much like them. It may fit LSE or even an ethical extrovert better than LSI. But more than anything it describes someone with strong so instinct rather than any particular socionics type.
All the IxTxs share the "cold-blooded" style: http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.p...ication_styles -- The most clear differences between them and SLI is with their receptivity to Fe input, and their Se>Si attitude.
I wasnt focusing in our similarities but differences in the description...so not saying LSIs are not introverts...just that they enjoy more social life than SLIs and thats what jumps to me as difference between they and me. At least thats how it is for the 3 LSIs that I know are, including my brother.
Actually, lot of the things that I mentioned are part of the quadra values more than just LSI. The LSIs I know really value Fe, and I'm not saying that they arent shy for doing new friends or talking to ppl, but this...
a) they prefer rules and structures in all their life (including social life). They care for social standards.
b) they care about how they are seen and work for fitting standards (like nice cars, money etc)
c) enjoy group activities (like parties or meetings with their friends in weekends).
d) individualistic or selfish when it comes to emotional support or daily chores
e)j over p
Two of them are LSI-Se, other is LSI-Ti, he is more 'strange' in comparision of the Ses, however he enjoys Fe, f.e. parties and group activities with his selected group(every weekend).
I dont know if it all is SO instinct, I dont think so since I've seen the same kind of things in other Fe valuers.
Finally, could sound like LSE, if you read just like that, but LSE has a lot of other things that LSI dont do in talking just about social matters, f.e.
A) LSE seeks for leading
B) LSE don't care for how they are seen, luxury or fitting in social standards (not nice cars, not muscles, not money for others to see, popular music, trends)
C) LSE impose ideas and dominate conversations
D) Joke
E) Is helpful (even taking the whole responsability and organization of activities) and a giver. Not selfish or individualistic
F) Enjoy spending time in several groups and comitees and working for social/political causes.
Maybe if yoy make a list or point some differences of LSI and SLI since your pov could help to figure out LSIs in a better way. Also I would appreciate removing quote, I fixed post, thanks.
There is the Se vs Si difference, I gave examples HERE
the tldr of that is
Si: Let's stop and have a picnic
Se: No! We must reach the top!
and also
Si: be careful, follow the safety regulations, enjoy
Se: what can I make this do??
Then there is the Fe difference. Fe is emotional energy, not sociability. Trying to inspire or motivate an Fe polr through emotional energy is much like kicking a wall. The more a person jumps around with enthusiasm trying to infuse the atmosphere with an emotional impetus to action the more the Fe polr will stand unmoved. Not so for IxTjs.
Here's a rather long exchange between User Name and I from my blog regarding his type in relation to Fe suggestive:
@squark, thats pretty good. But what I listed is my opinion about the differences that I perceive between SLI and LSI. Not a list of theory.
I didnt just mention different social values as the only difference, btw. I think that emotional energy(Fe) and reaching the top (Se) is reached through social environments talking about the ppl I know irl.If you are different or if theory explains it of different ways, idk. But I'm commenting since my pov as SLI. In other words, that is what I"ve seen, and thats my particular or personal description of them, maybe they are different of how I perceive them. I'm totally aware that X type cant describe Y type in the most pure way since our differences.
The focus on being sociable, getting together with people every weekend, and following the crowd etc that you mentioned clearly has nothing to do with being LSI. I don't know that you've even typed those people correctly (which is always an issue when people give examples of those they know.) So, unless it also makes sense within the theory (which your description doesn't) then it's hard to take it on face value as "this is what LSIs are like."
@squark my brother has been typed through tests. He's LSI 1w9. And my intention wasnt make of my post another piece of theory. It was my perception and opinion of differences to sorrows question. If you or others want to take them as untrustworthy for not fitting with exact terms of theory thats ok too. At the end (as I repeated before) its my perception and opinion. Its ok if others disagree and stick to their own.
That wasn't the point. The point was that specific aspects that you mentioned: the social aspects in particular, were not LSI-related characteristics. For an extreme example it would be like me listing: SLIs have brown eyes. If you mix in characteristics and behaviors that aren't actually tied to element and function usages it's going to paint an inaccurate picture. That's all.
Sounds more Ni-valuing fwiw.
Could be an interesting read: http://www.metafilter.com/151267/Whe...motional-LaborQuote:
Short term plans (weekends, trips, family celebrations, dates, movies etc) he prefers I do and share all the details in advance. On Friday night he will often say "What are we doing this weekend?". I hate planning so much:(
Nice start point is the post posted by Eyebrows McGee at 4:30 PM on July 15, 2015.
@squark
TiSe: that's what an specific part of theory says. (Regardless what anyone else have seen or experienced).
What makes sense to you is not what makes sense to me or the inverse. Saying that TiSe makes sense over SiTe is a limited understanding, imo. Also I've 4dTi too. Its not that what I say doesnt make any sense. Its like I value experience and observations besides theory. Plus, theory means hypothesis, supposition, conjecture, speculation, etc.
That's why socionics is a personality theory. Theory is not the same as law. Socionics is not a science, can't be treated as such.
In regards to theories, I appreciate experience and opinions, unlikely some Ti valuers, guess.
It wasn't an insult, nor did I say that you didn't make sense.
Thisis the distinction I'm drawing. Of course I ALSO value observations and experience, it's a difference of focus however. It's the difference between saying "how do my observations fit within this system" vs "these are all my observations."Quote:
Originally Posted by Syrup
So, from my perspective, I'm leaving out the things that don't matter, that have no bearing on or relation to type. That's what it looks like to me.
I wasn't trying to put you down or anything like that at all. Drawing a distinction between ways of approaching something isn't the same thing as saying that one thing is better or worse. I wasn't saying that your approach was bad or anything like that - just different from mine. And clarifying that some of the things you mentioned weren't related to LSI as a type.
@squark
I wasn't trying to offend or insult LSIs either when saying that the ones I know irl value more social stuff (that I interpret as valuing Fe and Se) than me.
But maybe you felt offended because you though that my opinion exclude some ppl as LSI or my post was trying to normalize or set a behavior as rule trait for LSIs (something I think a Se/Fe would do), but was not my intention at any rate.
No, I wasn't offended at all. I don't identify myself with my type, so it makes little difference to me. This whole time I was just trying to clarify what was and was not related to the type. The social aspects that you mentioned were what stood out most strongly to me as not being related.
I don't even like to use myself as an example, so don't do so that often. I don't think the over-identification that can happen is very useful as a whole - for example if someone is constantly saying "I don't do that" or "I do that/ I relate to that" and inserting themselves as an example of a type in every circumstance because it only says what they do or don't like and doesn't really say anything about how various things relate to the type as a whole. I'm sure your brother is quite social like you mentioned, and may also be LSI. That's not a contradiction. However, being social isn't part of being LSI, that's a separate trait. And it's one that is probably found more often in some other types, especially extroverts. So yeah, nothing you said offended me, I just wanted to bring some clarity. I probably didn't do so in the smoothest way though.
I think this pretty much fits in what I was trying to say about LSIs and their social streak:
Strat is godlike in her ability to describe how types work from a Fi perspective
I would say the relationship results in a checkmate for both. :Fe:-:Te: in that subtype constellation turn out to be very stubborn, contrary to a very high degree. The tragedy is that SLI-Te's :Ti: is just excellent and feeds ESE naturally, but not the other way around, not much :Ne: found from ESE-Fe. That's why supervision is so one-sided, you can feel that instantly.
In my opinion, it results in worse than SLI or SLI-Si.
As, when your accepting function usage increases, so it does in your super ego block, so for SLI, that's an increase in Fe, and SLI's Fe is a no gooder for producing when around a proper Fe type.
The best way for an SLI to improve their Fe, is not really through usage, but by absorption - strengthening the F function through Fi results in the other side Fe being better too.
She's talking about society and systems, not about going out and socializing every weekend with friends. Very different things. It's more like having a role, a part to play, and knowing where you stand, not chit-chatting and showing off your car. . .
--
I also think Strat has some very odd views in general including her belief that all SEEs will cheat on their partners and steal other people's spouses and that all betas are so instinct, but the quality of her descriptions is a separate issue. Even with her biased viewpoint, she's not saying what you think she's saying.
Exactly. She means what she means and words means what words means not what you would like it to say, subjectively.Quote:
Any phenomenon is viewed by him as part of certain existing system, that is regulated by certain patters and laws and a certain logical order, understanding which the LSI considers to be his obligation.
Perceiving his surrounding reality from the point of view of its systematization, logical design, and coherence, the ISTj is constantly analyzing the systems existing around himself - the system of logical and ethical interrelations, the systems of social structures, the system of views and opinions, the systems of life values.
So I don't know what kind of interpretation you could give to these words.
I should suppose that any phenomenon means to you "some phenomena" and it means that socialization is excluded by fact. Ok.
In other words, LSIs value social systems and systematization of their surrounding reality, but dont value what society values, like for example, having a decent social life or having a nice car. Ok.
The systematization of their surroundings can't include systematized friendships and acquaintances either. Ok.
The social life of ppl doesnt make them know what role they play in society as a system or in micro systems (like school,work or groups etc). I don't know why you associate chit chat with friendships or anything either, btw.
And finally you are right. Strat can be very impartial sometimes, especially in the relations descriptions. However, in terms of describing types behavior its pretty valuable.
It's translated from Russian to English which isn't your first language and you're misunderstanding what is being said. I can certainly detail it out for you sentence by sentence and explain, but I've already done that before other places thoroughly. I don't want to do it all over again. You can look it up, or believe whatever you want to believe, it hardly matters either way.
It's correctly translated, you're just not correctly interpreting it. In other words, you're looking at it from the pov of "my brother is LSI and this is how he is, therefore this is what this means" rather than looking at it from the point of view of what it actually means and why this fits with the theory. That's why it doesn't matter, because it's not going to change how you see it. Your brother might not even be LSI, which is another thing you won't accept because tests. So, there's no point in me trying to explain. It'd be like me trying to explain to @Bertrand why his concept of Fe is wrong . . . completely pointless. It takes being willing to look at the whys of the theory and not just examples and stereotypes. And I just don't see that happening.
to understand why an interpretation is "correct" (i.e.: better than the alternatives), you have to understand all seriously competing interpretations [1], as well as make the case as to what standard, when they're collectively judged in light of, makes one better than the other. most people just assume every other interpretation than the only one they personally understand is wrong and simply go about forcefully trying to subordinate people to their own. these are the stalins and ******s of the world, Se>Ne approach to unification. its decidedly anti-jungian, so its always ironic to see it in action in re socionics. but this is precisely how most good ideas get subverted by totalitarian assholes. see for example the history of the church
[1] you can't critique what you don't understand, you can only silence it through either direct physical elimination at the source of dissent (i.e.: the person) or by pushing them out of space in terms of Fe (mob mentality). this is the currency beta runs off of, and their legacy
In summary:
a) No one (who's not russian) can interpret theory correctly because we are not russians, even if its correctly translated. :thumbsup:
b) The russian speakers (natives or whatever) who can interpret this correctly, won't do it because is pointless since the rest of us (pretty much everyone who doesn't agree with your opinion) are full of stereotypes and unwilling to look at theory.
c) No one who hang out with some friends is likely to be LSI, even if s/he scores LSI.
d) Anyone who doesnt agree with your opinion is able to type correctly others, even if its supported by tests (because, tests are wrong and people manipulate them - especially if they get consistent results, which is a clear sign of manipulation, lol-, pretty much just because some other people cant get consistent results over time).
e) Is pointless trying to explain anything or support one's arguments with factual info, because others won't change, however, one should do a public manifestation of nonconformity anyway.
And I wonder, where is the coherence or logic in this kind of posture?
You seem to keep high standards for everybody else but not for yourself.
So at least I hope you'll be able to respect your own policy in the future and stop initiating pointless debates or arguments of any kind with me.
Well, my dealing with ISTps are mainly from my marching band instructor, who was pretty much the greatest marching band instructor you could ever have. Actually I don't know, but he really made it seem like it. Taught me a bunch, like lead by example. Thing is, he was literally known as the greatest saxophone player in his band in high school. I'd believe it. Very idealistic, I'd think. Thing is, I can probably out think him. Like his way of doing things does work, but I remember in one example, I figured out like two alternative means of doing what he was doing, then figured out the problem in the time it took for him to do just the one. To be fair, I was very well experienced in the matter, and teaching this to me was like showing a millennial how to use an iPad. But yeah, he's up there on my most well respected role models. If I say anyone was an influence, it was him. He had everything, from unlimited positive regard, skill to lead by example. Not only knowing the concept, but having the ability to follow through. He's the person who taught me the term, lead by example. He taught me you only really know something if you can tell someone else, given adequate means of communication. He'd wreck me in a physical contest though. Like easy. I remember, he had a baton, and he was just flipping it. Like no problem. I did that, I'd end up hurting someone. To be fair, he did color guard for an off season, and I did not at all. Yeah, there are other things, but hey, enough about me. He probably has about equal praise for me as well, though, in hindsight. He has told me I'm spot on pitch wise, like not flat or sharp, on several occasions. I'd agree.
I'd say probably no. From my dealings with LSI, I believe that they're the stereotypical eneagram 8 conqueror introvert type thing. Not sure, I've only met the one. Met plenty of INFps though, oddly enough. But yeah, I really doubt my marching band instructor would exude Se in any form. At all. Like he's more a behind the scenes type guy who purely shines through because of how much he goes out of his way to do his job. Like living in near poverty, traveling miles to get to work. On thanksgiving he goes to a football game and does the whole management type thing. Then he drives to Philadelphia. As a comparison, I'd be done after that performance, and about time to go hit the sack and do something self serving. I think I paint you a good picture. He'd probably say I'm giving him too much credit, but hey. It isn't just him though, he has help, of course. Can't manage 120ish kids alone.
Anyways, as for LSI, I'd already gone over this before, which is why I'm going over SLI. I have more information on the SLI anyways.