How to communicate with an LIE-ENTj

So my new boss is a LIE and I see some potential problems arise that I had with my previous LIE-boss: communication.

Previous boss: We could talk to each other, form complete and accurate sentences but no one would understand the other. We needed an ESI for translation. Sometimes when the LIE asks me a question - when I start talking he is frustrated after a second. It's like I can't say a word without crossing some invisible line.

I worry that the same could happen again this time and screw everything.

My questions are - how do I successfully communicate my thoughts to a LIE.
What should I never say.
Same goes for emails.

help me please I'm so lost :cry: @Adam Strange, @Anglas, @Zero, @FDG



Edit: Some backstory that might be relevant.

I have a completely different philosophy than LIEs when it comes to productivity and life in general.

At my previous workplace the LIE wanted to teach me the necessary skills. Sadly his teaching methods were destructive to my learning curve. His approach was to tell me everything bit by bit or suddenly give me another project to condition me to a fast changing environment (web-dev.). He disliked (or couldn't) giving me important details, hoped that somehow everything would turn out well, underestimated my learning ability or withheld information because otherwise I would "just worry about it".

I tried to tell him that I absolutely need the details, need to concentrate, prefer to have all the information so I can teach myself and plan the project. That would speed up the whole process but there was no way I could convince him that meticulous planning at the beginning saves time on the long run. But all he wanted were results results results...

To help me he insisted that I read a book that "changed his life" - Getting Things Done http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1...ng_Things_Done
But the book that helped me most is - Mastery http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/8...om_search=true

How does the ESI translation typically look like?

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Originally Posted by Chae

How does the ESI translation typically look like?

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From my perspective the ESI said the same thing but shorter and minus the parts that I find important. At times the ESI just repeats my sentence and suddenly everything is okay. It felt so ridiculous to me.


Typical conversation:

LIE: asks something
Me: answers
LIE: *looks at ESI* I don't understand a word. What is the meaning of this?
ESI: summarizes what I said in the most simple way - without the whys and hows


It looked like this to me:

LIE: What's the plot of les Miserables?
Me: gives plot description
LIE: *looks at ESI* I don't understand a word. What is the meaning of this?
ESI: They all die. End.

For the most part, when I communicate with a Si possessing or Si valuing person, they always object to me about missing on the details, specially SLI, it is not as if I do it on purpose, it just doesn't seem important to me while the same work will be done without the details, in shorter time. So I don't think that reminding the LIE to pay attention to detail, will make any positive change. They will either dislike themselves or dislike the person who is forcing them, or both :P

About communication I know exactly what you are saying. I have a bad habit that I judge people's efficiency based on some things they say, and then they have to do something that really impresses me afterwards, to change my mind about them.
For example if someone has talked 3 paragraphs but hasn't made a single point or said something useful, I automatically stop listening to them and start thinking about something else. This happens quite often with ESEs, EIEs and SEIs.
And "useful" in the LIE dictionary also has different meaning.

I would suggest that you be as concise as possible and put a lot of information in each sentence. also even though we LIEs communicate with people on close psychological distances, we greatly dislike someone being nosy about our personal lives

The thing about ESI translation is ESI- LIE dyad has a very "us" "our friends" attitude and they wanna know if you are an "us" or "them". Also I read in LIE description "never does a person of this type say explain this to me, they say give me the facts and tell me what needs to be done" which is exactly true. When someone explains things to me I often automatically feel that they want me to see it their way, while I want to figure it out my way, do it by myself. Tell me what needs to be done, what has been done, but not how to do it, or how you did it (specially in detail).

I think overall LIEs seem much scarier than they really are. I have been told by my friends that at first they thought I was a highly selective straight forwards arrogant asshole but then when they get closer they see that they were wrong. I can be easy to hang out with and don't judge people whom I respect, since I know the person has put effort in winning my respect.

@Zero very sound advice. Would details also entail :Ti: information?

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Originally Posted by Zero

For the most part, when I communicate with a Si possessing or Si valuing person, they always object to me about missing on the details, specially SLI, it is not as if I do it on purpose, it just doesn't seem important to me while the same work will be done without the details, in shorter time. So I don't think that reminding the LIE to pay attention to detail, will make any positive change. They will either dislike themselves or dislike the person who is forcing them, or both :P

About communication I know exactly what you are saying. I have a bad habit that I judge people's efficiency based on some things they say, and then they have to do something that really impresses me afterwards, to change my mind about them.
For example if someone has talked 3 paragraphs but hasn't made a single point or said something useful, I automatically stop listening to them and start thinking about something else. This happens quite often with ESEs, EIEs and SEIs.
And "useful" in the LIE dictionary also has different meaning.

I would suggest that you be as concise as possible and put a lot of information in each sentence. also even though we LIEs communicate with people on close psychological distances, we greatly dislike someone being nosy about our personal lives

The thing about ESI translation is ESI- LIE dyad has a very "us" "our friends" attitude and they wanna know if you are an "us" or "them". Also I read in LIE description "never does a person of this type say explain this to me, they say give me the facts and tell me what needs to be done" which is exactly true. When someone explains things to me I often automatically feel that they want me to see it their way, while I want to figure it out my way, do it by myself. Tell me what needs to be done, what has been done, but not how to do it, or how you did it (specially in detail).

I think overall LIEs seem much scarier than they really are. I have been told by my friends that at first they thought I was a highly selective straight forwards arrogant asshole but then when they get closer they see that they were wrong. I can be easy to hang out with and don't judge people whom I respect, since I know the person has put effort in winning my respect.

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god yes

my mom is EIE and I feel like she absolutely cannot get a story out. it never ends. never gets to the point. it basically just wastes time without ever reaching a conclusion or saying anything meaningful along the way. it feels like pure white noise and could easily be summed up in like 2 seconds based on what real content there is to it

it gets to the point where, like you said, I just give up. it feels like they want to prattle on for its own sake so I just let them, since apparently that's the true point of it all and my job is simply to be "the audience" not actually derive any real usable information. I forget sometimes to her conversation has no point, as in conveying factual information or practical insight, rather emoting empty solipsistic Ni viewpoints is the point

i forget that to me conversation entails an exchange that needs to merit the time spent listening (i.e.: not be a waste of time), whereas for them the point is to make a unilateral performance which the rest of us should feel blessed for having been in the mere presence of, because its I guess conveying Fe + Ni which for some people is apparently like mana from heaven

also I never thought LIEs were scary, but rather awesome to have around because it meant if you ran into any sort of trouble at all you'd be as well off as anyone could be. in other words, they're never useless and that's a comfort when it feels like most people only multiply their problems (and i actively try to avoid being caught in their bullshit) whereas LIEs are one of the few types who consistently reduce/solve problems, which really does seem to me like mana from heaven

it boils down to "creates drama" vs "creates solutions" in EIE v LIE. for people so boring they legitimately consider suicide an exciting option (LSI), I could see how EIE is great, but since I have a capacity to feel meaning all by myself I much prefer the company of LIE

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zero

For the most part, when I communicate with a Si possessing or Si valuing person, they always object to me about missing on the details, specially SLI, it is not as if I do it on purpose, it just doesn't seem important to me while the same work will be done without the details, in shorter time. So I don't think that reminding the LIE to pay attention to detail, will make any positive change. They will either dislike themselves or dislike the person who is forcing them, or both :P

About communication I know exactly what you are saying. I have a bad habit that I judge people's efficiency based on some things they say, and then they have to do something that really impresses me afterwards, to change my mind about them.
For example if someone has talked 3 paragraphs but hasn't made a single point or said something useful, I automatically stop listening to them and start thinking about something else. This happens quite often with ESEs, EIEs and SEIs.
And "useful" in the LIE dictionary also has different meaning.

I would suggest that you be as concise as possible and put a lot of information in each sentence. also even though we LIEs communicate with people on close psychological distances, we greatly dislike someone being nosy about our personal lives

The thing about ESI translation is ESI- LIE dyad has a very "us" "our friends" attitude and they wanna know if you are an "us" or "them". Also I read in LIE description "never does a person of this type say explain this to me, they say give me the facts and tell me what needs to be done" which is exactly true. When someone explains things to me I often automatically feel that they want me to see it their way, while I want to figure it out my way, do it by myself. Tell me what needs to be done, what has been done, but not how to do it, or how you did it (specially in detail).

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Very helpful I'll keep that in mind!

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Originally Posted by Zero

I think overall LIEs seem much scarier than they really are. I have been told by my friends that at first they thought I was a highly selective straight forwards arrogant asshole but then when they get closer they see that they were wrong. I can be easy to hang out with and don't judge people whom I respect, since I know the person has put effort in winning my respect.

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true :P

I agree with Zero - be concise. If the LIE asks you a specific question, answer only that question, don't give them any more information in hopes you'll get some extra credit, doesn't work that way. People always try to do that, they are always answering simple questions with extra information that to an LIE can just feel like wasting time. Sometimes I'll ask a question expecting a simple "yes" or "no" answer, I'll receive it, thank them and start walking away, then realize they are still talking and adding extra details that I didn't ask for that aren't useful to me. Then there are some people who start with the details and make me hunt for the answer hidden somewhere in their response.

There's actually a communication style used by health professionals called SBAR (Situation, Background, Assessment, Recommendation), created for the purpose of facilitating prompt and efficient communication. If you're expected to give a lot of information, having some kind of structure like that can be helpful for organizing your thoughts and communicating concisely. You might be able to either use that or create an adaptation of it that fits the situation.

Whenever possible, you should 1) favor short and to the point responses, and 2) favor steps/actions/situations over explanations of how things work. LIEs are more concerned with what the situation is and what needs to be done, and don't really care for explanations of how things work.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chae

@Zero very sound advice. Would details also entail :Ti: information?

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Yes, good point. the "how" and "why" is basically Ti and the LIE doesn't care about it unless he directly asks about it.
for example the way LII absorbs information about programming is like a waste of time for me. I respect that the want to know, but can't follow the same attitude myself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by isptn

I agree with Zero - be concise. If the LIE asks you a specific question, answer only that question, don't give them any more information in hopes you'll get some extra credit, doesn't work that way. People always try to do that, they are always answering simple questions with extra information that to an LIE can just feel like wasting time. Sometimes I'll ask a question expecting a simple "yes" or "no" answer, I'll receive it, thank them and start walking away, then realize they are still talking and adding extra details that I didn't ask for that aren't useful to me. Then there are some people who start with the details and make me hunt for the answer hidden somewhere in their response.

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Yes, an "I don't know" is always better than answering something else. actually we like being asked questions and respect people who are brave enough to say "i don't know" and we like to tell them what it is and how it can be used etc.

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Originally Posted by Bertrand

god yes

my mom is EIE and I feel like she absolutely cannot get a story out. it never ends. never gets to the point. it basically just wastes time without ever reaching a conclusion or saying anything meaningful along the way. it feels like pure white noise and could easily be summed up in like 2 seconds based on what real content there is to it

it gets to the point where, like you said, I just give up. it feels like they want to prattle on for its own sake so I just let them, since apparently that's the true point of it all and my job is simply to be "the audience" not actually derive any real usable information. I forget sometimes to her conversation has no point, as in conveying factual information or practical insight, rather emoting empty solipsistic Ni viewpoints is the point

i forget that to me conversation entails an exchange that needs to merit the time spent listening (i.e.: not be a waste of time), whereas for them the point is to make a unilateral performance which the rest of us should feel blessed for having been in the mere presence of, because its I guess conveying Fe + Ni which for some people is apparently like mana from heaven

also I never thought LIEs were scary, but rather awesome to have around because it meant if you ran into any sort of trouble at all you'd be as well off as anyone could be. in other words, they're never useless and that's a comfort when it feels like most people only multiply their problems (and i actively try to avoid being caught in their bullshit) whereas LIEs are one of the few types who consistently reduce/solve problems, which really does seem to me like mana from heaven

it boils down to "creates drama" vs "creates solutions" in EIE v LIE. for people so boring they legitimately consider suicide an exciting option (LSI), I could see how EIE is great, but since I have a capacity to feel meaning all by myself I much prefer the company of LIE

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Yesterday I was talking to an EIE, first of all i notice how loud they are, which is useless since I was standing close to her, it was a waste of energy since everything I asked her about she answered something else! Like I would ask her about history and she would start talking about her neighbor and some "stupid decision" or judge people's appearance in their face! like what is this thing you are wearing? what have you done to your hair? why have you gained weight? and I had asked her about history of teaching foreign languages since she did have some information.
I just nod and "smile" and go away. EIEs don't bully me as much as they bully others.

Btw I don't think of myself as useful and I think I create many problems in the ethics area instead of solving them. I misunderstand people's intentions and don't pay enough attention to it. But I know what you mean by "avoid bullshit" but LIE's bullshit emotions are still bullshit :D

you just need to wait for the EIE to end their performance, when you need them

I don't think I've ever met a female LIE so I wouldn't know about their ethical troubles. my LIE friend I could just tell to suck it up, not that he's ever put me in a position to do so, and I know he would

if anything, he's the type where I see him "sucking up" shit he really shouldn't have to and I want to tell him "this is bullshit" or "its not your fault" etc

but im not saying LIEs are perfect, sometimes I find them vulgar in an unamusing way, but as far as sins go that's not so bad

Yeah @Zero timing the EIE for the right moment is probably good, that's why you need some creative :Se: to mobilize them
That applies even more to IEI who could upset a LIE twice as much so you need a Beta ST as a mediator.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by isptn

I agree with Zero - be concise. If the LIE asks you a specific question, answer only that question, don't give them any more information in hopes you'll get some extra credit, doesn't work that way. People always try to do that, they are always answering simple questions with extra information that to an LIE can just feel like wasting time. Sometimes I'll ask a question expecting a simple "yes" or "no" answer, I'll receive it, thank them and start walking away, then realize they are still talking and adding extra details that I didn't ask for that aren't useful to me. Then there are some people who start with the details and make me hunt for the answer hidden somewhere in their response.

There's actually a communication style used by health professionals called SBAR (Situation, Background, Assessment, Recommendation), created for the purpose of facilitating prompt and efficient communication. If you're expected to give a lot of information, having some kind of structure like that can be helpful for organizing your thoughts and communicating concisely. You might be able to either use that or create an adaptation of it that fits the situation.

Whenever possible, you should 1) favor short and to the point responses, and 2) favor steps/actions/situations over explanations of how things work. LIEs are more concerned with what the situation is and what needs to be done, and don't really care for explanations of how things work.

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Thanks :) That's something I can work with.

I do think being short and to the point in written communication is the way to go, otherwise he may think of you as long winded and unfocussed.

However, if you prefer quality work over quantity, you shouldn´t change your preferences just because a boss has a different opinion. Decently mature LIEs should understand how a qualitative approach is just as good as their do-it-fast mentality - explain this to him.

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Originally Posted by Bertrand

I don't think I've ever met a female LIE so I wouldn't know about their ethical troubles. my LIE friend I could just tell to suck it up, not that he's ever put me in a position to do so, and I know he would

if anything, he's the type where I see him "sucking up" shit he really shouldn't have to and I want to tell him "this is bullshit" or "its not your fault" etc

but im not saying LIEs are perfect, sometimes I find them vulgar in an unamusing way, but as far as sins go that's not so bad

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What I mean by ethical problems is similar to what has been written in Stratiyevsky's LIE ESI duality description. "LIE in the maze of relations" and such.
What do you mean by vulgar in an unamusing way? :D

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Originally Posted by Zero

What I mean by ethical problems is similar to what has been written in Stratiyevsky's LIE ESI duality description. "LIE in the maze of relations" and such.
What do you mean by vulgar in an unamusing way? :D

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yeah I get that, I just know nothing about it; since the LIEs I do know seem to keep it to themselves and outwardly don't suffer--and ethical types do often have drama just as bad or worse, or so it seems. so it seems to me LIE is not that bad off, although I'm sure a lot of that is just perception. It does seem funny to me the implication that ethicals may not suffer in the same "maze of ethical relations"--maybe they don't feel the same sense of "lostness" but outwardly they seem just as caught up in conflict and pain as any other person so it feels like it isn't much of an advantage. I'd even go so far as to say many logicals seem to have things sorted out better and more to their liking than many ethicals even in regards to what supposedly is the ethical wheelhouse. again, perhaps I'm just not seeing everything. I don't feel lost in ethics, but I do worry sometimes about the Te consequences I'm bringing down on myself by doing the "right thing"--mainly because I don't trust people to understand or to rise above their petty personal ambitions and the willingness to do anything to achieve them. I feel like its the flip side of Fi bewilderment which would be a kind of Te anxiety about Fi choices, whereas I imagine LIE suffers more from Fi anxiety about Te choices, etc etc

I think LIE has a tendency to miscalculate how some of their jokes will be received or even the ethical implications of what they're saying, so they come off as gross, not just in your standard way, but sometimes in an "ethical" way, like it may not be Si gross but they can definitely be Fi gross sometimes

sometimes LIEs I really like will say stuff I'm just like "ugh man, why..?" and theyll have a big shit eating grin about it. its probably funny to someone. most the time they're legit funny and not gross though, so I don't want to give anyone a complex

Wow your advice works :lol:

LIE boss: So how have your first two days been so far?
me: good.
- case closed -

Minimal talk. It's the best.


P.S. further advice will be appreaciated. *Looks at someone who should feel addressed now* :halo:

Fantastic socionics solved an IRL problem, yaaaassss it works

Lol, please tell him briefly what's wrong too, just so that he knows.

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Originally Posted by Cosmic Teapot

Wow your advice works :lol:

LIE boss: So how have your first two days been so far?
me: good.
- case closed -

Minimal talk. It's the best.


P.S. further advice will be appreaciated. *Looks at someone who should feel addressed now* :halo:

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Me? :D
Glad it helped
I can help more for sure but I don't exactly know what you have on your mind or other problems that you face with LIEs. Would be helpful if I knew your type for sure ;)

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Originally Posted by Zero

Me? :D
Glad it helped
I can help more for sure but I don't exactly know what you have on your mind or other problems that you face with LIEs. Would be helpful if I knew your type for sure ;)

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Not explicitly you :oops: - and it doesn't matter anymore .I always appreciate your counsil!
I will have more questions eventually and it would be great if you can help me with them :)

I don't know my type for sure hence the backstory in my first post. I hoped it could provide some further information on why our communication did not work so well. :shrug:

@Cosmic Teapot
My boss is also LIE.
What's your type?

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Originally Posted by Slugabed

@Cosmic Teapot
My boss is also LIE.
What's your type?

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I don't know. An ST type, but definitely not LSE.
How do you get along with your boss?

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Originally Posted by sorrowsofyoungwerther

LIEs in my experience don't like anything "weird" or quirky or over the top Ne ish.

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Now that you mention it...yes you're right. "Weird" and quirky is not their territory.
Cunning, exaggerated emotions and funny insults to provoke laughter neither. Which overall rules out 80% of my humor. :pompom:

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Originally Posted by Slugabed

@Cosmic Teapot
My boss is also LIE.
What's your type?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cosmic Teapot

I don't know. An ST type, but definitely not LSE.
How do you get along with your boss?

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Lol. @Cosmic Teapot, both you and @Slugabed vibe so much like my SLI-Te e5 ex, that I tend to confuse you.

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Originally Posted by Adam Strange

Lol. @Cosmic Teapot, both you and @Slugabed vibe so much like my SLI-Te e5 ex, that I tend to confuse you.

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So it's settled. I'm SLI. Ok :purr:

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Originally Posted by Cosmic Teapot

Cunning, exaggerated emotions and funny insults to provoke laughter neither. Which overall rules out 80% of my humor. :pompom:

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Maybe not at work but actually this is exactly my type of humor.

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Originally Posted by Cosmic Teapot

So it's settled. I'm SLI. Ok :purr:

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/dramatically rolls into your field of vision with as much weirdness as possible/

http://pa1.narvii.com/6349/57750367e...ad96a87_hq.gif
Heeee~llo lady what's up, you like? :hello: ;) :yup: :crispy: :oops::hyper::cool: :thumbsup: Sorry for the excessive dust :/

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Originally Posted by FDG

Maybe not at work but actually this is exactly my type of humor.

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Woah yes definitely not at work. :lol:
The LIE's I know and me never got to the part where we could make jokes without thinking that we could accidentally insult each other. There were good times, no doubt, but a bit of awkwardness and misunderstanding was always there.
I'll keep your post in mind :) Next time when I meet a LIE (not work related) I'll be smarter.

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Originally Posted by Chae

/dramatically rolls into your field of vision with as much weirdness as possible/

http://pa1.narvii.com/6349/57750367e...ad96a87_hq.gif
Heeee~llo lady what's up, you like? :hello: ;) :yup: :crispy: :oops::hyper::cool: :thumbsup: Sorry for the excessive dust :/

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Watched your gif like 30 times. Makes me smile...like what the hell you awesome weirdo. Who does that :lol:
Better dust than a ton of glitter.

@ Slugabed
First of all: thank you your post reads like a long lost SLI-LIE supervisor relationship description by Stratiyevskaya - by which I mean detailed, useful and I'll reread it a few times. What you described is very similar to my experience.

I doubt that I'm LSI. You point out some significant objections against SLI but I'm good friends with people of both types and I'm more similar to the SLI. Although similar from afar, when it comes to our methods the LSI and I are very different. What differentiates us the most is how we deal with Ne. I embrace new possibilities while he is unsure or rejects new plans for reasons that are unimportant in my view.

I'm also not a fan of micromanagement. However, details are ungodly important when it comes to learning multiple new skills at the same time. I want to do quality work but without learning those details first I am (and was) lost. Planning is a necessity to attain clarity. Even if it's only a feeling of clarity. Happy go lucky can only end in a catastrophe in my work environment and meticulous planning is not only important for me (to stay in control of the productions process) but also for the people who work with me.

I'm a bit baffled with the word spontaneous though. If something speaks against common sense and will bring no good I won't do it. But if it the time is right and some lucky stuff happens I will say yes to any new experience in a heartbeat.

E1 fits best for many reasons.
Tests are useless for me. I've read most descriptions a dozen times to understand myself and the people around me, so the tests always give me type that I think I am at the moment. I considered LSI for a few weeks and the tests came out accordingly. But the Stratiyevskaya EIE-LSI description = Ugh! Easily the least appealing.
Considering intertype relations SLI works best.

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Originally Posted by Zero

The thing about ESI translation is ESI- LIE dyad has a very "us" "our friends" attitude and they wanna know if you are an "us" or "them". Also I read in LIE description "never does a person of this type say explain this to me, they say give me the facts and tell me what needs to be done" which is exactly true. When someone explains things to me I often automatically feel that they want me to see it their way, while I want to figure it out my way, do it by myself. Tell me what needs to be done, what has been done, but not how to do it, or how you did it (specially in detail).

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The "how to do it" in detail, you see that as Ti? Si?

Quote:

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I think overall LIEs seem much scarier than they really are. I have been told by my friends that at first they thought I was a highly selective straight forwards arrogant asshole but then when they get closer they see that they were wrong. I can be easy to hang out with and don't judge people whom I respect, since I know the person has put effort in winning my respect.

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I don't find them scary. Pseudoaggressor only, a victim type in actuality. :lol:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zero

Yes, good point. the "how" and "why" is basically Ti and the LIE doesn't care about it unless he directly asks about it.
for example the way LII absorbs information about programming is like a waste of time for me. I respect that the want to know, but can't follow the same attitude myself.

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Would seem like a waste of time only until you realize you need the deeper understanding to solve certain programming issues quickly lol. I used to work with an LIE and I would run circles around him whenever dealing with certain issues requiring that deeper understanding.

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Originally Posted by Bertrand

my mom is EIE and I feel like she absolutely cannot get a story out. it never ends. never gets to the point. it basically just wastes time without ever reaching a conclusion or saying anything meaningful along the way. it feels like pure white noise and could easily be summed up in like 2 seconds based on what real content there is to it

it gets to the point where, like you said, I just give up. it feels like they want to prattle on for its own sake so I just let them, since apparently that's the true point of it all and my job is simply to be "the audience" not actually derive any real usable information. I forget sometimes to her conversation has no point, as in conveying factual information or practical insight, rather emoting empty solipsistic Ni viewpoints is the point

i forget that to me conversation entails an exchange that needs to merit the time spent listening (i.e.: not be a waste of time), whereas for them the point is to make a unilateral performance which the rest of us should feel blessed for having been in the mere presence of, because its I guess conveying Fe + Ni which for some people is apparently like mana from heaven

also I never thought LIEs were scary, but rather awesome to have around because it meant if you ran into any sort of trouble at all you'd be as well off as anyone could be. in other words, they're never useless and that's a comfort when it feels like most people only multiply their problems (and i actively try to avoid being caught in their bullshit) whereas LIEs are one of the few types who consistently reduce/solve problems, which really does seem to me like mana from heaven

it boils down to "creates drama" vs "creates solutions" in EIE v LIE. for people so boring they legitimately consider suicide an exciting option (LSI), I could see how EIE is great, but since I have a capacity to feel meaning all by myself I much prefer the company of LIE

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Lol this opinion you have of LSI/EIE... I actually find it funny, not offensive, the way you put it. XD

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Originally Posted by Myst

The "how to do it" in detail, you see that as Ti? Si?



I don't find them scary. Pseudoaggressor only, a victim type in actuality. :lol:



Would seem like a waste of time only until you realize you need the deeper understanding to solve certain programming issues quickly lol. I used to work with an LIE and I would run circles around him whenever dealing with certain issues requiring that deeper understanding.




Lol this opinion you have of LSI/EIE... I actually find it funny, not offensive, the way you put it. XD

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Yes good point, what I meant by why and how, now I see is actually more Si rather than Ti. And if the deeper understanding is needed for work then of course I will try my best to learn and know all the material, but LIIs and ILEs I see they solve puzzles and code for fun, which is not for me.
You sound kind of condescending. What Bertrand said makes alots of sense to me

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Originally Posted by Cosmic Teapot

Woah yes definitely not at work. :lol:
The LIE's I know and me never got to the part where we could make jokes without thinking that we could accidentally insult each other. There were good times, no doubt, but a bit of awkwardness and misunderstanding was always there.
I'll keep your post in mind :) Next time when I meet a LIE (not work related) I'll be smarter.

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I have some SLI friends, usually I meet them when we do sports together, cycling mtb climbing seem to attract lots of them. Sure they're better at anything involving S functions but I don't even feel a lot of supervision from them. ILIs can be worse with their constant grumbling. SLIs are also vortical-synergistic thinkers so we can often agree on many general principles about life. However their daily lives and social groups are completely different from mine.

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Originally Posted by Zero

Yes good point, what I meant by why and how, now I see is actually more Si rather than Ti. And if the deeper understanding is needed for work then of course I will try my best to learn and know all the material, but LIIs and ILEs I see they solve puzzles and code for fun, which is not for me.
You sound kind of condescending. What Bertrand said makes alots of sense to me

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I thought the same Si vs Ti. I only describe how to do something in detail if someone asks me to (but then it's easy to do).

I don't solve puzzles/code for fun, that might be the Ti with Ne.

I was not intending to be condescending, what felt like that to you? If I seemed condescending to you then what on earth was Bertrand's stuff? Something even worse... But I tried to take it as a joke instead of getting annoyed. Now if that was condescending to you that I found it funny, not my problem.

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Originally Posted by Myst

I thought the same Si vs Ti. I only describe how to do something in detail if someone asks me to (but then it's easy to do).

I don't solve puzzles/code for fun, that might be the Ti with Ne.

I was not intending to be condescending, what felt like that to you? If I seemed condescending to you then what on earth was Bertrand's stuff? Something even worse... But I tried to take it as a joke instead of getting annoyed. Now if that was condescending to you that I found it funny, not my problem.

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I meant a bit condescending overall, with lol and what you said about victim-aggressor. That is just a sexual role. My LIE professor whom I work with seems scary to many people because he is very serious about work and doesn't accept excuses etc. But once you know him it is clear that he is actually a good guy and not scary. My experience with beta quadra has been similar to his, so that is why it makes sense to me

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Originally Posted by Zero

I meant a bit condescending overall, with lol and what you said about victim-aggressor. That is just a sexual role. My LIE professor whom I work with seems scary to many people because he is very serious about work and doesn't accept excuses etc. But once you know him it is clear that he is actually a good guy and not scary. My experience with beta quadra has been similar to his, so that is why it makes sense to me

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Again, if that was condescending then Bertrand's stuff was way more condescending even tho' he didn't use emoticons.

The Victim stuff, think it goes a bit beyond just it being a sexual role. That's how I see it from an Se pov. It absolutely was not meant to be condescending, I find it attractive.

@Cosmic Teapot
Found some info that would definitely prevent conflict between me and my SLI sister:

The ENTj also likes to play the "stand up comedian". He can make himself look a lot more stupid than he really is, just to amuse people. Sometimes this gets him in trouble because he behaves in inappropriate ways just to be funny. As an example, he has a habit of making humor with a double meaning (often geared towards sex), which, coupled with his disdain for social conventions, often makes him appear as a lot ruder than he really is. The ENTj isn't always aware of how he comes off to others, so excuse him if he seems a little crude sometimes.

The ENTj is, deep inside, a romantic (although he will forcefully deny this). He believes in love in a nearly childish way: pure and idealistic. He rarely lets people know about it, but he is rather a sensitive person inside. When he falls in love with someone it can take incredible proportions. He can idealize the other person and put them on a pedestal. The ENTj hides this softness behind a big psychological fortress that makes him look tougher than he really is. Take the time to get to know an ENTj. Once you're in his close circle, you're in for life.
He has a tendency to get into heated debates and arguments. The ENTj is invigorated and thrilled by these. He rarely has hostile feelings against people, though. The ENTj is neutral towards most people. He has no desire to hurt others. The ENTj will rarely be envious or jealous of others.
Indeed, he came come off as intimidating sometimes and willing to dominate others (usually when he fears he's going to get controlled).
The ENTj is not passive-aggressive. He confronts people when something is wrong, and then often doesn't hold a grudge.
Don't ever take a debate personally with an ENTj. Don't get hurt by his logic and then try to hurt him in return (when he wasn't intending to do any harm in the first place). Don't try to control, manipulate or dupe him. Because once he finds out, he will try to get even with you by all means.
It has been wrongly assumed that the ENTj is necessarily a controlling and bossy individual. In reality, he doesn't really care about bossing people around for it's own sake. What he's interested in is getting things done in the most efficient way.
However, an ENTj, contrary to a lot of types, will not seek positions of power for power, but simply because he wants to have the freedom of implementing the best possible decisions. He fundamentally loves independence.
The ENTj may appear quite blunt and direct because he has no patience with superficialities. He likes to get straight to the point. This isn't intended to be mean. It's just a way for him to save time and "move on" more quickly. He is not afraid of speaking the truth about things openly. He is a very straightforward person. What you see is what you get. The ENTj tells people in front what he thinks of them. He is not the type to gossip endlessly in the back of others. He prefers to act upon a situation and speak up to the person in an effort to change things.
The ENTj can talk a lot about subjects in which he is interested in, but remain very silent in any topic he finds slightly boring (which includes most topics in small talk). When he's into something, he can get very passionate and start gesticulating energetically. He may speak "with his hands" a lot.
The ENTj works very fast. He loves to be able to efficiently execute tasks
The difference with other NT's is that once the ENTj has found something new, he wants to shout it to the rest of the people in the world and convince them that they were wrong. This makes the ENTj look like a Galileo trying to tell people that the earth is round. Few people like to have their beliefs challenged this way and so the ENTj can sometimes appear as pretentious. Fortunately, this attitude is also what makes him a potential leader.
Indeed, he is so eager about the future that he cannot seem to be able to let the present unfold normally.

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Originally Posted by Myst

The Victim stuff, think it goes a bit beyond just it being a sexual role. That's how I see it from an Se pov. It absolutely was not meant to be condescending, I find it attractive.

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Apparently it does actually. But I guess I just don't like the term "victim" :8*

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Originally Posted by Zero

Apparently it does actually. But I guess I just don't like the term "victim" :8*

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I think LIE's have a hard time using force in the way that Se-doms do. This is good in the sense that we are more diplomatic, and bad in the sense that we usually can't "force" people to do things by dint of personality.

Instead, I think LIE's tend to use "consequences", along the lines of "If you don't want to do it, you don't have to. But if you don't, then this will happen."

I've used this approach myself in various guises.

When I was Production Manager for a machine tool company, I told a guy to wash the floor (using a machine) and blow all the dirt out the bay doors. He said, "I don't think I can do that."
I thought WTF? We're not a Union shop. I don't have time for this.
I told him he didn't have to do it, but if he didn't, he might as well go home, because I didn't have any other work for him.

Now, I use that approach with business contracts, but it is basically the same approach.

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Originally Posted by Adam Strange

I think LIE's have a hard time using force in the way that Se-doms do. This is good in the sense that we are more diplomatic, and bad in the sense that we usually can't "force" people to do things by dint of personality.

Instead, I think LIE's tend to use "consequences", along the lines of "If you don't want to do it, you don't have to. But if you don't, then this will happen."

I've used this approach myself in various guises.

When I was Production Manager for a machine tool company, I told a guy to wash the floor (using a machine) and blow all the dirt out the bay doors. He said, "I don't think I can do that."
I thought WTF? We're not a Union shop. I don't have time for this.
I told him he didn't have to do it, but if he didn't, he might as well go home, because I didn't have any other work for him.

Now, I use that approach with business contracts, but it is basically the same approach.

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Yes, one has to be diplomatic in order to inspire ESIs. Sometimes they run away from facing new possibilities. Using too much Se doesn't work for them. You need to give them lots and lots of information and stratgically over the course of time stimulate that part of their brain you know can be stimulated till they finally show some reaction .
Only an Ni valuing type can see how you got here from what I said :D

The LIE OP describes is sounding very brief to me , maybe he's really really Te sub in which case i'm a bit surprised there'd be such communication problems since you'd be almost mirrors (taking OP's type for granted). Either way, you don't need to cater to someone so much as you describe, maybe throw a bit of Si in the mix and see what comes up might shake things up (it's sounding like he(?)'s stuck or something)

Most SLI seem to be doers more than communicators; their perception of things has a very physical nature but they don't seem to link facts together very well. They're also not terrific at up-front planning although they can produce much while working by the seat of their pants; all they seem to need is an objective. Now, LIE can be excellent communicators and have grandiose, elaborate plans but be rather weak on the specific objectives that an SLI would need. It can sometimes be difficult to get LIE to focus on reality; they tend to have the handle-it,-handle-it-or-else approach. You have to tell the LIE what you need to do your job and nothing more; the onus is really on the boss to provide adequate resources and communicate with staff. However, I've known some LIE that have gotten rid of key people simply because they weren't marching to their beat, and the organizations suffered tremendously. If you can, it may be better to communicate through email but have correspondence vetted by someone (perhaps an IEE or LII) until you get the hang of what your boss wants in addition to what he really needs.


a.k.a. I/O