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I guess the title is clear enough, I am doing a revisit of my understanding of socionics and tomorrow I am planning to focus on Fe & Fi so I thought it would be interesting to see how does Fe/Fi valuing types see each others irl?
also, you can discuss any misunderstanding of them (for example Fe vs so-first)
have nice dreams :sleep:
come on are you afraid of hurting each others feelings?
I am going to limit my example to irl and only people I feel confident are Fi leads. So there is no reason for anyone to feel hurt as I am not specifically attributing this to any self typed Fi egos here.
I have posted before about how I used to see Fi leads and how my perceptions have changed since joining this forum. Actually, I am not afraid to hurt anyone's feelings since I no longer see Fi lead (or valuers) as just morality preaching, judgmental, grudge holders that don't care if they ruin the mood for everyone if they are hurting. They can't hide their feelings as well because it shows on their face. I used to see them like that but now I understand the differences and some of it enneagram related. I am not going to go into that though.
I imagine my feelings were biased before because I can be the same as them but for me it usually passes quickly and I do not value Fi in that way. This was the root of some issues I had with my EII sister (to a lesser extent my ESI friend). Her feelings often felt like they were set in stone and she could even write off long time family friends or certain family members if they crossed her in a way that violated her beliefs in right and wrong. If she got to the point of disliking someone it was harder for her to shift out of it and like them again. I could do the same but it took me a lot longer to get to the point of cutting someone off. I was also quicker to forgive and like them again (sometimes within moments of feeling dislike) than she was but when she did forgive, it was genuine and it showed by the way she treated them once they were forgiven. I guess I used to try and push her to let stuff go that I had already gotten over and when she wouldn't I just thought she was too stubborn to see the other person's side of things. I can be stubborn too but mine usually involves completely different issues. Not so much issues of an ethical/moral variety.
From her side, she probably saw me as more fickle and probably thought my bonds with others were too shallow, which was definitely not the case. She would get upset with me for not being mad at the same people she was mad at or not liking someone she liked because I felt no connection to them like she did. Moreso when we were younger.
She actively utilized self help books and seminars to deal with her issues and tried to get me to do the same. I preferred therapy and she thinks a lot of them are quacks which is funny because I think some of the self help gurus she chose were too shallow. Perception... I think we both projected a lot. She mainly thought I had things I had not dealt with that still affected me. No matter how much I tried to tell her I was over something she would not believe me and would very gently try to get me to talk about stuff I didn't want to. The more gentle she was with me the more irritated I would start to feel with her. I think it was because she could not let things go herself so assumed I was in the same state as her when I wasn't.
I will ask her how she perceives me now and how she perceived me a few years ago. I am not going to tell her it is socionics though. :p
Fi to Fe- Fake
Fe to Fi- Selfish
When it actually comes down to the particular aspect of "who with whom" of Fi users, the information does not strike a chord with me often because I neglect it :confused2:
I don't see it as valuable information and labelled it gossip in the past, although I can see its appeal in terms of objective influence now that I know more about Socionics :yup: That's why I respect Gamma SFs who use Fi combined with Se. Delta Fi with Ne is rather open-ended, not concerned with Ni closure. It's harder to understand and deal with that. Its aristocracy excludes people who are not already involved and known. For instance, when I am with my IEE friend, I suddenly feel ostracized when he starts talking to other Delta members because I am not actively `recruited´ to their conversation. Everything is great when we're two by two but the message I get in these situations is: "You're a nobody here - keep trying to act like you know us since day one." It's hilarious because it makes me realize how I make others feel like they are very close to me by default :lol: I see it like this: They just need time and several stages to warm up in their relations, while I do it right away without boundaries and requirements. I prefer to create instant camaraderie and a feeling of being welcome and appreciated instead. No insider stuff, especially not in the form of:
Them: "Hi! Did you know what Jack Doodle and Joe Drabble did?".
Me: "Who are Jack and Joe!!? And why are they relevant right now? How did we arrive at this topic? Is it a fun story?"
Them: "No it's just an account of what's going on in their lives. Jack and Joe are friends with Jane and Jared btw. Jane dates Jack. Jack tried to cheat on her with Jenny. But Jenny has a crush on Jared. So Jared went out with Joe. That means Joe and Jared are no longer friends. Also I am going out with Jenny these days."
Me: "I see, okay...? Interesting...! Do I really have to know that? Those are some cool names right there though hahaa!! Doodle and Drabble, wow!! Fabulous! And it means that Jared and Joe are gay woohoo LGBT pride, fantastic #kings!!" (The desired answer would've been: "Ahh, I met with Jack and Jenny recently, Jack said to me that Jane likes Joe..." etc.)
Them: "Yeah..."
Both approaches are legit, I simply prefer to show my stance - not how I am part of the constellation - and see how they react to my level of distance or proximity, and I expect input to be logically comprehensive so I can show my liking. Saying that Jack and Joe caused some chaos in the community would've been enough :biggrin: I would've asked about whether they need advice, and then what specifics there are, then point out who has to act in what way to trigger this and that to create harmony.
To elaborate my reasoning about the "who with whom" a little more, I view it as something behind the back of another, avoiding the direct exchange. Especially just for the sake of it, gossip generally seems like the weird way to go about social interaction. The complexity of social webs is hard to grasp because I see them in dynamic terms, hard to pin down. I get the idea of "this person is on this person's side" and group belonging because I'm aristocratic but I can't spot bonds instinctually. All I see is: Person A openly shows this attitude toward person B (through appreciation, disgust, compassion, enthusiasm etc). Fi is far too subtle and unspoken for me, and too chained to others. I see that their bonds can make them happy but in my case, I merely want to enjoy my encounters, no matter the degree of acquaintance and a clear understanding of why Jack and Joe need to be talked about XD
Another example from my shopping trip early this month, showing how I overlook Fi because of Fe as I determine attitudes.
A guy and a gal were standing in the queue in front of me. I could not determine whether they were a couple or not, all I assessed was that the guy was treating the girl in a rude way. My analytical brain automatically went: "Body language of disrespect, coldness and contempt, speaks condescendingly, gives orders without asking what she wants" and so on. So I assumed an abusive boyfriend (or brother?) scenario based on the ad-hoc clues I observed. They COULD be on good terms and very close, friendly in other contexts but the vibe right then was really bad and I predicted nothing good for them, actually wanting to warn the girl but that seemed not appropriate and patronizing, getting ahead of myself without knowing the full extent of their disposition :thinking:
--> Conclusion: I used Fe (situation reading) first, then Ni (prediction, archetype assignment) and Ne (what could be, alternatives). I ignored Fi because I was busy reading them outwardly. If I had used Fi back then, I would've said how I related to the two of them, but I didn't care much about that, they were just fellow customers.
This is roughly correct I think (if you're only talking about the ethics part).Quote:
Originally Posted by peteronfireee
you broke my heartQuote:
Originally Posted by Kimumu
so you think Fi-users generally have harder time letting goQuote:
Originally Posted by Aylen
why not?Quote:
I am not going to tell her it is socionics though. :p
one question at a time pleaseQuote:
Originally Posted by Chae
really? I thought Fe-egos can spot bonds instinctually, is it because you're Fi-ignoring or is it the same for all Fe-valuers?Quote:
I can't spot bonds instinctually.
To OP: Fi seems weirdly distant to me though this is hard for me to notice by default. Fe just seems "normal".
Worse with Se or with Ne?Quote:
Originally Posted by Chae
Why would others have to feel like they are very close to you right away? Why is this even important to focus on? I focus more on the outside situation. Is this me not being focused on Ethics and relations by default?Quote:
It's hilarious because it makes me realize how I make others feel like they are very close to me by default :lol: I see it like this: They just need time and several stages to warm up in their relations, while I do it right away without boundaries and requirements. I prefer to create instant camaraderie and a feeling of being welcome and appreciated instead.
That is a weird interpretation there, the last part, no one would relate in any particular way to random customers in a shop. So this isn't specifically about valuing or not valuing Fi.Quote:
Conclusion: I used Fe (situation reading) first, then Ni (prediction, archetype assignment) and Ne (what could be, alternatives). I ignored Fi because I was busy reading them outwardly. If I had used Fi back then, I would've said how I related to the two of them, but I didn't care much about that, they were just fellow customers.
PS: Sorry, I think I still owe you a PM - I didn't completely forget about it :)
I think that they can... not saying all do. I am often more careful with Fi leads because of it. IEE usually talk about it, at least the ones I know will talk about it if they feel hurt usually in private. I think SEE are more likely to bring it out in the open too. I joke less with Fi leads than I do with Fe ego. I have made teasing remarks before that actually upset someone here and I was totally joking. I still wonder if they have bad feelings because of it so yeah I try to be careful but online I can't always be sure what I am dealing with. I think enneagram and other things factor in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Simo
I am not telling my sister so she doesn't get concerned that I am once again getting sucked into a psychological mindfuck. i just wanted a pure response. :content:
I have told her about it before though and had her take the tests and read the descriptions. We both already knew she was an Fi lead. It was a pleasant subject to discuss while both my sisters were visiting but they are more focused on other things in life. My EII sister has a stepson to raise so no time to spend hours on a theory that doesn't have more mainstream value, I suppose. She prefers things like, Caroline Myss, Deepak Chopra and Eckhart Tolle. She sends me books and I send her books on crazier ideas. :D
Edit: Incidentally, my sister mentioned to me this morning that she has let a lot of things go this past year. <3
:Fe: is sincerely insincere, seeking to just get everyone to just "get along" as it were and rather expert in doing so even if the :Fe: user isn't being "honest" as it were. Whereas :Fi: is so sincere it hurts and cares little for the world outside it. :Fi: will die on a hill with no regrets, knowing that it stood for what was right as far as it was concerned. Was that the right move? Maybe, maybe not, but the point remains. The :Fe: will seek a compromise, and the :Fi: will stand firm even under duress of torture. Which was the better course of action will, sadly, be an issue of hindsight which is also tragically always 20/20.
@Chae I thought a bit more about this and I wonder if it's about what you specifically meant by being close. Would you elaborate on this please. :)
I got a response from my EII sister this morning on how she sees me. Since she does not know this has anything to do with functions she gave me the pure response I was looking for. This is actually harder to share than I anticipated it to be. She knows I am sharing it though. I love my sister. :cry:
As I pointed out in the next sentences; I contrasted SeFi with NeFi saying that I respect the former and find it harder to deal with the latter :yup: It's not actually worse in a normative way, just more intricate to understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myst
It's THE most important thing to focus on! I always want to close the gap, to influence. It's important to focus on for me because I want our communication to be in a certain mood, to go a certain way, to establish/solve/etc something. My attitude will be 100% clear outwardly. Also, I want to know more about the person. And yes sure, I think so :thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Myst
No one is a generalization, ask lungs and she will give you a complete rundown of that :lol: Again - perspective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myst
Are you sure you're not a SLE? Your perception of Fi seems impeded by Fe set as standard ("normal"), your usual mode is busy with the outside situation, and you literally said how your focus is not on ethics of relations at all XD And! Complete rejection of relating to random people --> low in Fi, you stated it in your first sentence as well. Fi lead would figure out how they relate to /any/ person there is. Short analysis of mini material. What do you think?
And yes please :love::love:
Hm... :thinking: Agreeing with the inside/outside + self-righteous/collective divide. However, sincerity is a question of motive. You emphasize the tricky side of Fe as betrayal or a lie, in fact it can broadcast something from the inside out that is right - for everybody, which is the situational benefit. There's nothing dishonest about broadcasting rightness. Also, Fe is able not to crack under pressure because of its capacity for handling extreme highs and lows (yet not principles, true - unless Ti influences it) psychologically. This is more of a Se matter anyway, your DS is strong :lol: Fe can seek compromise or create an upheaval as well when it is convinced in its belief. It's not an issue of hindsight either - each course is right, as everything unfolds the way it should. That way, there is nothing grave to worry about :zen:Quote:
Originally Posted by End
No. Attuned to providing my dual with enough fun stuff to analyze :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Simo
Nope again XD Fe is the state of persons as perceivable by everyone involved and not involved. Fi is the state between persons as perceivable by the involved people, esp oneself. And you are correct, it's pronounced in my specific case of course! That's exactly why I said that I neglect Fi. I can spot their bond instantly by subtle gestures that they show, but that dulls out my instinct of knowing how exactly they are interrelated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Simo
yeah they do & will never forgive you as long as they live, but I don't remember seeing you making remarks that can upset anyone, are you sure they are not being hypersensitive?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aylen
XDQuote:
I am not telling my sister so she doesn't get concerned that I am once again getting sucked into a psychological mindfuck.
good for herQuote:
Edit: Incidentally, my sister mentioned to me this morning that she has let a lot of things go this past year. <3
This has a nice ring to itQuote:
Originally Posted by End
a compromise is better than torture IMOQuote:
The :Fe: will seek a compromise, and the :Fi: will stand firm even under duress of torture.
don't mean to be offensive but I didn't see any fun stuff to analyze in your questionsQuote:
Originally Posted by Chae
come on admit it you hate me don't you?Quote:
Nope again XD
so when I misinterpret a girl friendly attitude as she likes me then find out she was just being nice, does that mean I have weak Fi (failing to perceive the bond between us)?Quote:
Fe is the state of persons as perceivable by everyone involved and not involved. Fi is the state between persons as perceivable by the involved people, esp oneself.
You are so dramatic sometimes. :lol: I don't think Fi lead is the type that would stand firm under torture or would die on a hill with no regrets. I see them a bit more delicate and rational than that.Quote:
Originally Posted by End
I would change the word "compromise" to "cooperate" because cooperation tends to aim for win/win and "compromise" often requires a sacrifice. That might just be a me thing though.
Even when I don't agree with you, I END up rooting for you to get what you want in the end. <3
Please fully offend me so I get what you're up to though. And well, you're under no obligation to play my analytical counterpart on a socionics forum. Your choice, I offer the opportunity. Also... it was just a fun dialogue, how come you're impacted by that so much? :/Quote:
Originally Posted by Simo
You already think you're hated when someone disagrees with you in a discussion? Your ego is either fragile or you're very hilarious (try to steer it toward the latter in your reply, otherwise you'll crash and burn and we don't want nor need that).Quote:
Originally Posted by Simo
It means that you were raised into a fully functioning heterosexual :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Simo
http://31.media.tumblr.com/0f45c2b28...zi8mo3_500.gif
My experiences with, and thoughts on Fi valuing types and their use of both Fi and Fe.
That was so heartfelt <3 She's awesome.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aylen
I'd love toQuote:
Originally Posted by Chae
I was trying to image the dialogue and that part was hilarious < at least the way I imaged itQuote:
Also... it was just a fun dialogue, how come you're impacted by that so much? :/
not a chance, and btw last week I was discussing something with my mom & sister and I told them "you hurt my feelings" and both of them said "come on as if you have any" < apparently I am the worst actor everQuote:
You already think you're hated when someone disagrees with you in a discussion?
This is the first time I notice the "fire door keep shut" note on the door
Something about certain Fi ego types makes me want to intentionally offend them.
I think a lot of it boils down to how one another carries out the values with others in real life. They may have similar values but go about it differently. I think it depends on the situation that is bothering them as well. Context, how it was carried out, in alignment with their core values.
For me personally I get lost in my head and it takes me a while to filter out what I feel/think. I need a lot of time to think before I speak about how I really feel. I journal and listen to music until I get it together. Though simple gestures like placing a hand on my shoulder when I seem upset can help get me to open up. It all depends on context.
You're actually being cute now :oops: Hm... well - acting is a matter of persuasion. Try reverse psychology or something :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Simo
Same actually, are you a fellow Sherl fan? :wave:I need someone to wait w/ me because of the new season *^*
Try the ones with E1 influence for a challenge :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Told Ya
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chae
I grew up with both,nothing would surprise me about Fi at this point.:popcorn:
IME, the only real bad offenders are those with :Fi: or :Fe: in a weaker position (basically Logicals, but expressed differently between :Te: and :Ti: users). On a good day I can usually shrug off a glancing blast of :Ti:-ego hostility so long as it doesn't seriously threaten my safety. It only becomes a problem when the aggression becomes unanimous and puts serious limitations on what I'm able to do, or if I'm weakened and someone kicks me while I'm down.
I've known Super-Id :Fi: to be even worse than Super-Id :Fe:, though. Unhealthy ILIs are the most incorrigible cunts to ever draw breath, full stop. To even exist near them is to walk through a minefield. They view the entire world as an extension of their own intellectual space. They cannot stand the thought of their perceived ideal systems being compromised in reality, and so they will make a conscious effort to condemn and emasculate anyone who as ever voiced an opinion they cannot tolerate. God forbid you make the mistake of making one comment that offends their precious sensibilities, no matter whom it was directed at, they'll remember it, and they'll go out of their way to shit on you every time you come within close proximity. Stay as far away from them as you want, and they'll still find a way to make your paths cross to harass you again. They're like a cloud of gnats that you swat at and run from all day that won't just fucking DIE already.
This only applies to the unhealthiest ILIs. Healthy ILIs, for the most part, tend to leave me alone.
I hope you get what you want in life too, just so long as you don't want what the more extreme leftists want. I can get onboard with the kumbayah hippie future long term, but I sure as hell do NOT support killing off group X as the necessary sacrifice to achieve it like most of them seem to want to do (p.s. I happen to be in the group they are eager to sacrifice so full disclosure, I don't wanna die just so everyone else can live in a fantasy utopia and if that makes me a bad person than fuck it I'm the devil and proud of it).Quote:
Originally Posted by Aylen
Forgive me for being overly optimistic but I do think that, at the end of the day, we can all have our cake and eat it too if we'd only admit the truth that war is fundamentally stupid. Boiled down to its base, all war is is the desire for a group of men to rape another group of men's women. The history of warfare bears this out and it's so fucking stupid it hurts my mind. For instance, during the Sengoku Jidai the forces of Oda Nobunaga besieged a castle for 11 YEARS!!! 11 fucking years... of just waiting to rape every woman behind those walls when ya get right down to it...
I get why the Romans didn't give the Sabine women a choice, ya NEED women if ya want a future, but outside that unique instance there's no good reason to go out and kill other people to take their women as concubines. It's fucking dumb, there are better things to fight for, higher concepts to die for other than "muh dick" as it were.
Basically, I yearn for a world that is rational. Sadly, I also know that humans are fundamentally irrational. So I'm stuck in a paradox :(.
they have weak unvalued Ti so it is not surprising they want Te supported argumentQuote:
Originally Posted by Cassandra
personal computer? :lol:Quote:
I am mostly PC
I didn't expect this ranking, I thought it'd be:Quote:
So, putting my Ti HA to use, here is my personal ranking:
1. Creative Fi
2. Fi HA
3. Fi Seeking
4. Fi Lead
1. Fi Creative
2. Fi lead
3. Fi seeking
4. Fi HA
This is embarrassing, it is much easier to respond to an insultQuote:
Originally Posted by Chae
of course I amQuote:
Same actually, are you a fellow Sherl fan? :wave:I need someone to wait w/ me because of the new season *^*
It seems ILIs cause you nightmares :shock:Quote:
Originally Posted by Alioth
I think anyone who wanna die for everyone else is either crazy or an idiotQuote:
Originally Posted by End
Yeah, I know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Simo
It would be okay if they weren't low-key insulting at the same time.
Ha nah, I meant "politically correct". :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Simo
Why did you think it would be like that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Simo
I thought I made it rather clear that I have had the most issues with the Fi of Fi lead people...
The ranking was really just about which Fi I find the most to the least tolerable, or the least to the most problematic in personal interactions.
I guess when it comes to how Fi valuing types use Fe, my ranking would be like this:
1. Fi Creative / Fe Demonstrative
2. Fi Seeking / Fe Role
3. Fi lead / Fe Ignoring
4. Fi HA / Fe PoLR
I will speak for myself since I did call you out a couple of days ago. What you are doing here is exactly that passive aggressive thing you described above. You type close to all self-typed beta as ESI based on your own likes and dislikes. When people ask questions you hide behind arguments that they demand to back your opinion up with Te sources and all you do is Ti-ing. Everything can not be explained with socionics or sources, there are things which are not type related. But this is apparently explained by our Ni HA. Or by being a 4. Or by something else. Or by just being haters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassandra
Seriously, I mention your inconsistency, you say - later - it's Te seeking. I say you don't see a bigger picture, you say - still later - it's based on emotion and is little to no logic. Why don't you address anything directly when people "call you out"? Instead, you post snarky passive aggressive comments later on.
I wasn't just talking about you when I made this comment. It is something I have experienced with many Fi leads online. It has been a bit of a nuisance at times. I was just being honest when I wrote my take on it. I wanted to give a well-rounded view on what I deem to be my experiences with Fi valuing individuals (I did not only talk about Fi leads). I guess it does involve you on some level. I didn't want to "stab" you by writing this, I just wanted to voice my general frustrations, I guess. And an honest take on Fi. It is just my opinion and experience. You are free to say "it is wrong".Quote:
Originally Posted by Persephone
I don't say you are wrong. I am not advising to change your opinions. I am not trying to influence your experience. I am not criticising your mind as you said the other day. I just want to bring your attention to the following point : you do the exact same thing you accuse Fi valuers (in your book) of. So if there is something that bothers me, it's not your typings overall or your opinions or experience, they are yours and unique because it's merely part of your entity that I can't and don't want to influence. Now, being an ESI in your book does not "upset" me as you say. No it's actually the way you spin things upside down to your advantage. This is what I could eventually call by disrupting positive emotional atmosphere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassandra
What Cassandra calls "passive-aggressive" is not passive at all, it's just plain aggressive. And that she doesn't do, she is more passive. haha. She just got the word wrong I think.
I know but that came to my mind firstQuote:
Originally Posted by Cassandra
Yeah you made it very clear, that was my expectation of how IEIs would rank Fi users before reading your postQuote:
Why did you think it would be like that?
I thought I made it rather clear that I have had the most issues with the Fi of Fi lead people...
Let me guess -almost all people on this forum are Fi-valuing in your opinion? And there's close to zero Beta NF's around you irl or among celebrities? You mentioned having same problems and running away from other online communities before and not having any friends irl. Maybe it's you feeling alienated from the whole world and having problems coping and relating to people, not the whole world being Fi valuing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassandra
You could have pointed that without getting so worked up about itQuote:
Originally Posted by Persephone
what about your angry comments? don't you think they disrupt the emotional atmosphere?Quote:
No it's actually the way you spin things upside down to your advantage. This is what I could eventually call by disrupting positive emotional atmosphere.
Fe is also about dramatic emotion, not just being pleasant and polite. It's transmitting emotional state to others and being effected by others emotional state. The PC police is usually Delta NF ftr.
Seems like they are the ones who whip Betas in shape, because same. Were they high in self-pres/Sx-last as well? Hm... then, I recommend a contraflow person to experience the depth of human life as it is XDQuote:
Originally Posted by Told Ya
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simo
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...c5148a13db.jpgQuote:
IEIs naturally conceptualize the people around them in terms of the emotional energy that they give off, and the way that they interact with the mood and energy around them. They are often especially sensitive to how others around them react to their own energy.
IEIs are generally very sensitive to the emotional atmosphere around them. They are often good at recognizing and influencing the moods of others, and at communicating the depth of their feelings or experiences. They tend to be adept at reading the reactions that others have to them and are often quick to make use of emotional cues in interaction. They frequently feel a need to look after the mood of those around them, and characteristically seek to awaken or innerve others' emotional energy. They may exhibit a propensity for good-natured, friendly, lighthearted banter and try to promote good will and inclusiveness. On the other hand, IEIs can also direct their emotional influence through a mode of expression that limits their affable levity; they may take on a formal, toxic, serious, or even shock-jock emphasis as situations require.
IEIs may feel the need to express the nature of their inimitable mental landscape and insights, and may feel a greater calling to make a difference in the lives of others. This is often manifest by championing intellectual, moral, social, or personal causes. IEIs may feel strongly about these types of causes and some may expend considerable effort towards expressing their avidity towards them, even posing toxic criticism to those that do not share these deep moral callings. However, many other IEIs may lack the impulse or motivation to take this type of action at all.
The emotional energy of IEIs can sometimes appear restless, moody, or gregarious, but much of the time it is inwardly-focused and self-contained. IEIs are often highly introspective and often have a rich and vibrant array of emotional experiences, which they may dwell over and seek to display to others.
FTR, I don't think Perse is angry at all. It's just that some IEI here are a bit older and have way more experience to draw on. I mean if anything maybe she is just trying to help a sister out. hahah :P <-- I am so going to hell...
I can say with complete honesty that I feel she is a much better person than I will ever be. She is awesome, talented and compassionate. I feel humbled every time she shows me, me, through her eyes. I love my whole family so much. No matter how dysfunctional we may have been, or still are, I see them as perfect for me. I wouldn't change a thing about them. I didn't always feel like that though. It evolved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chae
Oh and when you responded to this, I read it again and finally cried. The first time I was just teary. I was kind of mean to her sometimes when we were kids because I was jealous. :cry: BUT, I was also protective of her because we were all we had for several years and I had to look out for her. <3
How does criticizing someone's logical reasoning and pointing out holes in their theories makes someone personally offended? That makes zero sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aylen
All ethical types are prone to being more subjectively emotional and more easilly hurt than logical types, duh. Being never emotionally hurt and offended is a sign of logical types, not Fe types :doh: What, if you say to an ESE she's ugly and her cooking sucks, she'll just remain cold-blooded and rational as an LII??
So for Cassandra claiming nothing offends her(which is bs anyway imo) to prove she's not Fi , that's actually unusual for IEI or any ethical type. I've also no idea where does the idea comes from Fe girls are nicer than Fi girls. If anything, they're cattier on the outside (because they're more actively trying to influence the emotional state of the person they're offending).
Fi people are more offended because of their their values and ethics close to their heart, not just any old thing. Disagreement, conflict and being annoyed by someone or their opinion are not Fi, my god :bashhead:
well at least her first post has some degree of anger or upsetQuote:
Originally Posted by Aylen
tbh, I don't get why people take things personally < maybe this is why many people think I don't have emotion, but it is just I try not to be emotionally attached to unnecessarily stuff
being older doesn't mean you can write aggressive postsQuote:
It's just that some IEI here are a bit older and have way more experience to draw on. I mean if anything maybe she is just trying to help a sister out. hahah :P <-- I am so going to hell...
Nooo, you misunderstand what I am saying. This has been brewing for months. If you were around more (you must have a life) you too would see the underlying tension that has been building. Wish I had the ability to make a flowchart of events that would satisfy your Te but I think you have pretty much formed an opinion here so it wouldn't matter. Let them work it out like adults. :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by Simo
I'm bored
edit: okay i dont know why it makes 2 spoilers
Fe valuing types are as judgemental, grudge-holding, taking things personal and easily offended as Fi valuers as obviously shown in this thread.
Bored again
It's my way to structure texts, I did not work it up in any particular way tbh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Simo
No actually I haven't been angry maybe sounded a bit dramatic in my way of expressing myself by trying to get understood.
Overall you are not aware of the underlying dynamics so I don't blame you for reacting of a sort.
For the rest you are now participating in our bloody pool of distruption, welcome :hello:
No particular aggressiveness was intended though:shrug: For taking things "personally", again you are not aware of the dynamics. I am lazy to track it down also don't want to drown into the negative. Maybe you could leave this between me and Cassandra after all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Simo
Because before being that or this, they are humans and like anyone else have feelings, whatever they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr inappropriate
At least this thread wakes the forum up from the lethargy which is pretty cool :popcorn:
I'll keep that in mind,not sure about the instincts but one thing I do know is that a perpetually triggered Fi ego is something else,especially when you live with them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chae
Ah all pepple habe feelings ... what a wildcard to have in hand in an discussion.
This thread is pretty funny, read somewhere fi types cant hide their emotions, show them in their face... When this is empasized for ESE in descriptions. People just assign the behaviour they dont like to the other party.
Lol. Sounds like a good reason to travel a lot on business.Quote:
Originally Posted by Told Ya
so I missed the interesting part :doh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Aylen
sureQuote:
Let them work it out like adults. :shrug:
It is my thread :cool: what would you expect?Quote:
Originally Posted by Persephone
But those two things are directly antithetical to each other. How does that work?Quote:
Originally Posted by darya
:cauldron:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr inappropriate
I said it and it is true for those I know well. I made the disclaimer of irl and also enneagram influenced. I was primarily talking about my EII sister. I was also talking about when they are triggered deeply by someone but maybe I should have clarified. I am sure she would agree that she can't hide her personal feelings when offended. My sister is going to leave before she plays nice with someone she feels is not a good person for whatever her reason. If she knows they will be attending the same event beforehand she probably would not attend though.
That was more in the past. She now makes an effort to resolve bad feelings and hold no grudges. She is an E9 sp/sx. I am leaning 469 the seeker for her again. She does not like her inner peace disrupted. She has changed a lot therefore so has my perception of Fi leads. I learned a lot here that helped me change that perspective. You didn't read the whole post I take it.
It may apply to ESE too. I can only say that because I have an ESE sister who shows everything on her face but her anger is never as strong as she would like people to think and for some reason she can't do bitch face at all. When she tries it just causes my EII sister and me to laugh which ends up making her laugh. My ESE sister could very well play nice with someone she didn't like to preserve the emotional atmosphere. She would talk about them behind their back too at the very same gathering. I don't fault her for that as she is not very confrontational and is so/sx 369.
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I have posted before about how I used to see Fi leads and how my perceptions have changed since joining this forum. Actually, I am not afraid to hurt anyone's feelings since I no longer see Fi lead (or valuers) as just morality preaching, judgmental, grudge holders that don't care if they ruin the mood for everyone if they are hurting. They can't hide their feelings as well because it shows on their face. I used to see them like that but now I understand the differences and some of it enneagram related. I am not going to go into that though.
Quote:
Extroverted Ethics (Fe, http://www.sociotype.com/images/im/Fe.gif)
EIIs can become expressive and very lively in groups for brief periods of time, but they always gravitate to deep, focused communication between two people or a small, close-knit group. They tend to shun wildness and prefer serious, more sensitive communication.
EIIs are usually very straightforward about their feelings in front of others; what you see from them is what you get. Even at a party where everyone is supposed to be happy, they still find it hard to conceal their true feelings when they are in a bad mood. This can create distaste among the rest who feel that the EII is not cooperating by contributing to the positive and boisterous mood. This tends to lead others who don't know the EII well to have a misconception that he/she is a grouchy person by nature.
This is really :Fe: :Si: vs. :Fi: :Se:.Quote:
Originally Posted by End
-:Fe: is about dramatic emotion, +:Fe: is about being pleasant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alioth
Types with -:Fe:: SEI, ILE, EIE, LSI, SEE, ILI, LSE, EII
Types with +:Fe:: ESE, LII, IEI, SLE, ESI, LIE, IEE, SLI
I bolded those types where their use of their "brand" of Fe would be the most obvious.
P.S: This +/- stuff is from DarkAngelFireWolf69.
So ESI is being pleasant and goofy, the same brand as IEI?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassandra
Not exactly, because they do not value it and it is Ignoring.Quote:
Originally Posted by darya
So when you have both types in the same room, IEIs will typically show +:Fe: more than the ESI, especially if it is a general social context where both people do not know the others too well.
ESI can be somewhat goofy like an IEI when they know someone really well and feel comfortable with that person (or several). Other than that, because of their :Fe: Ignoring (and being -:Fi: lead which is rather "critical"), they often are pretty "cold" initially.
Well yeah, I agree with what you said. That's why this layout doesn't make much sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassandra
Hm, I think it makes sense in the broader context.Quote:
Originally Posted by darya
Again, the functions will determine how exactly that "stuff" comes out.
So at the end of the day, ESIs do prefer +:Fe: over -:Fe: , and when they use :Fe:, it will typically be like +:Fe: .
Of course ESIs predominately use -:Fi: , so you won't see the +:Fe: as often as is the case with +:Fe: Ego or Demonstrative types.
Fi valuers - self-righteous
Fe valuers - disrespecful
This low blow made my Fi cringe.Quote:
Originally Posted by darya
That quoted comment kind of shocked me, too, but that's the beauty of this thread. It really does illustrate the differences between Fe and Fi-valuers. If if makes you feel better, @mclane, they'll be friends again in no time.Quote:
Originally Posted by mclane
After my marriage to an SLI-Te fell apart, I chased an IEI for a while, maybe because she reminded me of an IEI aunt who loved me, maybe because she was smart and intuitive and beautiful and charming, IDK. But I was learning about socionics at the same time that I was chasing her, and it occurred to me that to be with her long term, I had the ability to suppress my Te and to emphasize my Se, but I absolutely could not reconcile the Fe-Fi divide.
P.S.
I should add that I really like the Fe shown by IEI's. It is one of their best traits. It makes them charming and pleasant (usually) to be around.
I may be new to this signs stuff but the list I got is different:Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassandra
Types with -:Fe::SEI, ESE LSI, SLE, ILI, LIE, EII, IEE
Types with +:Fe:: ILE, LII, EIE, IEI, SEE, ESI, LSE SLI
I think the lists you have are the right & left rings or is there different interpretation of the signs?
http://wikisocion.org/en/images/e/e6...tion_signs.png
I'd normally agree, but there is the instance of getting everything you'd ever want at the low, low price of not getting it yourself. Moses wasn't very upset at his people getting their promised land with the minor caveat (among others I cannot recall at the immediate moment) that he'd never get to set foot in it himself. Jesus died to free everyone else from death despite begging the Father to pass his cup onto someone else... You get the idea. If you lack most selfish inclinations then, well, offer up your own life and get all your Christmases all at once. Dying horribly is but a small price to pay to ensure Utopia to everyone except yourself (who dies horribly as the price of it coming into reality).Quote:
Originally Posted by Simo
The only good part about that story is that you chose to do it yourself. It's like the old philosphical question. Do ye throw the switch and run the fat fucker over to save three other thin people or do you let the three others die because that's what would have happened if ye had not noticed the dilemma. There is a third option, throw yourself upon the train to keep both groups alive. You die, yeah, but you also dodge one hell of a moral quandrantry. If one life must be offered up upon the altar to save many, the only offer you can make that keeps you free from any negative moral judgement in all conceivable ways is to offer up your own... Now THAT keeps the nihilists at bay as nobody can say that your death lacked any sort of meaning. You died to save em' all, anyone who knocks on that is just one hell of a fucking asshole at BEST!
I would say being pleasant and polite is more like :Fe: with :Si: and dramatic emotion is more like :Fe: with :Ni: rather than opting for the signed element interpretation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alioth
yeah I guess if you care very much about the people you're going to save then you may die for themQuote:
Originally Posted by End
as for the philosophical question my answer would be to let the three die as I wouldn't kill a stranger to save anyone neither will I sacrifice my life for strangers
There are many different versions and interpretations on the +/- stuff out there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Simo
I am relying on this, which I deem to be the most accurate take on it so far:
that "Fi types cant hide their emotions" speaks against Jung's Fi type.
Quote:
Faced with anything that might carry her away or arouse enthusiasm, this type observes a benevolent though critical neutrality, coupled with a faint trace of superiority that soon takes the wind out of the sails of a sensitive person. Any stormy emotion, however, will be struck down with murderous coldness, unless it happens to catch the woman on her unconscious side - that is, unless it hits her feelings by arousing a primordial image. In that case, she simply feels paralyzed for the moment, and this in due course invariably produces an even more obstinate resistance which will hit the other person in his most vulnerable spot. As far as possible, the relation of feeling to the object is kept to the safe middle path, where passion and its intemperateness are resolutely tabooed. Expression of feeling, therefore, remains niggardly, and the other person has a permanent sense of being undervalued once he becomes conscious of it. Such, however, is not always the case, because very he remains unconscious of the lack of feeling shown to him, in which case the unconscious demands of feeling will produce symptoms designed to compel a more serious attention.
Since this type appears rather cold and reserved, it might seem on a superficial view that such women have no feelings at all. Such a view, however, would be quite false; the truth is, their feelings are intensive rather than extensive. They develop in depth. While an extensive feeling of sympathy can express itself in appropriate words and deeds, and thus quickly gets back to normal again, an intensive sympathy, being shut off from every means of expression, gains a passionate depth that comprises a whole world of misery and is simply benumbed. It may, perhaps, break out in some extravagant form, leading to some astounding act of an almost heroic character, quite unrelated to either the subject herself or to the object that provoked the outburst. To the outside world, or to the blind eyes of the extravert, this intensive sympathy looks like coldness, because it usually does nothing visible, and an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
but if someone says type X has +Fe & the other says no it has -Fe, then we can't use signs in typingQuote:
Originally Posted by Cassandra
Well, I am assuming the graph you have shown is about what DarkAngelFireWolf69 called the "spin".Quote:
Originally Posted by Simo
It is simply a different way to look at the functions. DarkAngelFireWolf69's current interpretation is rather about the "positivism" and "negativism" of IEs in the Reinin sense, more or less.
Here is a sample of how the IEs in their +/- "express themselves" in the specific Quadras. But note how for example for the Beta Quadra only the +Fe kind (of IEI and SLE) is being mentioned. The full description would also involve the -Fe kind, that is being used by EIE and LSI. So be aware of the fact this overview is incomplete.
I'd always trusted the model that gave an entire judgment/perception axis the same sign per quadra (if any type in a given quadra values :Ti:-, then all types in this quadra also value :Fe:-, while their perception functions (:Se:, :Si:, :Ne:, :Ni:) are both positive). This setup I'm seeing here seems a bit arbitrary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassandra
What's even stranger is the fact that we're taking signs of functions seriously. I'd always considered that a negligible detail and a simple emphasis on another single Reinin dichotomy.
Yeah socionics and jung don't always mesh. Like he says they wear a banal childish mask and i have seen this in EII more than ESi. I do think that in order to explain stuff like the following you need some enneagram and instincts. Not to mention that fact that people are way more complex than any of these systems can account for. Mental illness is going to skew things a lot too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost
Quote:
EIIs are usually very straightforward about their feelings in front of others; what you see from them is what you get. Even at a party where everyone is supposed to be happy, they still find it hard to conceal their true feelings when they are in a bad mood. This can create distaste among the rest who feel that the EII is not cooperating by contributing to the positive and boisterous mood. This tends to lead others who don't know the EII well to have a misconception that he/she is a grouchy person by nature.
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Extroverted Ethics (Fe, http://www.sociotype.com/images/im/Fe.gif)
ESIs may sometimes be concerned with maintaining a positive emotional environment, sustaining a group mood, having fun and joking, etc. -- but usually do not focus towards this end as much as they do towards the internal experience of their emotions, and they usually see no point in maintaining a group atmosphere if they do not already have a positive attitude towards the people involved; they may simply be inclined to walk away and not participate in an atmosphere generated by individuals they dislike, which may be seen by others as judgmental and spoiling the mood.
ESIs may have difficulty interacting in environments where the air is openly hostile and unfriendly and can seek to ensure that others maintain minimum standards of cordiality and decency, especially if the environment is constituted by people they care about. However, at other times they may be responsible for and willing to sacrifice a friendly atmosphere by censuring others whom they see as reprehensible. In general, ESIs' sense of moral integrity and conscience is more influential in their decision making.
Though ESIs often show a degree of conscientiousness as to the way others respond to their actions, this tends to be only their driving motivation to base their actions on the expected reactions of others inasmuch as their personal relationships are at stake. They may at times be surprisingly blunt in their communications, instead taking a pragmatic approach towards disseminating rather direct advice.
I guess it correlates somewhat and perhaps I am just better at reading their emotions than some other types would be. So when I say they can't hide I am saying they are not hiding it from me. :shifty:Quote:
It is principally among women that I have found the predominance of introverted feeling. "Still waters run deep" is very true of such women. They are mostly silent, inaccessible, hard to understand; often they hide behind a childish or banal mask, and their temperament is inclined to melancholy. They neither shine nor reveal themselves. As they are mainly guided by their subjective feelings, their true motives generally remain hidden. Their outward demeanour is harmonious, inconspicuous, giving an impression of pleasing repose, or of sympathetic response, with no desire to affect others, to impress, influence, or change them in any way. If this outward aspect is more pronounced, it arouses a suspicion of indifference and coldness, which may actually turn into a disregard for the comfort and well-being of others. One is distinctly aware then of the movement of feeling away from the object. With the normal type, however, this happens only when the influence of the object is too strong. The feeling of harmony, therefore, lasts only so long as the object goes its own moderate way and makes no attempt to cross the other's path. There is little effort to respond to the real emotions of the other person; they are more often damped down and rebuffed, or cooled off by a negative value judgment. Although there is a constant readiness for peaceful and harmonious co-existence, strangers are shown no touch of amiability, no gleam of responsive warmth, but are met with apparent indifference or a repelling coldness.
Edit: still talking about people I know well. Not online people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassandra
Can you actually say that you don't do all, or most, of the following at one point or another though?
Next, V.V. DarkAngelFireWolf69 writes:
Basing on the proposed placement of signs of functions, we can decipher the meaning of each of combination. Socionic functions ... carry, in our view, the following semantic content:
+ Fe :Fe: - positive emotions, joy, merriment, emotional elation, excitement, a smile, laughter, enthusiasm, optimism, good mood, the experience of happiness;
− Fe :Fe: - negative emotions, grief, sorrow, sadness, emotional recession, depression, crying, tears, frustration, pessimism, poor mood, the experience of unhappiness;
+ Fi :Fi: - good relations, love, friendship, affection, attraction, warmth in relations, sociability, close psychological distance, goodness, compassion;
− Fi :Fi: - poor relations, hatred, animosity, antipathy, repulsion, indifference in relations, alienation, unsociability, remote psychological distance, wickedness, mercilessness;
+ Ne :Ne: - prospects, opportunities, positive potential, core meaning, essence, principle, new ideas, advancing hypotheses, theory, insight, interest, originality, unusual, fantastical, hopefulness;
− Ne :Ne: - hopelessness, alternatives, negative potential, meaninglessness, absurdity, paradox, the forgotten and the old, insight, mediocrity, commonness, repressed possibilities, reality, disbelief, sensation[hit];
+ Ni :Ni: - future, change in the situation over time, prediction, premonition, gradual development, evolution, gradual ascent, the dynamics of change, the flow of time, imagination, harmonious description, subtle step-by-step changes, convergence, confluence;
− Ni :Ni: - past, accounting for errors, avoidance of danger, anxiety, a worrying premonition, a warning, the ripening of a crisis, revolution, a leap in time, ability to hedge against troubles, sudden shifts, discordant description, the moment of decisive action, divergence, deviation;
I believe these would be all the 3 and 4D functions of an IEI. His separating them like this seems kind of pointless and limiting.
Types primarily use the preferred +/- of the IEs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aylen
Besides that, one can and does more or less often use the opposite "pole" of the strongest functions (Lead and Demonstrative), according to DarkAngelFireWolf69.
Because, when you are very competent at an IE, you will be able to employ its opposite "pole" more easily.
What that means, is that IEI will primarily use +Ni and +Fe for most situations, and sometimes use -Ni (or possibly -Fe if strong Fe subtype) if the situation calls for it.
After that, the IEI can and does use -Fi, and possibly +Fi (strong Ni subtype tries to focus more on Ti and will be more suppressed in this area.)
After that, the IEI uses -Ti and/or +Si (depends on subtype – strong Fe subtype might use +Si a bit more often in comparison) within limits.
After that, the IEI might use -Ne, but because it is "Ignoring" this won't occur too often.
The rest will mostly not be "used" or "employed" much at all. But that's just my take on it.
To sum up:
(primary focus of the subtypes)
IEI-2Ni: +Ni, -Ni, +Fe, -Fi, -Ti, -Ne
IEI-2Fe: +Ni, +Fe, -Fe, -Fi, +Fi, +Si
IEI have weak Ti and weak unvalued Te so socionics presented in any factual way is probably going to trigger some. Pointing out inconsistency and asking for clarity seem Ti seeking to me, not Te seeking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Simo
Perse said:
Quote:
Seriously, I mention your inconsistency, you say - later - it's Te seeking. I say you don't see a bigger picture, you say - still later - it's based on emotion and is little to no logic. Why don't you address anything directly when people "call you out"? Instead, you post snarky passive aggressive comments later on.
Quote:
Introverted logic is an introverted, rational, and static information element. It is also called Ti, L, structural logic, or white logic.
Ti is generally associated with the ability to recognize logical consistency and correctness, generate and apply classifications and systems, organize systematic and conceptual understanding, see logical connections between things (including logical similarities, differences, and correlations) by means of instinctive feelings of validity, symmetry, and even beauty. It is like common sense, in that it builds on one's expectations of reality, through a somewhat personal, though explicable, understanding of general truths and how they are manifested.
Types that value Ti naturally question the consistency of beliefs that are taken for granted in everyday life. They strongly prefer to make decisions based on their own experience and judgement, as opposed to relying on external authorities for knowledge, which they use only as a last resort. They also have respect for people with clearly defined and internally consistent opinions, believing that a sense of internal certainty is necessary for orienting oneself in life. To these types, one's personal standards of truth are more reliable than public consensus.
They see overly pragmatic views as shallow, and try to limit public discussion of mundane practical matters. They are especially sensitive to redundant information.
When I question typings, or most things, it is because I want clarity especially because some people seem to have their own systems and definitions of the functions. People can call it Te seeking if they want to but there must be some common understanding of functions or we might as well remain in our own little universes of understanding, which makes sharing ideas pointless. I assume that anyone who can confidently post about most aspects of socionics would be able to explain their own theories on how it works otherwise why bother to post at all unless you are confident in your ability to back it all up. You don't need Te to back up a perspective. A thoughtful, sincere response is appreciated even if lacks any form of strong logic. :content:Quote:
IEIs may tend to brood and dubitate over logical categories rather than generate their own; their intellectual musings are often more observational, causal, and open-ended than those of Ti ego types. IEIs' insights are highly internal, and frequently prove difficult to disambiguate and elucidate properly. They may be inclined to circumlocutory tangents and lengthy illustrations that fail to address the intended point completely, sometimes presenting information in an overly vague and ambiguous manner. Many IEIs do not naturally think in a structured fashion, and the introduction of clarity and consistency helps to organize and refocus their jumbled cogitations.
Because many people highly prize their logical reasoning skills and their personal theories they spend alot of time thinking about and creating. For some people, this is a large source of their personal self worth and to criticize that is to criticize a good portion of what is valuable for them. Maybe it's not so important for you but it is for other people. Like me for example.Quote:
Originally Posted by darya
Well I wouldn't say *all* ethical types because there are always going be some exceptions but in a general sense, yes, I think ethical types are more prone to being easily hurt.Quote:
Originally Posted by darya
It's part of why I've struggled so much with the logical/ethical dichotomy in socionics. Because I know that I am easily hurt, it's probably my biggest downfall and the thing I would most desire to change about myself if I could. Yet I strongly identify with many aspects of the logical dichotomy in socionics, and I will admit that I personally prize my logical skills moreso than my relational skills, which kind of suck. The things I'm naturally good at fall in the logical domain, not the ethical one.
I also badly tolerate any sort of criticism or insults directly at me. You can guarantee that I would be very hurt if I was told that my cooking sucked or that I'm ugly, etc. It's okay, if I tell myself that I'm a bad cook or ugly but I don't allow people to say that to my face. They will pay the price and I will make them feel really sorry they ever said such a thing.
I do think logical types can easily be hurt and there may be some non-socionics factors at work here. Perhaps things like enneagram, one's level of self-esteem, personal upbringing, etc. I don't think all LIIs are cool as a cucumber, emotionally indifferent types.
I've known several ethical types who are quite thick-skinned and don't get offended easily as well as logical types who do. It's not a simple 1:1 black or white thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by darya
I also am quite skeptical of people who say they aren't offended by anything. My experience has been that most people have some strongly held opinion, value, principle of some sort that people should not step on. Of course some get offended more easily than others and by a greater number of things.
I think with Fe it can work both ways. They can be really nice on the outside to influence the emotional atmosphere to make it really positive or it can be the exact opposite, to purposefully make someone feel really bad.
It makes me wonder if I have destructive Fe at times because I have been guilty of making people feel really bad that they offended me. "You hurt me, and you will pay the price for it" sort of thinking. Otherwise, I'm probably one of the nicest, sweetest people when everything's all good. I would never offend anyone on purpose. If I'm nasty, its strictly a reactionary defense mechanism.
I may not like her very much in the end, but I cannot argue against her being another ILI very effectively so I will say this... Ayn Rand is liking your comment from the great beyond :P.Quote:
Originally Posted by Simo
aww whenever cassandra is upset my heart breaks for her. My precious IEI str8 girl plz don't fret, I will protect you. and then fuck you passionately. You need a real alpha estp in your life to treat you good. my soul sister don't get into petty debates with assholes online.
If somebody wants to be a professional/very good at something they should expect (even enjoy) criticism , if you are just trying to do something nice for somebody else or you are in a non-professional setting - the person who bitches and complains is just being an ass. You shouldn't expect the carpet rolled red for you if there's also nothing in it for the other person... I remember wrapping presents for my sister during Christmas, and I knew I was doing a crappy job but I was like 'this is a free service. You can't complain.' heh Luckily she agreed. Anyway people often overly criticize softer/weaker targets knowing they can get away with it, if something really bothers you- then you cannot be afraid to be sadistic.Quote:
I also badly tolerate any sort of criticism or insults directly at me. You can guarantee that I would be very hurt if I was told that my cooking sucked or that I'm ugly, etc. It's okay, if I tell myself that I'm a bad cook or ugly but I don't allow people to say that to my face. They will pay the price and I will make them feel really sorry they ever said such a thing.
as per cassandra she was asked to provide a reliable source for her typing not for clarificationQuote:
Originally Posted by Aylen
well this came after my comment so it doesn't count :PQuote:
Perse said:
that's why I like programming since it follows clear logical sequence so people can't interpret it as they like and even if two people didn't agree on how they think function x works they can test it & judge by the result who was rightQuote:
When I question typings, or most things, it is because I want clarity especially because some people seem to have their own systems and definitions of the functions. People can call it Te seeking if they want to but there must be some common understanding of functions or we might as well remain in our own little universes of understanding, which makes sharing ideas pointless. I assume that anyone who can confidently post about most aspects of socionics would be able to explain their own theories on how it works otherwise why bother to post at all unless you are confident in your ability to back it all up. You don't need Te to back up a perspective. A thoughtful, sincere response is appreciated even if lacks any form of strong logic. :content:
Haha awww Bullets, that made me laugh. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullets
But don't worry, I am not upset. :)
I don't equate a positive outside atmosphere - e.g. the moods for the communication that you mention - with feeling close to the other person. Just because you set a mood for the communication, it doesn't mean closeness. That's where I wasn't following you. So I was asking you about what you meant by having others feel very close to you. Still not clear on this. Let me know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chae
Note in this context how I called Fi a bit weirdly distant, while I wouldn't say Fe is about feeling all that personally close to the other person. It's more like Fe is the line of Ethics communication that I fit better with. So it's more normal to me, it just feels normal when there is Fe, even if I don't even notice this easily by default.
Also, I'm thinking you sound slightly Democratic quadra there but I don't really think these Reinin dichotomies can be all that easily discerned.
I don't expect to ever interact with those random customers in the shop so I don't see much specific about them.Quote:
No one is a generalization, ask lungs and she will give you a complete rundown of that :lol: Again - perspective.
Again same comment on Democratic for you - I would not have mentioned it above if I hadn't seen this too. But please, take this comment only for what it's worth, which isn't much (since Reinin, lol).
Heh well, quite some people still try to type me SLE. No problem with you considering SLE for me but you will need to come up with some stronger arguments for it ;)Quote:
Are you sure you're not a SLE? Your perception of Fi seems impeded by Fe set as standard ("normal"), your usual mode is busy with the outside situation, and you literally said how your focus is not on ethics of relations at all XD And! Complete rejection of relating to random people --> low in Fi, you stated it in your first sentence as well. Fi lead would figure out how they relate to /any/ person there is. Short analysis of mini material. What do you think?
And yes please :love::love:
So, well I didn't mean to say Fi is completely alien or whatever, I simply perceive it in a slightly distant way, where the Fi base person is somehow not part of the atmosphere much but is "hiding". This is more noticeable with EII because their high Intuition adds to this impression. With ESIs it's not so much in my face, I may not even notice it most of the time, but if I look closely enough, some of that distance thing is still there. Not fully connected over the Ethically right version of communication line. If this makes sense :) But I do get along ok with ESIs.
There is a slight misunderstanding here too - I meant my default focus is not on Ethics or people related stuff such as relationships. Relationships is an Ethics area, handled both by Fi and Fe. Yeah, I don't like the labeling of Fi as "relations" in the sense of "relationships", the label of "relations of Ethics" is ok for it but that is a very technical term and clearly, it can be misunderstood. Since "relations" in that term just means "fields", the area that the introverted information elements deal in/with. I just said "relations" in the sense of relationships, everyday meaning of the word.
More clarification, where I said I focus on the outside situation, I mean I don't focus on my own inner personal reactions much (be it either Fi or Fe).
I will agree with low Fi. No, I don't try to deeply personally relate to every stranger I see in a shop, I don't try to evaluate how much I like or dislike each of them, but that's not just low Fi really. I would think everyone is like this. (Well or most people, but if Fi bases really do this about every stranger then that goes way past my 2D Fi worldview lol.)
Now, if a random stranger initiates a conversation with me, I can be pretty welcoming with them but that's not the same as deeply personally relating in that Fi sense. By default I will simply not think of how I personally relate to them. This doesn't mean I'm completely clueless on it though. If you ask me after one such interaction with a stranger - imagine this interaction as very Fe, like you'd do it or something and imagine it as positive for this example - about how I relate to them, I'd give you this standard answer along these lines of "I can't really say much about someone who I have only seen once. I definitely enjoyed the interaction and I find the person likeable, 3.5 on a scale of 0-5 but not putting much stock into this for now".
PS: Going to do that PM now. :)
Harmony is both Fe and Fi, just the approach differs. Ethics is the human side of things, emotions-feelings, values and all that sort of stuff, including the focus on harmony when that's what's desired.Quote:
Originally Posted by sorrowsofyoungwerther
Fe is extraverted and so it is about directly expressed Ethics of feelings, values etc in the open. Fi is introverted and is about the person's own Ethics based filter of feelings, values etc.
So, Fe will focus on the emotions of an "atmosphere" coming from themselves and from other people, and that's what's harmonized so to speak (which can mean conflict just fine if that's what moves things forwards, assuming the Fe type is healthy, too and so on). Fi will focus on harmony through their own Ethics filter instead and will be a more passive approach, through structuring and limiting certain behaviours more, compared to Fe.
Where Fe causes conflict is by open expressions. It will have more assertion, more convincing power to others, when causing conflict than Fi does, due to extraversion. Where Fi gets in the way of group harmony is by a more passive way again. That is, when these introverted-filtered feelings/values happen to be against the externally expressed feelings/values. The Fi base type will not directly accept the extraverted version of Ethics, it has to go through its own filter. The Fi base type can still speak up passionately when they really get into something but it's with less emotional energy compared to Fe. It will look clearly more introverted in focus.
So that's slightly more complex than just expressing "my true emotions". That, as put, without looking closer, could be either Fi or Fe really. But since Fi is not directly about the objects, but (Ethics based) comparisons between them, you would say that an expressed emotion without Fi's filter is an Fe emotion. In the stereotypical Socionics sense.