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Originally Posted by niffweed17
the theories are similar, but they are not exact. this applies to type descriptions as well as all other parts of the two theories.
I have never said they they are "exact". I have said that they describe the same groups of people (the real, empirical types). Their type descriptions sometimes focus on different aspects of the same type.
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however, focusing solely on type descriptions is enough to produce clear contradictions:
briefly looking over the MBTI types, the best example of a type which has somewhat different features when considered between MBTI and socionics is the ISFJ/ISFj.
Well ... let's see about that. But remember, describing somewhat different features is not the same thing as a contradiction.
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ISFJs are characterized above all by their desire to serve others, their "need to be needed." In extreme cases, this need is so strong that standard give-and-take relationships are deeply unsatisfying to them; however, most ISFJs find more than enough with which to occupy themselves within the framework of a normal life. (Since ISFJs, like all SJs, are very much bound by the prevailing social conventions, their form of "service" is likely to exclude any elements of moral or political controversy; they specialize in the local, the personal, and the practical.)
all of the above is entirely untrue in ISFjs i know, and almost all of it goes against the functions of Fi and Se. however, this seems to be a very good description for an ESFj. Fi types would not "need to be needed" as Fe types might (rather, they need morals (?) and human contact).
Then you don't know them well enough, or they are not ISFjs. I am quite familiar with ISFjs, considering that I have lived with, and still do, an ISFj for many years. I also know other ISFjs, both females and males. All of the above is true of ISFjs, but it is slightly misleading, since some other traits tend not to be mentioned in the MBTI descriptions. In general I find the socionic descriptions of ISFjs more accurate than the MBTI descriptions of ISFJs, but there are no contradictions.
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No ISFj, furthermore, would shy from moral controversy, as this description implies.
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... Being SJs, they place a strong emphasis on conventional behavior (although, unlike STJs, they are usually as concerned with being "nice" as with strict propriety); if any of their nearest and dearest depart from the straight-and-narrow, it causes the ISFJ major embarrassment: the closer the relationship and the more public the act, the more intense the embarrassment (...) Needless to say, ISFJs take infinite trouble over meals, gifts, celebrations, etc., for their loved ones--although strong Js may tend to focus more on what the recipient should want rather than what they do want.
You are wrong. Some real life ISFjs shy away from moral controversy in the way described here. And it is true of most ISFjs that they "take infinite trouble over meals, gifts, celebrations, etc., for their loved ones".
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more behavior characteristic of ESFjs more than ISFjs. note the strong Fe which appears to be present (which is ok as MBTI ISFJs have creative Fe) with the following of conventional social norms, and the attempt to please others through sensory delights (meals, gifts, celebrations, etc.)
If you compare real life ESFjs with real life ISFjs you will find many similarities of the kind you have described. That is no contradiction either.
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He perfectly remembers both good and evil, and considers it necessary to “repay” for them (...)
That is an expression of the IJ temperament, something that is not often mentioned in the MBTI profiles -- but there is no contradiction.
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He does not reveal emotions much, and so appears cold-blooded. Often he does not look directly into his interlocutor’s eyes, as though in order not burn him down.
Can be found in more than one introverted type. No contradiction.
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A complicated ethical situation inspires him.
It is not very accurate to say that a complicated ethical situation inspires an ISFj. If you compare with real life ISFjs, you will realize that that statement is as misleading as some statements in the MBTI profiles.
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comparing this to the ISFJ, the ISFj DOES have involvement in moral issues (i.e. necessary to repay for good and evil).
And so does the the ISFJ. Read some more MBTI profiles if you haven't found that trait described. That is not a contradiction.
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the ISFj with Fi is more reserved than the ISFJ with Fe.
Nonsense.
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Friends are those who accept his ethical norms. He submits his emotions to the emotions of the others
again, lacks the conservative features of the ISFJ who demands acceptance of society's norms.
No. Both the ISFj and the ISFJ is described as moral, and that moralism is manifested in the same way. The only difference is how the two models explain the origin of that moral attitude.
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not all features, of course, of the ISFJ are inapplicable to the ISFj. it is also true that there are some other types in MBTI who are very similar to their socionic counterparts (EXFPs come to mind).
Every MBTI type is similar to their socionic counterpart. You must be blind not to see that if you have read many type descriptions.
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these inconsistencies just illustrate the fact that there is no direct correlation between the two theories. the fact that they may coincide in one place does not mean that they do so entirely.
Overall the type descriptions of both theories describe the same traits, but there are also differences in focus, which means that they complement each other. If you compare with real life examples of the types, you will see that both theories describe the same types correctly. The socionic descriptions are more accurate in most cases, but some aspects of some types are more correctly described in MBTI. A clear example of that is some descriptions of INTps written by INTjs, which (as you know) can be quite misleading. In comparison to them, many of the MBTI descriptions of INTPs are better. Stratiyevskaya's description is the most accurate socionic description of INTps I know of.
