Reinin Dichotomies: Obstinate vs. Yielding

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Originally Posted by snegledmaca

COMPLIANCE – OBSTINACY
USTUPCHIVOST - UPRJAMSTVO

Compliant (Extroverts with logic and introverts with ethics):
Ustupchivye (ekstraverty - logiki i introverty - etiki):

1. For the compliant inside of their "personal space" (i.e. something that cannot be compromised), which is outlined with a "personal boundary", are personal resources (Time, funds) and interests are manipulated (Are "played" with). An interest is taken only if it can be supported by adequate/corresponding personal resources.
2. Compliants, while interacting with other people, freely express their interests
(They freely express their intimate opinions, voice their disagreements, consider counterarguments, share their interests with other people). They divide interests as "my interests" and "those of other people".
3. The compliant protects their personal resources to a point of conflict, but does not do the same thing with their interests. If a person starts asking/requesting their resources, as they perceive it, intruding into their "personal space", they react by a very sharp reaction which can seem a bit over the edge, aggressive (This reaction is connected with the property of "inviolability" of their resources)

Obstinate (Extrovert with ethics and introverts with logic):
Uprjamye (ekstraverty - etiki i introverty - logiki):

1. For the obstinate into their "personal ("inviolable") space", which is outlined with a "personal boundary", are placed interests and for them resources are manipulated. With the usage of their resources they make opportunities for interests.
2. The obstinate in interaction with other people freely operates with their resources (They can "share" and "change" them, refurnish them and use/spend them). They divide resources on their resources and other people's resources.
3. The obstinate guards itself from intrusions into their personal sphere of interests, and do not protect their resources. If a person tries to impose interests on them and thus intrude into their personal space their reaction will be sufficiently deterring/sharp (Such a reaction occurs if other peoples interests do not become the obstinate's interests)

Note

The keys for this group are the concepts of "personal space", "resources" (What we have available at our disposal) and "personal interests" (Unlike regular interests these are completely personal, actions that we find interesting and feel personal responsibility and attachment to). "Personal space" is something that an individual feels is an integral part of them, it cannot be renounced and will be defended/guarded from claims upon it and intrusions into it by others. For the compliant this space is occupied by their resources while for the obstinate by their interests. As a result of that complaints manipulate interests (Freely change them, adjust them in accordance with their resources) and obstinates resources (They adjust them to their interests).

Examples

Compliant:
"What you do, your affairs/actions, can either be determined by yourself or by other people who will "burden/chain" you with their wishes and requests" "Interests/hobbies in which I cannot participate anymore (Cannot do for one reason or another) eventually become uninteresting and I grow tired of them. I let go of old interests easily" "I limit my affairs, how many things I'm involved with, how many things I am suppose to do. For instance I may find something very interesting to do/get involved with, but I won't pursue the thing" "if I know that I can't do something, I won't and will forget all about it" "If I have an interest it is, naturally, reflected by capabilities. If something is impossible I won't go wasting my time and effort on it. I don't understand people who list all kinds of numerous interests... personally I clearly know what my capabilities are"

Obstinate:
"I never let go of my passions(Interests). But I also won't, because of them, neglect sleep, eating..." "I certainly won't abandon it.... I'm inclined to carry the situation to the end" "I can't let go of my passions for the fear of losing myself, my identity/personality" "My passions (Interests) go the limits of my physical capabilities. When my physical capabilities show me their limits- I will let go of my passions (Interests) but I will do this only as a very last resort... but even then I will not abandon them but I will only "postpone" them and await the moment when I can get back to them. I won't drop/abandon my passions (interests) just because my resources are inadequate..."

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Compliant: ExTx, IxFx
Obstinant: ExFx, IxTx

I'm usually an Obstinant.

I'm Compliant. :shock:

From the names in this dichotomy, I would have immediately assumed that I'm Obstinant. :lol:

Clearly obstinate in my case.

Obstinate.

Compliant apparently. Again I have had some interests where I have showed great Obstinacy but in the end I'm not someone who will continuously fight the windmills just for passion.

Obstinate for me.

Compliant. I am extremely possessive of my personal space. Though it is unclear the distinciton between interest and resource. Interests require resources, for example.

.

Obstinate.

something between the two, but more compliant than obstinate.

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Originally Posted by gilligan87

Obstinate.

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Gilligan, you seem to be flip-floping a lot on what you originally said in the "Sorry smilingeyes" thread. Any reason?

heres the only one im sure about so far.

obstinate, clearly.

Compliant.

This is me:

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2. Compliants, while interacting with other people, freely express their interests
(They freely express their intimate opinions, voice their disagreements, consider counterarguments, share their interests with other people). They divide interests as "my interests" and "those of other people".
3. The compliant protects their personal resources to a point of conflict, but does not do the same thing with their interests. If a person starts asking/requesting their resources, as they perceive it, intruding into their "personal space", they react by a very sharp reaction which can seem a bit over the edge, aggressive (This reaction is connected with the property of "inviolability" of their resources)

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Please someone explain this to me.

If a yeilding type is protecting resources, how can she at the same time take resources for granted? (Same question for the obstinate types.)

See:

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http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p..._and_obstinate

[edit] Yielding types (SEI, ILE, IEI, SLE, ESI, LIE, EII, LSE)

• Protects resources : resources are taken for granted, whereas interests are adapted to them.

[edit] Obstinate types (LII, ESE, LSI, EIE, ILI, SEE, SLI, IEE)

• Protects interests : interests are taken for granted, whereas resources are adapted to them.

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One thing I have a problem with is that I am a hoarder. I tend to keep things "just in case" I want or need them someday. I see this as part of my E5 wing fixation, conserving resources (as well as energy, etc.).

If I am understanding this correctly, that should fit with the yeilding type quality of protecting of resources, but it seems to clash with the idea that resources are taken for granted.

Not to mention...this is pretty vague about what it means to adapt your interests to your resources. (and vice versa)

It probably means exactly what you said. It's just very poorly worded. Resources are taken for granted vis-a-vis interests; meaning that resource hoarding goes on (the need to manipulate this trend is nonexistent) while interests are adapted to suit that need.

I suppose it's about whether interests or resources are more important.

I keep thinking of food as a resource. But then I keep struggle with the interest part.

LIke if food is a resource, and you have food to eat. Does that mean that eating is the interest.

I have an interest in eating. It's very fascinating. I try to see the best way to eat the food that I have.

Or I try to have the best way to eat the food that I see. I don't care about what I eat - I care about how I eat. I must use a fork, and it must be right kind of ..

I don't think the analogy is working.

I like yourself, can tend towards hoarding. I find that I don't often have abundant resources; but when I do, then I see at there for the taking. Unless other people become too reliant. And then it's precious. :) Because I really don't want to run out.

I suppose the interest bit bogs me down. I like resources. But I don't really care for interests.

Oh hangon, maybe I can answer your actual question. Rather than trying to understand what the types mean.

I want to be able to take resources for granted. I want to act as if there's always more than enough to go around. I want there to be plentiful. But if that starts becoming an issue I start cutting down -

Like if I have abundant resources - I don't really care who gets benefited by my resources; and I don't mind sharing. But the lower my resource stash gets the more I start deciding based upon the "relevance" of people, who is entitled to resources, and who is not.

And at the end of the day, when I have really low resources I only care about myself, and me having resources. But as soon as I have higher resources I suddenly care about more than more and my own resources become other peoples resources too.

Does that make sense.

Which BTW translates to withholding resources under stress. And things not going right in my own life makes me selfish. Although it also translates to things going well in my life, and I start becoming quite generous.

Although some people pick on this being about "It's all about you". Like I don't generally look at other peoples need as much as my own ability to fullfill.

Like how can I care about starving kids in Africa when I can't even afford beer? I need beer, more than they need to eat. I need cigarettes. I need what I need, to get by. And I need what I need, because I say I need what I need. And that makes it true, and no-one anyone says is going to change my need.

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Originally Posted by esper

One thing I have a problem with is that I am a hoarder. I tend to keep things "just in case" I want or need them someday. I see this as part of my E5 wing fixation, conserving resources (as well as energy, etc.).

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<<Holds up hand>>

My name is aka-kitsune and I am a resource hoarder. :D

This dichotomy is more noticeable in some than in others (but it's not a good way to determine someone's type, in any case). It really stands out if you compare me to the LII that I was with.

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Originally Posted by esper

lol...

What do you think of yourself in response to Mimosa's interpretation?

(I tend to hang onto resources under stress too, btw, but after her explanation I don't know if that's to do with yeilding types.)

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Yeilding.

Alhtough if I come across a soccer ball, and a field. I may remember it, even if they're not right in front of me.

Yielding and obstinate- what does interest mean in these statements?

"Yielding types

Resources are 'sacred', but ideas are freely shared and manipulated.
Easily aware of the boundaries between their and others' interests.
Protect their resources to the point of conflict, and their reaction may be unduly strong.
“If I know I can't do something, I won't and will forget all about it.”

Obstinate types

Ideas are 'sacred', but resources are freely shared and manipulated.
Easily aware of the boundaries between their and others' resources.
Guard their interests from intrusions, and their reaction to such intrusions may be quite sharp.
“I won't abandon my interests just because my resources are inadequate, but simply work towards improving my resources until they ARE adequate.”

2. Regard for one's own benefit or advantage; self-interest. Often used in the plural: It is in your best interest to cooperate. She kept her own interests in mind.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/interests

this one was actually one of the most interesting from the point of view of how it's interpreted in the Focal/Diffuse model:
Obstinate: Focal F, Diffuse T
Yielding: Focal T, Diffuse F

So if Interests = F and Resources (more in the sense of methods and tools) = T, Focal is well seen as that which is protected since it's obsessively kept in focus.

So, Focal F = Interest Protecting
Focal T = Resource Protecting

this is one of those funky ones i never notice people using. does anybody recognize it or use it? how?

edit: well i've seen it but usually in the literal sense. "you're obstinate" meaning "you're a stubborn bastard." but i don't think its supposed to work that way?

Where is info about focal/diffuse model?

I must be yielding.

Get a better source. None of this is accurate. Probably was written by a forum member or something.

Theoretical properties of yielding and obstinate types

Yielding/obstinate corresponds with the evaluatory/situational dichotomy for rational information elements:
The yielding types have evaluatory :Te::Fi: and situational :Ti::Fe:.
The obstinate types have evaluatory :Ti::Fe: and situational :Te::Fi:.

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Originally Posted by http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Evaluatory#Evaluatory_and_situatio nal

Evaluatory and situational



Evaluatory functions are the strongest (1 and 8) and weakest (4 and 5) functions of a person's psyche; strong judgments about areas that involve these functions are made.

Accepting-evaluatory functions, specifically the base and suggestive, are valued by the individual. Evaluations made here are taken seriously, as they compose the center of one's personality. In the leading function lies the core of their evaluations and decisions and so remains firmly inert; information accepted in the complementary suggestive function is also evaluated by an individual, but being weak and still yet valued, it strives to make contact with the environment to develop.

Producing-evaluatory functions are subdued by the individual; evaluations are produced here only when information cannot be processed by valued accepting functions and are instead processed by our subdued accepting[sic] (producing?) functions. Since the information produced in these areas are subdued, evaluations are generally negative but nonetheless firm. This is especially true of the vulnerable function. As for the demonstrative function, evaluations are produced in favor of one's creative function, so it is taken less seriously even though an individual is quite sophisticated in that area.



Situational functions are accessed on a case-by-case basis, so decisions and judgments made in these areas are more or less inclined to remain constant.

Accepting-situational functions (3 and 7) are subdued and only accept information in cases where the data accepted cannot be confidently evaluated by one's valued accepting functions. In the role function, information is accepted consciously but is subdued as it opposes the base function. It's also a contact function, which is why it is seen as somewhat of an importance to an individual, but definitely not emphasized. In the ignoring function, information is accepted even moreso on a situational basis because a person is strong in this area but neglects it over their preferred strength in the base function. Information is mostly ignored here and instead accepted by one's suggestive function.

Producing-situational functions (2 and 6) are situational since they only produce information that has been accepted by our valued-evaluatory functions. One's creative function produces strong and valued information that must make contact with the environment for their ego to be heard. However, new information is only produced in situations the base function can accept information. One's mobilizing function is inert, weak and valued, so information produced here isn't quite understood consciously but still acts as a driver for the creative function.

Understanding this function dichotomy is integral in fully realizing how types metabolize information as it forms the "information pathway" that connects our Model A together.

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Basically, the rational types that are :Ti::Fe: accepting are obstinate. And the irrational types that use :Ti: or :Fe: demonstrating functions are also obstinate. Everything else is yielding.

edit: And this sucks, I'm depressed, Romney lost. I need to drink. I feel like I'm about to be raped and I don't know what that's like, but I feel sure.
That's it, I'm never voting again. What's the point if people aren't more concerned about the important issues.

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Originally Posted by Saberstorm

Yielding and obstinate- what does interest mean in these statements?

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It was mentioned in the Renin research results article that "interest" means something closer to an occupation, hobby, project, rather than for example your music interests.

I haven't paid much attention to this dichotomy and don't use it in typing myself, so I don't have much to comment on it. At the risk of interpreting it too literally, perhaps Obstinate types are more likely than Yielding type to do such things as offer loans to friends and family members, provide funding for projects of others, open joint accounts, share credit cards, and so on.


COMPLIANCE | OBSTINACY

Yileding/Compliant (ExTx and IxFx):
- For the Yielding type, personal resources falls into their "inner personal space" (i.e. something that cannot be compromised), which is outlined with a "personal boundary", while interests constitute an object to be manipulated. Interest is evoked only if it can be supported by an adequate, corresponding resource or opportunity.
- Yielding type, while interacting with other people, freely express their interests (they readily share photographs, voice their disagreements, consider counterarguments, are ready to share their interests with other people and collaborate on them). These types clearly delineate interests as "my own" and "those of others".
- Yielding types protect themselves during conflicts over resources, but they do not monitor encroachments on their interests. If anyone attempts to claim their resources, thus intruding into their "personal space", they react sharply, which can even seem a bit over the edge and aggressive. (This reaction is associated with "inviolability" of their resources.)

Obstinate (ExFx and IxTx):
- For Obstinate types, their interest fall into their "personal ("inviolable") space", which is outlined with a "personal boundary", while resources are an object to be manipulated. In the presence of an interest, their will seek suitable resources and opportunities.
- The Obstinate interacting with other people freely operates with their resources (they can "share" and "trade" them, purposefully replenish them and use them up). They are acutely aware of the dividing line between their own resources and those of others.
- Obstinate types guard themselves from intrusions into their personal sphere of interests, while at the same time they pay no heed to intrusions on their resources. If someone tries to impose their interests on Obstinate types, thus intruding into their personal space, their reaction will be sufficiently deterring and sharp (such a reaction occurs in cases when other's interests do not become their interests).

Notes:
Key concepts of this dichotomy are "personal space", "resources" (what we have available at our disposal) and "personal interests" (what is meant here are not personal interests, but pursuits we find interesting and feel personal responsibility and attachment to). "Personal space" is something that an individual feels is an integral part of himself or herself, cannot renounce it, and will defend it from impositions and intrusions from outside. For the Yielding types, this space is occupied by their resources, while for the Obstinate types—by their interests. Correspondingly, Yielding types manipulate interests (freely change them, adjust them in accordance with their resources) and Obstinate—their resources (they adjust them to their interests).

Examples:

Yielding: "Affairs can be yours and those of other people who can compel you with their requests" "Interests that cannot be realized eventually become uninteresting. I let go of old interests easily" "I try to limit my affairs, how many things I'm involved with, how many things I am suppose to do. Potentially this is interesting to me but I will not undertake it" "If I know that I can't do something, I will reject it and will forget about it" "If I have an interest, it is, naturally, reflected by capabilities. If something is impossible I won't go wasting my time and effort on it." "I don't understand people who list all kinds of interests... personally I clearly know what my capabilities are"

Obstinate: "I never let go of my favorite occupations. I will do them at expense of sleep, food..." "I certainly won't abandon it.... I'm inclined to squeeze the situation to the very end" "I can't let go of my interests out of fear of destruction and loss of my personality" "My interests are at the limits of my physical capabilities. When my physical capabilities show me their limits—I back away, but I will do this only as a very last resort... but even then I will not abandon them but "postpone" them and await the moment when I have sufficient resources. I won't let go of my interests, even though the resources are already insufficient..."

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Originally Posted by siuntal

Obstinate: "I never let go of my favorite occupations. I will do them at expense of sleep, food..." "I certainly won't abandon it.... I'm inclined to squeeze the situation to the very end" "I can't let go of my interests out of fear of destruction and loss of my personality" "My interests are at the limits of my physical capabilities. When my physical capabilities show me their limits—I back away, but I will do this only as a very last resort... but even then I will not abandon them but "postpone" them and await the moment when I have sufficient resources. I won't let go of my interests, even though the resources are already insufficient..."

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:D Okay! I'm definitely obstinate. I'm terribly stubborn about things I know I want. I don't always know when I want things...but when I do happen to know, I know for sure, and I won't let them go even if there are currently limitations on whatever it is I'm after.
Thanks siuntal.

Yielding <---------------------- (<-- EII-Fi/ILE-Ti to EII-Ne/ILE-Ne to/from IEE-Ne/LII-Ne to IEE-Fi/LII-Ti --->) -------------------> Obstinate
RATIONAL TYPES (+subtypes) ARE THE MOST YIELDING/OBSTINATE, IRRATIONAL TYPES(+SUBTYPES) ARE AMBIGUOUS, ESPECIALLY IF "AMBIVERTEED"


Considering I am really ambiguous about my rational functions (EII vs LII), it is safe to assume that I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THIS FUCKING DICHOTOMY MEANS IN MY LIFE PLEASE HELP


I am very wary of my own resources simply because I don't have enough and feel that it's not fair that others should be able to take what I don't have, and I didn't know people actually could give up interests in favor of other people's interests? Um... what am I missing here? I'm not going to give up learning socionics so I can go socialize and play baseball with stupid sports people, my interests are clear and they're mine, and I know that other's interests are inferior.

Yielding/obstinate is really hard to explain. I'll come up with a question that makes it clear, if indirectly, though. It's about focus on means vs. ends somehow though, not money or hobbies or whatever. I'm also not sure if the concept of "more yielding/obstinate" is relevant, just like asking whether a lark or an owl is more of a bird is not relevant. It's about prototypicality, not degrees of membership.

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Originally Posted by Schildmaid

Yielding/obstinate is really hard to explain. I'll come up with a question that makes it clear, if indirectly, though. It's about focus on means vs. ends somehow though, not money or hobbies or whatever. I'm also not sure if the concept of "more yielding/obstinate" is relevant, just like asking whether a lark or an owl is more of a bird is not relevant. It's about prototypicality, not degrees of membership.

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well they way they put it it makes it seem like yielding/obstinate are reactions to that which affects their sphere of ownership, and people aren't programmede to only perform one reaction in the same degree of intensity, someone who is Yielding might eventually feel the need to stand by their interests when they are threatened enough. But yeah I really don't understand this.

This is a very interesting one. Some people see me as way too compliant. Oh well, I survive. Not the end of the world. My time... plenty of time for it later on.
However, I'm not inclined to give something when it is asked. I shut down more than become very visibly against of it. Personal favors might be the word in other words not playing favorites.

I've noticed this particularly in the Alpha quadra. ILEs I've known are hyper-concerned about their things and even in relationships don't like their partners touching their stuff. SEIs don't seem quite so easily agitated as ILEs in respect to physical objects but they do maintain very clear boundaries between the world and their living space, and get angered at any intrusion. SEIs and ILEs' attitude toward money also seems counterintuitive; they're both stingy and hate parting with it, but seem to manage to do it often; I'm not sure how. ESEs are much more chill and informal about welcoming people inside their homes; their only real concern to the extent that they have concern is that the experience is pleasant for the visitor. They're also better with money than SEIs, but also less concerned about parting from it and will instantly pay hundreds of dollars if a friend is in need without a thought. I think LIIs' attitude toward money is similar to ESEs'. LIIs also don't really care too much about their physical possessions compared to ILEs, but are better at figuring out what they need/don't need; ILEs and SEIs seem to have hoarding tendencies and don't like to part with their possessions any more than their money.

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Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman

I've noticed this particularly in the Alpha quadra. ILEs I've known are hyper-concerned about their things and even in relationships don't like their partners touching their stuff. SEIs don't seem quite so easily agitated as ILEs in respect to physical objects but they do maintain very clear boundaries between the world and their living space, and get angered at any intrusion. SEIs and ILEs' attitude toward money also seems counterintuitive; they're both stingy and hate parting with it, but seem to manage to do it often; I'm not sure how. ESEs are much more chill and informal about welcoming people inside their homes; their only real concern to the extent that they have concern is that the experience is pleasant for the visitor. They're also better with money than SEIs, but also less concerned about parting from it and will instantly pay hundreds of dollars if a friend is in need without a thought. I think LIIs' attitude toward money is similar to ESEs'. LIIs also don't really care too much about their physical possessions compared to ILEs, but are better at figuring out what they need/don't need; ILEs and SEIs seem to have hoarding tendencies and don't like to part with their possessions any more than their money.

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Hmm I’ve never noticed this. I easily part with my things. In fact I just brought a bag of clothes to goodwill last weekend. I Marie Kondo my shit on a regular basis and try to keep the amount of stuff I own to a minimum.

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Originally Posted by Poptart

Hmm I’ve never noticed this. I easily part with my things. In fact I just brought a bag of clothes to goodwill last weekend. I Marie Kondo my shit on a regular basis and try to keep the amount of stuff I own to a minimum.

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Like I said, I don't think SEIs care so much about physical things as a sense of private space.

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Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman

Like I said, I don't think SEIs care so much about physical things as a sense of private space.

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Sorry, I think I was just confused by your last sentence where you said "ILEs and SEIs seem to have hoarding tendencies and don't like to part with their possessions any more than their money".

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Originally Posted by Poptart

Sorry, I think I was just confused by your last sentence where you said "ILEs and SEIs seem to have hoarding tendencies and don't like to part with their possessions any more than their money".

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Ah yeah I did say that. Yeah, OK, I don’t know what to think. I’ve had a long day. :/

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Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman

Ah yeah I did say that. Yeah, OK, I don’t know what to think. I’ve had a long day. :/

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Y--you don't know what to think?... YOU??????? I'm scared

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Originally Posted by Dr PissBender

Y--you don't know what to think?... YOU??????? I'm scared

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??

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Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman

??

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I think it was meant as a joke, because LII think 24/7

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Originally Posted by Dr PissBender

Y--you don't know what to think?... YOU??????? I'm scared

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You'd be surprised on how many times LII not to think about anything at all and just space out to their own hologram.

https://c.tenor.com/XsGlEQ0MHmoAAAAC/clapping-clap.gif