[Psyche-Yoga] Sexta 6

http://i.imgur.com/cCaVn4W.jpg
Sexta 6

Types: FEVL, LVEF, LEVF, FVEL

[1&4] Result aspect: L and F

[2&3] Process aspect: V and E

The sixth sexta concentrates on relaxing and falling back on the existing material pleasures. They focus heavily the positive and pleasant aspects of life while actively trying to minimize the negative, partly through their optimistic nature. They enjoy toned down but positive emotional expressions and generally are interested in scientific endeavors, but pursue those mostly for the sake of it rather than with an end product in mind. They tend to have a very moderated approach towards most areas, and are careful to not let their ideas run away with them, and thus are able to achieve a constructive friendly-mannered discussion that doesn’t drag on, becomes hostile or leads nowhere. They have a gravitation towards the beautiful, and seek to create beauty or at least be surrounded with it. This goes for both material and artistic endeavors.

Dealing with the negative aspects or problems with themselves or others is a common problem in this sexta. This suppression can leave the issues as ”ghosts” that come back to haunt them later, or cause difficulties in accepting or overcoming personal weaknesses. They also tend to downplay or avoid emotional displays, and can like other sextas with result oriented Physics be both greedy or avoid the physical aspects of life.

I think this is my 'sexta' Sounds alot like alpha quadra in socionics. :biggrin:

LVEF or LEVF here. I lean towards LVEF but I was discussing a questionnaire I filled out over the Psyche-Yoga Facebook group and a good argument for LEVF was made. :shrug:

Okay, I reread the descriptions Megane posted, and I think LVEF is most likely, followed by FVEL. 2V and 3E are what I related to the best. I don't really relate that much to the dogmatism and know-it-all-ness of 1L but since my 4th function is probably F, then by default I must be 1L.

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Originally Posted by Hacim

I find it interesting that at least 2 of the human type examples used in this sexta are often typed LII (Pascal and Chekhov), yet they are apparently the equivalent of duals (and thus very different types) in Psyche Yoga. Maybe it has more to do with Enneagram (Pascal as a 5, Chekhov as a 9).

Not saying that there is any correlation whatsoever, just an interesting observation. I suppose this sexta does vibe Alpha in some ways.

I consider my type in this system to be either Pascal (LEVF) or Einstein (LVEF), leaning towards the former. Another school year is beginning, and yet I have more typology to discover!

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I'm having a similar dilemma. At least I know my sexta. Enneagram-wise I'm probably 5 with a strong 9 fix. But I there are people who will argue that I'm type 9. When it comes down to it, my greatest fear is of feeling useless and incompetent, and that would fit 5 more than 9, I think. Also, I relate better to the head triad than the gut triad.

I am going to post the questionnaire from the Facebook group here and my responses to it and I'll see what you think. Even though I relate mostly to the E3 description, I feel like I'm more emotionally in tune with myself and others and somewhat more expressive, but still rather restrained. I'm concerned about appropriate emotional expression, and that seems to be common in both E2 and E3.

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Originally Posted by chips and underwear

I'm having a similar dilemma. At least I know my sexta. Enneagram-wise I'm probably 5 with a strong 9 fix. But I there are people who will argue that I'm type 9. When it comes down to it, my greatest fear is of feeling useless and incompetent, and that would fit 5 more than 9, I think. Also, I relate better to the head triad than the gut triad.

I am going to post the questionnaire from the Facebook group here and my responses to it and I'll see what you think. Even though I relate mostly to the E3 description, I feel like I'm more emotionally in tune with myself and others and somewhat more expressive, but still rather restrained. I'm concerned about appropriate emotional expression, and that seems to be common in both E2 and E3.

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Ah, interesting. I think that oftentimes I'm too afraid of goofing up emotionally, so I have a hard time "letting loose." But when I'm in a good mood and in comfortable company I have no problem telling jokes and contributing to conversation, just I have little energy to do these things.

What I relate to in 2E is this: "Their love for emotional games and prodding in the emotions of others can lead to hostile reactions, due to overstepping emotional boundaries." I think that I learn socially by experimentation; not sure how individualistic a trait that is. I suck at social "games" unless I am the one making the rules.
What I relate to in 3V is this: "Nonconformist tendencies and actively (Though not necessarily directly) questions authority, preventing hasty or rushed decisions that have not been properly thought through. Strong knowledge of what they do not want." I can relate to this more than I can relate to 2V or even 2E.

For anyone that knows me in real life, 1L and 4F would be pretty obvious - I'm like a walking caricature of these descriptions. Not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing... For what it's worth, I don't think I come off as a know-it-all unless you ask my opinion of something, or ask me to explain why I did something in a certain way.

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Originally Posted by chips and underwear

I think this is my 'sexta' Sounds alot like alpha quadra in socionics. :biggrin:

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i've been mulling this over and i dont think any of these sextas are meant to correspond to any socionics quadras. What I see are possible overlaps, socionics quadras spanning more than one sexta, as well as certain sextas potentially appealing to members of several different socionic quadras. I think megane set up these polls to kind of explore the correlation between PY and socionic self-typings, so I dont think we should be jumping to these conclusions or swaying people's minds like that.

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Originally Posted by Hacim

Ah, interesting. I think that oftentimes I'm too afraid of goofing up emotionally, so I have a hard time "letting loose." But when I'm in a good mood and in comfortable company I have no problem telling jokes and contributing to conversation, just I have little energy to do these things.

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Same here. I feel I'm quite emotional and rather expressive without it being overdone like a 2E but I also have all of the emotional vulnerabilities of a 3E.

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Originally Posted by Hacim

What I relate to in 2E is this: "Their love for emotional games and prodding in the emotions of others can lead to hostile reactions, due to overstepping emotional boundaries." I think that I learn socially by experimentation; not sure how individualistic a trait that is. I suck at social "games" unless I am the one making the rules.

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That's the part of 2E I don't relate to. I never like to intrude and prod in on people although I admit I can be quite curious sometimes regarding peoples' emotional drama. I don't like emotional games. It seems manipulative and dishonest. Prefer things to be more straightforward.

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Originally Posted by Hacim

What I relate to in 3V is this: "Nonconformist tendencies and actively (Though not necessarily directly) questions authority, preventing hasty or rushed decisions that have not been properly thought through. Strong knowledge of what they do not want." I can relate to this more than I can relate to 2V or even 2E.

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I relate to this too. I still think I relate to 2V more overall but I could be wrong about my typing.

When you get a chance, could you look over my questionnaire that I posted?

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Originally Posted by Hacim

For anyone that knows me in real life, 1L and 4F would be pretty obvious - I'm like a walking caricature of these descriptions. Not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing... For what it's worth, I don't think I come off as a know-it-all unless you ask my opinion of something, or ask me to explain why I did something in a certain way.

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Okay, maybe I'm misunderstanding 1L. @Suz also mentioned that the dogmatic, know-it-all-ness could be more 1V like. I do feel like I'm most confident in my logical thoughts and my opinions about things. I know why I do things a certain way. Why I think the things I do. Sure my opinion can be swayed, but there's got to be good convincing argument.

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Originally Posted by Suz

i've been mulling this over and i dont think any of these sextas are meant to correspond to any socionics quadras. What I see are possible overlaps, socionics quadras spanning more than one sexta, as well as certain sextas potentially appealing to members of several different socionic quadras. I think megane set up these polls to kind of explore the correlation between PY and socionic self-typings, so I dont think we should be jumping to these conclusions or swaying people's minds like that.

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Yeah, you're right. It's probably just a coincidence but I still can't help seeing the resemblance and seeing relationships between different systems.

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Originally Posted by chips and underwear

That's the part of 2E I don't relate to. I never like to intrude and prod in on people although I admit I can be quite curious sometimes regarding peoples' emotional drama. I don't like emotional games. It seems manipulative and dishonest. Prefer things to be more straightforward.

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Hmm- maybe my interpretation of an emotional "game" is wrong in this context. I was more thinking of light teasing, which in my experience requires emotional expression in order to let the other person know what you're doing. Maybe I just don't know what an emotional "game" entails in this context. Care to elaborate?

Maybe I'm LVEF after all and I misunderstood something.

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When you get a chance, could you look over my questionnaire that I posted?

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Will do.

My questionnaire fits this sexta description better than sexta 2. I was going between LVEF and LVFE. Overall the tone of this sexta just fits my attitudes better, not that it fits in every way.

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Originally Posted by Hacim

Hmm- maybe my interpretation of an emotional "game" is wrong in this context. I was more thinking of light teasing, which in my experience requires emotional expression in order to let the other person know what you're doing. Maybe I just don't know what an emotional "game" entails in this context. Care to elaborate?

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I enjoy light teasing with people I'm comfortable with. I guess in terms of emotional games, I was thinking more in terms of manipulation. Flattery to make someone feel good but not necessarily sincere. Or on the converse, making someone feel bad on purpose because you don't approve of them or whatever. Yeah, I'm probably misinterpreting the definition.

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Originally Posted by chips and underwear

I enjoy light teasing with people I'm comfortable with. I guess in terms of emotional games, I was thinking more in terms of manipulation. Flattery to make someone feel good but not necessarily sincere. Or on the converse, making someone feel bad on purpose because you don't approve of them or whatever. Yeah, I'm probably misinterpreting the definition.

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No, maybe you have more experience in this realm. I am much younger than the majority of this forum. :oops: That description in particular is quite vague.

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Originally Posted by Hacim

No, maybe you have more experience in this realm. I am much younger than the majority of this forum. :oops: That description in particular is quite vague.

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I'm 30-something but people think I'm younger than that. I don't act my age being infantile erotic style and all.

I don't necessarily have alot of personal experience in this realm, just what I've read and heard about from other people. Maybe some personal experiences but more limited.

I did this test and it gave me the following result:

V = 19
L = 27
E = 9
F = 9

1L and 2V are pretty clear, but since 3E fits better than 3F I'm going with LVEF. It would be nice to read the type's descriptions when it's available.

On that test, I got 26L, 13E, 13V, and 6F. No help for my dilemma. I still identify with 3V more that 2V, but it would be a stretch to call me "skilled" with emotion.

Any opinions? I'm considering LEVF and LVEF.

Test results match what I thought I would be from the descriptions:

The balance of the PY-functions:

Will: 12
Logic: 18
Emotion: 13
Physics: 9
Your PY-Type: L E VF

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Originally Posted by Hacim

On that test, I got 26L, 13E, 13V, and 6F. No help for my dilemma. I still identify with 3V more that 2V, but it would be a stretch to call me "skilled" with emotion.

Any opinions? I'm considering LEVF and LVEF.

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Try the questionnaire I posted.

I would guess LEVF if you find yourself identified with more with 3V.

Sure 2E is supposedly 'skilled' with emotion but LII also have 1-D Fe.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that socionics type may have some effect on how PY type manifests.

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Originally Posted by chips and underwear

Try the questionnaire I posted.

I would guess LEVF if you find yourself identified with more with 3V.

Sure 2E is supposedly 'skilled' with emotion but LII also have 1-D Fe.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that socionics type may have some effect on how PY type manifests.

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Yeah, probably the biggest problem is thinking in terms of "which PY type resembles my type, LII" instead of forgetting Socionics.

I'll settle with LEVF - it fits me decently. Also, I can't change the poll above. 3V for the win?

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Originally Posted by Hacim

Yeah, probably the biggest problem is thinking in terms of "which PY type resembles my type, LII" instead of forgetting Socionics.

I'll settle with LEVF - it fits me decently. Also, I can't change the poll above. 3V for the win?

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I don't think there's *that* much correlation between PY and socionics but socionics type may affect the way your PY type manifests and vice versa.

I think LEVF works for you.

I've not read the Sexta 5 or 6 profile descriptions yet, but so far, I would be an introverted version of EVFL or a variant of LEFV and/or VEFL.

https://41.media.tumblr.com/66872442...c7w3o1_500.jpg
FEVL (Dumas)

[1F] First Physics: The motto of life for the FEVL is, “I live in the real world.” They have a powerful ability to enjoy the material world as it is, both in nature and in human relations; these are the most important the ability to the FEVL. Enjoying all the benefits offered by the material world: comfort, health, fitness, wealth, beauty, and the other material pleasures naturally follows from it. Any form of labor preformed by the FEVL is quite admirable for the result that they they reached themselves. They love the material side so greatly that it creates a ghostly illusion of purpose for the FEVL. Clothes, home furnishings, food, or anything else tangible, is all done with style because of the FEVL.

[2E] Second Emotion: FEVL is extremely emotionally flexible. They have a strong ability to identify the moods of others, along with a subtle sense of light-hearted humor; this is typical for FEVL. They are often referred to as the soul of the social environment. FEVL loves to make a lot of friends, as they love being sociable, welcoming guests and they love to entertain people. If necessary, FEVL is able to skillfully adapt to the mood of others and act cheerfully to support all kinds of people, attracting them to their side. But if FEVL wants to make it clear to the someone that they are unpleasant to them, they do not hesitate to scold that person for their rude or unpleasant behavior.

[3V] Third Willpower: FEVL feels that the world perpetuated as an arena of struggles between different forces and that the best way to survive in this struggle is to be able to maneuver between these forces. They know that each force has its weaknesses and those weaknesses can be used to your advantage, so that somewhere the FEVL can find the opportunity where they have complete control over their lives. “Everyone needs to stop and search for new opportunities, instead of rushing into things too quickly.” this is one of the FEVL's favorite phrases; because from their point of view, even people that have wronged others still have a chance to become a better person. For this reason, FEVL attaches a great importance to making new friends, connections and acquaintances.

[4L] Fourth Logic: FEVL is not inclined towards intellectualism and sophistication. Abstract scientific principles and books of wisdom are of minimum value to the FEVL, considering the philosophy that anything can be learned from personal experience. However, they are still deeply fascinated by abstract reasoning and scientific pursuits; yet they themselves are attracted to morals and the evaluation of good character personally. FEVL strongly believes that their adherence to principles allow you to fully enjoy life. FEVL are overall characterized by a desire to listen to logical arguments, just for the sake of listening and making their own decisions independently.

Dumas is just too charming and cute. :love:

https://41.media.tumblr.com/32dc123d...c7w3o1_500.jpg
LVEF (Einstein)

[1L] First Logic: The key feature of the paradigm in LVEF, is their desire to explain the world around them through logical principles and pure reason. In this way, LVEF is able to safely to revise their logical principles that were developed over long periods of time, to make sure that their ideas weren't incapable of offering revolutionary solutions even if they do not seem to fit into common sense. LVEF are normally attracted to the non-trivial, efficiency and novelty of their logical solutions. Moreover, the ability itself to move away from the already well-established solutions, the LVEF especially values these abstract ideas. ​​The primary value for LVEF is innovation and erudition, which is exactly why the LVEF represents the scientist archetype. Sometimes, LVEF can pull together the disparate attempts to solve a fundamental problem through via analytical synthesis, pushing the entire concept towards success.

[2V] Second Willpower: LVEF is characterized by their tendency to evaluate the correctness of ideas most impartially, without making any rebates on the social status of the author’s ideas, not even to their liking or disliking of the person. LVEF is committed to active cooperation with other people, always open to discussion. They know how to defend their innocence, insisting on the principles that seem to be faithful to them, as they do not hesitate to be misunderstood in conversation at all. (“God does not play dice” - Einstein said, not wanting to promote one idea blatantly over the other, even though it seemed so strange because of the probabilistic principle of quantum mechanics).

[3E] Third Emotion: The motto of the LVEF’s attitude is reflected by the quote of Baruch Spinoza: “Do not cry, do not laugh, but to understand.” This leads to the fact that, LVEF has a strong desire to control their emotions which is only coupled by their inability to do so accurately. Often appearing very serious and cold in relation to other people that cause the stormy emotions within the LVEF. Their ability to control the emotions is so that they can effectively address the challenges that are enveloped in emotional distress, wasted power and most importantly, wasted time with irrational emotions. “Fear is the mind-killer, fear is deprivation of aid in the understanding,” this quote best represents the reasoning for the LVEF’s emotional suppression.

[4F] Fourth Physics: LVEF perceives the physical world strictly through the principle of minimalism, that they should be content with the minimum amount as much as possible. There are some things the LVEF wants but doesn't need, it is better to do without it. There have even been some cases when LVEF sought to get rid of expensive items. The LVEF’s clothes are characteristically modest and simple because of their desire to wear one thing for many years. Generally, the material world is the least important in value to the LVEF.

I relate to every single word of that LVEF profile. Even the picture looks like me- the goofy nerd archetype.

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Originally Posted by chips and underwear

I relate to every single word of that LVEF profile.

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Given that the LVEF description contains quotes of both Einstein and Spinoza plus a Dune reference, I can say the same.

https://41.media.tumblr.com/05cc0d80...c7w3o1_400.jpg
LEVF (Pascal)

[1L] First Logic: The main objective for the LEVF is to comprehend the laws, ideas and knowledge of the world around them. Therefore, LEVF very often go into scientific fields, especially in computer science and information technology. They are also characterized by their extremely subtle perception of the ideologies of creating chaos into order. It is no coincidence that Lewis Carroll is one of the most outstanding representatives of this type, not only was he a professional mathematician, but the writer of a whimsical and unusual book called “Alice in Wonderland”, many of his books would reflect creative thinking and strong use of the imagination.

[2E] Second Emotion: LEVF are open to the feelings of other people, perfectly being able to empathize in a very altruistic manner, ready to help those who need their help. For LEVF, they place a lot of fidelity to one’s word, listening to the entire conversation and never doubt the feelings of the other person even once. They can still sympathize with such perceived tragedies, even if the situation is not that hopeless; the feeling despair is universal and the LEVF understands that.

[3V] Third Willpower: When the LEVF is given very difficult life-changing decisions, especially those that are against high ethical standards to themselves and others, this will lead to a certain predominance of a melancholic mood in the LVEF. It is especially difficult for the LEVF given transference of guilt So often LEVF prefers to hide away in solitude, voluntarily preferring to live a secluded life.

[4F] Fourth Physics: LEVF invests into material world at minimum requirements, their belongings are often very austere and they prefer casual clothes that help them blend into the crowd. Actually, their penchant for stealth is due to their low willpower and physics, causes the desire to want to be alone. On the other hand, focusing on the minimum value of the material world and the fact that they see the imperfection of the world around them; they try to minimize contact with the external world.

Pascal sounds really depressing.

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Originally Posted by chips and underwear

Pascal sounds really depressing.

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Ive had a boss i think was LEVF...his life didnt seem depressing at all... He does kind of tend towards a secluded lifestyle, but he's not unhappy with that. Very kind, polite, empathetic person.

@chips_and_underwear I havent read it all yet but according to this russian website (http://www.strannik.de/lovesyntax/syntax.htm)when you switch the two letters in the middle you get your ideal partner for "true love" (aka agapé). That would make LEVFs your soulmates.

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Originally Posted by cldwlker

@chips_and_underwear I havent read it all yet but according to this russian website (http://www.strannik.de/lovesyntax/syntax.htm)when you switch the two letters in the middle you get your ideal partner for "true love" (aka agapé). That would make LEVFs your soulmates.

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You also switch 1 and 4 as well.

So for LVEF, the most ideal of all is FEVL, Dumas. Even better than LEVF, Pascal which is still pretty darn good.

To keep it simple your agape partner has the letters in the exact opposite order as you.

Yeah, I couldn't see a LVEF - LEVF couple. They seem rather similar.

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Originally Posted by cldwlker

@chips_and_underwear I havent read it all yet but according to this russian website (http://www.strannik.de/lovesyntax/syntax.htm)when you switch the two letters in the middle you get your ideal partner for "true love" (aka agapé). That would make LEVFs your soulmates.

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I don't which one I am anymore. On @Megane's descriptions, I think I fit LVEF a little bit better but still fit LEVF very well. On that link above, I seem to fit LEVF a little better than LVEF, even the dark side of it.

Maybe I'll just partially agape myself then.

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Originally Posted by Hacim

Yeah, I couldn't see a LVEF - LEVF couple. They seem rather similar.

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Good for friends, probably less good for a LTR.

I think a LVEF-LVEF couple would be even stranger.

This bit on http://www.strannik.de/lovesyntax/1logic.htm - funnily applicable to me. I also relate nearly 100% to the description itself.

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"Very recognizable handwriting "dogmatic." It is ugly, and difficult to read in its principles approaching shorthand (think the inventor of shorthand was first logic). The main formal features of "dogmatic" handwriting as follows: all of the spellings of letters chosen the most simple and quick, and also links between the letters are short, direct and adapted to the most cursive. In short, writing the first logic is rational and neglect clarity and aesthetics for speed and simplicity."

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Going off the same site's resources, I'd be closer to LVEF, I think. I very much want help in (and am receptive to) the emotional area, rather that being "flexible and confident" in the area. But I'm not having the "best fit type" moment that I had in Socionics with LII. I relate to 3V and 3E both, so I'll call myself L[E=V]F and hopefully stop attempting to reduce myself to 4 small letters.

@Megane, enough with the dillydally... out with the FVEL description!! :P

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Originally Posted by Hacim

This bit on http://www.strannik.de/lovesyntax/1logic.htm - funnily applicable to me. I also relate nearly 100% to the description itself.



Going off the same site's resources, I'd be closer to LVEF, I think. I very much want help in (and am receptive to) the emotional area, rather that being "flexible and confident" in the area. But I'm not having the "best fit type" moment that I had in Socionics with LII. I relate to 3V and 3E both, so I'll call myself L[E=V]F and hopefully stop attempting to reduce myself to 4 small letters.

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I just don't know if I'm as emotionally dry as that Einstein description on that Russian site depicts. I don't hate sentimentality. unless it's grossly overdone. I'm not indifferent to the beauty either. So maybe not emotionally dry, but definitely vulnerable emotionally. I seem to want help with both matters and E and V. Heck, F too and even L at times as crazy as that soundsj. I'm just gonna call myself 1L+4F. Whichever one you take, I'll take the other and then we can be agape on 2/3.

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Originally Posted by Suz

@Megane, enough with the dillydally... out with the FVEL description!! :P

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He's saving the best for last.

This FVEL description had better be epic!

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Originally Posted by chips and underwear

You also switch 1 and 4 as well.

So for LVEF, the most ideal of all is FEVL, Dumas. Even better than LEVF, Pascal which is still pretty darn good.

To keep it simple your agape partner has the letters in the exact opposite order as you.

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Ah yes, my bad *goes back into the bushes*

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Originally Posted by cldwlker

Ah yes, my bad *goes back into the bushes*

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http://daily-gif.com/gifs/homer-simpson-bush.gif

https://40.media.tumblr.com/0a87f98a...c7w3o1_500.jpg

FVEL (Chekhov)

[1F] First Physics: FVEL seeks to enjoy the finer aspects of life, showing confidence in their current position in life and knowing how to appreciate what they have in the moment. The FVEL particularly values material goods that contribute to bodily pleasures; food, sports, and much more. If necessary, FVEL is also very adaptable to any physical conditions of life and to derive pleasure from them. Some FVEL were able to adapt to the seemingly impossible conditions of life, like in the scorching Sahara desert or an arctic tundra.

[2V] Second Willpower: FVEL is characterized by their calm self-confidence, enabling them to remove themselves easily from difficult situations. Strong willpower manifests in the FVEL’s incredible patience and foresight on the difficulties of life, it is best illustrated by those who are patient, strong-willed and willing to work their hardest until they reach a solution best suited for themselves and their loved ones.

[3E] Third Emotion: Third Emotions: The primary emotional state of the FVEL is patience and serenity, where comfortable positions in the material world uphold priority over idealization and deeper meanings. FVEL pays primarily close attention towards emotional manifestations, they have an incredible ability to control and suppress their emotions whenever the time comes, simply because FVEL emphasizes their preference of minimizing drama and escalating conflicts. This gives the FVEL an inner sense of compassion and forgiveness towards others.

[4L] Fourth Logic: FVEL’s perspective on logic will be co-currently placed on the current situation, compared to other functions however, understanding the internal framework of something is not the FVEL’s top priority. The FVEL is not typically inclined to indulge in reasoning on the theme of what is right and what is wrong; they simply enjoy their lives without worrying about the details. “Live and let live” - that is their life principle.

I'm thinking LEVF might be most likely for my type after all after re-reading descriptions which would make FVEL my agape/dual. :love: :love: :love:

I can totally see this type as my agape/dual. While FEVL might offer more initial attraction, FVEL seems to offer more long-term potential.

FVEL, looks gentle, yet strong and you can have all of the free coffee you want. :biggrin:

I often worry about my capacity to be strong in the most trying circumstances, yet this is something that FVEL seems to do quite well. I sometimes will oddly enough imagine myself in really trying situations figuring out if I could cope well, however I lack confidence and I would just prefer life would be easy without much struggle. I could stand to be more 'live and let live' and not intellectualize everything so much. So yeah, I could use an FVEL in my life. I'm probably 3V more than 2V, my whole thread about my concern about being weak and passive and not amounting to much in life would reflect that.

Who are all these FEVL's?