Do EIE 4s exist, or is it just an old myth that's never really been put into life?
Printable View
Do EIE 4s exist, or is it just an old myth that's never really been put into life?
I thought the whole stereotype of EIEs was some heart-based enneagram? Frankly, if to the best of your knowledge you've identified one, then to the best of your knowledge they exist.
The stereotype is much closer to ennea 3 or 2 though.Quote:
Originally Posted by GuavaDrunk
The ones I know are more like 7s with 3 or 4 in tritype.
Edit: One other thing is that the two I have been closest to were both sx/so which might be why I lean toward 7 core for them so either could be 3 or 4 core. :shrug:
Well I'm 3w4, but I can most definitely see a 4 EIE. They'd definitely be quirkier, weirder, less image conscious than I am..
Fay, I love your avatar picture btw. So Beta NF haha
aww, thanks I really like your avi too!Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarlettLux
I think most of the EIEs are 3s or maybe 2s. I see 4 to be rare for this type, though I might be wrong, it's still imagine oriented and emotionally heavy which is all in tune with Fe+Ni, only the emphasis it puts on individuality and identity is kind of in constrast with Fe imo... I have a hard time seeing myself as Fe user, even though a lot of people do see me like one, because of that identity vs. image thing.
7 core? really? I see this hard to believe, 7 reminds me mostly on Ne ego.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aylen
Yeah, it could be that I am getting confused by their sx/so-ness. 7 in their tritype for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fay
I don't want to seem like an arguing pain in the ass, but Ni is more 6 enna wise that 7 imo... I think ST betas can easily be 7s , but NF betas are far closer to 6s... At least that's how I think of the whole ennea/quadra thing.
I think 4s are generally more self conscious and would internalize their emotions more than a typical EIE would.. of course it's theoretically possible but I can't think of anybody I've typed as EIE 4. If they're a 4 they're probably IEI
Most probably whole enneagram is a myth.
I wouldn't establish direct correlations between enneagrams and IEs, there are higher probabilities for some combinations than others but imo not enough to make them into solid rules (yet?)
Thinking of it I do know one EIE e4. They're indeed not socially extraverted, more prone to sitting on the sidelines, feeling out of place, and zero-ing in on people (influenced by likely sx-dom.) However they do selectively show high and wide-ranging emotionality. They dress in a noticeably dramatic and unusual style and have a long history of imagining themselves as characters in various stories or worlds, which leads to trying best as they can to act as in they were a part of those worlds.
yeah i don't see e4 necessarily correlating with Ni (though it obviously does with IEI). an LIE 4 sounds incredibly strange and unlikely, for example.
The relationship between enneagram and sociotypes hasn't ever been elucidated, but from personal experience of typing a whole bunch of ppl I haven't found a single EIE 4 in all these years. And while this doesn't prove that this combination is impossible, by this time I think that it's very very rare to say the least. Most of the EIEs who superficially seemed to be 4s at closer inspection turned out to be 3w4s putting their 4 wing to creative use, 6w7/7w6s inclined to artistic expression, and at times even 9s who were emulating the "undisciplined extravagance" associated with type 4.
In one Big5/Enneagram study conducted by the Enneagram Institute Type 4 correlated negatively with extraversion:
Here is some data from this forum, fwiw. See Subteigh's post #102.
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...-part-II/page3
SubT did a great job with the statistics, based on the information available at the time, but keep in mind that some of those people may have changed socionics, instincts, and/or enneagram self-typings (several times over) since it was posted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
Yes, changing one's type or enneagram typing does seem to happen a lot. (I always expect to see jitter in real-world data.) However, the data is very interesting as an indicator, if not a definition. For example, IEI's tend to be e4's, SLI's and ILI's and LSI's tend to be e5's, ESI's seem to be e6's, LIE's tend to be e8's, and ILE's are all over the map. This corresponds well with my own experience. Beyond that, though, all is shrouded in mist. The definitional lens is sharp only in some places.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aylen
I know a couple, yes. They are clearly different from the other EIEs I know that are of different enneatypes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fay
The ones I know are definitely not core 3's.Quote:
Originally Posted by silke
That -0.27 is hardly even significant and doesn't at all exclude the possibility of EIE 4's existing.Quote:
In one Big5/Enneagram study conducted by the Enneagram Institute Type 4 correlated negatively with extraversion:
this is how i'm interpreting the data in the Enneagram/Big 5 table (and i'm not sure i'm doing it correctly): assuming a normal distribution, a z-score of -0.27 calculates to about 39% probability (p = 0.39358). so that would mean there's a 39% chance that people who are Type 4 will also be Extraverted, and a 61% chance that they will score low on Extraversion (i.e. are Introverted).
another example: Type 1's Conscientious z-score = 0.66, calculating to about 75% probability (p = 0.745373), meaning there is a 75% probability that Type 1s are Conscientious, and a 25% probability that they score low on this trait.
i think these examples make sense for the respective types. but could someone who knows how to interpret statistical data verify if this is correct?
z-score to cumulative probability calculator: http://sampson.byu.edu/courses/z2p2z-calculator.html
I think it's more like the average E1 is more conscientious than 75% of the populationQuote:
Originally Posted by glam
Same for the E4 stuff, of course this is an average score, and it's not crazy strong so some E4's can very well be at least somewhat extraverted.
It's worth asking the difference between intro*spection* and introversion. My understanding is a lot of E4s are yes, due to the proximity of E5 on the symbol, influenced by a sense of unrelatedness to the outside and so on, leading them to more likely conceptualize answers to standard feeling triad questions e.g. "what is my value/significance" using a mining for their most authentic self (as opposed to seeking admiration).
Overall this falls more into the introspection category than introversion, albeit the former is related to the latter, just far from one-to-one.
If I had to be restrictive about what sociotype tends to or tends to not be a certain Jungian type, I'd say it's E5 that strikes me as most likely to have an introverted Jungian outlook, and that any such claims about E4 are merely derivative of this one. Note, of course, that this does depend on which of the many enneatype versions we're using.
Second remark is that sociotype is recording only core informational philosophy relevant to the ego, whereas Big 5 is surveying many facets, some not very related to cognitive philosophy (in fact, which ones are tested differs across inventory, so there's truly nothing exact, just statistical) of their version of extroversion. It's quite conceivable various instances of types like ILE or EIE for one thing are not extroverted in the Big 5 inventory.
For example, Einstein maybe. I tend to think he's typed as an introvert in the more statistically based instruments, but isn't he generally typed ILE?
He's an MBTI INTP and a socionics ILE. I see no reason to doubt that.Quote:
Originally Posted by chemical
I think EIEs can certainly be enneagram 4's. I think 4w3 would somewhat be more likely and EIE-Ni would somewhat be more likely to be type 4 than the Fe subtype.
Are you saying only an alpha would sport that hair? XDQuote:
Originally Posted by chips and underwear
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aylen
http://qph.is.quoracdn.net/main-qimg...t_to_webp=true
Beta styleQuote:
Originally Posted by chips and underwear
http://i318.photobucket.com/albums/m...psglioqust.jpg
:p
right here bubba
eie 4w5
I know one and enneagram 4w5, Ni subtype.
He's so introverted and it's like what have been said, they internalize their emotions more than the EIE enneagram 3.
He doesn't care about his appearence at all, He's also smart, artistic, calm and collected but there are times when he will create a scene and be dramatic.
He lives in isolation, very mistrustful of people but suprisingly he is very well liked by people.
I typed him IEI at first, as the only obvious function is Ni. But after knowing about the tempermants and all, I considered EIE.
But they sure are rare than other enneagrams.
No.
Never met one before.
Type 4 is :Fi: af.
:Fi: Ignoring and Type 4 makes no sense whatsoever.
Type 4s are: ExI, IEE-Fi, IEI
i know one EIE 4w5 sp/sx closely. i'm sure i've met 4w3 EIEs before, too.
Lol no type 4 is not Fi. Fi is Static judgments on feeling relationships. Type 4 can be Dynamic emotionality fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Olimpia
Type 4 is about endless self introspection, trying to constantly define how they personally feel about things at unhealthy levels. That's pretty Fi. Fi can include static relationship dynamics, but reducing it to that is foolish due to its limitations. Type 4s often have elitist tastes and personal views and opinions on things, in a manner that is also more typical of Fi than Fe. Fi is about internal static attitudes, whereas Fe is much more about impacting and maneuvering the emotional atmosphere of others. Someone who's Fi ignoring, personal static attitudes ignoring... how are they Type 4. I suppose you could argue for the potentiality of such a combo, because it's not as ridiculous as SEE 5... But still. Well again, never met an EIE 4 before, and likely never will. Same for ESE 4 for that matter.
If Fi wasn't a crucial factor, what else? Ni? In that case, Gamma NTs could be Type 4 too. I've never met a Logical type 4 however, and that makes even less sense than an EIE 4.
At the end of the day, Type 4 is characterized by strong Fi (not ignoring) and Ni to some extent. At least that has been my experience when typing people, and it makes sense to me when I read the descriptions.
P.S.: Theoretically an SEI should be able to be Type 4 because of strong dem Fi, no? The crux here seems to be the lack of Ni HA and lack of strong intuition in general. There are no type 4s in the Alpha quadra. This also correlates with the overall impression of Alpha being a "light" quadra etc. 4s exist in every quadra but Alpha. I thought that was an interesting finding.
they exist. SEI e4 isn't even that uncommon ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Olimpia
In my experience, ESI 4 exists, but not SEI 4. :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by lynn
4s either value Fi and/or Ni, ime.
The crucial factor is simply Feeling, not Fi. So yeah, no, Logical types aren't going to be 4.Quote:
Originally Posted by Olimpia
What limitations do you see with seeing Fi as Static attitudes? You yourself say the same. Where I said "feeling relationships" I meant the feelings themselves, the attitudes, in terms of how they relate to each other (so relationships between them).
I've seen EIE 4 but I think I already posted that here :)
You assume too much about the motivational-emotional patterns of Enneagram types based on the simplistic Socionics model on information processing side of cognition. There are some links between the two but unfortunately it's not this absolute in many cases because the aspects of information processing that Socionics cover are far from the complete picture in terms of explanatory power for the motivational-emotional side of things. So. Type 4 doesn't really need Intuition, just Feeling (this does seem like an absolute link because there is a match definitionally), though very strong focus on Se would go against it (not entirely sure if it would always exclude type 4 motivations tho').Quote:
P.S.: Theoretically an SEI should be able to be Type 4 because of strong dem Fi, no? The crux here seems to be the lack of Ni HA and lack of strong intuition in general. There are no type 4s in the Alpha quadra. This also correlates with the overall impression of Alpha being a "light" quadra etc. 4s exist in every quadra but Alpha. I thought that was an interesting finding.
I gave you an example of an SEI 4 in Melanie Lynskey some time back, when I thought she reminded me of the way you come across in picture/video. You can argue against that typing for her if you'd like, but there are numerous others.Quote:
Originally Posted by Olimpia
That looks more like Si, Fe, and Fi to me. . . . and SEIs, EIIs, IEIs could all fit that easily.Quote:
Originally Posted by the enneagram institute
Crazedrat is an EIE E4. Ask him. And LIE E4 exist too.
Ignoring IE is not exactly something that you are not aware of (it is more like correcting and silent). Even though you are more active with demonstrative it is something that you are bit less conscious of.
But definitely: why not 4. There are bit moody ESE's out there so that would be possible for EIE's even more so.
EIE 4w3 is a pretty common typing for celebrities at least. 4w5 is kind of weird since that's supposed to be super withdrawn though.
4 almost directly correlates with IEI but if another type was to be a 4 then certainly EIE could be.
This seems consistent with an EIE who is more spiritually driven. I would put Christopher McCandless (the subject of Into the Wild) as an EIE 4.Quote:
Originally Posted by Olimpia
Here is a summary of the cognitive functions + E type based on on a survey, I guess. No way to know how many typed correctly but it is interesting anyway.Quote:
In a recent survey, over 3000 participants indicated their Myers-Briggs personality types and their Enneagram types (including wings and instinctual variants if known). The compiled responses are as follows:
https://thoughtcatalog.com/heidi-pri...nneagram-2/18/
First page of article: https://thoughtcatalog.com/heidi-pri...e-enneagram-2/Quote:
It is important to indicate that the compiled data was entirely based on self-report. Participants were not required to obtain a professional assessment of their type or display an understanding of type theory, therefore a large margin of error must be taken into account when reviewing the results.TC mark
Is it even possible to be correctly typed in MBTI though?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aylen
http://data.whicdn.com/images/26867079/large.pngQuote:
Originally Posted by Wyrd
I believe I'm an EIE with a strong Ni subtype and I'm definitely an ennea 4w3. I focus a lot on my "victim" identity and typically view myself as some sort of tragic "fallen aristocrat" who must search for the aristocracy to which she belongs. (Melodramatic, I know.) Fe conveys my feelings of loss and alienation from this aristocracy; it is subtly smug and elitist. It is actually Fe which has most strongly contributed to my 4 status due to the fact that many of my childhood authority figures attempted to suppress my emotional expressiveness from a young age, leaving me upset and defiant. These figures isolated me from my peers and made an example out of me. Moreover, I express myself not only to display originality, but to galvanize others into self-expression which stands in opposition to conventional standards of politeness and subdued emotions, many of which are propagated by Fi, especially sx-blind Fi. I'm also sx/so, which may explain these behaviours.
If I'm supposed to be a 2 or 6 just because of goddamn Fe and Fi ignoring or whatever, just fucking shoot me now. Don't even get me started on the tragedy that is of enneatype 2, the concept alone absolutely sickens me. Anyways - The answer is yes. The struggle of social 4, which is what I am, is/sounds realistic in regards to Fe. Our creative function is how we interact with others and how we shape our reality , correct? Ni Creative sounds quite correlated to 4's motivation. I dont see the reason for confusion.
Isn't Shakespeare EIE 4 sp? Isn't Morrissey EIE 4 Soc first?
Alright so, I am a self pres 4 a bit of debating enneagram and I couldn't tell if I was a social 4 or a self pres 4 because at the end of the day 4s have to deal with social shame anyways - no matter the subtype. I have known I was a 4 for a while but things can make you doubt, naturally. Anyways I felt like I didn't want to really getting into this because I tend to get nasty when I feel like others are asking me to prove my identity to the world. But for the sake of education or whatever, here I am.
Enneagram heart types at the end of the day, are image types because they have dealt with some kind of narcissistic abuse. All other types can but the other triad centers end up wanting something else instead - thinking types seek security and each types complex with that goes inward, outer, or explicitly onto others. That is why the inward types are called withdrawn. They go IN to deal with those issues. It has nothing to do with extroversion, introversion or how you handle others. gut types want autonomy. Its going to be blunt but heart types want attention to validate their existence. 2 goes outward with others, 3 goes outward with whatever idk, and 4 goes inward. Okay? So would an ethical type Fe, have that kind of issue? Yes. Why not? Could an Fe ego type want to look inwards to feel complete rather than outers? Absolutely.
A 4 has the issue of being incomplete, as all do image types but they figure that the answers are not in the world and not with how well they do with others but the answer is within themselves. because once they can accomplish that, then they can actualize themselves. I am not sure why someone with leading Fe could not look inwards, and find the answers within themselves. That is so absolute putting someone inside the box and thinking inside these perimeters that its absolutely ludicrous. ludicrous! 4s and Fes are absolutely profound, when healthy, when it comes to human conditions and therefore have colorful inner worlds and a 4 Fe would certainly help others realize that need to connect with that inner world. I've already mentioned that Ni Creative fits 4s agenda.
Tell me what is the honest difference between Leading and Creative? Maybe I am too new in Socionics.
If you need a EIE 4 to come out and say it, then Hello, it's me.
@VOGUE PARIS To me :Fe: lead is also an expression of 4, it doesn't need :Ni: necessarily. It's still the emotional rollercoaster infused with romance, being withdrawn is not such a huge aspect since we only talk triads here. Though you can easily divorce function and enneagram drive anyways, socionics elements are not motivations, just ways of expression.