Si vulnerable / painful PoLR function of ENTjs and ENFjs

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Originally Posted by FDG

Who told you I have never been an elite athlete? I've cycled at professional level for one year (before deciding there was just too much dope around for me to handle), and I still compete at decently high level, that's why I included my own records.

Dunno, quick reflexes, speed, endurance, coordination? How are they related to :Si:? It's mostly genetic.

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Never assumed anything about you. It was simply a question. If you want to compare yourself with athletes of the caliber nominated then its up to you to present your credentials in the first place.

I agree with your observation on doping in cycling ... its pretty much pandemic, so i figure you've done the right thing.

Agreed about genetics. No athlete that is not well endowed physically for their field of choice has any hope of making it in the current era. There are even occasions where unusually favourable (or even freak) genetics will trump all other factors eg Phelps in swimming.... but this is rare.

Typically in sport the sorting process will result in a pool of comparably gifted individuals where genetics is concerned. What will sort them beyond that are mental factors like willpower and preparation and other related higher level qualities like vision and ability to get themselves in flow or in "the zone" ... this is where in my opinion :Si: comes into play.

I have read a quote by Wayne Gretzky that while most players skated to where the puck is, he moved to where it was going ..... :Si: "Observable Dynamic qualities of Fields" .... in his view, this is what distinguished him from others of equal or even greater athletic ability.

You say how is this applicable to brutes like Mike Tyson. Fact is beyond the obvious physical strength Tyson relied on superior awareness and timing, most of his opponents never saw it coming. You say Tyson is SLE not SLI. Based on what? Post fight exhibitions of raw :Se: ?.... In socionics the first function is "simply confident" ... no need to flaunt, the seventh function "produces opinions and behaviour that is aggressive or arrogant"... it is the "instinctive aggressive self" .... this is what the media chooses to highlight and this is what IMO has led to his mistyping by others (including Rick whose typings i otherwise have grown to respect immensely).

Similarly for Michael Jordan .... when he played, he played "in the zone" :Si:

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Originally Posted by Rocket

Michael Jordan

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Benchmark LSI

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Wayne Gretzky

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ESE

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Mike Tyson

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Benchmark SLE

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Larry Bird

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LSE

Way to fail.

Si-PoLR is more about an unawareness of personal sensations. How sensations affect themselves and others. Si-PoLRs are bad at measuring quality of how the senses affect themselves. They may tend towards enjoying overly strong or bland tastes. They may equate intensity of sensation with quality when dealing with the senses. They typically have little desire to indulge in the senses for periods of time and become impatient. Not very good at knowing what looks 'good' and may have insecurities about how good they look almost always taking criticism personally if brought up by others.

So Gilly ... you figure this guy is ESE?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Y2j-X4yZn4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nqX2LkpaJI

Actually he looks like a combination of Vladimir Putin and the guy who plays the old asshole on Scrubs. Admittedly, though, probably not ESE; that was a typing from a long time ago I hadn't questioned. I suppose Gretzky could be SLI; maybe Messier is an LSE:

http://people.smu.edu/aganders/image...%20Messier.jpg

http://media.canada.com/canwest/22/111307messier.jpg

http://www2.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/M..._GQ2XAwuMl.jpg

Certainly some EJ, in any case; maybe even LIE.

Yeah Messier always looked LSE to me. A LIE is probably Selanne. (going by VI)

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2008/writers/j...elanne.how.jpg

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2007/images/06/07/T1.selanne2.jpg

http://ducks.freedomblogging.com/fil...mu-selanne.jpg

http://www.fanatique.ca/images/_prof...selanne500.jpg

I can see that. He shares a particular Ni-Ej look with myself, Paul Walker, and Jude Law: facial shape, eyes, expressions, etc. Not to mention we're all probably 3s and incredibly attractive.

There's an Si-PoLR star athlete for you.

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Originally Posted by Mariella

I think it is an inability to relax, inability to be patient, and inability and wait anywhere. They're always looking at what's coming next. As soon as they get anywhere, they are ready to move onto the next place.

OK here's a story. When I was little, my family went to the lake (I'm from Michigan so lake means REALLY REALLY BIG LAKE) and my parents insisted on leaving the house at like 8 am or something. We got to this very lovely beach at a quaint little resort town at like 9:30 am. We started splashing around a bit and my ENFj dad said, "Let's have lunch." We said we weren't really hungry yet but my mom (ENTj) got lunch together anyway. Then, after a bit more splashing, my dad said, "OK, we've eaten, the kids are wet, let's go home." We were back home by noon. So much for our day at the beach.

May I say that this kind of thing drives me absolutely bonkers.

In addition to having an Si PoLR, my dad is completely crazy, so it might not be as exaggerated in other Si-PoLR people. But this kind of general thing happened over and over and over again when I was a kid. I didn't know amusement parks were open after it got dark. I thought everyone left for big trips at like 5 am. I thought everyone ate early if they could so they could move onto the next thing, whether they were hungry or not. I always wondered who saw the third period of a hockey game. We always left after the second intermission so we could beat the crowd home. I hated leaving early! Why couldn't we just sit and relax, and maybe relax in our seats for a little bit after the game until the crowd had moved out, if it was such a big deal?

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Originally Posted by ;213940

These are some :Si: polr things that I have witnessed:

1. Health uncertainty. Especially with :Ni: creative, they are worries. Need outside reassurance from other people that their health and current moment state, the present reality, is not too overwhelming for them. If they do not have such people, their health can decline easily. Require positivity from other people - despite themselves being emotionally dominant.
2. Clumsiness, especially for ENFjs. They can be dramatic and charismatic, but often in a dreamy way.
3. Trouble caring for other people - ENFjs may enjoy cooking, especially in the traditional female role - but can feel a great deal of pressure in such situations. One ENFj I know stresses a great deal about preparing meals for her family, even though she is a fine cook in reality.
4. Related to 1 and 3: Also, they may over-apply treatments, and over-rest when ill. A very poor sense of recommendations when it comes to health in general. The same ENFj I mentioned clearly does not want to know what is wrong with her when she goes to the doctor, just what she needs to do (:Ti: seeking). If she knows too much, she will worry herself into despair.
5. Victim: trouble maintaining relations with people. Expecting an aggressor to initiate things with them, sometimes ENFjs lose contact with people simply because they are unsure of how to care about them and maintain a relationship - consider how they look for an ISTj's constant presence and influence. Similarly, when they do like you, they can lavishly over-gift and give more than they need too, should they consider you in a rough spot and in need of warnings, money, sympathy, etc --- so long as you are being wise about how you use it, of course.
6. Continuing from the previous section -- seem to have a tendency to spoil people they care about a great deal. One ENFj treats her dog to any sort of goody available, and, consequently, the dog is obese and extremely gluttonous. Overcompensates by excessively pouring gifts or treats in hopes to win appeasement or emotional appeal - similar to the ESE, but with much less skill or quantity awareness. Easily overdoes things in this way. (Again, consider the dual - LSI).

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Originally Posted by ;213947

If someone is :Ti: seeking, they want terse, yes/no sort of answers. If they are :Te: seeking, they want a list of facts and ideas so they can be convinced. Too much information (Te) for an Fe type leaves them confused and overwhelmed - they need the most important facts, and not to be cluttered.


Yes.

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Originally Posted by Ms. Kensington

:Si: , :Si:

You know what I can't understand is how an ENFj thinks sex is a gross thing to talk about. Having a rough time handling this. I've also noticed in the media that if someone offers some Si or Se, an ENFj (not sure about INFps) will shrink away. But I wonder if that is a victim's way of inviting more Se.

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Originally Posted by Jadae

"I think it is an inability to relax, inability to be patient, and inability and wait anywhere. They're always looking at what's coming next. As soon as they get anywhere, they are ready to move onto the next place."

Slacker Mom is smart and right on the money. ENXj's loathe and fear homeostasis. It isn't about aesthetics, lol. The sound of silence is my enemy.

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Originally Posted by ScarlettLux

Agree with Jadae completely. It seems like I rarely if ever have that nice, calm feeling you describe within yourself ... I sort of wish I had though. It is very hard for me to understand in others, though I am trying to - a certain person who I was very close with before was probably in an Si/Ne quadra and had that same value placed on Si that I did not. He is always in a calm state, no matter what - is this more Ixxj or Ixxp would you think? I'm thinking the former ... unflappable temperament and such. It is evidently something I need to balance me out.

Btw: some other thoughts on :Si: PoLR, at least in myself - it's really difficult to settle down in thoughts ... my mind is constantly on overdrive but perhaps that is more of an individual problem than anything else. I can hardly get to sleep some nights because of this issue. Actually, scrap that - it is an individual problem ... must get some natural health product to help me sleep better =[ Don't know what's wrong with me! < --- oh man, that is probably a perfect example of :Si: PoLR! Not knowing what is wrong with me, and stressing over it insanely.

I am a heavy hypochondriac and a worrier. I exude a lot of nervous behaviour and people know me for being high-strung and anxious. I do have anxiety problems already and since I can't deal with anxiety, I am wondering if other EIEs have similar problems? I mean, I know it is intense for me, but even on a lower level, do you have trouble with your bodily functions and just knowing whether or not you are "normal" or "healthy"?

I also tend to convince myself I am more unhealthy than I am ... it is like I am almost wanting to prove to others that I am incapable of taking care of my health, therefore crying out for attention ... for someone to take care of me in that sense. I actually read Rick's blog one time re: the unhealthy sides of PoLRs and yikes, the EIE one is so true for me - "prove to everyone that they are sick"

Oh yeah, forgot to mention that I overdo it with my work-outs and my eating habits are totally messed up... I am very insecure with my physical appearance, similar to how onetreehilluver mentioned ... hmm. It's just a sense of never being comfortable in one's skin I suppose.

One last thing that probably sums up :Si: PoLR - not being able to live in the present moment!

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yeah this is what si is like, it sucks

I'm an IEI not an EIE but also have pretty weak Si. Way it works is that I am quite bad at tracking the physical state of my body and taking care of my own comfort. For example I can forget to eat for half the day. Then I will feel very grouchy or get a headache. Only later will I realize that I feel like crap because I haven't actually taken care of my body's nutrition. Also sometimes I would do such things as sit and read and not notice it would get dark outside. Then I would be trying to read in really dim light until someone with stronger sensing would come by and turn the light on for me in my room. I also have no problem just sleeping in my clothing, wherever pretty much, and may disregard some illness symptoms until I get very sick.

*poof* - most of what was written turned out to be a combination of self-preservation instinct and e6

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- Martial arts classes, having to remember body poses, physical memory basically.

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Yeah, I'm pretty bad at that too.

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Originally Posted by siuntal

- Some Si users can make racist or sexist remarks, or be overly patriotic and express their views on how immigrants are really harmful for the country as they aren't very welcoming of these kinds of changes. This kind of stuff irks me to no end.

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I don't think that's type-related...

Another way :Si: in the Super-ego can manifest for Beta NFs is as a general inability to just be "normal" and accept the status quo.

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Originally Posted by siuntal

Other places where my Si gets hit:
- Martial arts classes, having to remember body poses, physical memory basically.

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Same for me too...well actually i don't even notice that I'm doing it wrong sometimes. I can't get the exact* body pose. When i get grabbed on the arm (like say self defense) you're supposed to step forward and twist where their grip is weakest (their thumb) and if you step closer, you get more power with your arms if it's closer to your body ya? So sometimes when I'm doing the exercise, i instead pull the person closer to me in order to break free rather than stepping forward and then breaking free. Really confusing, took me a while to get it :doh:

*shamelessly copying Vois's thread on Ni PoLR, as s/he asked some very good questions*

How does Si PoLR manifest in thought?
Can you give any examples of an Si PoLR person's THOUGHTS in this area? I'm not so much interested in action (disliking cleaning or somesuch).
Also, what stimulates an Si PoLR to get defensive in this area? What kinds of questions would likely make them squirm?

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Originally Posted by ClaudiaM

*shamelessly copying Vois's thread on Ni PoLR, as s/he asked some very good questions*

How does Si PoLR manifest in thought?
Can you give any examples of an Si PoLR person's THOUGHTS in this area? I'm not so much interested in action (disliking cleaning or somesuch).
Also, what stimulates an Si PoLR to get defensive in this area? What kinds of questions would likely make them squirm?

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I can't begin to tell you about :Si:polr, but I can tell you it has nothing to do with what you brought up about the cleaning b.s. Also, some people on this forum claim that we would be upset if someone told us to shut up that they were too busy eating, that's hilarious.

I can't be in a stagnant environment or position. I hate sitting still for long periods of time or enduring any physical restriction; something as simple as sitting in a barber's chair makes me angry because my desire to move or do something overcomes anything else. I have no tolerance for tense situations where things are "beneath the surface;" if I'm talking to someone and I feel like they are glossing over something because it's unpleasant or awkward, I'm immediately compelled to bring it to the surface. I can't stand to live, or even be, in one place for too long; I will either go to sleep, or get restless and do something. I move about every 2 years because seeing the same things over and over gets irrepressably dull and extremely depressing for me. I have a sort of constant need for external stimulus; I have a really hard time just sort of "being."

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Originally Posted by Gilly

I can't be in a stagnant environment or position. I hate sitting still for long periods of time or enduring any physical restriction; something as simple as sitting in a barber's chair makes me angry because my desire to move or do something overcomes anything else. I have no tolerance for tense situations where things are "beneath the surface;" if I'm talking to someone and I feel like they are glossing over something because it's unpleasant or awkward, I'm immediately compelled to bring it to the surface. I can't stand to live, or even be, in one place for too long; I will either go to sleep, or get restless and do something. I move about every 2 years because seeing the same things over and over gets irrepressably dull and extremely depressing for me. I have a sort of constant need for external stimulus; I have a really hard time just sort of "being."

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I don't have a problem with sitting still for too long, but I think it's funny that you mention the need to move every couple of years, I do the same thing, I mean I just moved to California for no good reason other than I get sick of my environment as well, didn't know that was :Si: polr.

I don't think it's necessarily related to Si polr directly, but I think Si polr can definitely play a part in that kind of behavior.

I basically have to meditate to sit still for more than 30 seconds without freaking out, unless I have something compelling to distract me.

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Originally Posted by Gilly

I basically have to meditate to sit still for more than 30 seconds without freaking out, unless I have something compelling to distract me.

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Idk, this has never happened to me, I have no problem sitting still and relaxing for long periods of time, could this be subtype related? Probably not but I thought I would just throw it out there.

Poor EIEs. Do you ever get a cold ?

Sounds just like my dad, Ashton.

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Originally Posted by poli

Sounds just like my dad, Ashton.

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Does your dad know when he died ?

I don't know anything about their thoughts or making them squirm, but I am here to make a public service announcement.

NEVER TRUST AN Si-PoLR ON MATTERS OF TASTE

Thank you.

I have been skeptical of their taste being type related, but I have suffered Abbie. He's a horrible cook and misses the finer details that bring sensual aesthetics together, and his mirror compliments him on his basic food, while I'm just left to suffer in silence. With cars and mechanical projects, he can get all the lines straight or notice anything that's out of line physically and need adjustment, to a degree of efficiency and seemingly endless care and energy, but somehow when it affects humans directly, as per subjective sensing, like food or what elements bring about comfortable sensations, he seems clueless and could really care less. He definitely has his own tastes in food though, that some others appreciate. I just feel they're really plain like he doesn't enjoy much in food but a good strength of one or two supplementary ingredients.

He is Ni-ENFJ.

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Originally Posted by Director Abbie

I don't know anything about their thoughts or making them squirm, but I am here to make a public service announcement.

NEVER TRUST AN Si-PoLR ON MATTERS OF TASTE

Thank you.

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I would have to agree with you on this. It amazes me how sensory types in general seem to have a knack for interior design. Their homes seem nice and cozy and they match objects together that i wouldn't be able to figure out unless I had someone's help on the matter, I just suck with aesthetics.

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Originally Posted by Ashton

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Originally Posted by Director Abbie

NEVER TRUST AN Si-PoLR ON MATTERS OF TASTE

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Some ISXps have the worst taste I've ever seen.

:Ni:/:Se: valuers and :Si:/:Ne: valuers frequently clash over aesthetics IME.

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Se art beta artistic aesthetics you slags.

I do agree with Ashton on this, and it being a matter of clash in values, as well as in many instances not type related, and :Si: has nothing to do with general "taste." I was just giving my perspective on what one Si-PoLR is like for me.

(Actually, I was referring to food...)

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Originally Posted by poli

I do agree with Ashton on this, about it being type related :Se: vs :Si:, and :Si: has nothing to do with general "taste", I was just giving my own perspective.

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I love him too, mmm.

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Originally Posted by Vois

I relate to all of that. I can never leave food out in my room because I hate having to smell it, and I always get annoyed when I hear that high pitched noise a TV or cell phone charger makes. Every time I visit an office building, I want to leave immediately because those gray/blue rooms with their fake plants look like absolute shit (etc etc). I also don't like listening to people talk about sensations, and I'm repulsed by photos of people enjoying sensations (like those that Timeless posted one time).

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I can do with bad smells, lights, etc., just fine, as long something doesn't get in the way of what I'm doing, like in a major way, that is, as long things work, do their job as intended, I have no qualms.

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I don't know if I'm Si PoLR, but we have the same enneagram type. Maybe there's something to that (maybe).

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Different wing though, anyway, LIEs are scarce, so get on with the programme. Ashton loves you, I know that.

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Originally Posted by Ashton

In talking to other Si PoLRs, I've wondered before if it could manifest as an increased sensitivity to bad aesthetics. Bad smells, dissonant sounds (like from tapping, TVs running in other rooms, or bad audio fidelity), clashing gaudy colors, and general ugliness tends to make me livid.

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With you on this one. I despise places like libraries and cafeterias that feel empty and sterile...Nick and I used to make rants about soullessness while sitting in Panera :lol:

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I have problems sitting still too, but I don't think it's type-related (ADD 4 me).

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IME it's a similar feeling to my reaction to bad aesthetics, just this kind of unsettled feeling that slowly boils over into restlessness and eventually anger. When I have a bad acid trip, or any kind of psychedelic exeprience, really, it manifests even more sharply: I have very strong, anger-based visceral reactions to any kind of physical discomfort.

Re: Si = style, I had a poor sense of style when I was young, but as soon as someone showed me the basics I quickly came into a strong command of basic matching skills; I consider myself to have well-developed taste now. My aesthetic sensibilities have always meant a lot to me, in everything from the background screen on my phone to the kinds of clothes I wear; I don't focus on them very much on a moment-to-moment, or even daily basis, but when I DO think about it I tend to fixate on things like getting all of my icons matching or finding exactly the right picture that I like, and I will feel kind of angry if I can't get everything the way I want it.

:Si:-Polr has always struck me as the best Polr to have: :Ni:-Polr can't foresee the implications of their action, :Fe:-Polr finds it hard to join in on the histrionics of general conversation, but :Si:-Polr? They... can't remember what food tastes good?

Anyway, I think :Si:-Polr would probably be related to not being able to focus on the small details, if they have some big piece of work they need to handle, they would rather work out the plan on how to approach each separate piece of work and what to do, rather than actually doing the work themselves. If they do need to do it themselves, they may overlook details in monitoring process.

That is, they either overlook things or oversee things. Heh. :D

However, this is all speculation, I haven't seen too much evidence of this in real life (nor have I seen much evidence against it, I have just never really looked out for situations where the details are important).

I fidget constantly, and I'm perennially tense. I spend most of my time sitting on my ass, but I always have to be doing something -- I can't simply relax and do nothing. And I periodically get up and walk around.

I'm a complete slob. I don't clean up after myself, I don't really watch my personal hygiene carefully, don't watch my health -- and I often get pissed when it's pointed out (like, if I skip a meal or eat ramen for ever meal or don't sleep -- it's my fucking business what I do with my body thank you very much). I'm also very poor at noticing aesthetic details and typing up loose ends -- it feels like tasks are never going to end.

I find most sensory pleasures boring and a little puzzling. I don't enjoy massages, spa treatments, I don't really ever stop and smell the flowers (literally or figuratively). I enjoy sex (it feels great), but I think it's overrated, and it genuinely surprises me how much emphasis society puts on it -- I can easily go without (in a relationship, if I have sex more than once or twice a week it's for my partner's sake). The only sensory pleasure I actually enjoy is food -- and even then it has to be strong-tasting food, because otherwise I'm like "...is that it?"

I'm horrible at noticing minor changes in my body, which leads me to become paranoid about my health when I do. I've been convinced all my life that drugs don't have an effect on me, so I take massive (almost OD-inducing) doses.

Yeah, I've never understood Si-polr.

It probably has something to do with a) needing stimulus (Se-seeking), and b) difficulty relaxing. And difficulty relaxing has to be something profound. Like your internal organs move too much or something. I wonder if there's a higher instance of, say, sleeplessness among Si-polrs?

And in theory it should have something to do with difficulty interpreting the signals you're getting from your body, but what on earth does that mean?

I think that in some ways, meditation could be an example of using Ni (strong) to cover Si (weak)?

Si-polr is the one that confuses me the most out of all of them.

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Originally Posted by silverchris9

I wonder if there's a higher instance of, say, sleeplessness among Si-polrs?

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Well, I have serious trouble sleeping, and I have all my life -- my sleep schedules have always been out of whack (and sometimes I go without sleep deliberately, because fuck sleep). I remember back when I was unemployed I'd periodically go without sleep for 30-40 hours at a time, then crash at like 3pm, then wake up at 2 am, then repeat.

George Carlin (who I type C-EIE) described something similar in his autobiography.

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Originally Posted by Absurd

Your nostrils look kind of funny.

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Beer tastes kind of funny.

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Originally Posted by Director Abbie

I don't know anything about their thoughts or making them squirm, but I am here to make a public service announcement.

NEVER TRUST AN Si-PoLR ON MATTERS OF TASTE

Thank you.

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Frankly, I have to +1 this. It wasn't until I learned socionics and started paying attention (or rather, asking around) that I realized just how much I suck at interior design, fashion, etc. :\

LOL at people not understanding what Si PoLR is and relating experiences that have nothing to do with Si PoLR.

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Originally Posted by Traveler

LOL at people not understanding what Si PoLR is and relating experiences that have nothing to do with Si PoLR.

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Lemme help you out.

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as a vulnerable (4th) function (EIE and LIE)

Individuals who possess introverted sensing as a 4th function tend to be negligent to the effects of and have the view that aspects are of less importance than others for achieving their goals. They put a low priority on the physical, short-distance, here-and-now in relation to longer-distance and longer-term considerations. A typical manifestation is a lack of concern for small aesthetic details, since a greater focus is given on the opinion that, in the longer term, taking care of them is a never-ending exercise. This is also manifested in a relative lack of awareness of the immediate surroundings, as in noticing where objects may be if you don't have to deal with them particularly, and of your own physical sensations.
A lack of concern for small aesthetic details is more visible in the LIE; in the case of the EIE, the low focus on is more noticeable as a dislike for low-level practical details, such as filling up forms, signing documents, or filling tax returns.
Due to individuals who possess introverted sensing as a 4th function believing that aspects are of less importance, they tend to be thrown off course by unthought of, new or neglected matters.

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http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t...EIE_and_LIE.29

I'm curious, as I've not read through the thread. Who's related something here that doesn't fit that description?

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Originally Posted by Morcheeba

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Originally Posted by ClaudiaM

*shamelessly copying Vois's thread on Ni PoLR, as s/he asked some very good questions*

How does Si PoLR manifest in thought?
Can you give any examples of an Si PoLR person's THOUGHTS in this area? I'm not so much interested in action (disliking cleaning or somesuch).
Also, what stimulates an Si PoLR to get defensive in this area? What kinds of questions would likely make them squirm?

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I can't begin to tell you about :Si:polr, but I can tell you it has nothing to do with what you brought up about the cleaning b.s. Also, some people on this forum claim that we would be upset if someone told us to shut up that they were too busy eating, that's hilarious.

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Oh I know it isn't about cleaning; that's why I mentioned that specifically as something I didn't want examples about, as it seems to be a (silly) stereotype. I have Si PoLR and if anything I want things to be as clean/non-disgusting and germy as possible.

I like what you and Gilly have said about the moving thing. I am the same way -- can't "sit still" in the moment OR in one location (to live) for too long. I get restless.

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Originally Posted by Traveler

LOL at people not understanding what Si PoLR is and relating experiences that have nothing to do with Si PoLR.

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LOL at useless posts that contribute nothing. You have Te-activation, don't you, Traveler? How about you show us what you got.

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Originally Posted by ClaudiaM

I have Si PoLR.

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Yet your profile says Gamma SF...? :thinking: