Empathy Fi or Fe?

@Maritsa posted something that made me curious about this.

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Originally Posted by Maritsa

I would not say that I'm the best at people's real feelings or intentions as I'm not good wit Fe

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Originally Posted by Aylen

I would say this is the area of true empathy and not Fe since Fe seems more about influencing the other's emotions and general atmosphere. I can tell when someone with better Fe than me walks into a room because they can take it over and play the crowd, sts. In a good way usually. Empathy is more about experiencing the other's intentions and feelings as your own so why wouldn't Fi be able to do this? I am not well versed on Fi so please give me the simplest version of what Fi does, in your opinion? Just seems empathy is not related to the functions at all when you put it this way.

https://psychology-tools.com/empathy-quotient/

Your Empathy Quotient score was 61 out of a possible 80.

I will start a thread...

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The questions are really close together and it is easy to click the wrong one if you're not careful.

Your Empathy Quotient score was 61 out of a possible 80.
Scores above 30 are generally not indicitive of an Autism Spectrum disorder.
Higher scores indicate greater levels of empathy.

Your Empathy Quotient score was 30 out of a possible 80.
Scores of 30 or less indicate a lack of empathy common in people with Autism or Asperger’s Syndrome.

Made me laugh, thanks :biggrin:

i think neither. Empathy is a human trait.

Maritsa answered me here if anyone is curious about her response.

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...=1#post1075104

Fe is empathy in as much as one can expect from functions imo.

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Originally Posted by Aylen

@Maritsa posted something that made me curious about this.




The questions are really close together and it is easy to click the wrong one if you're not careful.

Your Empathy Quotient score was 61 out of a possible 80.
Scores above 30 are generally not indicitive of an Autism Spectrum disorder.
Higher scores indicate greater levels of empathy.

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Take this example. Both my sister and I are visiting my father who is bed ridden at the hospital and on morphine for extreme pain. While I remain quiet and listen to my father attentively as he tells me "honey, I can't stand this pain any more, I don't know what's going to happen to me." I listen without any further emotional output or expectation than rubbing his shoulder and saying "I know dad, I'm working closely with the doctors to see what we can do." I provide reassurance and a breath of hope; my sister reacts and cries saying how she's feeling about dad being so bad. I feel bad too, but I don't get into emotional hysterics at least I don't let my dad see that as a proof of how I feel. I toughen up and I am that person's compress. I'm not there for my own proof of emotions. My sister tries to stir the pot and make him laugh or aggravate him by saying "we'll just cut your foot off…" and whatever any other shit she can say that will get him to get mad or react. I use my calming emotions to be a compress she uses hers to liven him up rattle him up.

Your Empathy Quotient score was 47 out of a possible 80.

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Originally Posted by Maritsa

Take this example. Both my sister and I are visiting my father who is bed ridden at the hospital and on morphine for extreme pain. While I remain quiet and listen to my father attentively as he tells me "honey, I can't stand this pain any more, I don't know what's going to happen to me." I listen without any further emotional output or expectation than rubbing his shoulder and saying "I know dad, I'm working closely with the doctors to see what we can do." I provide reassurance and a breath of hope; my sister reacts and cries saying how she's feeling about dad being so bad. I feel bad too, but I don't get into emotional hysterics at least I don't let my dad see that as a proof of how I feel. I toughen up and I am that person's compress. I'm not there for my own proof of emotions. My sister tries to stir the pot and make him laugh or aggravate him by saying "we'll just cut your foot off…" and whatever any other shit she can say that will get him to get mad or react. I use my calming emotions to be a compress she uses hers to liven him up rattle him up.

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Originally Posted by Maritsa

Because Fi remains quiet and feels while Fe is too busy stirring the pot to get people showing emotions. I hug and tenderly touch while feeling the pain of my father so that he won't get mad while he's in pain about how my sister jokes to lighten the situation. I sit next to him and he says "honey it hurts and I haven't slept all night" and I can say I know dad I'm hereand I'm asking the nurses to make sure that you get your meds on time. I offer better reassuance

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Originally Posted by Aylen

I did the same thing as you and your sister when my dad was dying. I lightened the mood when called for but I also comforted him. I just knew when to do either. I made a thread about this if you want to answer there. Fe is not always about stirring the pot.

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Originally Posted by Maritsa

I don't understand why you're telling me this. I don't really care what you do. I know what I do and what my sister does. she and I are total extremes in the opposite directions. While she cries and gets hysterical and loudly, I pull myself aside and am too closed in.

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Originally Posted by Aylen

Thanks for the empathy. I told you because you brought up the whole idea and tried to explain it with Fi and Fe. You explained nothing about either but gave me some good information on your ability to empathize.

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:rolleyes:

I got 71 out of 80

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Originally Posted by Aylen

:rolleyes:

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We don't understand each other.

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Originally Posted by Maritsa

We don't understand each other.

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I understand you just fine so speak for yourself. Not trying to be mean here. I read between the lines of most of what you say.

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Originally Posted by Aylen

I understand you just fine so speak for yourself. Not trying to be mean here. I read between the lines of most of what you say.

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Then an eye roll is inappropriate. If you're thankful and understand me you can simply say, "thank you" or "thanks"

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Originally Posted by Maritsa

Then an eye roll is inappropriate. If you're thankful and understand me you can simply say, "thank you" or "thanks"

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Look at your score. I remember the questions asked clearly. Now look at what you say in response to me. I am doing the math now. Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Aylen

Look at your score. I remember the questions asked clearly. Now look at what you say in response to me. I am doing the math now. Thank you.

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We don't understand each other. You can't stop to find out what's going on and you can't reasonably make out the sequence of events or my expectations from the events. Therefore, we don't have good communication because it's producing asymmetric results. Therefore insults fly as one party tries to bring the other to do and say what the other party expects in the meanwhile producing more insults. I can only say this is either activity relations or something that mimics activity between you and I.

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Originally Posted by Maritsa

Take this example. Both my sister and I are visiting my father who is bed ridden at the hospital and on morphine for extreme pain. While I remain quiet and listen to my father attentively as he tells me "honey, I can't stand this pain any more, I don't know what's going to happen to me." I listen without any further emotional output or expectation than rubbing his shoulder and saying "I know dad, I'm working closely with the doctors to see what we can do." I provide reassurance and a breath of hope; my sister reacts and cries saying how she's feeling about dad being so bad. I feel bad too, but I don't get into emotional hysterics at least I don't let my dad see that as a proof of how I feel. I toughen up and I am that person's compress. I'm not there for my own proof of emotions. My sister tries to stir the pot and make him laugh or aggravate him by saying "we'll just cut your foot off…" and whatever any other shit she can say that will get him to get mad or react. I use my calming emotions to be a compress she uses hers to liven him up rattle him up.

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Originally Posted by Maritsa

Because Fi remains quiet and feels while Fe is too busy stirring the pot to get people showing emotions.

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Maritsa I think this is a wonderful thing.

It is interesting because i remember when I used to go on TC a little and you would always burst into tears or create a drama scene, your favourite target was Ashton. So please don't say you are a calm one or is your Fi malfunctioned?

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Originally Posted by Words

Maritsa I think this is a wonderful thing.

It is interesting because i remember when I used to go on TC a little and you would always burst into tears or create a drama scene, your favourite target was Ashton. So please don't say you are a calm one or is your Fi malfunctioned?

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I cried when Ashton was around because I tried hard to communicate my needs despite him cursing at me endlessly and how bad he used to make me feel. My bf has observed that the miscommunication created by myself and my activity relations brings me to rage, a state that is uncomfortable and out of the ordinary for me. He recently took steps in cutting a relations between myself an an activity who was using me and who resorted to insults to make me feel bad about who I was and what I was doing. I quickly returned to my calm and serene state and feel good now. Ashton and I have no place in one room together ever.

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Originally Posted by Maritsa

We don't understand each other. You can't stop to find out what's going on and you can't reasonably make out the sequence of events or my expectations from the events. Therefore, we don't have good communication because it's producing asymmetric results. Therefore insults fly as one party tries to bring the other to do and say what the other party expects in the meanwhile producing more insults. I can only say this is either activity relations or something that mimics activity between you and I.

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and I am telling you that your assessment of what I understand is flat out wrong, Maritsa. Don't bring socionics into this unless you want to switch your self-typing to LSI. You just glossed over what I said about my dad and didn't understand a word of it. I understood what you said about your dad and your situation and I truly feel for you. Granted my dad is dead and yours is still alive but I put every ounce of energy I had into making his last days as comfortable and happy, as I could so don't tell me I don't understand. Whether or not that is Fi or Fe doesn't matter to me. You try to make Fe sound like it is the life of the party and wanting to pot stir and it isn't. I know how to be appropriate and rolling my eyes was the most appropriate reaction I could muster at that response you gave me.

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Originally Posted by Aylen

and I am telling you that your assessment of what I understand is flat out wrong, Maritsa. Don't bring socionics into this unless you want to switch your self-typing to LSI. You just glossed over what I said about my dad and didn't understand a word of it. I understood what you said about your dad and your situations and I truly feel for you. Granted my dad is dead and yours is still alive but I put every ounce of energy I had into making his last days as comfortable and happy, as I could so don't tell me I don't understand. Whether or not that is Fi or Fe doesn't matter to me. You try to make Fe sound like it is the life of the party and wanting to pot stir and it isn't. I know how to be appropriate and rolling my eyes was the most appropriate reaction I could muster at that response you gave me.

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We respond very differently, emotionally as events happen. While you may remain unchanged to others. My emotions may change so much that it is a singular state. For example if I'm upset at what's going on with my dad, that state does not change while I interact with other people. I'm still upset state to you and everyone else. You may be so just in that person's interaction and not to others.

It's hard to change my emotional states. Only Logic can do it. Only my bf can when he sits next to me and says what is happening in the Te way. He'll say "you're upset about your father because you can't do anything."

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Originally Posted by Maritsa

I cried when Ashton was around because I tried hard to communicate my needs despite him cursing at me endlessly and how bad he used to make me feel. My bf has observed that the miscommunication created by myself and my activity relations brings me to rage, a state that is uncomfortable and out of the ordinary for me. He recently took steps in cutting a relations between myself an an activity who was using me and who resorted to insults to make me feel bad about who I was and what I was doing. I quickly returned to my calm and serene state and feel good now. Ashton and I have no place in one room together ever.

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Is it possible for you to go OH WAIT I SEE WHAT YOU MEAN I AM WRONG. Maritsa you were crying and screaming and all sorts, so what you say about Fi not Crying or Not Screaming or Not Having Histrionics is nonesense. I think you just want to be right all the time which is a very unattractive quality regardless of type.

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Originally Posted by Words

Is it possible for you to go OH WAIT I SEE WHAT YOU MEAN I AM WRONG. Maritsa you were crying and screaming and all sorts, so what you say about Fi not Crying or Not Screaming or Not Having Histrionics is nonesense. I think you just want to be right all the time which is a very unattractive quality regardless of type.

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Words you're equating my reaction in two separate situations. Why do you want it to be all the same? If you find it unattractive then don't talk to me. I don't talk to people who have qualities that don't appeal to me. Why would I? You want to change me, go change yourself.

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Originally Posted by Maritsa

Words you're equating my reaction in two separate situations. Why do you want it to be all the same? If you find it unattractive then don't talk to me. I don't talk to people who have qualities that don't appeal to me. Why would I? You want to change me, go change yourself.

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It's not about liking you or disliking you, it's about you being consistent and not letting OTHER people think oh maybe I am Fe because Maritsa says Fi people don't act like this - except you are Fi and you do act like this.

I am empathetic, I am thinking about other people not getting the wrong idea about functions or wrong idea about their type. It's not just about you (person with highest empathy score in the world).

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Originally Posted by Words

It's not about liking you or disliking you, it's about you being consistent and not letting OTHER people think oh maybe I am Fe because Maritsa says Fi people don't act like this - except you are Fi and you do act like this.

I am empathetic, I am thinking about other people not getting the wrong idea about functions or wrong idea about their type. It's not just about you (person with highest empathy score in the world).

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Fe and Fi are stated consistently in my signature. I am typically more empathetic than most other human beings. Period. No human being is without all emotions and what situations bring things about doesn't make them that person. You are wrong for thinking that and wrong for coining me based on one situation that you observed.

the conflict in this thread is a pretty good example of how Fe and Fi respectively empathize...

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Originally Posted by strrrng

the conflict in this thread is a pretty good example of how Fe and Fi respectively empathize...

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Care to elaborate? I just see it as a personal conflict between alyen and maritsa ...

In my view Fi is empathetic if they know the feeling very well ('oh, I have been through that and I know etc.') and if the feeling they 'should' empathize with is authentic (not too dramatic and not oriented towards getting sympathy, but pure and contained). Ah and also Fi is decidedly more empathetic in close relationships and with people they like. Fe would be more like 'you should be empathetic when someone is sick' etc. and act on that regardless of the personal stuff someone feels in a given situation.

That's the most I can generalize about Fi vs Fe and empathy. Otherwise I agree empathy is a human trait and frequently highly dependent on context.

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Originally Posted by strrrng

the conflict in this thread is a pretty good example of how Fe and Fi respectively empathize...

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Since i've been in this thread - you are getting some responses lol.

My take on it from a functional POV is this:

As Fi is subjective it is more concerned with how *it* feels, to do OK with an Fi type you have to correspond with how they feel about things then they extend empathy.

As Fe is external it is more inclined to put on the other persons shoes so to speak, it looks at external reasons/feelings rather than the personal take on the ethical situation.

For me Maritsa is demonstrating an Fi approach in how I explained it.

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Originally Posted by Words

Since i've been in this thread - you are getting some responses lol.

My take on it from a functional POV is this:

As Fi is subjective it is more concerned with how *it* feels, to do OK with an Fi type you have to correspond with how they feel about things then they extend empathy.

As Fe is external it is more inclined to put on the other persons shoes so to speak, it looks at external reasons/feelings rather than the personal take on the ethical situation.

For me Maritsa is demonstrating an Fi approach in how I explained it.

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I think I am starting to understand a bit more the difference between Fi and Fe. I can and do push my personal feelings aside when I know they will not be helpful to anyone involved. I can smile and laugh while crying inside but my personal feelings don't stop me from feeling exactly what another is feeling. It doesn't even depend on my past experiences. I can empathize with people who are experiencing things I have never lived through. I remember the Tsunami that killed so many. I was torn up for months after that. Had nightmares about Tsunamis, days before it happened, then months after. But there are situations for example, terrorist killing, where I am more objective and can sort of empathize with both sides so I have to push my personal feelings aside and just try to see it objectively. Except for beheadings, those really dig into my psyche and bother me more than a bombing would. I know it may sound irrational but that's how it is. I want to say more here but not sure what, yet. :/

Edit: Re: Bombing vs beheadings. I thought about why I feel the way I do about these situations. In a bombing people don't see it coming, usually, and that is preferable to me than a beheading, where you know it's coming and it's slow and painful at the same time. I imagine it seems like an eternity before the person actually loses consciousness. *shivers*

Logically I understand that bombings are traumatic to those involved but the level of psychological suffering inflicted upon them beforehand seems far less horrible to me somehow. :cry:

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Originally Posted by Sienna

Care to elaborate? I just see it as a personal conflict between alyen and maritsa ...

In my view Fi is empathetic if they know the feeling very well ('oh, I have been through that and I know etc.') and if the feeling they 'should' empathize with is authentic (not too dramatic and not oriented towards getting sympathy, but pure and contained). Ah and also Fi is decidedly more empathetic in close relationships and with people they like. Fe would be more like 'you should be empathetic when someone is sick' etc. and act on that regardless of the personal stuff someone feels in a given situation.

That's the most I can generalize about Fi vs Fe and empathy. Otherwise I agree empathy is a human trait and frequently highly dependent on context.

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I generally agree with your generalization. basically the way I see this thread proceeding, is with aylen operating in a more direct, emotionally tactile way ('I'm reading between the lines,' 'I understand what you're saying'), almost implying a kind of emotional common ground, or at least some frame of reference which makes the various forms of expression if not fully understandable at least somewhat coherent. this is how Fe "empathizes": emotion is seen as objective, collective, there's always some kind of middle-ground that can grant both parties access to a certain level of insight. maritsa, on the contrary, is insisting on the singularity and self-containment by of her sentiments, completely to the exclusion of anything aylen is suggesting. Fi in some sense has more integrity in this way, since it's strictly about what resonates, but is also more shortsighted/limited... basic insight and a kind of silent empathy trump common understanding.

also, aylen as an IEI is being a little bit more passive and courteous -- an Fe-dominant would be more aggressive and demonstrate a similar but different kind of emotional starkness as an Fi-dominant (whereas an Fi-creative would be slightly more like an Fe-creative but still more self-contained).

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Originally Posted by Words

Since i've been in this thread - you are getting some responses lol.

My take on it from a functional POV is this:

As Fi is subjective it is more concerned with how *it* feels, to do OK with an Fi type you have to correspond with how they feel about things then they extend empathy.

As Fe is external it is more inclined to put on the other persons shoes so to speak, it looks at external reasons/feelings rather than the personal take on the ethical situation.

For me Maritsa is demonstrating an Fi approach in how I explained it.

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yeah, I basically see Fe empathizing via a context established by Ti, and Fi using Te as a kind of barometer for its inner sentiments.

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Originally Posted by Maritsa

Fe and Fi are stated consistently in my signature. I am typically more empathetic than most other human beings. Period. No human being is without all emotions and what situations bring things about doesn't make them that person. You are wrong for thinking that and wrong for coining me based on one situation that you observed.

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Here is a quote from Psycology today.

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Empathy is the experience of*understanding*another person's condition from their perspective. You place yourself in their shoes and feel what they are feeling. Empathy is known to increase prosocial (helping) behaviors.*

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Because we can't get into each other's minds, it is hard to know the level of empathy that a person is able to experience. But outward behavior and words usually reflect the heart - hence the prosocial behavior in the quote above. Some might call the behavior and words Fe. In my experience, my EII friends have pretty good Fe (prosocial or helping behaviors) even in situations where their kindness is not being reciprocated. They usually try to see both sides of situations which you would expect of an Ne valuing person.

I myself have not experienced that kind of prosocial behavior from @Maritsa. Even though a forum isn't always the best place for perfect understanding, it is pretty hard not to misunderstand when someone calls your ideas "outlandish," as she called mine in a recent thread. And it is pretty hard not to feel hurt when you are an EIE and your logic is being called into question in that way. So I am having a little trouble seeing the empathy in that situation.

I got 74 out of 80. No wonder I can create life long bonds with someone even after just meeting. ;)

http://www.brainfacts.org/brain-basics/neuroanatomy/articles/2008/mirror-neurons/

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Wikipedia: Empathy is the capacity to understand what another person is experiencing from within the other person's frame of reference, ie, the capacity to place oneself in another's shoes.

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To understand what a person is experiencing from their frame of reference, you probably have to put aside your own frame first. To understand you probably need more Information, so gathering more Information about the situation is a good way to go. It's better to remain neutral and open. Neutral so that you don't mix your own stuff in and open to not miss anything by judging things too soon. People usually are more cooperative and tell things, when they sense that you can help and that it's really about understanding them. I also think people trust persons more, who have shown that they can handle a situation (and show level headedness and understanding) but also remain neutral (are not biased by personal things etc.). Stuff is more complex irl. I know that, but what I want to say without writing a wall of text is, that I don't see how any of this could be limited by one function or encompassed by one function so that's the reason why I don't tie empathy to any function.

My psychic friend accused me of being an Empath. She said I'm observant like a wolf *howls* I'm just not into theatrics or dramatic displays of emotion. It's just too damn unmanly*places stein down on table* Whether its Fi or Fe, it's draining to be around negative emotions. I like atmospheric pleasantness. I try and avoid people who always seem to be in a bad mood. Some I try and cheer up a little, but even some of those get more agitated for you trying, so I've learned to just keep an emotional distance from most people. I'll just tell them to let me know if they need anything.

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Originally Posted by Iris

Here is a quote from Psycology today.


Because we can't get into each other's minds, it is hard to know the level of empathy that a person is able to experience. But outward behavior and words usually reflect the heart - hence the prosocial behavior in the quote above. Some might call the behavior and words Fe. In my experience, my EII friends have pretty good Fe (prosocial or helping behaviors) even in situations where their kindness is not being reciprocated. They usually try to see both sides of situations which you would expect of an Ne valuing person.

I myself have not experienced that kind of prosocial behavior from @Maritsa. Even though a forum isn't always the best place for perfect understanding, it is pretty hard not to misunderstand when someone calls your ideas "outlandish," as she called mine in a recent thread. And it is pretty hard not to feel hurt when you are an EIE and your logic is being called into question in that way. So I am having a little trouble seeing the empathy in that situation.

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You're not in my frame of reference. Ever and now never will be

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Originally Posted by Maritsa

You're not in my frame of reference. Ever and now never will be

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Why is that? I always try to appreciate explanations.

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Originally Posted by Iris

Why is that? I always try to appreciate explanations.

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Seems you have gotten the banhammer of her heart. You are still welcome in mine though. Happy :love: day.

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Originally Posted by Aylen

Seems you have gotten the banhammer of her heart. You are still welcome in mine though. Happy :love: day.

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Thank you, Friend.

"Your Empathy Quotient score was 31 out of a possible 80.
Scores above 30 are generally not indicitive of an Autism Spectrum disorder.

Higher scores indicate greater levels of empathy."

I got 39. I actually consider myself to have pretty good Fi and empathy as well, though it has been something I have had to work on.

Also I think it is not necessarily a correlation coefficient being judged between Fi and Fe. It just manifests itself in different ways. For example, I would say Fi has more to do with empathy based on individuals as opposed to group empathy and Fe would be the opposite. or Asis la vida.

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Originally Posted by Jimmers

My psychic friend accused me of being an Empath. She said I'm observant like a wolf *howls* I'm just not into theatrics or dramatic displays of emotion. It's just too damn unmanly*places stein down on table* Whether its Fi or Fe, it's draining to be around negative emotions. I like atmospheric pleasantness. I try and avoid people who always seem to be in a bad mood. Some I try and cheer up a little, but even some of those get more agitated for you trying, so I've learned to just keep an emotional distance from most people. I'll just tell them to let me know if they need anything.

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There was a time when I could not separate my feelings/emotions from other people. Like I didn't know that some of the stuff I was feeling was being imposed on me by others but only 'cause I allowed it to penetrate. This was very hard for me to handle as a child. I had a pretty good mentor who taught me how to differentiate (by questioning) my emotions from those of other people. I walk into a store and I am bombarded by the energy of other people. Like I can look at them and if they are angry I start to feel anger or aggressiveness build inside me. If they are being silly and playful I can emotionally feel it even though I am not part of it. It is like rapid emotional mood swings if I don't put this invisible shield around myself. It is part of the reason I can be such a recluse. I even seclude myself from others in my house just so their moods don't affect me. It is not easy keeping up a shield and unless I actively go in and change their moods, which I do sometimes when I had enough, I will feel overwhelmed. I will make a silly joke in the middle of an argument just to ease the tension that is building up in me. Seems to work because everyone starts laughing and then it is like they were never even feeling *fill in the blank* at all.

FTR: I live with all betas. An LSI and an IEI. They seclude themselves too so it isn't so bad. :lol:

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Originally Posted by Iris

Here is a quote from Psycology today.


Because we can't get into each other's minds, it is hard to know the level of empathy that a person is able to experience. But outward behavior and words usually reflect the heart - hence the prosocial behavior in the quote above. Some might call the behavior and words Fe. In my experience, my EII friends have pretty good Fe (prosocial or helping behaviors) even in situations where their kindness is not being reciprocated. They usually try to see both sides of situations which you would expect of an Ne valuing person.

I myself have not experienced that kind of prosocial behavior from @Maritsa. Even though a forum isn't always the best place for perfect understanding, it is pretty hard not to misunderstand when someone calls your ideas "outlandish," as she called mine in a recent thread. And it is pretty hard not to feel hurt when you are an EIE and your logic is being called into question in that way. So I am having a little trouble seeing the empathy in that situation.

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Usually when I don't like someone I stay away from them as I have tried with you even though you're insisting pushy and evasive. My language and reaching out to help has been extended to many people here throughout many years.

Ugh. Misconception these days that Fi/Fe is a dichotomy describing purely the inner and outer ethics. As in Fi is purely the subjective and Fe is purely the emotional collective. Its such horse-shit MBTI garbage and I'm sick and tired of seeing this.

Fi/Fe are two separate, discreet facets of reality and the information filtered by them are also different.

Neither ethic type is more empathic then the other.

What IS different is how the ethical acts on the empathy. And even then I have my doubts.

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Originally Posted by Maritsa

Usually when I don't like someone I stay away from them as I have tried with you even though you're insisting pushy and evasive. My language and reaching out to help has been extended to many people here throughout many years.

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Perhaps you could give some examples of how my insisting, pushy behavior has offended you.

I think it is interesting that because you view me as your intellectual inferior, you feel it is ok to call me an idiot. Perhaps my inferiority makes me unworthy of the empathy that you extend to others.

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Originally Posted by Jimmers

My psychic friend accused me of being an Empath. She said I'm observant like a wolf *howls* I'm just not into theatrics or dramatic displays of emotion. It's just too damn unmanly*places stein down on table* Whether its Fi or Fe, it's draining to be around negative emotions. I like atmospheric pleasantness. I try and avoid people who always seem to be in a bad mood. Some I try and cheer up a little, but even some of those get more agitated for you trying, so I've learned to just keep an emotional distance from most people. I'll just tell them to let me know if they need anything.

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I have been thinking more on what you say here and we are really not that different. I think we are just using different words to explain something similar. I call it my invisible shield and I imagine a bubble around me, if things are too intense, but really it is just emotional distancing. Thanks for the insight.

No one likes to be called out on their flaws, but really I doubt it's going to change anything at this point, guys. Those kinds of changes only come about with huge revelations and even those are rare.

People are just going to get defensive because their back is against the wall. A because they are defensive nothing will get through anyway (unless there is this foundation of intensive self-awareness).

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Originally Posted by Iris

Perhaps you could give some examples of how my insisting, pushy behavior has offended you.

I think it is interesting that because you view me as your intellectual inferior, you feel it is ok to call me an idiot. Perhaps my inferiority makes me unworthy of the empathy that you extend to others.

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I called you an idiot because one you take guesses that don't coincide with anything that I'm thinking of such as you assuming that i view you as my inferior and that is why I call you an idiot. You may be judging by how others judge you by some hierarchy which I do not. I judge you based on your comprehention of what I'm writing and two that you often don't show that you comprehend when I say or others say that I'm EII and why.

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Originally Posted by Maritsa

I called you an idiot because one you take guesses that don't coincide with anything that I'm thinking of such as you assuming that i view you as my inferior and that is why I call you an idiot. You may be judging by how others judge you by some hierarchy which I do not. I judge you based on your comprehention of what I'm writing and two that you often don't show that you comprehend when I say or others say that I'm EII and why.

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I am curious to know what you hoped to accomplish by calling me an idiot.

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Originally Posted by Iris

I am curious to know what you hoped to accomplish by calling me an idiot.

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I was pused and angered far enough for a reaction. It wasn't to get you to do anything or accomplish something.

too many questions

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Originally Posted by mercutio

too many questions

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I knew you would say that. I must be psychic. :whistle:

Man, some of you make this seem so much more complicated than it is.

Introversion as ontologically defined by Jung deals with the subjective world, how we each come to experience reality. Extroversion is the focus on the outer world. Practically speaking, Fe sees and influences observable emotional cues; Fi looks deeper, to motivations and what's going on behind the external emotions and uses that in their decision making. But someone that is a feeling type is going to have both Fi and Fe, so Fe and Fi types are going to share both of these aspects, yet each value one over the other. So yes, they are both empathy.

really, that's it,

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Originally Posted by Nyx

Man, some of you make this seem so much more complicated than it is.

Introversion as ontologically defined by Jung deals with the subjective world, how we each come to experience reality. Extroversion is the focus on the outer world. Practically speaking, Fe sees and influences observable emotional cues; Fi looks deeper, to motivations and what's going on behind the external emotions and uses that in their decision making. But someone that is a feeling type is going to have both Fi and Fe, so Fe and Fi types are going to share both of these aspects, yet each value one over the other. So yes, they are both empathy.

really, that's it,

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That's not really what Jung meant imo.

If introversion deals with the subjective internal world as you put it, why would it deal with your world, that's external.

Maybe some of the responses here seem complex to you because your solution isn't right.

Your Empathy Quotient score was 53 out of a possible 80. I lack the Autism apparently.

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Originally Posted by Nyx

. But someone that is a feeling type is going to have both Fi and Fe, so Fe and Fi types are going to share both of these aspects, yet each value one over the other. So yes, they are both empathy.

really, that's it,

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That's exactly what I've been thinking. Both Fi and Fe valuers are empathetic just show it in a different way. INTj appreciates different "empathy showing" than ESTj. ESFj shows their sadness loud, INFj quietly. Sometimes what one does seems artificial or indifferent to another.
:)

Your Empathy Quotient score was 14 out of a possible 80.

No. :( The test is wrong. I have empathy. It asks too many questions about social savvy and being able to read people's minds. That is all.

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Originally Posted by QuickTwist

Also I think it is not necessarily a correlation coefficient being judged between Fi and Fe. It just manifests itself in different ways. For example, I would say Fi has more to do with empathy based on individuals as opposed to group empathy and Fe would be the opposite. or Asis la vida.

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Could you maybe explain what you mean by group empathy? I read it a couple of different ways. I can empathize with groups of people but it is usually the individuals whose stories touch me that I have the most empathy for. It is easier to be less empathetic to groups because the group may not have a "face". It just depends on how well I can connect to their pain or sorrow. It is far easier to do one on one because then you are not as overwhelmed by the feelings of everyone all at once. Feeling everyone else's emotions all at once is a whole different kind of experience for me. It's not empathizing by putting myself in another's shoes. It is more like a mood shower and I'm trying to not to get wet. Unless it is a pleasant shower.

I mean I cried for 5 minutes during the last episode of Vampire Diaries 'cause I felt empathy for the characters as individuals. The storyline in that episode reminded me of what it felt like to lose what you love most. I wasn't even feeling sad for me. I felt sad for characters and I obviously knew it wasn't real. Sort of embarrassed to admit that.

One other thing. Those who can empathize with me best, know not to point out that I am crying over the Vampire Diaries. They just stay quiet since they know I am already embarrassed about it. Sometimes there is that one person in the room that looks over and calls attention to it and makes fun of me and I feel self conscious and weak. :/ I have an ESE sister who wants to be comforted when she is crying during movies so I will take her hand and hold it but I won't make a big deal out of it because I wouldn't want that done to me.

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Originally Posted by Aylen

Could you maybe explain what you mean by group empathy? I read it a couple of different ways. I can empathize with groups of people but it is usually the individuals whose stories touch me that I have the most empathy for. It is easier to be less empathetic to groups because the group may not have a "face". It just depends on how well I can connect to their pain or sorrow. It is far easier to do one on one because then you are not as overwhelmed by the feelings of everyone all at once. Feeling everyone else's emotions all at once is a whole different kind of experience for me. It's not empathizing by putting myself in another's shoes. It is more like a mood shower and I'm trying to not to get wet. Unless it is a pleasant shower.

I mean I cried for 5 minutes during the last episode of Vampire Diaries 'cause I felt empathy for the characters as individuals. The storyline in that episode reminded me of what it felt like to lose what you love most. I wasn't even feeling sad for me. I felt sad for characters and I obviously knew it wasn't real. Sort of embarrassed to admit that.

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I think I pretty much just said it in a terrible way. Basically, compromising yourself for others benefit and being a martyr of sorts as Fe and being selfish and being a Pre-Madonna being Fi. But to say that An Fi user can't accommodate others or that Fe users can't see personal meaning in something is just plain silly. But to clarify, both can be just as empathetic as the other and it isn't necessarily having to do with I or E but rather that you just end up with the I version or E version.

My God I sound so basic... Just pretend I didn't say anything, K?

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Originally Posted by QuickTwist

I think I pretty much just said it in a terrible way. Basically, compromising yourself for others benefit and being a martyr of sorts as Fe and being selfish and being a Pre-Madonna being Fi. But to say that An Fi user can't accommodate others or that Fe users can't see personal meaning in something is just plain silly. But to clarify, both can be just as empathetic as the other and it isn't necessarily having to do with I or E but rather that you just end up with the I version or E version.

My God I sound so basic... Just pretend I didn't say anything, K?

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We'll pretend like this never happened. :shifty:

I was going to add that I really do not like to be babied when upset, just understood, and it is always cool when someone just "knows" what you need in that moment, even if it is leaving you alone until you are ready to talk about it or let it go like it never happened.

:lol:

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Originally Posted by Aylen

We'll pretend like this never happened. :shifty:

I was going to add that I really do not like to be babied when upset, just understood, and it is always cool when someone just "knows" what you need in that moment, even if it is leaving you alone until you are ready to talk about it or let it go like it never happened.

:lol:

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After rereading the OP, and to answer the question more directly, Fe tend to have more empathy (here's looking at you Fe, Ni and Ni, Fe).

I think the idea of a multiple choice survey measuring one’s capacity for empathy is kind of silly (there are people who love giving themselves more credit than they deserve and people who always sell themselves short). I feel like I am as empathetic as I am not. It’s not something in me that lives an unfettered existence but comes and goes. A lot depends on my internal circumstances: how open I am and how I feel about myself, what I can dream up and whether or not I feel lost or trapped. I can be really careless about other people’s feelings; sometimes I know it in the moment and others I look back and think “oh god, I did that?” Something as simple as being silent when someone could’ve used a word or saying something at all when silence would’ve been better. But god knows, it’s been much worse than that. But I can be really thoughtful too and surprised by how well people respond to the smallest gesture or someone telling me they were thankful I knew what they felt even when they tried to hide it. Everyone is different and what you think you want and need from people absolutely changes depending on who is or isn’t in the room with you. There are limits to what a single person has to offer but also innumerable ways empathy can be expressed, as many and more as moments in which people exist. I don’t think one’s capacity for empathy is heightened by having ethics in the ego block, neither is it lessened by logic. People care or they don’t, and it’s tenuous and circumstantial. Who knows what someone might regret tomorrow?

The test is a bit harsh but - it is (to me) asking questions about how others respond to you, so it is an objective method of measuring rather than just asking a person what they imagine will happen.

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Originally Posted by sacral

I think the idea of a multiple choice survey measuring one’s capacity for empathy is kind of silly (there are people who love giving themselves more credit than they deserve and people who always sell themselves short). I feel like I am as empathetic as I am not. It’s not something in me that lives an unfettered existence but comes and goes. A lot depends on my internal circumstances: how open I am and how I feel about myself, what I can dream up and whether or not I feel lost or trapped. I can be really careless about other people’s feelings; sometimes I know it in the moment and others I look back and think “oh god, I did that?” Something as simple as being silent when someone could’ve used a word or saying something at all when silence would’ve been better. But god knows, it’s been much worse than that. But I can be really thoughtful too and surprised by how well people respond to the smallest gesture or someone telling me they were thankful I knew what they felt even when they tried to hide it. Everyone is different and what you think you want and need from people absolutely changes depending on who is or isn’t in the room with you. There are limits to what a single person has to offer but also innumerable ways empathy can be expressed, as many and more as moments in which people exist. I don’t think one’s capacity for empathy is heightened by having ethics in the ego block, neither is it lessened by logic. People care or they don’t, and it’s tenuous and circumstantial. Who knows what someone might regret tomorrow?

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This is exactly what was going through my mind as well, thanks for putting it so beautifully.

Edit:

*Moved to blog*


which I have set to private temporarily.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sacral

I think the idea of a multiple choice survey measuring one’s capacity for empathy is kind of silly (there are people who love giving themselves more credit than they deserve and people who always sell themselves short). I feel like I am as empathetic as I am not. It’s not something in me that lives an unfettered existence but comes and goes. A lot depends on my internal circumstances: how open I am and how I feel about myself, what I can dream up and whether or not I feel lost or trapped. I can be really careless about other people’s feelings; sometimes I know it in the moment and others I look back and think “oh god, I did that?” Something as simple as being silent when someone could’ve used a word or saying something at all when silence would’ve been better. But god knows, it’s been much worse than that. But I can be really thoughtful too and surprised by how well people respond to the smallest gesture or someone telling me they were thankful I knew what they felt even when they tried to hide it. Everyone is different and what you think you want and need from people absolutely changes depending on who is or isn’t in the room with you. There are limits to what a single person has to offer but also innumerable ways empathy can be expressed, as many and more as moments in which people exist. I don’t think one’s capacity for empathy is heightened by having ethics in the ego block, neither is it lessened by logic. People care or they don’t, and it’s tenuous and circumstantial. Who knows what someone might regret tomorrow?

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I know that in my case a lot of people think I'm not empathetic becauae I can be reactive and prickly however my emotions are more affected by those closest to me. I also don't understand how one can call you less empathetic when they want forgiveness for having used you purposefully. That to me is malicious. I think the true judge of empathy should not fall on people like that but then I've maybe met a hand full of people who I judge as qualified evaluators

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Originally Posted by Maritsa

I called you an idiot because one you take guesses that don't coincide with anything that I'm thinking of such as you assuming that i view you as my inferior and that is why I call you an idiot. You may be judging by how others judge you by some hierarchy which I do not. I judge you based on your comprehention of what I'm writing and two that you often don't show that you comprehend when I say or others say that I'm EII and why.

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Name calling is bullying behavior.

http://www.evancarmichael.com/Work-L...Workplace.html

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... yelling or name calling, snide comments, publicly picking on mistakes and belittling the opinions of others...these are all intentionally aggressive acts aimed at controlling another person or diminishing their social value. These acts expose the perpetuator as a person with a low empathy ethic because they are unable to recognize how their aggressiveness impacts others.

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Before now, I have not responded to the little jabs and insults that you have aimed at me and others on this forum because I frankly did not want to face the emotional outbursts that I have seen you direct at others. But I could not be silent on the subject of your empathy, when I have experienced otherwise from you, with no provocation.

I apologize for the delayed response. I have been out of town and have trouble posting from my phone. Since you have called me evasive, I wanted you to know that no disrespect was intended. I also apologize for upsetting you with this subject.

Apparently the derail age thread was closed but just wanted to respond to Maritsa.

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http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Aylen http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...post-right.png
Of the two arguments the first one is the one that would reflect my beliefs. As for the second argument, I actively seek out people different than me to test myself in all kinds of ways, so I am not against those who come from an argument two perspective. I do poke people a bit but I am not being malicious. I just want to see what they're made of underneath the public persona. I want to see what is "real" even if it isn't politically correct. It's my way of confirming my own intuition of people and situations. I can imagine this or that about someone but until I find a way to expose it, there are still doubts of my ability to read people. I guess I just need some validation of what I feel but not from the other person. It all comes from within. I feel a lot of empathy for @Kim and not just for her views in this thread. I also feel empathy for others in this thread . I have things that bother me.

Edit: as for my little outburst... I am very protective of people I love.

Maritsa responds:
To figure someone like me out by pushing to define boundaries and making me upset in the process is malicious to me and how is that not an action that progrwsses from a stereotypical view of how people should be gotten to know?

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Not everything is about you Maritsa. My statement was general. I was not trying to figure you out because you are pretty much "what you see is what you get". That's fine.

Edit: I got what I wanted from this thread.

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Originally Posted by wacey

Ugh. Misconception these days that Fi/Fe is a dichotomy describing purely the inner and outer ethics. As in Fi is purely the subjective and Fe is purely the emotional collective. Its such horse-shit MBTI garbage and I'm sick and tired of seeing this.

Fi/Fe are two separate, discreet facets of reality and the information filtered by them are also different.

Neither ethic type is more empathic then the other.

What IS different is how the ethical acts on the empathy. And even then I have my doubts.

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That also sounds pretty Jungian, how do you differentiate the two?

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Originally Posted by Bluebird

I was thinking about this. I think, personally, for me, I might be confusing Holographic-Panoramic thinking (or Ne) for empathy. I wonder if that is possible...of course that would put a hole in my self-typing, if it is HP, but I'm not that attached to it anyhow, as I'm the same no matter what type I am, anyway...but I wonder if the two can be confused, like if it's similar to the other, but HP is more detached. If I've properly grasped what HP is. I honestly feel kind of detached when I use empathy. Like it's just to gain perspective or something. Like placing myself in another's shoes, and then hoping into another, and then another, in the same situation to gain perspective, while trying to remain emotionally detached...the more I know them, the easier it is, since I am more familiar with how they think or react. Any holes are filled probably primarily by projection or imagination.

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I agree.

I recall a few years ago I described my form of empathy as looking at something from the other person's shoes, through their values not mine, through what i knew of their experiences rather than my own. Basically temporarily setting aside my own values/experiences and trying to see their situation/event from their perspective.

At the time I had attributed it to Ne's abstractness letting me detach from my own perspective, combined with what I know of their own attractions/repulsions (Fi), allowed me to step into their shoes. Both being internal elements means finding the meaning or implications of the combination.

I've since learned that HP could have something to do with what I was describing, but I think each HP type would represent a different method. And as I think about what the others would be paying attention to, I still hesitate to call that empathy....however, since I also tend not to consider Se/Ti info, I obviously miss quite a lot of info about the person.

Which brings me around to since I focus on Ne/Fi/Si/Te info, i'm missing about half the info needed to fully understand the person's pov. Add in the dimensions, and that missing amount increases. Add in that i'm trying to grasp the pov of a differing type, and even more is missing.

So, while i think each type can see some aspects of the person, they inevitably must fill in (project) the rest from their own imagination/experiences/values.

It is interesting to note that certain types of psychopaths (e.g. people with Narcissistic Personality Disorder) use the vocabulary of empathy to gain trust from others so that they can manipulate and control them. When in reality they are incapable of feeling anything.

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The narcissist makes an effort to communicate his pain and shame in order to elicit the Narcissistic Supply he needs to restore and regulate his failing sense of self-worth. In doing so, the narcissist resorts to the human vocabulary of empathy. The narcissist will say anything to obtain Narcissistic Supply. It is a manipulative ploy -- not a confession of real emotions or an authentic description of internal dynamics.

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Originally Posted by McBain

Your Empathy Quotient score was 29 out of a possible 80.Scores of 30 or less indicate a lack of empathy common in people with Autism or Asperger’s Syndrome.

This test is hilarious.

Again, as I've said before -- unless you've gone through like a traumatic episode or experienced tragedy or undue hardship, I'm not really going to care that much if like your boyfriend or girlfriend broke up with you. I'm more concerned about wider sociological and global issues. Many of these questions are garbage like, "Oh you must be empathetic because you don't hurt people's feelings." Puuuuuuhleeeeaaaasssse in certain circumstances cruelty is the most empathetic action and I would rather someone be an honest asshole than an overly nice passive aggressive snake.

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This is what most AS say.

Hehe in fairness I can be like this myself lol

There's also a difference between empathy in the present and empathy in an abstract sense. I have less immediate empathy on the spot that may demand an immediate response, but much more on self reflection and the meaning of the occurrence over time. For instance, someone may be crying or highly emotional and I just want to get away from the strong emotion, but if I know that person has been hurting for quite sometime and it is not just a show to get attention or a "poor me" then I will actually visualize what their world looks like to them and I will then feel what that must be like. This is why movies or music will often have a strong affect on my emotions. It is because they are often representative of emotions over time and how they affect people, like that emotionally repressed father that finally chokes up when something tragic happens. It just confirms what you always suspected about them. It makes you wonder what their life must have been like growing up to force their emotions underground.

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Originally Posted by McBain

Like what? A passive aggressive snake or an asshole? lol

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AS is not realising these things, colloqially it's about your suggestions lol, do you get this or sth?

Empathy is a term coined by emotionnal ppl for naming what is it to "try to be in another head" in an emotionnal way.
Actually everyone sometime try to "be in another head" in their way, probably thru their higher function.

Didn't log to this site since 1 year and got 0 notification, fuck you all you BS motherfucker

There are many facets to empathy. Part of empathy is simple comprehension, which can amount to almost anything. The part where you mirror someone's inner states sounds like it would be most doable by Ni+Fe.

Being an empathetic person in general is a human trait, like Suz said, and is not limited to any given type. Being empathetic involves some confluence of the various facets, and types bring something or the other to the table.

I have been accused of having no empathy by second party. The ones I actually interact with usually don't usually experience my lack of empathy. I don't handle Fi well. I score average in EQ. It is just that I logically piece together same things and I use objective F. I just don't care about subjective F when it comes to myself and others. I pick it up via logic and their behavioral patterns. Sure I look deficient to strangers but if they I would invest to it something else than first impression and elaborated a bit their inner state... I'm not pushy, I don't treat people badly but you can count on me that I will correct their logic and give weird perspectives, everything else gets free pass unless you have betrayed other individuals. Then it is good bye. I try to improve everything. I'm very chill guy when other's emotions goes through the roof and let them calm down.

No I don't do the subjective experience/shoe fitting thing. I see very little value in it. I feel very sympathy from objective basis (objective F which is formed by observations,patterns and external F signs) but sympathy is not empathy.

Your Empathy Quotient score was 34 out of a possible 80.Scores above 30 are generally not indicitive of an Autism Spectrum disorder.Higher scores indicate greater levels of empathy.

wtf.

18. When I was a child, I enjoyed cutting up worms to see what would happen.

Your Empathy Quotient score was 68 out of a possible 80.

I view empathy as Fi

Sympathy is Fe

Fi can be an internal understanding, feeling which emotional understanding is achieved
Fe is often a external emoting, a show of emotional support which is expressed outwardly

This aligns with how Empathy and Sympathy is differentiated definition wise.

But the way it manifests is sometimes quite different, especially with individuals that have 4d Fi or 4d Fe

IXFX types have 4d Fi and they either conscious or unconscious emotional understanding which may or may not be right, however this understanding is strong and a powerful motivator which drives the creative function in different ways, either as ego first function or super-id 8th function.

EXFX types have 4d Fe and they can provide passionate support for various causes all the while only desiring/acquiring a limited emphatic understanding of the cause.

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Originally Posted by mu4

I view empathy as Fi

Sympathy is Fe

Fi can be an internal understanding, feeling which emotional understanding is achieved
Fe is often a external emoting, a show of emotional support which is expressed outwardly

This aligns with how Empathy and Sympathy is differentiated definition wise.

But the way it manifests is sometimes quite different, especially with individuals that have 4d Fi or 4d Fe

IXFX types have 4d Fi and they either conscious or unconscious emotional understanding which may or may not be right, however this understanding is strong and a powerful motivator which drives the creative function in different ways, either as ego first function or super-id 8th function.

EXFX types have 4d Fe and they can provide passionate support for various causes all the while only desiring/acquiring a limited emphatic understanding of the cause.

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I do not consider myself a sympathetic person because to me sympathy is pity and I think pitying someone is discounting them and their inner strength to deal with life's hardships. I am not one to commiserate but I can, rarely, if it is something I strongly relate to. That is usually nothing more than self-pity that allows me to commiserate and I do not want to feel that I am pathetic so I will not entertain those feelings for long.

Commiserating with someone does them no good other than a momentary feeling of validation that they have have been harmed, in some way, by circumstances out of their control. I think it is best when someone empathizes with me and does not reinforce my self-pity. If they offer me pity I will feel pathetic rather than understood. :( I do not like people being too harsh though when telling me I am being pathetic and stop it. I would rather they say nothing at all if they cannot do it in a way that does not make me angry with them.

I can relate to the term empathy, much better, regardless of the function it is processed through. Maybe those with a strong natural ability to empathize with others involves a more balanced use of both Fe and Fi. I dunno. I don't agree with the idea that everyone can naturally empathize from birth but the ability is there should they choose to work on it.

I know someone (logical type) who did not do it naturally but they taught themselves to by observing me, asking me questions, and then emulating me, until they discovered what it felt like to empathize for themselves. It was like a real life "Grinch" story. This person was an overachiever and at some point wanted to develop his EQ since his IQ was around genius level already.

I kind of believe empathy is a choice once you learn how to turn it off and on. Sometimes it is just too much for me to deal with. It is like in the Vampire Diaries when they turn off their humanity switch. hahah I turn off my empathy, when it is not needed, so I am not overwhelmed by other people.

https://33.media.tumblr.com/48e6a1e3...fe8mo2_250.gif

I actually still care but not in a way that interferes with my ability to function. Like I don't want to walk into a store and be affected by other people's energy.

Edit: I still find myself in situations where I cannot easily turn it off but I am still working on that.

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Originally Posted by Aylen

I do not consider myself a sympathetic person because to me sympathy is pity and I think pitying someone is discounting them and their inner strength to deal with life's hardships. I am not one to commiserate but I can, rarely, if it is something I strongly relate to. That is usually nothing more than self-pity that allows me to commiserate and I do not want to feel that I am pathetic so I will not entertain those feelings for long.

Commiserating with someone does them no good other than a momentary feeling of validation that they have have been harmed in some way by circumstance out of their control. I think it is best when someone empathizes with me and does not reinforce my self-pity. If they offer me pity I will feel pathetic rather than understood. :( I do not like people being too harsh though when telling me I am being pathetic and stop it. I would rather they say nothing at all if they cannot do it in a way that does not make me angry with them.

I can relate to the term empathy, much better, regardless of the function it is processed through. Maybe those with a strong natural ability to empathize with others involves a more balanced use of both Fe and Fi. I dunno. I don't agree with the idea that everyone can naturally empathize from birth but the ability is there should they choose to work on it.

I know someone (logical type) who did not do it naturally but they taught themselves to by observing me, asking me questions, and then emulating me, until they discovered what it felt like to empathize for themselves. It was like a real life "Grinch" story. This person was an overachiever and at some point wanted to develop his EQ since his IQ was around genius level already.

I kind of believe empathy is a choice once you learn how to turn it off and on. Sometimes it just too much for me to deal with. It is like in the Vampire Diaries when they turn off their humanity switch. hahah I turn off my empathy, when it is not needed, so I am not overwhelmed by other people.

https://33.media.tumblr.com/48e6a1e3...fe8mo2_250.gif

I actually still care but not in a way that interferes with my ability to function. Like I don't want to walk into a store and be affected by other people's energy.

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I don't think sympathy is necessarily is out of pity, support doesn't have to come out of just pity, it can also arise from need or a sort of collective coherence. Things like nationalism are both sympathetic and emphatic and neither is necessarily based on some sort of pity. However by offering support or aid there is a sense of volitional agency that can be achieved which although is not rooted in pity, is rooted in this sense of agency.

One can be concerned for the well being of individuals around them, but it doesn't have to be due to pity.

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Originally Posted by mu4

I don't think sympathy is necessarily is out of pity, support doesn't have to come out of just pity, it can also arise from need or a sort of collective coherence. Things like nationalism are both sympathetic and emphatic and neither is necessarily based on some sort of pity. However by offering support or aid there is a sense of volitional agency that can be achieved which although is not rooted in pity, is rooted in this sense of agency.

One can be concerned for the well being of individuals around them, but it doesn't have to be due to pity.

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I don't really disagree with you. It is my own personal association with the word pity that makes me prefer empathy to sympathy. The bold part is empathy to me. You can also care yet not be concerned with other's choices. I just have an aversion to the word sympathy because of it's association with pity.

There are many ways to comfort people without pitying them but commiserating is not usually one of them since it reinforces self-pity in my perception. I do comfort people that are close to me. Sometimes just by hugging them when words would be meaningless. I usually do not comfort those I am not personally involved with. I have learned to tell people I am sorry for their loss, or whatever, instead of trying to make them feel better when I know that they don't want to feel better.

I tend to see most people who are trying to illicit an expression of pity/sympathy from me as being manipulative. My mom was a "poor me" shower me with acknowledgement of my suffering, kind of person. I don't think it was helpful when her friends would do that.

An example: I was a "wild child" and uncontrollable. Her friends would reinforce that she was just dealt a bad hand by having me. hahah Instead they should have been encouraging her to stop feeling sorry for herself and do everything she could to take back control of her own child.

The other problem is my mother could not empathize with me, even though she herself was a "wild child", therefore she did not have the skills needed to get me back on track. I had to get that kind of positive guidance from "outsiders" . Had my mother empathized with me, instead of viewing me as some kind of curse for her own childhood behavior, my life might have been different.

I do not feel sorry for myself, because of my childhood, and I certainly do not want others to feel sorry for me. I am actually grateful for all those experiences since it helped me to become the person I am today.

I do like to share my experiences because I feel like they show that no obstacle or circumstance has made me a bitter, angry, or cynical adult. I know some people will be upset by my stories and want to pity me and some will empathize. I prefer the empathy. When people start to sympathize with me I find myself wanting to change their flow of emotions to a more positive perspective and to show them that damage can be repaired.

I also know that some people are like my mom and that is just how they are. Nothing truly wrong (except in my own perception) with that but I am not going to load them with sympathy when I feel they need something different. I would rather bite my tongue than say "poor you". I will give them a hug when I feel that words would just make it worse. I hugged my mom a lot even though she did not like it. :D Otherwise we might have killed each other. She is LSI, ftr.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDpQXO7gklg&t=38

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Originally Posted by William

What a trainwreck of a thread. Anyway, my 2 cents. Let's bring in some definitions. Starting with how the Socionics Institute defines Fe & Fi:

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Wow, and you didn't swerve to avoid ramming your car right into it! You must not have seen it coming until it was too late to hit the brakes and avoid collision.. :)

Your post has some formatting issues which made me not want to read it.

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Originally Posted by McBain

Yeah I think that maybe Fe or Fi might differentiate various empathetic responses and understandings of empathy but neither is the defining function of whether or not one is empathetic.

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Very well said. :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by William

Thanks for the quote notification to basically say you didn't give a shit to read my well thought-out post.

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I was just returning the favor to you for coming in and immediately calling the thread a trainwreck when people obviously shared their own well thought out ideas on the subject. Well thought out presentation goes a long way when wanting to share information. Don't you think? Why would you expect others to consider your offerings after calling theirs a trainwreck?

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Originally Posted by Aylen

I was just returning the favor to you for coming in and immediately calling the thread a trainwreck when people obviously shared their own well thought out ideas on the subject. Well thought out presentation goes a long way when wanting to share information. Don't you think? Why would you expect others to consider your offerings after calling theirs a trainwreck?

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I felt the same as you, incidentally...

INFj

As already said, linking empathy with types/functions is highly questionable. Actions are what really counts, so it doesn't matter if someone (logical types for example) don't feel something if they do what's right and offer support for people/causes in different way. Just feeling empathy and doing nothing = who gives a shit, unless you want a golden star for being a "good person". But to stir some shit up, I see Fi types as mostly empathetic towards their OWN feelings.

I had to learn in English what the distinction between empathy and sympathy even means, because in my language we don't have it - we only use empathy and sympathy/sympathetic means something completely else. So it's really unnatural to think in these two categories. Nor do I understand how one can use only empathy or only sympathy in its rawest definition - they are interwined.

I see myself as empathetic, because I do understand other's emotional states and my emotional states naturally mirror others. I don't like seeing people unhappy and want to improve their mood. I also think I'm very good with offering emotional support if I feel like it. But my responses are quite short-term and I can also turn the empathy completely off if I hate someone - I get really calm and rationally feel metal wall lowering between me and my emotions and I start feeling nothing and not caring what happens to this person (=wishing them all the worst) - I don't see them as human anymore, if I decide so. These are extreme examples though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Evwgu369Jw
@darya

@wacey

Nice video, but do you see Fi as empathy in this case and Fe as sympathy? Cause I don't at all...It depends on the situation whether you react as a deer or a bear...whether you feel the problems of the fox are difficult enough to justify such a reaction and whether you want to connect with the fox in the first place. Deer just seem like a plain old asshole, I still don't get how she's supposed to be sympathetic in any way :)

The problem I have with this video is that it's too black/white and simplistic...the same I see sometimes Fi egos dividing people into good people/bad people categories and putting labels on their moral character from their subjective pov, which I find irritating.

No, the video was just talking about the difference between sympathy and empathy as those words are defined and how the act of the two play out in real life situations. If you ever take counselling classes, or active listening training, you would notice these definitions are sort of bread and butter for social workers, psychologists, councillors, school counsellors ect.

Like I've stated before, I do not believe the ability to empathize is related to an informational element. However, I do think how a guy choses to act on that empathy might fit into an Fe or Fi category. I can't really think of any examples of the top of my head.

Always liked compassion over empathy. Empathy makes you too weak and goyim-y kind of, okay so you absorb what they went through, but what about your OWN experiences and identity? Compassion feels like 'bad-ass' empathy sort of. A woman for example is way more likely to date a man with compassion than with empathy. Women also hold compassion in a higher regard than empathy. Those completely on the bottom of the social totem pole are the empathetic ones.

Empathy is everybody being stuck in that same shitty situation along with everybody else and being powerless to stop it, compassion is one person rising above it and holding a hand out for others to be more powerful like they learned how to be. Yeah that is more snooty but it's actually more helpful. Also powerful people exploit and manipulate the empathy of others all the time. It is a lot harder to exploit and manipulate compassion.

sympathy



noun, plural sympathies.1.harmony of or agreement in feeling, as between persons or on the partof one person with respect to another.

2.the harmony of feeling naturally existing between persons of like tastesor opinion or of congenial dispositions.

3.the fact or power of sharing the feelings of another, especially in sorrowor trouble; fellow feeling, compassion, or commiseration.

4.sympathies.

• feelings or impulses of compassion.
• feelings of favor, support, or loyalty:

Still not seeing how deer is sympathetic in any way :shrug: Not trying to be an asshole btw.

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Originally Posted by McBain

Sympathy is sometimes used interchangeably with empathy but can also mean pity. The deer in the video is demonstrating pity.

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Yeah, that's plain pity. But pity is not the same as compassion. Ok, thanks : )

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Originally Posted by William

So the real reason was you felt insulted about the trainwreck comment, and not any of your bullshit about formatting issues.

Well I appreciate your speaking up, especially if others shared your sentiment.

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[COLOR=#878787 !important][/COLOR]

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The two are not mutually exclusive. I often skip stuff with formatting issues, usually without comment to the poster. This time I commented. I said what I meant. Your opening comment just made it easier for me to do so.

It was not a matter of feeling insulted, at first. I found your lead in amusing and wondered why you bothered to post in a trainwreck, but the reason for your post comes out in your response to me. You feel you somehow have superior information to share.

I found it more arrogant that you assumed that others wanted to read your "well thought out" opinions after trashing theirs (by association). Whether that was your intention or not. It came off that way in your reply to me.

The only thing I find insulting is your accusation that my motives for responding were masked when they were not. I thought I was being pretty straightforward. You basically are calling me a liar and THAT is insulting.

"you felt insulted about the trainwreck comment, and not any of your bullshit about formatting issues."

Thanks for the 2 videos above. I am seriously like a walking blob of empathy! LOL Remember, I'm the silly one who scored 74 on that test? I am so empathetic, I can feel other's feelings so much, sometimes it is not helpful. ;) Sometimes I have to completely "Shut off" my empathy to move forward with someone or in a given situation and then I become cold hearted. (By my standards anyway) It's got to be type related the extreme role empathy plays in my life...

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Originally Posted by McBain

Perhaps one can chalk it up to a lack of empathy on my part but according to the definitions of empathy and sympathy (or pity) found in that video above with the cutesy animals, favoring connection above all I would say that I am not particularly concerned with that. Whenever someone is undergoing some hardship the desire to create some sort of connection as an end in itself never enters my mind. I tend to respond with the impulse to enact whatever can be done to help this person overcome this situation, to endure, to become stronger from it. In many respects I can totally relate to what @BulletsAndDoves is getting at in saying that empathy is for the weak -- that sort of connection is fine but sometimes it may not be what is actually needed in the long run. If it is apart of the process of helping a person or a group of persons then fine but I see it as too shortsighted as the primary goal itself, and perhaps even potentially self-indulgent.

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All valid points.

And see this is what the video is speaking about sympathy: trying to move the person from where they currently are on your terms, from the position of your shoes, your agenda. That comes much later in a space of acceptance. In order for a person to move forward with your help they need to feel validated and accepted. To be there for another person empathetically means to listen as a receiver, not as a critic. This is conveyed by having a desire to understand the other person, not seek agreement or change. Otherwise the other person is not empowered enough themselves to make their own changes.

A crisis is an emotional state we generate within ourselves as a result of our changing environment. Crisis, like the ones the animals talked about, requires that we draw from our inner strength to cope, as well as turn to others. It brings out both our strengths and our weaknesses. It can be a very humbling experience, but also a powerful one. It teaches us lessons, like those you talked about, it challenges us to move. Without it, we would never grow, or change.

To help a person in moments like this, especially, feelings of empathy and demonstrating that empathy is crucial in order for people to trust and open up with you.

To say that empathy is for the weak is something I could never agree with. Empathy is very powerful and like the video says does create a sort of sacred space around people. It can, however, be faked. (IE: Oprah) As well as bypassed (IE: Byron Katie).

What a person needs in the long run may or may not have anything to do with you. I agree. But building that connection with them might just be a catalyst for their own empowerment. People are not helpless. True empathy neither negates, nor minimizes what they are going through, nor does it attempt to rescue them by accommodating their feelings of helplessness.

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Originally Posted by William

Maybe if you actually read the post, you would understand why the information is superior in this trainwreck of a thread. I stand by my statement. Don't let one formatting issue at the beginning throw you off.

I believe you can read it. You are capable. At least be honest with yourself.

I read your post even though you messed up the color quotation. Or you can not reciprocate and continue to choose to not read my post, and post another hissy fit, believing I'm unfoundedly arrogant. But you don't know what was in my post unless you read it. You can't compare information you don't know.

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1. Don't patronize me.

2. Color quotation was from your post.

http://i318.photobucket.com/albums/m...psrqxumplz.png

3.You haven't seen a hissy fit, yet.

4. I'll pass

http://i318.photobucket.com/albums/m...psqj7ndc1y.gif

This thread made me think of this old thread:

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...hlight=empathy

hah, slacker has a new despotic avatar. <3 (<--creepy bolt of affection out of nowhere)

Wow I missed a lot of action :shock:
I guess I will share my POV on this even though I just read the first page < I am so lazy so I couldn't continue :shrug:

before I start here is a quote from the wikipedia:

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Empathy refers to the understanding and sharing of a specific emotional state with another person. Sympathy does not require the sharing of the same emotional state. Instead, sympathy is a concern for the well-being of another.

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from this I would say Fe is empathy and Fi is sympathy.
actually if we use this comparison I would be a not bad sympathetic person with zero empathy, since even though I may feel a concern for the well-being of another, I have never shared their emotional state.

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Originally Posted by Aylen

I can and do push my personal feelings aside when I know they will not be helpful to anyone involved. I can smile and laugh while crying inside but my personal feelings don't stop me from feeling exactly what another is feeling.

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I have seen people who are like that and to tell you the truth I find this very confusing and if I didn't know these people I would have said they are insincere but it seems they are sincere which confuse me even more. I can't really understand how can they do it.

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Originally Posted by Maritsa

You're not in my frame of reference. Ever and now never will be

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short and to the point, I like it XD