Differences between Sx/Sp and Sp/Sx instinct stackings

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I went back and forth between Sx/Sp and Sp/Sx for quite a while when I first found the instincts. From the descriptions I found, my lifestyle matched up more with Sp/Sx, but Sx/Sp sounded like the person I wanted to be. After befriending and working with many Sp/Sxs though the difference between our styles of interaction is very apparent.

The two types seem very similar on the surface, and even after getting to know an so-last distinguishing between both types can be problematic. In my experience with Sp/Sx friendships, some are much more obviously Sp-first than others, but others will have a more reactive engagement with me when we're talking, a certain internal spontaneity characteristic of Sx in general. But the Sx/Sp and Sp/Sx lifestyles are on opposite ends of the same spectrum. The closed-off aloof vibe of an Sx/Sp will gradually melt away entirely when fully engaged with an object of obsession, whereas an Sp/Sx will likely always retain some inner core of selfness that can't be shaken. The internal reactivity of Sx becomes more of a passing affect, a mask that can be put on and taken off seemingly at will.

I'll try to post more concrete examples when I'm more focused, everything feels muddy atm.

I've always thought of you as contra-flow. The sx is there but you vibe kind of thick-skinned and contented, and lack a certain naivety/idealism that I get from Syn-flow people.

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Originally Posted by dolphin

Pleeeease tell us or link the flow information, I've heard this mentioned multiple times but I don't know what you are talking about and I want to read it!!

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Scroll down

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...tual-Stackings

Is this the post you're talking about?

There's a slightly more 'aggressive' (read assertive, not hostile) vibe in the OP than I find in sp/sx. It's visible even in the context of other EIIs to be seen around. From the little I know of her, she doesn't strike me as grounded&calming, but as guarded. I think I stated my opinion already in a VI thread. I recall someone said she comes across as 'a feline-like creature' and that qualifier seemed spot-on to me. There's something less static in her than in sp/sx. It vibes like some controlled energy ...but it's there.

Overall she doesn't seem to use Sx 'creatively' ...in a showy fashion. Quite the opposite. And since she's such an obvious So last .... it just makes more sense that she's Sx first .... they are more prone to keep that instinct close to their core and more hidden (than both Sx/so and Sx second).

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Originally Posted by dolphin

Well, see here, you are being a bit too literal about what I mean. I am not making my assessments based solely on your "forum behavior" or posts, if anything that's sort of peripheral to what I mean. Its more about the actual energy you put out, sometimes in chat, your pictures, your mannerisms. What I meant is not literally "explosive forum behavior". It is that...sx/sp is for the most part a restrained stacking, because the sp is always pulling the sx back, mediating it and so forth. But a lack of sx interaction will eventually lead to some kind of release, or obsession, where instead of pulling back the sx energy the sx/sp person practically takes a bath in it. I was thinking of Galen's descriptions of one sx person meeting another and having a compulsive exchange of energy, building on one another endlessly. Have you seen that post? It might shed some light on what I'm trying to say. I want to write a bit more here about the differences between these two types as I'm pretty sure my bf is sp/sx. But that will come later when I have more time to write.

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:love:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVLguUS13_4

What's left to say with all that's come and gone
Words get in the way and anyway the devils got your tongue
And a storm brews inside and there's nowhere to hide
It's gonna blow your cover sky high
But if you let this thing go, it's gonna burn, it's gonna burn
You're gonna take the whole world with you when you go


Oh oh oh what you gonna do ?
When the storm takes over
Oh oh oh what you gonna do ?
When the storm takes over


So here you are, demons screaming in your head
You try to shut them out but they just get louder instead
And nothing you do can seem to break through
This darkness smothering you
When it takes hold, your heart turns cold
The very soul seeps out of you


Oh oh oh what you gonna do ?
When this storm, this storm takes over you
Can you hold this thing
Can you hold this thing

Till the clouds clear.

This song is probably a bit 4ish but what you said reminded me of it. :content:

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Originally Posted by Agarina

If this is what I think it is, then it's definitely something that happens to me.

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I still wonder if non-sx-firsts can relate to it or not. Haven't heard anything of the sort.

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Originally Posted by Starfall

I on the other hand am much slower to form bonds. I have to find a safe ground with a person and figure them out before I can safely say that I want to form a bond with them. Then once this is achieved, this person will forever be dear and close to me. It just takes time, I'm slower to commit to relationships. Also, I have a much more negative view of people in general. For instance, I HATE new people until I become better accustomed to them in my environment. I've noticed that sx/sp people aren't really like this, and seem to be a lot more accepting of the human condition in general because they so easily form bonds. People are a lot more interesting to them.

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IME Sx/Sps can seem very hot/cold depending on the social context. Larger groups of people, or at least people they don't like already, can cause them to tune out mentally and give an impression of being boring killjoys. In smaller settings with groups of trusted confidants they liven up much easier.

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Originally Posted by Agarina

What do you think about the syn-flow / contra-flow descriptions about being compelled towards/against people etc?

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I think syn/contra flow is a load of vague interpretational crap. If there is anything to the idea I haven't seen anything consistent about it in real people.

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Originally Posted by Galen

can seem very hot/cold depending on the social context. Larger groups of people, or at least people they don't like already, can cause them to tune out mentally and give an impression of being boring killjoys. In smaller settings with groups of trusted confidants they liven up much easier.

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I also relate to every word of this.

I'm introverted also.

I've recently been paying attention to instictual stackings, which I usually ignored.

After reading the different stackings descriptions and commenting them, I would say sx/sp is the option that fits better for me. I quite like this description in particular:

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Originally Posted by silke

Sx/Sp- muddy, lava-like, piercing

Energetic qualities associated with sx/sp - intensifying, escalating, rising, surging, enlivening, invigorating, accelerating, stimulating, energizing, vitalizing, reviving, animating, inspiriting

Why do sx/sp's seem saturated with intensity?
-sx/sp's gain stability by withholding strong sexual impulses sp ---> into ---> sx

Sx/Sp Writing Style: Intense, often a stab-in-the-chest sensation, leaving me in tears without knowing why. Fantastical but much more concentrated in a few inner images. Can be abstract, animating dead objects into their field of contemplation. Embodiment of another human, thing, or idea is common in their writings.

Picture a lightning bolt captured in a bottle. The energy is always there but it's contained in a glass jar and only breaks free once in a while. The sx/sp is boxed in energy, self-contained, cutting, and focused. Sx/sp types will often look angry even when they are not. There is a certain reality of emotion which they display that is due to their social obliviousness. Most sx's will be honest almost to a fault. Sx/sp want to choose their friends wisely. A "with me or against me" attitude reminiscent of 6 and 8s. The least inhibited of all stackings. Cares less of what others think of them. The most likely to get into physical altercations, and may even enjoy fighting. Healthy sx/sp's will display a playful selfishness.

...
etc.

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Although there are still certain things that make me doubt between sx/sp and "its mirror" sp/sx. sp/sx descriptions I have found are not so rounded and a bit more like an hodgepodge of different aspects, so I'm not sure if I'm really getting its essence. And of course, after you read this:

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Originally Posted by silke

sp/sx also has an inverted narcissism (perhaps distorted exhibitionism is more accurate). There's an impulse to open the raincoat and reveal cancerous lesions covering the torso and genitalia. Festering wounds with a stench. It sometimes seems to be a challenge issued around deep, deep bonding: This is me; How real are you willing to be? Psychic nudity/revelation that, in itself, threatens the sp/sx with self-destruction....or at least social self-destruction, which is part of the distilling process toward the one-to-one uber-bond. There's an element of all that with sx in general but sp/sx, in this mode, prefers it truly organically grotesque, leaving a stain and a scar that's hard to interpret.

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I understand this is intended to me metaphorical, a sort of "look at me, this is how I am, accept me or leave me alone", but my reaction after reading this is... wtf?

Let's see if I understand these keypoints about instinctual stackings correctly:

• The strongest stacking is supposed to to be the most deeply rooted in the psyche. Due to this, it's not so [externally] obvious as you could expect for it, as it's "too personal" so to speak. It belongs to the user and it's for the user, not for other people (directly). The second and last stacking are less rooted and therefore more openly exposed. As the last one is too weak, all thing equals the sencond one would be the "most visible" or superfically apparent. But once you're closer enough to a particular person and intimacy could be more openly shared, you will notice that the strongest impulses lives in another dimension of the person's psyche.
• A simple comparsion of this effect could be socionics leading versus creative function. Creative is weaker, but it's also the main way of interacting with the external world.

This "contradiction" will cause unexpected results. For example, an sp/so would be more social than assumed, [relatively easily] willing to engage in groupal activities and experiences. The main sp stacking could manifest in the form of an extremely reserved person, who has certain personal (mental) space so private it's very difficult (very high degree of confidence is required) for being shared, even the closest friends. This would the the "archetypal" stacking at first for strong introverts.

Whereas an sx/sp, which is so-last, will refuse to engage in most social/gropual activities, being a natural isolacionist. Technically the most isolacionist, because although his energy levels are higher than in the case of sp/sx, this "energy" is held back due to a "defensive" creative (more externally directed) dimension. It would mostly be addressed in a personal fashion: the object of desire (a person, a project, a lifegoal, etc), that once found, will receive all this energy in the form of intense discharge (focus). sp/sx should share his/her energy more easily and in a broader sense. Higher energy but more concentrated should give to sx/sp an higher contrast than sp/sx in relation to personal distance. For outsiders, a true introvert, but once a close bond is formed, the person "explodes" with an energy level that can catch by surprise his more social friends.

Another contrast would be a potential higher level of frustration in sx/sp than sp/sx. The "I want what I want" nature of sx-first makes the user unsatisfied with less than this, not easily accepting compromises or alternatives of any kind for the object of desire. More internal pain, suffering, due to the higher difficulty for fullfilling the critical needs of his psyche.

What I do not clearly understand is why an sp/sx would react in the fashion described by the quoted comment (the "distorted exhibitionism"). They're supposed to be less isolationists than sx/sp, as the "external function" is not "defensive". But simultaneously, they should be by default more reserved than sx/sp, as they're sp-first. Sx/sp has the contrast of being an isolacionist who wants to meld with the object of desire, whereas an sp/sx would keep an higher barrier between himself an such object. It seems an sx/sp should share more easily his essence once opening up, and this include the dark aspects of the soul.

This being said, I find the imageniery showed in the sp/sx thread somehow a bit dirturbing and quite less appealing than in the case of sx/sp thread. And by the way, they have a sort of strong Ni-ish aura (more in a beta fashion than gamma one methinks).

Regarding how different stackings interact with each other, the "reverse stacking" is supposed to be "the conflictor" whereas the "dual" would be simultaneously the "identical" (same stacking). If this is correct and the people referred in the Pinterest link contained in the first quote are accurately typed, then this is another clue for picking sx/sp in my case. They have an extremely similar facial expression when compared to my own. I find the so/sp examples particularly disgusting, repulsive, more than so/sx. Nicole Kidman seems hollow, substanceless (regardless it's quite possible she's LII), Wes Bentley will eat your children, Blavatsky seems what she was, a cult leader, and that woman Fiona Apple... I do not know even how to describe the repulsion I feel looking at her pictures.

Despite of this, I suspect the combo of two sp/sx could be more troublesome than it seems. Not due to "natural repusion" (this is not the case), but because the natural intensity could magnify potential conflicts.

Considering the "Ni resemblance" that sp/sx imagery has, I wonder how it could be perceived by sx/sp from different sociotypes and enneatypes. For example, is it possible that a LII (4D Ni) sx/sp will "tolerate/digest" sp/sx essence more easily than an ILE sx/sp (Ni ignoring)?

There was another thread, not long ago, about this too and I am trying to find it. I am a bit repulsed by some of the stuff posted in the sp/sx thread. It all seems so "dirty" in contrast but I do not consider the sp/sx in my life as "dirty". They are pretty stable influences on me and, in general, I do not find them or their interests repulsive.

I am not sure if I would use the sp/sx quoted portion as reference material when trying to decide between the two.

How did Marilyn Monroe get typed so/sp on that pinterest link??? That seems completely off to type her sx last.

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Originally Posted by MensSuperMateriam

• The strongest stacking is supposed to to be the most deeply rooted in the psyche. Due to this, it's not so [externally] obvious as you could expect for it, as it's "too personal" so to speak. It belongs to the user and it's for the user, not for other people (directly). The second and last stacking are less rooted and therefore more openly exposed. As the last one is too weak, all thing equals the sencond one would be the "most visible" or superfically apparent. But once you're closer enough to a particular person and intimacy could be more openly shared, you will notice that the strongest impulses lives in another dimension of the person's psyche.

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IME the first instinct isn't really too 'personal' to be overtly expressed, as much as it simply operates the most actively without the person realizing it. It's more an unconscious way of life that rarely if ever gets challenged by the individual. You know the old joke about the one fish saying "nice water today," and the other fish responding "wtf is water?" Yeah, that.

The second instinct operates in a much more psychologically tangible way. Each instinct stack consciously creates specific goals based on the second instinct more than the primary, so they'll more actively work towards those desires with the primary instinct acting as subtext and a deeper modus operandi.

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Originally Posted by MensSuperMateriam

• A simple comparsion of this effect could be socionics leading versus creative function. Creative is weaker, but it's also the main way of interacting with the external world.

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I'd probably say the second instinct is less neurotic than the first, not necessarily weaker.

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Originally Posted by MensSuperMateriam

This "contradiction" will cause unexpected results. For example, an sp/so would be more social than assumed, [relatively easily] willing to engage in groupal activities and experiences. The main sp stacking could manifest in the form of an extremely reserved person, who has certain personal (mental) space so private it's very difficult (very high degree of confidence is required) for being shared, even the closest friends. This would the the "archetypal" stacking at first for strong introverts.

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I've noticed this in sp/sos too, especially the IXXx sp/sos I know. They come off as initially pretty flat and unreactive, but once you get them around friends they come to life.

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Originally Posted by MensSuperMateriam

Whereas an sx/sp, which is so-last, will refuse to engage in most social/gropual activities, being a natural isolacionist.

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This is a bit overblown IMO. The last instinct isn't usually an active point of contention for any stacking, it's just prioritized the least mentally. Sx/Sps don't actively reject the social aspects of the human condition as much as they just forget about it, or are much more willing to let that side of life run dry for longer. In a way the last instinct is actually the least neurotic, since the goals of that instinct are the least focused on of the bunch.

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Originally Posted by MensSuperMateriam

Another contrast would be a potential higher level of frustration in sx/sp than sp/sx. The "I want what I want" nature of sx-first makes the user unsatisfied with less than this, not easily accepting compromises or alternatives of any kind for the object of desire. More internal pain, suffering, due to the higher difficulty for fullfilling the critical needs of his psyche.

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Again this sounds pretty melodramatic. I don't think any instinct can be defined by the level of emotional torment they subject themselves to.

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Originally Posted by MensSuperMateriam

What I do not clearly understand is why an sp/sx would react in the fashion described by the quoted comment (the "distorted exhibitionism"). They're supposed to be less isolationists than sx/sp, as the "external function" is not "defensive". But simultaneously, they should be by default more reserved than sx/sp, as they're sp-first. Sx/sp has the contrast of being an isolacionist who wants to meld with the object of desire, whereas an sp/sx would keep an higher barrier between himself an such object. It seems an sx/sp should share more easily his essence once opening up, and this include the dark aspects of the soul.

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IME the psychological exhibitionism that sp/sxs perform is pretty flash-in-the-pan. The secondary instinct shows itself on the surface for only a select portion of the time, a much more consciously displayed and pursued mode of being than the primary.

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Originally Posted by MensSuperMateriam

This being said, I find the imageniery showed in the sp/sx thread somehow a bit dirturbing and quite less appealing than in the case of sx/sp thread. And by the way, they have a sort of strong Ni-ish aura (more in a beta fashion than gamma one methinks).

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To be fair a lot of that imagery in the sp/sx thread was highly influenced by lungs' visual aesthetic, and I think a lot of people picked up on that and ran with it.

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Originally Posted by MensSuperMateriam

Regarding how different stackings interact with each other, the "reverse stacking" is supposed to be "the conflictor" whereas the "dual" would be simultaneously the "identical" (same stacking). If this is correct and the people referred in the Pinterest link contained in the first quote are accurately typed, then this is another clue for picking sx/sp in my case. They have an extremely similar facial expression when compared to my own.

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Pics pls

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Originally Posted by MensSuperMateriam

Despite of this, I suspect the combo of two sp/sx could be more troublesome than it seems. Not due to "natural repusion" (this is not the case), but because the natural intensity could magnify potential conflicts.

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Nah, sp/sxs usually have the strongest respect for each other's personal space (unless they hate each other I guess)

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Originally Posted by MensSuperMateriam

Considering the "Ni resemblance" that sp/sx imagery has, I wonder how it could be perceived by sx/sp from different sociotypes and enneatypes. For example, is it possible that a LII (4D Ni) sx/sp will "tolerate/digest" sp/sx essence more easily than an ILE sx/sp (Ni ignoring)?

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See my earlier response re: the sp/sx thread.

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Originally Posted by Aylen

It all seems so "dirty" in contrast but I do not consider the sp/sx in my life as "dirty". They are pretty stable influences on me and, in general, I do not find them or their interests repulsive.

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Well the imaginery presented in the sp/sx thread seems a bit "weird", but I was not considering them "respulsive" in the sense of causing discomfort onto me (this seems to be the case of sosp if most of them are accurately typed in the Pinterest link).

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I am not sure if I would use the sp/sx quoted portion as reference material when trying to decide between the two.

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Agree. I have compated a lot of their characteristics not just this "exhibitionism" alone. I would say that sx/sp seems to fit quite better, but I'm not completely sure.

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How did Marilyn Monroe get typed so/sp on that pinterest link??? That seems completely off to type her sx last.

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True, sounds a bit odd.

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Originally Posted by Aylen

There was another thread, not long ago, about this too and I am trying to find it. I am a bit repulsed by some of the stuff posted in the sp/sx thread. It all seems so "dirty" in contrast but I do not consider the sp/sx in my life as "dirty". They are pretty stable influences on me and, in general, I do not find them or their interests repulsive.

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do you mean all the dismemberment images? dismemberment isn't really my thing either, and i currently self-type sp/sx.

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Originally Posted by Galen

IME the first instinct isn't really too 'personal' to be overtly expressed, as much as it simply operates the most actively without the person realizing it. It's more an unconscious way of life that rarely if ever gets challenged by the individual. You know the old joke about the one fish saying "nice water today," and the other fish responding "wtf is water?" Yeah, that.

The second instinct operates in a much more psychologically tangible way. Each instinct stack consciously creates specific goals based on the second instinct more than the primary, so they'll more actively work towards those desires with the primary instinct acting as subtext and a deeper modus operandi.

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I see. More unconscious then. I suspect that if this is the case, the user would be more "vulnerable" to the main stacking dimension and its needs. Less consciously aware of it >> less consciously aware of how to properly satify its needs >> a sort of hunger that you do not understand where it comes from, you only feel it. A "pure instinct" or "id" in the Freudian sense, versus the second stacking which would be a more "sublimated/conscious" instinct or "ego".

The fish... :lol:

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I'd probably say the second instinct is less neurotic than the first, not necessarily weaker.

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If by neurotic you mean "it never switches off" then this points to sx-first in my case.

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This is a bit overblown IMO. The last instinct isn't usually an active point of contention for any stacking, it's just prioritized the least mentally. Sx/Sps don't actively reject the social aspects of the human condition as much as they just forget about it, or are much more willing to let that side of life run dry for longer. In a way the last instinct is actually the least neurotic, since the goals of that instinct are the least focused on of the bunch.

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I see. I was using more or less the correlation first-second-last to "leading-creative-polr" (as an analogy, I did not mean that they correspond in such way to Socionics type as I know they refer to a different dimension) . Maybe the last one would work better as a sort of "DS" then...

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Again this sounds pretty melodramatic. I don't think any instinct can be defined by the level of emotional torment they subject themselves to.

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I guess so. Generally speaking my original words probably do not work, but I said that considering the sx/sp and sxp/sx contrast; sx/sp is aparently described in such fashion.

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IME the psychological exhibitionism that sp/sxs perform is pretty flash-in-the-pan. The secondary instinct shows itself on the surface for only a select portion of the time, a much more consciously displayed and pursued mode of being than the primary.

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That seems to be the key, makes sense.

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To be fair a lot of that imagery in the sp/sx thread was highly influenced by lungs' visual aesthetic, and I think a lot of people picked up on that and ran with it.

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The first thing that came to my mind after seeing it was the youtuber Cyriak. His videos are somehow "insane" although entertaining. If you do not know him, take a look:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FavUpD_IjVY

This is one is quite mild considering many of his work.

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Pics pls

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I'm not in the mood of posting pics of me right now (maybe by PM). But if you agree that "Nikolai Levchenko" (top left in the Pinterest link) and "Vasili the INTJ" (top right) are good representatives of sx/sp facial expression, mine is quite similar (particularly compared with Vasili, although I tend to look even angrier). I had several pictures posted in my type-me thread; I have deleted them but maybe you remeber how my face looks like.

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Nah, sp/sxs usually have the strongest respect for each other's personal space (unless they hate each other I guess)

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You probably meant "sx/sp". And good point. If a strong conflict arises...



[EDIT]
No, the last stacking should still work a bit closer to "PoLR" than "DS". If not, the "reverse stacking is the least compatible" would not make sense. Even if this does not imply a total rejection of this dimension.

sp/sx's are more naturally in their own world, and their insularity is compensated for by a certain degree of receptivity, though this can come and go depending on mood, and the latter can carry a certain level of... existential detachment, which syn-flow types will usually find discordant. sx/sp otoh is a little more internally conflicted, like they can never fully decide whether to stay within their boundaries or pursue an object of interest. an sp/sx would likely find an sx/sp to be a bit 'much' at times, maybe somewhat too emotionally demanding, while an sx/sp would find an sp/sx to be somewhat reassuring, but not quite 'alive' enough.

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Originally Posted by MensSuperMateriam

The first thing that came to my mind after seeing it was the youtuber Cyriak. His videos are somehow "insane" although entertaining. If you do not know him, take a look:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FavUpD_IjVY

This is one is quite mild considering many of his work.

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I'm well-versed in the eye fuckery of Cyriak. From what little I've seen of his actual person, I would guess so/sp for him.

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Originally Posted by MensSuperMateriam

I'm not in the mood of posting pics of me right now (maybe by PM). But if you agree that "Nikolai Levchenko" (top left in the Pinterest link) and "Vasili the INTJ" (top right) are good representatives of sx/sp facial expression, mine is quite similar (particularly compared with Vasili, although I tend to look even angrier). I had several pictures posted in my type-me thread; I have deleted them but maybe you remeber how my face looks like.

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Talk is cheap, give me your face.

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Originally Posted by MensSuperMateriam

No, the last stacking should still work a bit closer to "PoLR" than "DS". If not, the "reverse stacking is the least compatible" would not make sense. Even if this does not imply a total rejection of this dimension.

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It's probably easier to think of the instinct as a sequence of internal priorities, not a rigid structure where each instinct in the order serves some esoteric function.

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Originally Posted by inumbra

do you mean all the dismemberment images? dismemberment isn't really my thing either, and i currently self-type sp/sx.

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Yeah some things just really creep me out. Mostly things like bugs, especially worms and any kind of rotting/decay. I want to burn that stuff up and purify it. :shifty:

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Originally Posted by Galen

I'm well-versed in the eye fuckery of Cyriak. From what little I've seen of his actual person, I would guess so/sp for him.

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Well I have not seen any interview of him or any other kind of personal information, so I'm not assuring an actual type. I just said the imaginery of his work somehow resembles what has been posted in the sp/sx thread. Which does not imply he has to belong to it, of course.

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Talk is cheap, give me your face.

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Very well. For a brief amount of time, I'll make some pictures available. [DELETED]

The most recent ("happy face") is an exception to the rule as I have serious troubles similing to the camera. Included for contrast.

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It's probably easier to think of the instinct as a sequence of internal priorities, not a rigid structure where each instinct in the order serves some esoteric function.

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Imo you're misinterpreting my words here, as I specifically used quotation marks for a reason. The "socionics analogy" was intended to be just that, an analogy for easily describing this phenomenon with the known nomenclature used for another one. I'm not trying to build a sort of "complex framework" for instincts now (in case you're thinking this), as I see them as fluid and flexible as you probably do.

But even if they are just a priority, this could be caused by several reasons. It seems you think it's a simple as "you ignore more/pay less attention" to the last one, it is less important [needed and/or liked]. But if it's less liked this also means it's more disliked, hence my point.

I guess multiple options are possible here. Someone who is less polarized and has reasonable levels of all of its intincts would be fit well in your description. For a more polarized user, the last instint could start becoming closer to this sort of "pseudo-PoLR".

But there's a fact (apparently, according to the descriptions I've read to this moment): reverse stackings are the least compatible. You have a potential alternative case, and this would be reverse as the most compatible. Things seem to work according to the first situation, not the second. So this have to mean something. It seems there is an higher rejection for the last slacking than just "it's not as good as the others". And simultaneously, an higher need and acceptation for the dominant one.

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Originally Posted by MensSuperMateriam

Very well. For a brief amount of time, I'll make some pictures available. Dropbox link.

The most recent ("happy face") is an exception to the rule as I have serious troubles similing to the camera. Included for contrast.

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Thank you for your bravery. So far I'm seeing So >>> Sx, So/Sp sticks out as a first impression.

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Originally Posted by MensSuperMateriam

Imo you're misinterpreting my words here, as I specifically used quotation marks for a reason. The "socionics analogy" was intended to be just that, an analogy for easily describing this phenomenon with the known nomenclature used for another one. I'm not trying to build a sort of "complex framework" for instincts now (in case you're thinking this), as I see them as fluid and flexible as you probably do.

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In this case then sure, the the last instinct is probably closer to socionics PoLR than DS.

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Originally Posted by MensSuperMateriam

But even if they are just a priority, this could be caused by several reasons. It seems you think it's a simple as "you ignore more/pay less attention" to the last one, it is less important [needed and/or liked]. But if it's less liked this also means it's more disliked, hence my point.

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I guess both of these qualities are literally equivalent to each other, but "dislike more" implies an active attempt at rejecting the perceived stimulus. "Like less" could just as easily be a neutral statement.

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Originally Posted by MensSuperMateriam

I guess multiple options are possible here. Someone who is less polarized and has reasonable levels of all of its intincts would be fit well in your description. For a more polarized user, the last instint could start becoming closer to this sort of "pseudo-PoLR".

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A lot of it depends on individual levels of emotional well-being I guess. If you've got an highly sheltered and misanthropic sp/sx, they're gonna seem more virulently anti-So than one who's more well-adjusted.

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Originally Posted by MensSuperMateriam

But there's a fact (apparently, according to the descriptions I've read to this moment): reverse stackings are the least compatible. You have a potential alternative case, and this would be reverse as the most compatible. Things seem to work according to the first situation, not the second. So this have to mean something. It seems there is an higher rejection for the last slacking than just "it's not as good as the others". And simultaneously, an higher need and acceptation for the dominant one.

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Inverse stackings IME have the toughest time finding common ground with each other, so yeah the former fits much better than the latter.

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Originally Posted by Galen

Thank you for your bravery. So far I'm seeing So >>> Sx, So/Sp sticks out as a first impression.

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It it just an impression you get from the pictures? (understanding as such a subjective "sensation" and therefore not suitable for analysis) Or there are "tangible" quialities in those pictures we can discuss?

I guess nothing is impossible, but so-first would contradict everything I've observed about myself during my whole life... For example, I hate groups of people, the bigger the group the more I refuse engaging in this "collective".

Before you will point this is a typical introverted behavior (I concur) take into consideration that this is true even when I use comparable introverts as a contrast. They are... well introverts so they behave accordingly. But they still can, with certain difficulty and bit of external help, engage in collective forms of behavior. I just feel extremely uncomfortable with this, and tend to "angrily" refuse doing this. I's not just shyness it's... how to say. I feel (subjective perception here) like groupal behavior implies diluting myself in a bigger entity whose nature has nothing to with me. The collective is like "one with the strength of many", you cannot negotiate with it, you cannot reason with it; you're supposed to submit to it and integrate in it, and this feels like "killing your self, your essence, your individuality" in the process. You stop being you and start becoming just another disposable element of this "thing". This refusal extends beyond just simple groupal activities. I dislike engaging in typical forms of cultural expressions from my own country. Not that I try to "destroy" this culture of see it inherently worse (which is not the case), I just dislike folklore/customs/traditions and these kind of things in general. Everytime I express this disliking (as a personal opinion, without being disrespectful with those people who actually want to engage in societal forms of expression) and any other denizen says "but you're Spanish, it's your culture" I feel the impulse to punch his/her face repeatedly...

In one-to-one interaction [or small groups] it's much more an relationship between peers, between equals. You're not simply expected to conform, to intergrate. You choose to be in it, and you do it freely, according to your nature, contributing as you are without compromising your core self, your essence. I can behave quite energetically in these cases, and many times I end "steamrolling" my friends when conversating, for example.

The transition between the two modes is quite more abrupt in my case than in those clearcut LIIs and ILIs I know. This is consistent with sx>so. I remember a conflict I had here with another LII and as a sort of "insult" described my posts as "passionate" :lol: (which is not untrue, just pointing out how I am perceived even by fellow introverts).

This is just one example, but there are many other behavoral aspects that fits in what I've read about sx/sp, and I cannot pinpoint anything that could suggest so/sp. Not saying that I necessarily have to be sx/sp, but so-first... I see this quite unlikely. At least we agree about sp-second (and therefore my most "visible" trait).

[EDIT]
I'm curious. How would you tipe Fiona Apple (found in so/sp Pinterest gallery)? Google images link. I feel a particularly high repulsion looking at her pictures.

When typing yourself how do you tell the two apart?

Personally it was a no brainer for me, typing myself as self preservational first. The self preservational instinct is something, that I feel very close to. Idk for you, just do whatever you want. Idk maybe you can read these break down of types, like for example with my enneatype: sp 1 is different than sx 1 or so 1.

I'm also borderline between these stackings. I'm not at all concerned with "saving for a rainy day" which seems to be the theme of sp, but I wouldn't say that my life is loose and chaotic either. So yeah, I would also appreciate it if someone can elaborate the differences between these stackings.

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Originally Posted by LSI Stripper

When typing yourself how do you tell the two apart?

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You are between 8 sp/sx and 8 sx/sp specifically?

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Originally Posted by Myst

You are between 8 sp/sx and 8 sx/sp specifically?

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Yes

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Originally Posted by LSI Stripper

Yes

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How do you relate to each?

I did have the same problem :p

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Originally Posted by Myst

How do you relate to each?

I did have the same problem :p

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Good question! I would say I'm SP first, because I have a brick wall around me, no one can gauge my feelings, but behind the wall is a burning furnace of emotion and agony lmao. But, other people on the net are like "oh you're sx/sp and very feisty for an LSI you must be ESI sx/sp..." It's like I'm trapped in a hell only I know about and other people are just getting a stoic chick with a blank face. I highly value taking care or material matters like shopping, saving money, organizing my stuff, diet & exercise, but sometimes I give up on all those things because of my "feelings" and I'll do nothing but binge on food and netflix and depressing music. I'm not sure if that answered your question at all lol

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Originally Posted by LSI Pole Ninja

Good question! I would say I'm SP first, because I have a brick wall around me, no one can gauge my feelings, but behind the wall is a burning furnace of emotion and agony lmao. But, other people on the net are like "oh you're sx/sp and very feisty for an LSI you must be ESI sx/sp..." It's like I'm trapped in a hell only I know about and other people are just getting a stoic chick with a blank face. I highly value taking care or material matters like shopping, saving money, organizing my stuff, diet & exercise, but sometimes I give up on all those things because of my "feelings" and I'll do nothing but binge on food and netflix and depressing music. I'm not sure if that answered your question at all lol

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You don't come off as ESI to me and btw that about you being feisty is very shallow "reasoning" to type you as that. Anything else that you see as sx in yourself?

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[...] "saving for a rainy day" which seems to be the theme of sp [...]

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This made me think, what do I personally connect with the sp-instinct. What do I actually see as sp themes. Yeah ‚ saving for a rainy day‘. I was once reading this novel ‚The Road‘ by Cormac McCarthy. It‘s basically father and son trying to get along under the most difficult circumstances. ‚Saving for rainy day‘ is the feeling for me of ‚Do you have enough resources, do you have enough left, that you can draw from, when it comes hard on hard‘ (~ concern about resources, having enough/fear of scarcity). Resources can be money, but it can also be something different, something inside. There was this part, where they walk on and on in the book and the father has this memory, about his wife and it basically goes like this:

“From daydreams on the road there was no waking. He plodded on. He could remember everything of her save her scent. Seated in a theatre with her beside him leaning forward listening to the music. Gold scrollwork and sconces and the tall columnar folds of the drapes at either side of the stage. She held his hand in her lap and he could feel the tops of her stockings through the thin stuff of her summer dress. Freeze this frame. Now call down your dark and your cold and be damned.”

Now call down your dark and cold and be damned. I thought that was a cool line (kind of encompasses the personality gets energy part for me).

~ instincts are "the intelligence of life" -- intelligence of billions of years of evolution
~ personality is an activity; instincts are where the personality gets energy for that activity
~ ego issues feel like life and death because the activity of the ego is "plugged into" the instincts
~ instinctual matters feel non-negotiable / these are where the ego puts its foot down. ***

There was this film. I stumbled upon it, because it was mentioned in one book. Seven Beauties. Like there is this guy in concentration camp and there is this concentration camp guard. He seduces her and sleeps with her, in order to survive. I was really shocked, impacted by that (like everytime with things like that, it stirs sth. in me, my own sp-angst?). Like it’s horrible and terrifying, but it’s like how it just can be (history has shown that), that humans are just animals trying to survive and I don’t feel like I’m getting super weird here. I mean you just need to look at the streets, just need to watch the news. Self preservational instinct (‚intelligence of life‘ – intelligence of billions of years of evolution).

Infractions in the sp area are just something that go to the core for me (issues feel like life and death, non negotionable). Like when people don‘t have enough food. Like when mothers cannot feed their children and they are basically holding a skeleton of a human in their arms and idk... Also like when people don’t have a home. I mean sleeping on the streets in winter and having to be on watch, not to be beaten up or something else is going to be done to you. For me it’s like the terrifying truth. I mean there are examples over examples from everything that goes on in the world. That’s why for me when you have like food, when you are safe, when you have a cool home. That’s like awesome.

More here: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/showthread.php/41782-Instinct-workshop-notes-sp-so-sx***

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Originally Posted by LSI Pole Ninja

I highly value taking care or material matters like shopping, saving money, organizing my stuff, diet & exercise, but sometimes I give up on all those things because of my "feelings" and I'll do nothing but binge on food and netflix and depressing music.

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sp on both counts. imo.

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Originally Posted by Myst

You don't come off as ESI to me and btw that about you being feisty is very shallow "reasoning" to type you as that. Anything else that you see as sx in yourself?

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Agreed. Let's see, SX because I'm introverted with an SO blindspot, I'm very intense and I have a weakness for soulmates and earth shattering sex and I go crazy when I fail a relationship. I listen to intense emotional rock & grunge music and relate to it, I write really intense music that only wrist cutters would like lol.

@Nymeria I checked out that link you posted and I found it very informative. After reading more I think the possibility me being Sx-last might not be entirely out of the questions. I do often get the feeling like I'm stuck in rut is described in having Sp-first. Perhaps my sp manifest more as me being a homebody, which I very much am. It also sounds like being soc-last is more about being overly pragmatic and not valuing fun for the sake of having fun rather then not hanging with people on a regular basis. (which is the result of my sp wanting to stay at home)

Seems like this instinct crap is being overcomplicated again.

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Originally Posted by Galen

I think syn/contra flow is a load of vague interpretational crap. If there is anything to the idea I haven't seen anything consistent about it in real people.

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maybe it is related to some positivist/negativist dichotomy. anyhow how is this syn contra thingy related to stackings?

Sp/Sx is like, join my world, I let you in. Sx/Sp is the complete opposite, they create the world or invade the other one's: "Building a new nest, just the two of us".

hoi willekeurig, hoe gaat ie ermee.

Difference would be most clear by just looking at the main instinct.
Sx is focussed on others, Sp is focussed on self.
Sx types : here the fuck i am in your face dude. even when they are shy, they tend to gravitate towards this. Let's burn something and have a drink to 4 oclock in the morning.
Sp types : my shoe hurts, i don't go out with you guys, i have to sleep at 10 oclock, my belly hurts, i only like half of the food they served, i leave the rest uneaten.

@Tigerfadder I'm sure it is, but no one says that in general for some reason.

Your first instinct is your religion. Your 2nd is USUALLY a source of pleasure and fun, but it gets ruined when it becomes too serious.

We give up anything for our religion, so if Im having troubles with my partner i would sacrifice my security and money. I would be okay with living on the streets as long as I have you by my side. Literally. SX first gets obsessed with their partners and its almost like you're subconsciously forcing the passion and sparks to happen. Sp first moves slow (from an sx firsts POV), or at least their emotions do.

@Ghost Are you sure you're synflow though? Also, my religion is my religion, not partners, society, or self-preservation. I'm also not entirely sure Sx is about partners and you just sound sort of codependent to me. Based on your definitions of the stackings, Sp/So ironically literally sounds like the most desirable one, because you just care about yourself first and then engage with society when it suits you (but don't depend on the approval of others) and then finally comes partners (who aren't as important as the wider world). But that's not how I see the stackings defined literally anywhere else, and anyways, the way you conceptualize them makes it sound like Sp/So is the stacking for revolutionaries when it tends to be considered the boring one.

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Originally Posted by Verbrannte

@Ghost Are you sure you're synflow though? Also, my religion is my religion, not partners, society, or self-preservation. I'm also not entirely sure Sx is about partners and you just sound sort of codependent to me. Based on your definitions of the stackings, Sp/So ironically literally sounds like the most desirable one, because you just care about yourself first and then engage with society when it suits you (but don't depend on the approval of others) and then finally comes partners (who aren't as important as the wider world). But that's not how I see the stackings defined literally anywhere else, and anyways, the way you conceptualize them makes it sound like Sp/So is the stacking for revolutionaries when it tends to be considered the boring one.

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Im drawn towards people and want to be involved with people so yes.
"Religion" is a metaphor for what matters the absolute most to you and what you life for.
SX is about fiery passion :) when it is first you feel like half a person so you need another person to merge with (with fiery passion). So yes sx firsts are codependent. I usually imagine the picture of John Lennon and Yoko Ono together where theyre lying together as sx (John). Cant look it up rn cause im on my phone.
- That doesnt mean other stackings cant be codependent though.
Why do you find it "ironic" that sp/so is the most desirable to you?
I dont know if I find any of the stackings "ideal". Its like asking whether brown or blonde hair is better. Ive been envious of sp/sx girls because they are like cats, mysterious, detached. I think thats really attractive. My envy is sx + 4 based in that im only envious because I think theyre more attractive than me though.

@Ghost I don't think Sp/So is the most desirable from most descriptions though, just from yours, because the way you describe it makes it sound like some sort of social revolutionary stacking, and I find that to sound appealing (it tends to be described as the the exact opposite BTW). Also, being codependent is not healthy FYI.

@Verbrannte when did i describe it as "social revolutionary"? And if you think that is desirable then you are probably not soc last.

Thats why most sx firsts tend to be 'unhealthy'.
This is what sx firsts deep down believe they need to survive and its not as easy as saying its not unhealthy etc. Its the same as trying to convince an sp first that money and security is not what matters the most. Keep in mind sp/so may say 'family matters most' and yes family probably matters a lot to them but take away their financial security, belongings and they will be horribly stressed out and neglect other things until they get it under control again. Ive dated an sp first who was poor and he was so worried about it constantly and made him depressed and i felt bad for him but couldnt fully understand how bad his anxiety was about this because im not sp first.

@Ghost So first is supposed to want social approval at any cost though, and since I don't care about that, I can't be So first. Sx first is basically dependent personality disorder from this description, and since I am fine going without any sort of close partner at all, I also cannot be Sx first. Sp first is about wanting comfort and survival, and since I don't care about that either, I also cannot be Sp first. Therefore, I must be some sort of demigod-like being who has no instincts, and I should probably abandon trying to type myself in any typology system at all since beings like that probably don't have human personality types.

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Originally Posted by Verbrannte

@Ghost So first is supposed to want social approval at any cost though, and since I don't care about that, I can't be So first. Sx first is basically dependent personality disorder from this description, and since I am fine going without any sort of close partner at all, I also cannot be Sx first. Sp first is about wanting comfort and survival, and since I don't care about that either, I also cannot be Sp first. Therefore, I must be some sort of demigod-like being who has no instincts, and I should probably abandon trying to type myself in any typology system at all since beings like that probably don't have human personality types.

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You wont notice it until something is threatening it, so probably sp first if youve lived comfortable financially

@Ghost Wow, I pick a username referring to a nearly-incomprehensible weird liebestod poem and post to you as I listen to music from dramatic operas (vs. comic) because I'm Sp-first! It all makes sense now! Thank you very much!

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Originally Posted by Verbrannte

@Ghost Wow, I pick a username referring to a nearly-incomprehensible weird liebestod poem and post to you as I listen to music from dramatic operas (vs. comic) because I'm Sp-first! It all makes sense now! Thank you very much!

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If youre implying an sp first cant do that for some reason you are wrong, uh

@Ghost Well, to be fair, liebestod is probably not a word you'd be familiar with unless you have both 4 and 5 in your tritype, and that is really the main thing here.

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Originally Posted by Verbrannte

@Ghost Well, to be fair, liebestod is probably not a word you'd be familiar with unless you have both 4 and 5 in your tritype, and that is really the main thing here.

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First of all can you stop thinking that everyone here speak german. And what does this have to do with instincts again?

@Ghost Liebestod is an English word, but sort of a specialist loanword. And what it has to do with instincts... well, it literally translates as "love-death" so you decide ;)

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Originally Posted by Verbrannte

@Ghost Liebestod is an English word, but sort of a specialist loanword. And what it has to do with instincts... well, it literally translates as "love-death" so you decide ;)

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You are probably the most confusing person on this forum

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Originally Posted by Ghost

You are probably the most confusing person on this forum

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Thank you very much :squeeze:

:8*

Attachment 8879

Here's what I meant. I think it conveys what sx is like. John Lennon is sx/so, he has the "OMG" about his partner.
I would guess Yoko Ono is sp/sx from her pictures and also this picture. See how detached she is? But still intriguing because there is sx under there somewhere, but it's being contained by the sp shell. :love:
I believe sx firsts don't tend to go for other sx firsts, because the not having them completely is what keeps the fire burning.

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Originally Posted by Ghost

Attachment 8879

Here's what I meant. I think it conveys what sx is like. John Lennon is sx/so, he has the "OMG" about his partner.
I would guess Yoko Ono is sp/sx from her pictures and also this picture. See how detached she is? But still intriguing because there is sx under there somewhere, but it's being contained by the sp shell. :love:

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Originally Posted by vBulletin Message

Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator

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Sx is not just about partners from what I've read. It's a hard thing to really describe concretely though, probably because it's not a concrete thing.

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Originally Posted by Ghost

Here's what I meant. I think it conveys what sx is like. John Lennon is sx/so, he has the "OMG" about his partner.
I would guess Yoko Ono is sp/sx from her pictures and also this picture. See how detached she is? But still intriguing because there is sx under there somewhere, but it's being contained by the sp shell.

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yoko ono and john lennon always appeared to me as an sx/sp and sp/so couple ... this is soo self-pres: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/_ZZVVAO4it4/maxresdefault.jpg

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Originally Posted by Verbrannte

Sx is not just about partners from what I've read. It's a hard thing to really describe concretely though, probably because it's not a concrete thing.

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Agreed. Its about a fire inside you. Its about not backing up but craving confrontation. Its about being real and not fake even if it is at your disadvantage. Its about passion and taking risks. Its about doing nothing the whole week but binge drinking in sat evening. Its about going first when the rest are scared. Its about being inspirational because you pull shit that others only dream about. Its about being bored all the time except when shit start your blood starts flowing. So whats with the partner, well you like making an impression on him, seeing the other person want you gives a kick. You know how to push the buttons. You are focussed on his buttons not your own. Thats sx to me.

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Originally Posted by Jarno

Agreed. Its about a fire inside you. Its about not backing up but craving confrontation. Its about being real and not fake even if it is at your disadvantage. Its about passion and taking risks. Its about doing nothing the whole week but binge drinking in sat evening. Its about going first when the rest are scared. Its about being inspirational because you pull shit that others only dream about. Its about being bored all the time except when shit start your blood starts flowing. So whats with the partner, well you like making an impression on him, seeing the other person want you gives a kick. You know how to push the buttons. You are focussed on his buttons not your own. Thats sx to me.

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Well, that's a bit self-praising and it also depends on the Enneagram typing besides that (this sounds really, really 8w7 Sx, probably like 8w7 874 Sx/So to be specific), but it seems generally pretty accurate compared to Ghost's.

@Verbrannte
It is mainly about partners but also attraction/repulsion to things which leads to you conveying your own personal style in an overt way in order to attract possible partners which means it all goes back to sexual attraction and partners again... So sx is attraction, passion, partners, all that.

Sx last tend to not identify what they like as "them", or not really knowing what they like vs "I LOVE/HATE this" or "this is ME".

@Jarno if that is sx, where is the sexual in that?
@Lim why is it "so self-pres"? cause theyre touching? lol

@Ghost Then I can't be Sx last, since I'm super opinionated on everything and that tends to be the thing that gets me into fights the most. And if I'm also not So last... No Sp first for me :p

Also, he said it's about passion, that sounds vaguely sexual to me to say the least, even if he's not super relationship-focused due to 8 lead being one of the "splitting off" types or whatever. For being that focused on relationships, I would almost place you as a 2 or something over 4, and as I said, contraflow vs. synflow for being on a socionics forum with "socionics doesn't exist" in your signature rather than finding an enneagram forum, which, if you're So-last, would make you Sp/Sx. Also, the whole "when you're drowning" thing is suspiciously self-pres since you're trying to not drown rather than being like "I want to drown in your love! Liebestod!" or "Oh, my love, please save me from drowning!" (which is better for Sp-not-last than liebestod is).

@Verbrannte You seem somewhere on the autism spectrum so starting fights is expected. Having opinions is not the same as identifying with things you love though. Its attraction/repulsion, not opinions about things like socionics. There's plenty of people that have very odd or contronversial views who are sx last.
You said you don't need to be close to a partner at all. That is definitely not sx first and the fact that you're ignoring this fact and typing sx first anyway is kind of retarded tbh.

There are plenty of passionate people who are sx last, Soc firsts are passionate about social issues. Sx first are passionate about passion, and passion in the romantic/sexual sense (i have to keep saying this because for some reason its hard to get it into your head).

"being focused on relationships" is not 2 in itself. 2s want to have the image of themself as a helper, and a loving person. And I am soo far from that, haha, being around 2s make me feel super uncomfortable because we are like the opposite, 2s are warm and loving - i'm cold and distant (except in relationships) and see myself as broken.
When 4s are unhealthy, they disintegrate to 2 and become overly clingy and needy, they don't suddenly start acting like they want to help everyone though.

You can't type people synflow or contraflow just by certain things they say and especially not on the internet.
I would love to be on an enneagram forum - if there was one.

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Originally Posted by Ghost

@Verbrannte You seem somewhere on the autism spectrum so starting fights is expected.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRPILZS1hc8

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Originally Posted by Ghost

Having opinions is not the same as identifying with things you love though. Its attraction/repulsion, not opinions about things like socionics.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MV3iYOwrvRc

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Originally Posted by Ghost

I would love to be on an enneagram forum - if there was one.

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http://personalitycafe.com/enneagram...-theory-forum/
http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/forum70/
http://9types.com/
http://www.enneagram.net/

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Originally Posted by Verbrannte

http://personalitycafe.com/enneagram...-theory-forum/

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not an enneagram forum

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http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/forum70/

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not an enneagram forum

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http://9types.com/

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last post was made 2003

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http://www.enneagram.net/

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inactive

There was EIDB, who was pretty active, maybe more active than this forum, but they shut down.

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Originally Posted by Ghost

I would guess Yoko Ono is sp/sx from her pictures and also this picture. See how detached she is? But still intriguing because there is sx under there somewhere, but it's being contained by the sp shell. :love:

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The link doesn't work. But it's sx/sp that's described that way, not sp/sx:

"sx/sp mystifier (midrange) - the range where the mystique of the sx/sp stack is at its strongest. unconsciously attracts with intense eye contact and other sx feelers, but holds back enough to give them a kind of untouchable or hard to get close to quality. depending on their true intentions this can either frustrate their sx or reward their functional sp cooling system. like midrangers of all stacks, there's a seemingly casual approach to meeting their variant needs as the secondary instinct is kept both in play and at bay, and others may wonder what they really want.

sx/sp wanderer (strong sp) - the most clasically 'blocked' of the sx's, often exchanging intimacy in favor of the more immediate pleasures of the body. paradoxically the most wandering and restless of the sx/sp's. pulls from sp/so to ensure the sx flood is contained by the sp levee, which can provide a sense of stability at the expense of seeming put off by others. sex can mean a hollow satisfying of the instinct while more vulnerable feelings are suspended. quietly charged but muted, and can seem self pres first."

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Originally Posted by Jarno

hoi willekeurig, hoe gaat ie ermee.

Difference would be most clear by just looking at the main instinct.
Sx is focussed on others, Sp is focussed on self.
Sx types : here the fuck i am in your face dude. even when they are shy, they tend to gravitate towards this. Let's burn something and have a drink to 4 oclock in the morning.
Sp types : my shoe hurts, i don't go out with you guys, i have to sleep at 10 oclock, my belly hurts, i only like half of the food they served, i leave the rest uneaten.

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Agree with the first part, perfect, but the Sx description is geared towards Sx/So and the Sp one is Sp/So- influenced. We want the difference between Sp/Sx | Sx/Sp here; how would your descriptions look like for them?

here the fuck i am in your face dude. ---> Yea that's me you summarized my approach to everything :crispy:

https://media.giphy.com/media/donkKNKjxEFkk/giphy.gif

@Myst Sx firsts are more intense, sexual, obsessed. Just look at John in the pic. Sp/sx are more cat like and independent. They have sexual energy but more detached and don't get lost in sx. The stacking descriptions are usually bad. But I like these ones: http://enneasite.com/the-stackings/

Attachment 8887
Here, jees why was it so hard to find a functioning picture. :S

Anyway. How they're dressed I also interpret as a metaphor. John (sx first) is naked, bearing it all and being vulnerable, risking being destroyed. Yoko (sp/sx) is dressed and holding back, detached. There is a wall there.

@Ghost How long have you spent in an English-speaking country? You don't seem to understand a word I say. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt now instead of assuming you're just a troll here to make us all laugh.

@Verbrannte, only on vacations? You don't seem to understand the main point of what ANYONE is saying here even if you understand the language. You're in your own ignorant mind

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Originally Posted by Ghost

@Verbrannte, only on vacations? You don't seem to understand the main point of what ANYONE is saying here even if you understand the language. You're in your own ignorant mind

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Was zum Teufel

Sp/sx will hold back on getting into romantic relationships in order to take care of their education, health, getting a job/home etc. When those basics are fulfilled and stable, that's when they feel they can actually lose themselves in someone. But even then I think sp/sx is gonna be careful and only pursue partners that will be able to provide secure, long-term relationship.

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Originally Posted by Myst

"sx/sp mystifier (midrange) - the range where the mystique of the sx/sp stack is at its strongest. unconsciously attracts with intense eye contact and other sx feelers, but holds back enough to give them a kind of untouchable or hard to get close to quality. depending on their true intentions this can either frustrate their sx or reward their functional sp cooling system. like midrangers of all stacks, there's a seemingly casual approach to meeting their variant needs as the secondary instinct is kept both in play and at bay, and others may wonder what they really want.

sx/sp wanderer (strong sp) - the most clasically 'blocked' of the sx's, often exchanging intimacy in favor of the more immediate pleasures of the body. paradoxically the most wandering and restless of the sx/sp's. pulls from sp/so to ensure the sx flood is contained by the sp levee, which can provide a sense of stability at the expense of seeming put off by others. sex can mean a hollow satisfying of the instinct while more vulnerable feelings are suspended. quietly charged but muted, and can seem self pres first."

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I think those range descriptions are bullshit. Holding back and being unconscious of attracting is so against being sx-dom. Casually approaching the needs of an instinct suggests very strongly that it's a secondary instinct. So yeah those descriptions are actually what sp/sx stacking is and if you follow them then you should reconsider your typing.

I've also seen this description of SX/SP: "If I can make (us) have an orderly & pleasing lifestyle, I can keep up and escalate all this merging/intensity." Which is actually SP/SX.
Weird how people get them confused. Only when I have my SX under control and is happy with it, I can focus on the rest of my life (SP).

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Originally Posted by Ghost

@Myst Sx firsts are more intense, sexual, obsessed. Just look at John in the pic. Sp/sx are more cat like and independent. They have sexual energy but more detached and don't get lost in sx. The stacking descriptions are usually bad. But I like these ones: http://enneasite.com/the-stackings/

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Detached and not lost in sx internally, or just an impression by the outsider?

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Originally Posted by Lustghost

Sp/sx will hold back on getting into romantic relationships in order to take care of their education, health, getting a job/home etc. When those basics are fulfilled and stable, that's when they feel they can actually lose themselves in someone. But even then I think sp/sx is gonna be careful and only pursue partners that will be able to provide secure, long-term relationship.

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That's a good summary of sp>sx.

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Originally Posted by Lustghost

I think those range descriptions are bullshit. Holding back and being unconscious of attracting is so against being sx-dom. Casually approaching the needs of an instinct suggests very strongly that it's a secondary instinct. So yeah those descriptions are actually what sp/sx stacking is and if you follow them then you should reconsider your typing.

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I find the descriptions rather good. You completely misinterpreted it if you think it's about "casually approaching" the needs of the sx instinct. It says SEEMINGLY.

Btw, they are from here: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...tual-Stackings

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Originally Posted by Ghost

I've also seen this description of SX/SP: "If I can make (us) have an orderly & pleasing lifestyle, I can keep up and escalate all this merging/intensity." Which is actually SP/SX.
Weird how people get them confused. Only when I have my SX under control and is happy with it, I can focus on the rest of my life (SP).

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The same source refers to sp/sx as: ""I can have merging/intensity without having to leave my orderly & pleasing lifestyle." (imagination, safe people and relationships, when the safety of these are challenged they withdraw)"

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Originally Posted by Myst

I find the descriptions rather good. You completely misinterpreted it if you think it's about "casually approaching" the needs of the sx instinct. It says SEEMINGLY.

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The descriptions may sound good, but sp/sx can easily identify with them too and then mistype. I'd rather focus on how sx-firsts actually feel if their primary need is not fulfilled. Sx-doms self-worth is based on the ability to be in a relationship or just desirability in general. That's because they literally feel like shit without any immediate connection/chemistry and to attract a person that could potentially fulfill it, you obviously need to be desirable. It's like they're not complete without a person that they could click with instantly. Sx-doms are neurotic/obsessive about intimate relationships and often feel like failures in that area because it is so important for them. The dominant instinct either makes you feel the best or the worst.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Myst

Detached and not lost in sx internally, or just an impression by the outsider?

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Hm. they can get lost in it, but it's not a drug problem like sx firsts who are addicted to the feeling of not quite having.
Like.. when we see someone we want. We are all for it and want it now. Our life revolves around it. When we fully get it and that person is finally begging at our feet, the fire runs out. Until they don't want us anymore. That feeling of masochism is the drug.

Quote:

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The same source refers to sp/sx as: ""I can have merging/intensity without having to leave my orderly & pleasing lifestyle." (imagination, safe people and relationships, when the safety of these are challenged they withdraw)"

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My sp/sx friend said he doesn't even relate to that sp/sx one. Don't remember why though.

@Lustghost I feel like you are my alter ego that I don't know about, like in Fight Club. You even have "ghost" in your name. hmm..

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Originally Posted by Lustghost

The descriptions may sound good, but sp/sx can easily identify with them too and then mistype. I'd rather focus on how sx-firsts actually feel if their primary need is not fulfilled. Sx-doms self-worth is based on the ability to be in a relationship or just desirability in general. That's because they literally feel like shit without any immediate connection/chemistry and to attract a person that could potentially fulfill it, you obviously need to be desirable. It's like they're not complete without a person that they could click with instantly. Sx-doms are neurotic/obsessive about intimate relationships and often feel like failures in that area because it is so important for them. The dominant instinct either makes you feel the best or the worst.

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Sure, that's a problem with all descriptions out there. It depends on the amount of the understanding the person reading them has, too. Understanding about the theory and about themselves.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ghost

Hm. they can get lost in it, but it's not a drug problem like sx firsts who are addicted to the feeling of not quite having.
Like.. when we see someone we want. We are all for it and want it now. Our life revolves around it. When we fully get it and that person is finally begging at our feet, the fire runs out. Until they don't want us anymore. That feeling of masochism is the drug.

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I don't relate to the push-pull thing in relationships too strongly, I prefer a bit more consistency but it would of course be boring if everything was easy always. I relate to the rest.

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My sp/sx friend said he doesn't even relate to that sp/sx one. Don't remember why though.

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Well if you get to remember, feel free to post about it.

@Myst I think the sx/sp pretas metaphor is really good

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Pretas are invisible to the human eye, but some believe they can be discerned by humans in certain mental states. They are described as human-like, but with sunken, mummified skin, narrow limbs, enormously distended bellies and long, thin necks. This appearance is a metaphor for their mental situation: they have enormous appetites, signified by their gigantic bellies, but a very limited ability to satisfy those appetites, symbolized by their slender necks.

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Pretas dwell in the waste and desert places of the earth, and vary in situation according to their past karma. Some of them can eat a little, but find it very difficult to find food or drink. Others can find food and drink, but find it very difficult to swallow. Others find that the food they eat seems to burst into flames as they swallow it. Others see something edible or drinkable and desire it but it withers or dries up before their eyes. As a result, they are always hungry.

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I thought this was a 4 thing before. @Aylen sx/sp + 4 is so much paain

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Originally Posted by Ghost

@Myst I think the sx/sp pretas metaphor is really good

I thought this was a 4 thing before. @Aylen sx/sp + 4 is so much paain

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Got the sp/sx metaphor too for comparison?

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Originally Posted by Myst

Got the sp/sx metaphor too for comparison?

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naraka_(Buddhism)

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sp/sx (Hell) = acultural solipsism ~ counterculture original, underbelly exposure, smoldering mysterian, the fermenting underground, cool & detached

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from enneasite.com

its that. i'm not sp/sx so i can't explain :shrug: besides that sp firsts can stay with things they hate for long, to have financial security which theyre obsessed with. it makes sense though. sp/sx doesnt have the soc instinct so they dont care what society think + theyre contraflow hence they are the darkest stacking.

i tried to find something that he wrote on forums and i found this:

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bL- I agree with sx/sp having an underlying drive to infect on a person-to-person level. With sp/sx, the pull toward exposing the underbelly of society and humanity (sometimes through the context of person-to-person scenarios), starting an atrophy cycle that melts established social forms at an elemental level.

For me, that points again to the correlation between sx/sp and Hungry Ghosts, and sp/sx with Hell. Hungry ghosts is hyper-personal and has a heart-connected quality to it (a victim of the plague of yearning), while sp/sx is about the place, somehow haunting the larger sphere/setting; the World as Hell.

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Originally Posted by Ghost

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naraka_(Buddhism)
from enneasite.com

its that. i'm not sp/sx so i can't explain :shrug: besides that sp firsts can stay with things they hate for long, to have financial security which theyre obsessed with. it makes sense though. sp/sx doesnt have the soc instinct so they dont care what society think + theyre contraflow hence they are the darkest stacking.

i tried to find something that he wrote on forums and i found this:

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Makes a bit of sense. I did notice they are pretty dark.

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Originally Posted by Ghost

sp/sx doesnt have the soc instinct so they dont care what society think + theyre contraflow hence they are the darkest stacking.

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Both sp/sx and sx/sp are dark, it's just sx/sp is more drawn to people/individuals so it automatically makes them less antisocial in a way, lol.

"sx/sp and sp/sx are significantly missing the Social elements of fresh air and sunlight. Looking at them there’s a kind of shrouded/hooded quality, something of a cave-dweller or a Death theme in some form. ‹ Take away air, quickly comes Death. ›The obliviousness to the collective good (Social-last) contributes to the shadowy/cloaked quality of these stackings — there’s an unintelligence about social stigma that can take people of these two stackings deep into ‘alternative’ territories. The aspect of Social that’s compelled to define people into clear roles that connect into a bigger picture is missing here. So, an upside in these two stackings is that communications can be more personal, contactful and intimate because the aura of the collective isn’t brought into one-to-one exchanges in the way it inadvertently is with those who aren’t social-last. This friend-of-the-dark quality can translate to a capacity to work, hands on (figuratively-speaking), in the muck of psyche, and linger long in a non-judgmental attitude with other people’s ugly/corrupt underbellies and issues, potentially even spilling themselves into others’ dark sides."

That's why I said it's the darkest stacking...

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Originally Posted by Ghost

That's why I said it's the darkest stacking...

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Theoretically, yeah. It doesn't always manifest like that irl though. I've met sx/sp's that are much darker and fucked up than sp/sx's, because of their riskiness.

@Lustghost Well with dark I don't mean fucked up. I mean reclusive, shrouded. Sp/sx have no problem having no partner or friends at all while sx/sp wants that and is somewhat social.

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sx/sp(hungry ghosts) = urgent bonding / ‘unfortunate’ belonging ~ the perpetually orthogonal embrace of the seeker/searcher
sp/sx(Hell) = acultural solipsism ~ counterculture original, underbelly exposure, smoldering mysterian, the fermenting underground, cool & detached

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Are Sx types more likely to complain about not being passionate enough or having no one to chase or nothing to become addicted to? Do Dispassionate Sp types notice their lack of care for intensity or total interest and absorption in something or is it just natural and something that doesnt conflict with their Sp instinct?

How does one decide between Sp/Sx and Sx/Sp if they are a core 4?
It's important to note that Sp is the counter-type 4.

The second function is used as a tool to attain the first function, no?
How?

Which type would be more "Sx-y" when single compared to when partnered? (openly, as in more antics on social media to satisfy Sx needs when single, etc)

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Originally Posted by TrappedEscapist

How does one decide between Sp/Sx and Sx/Sp if they are a core 4?
It's important to note that Sp is the counter-type 4.

The second function is used as a tool to attain the first function, no?
How?

Which type would be more "Sx-y" when single compared to when partnered? (openly, as in more antics on social media to satisfy Sx needs when single, etc)

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Here you go, @TrappedEscapist: https://oceanmoonshine9.wordpress.com/four-stacks/

Nice avatar pic, incidentally.

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Originally Posted by Adam Strange

Here you go, @TrappedEscapist: https://oceanmoonshine9.wordpress.com/four-stacks/

Nice avatar pic, incidentally.

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Yes, thank you, I have read through that.

I am not sure how "volatile" I am. Definitely a bit, but not sure I am the most volatile of the enneagram. I need more concrete examples. I'd like to make sure that I understand how the instincts interact with one another so that I can refine my understanding that way.

?? - accurate? :

Yeah, sp/sx doesn't want to reach out for the partner when their life isn't stable. It's partially also b/c they don't think they'd be a good partner. It's like, irresponsible to try to date when you're not mentally, resource wise, "healthy." Esp if the other person forms a strong attachment, sp can tell (I think), that not showing up is messing them up, destroying their health basically. But it's also about the sp-person, their desire and ability to show up

Btw I don't find any of the instincts "selfish." It's where your brain/sense of self "lives." No one can "help it"

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Originally Posted by hag 3

Are Sx types more likely to complain about not being passionate enough or having no one to chase or nothing to become addicted to? Do Dispassionate Sp types notice their lack of care for intensity or total interest and absorption in something or is it just natural and something that doesnt conflict with their Sp instinct?

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I'm definitely complaining! Ohohooo, there's a lot to get addicted to, there's porn, there're flix, there're video games. But my complaint is on people. Not only most people are not passionate enough but nowadays in the world of smartphones, facebook, etc. they're also very snide, guileful and disloyal as well. I mean the socials because if they weren't the majority, than we wouldn't have this infrastructure, these networks of technology that put the individual on a narcissistic pedestal and instead of reinforcing a stronger social cohesion, they make people more distant. As an Sx/Sp 6 I'm often left ghosted, hanging, given the silent treatment. Maybe anxious attachment style is a reason, maybe it transpires, as much as diplomatic I try to be. And no, online forums are even bigger a mess when it comes to ordering people into categories, allowing them to tag themselves with labels of types. Most people are social, the forums are all about cliques and nobody is what they indicate themselves to be. So the hunger continues...

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Originally Posted by Neokortex

So the hunger continues...

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Hunger, need, drive, yearning, obsession, compulsion, consumed, empty, pull, lust, addiction. . . all sx descriptive terms imo. And yes like you said, a lot of socials do type as sx "I post provocative pictures on social media to get lots of likes, I must be sx" "I want everyone to like me and find me attractive, I must be sx" "I'm horny, I must be sx" etc etc. when it's social instinct driving them in the first two cases, and while the third is literally about sex, sex itself is also a physical sp need and a social bonding need, and not really the same thing as having a life focus towards sx instinct. Sx in an sx/sp is like an addict finding their drug of choice, really dialed-in, involved, consumed, nothing else in the world even exists kind of thing.

I agree with InnerLust that being casual about an instinct points to it being your secondary. You don't have any weird hangups or problems with the second one, it's the one place where you're normal and balanced about stuff. You can engage in it or not, and either way it's a choice and not a big deal.

And @lemontrees, yeah I think that quote is probably accurate. It makes sense anyway.

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Originally Posted by squark

Hunger, need, drive, yearning, obsession, compulsion, consumed, empty, pull, lust, addiction. . .

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But this is an outrage! The whole thing has been co-opted and there's no good admin or mod or anyone to create order out of this mess. Right now the forums are just good for signaling and venting. You hope if you put out your "type," then others will notice. There's no cohesion, no cooperation, no "let's see what we all want and make it democratic." And the way I see it is that this was supposed to be a system, a "science," even if a bit too empirical and based on emotional intuitions - but precisely because of that it invites a lot of "wannabe artist" types. People who fancy to be special. Who want an identity. Who want to show they have feelings, they don't just get drunk and copulate without a reason. They want to be dignified. Mysticism, esoteria, arcane spirituality to make you feel as if you had a spirit. Hence, there are not enough HEAD TYPES on the forum. Not enough principled people to build an architecture that could guide people to their own folk. There's no one accounting for the whole SPECTRUM, the demography of the forums just represents one TINY SLICE of the variety out there. People have to understand that like attracts like and similar "ISTJs" band together in some area, while other varieties (e.g. not into typology) in other areas. There's no wonder why you may grow to RESENT YOUR OWN TYPE in a forum - one reason being they've mistyped; the other that the demography lacks insight on subvarieties. In fact, some subtypes may conflict with others, you may not want me on your forum because we have different agendas. And seeing how libertarian or intersectional-conservative it established itself, the people attracted here will not want rules or limitations. (oh and btw, you might be Sp blind spot)