EIE's Fe, Fi or something else?

Hello everybody,
So… my life is pretty much full of EIEs lol

My father is an EIE-Ni (married to an LSI-Se <3 – mom) and I have a couple of friends EIE-Ni and EIE-Fe and hearing my mom’s complaints about dad and looking at them all I realized something really weird!
EIEs look (LOOK) unreliable… their Fe adaptability to the external environment makes them look (LOOK) as if they were changing their minds every two seconds (according to who is present).
It must be a tough life… it kinda looks (LOOKS) like they’re being pushed and pulled in every direction all the time emotionally speaking (no wonder they score constructivist in Reinin Dichotomies o.O ).
Another thing they look (LOOK) like is self-oriented and self-absorbed… like it’s their view or the external world, their idea of how it should be, their desired external environment, their position, their achievements.
Don’t get me wrong I don’t have anything against it, I just find it curious and it may explain why some people out there ostracize Fe leads.
So, EIEs and everybody else, ideas? Opinions?
I was pondering on Fi ignoring being translated into Fe needs

Dunno about looks but what I do know is that reliability is strongly in their values at least when dualized any.

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Originally Posted by Esaman

Dunno about looks but what I do know is that reliability is strongly in their values at least when dualized any.

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What if they are dualised with an LSI who isn't reliable?

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Originally Posted by Words

What if they are dualised with an LSI who isn't reliable?

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They'd be left wanting ie valuing.

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Originally Posted by Esaman

They'd be left wanting ie valuing.

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I struggle to see how being dependable is exclusive to a psychological type, but within the realms of this theory online, that's where it is.

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Originally Posted by Words

I struggle to see how being dependable is exclusive to a psychological type, but within the realms of this theory online, that's where it is.

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Simplistic smartasses is where it is at. "Valuing -valuing more than average person" is implied.

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Originally Posted by Esaman

Simplistic smartasses is where it is at. "Valuing -valuing more than average person" is implied.

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Yes you are being quite simplistic.

But you lack common sense.

And also manners in your post.

OK then, how do you know that, "Dunno about looks but what I do know is that reliability is strongly in their values at least when dualized any."? Because I will say you don't know shit.

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Originally Posted by Words

OK then, how do you know that, "Dunno about looks but what I do know is that reliability is strongly in their values at least when dualized any."? Because I will say you don't know shit.

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Ti base involves natural strive/work on being structured at the very least in what you say - knowing what you are saying and meaning it.
Part of Se is tenacity- will and aspiration to achieve despite circumstances.
Add Ne PoLR for LSI and they are the ones most oriented towards reliability.
That Ti and Se is the best stuff for EIE and if they know or sense that (are dualised) they will respect associated values.

That is the theory to which I have observed some confirmation from EIEs on forums.
Can't say that have observed many EIE is in the wild as to comment on how EIEs look for OP.

The dual seeking function and the mobilized function are sure things in which we would like to be strong, but they are still two of our weekest functions in our stack. If your theory is correct and Ti and Se provide this sense of reliability and stability, then maybe they want to be like that but are actually not.
That dualized EIEs base on such values kinda proves my point, don’t you think? :)

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Originally Posted by Esaman

Ti base involves natural strive/work on being structured at the very least in what you say - knowing what you are saying and meaning it.
Part of Se is tenacity- will and aspiration to achieve despite circumstances.
Add Ne PoLR for LSI and they are the ones most oriented towards reliability.
That Ti and Se is the best stuff for EIE and if they know or sense that (are dualised) they will respect associated values.

That is the theory to which I have observed some confirmation from EIEs on forums.
Can't say that have observed many EIE is in the wild as to comment on how EIEs look for OP.

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This is like to me saying that an LSE can't be lazy.

They come in all flavours and I don't envy your attempts to try to create a sense out of this.

For instance, we know that type descriptions don't reflect every member of the particular type, or indeed their preferences, what you are really doing, albeit in a less easily recognisable way, is using another type description.

I think these things are important to keep in mind that generalities don't become specifics.

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Originally Posted by Lilith

That dualized EIEs base on such values kinda proves my point, don’t you think? :)

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Yep :lol:

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Originally Posted by Words

This is like to me saying that an LSE can't be lazy.

They come in all flavours and I don't envy your attempts to try to create a sense out of this.

For instance, we know that type descriptions don't reflect every member of the particular type, or indeed their preferences, what you are really doing, albeit in a less easily recognisable way, is using another type description.

I think these things are important to keep in mind that generalities don't become specifics.

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That is called typology. I am aware of nuances. Should I show you the door?

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Originally Posted by Esaman

Yep :lol:


That is called typology. I am aware of nuances. Should I show you the door?

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You give the impression of being a zealot.

And it is not called typology, it is called Esaman rambling on the net.

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Originally Posted by Lilith

Hello everybody,
So… my life is pretty much full of EIEs lol

My father is an EIE-Ni (married to an LSI-Se <3 – mom) and I have a couple of friends EIE-Ni and EIE-Fe and hearing my mom’s complaints about dad and looking at them all I realized something really weird!
EIEs look (LOOK) unreliable… their Fe adaptability to the external environment makes them look (LOOK) as if they were changing their minds every two seconds (according to who is present).
It must be a tough life… it kinda looks (LOOKS) like they’re being pushed and pulled in every direction all the time emotionally speaking (no wonder they score constructivist in Reinin Dichotomies o.O ).
Another thing they look (LOOK) like is self-oriented and self-absorbed… like it’s their view or the external world, their idea of how it should be, their desired external environment, their position, their achievements.
Don’t get me wrong I don’t have anything against it, I just find it curious and it may explain why some people out there ostracize Fe leads.
So, EIEs and everybody else, ideas? Opinions?
I was pondering on Fi ignoring being translated into Fe needs

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Please forgive me if i am being overly simplistic with this response. I am happy to answer any questions that i can. I value structure. Just because it is my dual seeking function doesnt mean that I am incapable of creating structure for myself. I am not dualized, but that doesnt mean that I cant find systems that I can make use of to help myself. I know what I want to achieve: clean my house for a family reunion, for example. I try to think of a complete list of steps, I write them down and try to make myself follow the list. Sometimes I am better at it than others. Many times I deviate from the list, perhaps over focusing on a step, and then I realize that I have wasted valuable time. Then I quickly reevaluate priorities and execute the most important of the remaining steps with a great sense of urgency and determination.

I am very good at compensating for the parts of my list that I left undone. So i might be good at Se and Te in these situations. Using the family reunion example: I didnt get to the store because I ran out of time. Alone in my kitchen, I open the fridge and all I have is 3 nearly empty and crummy-looking bottles of salad dressing. I get a physical sensation of panic and disappointment, because it is important to me that everything look nice and hopefully taste nice because that is my way of showing respect to the family. I quickly grab a pretty crystal pitcher and combine the 2 most likely to taste good together. I get complements on the delicious new dressing which I accept modestly and graciously...

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Originally Posted by Lilith

Hello everybody,
So… my life is pretty much full of EIEs lol

My father is an EIE-Ni (married to an LSI-Se <3 – mom) and I have a couple of friends EIE-Ni and EIE-Fe and hearing my mom’s complaints about dad and looking at them all I realized something really weird!
EIEs look (LOOK) unreliable… their Fe adaptability to the external environment makes them look (LOOK) as if they were changing their minds every two seconds (according to who is present).
It must be a tough life… it kinda looks (LOOKS) like they’re being pushed and pulled in every direction all the time emotionally speaking (no wonder they score constructivist in Reinin Dichotomies o.O ).
Another thing they look (LOOK) like is self-oriented and self-absorbed… like it’s their view or the external world, their idea of how it should be, their desired external environment, their position, their achievements.
Don’t get me wrong I don’t have anything against it, I just find it curious and it may explain why some people out there ostracize Fe leads.
So, EIEs and everybody else, ideas? Opinions?
I was pondering on Fi ignoring being translated into Fe needs

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Another few observations...

I am not a fan of self absorbed, unreliable people. I would never want to appear that way or be that way. That would go against my value system. I dont like to be disappointed by unreliable people, so I try not to be unreliable myself.

@Iris , thanks for your input, highly appreciated :)

I haven't read the entire thread yet, but I'll say a version of what I always say around this topic. Fi looks (LOOKS) from my Fe perspective almost exactly the same way the OP describes Fi. Just switch around some of the causatives to get a similar result.

Try this--I recast what you wrote:

Fi looks (LOOKS) unreliable… Fi inadaptability to the external environment makes Fi egos look (LOOK) as if they were changing their minds every two seconds (according to what they are feeling).
It must be a tough life… it kinda looks (LOOKS) like they’re being pushed and pulled in every direction all the time emotionally speaking.
Another thing they look (LOOK) like is self-oriented and self-absorbed… like it’s their view without regard to the external world, their idea of how you should be, their desired version of reality, so that they can maintain their internal environment, their moral superiority.
Don’t get me wrong I don’t have anything against it, I just find it curious and it may explain why some people out there ostracize Fi leads.

How does inadaptabliity look pushed and pulled in every direction and like constantly changing mind?

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Originally Posted by Esaman

Ti base involves natural strive/work on being structured at the very least in what you say - knowing what you are saying and meaning it.
Part of Se is tenacity- will and aspiration to achieve despite circumstances.
Add Ne PoLR for LSI and they are the ones most oriented towards reliability.

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I like your remarks. The words that I like best are tenacity, reliability, will, and aspiration. I think those words could describe me.

@Lilith I think a person who is constantly changing their mind in response to externals is more likely to be Ne valuing, which would have the effect of annoying an LSI.

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Originally Posted by GOLDEN

I haven't read the entire thread yet, but I'll say a version of what I always say around this topic. Fi looks (LOOKS) from my Fe perspective almost exactly the same way the OP describes Fi. Just switch around some of the causatives to get a similar result.

Try this--I recast what you wrote:

Fi looks (LOOKS) unreliable… Fi inadaptability to the external environment makes Fi egos look (LOOK) as if they were changing their minds every two seconds (according to what they are feeling).
It must be a tough life… it kinda looks (LOOKS) like they’re being pushed and pulled in every direction all the time emotionally speaking.
Another thing they look (LOOK) like is self-oriented and self-absorbed… like it’s their view without regard to the external world, their idea of how you should be, their desired version of reality, so that they can maintain their internal environment, their moral superiority.
Don’t get me wrong I don’t have anything against it, I just find it curious and it may explain why some people out there ostracize Fi leads.

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Don't think so. Fi leads reflect on relationships/sides and so are semi objective. They moralize and have it as structure to deal with. Fe lead is more likely to go "this is what feels right or wrong at the moment".

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Originally Posted by Lilith

How does inadaptabliity look pushed and pulled in every direction and like constantly changing mind?

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I think I see your point and could have rephrased that part to be more nuanced. I flipped those statements around very quickly because I was irritated. Reason being, I found your OP to be judgmental while disavowing judgmentality such as by using the word "looks" repeatedly.

For example, stating that Fe people are often ostracized, as if that's a matter of fact and particular to them as opposed to other people, is . . . questionable. :thinking: It doesn't fit my experience, at any rate.

Anyway.

I sometimes really like Fi people, and those I don't like I just hold at a distance. Things can go wrong if I'd rather stay away from an Fi person but through force of circumstance don't have that option.

A worst-case interpretation is like this:

Fi seems to see itself as highly stable and steady. But from the outside, it doesn't look like that to me. Instead it looks volatile.

Not adaptable to externals --> pushed and pulled instead according to internal convictions. The disconnection from external facts leads to self-contradiction. Such as claiming to value being harmonious with people, even while fostering disharmony without realizing it.

It looks like chaos to me. I can't know what to expect from the person. The driving forces are invisible and not derived from information I have access to. It doesn't match up with anything in my world.

Where I do support your language of "looks" is that there's really nothing personal in this disconnection. This is hardly a revelation, but Fe and Fi just don't have much use for each other. They cover the same territory, but using different navigational equipment. I suppose an Fe person might evaluate an Fi person according to what s/he is actually looking for, which is Ti.

Fe is a good compliment to Ti because Ti trades in internally formulated structures regarding reality but needs it warmed up and loosened up to connect with people as they are, messy and complicated and shifting. As for me, I'm always looking for something to cool down my boiling mess, and for ways to resolve ambiguity, and Ti is very helpful in that regard. Confront me with Fi and I'll get sunk in more and more complications.

I assume some of these dynamics exist on the Fi/Te side too.

To clarify, we think we're ostracized, but such isn't really the case. It's because paranoia. All betas are paranoid of social faux passes, and express reservations. What makes us different is whether we surmount those paranoid delusions. Two EIEs are exemplary of this. They don't care about anyone else. They just let their voice ring, and I respect that. I try to copy them in this, and hope others do as well.

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Originally Posted by GOLDEN

I think I see your point and could have rephrased that part to be more nuanced. I flipped those statements around very quickly because I was irritated. Reason being, I found your OP to be judgmental while disavowing judgmentality such as by using the word "looks" repeatedly.

For example, stating that Fe people are often ostracized, as if that's a matter of fact and particular to them as opposed to other people, is . . . questionable. :thinking: It doesn't fit my experience, at any rate.

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I don’t see anywhere in my post written that Fe types are ostracized. But I clearly recall saying that “SOME people ostracize Fe leads”.
This said, I honestly can't do anything about your interpretation of my words other then take note.

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Originally Posted by GOLDEN

Anyway.

I sometimes really like Fi people, and those I don't like I just hold at a distance. Things can go wrong if I'd rather stay away from an Fi person but through force of circumstance don't have that option.

A worst-case interpretation is like this:

Fi seems to see itself as highly stable and steady. But from the outside, it doesn't look like that to me. Instead it looks volatile.

Not adaptable to externals --> pushed and pulled instead according to internal convictions. The disconnection from external facts leads to self-contradiction. Such as claiming to value being harmonious with people, even while fostering disharmony without realizing it.

It looks like chaos to me. I can't know what to expect from the person. The driving forces are invisible and not derived from information I have access to. It doesn't match up with anything in my world.

Where I do support your language of "looks" is that there's really nothing personal in this disconnection. This is hardly a revelation, but Fe and Fi just don't have much use for each other. They cover the same territory, but using different navigational equipment. I suppose an Fe person might evaluate an Fi person according to what s/he is actually looking for, which is Ti.

Fe is a good compliment to Ti because Ti trades in internally formulated structures regarding reality but needs it warmed up and loosened up to connect with people as they are, messy and complicated and shifting. As for me, I'm always looking for something to cool down my boiling mess, and for ways to resolve ambiguity, and Ti is very helpful in that regard. Confront me with Fi and I'll get sunk in more and more complications.

I assume some of these dynamics exist on the Fi/Te side too.

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Thanks for clarifying.

I view Fi like an ancient tree with strong roots and many layers developed through experience whereas I see Fe as rushes bending at the wind of the emotions around them.
So, in my mind Fe is pushed and pulled, whereas Fi is stable and adamant.

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Originally Posted by Esaman

Don't think so. Fi leads reflect on relationships/sides and so are semi objective. They moralize and have it as structure to deal with. Fe lead is more likely to go "this is what feels right or wrong at the moment".

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Fi has structure, sure. But it appears highly idiosyncratic to me. From my pov it can be like walking across a minefield of hidden sore spots and unstated attachments and moral judgments. It may be a highly structured minefield, but as I'm walking across the surface and don't have a chart outlying what lies underground, I'm hardly at ease.

I suppose I focus on people's states of being. And I do respond to it directly. That's "at the moment," as you say, but the information and my response to it don't move in a vacuum.

I automatically try to "meet people where they are," but the overarching values determining how they got there, what they want, and where they're going are in a sense constructed by society, and universal to the human "animal."

And gaining more lived experience, and learning more of the psychosocial principles that affect people, makes it easier to read and respond to people effectively.

That's an attempt to describe how I live, lol. And it seems kind of useless to Fi people. If I'm dealing with an Fi ego who's in tears over something, I find myself uncertain of what I can do for them.

There is no way or me to "fix" the Fi person's problem by attending to his or her emotional state per se. I can actually piss them off by addressing that, almost as if my focus on what I see is an insult, which generally comes as a shock to me. So I gradually am learning with Fi people to hold back sometimes, and be more quiet and patient where their issues are concerned. It's better to let them point things out to me. I'm still not the best person to help them resolve issues, but I can be more supportive by being less pushy. At least then they know I'm feeling supportive toward them. That's not a bad thing.

Uh, so that can work okay when things are fairly low-stakes and normal-ish.

It becomes harder to do, the more strongly factors like psychological instability, high-conflict situations, and high emotional stakes come into play. I feel judged and am not even given the tools to understand exactly what I'm being judged for. Whatever I further do or say gets warped in the Fi's conceptions. My very personhood feels under siege.

And meanwhile, it appears to me that the Fi person's states of being and actions are perpetually mismatched. The person will tell me that they value something, yet create conditions in themselves and vis-a-vis others, moment by moment, that work entirely against the value.

So in this case, there may be Fi consistency over time, but not consistency "in the moment" (in lots of moments, all strung together) between belief and behavior. And that's the alignment I care about most strongly.

TL;DR?
Fe = internal dynamics of objects
Fi = internal statics of fields

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Originally Posted by Kat

I view Fi like an ancient tree with strong roots and many layers developed through experience whereas I see Fe as rushes bending at the wind of the emotions around them.
So, in my mind Fe is pushed and pulled, whereas Fi is stable and adamant.

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Ok. :) b-b-b-b-u-t

"Pushed and pulled" is a way of saying someone is weak and unprincipled. "Stable" is considered positive. "Adamant" is perhaps neutral.

And that was my point originally. Your "pushed and pulled" is my "validating other people." Your "stable and adamant" is my "head up ass."

We've discussed the topic and also created a small case study.

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Originally Posted by Kat

Thanks for clarifying.

I view Fi like an ancient tree with strong roots and many layers developed through experience whereas I see Fe as rushes bending at the wind of the emotions around them.
So, in my mind Fe is pushed and pulled, whereas Fi is stable and adamant.

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Imagery experienced through your Ni base function. :love: I like it. :blow:

[my interpretation]

OMG! I love you so much for noticing, @Aylen!!! I'm working with binaural waves to strengthen the connection with my Ni!

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Originally Posted by Kat

OMG! I love you so much for noticing, @Aylen!!! I'm working with binaural waves to strengthen the connection with my Ni!

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Isn't it amazing how well it works?! I have been listening for months now and I have taken some amazing inner journeys to places previously unexplored. :love:

I read comments sometimes and notice how some people get absolutely nothing from it. I kind of wish that they could see and feel what I do while I am listening but maybe they can't because of their valued functions. Just some ideas I'm forming from learning more about socionics and brain dominance theories. I am so happy to see you active here, again. :hyper:

:hug:

Happy to find you @Aylen!!! ^_^

And yes, I've only just started with binaural waves, but I have to admit it's pretty much exhilarating! :D I've already seen incredible things XD

Well if OP wants to talk Reinin, I know Decisive > Judicious can lead to derails from the traditional perspective of Ni -- less prone to analysis paralysis than Intuitives are expected to be, more ready to take action, but also the potential to be lazy because of Carefree > Farsighted. Add to that, Se-Mobilizing giving a chronic lack of willpower and a lifelong need to compensate for and fulfill that.
These types don't know how to fight a war, they either actually do it or just don't.

Constructivist > Emotivist is paralyzing, I can barely answer the question "How was your day?" It's like autism or something.
But, I surprise people with how direct and decisive I can be, all suddenly jumping in and looking professional while Se-PoLRs are still drawing up plotters. It makes them jealous.

@Cubozoan: I view Se suggestive as a willpower against the ego drive. Let's say the leading function is the rider and the creative function is the horse, the suggestive function is a function that basically works as a little fly that hits the rider's eye right when he should stirr and the horse takes the wrong direction, or a mouse that bites the horse leg right the moment the rider is giving direction and the horse becomes untamable. Se suggestive is willpower in suggestive position, which means the rider programs to go to Berlin because intuition sees a brilliant future there, but Se suggestive wants to go to Disneyland, hence when time comes to do the necessary steps to go to Berlin, Se suggestive will subconsciously get in the way so that Berlin becomes more difficult to reach.

Like you're in love and you know your SO is busy working, you want to respect that, but suggestive Se wants to hear from your SO so when you're sending a text to your friend a combination of accidents typical of intuitive clumsiness will dial the number and call him and you realize it when it's already too late... LOL

Dis is how I see Se suggestive :P

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Originally Posted by Cubozoan

Constructivist > Emotivist is paralyzing, I can barely answer the question "How was your day?" It's like autism or something.

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That's because of constructivist really? I'm the same way :lol:

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Originally Posted by Kat

@Cubozoan: I view Se suggestive as a willpower against the ego drive. Let's say the leading function is the rider and the creative function is the horse, the suggestive function is a function that basically works as a little fly that hits the rider's eye right when he should stirr and the horse takes the wrong direction, or a mouse that bites the horse leg right the moment the rider is giving direction and the horse becomes untamable. Se suggestive is willpower in suggestive position, which means the rider programs to go to Berlin because intuition sees a brilliant future there, but Se suggestive wants to go to Disneyland, hence when time comes to do the necessary steps to go to Berlin, Se suggestive will subconsciously get in the way so that Berlin becomes more difficult to reach.

Like you're in love and you know your SO is busy working, you want to respect that, but suggestive Se wants to hear from your SO so when you're sending a text to your friend a combination of accidents typical of intuitive clumsiness will dial the number and call him and you realize it when it's already too late... LOL

Dis is how I see Se suggestive :P

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Wow, I would hate being so unaware of my desires :) Funny though

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Originally Posted by Myst

Wow, I would hate being so unaware of my desires :) Funny though

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That’s accurate actually… o.o
Imagine being in the middle of a valley in the middle of the mist, you don’t really know what exactly you’re doing there or what brought you there. You walk in the mist and in there you see things coming out but those things are not actually there, not yet, or maybe they are, just hidden to the eye. You know that you have to go in that direction and you know that whatever is waiting for you at the end, or whatever is coming next is what you need, you know it’s right and you like what is there, but it’s not enough. Liking it and knowing it’s right simply isn’t enough of a reason to move forth… and then it happens, an invisible force pulls you back and you trip in your feet and fall, hurting and angry for no specific reason, but you just can’t find the willpower to go in the direction you need to go. It’s too heavy, too distant, too difficult, too unattainable… Until you hear an echo in the distance and that echo fills you with a weird warmth and without knowing why you start walking again and the invisible force that made you trip in your feet isn’t strong enough to make you fall again.
I am lucky enough to have heard that echo <3

Yeah I agree with most of this thread. I just like to point out that Fi and Fe are not two dichotomies "doing" different aspects of the same thing. It's not internal/external ethics. I'm not going to redefine them. I only want to say that ethicals, SFs, NFs, are all fully capable and competent in both styles of ethics.

Also want to point out that introverted feeling being described here as some sort of "structure" is ludicrous and I can only conclude that this point of view is created by Ti-valuing types. Introverted ethics in ego block's that value it is fluid, ever changeable informational element that can and does respond to the outside environment in dynamic and responsive ways.

Ethics (Fe/Fi) are not an either/or thing. It's both.

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Originally Posted by wacey

Ethics (Fe/Fi) are not an either/or thing. It's both.

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Yes.

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Originally Posted by Kat

That’s accurate actually… o.o
Imagine being in the middle of a valley in the middle of the mist, you don’t really know what exactly you’re doing there or what brought you there. You walk in the mist and in there you see things coming out but those things are not actually there, not yet, or maybe they are, just hidden to the eye. You know that you have to go in that direction and you know that whatever is waiting for you at the end, or whatever is coming next is what you need, you know it’s right and you like what is there, but it’s not enough. Liking it and knowing it’s right simply isn’t enough of a reason to move forth… and then it happens, an invisible force pulls you back and you trip in your feet and fall, hurting and angry for no specific reason, but you just can’t find the willpower to go in the direction you need to go. It’s too heavy, too distant, too difficult, too unattainable… Until you hear an echo in the distance and that echo fills you with a weird warmth and without knowing why you start walking again and the invisible force that made you trip in your feet isn’t strong enough to make you fall again.
I am lucky enough to have heard that echo <3

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Cool stuff, I think I can see what you mean :)

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Originally Posted by wacey

Yeah I agree with most of this thread. I just like to point out that Fi and Fe are not two dichotomies "doing" different aspects of the same thing. It's not internal/external ethics. I'm not going to redefine them. I only want to say that ethicals, SFs, NFs, are all fully capable and competent in both styles of ethics.

Also want to point out that introverted feeling being described here as some sort of "structure" is ludicrous and I can only conclude that this point of view is created by Ti-valuing types. Introverted ethics in ego block's that value it is fluid, ever changeable informational element that can and does respond to the outside environment in dynamic and responsive ways.

Ethics (Fe/Fi) are not an either/or thing. It's both.

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Yeah but Fe will be in ID for Fi types no?

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Originally Posted by Kat

Hello everybody,
So… my life is pretty much full of EIEs lol

My father is an EIE-Ni (married to an LSI-Se <3 – mom) and I have a couple of friends EIE-Ni and EIE-Fe and hearing my mom’s complaints about dad and looking at them all I realized something really weird!
EIEs look (LOOK) unreliable… their Fe adaptability to the external environment makes them look (LOOK) as if they were changing their minds every two seconds (according to who is present).
It must be a tough life… it kinda looks (LOOKS) like they’re being pushed and pulled in every direction all the time emotionally speaking (no wonder they score constructivist in Reinin Dichotomies o.O ).
Another thing they look (LOOK) like is self-oriented and self-absorbed… like it’s their view or the external world, their idea of how it should be, their desired external environment, their position, their achievements.
Don’t get me wrong I don’t have anything against it, I just find it curious and it may explain why some people out there ostracize Fe leads.
So, EIEs and everybody else, ideas? Opinions?
I was pondering on Fi ignoring being translated into Fe needs

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I didn't realize you started this thread. My mom is LSI and my biological dad is EIE. Everything you wrote about EIE is what my aunt, and to a lesser extent my mom, told me about my dad growing up. He and my mom are friends again now but I still think she finds him sort of fickle, unreliable and self absorbed because he left her and moved back to Greece when my sister and I were still practically babies. She was left to take care of us alone.

That didn't sit well with her and she held a grudge against him for a long time but she can't stay mad at him when he focuses his attention on her. He makes her smile and even though I am sure she would never get back with him (because she loves my dead stepdad too much) I think she loves his attention and he has a way of lightening her up. I like her after one of their phone calls. She is relaxed and in a good mood. :cool:

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Originally Posted by Kat

EIEs look (LOOK) unreliable… their Fe adaptability to the external environment makes them look (LOOK) as if they were changing their minds every two seconds (according to who is present).
It must be a tough life… it kinda looks (LOOKS) like they’re being pushed and pulled in every direction all the time emotionally speaking (no wonder they score constructivist in Reinin Dichotomies o.O ).

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My explanation and adjustment is that the Fe relating is central part of the processing, understanding and ... relating for EIEs where for types where it plays less central role it is more exclusively for evaluating the conclusions. It being what they do they can do more of it and so won't be drained the same way someone else would. So not "tough" in that regard.
Also that swaying with subject/s reflecting processing as apposed to conclusions it does not imply swaying and not sticking with decisions. So does not necessarily reflect on reliability.

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Originally Posted by Kat

Another thing they look (LOOK) like is self-oriented and self-absorbed… like it’s their view or the external world, their idea of how it should be, their desired external environment, their position, their achievements.

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There is Se tint in this but also large amount of Fe base of which I am a beneficiary (general meaning) and so to provide the apologetics/appreciation. Fe is inherently subjective evaluation/value judgment. So in primarily Fe approach/analysis cannot possibly be asked not to be subjective and involving ones want and aspirations.
The quality of uninterrupted value judgments flowing to each-other is what the doctor ordered for Ti base because that involves endless interruptions of value judgment for objectivity causing to be backed up in emotional processes and possibly collecting a kind of cynicism in outlook.

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Originally Posted by Myst

Yeah but Fe will be in ID for Fi types no?

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The id, with us since birth.

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Originally Posted by wacey

Also want to point out that introverted feeling being described here as some sort of "structure" is ludicrous and I can only conclude that this point of view is created by Ti-valuing types. Introverted ethics in ego block's that value it is fluid, ever changeable informational element that can and does respond to the outside environment in dynamic and responsive ways.

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I guess you don't like the word and connotation, and it is great that rigidity is what you reasonably(I accept) denounce as applicable to yourself, but..
Fi is static in socionics. Ethics as in morality and proper ways of interactions between people is a set of principles you carry from one situation/conversation to another, possibly adjusting for future. That is a belief system/structure. Right and proper way introvertedly invisioned. Also "relationship" the hallmark of Fi is something you build/constructed to be steady and longlived ... constructs.
Fe more springs from and dynamically reacts to particular situation.

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Originally Posted by Esaman

I guess you don't like the word and connotation, and it is great that rigidity is what you reasonably(I accept) denounce as applicable to yourself, but..
Fi is static in socionics. Ethics as in morality and proper ways of interactions between people is a set of principles you carry from one situation/conversation to another, possibly adjusting for future. That is a belief system/structure. Right and proper way introvertedly invisioned. Also "relationship" the hallmark of Fi is something you build/constructed to be steady and longlived ... structures
Fe more springs from and dynamically reacts to particular situation.

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If you say so it seems you have already come to the conclusion. I'm not interested in persuading you.

@Aylen, we seem to have quite a bit in common ^_^

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Originally Posted by Kat

@Aylen, we seem to have quite a bit in common ^_^

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So much in common that the first day you joined I thought you were a troll account mocking me and some of my beliefs. :lol: I was caught up in some forum drama then so I was so happy and relieved to see your video and know you were real. :love: You had me at "imagination"... :hug:

awwww! that's such an adorable thing ^_^

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Originally Posted by wacey

The id, with us since birth.

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Yeah but what did you mean by "Introverted ethics in ego block's that value it is fluid, ever changeable informational element that can and does respond to the outside environment in dynamic and responsive ways."

What kind of "dynamic way"?

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Originally Posted by Words

What if they are dualised with an LSI who isn't reliable?

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That sounds like hell

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Originally Posted by golden

I think I see your point and could have rephrased that part to be more nuanced. I flipped those statements around very quickly because I was irritated. Reason being, I found your OP to be judgmental while disavowing judgmentality such as by using the word "looks" repeatedly.

For example, stating that Fe people are often ostracized, as if that's a matter of fact and particular to them as opposed to other people, is . . . questionable. :thinking: It doesn't fit my experience, at any rate.

Anyway.

I sometimes really like Fi people, and those I don't like I just hold at a distance. Things can go wrong if I'd rather stay away from an Fi person but through force of circumstance don't have that option.

A worst-case interpretation is like this:

Fi seems to see itself as highly stable and steady. But from the outside, it doesn't look like that to me. Instead it looks volatile.

Not adaptable to externals --> pushed and pulled instead according to internal convictions. The disconnection from external facts leads to self-contradiction. Such as claiming to value being harmonious with people, even while fostering disharmony without realizing it.

It looks like chaos to me. I can't know what to expect from the person. The driving forces are invisible and not derived from information I have access to. It doesn't match up with anything in my world.

Where I do support your language of "looks" is that there's really nothing personal in this disconnection. This is hardly a revelation, but Fe and Fi just don't have much use for each other. They cover the same territory, but using different navigational equipment. I suppose an Fe person might evaluate an Fi person according to what s/he is actually looking for, which is Ti.

Fe is a good compliment to Ti because Ti trades in internally formulated structures regarding reality but needs it warmed up and loosened up to connect with people as they are, messy and complicated and shifting. As for me, I'm always looking for something to cool down my boiling mess, and for ways to resolve ambiguity, and Ti is very helpful in that regard. Confront me with Fi and I'll get sunk in more and more complications.

I assume some of these dynamics exist on the Fi/Te side too.

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Yes I can see this because Fi types get moody and do not know how to express what is going on the inside with actual words. Like I may feel discontent that my SO decided to go to Costco when I wanted him to not go for whatever reason and when he returns instead of saying "I'm pretty upset that you went" I show moodiness or long "don't talk to me face" This is a "call" to speak with me to understand that I'm truly upset...but that I've found no way to change the situation in him or her or anyone else. So what must be done? How does one deal with a situation that they can't control other? Control is a disease...why would you want to control? Just do what you want.

I think ethical types can get along very easily and a lot of the communication differences can be overcome as long as everyone is communicating in good faith. I think toxic self-absorbed ethical types can make things very difficult (as one could imagine).

I related to everything Golden said above. I try to be accepting of Fi but in the end, I don't really want to think about it nor do I feel that I need to.

Over time I've learned to give people the chart and not blow up the em just cause they mess up. I used to only focus on the outcome of the action and not the sentiment of the person which is useful to me now. So instead of blowing up there are calm signal lights that show the schematic


Shit starts blowing up upon repeated offenses, and an insistence on them. Even then my "fuck you and goodbyes" are alot calmer these days. You can move pretty big mountains with very little push If you do it right. Thanks for your perspective.

Fe demonstrative might have something to do with my flexibility In that domain.

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Originally Posted by CptLandhawk

Over time I've learned to give people the chart and not blow up the em just cause they mess up. I used to only focus on the outcome of the action and not the sentiment of the person which is useful to me now. So instead of blowing up there are calm signal lights that show the schematic


Shit starts blowing up upon repeated offenses, and an insistence on them. Even then my "fuck you and goodbyes" are alot calmer these days. You can move pretty big mountains with very little push If you do it right. Thanks for your perspective.

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What typically causes you to "blow up"?

Very few things honestly. A lack of respect for my personal property or space is one. Though the blow up doesn't come from the situations themselves...but the number of times I have to enforce the boundary. Three strikes rule, upping the "force" every time. I think a "blow up" implies a loss of control, which isn't accurate. I just adjust the firmness to the occasion.

As for what will actually get me to erupt I'll keep to myself