INFj temper tantrums

It's not that what she messaged you was okay, but maybe it is really important for the man she is interested in to keep his word. It might not seem a big deal by your perspective, and it sounds like you were genuinely tired, but it sounds like she doesn't see it that way. I don't know how long your relationship with her has been, but it sounds like she was serious about you.

If anything, I would apologize for not calling her and try and make that up to her somehow if you're still interested in her.

it also seems like there are some rather difficult communication issues. probably if i were you i would try to find a straight forward way to resolve the misunderstanding, which would mean meeting in person because text message communication is terrible in these situations, and over the phone isn't the best either. i would just tell her i don't understand what's wrong but would really like to, and would like to arrange a time (and i will be there!) and talk about it.

i would apologize for not doing what i said i would too. i mean it *is* kind of a red flag if someone blows you off even if they give their reasons, and it doesn't seem like you're very close (?) & if you think about it, time and follow-through on actions communicates more to the other person than words when you aren't close and don't really know/understand one another that well.

since i would want to set up a time i can actually make, it wouldn't have to be immediately (within the week though) and i would arrange whatever else i'm doing so i will be sure to make it (as in obviously i need to not stay up all night, the night before - and if i lose sleep despite my intentions, too bad, because i *can't* not follow through twice in a row as i'll lose all credibility).

if she's not amenable to working it out and doesn't have an alternative way, there just isn't much you can do, so that's that. you could just um show up i suppose, which could go wonderfully or terribly.

if she really is crazy, well, i don't know. i can tolerate a lot of craziness from people i care about. but i'm not likely to put much effort into a random person screaming at me or abusing me, other than plotting my escape course. but i don't really understand this situation because you said you've been with her before, yet there seems to be such a chasm with the communication.

the only person who can truly tell you what's going on with her, is her: she's the source of your answers, if there's a way through this weird sounding interpersonal/communication blunder.

(if we can actually talk in person, that would be when i would bring up how i felt about the way she treated me... but i would wait until i understood her situation *before* i went there, as i would want to understand first because that will help me frame what i will say... for instance, some of my negative feelings might fall away after i understand her point of view, and i *am* the more sane of the two of us apparently, so i can afford to wait.)

also i'm assuming you have not met in person yet, or even spoken on the phone since the last time and that all of the communication is through text messages. if that is not the case, a lot of this doesn't apply as well.

ps. i would make a good chunk of time for this talk, not half an hour or something that doesn't allow us enough time to work it out. oh and also, since i do think this may be a time sensitive matter (within the week), i would be willing to compromise on my schedule if she can't make my most convenient times.

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Originally Posted by Bluebird

-------> Maybe this is what's going in her head.

I suggest that you give it time to sizzle down. After that, be more careful in making plans or promises unless you are positive you can keep them, especially with her.

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what Bluebird just said is what i thought the first time... but also, if i screamed at someone to never talk to me again (which i have *never* done before) that means i'm at the end of my rope. fix it now, or get out of my life. so i don't think i'd want them to wait for me to calm down, but to fix it now. really if they can't fix it within the week, then they're obviously a total asshole (at least to me) and to continue on would be foolish and cost my sanity.

on the other hand, i have a friend who's really spazzy with time, but i know him well and i can translate his um "time commitments" into what they really mean. and i understand what he's doing with his time (which is trying to shove way too much into his schedule than fits in it), and how time-scattered he is. but it's also not a dating thing.

i just really don't know which case is Airman's case.

@Airman, if I'm investing in someone, their follow through is very important to me. Very. I've gotten "irrationally" upset at people who, after I've put my emotional energy into them, act in ways that disrespect what I've invested. Even something as simple as falling asleep on me in the middle of an IM conversation (that really bothers me). One offense I can usually handle, maybe two. But when it starts repeating... things build up to an explosive point.

I've only unfriended two people on FB - one is just plain crazy and the other was an LSE who repeatedly let me down and who still doesn't quite get the concept of follow through and valuing my time.

A REALLY easy way to prevent me from feeling abandoned and put down is to tell me directly what to expect. If you can't make a meeting or you need to go or something comes up, TELL ME. Text message is fine. I'd rather be woken up by a midnight ping with an explanation than feel the alternatives.

The way you fix it, for me anyway, is to apologize very specifically (not just "I'm sorry you feel bad") and perhaps even ask me what I'm feeling and why. And LISTEN, for goodness sake. Don't interrupt, don't try to "fix" me, don't make excuses. Someone who listens, actively, is disarming. Then don't abandon me again and make active, obvious efforts in the opposite direction. It, admittedly, takes a lot of effort to undo something like this.

That said, you need to set healthy boundaries for how you expect to be treated, too. You are a valuable human being, with your own heart and needs. You need respect and kindness, too. At some point, maybe not right away but don't wait too long either, gently and matter-of-factly explain how you feel, specifically as it relates to how she responded. Say exactly what you said here, that it puts you off, hurts you, and makes you not want to pursue her, and anything else that you might feel. Then perhaps describe how she might better communicate her hurt.

It's OK and NORMAL that you feel hurt by her response.

If you don't set boundaries, gently and firmly, then that sort of relational pendulum that you're starting to describe with her father vs. you can quickly get damaging.

This sounds like it might be a long-term puzzle, filled with hurt but also lots of potential joys. You're going to need lots of patience and probably other sources of life/joy in addition to this relationship (to stabilize you when things inevitably get rough). And, um, by "other sources of joy" I don't mean other women... I mean, like other hobbies and activities. ;)

Please take all this and translate it into Brazilian culture as needed. :)

Well it does seem like she's at the end of her rope with me, or maybe she already let go of the rope yesterday by the messages and by blocking me on facebook after she wrote all those terrible things. One thing I have to consider here is that in our first meeting she was sick and still she went to the cafe to see me. She definitely has/had serious feelings about me. But I'm really in a complicated situation where:

1) I've put an end to a relationship with a wonderful but unfortunately alcoholic woman who was going real bad for the two of us whenever we were not having sex.

2) I just moved to a different city which is where this EII girl lives. We were together here for something like 2 weeks in 2012. Then I had to go back to my home city and it was over. And she was not and still is not an easy person to deal with. She's very very moody and unstable.

3) I have priorities which do not include having a serious long term relationship right now. I need to buy me a car, I need to work a lot, and I'm doing my best, because then I'll have the necessary structure to have a long relationship. Plus I just went out of one that didn't work and I'm very cautious about relating to women now. I see a relationship as a total necessity but it can be dangerous.

So considering all this, she expected me to have a typical manly attitude of just showing up there tired or whatever, but I cannot afford to put my health, my well-being on the line because of a woman whom I'm really skeptical about things working out fine between us in the medium-to-long run. I didn't act this way she expected and will not. She lives on the opposite side of the city, it's a huge city. I could show up if she lived nearer, but I won't go great lengths for someone who has no respect for me. Perhaps it's just best to let her go. I've been seeing another woman and at the moment I'm not really into for something serious, unless it happens naturally. With a person who cannot understand the other being busy, working, and tired, a relationship becomes a dependence rather than a healthy thing. So it's best to just let her go her course and invest my time in my priorities, I feel a bit sad for this but nothing lasts forever. It probably wouldn't work well if we tried, so it's better to stop here than to hurt ourselves even more.

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Originally Posted by Minde

@Airman, if I'm investing in someone, their follow through is very important to me. Very. I've gotten "irrationally" upset at people who, after I've put my emotional energy into them, act in ways that disrespect what I've invested. Even something as simple as falling asleep on me in the middle of an IM conversation (that really bothers me). One offense I can usually handle, maybe two. But when it starts repeating... things build up to an explosive point.

I've only unfriended two people on FB - one is just plain crazy and the other was an LSE who repeatedly let me down and who still doesn't quite get the concept of follow through and valuing my time.

A REALLY easy way to prevent me from feeling abandoned and put down is to tell me directly what to expect. If you can't make a meeting or you need to go or something comes up, TELL ME. Text message is fine. I'd rather be woken up by a midnight ping with an explanation than feel the alternatives.

The way you fix it, for me anyway, is to apologize very specifically (not just "I'm sorry you feel bad") and perhaps even ask me what I'm feeling and why. And LISTEN, for goodness sake. Don't interrupt, don't try to "fix" me, don't make excuses. Someone who listens, actively, is disarming. Then don't abandon me again and make active, obvious efforts in the opposite direction. It, admittedly, takes a lot of effort to undo something like this.

That said, you need to set healthy boundaries for how you expect to be treated, too. You are a valuable human being, with your own heart and needs. You need respect and kindness, too. At some point, maybe not right away but don't wait too long either, gently and matter-of-factly explain how you feel, specifically as it relates to how she responded. Say exactly what you said here, that it puts you off, hurts you, and makes you not want to pursue her, and anything else that you might feel. Then perhaps describe how she might better communicate her hurt.

It's OK and NORMAL that you feel hurt by her response.

If you don't set boundaries, gently and firmly, then that sort of relational pendulum that you're starting to describe with her father vs. you can quickly get damaging.

This sounds like it might be a long-term puzzle, filled with hurt but also lots of potential joys. You're going to need lots of patience and probably other sources of life/joy in addition to this relationship (to stabilize you when things inevitably get rough). And, um, by "other sources of joy" I don't mean other women... I mean, like other hobbies and activities. ;)

Please take all this and translate it into Brazilian culture as needed. :)

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Thanks for the advice. I'll see what happens. But somehow she did really hurt me and I just don't feel like talking to her anytime soon. I'm so polite and respectful so I always expect the same from a woman.

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Originally Posted by Airman

Thanks for the advice. I'll see what happens. But somehow she did really hurt me and I just don't feel like talking to her anytime soon. I'm so polite and respectful so I always expect the same from a woman.

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That's good. If you don't take care that you are a whole person, you won't have much to give away. Different people have different ideas of what's polite and helpful (obviously, or what would be the point of typology), but if she's telling you to go away, you're being polite by doing so. And you're giving yourself space to heal.

:hug: to you (in a non-romantic way!)

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Originally Posted by Airman

The following just happened:

I only slept 3 hours last night. I went to sleep by 3AM and got up full of energy by 6AM. Then I began to feel very tired by 9-10AM but still unable to sleep as of now (3:15PM here).

The EII who had a short relationship with me phoned me yesterday night. I was busy doing business in a hotel downtown, around 8PM when she called me. Still I asked for their pardon, got off from the table and talked to her for eight minutes. She wanted to see me desperately. I told her we could see each other today. I said I'd phone her back by 9PM but the meeting went until 9:30 and I got home by 10PM. So I didn't phone her because I was exhausted. Still I couldn't sleep.

Today she calls me and says 'ok what time do we meet?' and I say 'look I didn't sleep this night, I slept 3 hours only so I have to rest. You know my feelings for you, but I'm very much unable to have some conversation I'm feeling too tired.' She says 'ok' and ends the call. Then she comes with messages using caps lock like NEVER TALK TO ME AGAIN!!!! WHAT THE FUCK IS YOUR PROBLEM????? very very sharp words directed at me.

I have observed EII females often have this sort of quasi-psychotic episode when their will is not satisfied. Is it because of a very childish ego-centered personality or is it due to something else?
:thinking:

edit: right now she just said I'm a retard and I'm useless and said 'get off from my life' then blocked me on messages. LOL what the f--- is this? I see sometimes EIIs are completely insane.

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Originally Posted by Airman

Well it does seem like she's at the end of her rope with me, or maybe she already let go of the rope yesterday by the messages and by blocking me on facebook after she wrote all those terrible things. One thing I have to consider here is that in our first meeting she was sick and still she went to the cafe to see me. She definitely has/had serious feelings about me. But I'm really in a complicated situation where:

1) I've put an end to a relationship with a wonderful but unfortunately alcoholic woman who was going real bad for the two of us whenever we were not having sex.

2) I just moved to a different city which is where this EII girl lives. We were together here for something like 2 weeks in 2012. Then I had to go back to my home city and it was over. And she was not and still is not an easy person to deal with. She's very very moody and unstable.

3) I have priorities which do not include having a serious long term relationship right now. I need to buy me a car, I need to work a lot, and I'm doing my best, because then I'll have the necessary structure to have a long relationship. Plus I just went out of one that didn't work and I'm very cautious about relating to women now. I see a relationship as a total necessity but it can be dangerous.

So considering all this, she expected me to have a typical manly attitude of just showing up there tired or whatever, but I cannot afford to put my health, my well-being on the line because of a woman whom I'm really skeptical about things working out fine between us in the medium-to-long run. I didn't act this way she expected and will not. She lives on the opposite side of the city, it's a huge city. I could show up if she lived nearer, but I won't go great lengths for someone who has no respect for me. Perhaps it's just best to let her go. I've been seeing another woman and at the moment I'm not really into for something serious, unless it happens naturally. With a person who cannot understand the other being busy, working, and tired, a relationship becomes a dependence rather than a healthy thing. So it's best to just let her go her course and invest my time in my priorities, I feel a bit sad for this but nothing lasts forever. It probably wouldn't work well if we tried, so it's better to stop here than to hurt ourselves even more.

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sounds like possibly a manifestation of a personality disorder. When behavior is not making sense, like this, that's probably what it is....

consider this person good riddance, and be thankful that they did you a favor and took themselves out of your life, instead of you trying to get away from them. Dont spend another minute stressing out over it or overanalyzing... people with personality disorders can be very manipulative in exactly this way and are hell to be around.

ah man.. You are the male verison of marista if there ever was one. (Except I doubt she'd string the ladies along).

Thanks for the :hug: Minde. I wouldn't take it romantically coming from someone I don't know in vivo, lol.
It seems to me that the thing about her is very much related to a personality disorder as Suz pointed out. I think she's got Borderline Disorder if I would stick the personality disorder label onto her. And yes it's better to just let this go, after all she's more of a problem than a good nice person to be with. All we had in the past was this amazing chemistry. But can chemistry alone sustain a relationship? IME this doesn't last, and people may have this wonderful touch-and-sex chemistry but this is just such a tiny bit of what a relationship is. And in the meantime if you can't have a conversation, you can't have a sharing of ideas and of life, it gets boring and terribly so for me. This is how my last relationship was. I don't want to repeat unhealthy patterns.
Thanks for the help you've been all of such great help.

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Originally Posted by Airman

So considering all this, she expected me to have a typical manly attitude of just showing up there tired or whatever, but I cannot afford to put my health, my well-being on the line because of a woman whom I'm really skeptical about things working out fine between us in the medium-to-long run. I didn't act this way she expected and will not. She lives on the opposite side of the city, it's a huge city.

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it seems like that wasn't a great time for you--not the evening of the phone call, or the next day. i don't know if you felt like you had to try to get together quickly (the next day) to meet some sort of expectation, or if she seemed to be insisting on meeting so soon? i just wonder if a bit of this could have been avoided by suggesting a later time (like in a few days, or a week, or?) when you know you're available (and have time to sleep).

to elaborate on what i said earlier about it being too bad if i miss sleep, i meant that in the context of having made a time commitment in the first place. i'll sacrifice to keep these things when i must (and i don't consider it being manly really, as i'm not a man, but more that i said i would and it might hurt the other person if i don't follow through or create a problem between us that i can't solve, which i really don't want). but that's why i'm careful about the commitments i do make.

although with my time-spazzy friend i mentioned earlier i can totally be flaky myself too sometimes because we both know it doesn't mean anything. but last week i agreed to use my place for a "get together" that same evening, and a couple hours later i began feeling i wasn't really up to it, but i didn't go back on that and just dealt with it because it was too late to turn it around. it would have been an awful thing to do him, because i knew by that time he had invited others. there was no going back. so that was a commitment i had to keep. and he would have rightfully been pissed at me had i tried to go back on it.


i've been really incriminating in my posts, and i think that wasn't right of me.

Actually there was no commitment to see her on sunday on my part. I said I would do what I could. She took that for my word. She's quite unstable a person. Like I mentioned I really don't feel like being with a woman who's too emotionally unstable especially if there is already a sort of deep-rooted feeling from the past, which could cause us both more harm than good.

And inumbra I don't know but I think you were assuming some things which you then saw weren't quite as you had assumed, then you realised you were somewhat incriminating. It doesn't matter to me, I just try to take the good of what people write and say and leave the bad for themselves. Of course sometimes it is not possible as in this case where being offended by this girl I couldn't just be totally careless about it because there is a bond between us but then again I already let this go by now and I'm quite sure I'm doing the right thing by letting her go and follow separate courses as this would be a risky relationship, lots of emotions involved and both not trusting each other... There's no way this could work out.

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Originally Posted by Airman

The following just happened:

I only slept 3 hours last night. I went to sleep by 3AM and got up full of energy by 6AM. Then I began to feel very tired by 9-10AM but still unable to sleep as of now (3:15PM here).

The EII who had a short relationship with me phoned me yesterday night. I was busy doing business in a hotel downtown, around 8PM when she called me. Still I asked for their pardon, got off from the table and talked to her for eight minutes. She wanted to see me desperately. I told her we could see each other today. I said I'd phone her back by 9PM but the meeting went until 9:30 and I got home by 10PM. So I didn't phone her because I was exhausted. Still I couldn't sleep.

Today she calls me and says 'ok what time do we meet?' and I say 'look I didn't sleep this night, I slept 3 hours only so I have to rest. You know my feelings for you, but I'm very much unable to have some conversation I'm feeling too tired.' She says 'ok' and ends the call. Then she comes with messages using caps lock like NEVER TALK TO ME AGAIN!!!! WHAT THE FUCK IS YOUR PROBLEM????? very very sharp words directed at me.

I have observed EII females often have this sort of quasi-psychotic episode when their will is not satisfied. Is it because of a very childish ego-centered personality or is it due to something else?
:thinking:

edit: right now she just said I'm a retard and I'm useless and said 'get off from my life' then blocked me on messages. LOL what the f--- is this? I see sometimes EIIs are completely insane.

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Do you see a common denominator, all these other people or you

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Originally Posted by Words

Do you see a common denominator, all these other people or you

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No. My will is constantly not done, frustrated, and I don't get all mad about it. I used to. But no more. Life's harsh. I grew up. With great strength I endured the pain and the suffering and so much b.s. that came by. And I still stand. A little more patient though. No point in what you wrote.

Look, I'm reaching here and this is just a really short answer:

EII have a hard time, especially in the very beginning, if she doesn't KNOW you, to trust that what you are telling her is true. To trust that you are being honest, that she is important, but that in fact you truly are tired and cannot handle talking to her, nor seeing her right now. EII need to know this, and if she is undualized then she does not realize that for the most part, when an LSE says something, there is no hidden meaning, no half baked truth, they are being sincere. They really do mean what they say, unlike other sociotypes who rely on clever interpretation from their partners. "I'm tired, I could not phone you, and this is the reason why...even though I said we would meet up". She doesn't realize that she can understand, and that in doing so, her trust is a great gift to you, because this activates you instead of shutting you down. Its classic.

What you could do is keep being a stand up guy, eventually, and with enough contact, if she is EII, she will see that what you say is what you mean, and her neurotic fears will abate. She will know what to expect from you, because you are consistent.

Right now, she can't understand this about herself and about you.

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Originally Posted by Airman

No. My will is constantly not done, frustrated, and I don't get all mad about it. I used to. But no more. Life's harsh. I grew up. With great strength I endured the pain and the suffering and so much b.s. that came by. And I still stand. A little more patient though. No point in what you wrote.

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If you can't see that you are pissing off all these different people IRL then how can anything change?

Unless you think it is just EIIs which is odd to me.

Also interesting how every post I've read here is directed towards you changing your behaviour.

I'm saying exactly the same thing, without pandering to your ego.

Seeing your ego needs pandered to is confirmation for me why these people are pissed off with you, as I'd be the same myself. I'd recommend you take less babying to be handled.

If some love interest was telling me they'd phone me then don't, they'll meet me then don't, then think it's my fault on top, I'd dump their ass.

Would no one else do the same? @wacey @inumbra @Suz or however else that's posted?

sounds like you're trivializing her feelings and generally being negligent and disrespectful of her time and emotional investment in you. i don't really see what you have a problem with.

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Originally Posted by Minde

I've only unfriended two people on FB - one is just plain crazy and the other was an LSE who repeatedly let me down and who still doesn't quite get the concept of follow through and valuing my time.

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LSEs and relationship problems... From my experience some LSEs don't get the point when someone is there for them for just a brief time. "Here's the time we have together, it's not much. You'd like to stick to your usual business, well guess what, you wanted me here so we're both going to change our ways just a little so we can make this time special together. It's not something we always do, just do it." And they always have disassociative issues with this. I think with :Ni:-PoLR, LSEs tend to picture the current situation staying the same and never changing, so when something situational comes up, like "hey I'm here now, we can do things" their weak :Fi: cannot interpret the fact that all this time that person has waited just to see them, may have some intenser feelings built up, and their schedule is only being interrupted for a short amount of time. Things aren't "going to be this way forever." Put an LSE in a setting where he/she can expect predictable results over and over and live with them. They don't understand the word "temporary," "this is just temporary." If it doesn't fit the usual bill, then they insensitively can just discard it, and that's the main reason ime they want to break out of relationships.

From my experience, LSEs need to communicate with their dual if they want relational success. LSEs: ask the EII. :doh: I tell you, some LSEs can be too shortsighted and simple and will come to the conclusion that their EII duals' answer is final, when the question they asked was extremely simple or rushed, or that the EII just doesn't know, that they're being "unclear." Well, there is a lot more going on with the EII than you realize, as with all introverts there is lots of information: the access of that information is more difficult. With weak :Te: you can't expect them to be clear when :Fi: as an introverted function is an unclear, often emotionally taxing, process and takes time to seed through and make sense of. That's why you're there, to help her make objective sense of her feelings. Get it? Duality. It's a complete relationship. :Te: is the logical answer to her problems. So I'll make it as simple as it gets for you: Fi is your dual's dominant function, that's why you need to stay attuned to it, ask good questions, and not settle on quick, cheap answers, like the ones you'll find here. She's there for a reason, she has a mouth, so you guys can help each other out. "Get it? It's a relationship." I think that' needs to be the catchphrase for LSE relations 101.

To the introvert, the extrovert is fast-paced and exciting. For the extrovert, it takes patience. But as all extroverts do, LSEs don't realize that they need :Fi: to help them balance their identity and shadow type, so they need to make the extra effort, which then becomes mental. Introverts realize it all the time because it's a clear weakness, but the effort is moreso physical or potential. LSE, you should help her clarify her problems, not presume you know the :Fi: or that the :Fi: doesn't exist underneath the quiet exterior. Yeah... it takes more time than the extrovert is used to. Sometimes the EII can seem like a waste of space. So to ease your duality for an extrovert, short answer: you have to make the mental effort, be communicative, constructive, and patient. The minute you stop doing that you're going to have problems. For introverts to ease their duality, they need to make the physical effort, to do the work work, less thought and talk, more response. Don't flop around dead-seeming all the time, be a person.

It's notalways going to stay that way. That's what I'm getting at with LSEs. When something is wrong with someone, LSEs, it's "temporary." Remember that word, "temporary." You have to help her past it because she needs your :Te:, advice and support. No matter if it's intense for very brief periods, it's not permanent. The rhythm of the introvert just takes more time to get into adaptive, sensible change and motion. Whatever problem she's having is not a permanent reality. This rage she's having is just her outlet for bad communication and it's being expressed, and for an introvert that's completely normal. It's a simple emotion, it probably has little to do with the deeper problem, and if she said she's sorry about it and you believe she wants to work past it, you just have to stay constructive and get deeper into communication with her and figure out what's going on. The looks and the actions are deceiving... you're dealing with an introvert, therefore you have to communicate not judge based on certainties. I think this will confuse any newcomer to duality but you'll find it to be true.

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Originally Posted by Words

If some love interest was telling me they'd phone me then don't, they'll meet me then don't, then think it's my fault on top, I'd dump their ass.

Would no one else do the same? @wacey @inumbra @Suz or however else that's posted?

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Depends. And that was kind of what I was alluding to in my earlier post. When a person says they will do something, the only way to build trust is to do it. Otherwise, it does start to come across as flakiness.

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Originally Posted by Words

If some love interest was telling me they'd phone me then don't, they'll meet me then don't, then think it's my fault on top, I'd dump their ass.

Would no one else do the same? @wacey @inumbra @Suz or however else that's posted?

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Well sure, if it's a recurring thing, sure... i wouldn't put up with that. It would also make me feel that they're just not that into me, which there's no point in wasting time with them if that's the case.
But i dont think i would react so explosively though. I'd just sort of cut off contact and move on.

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Originally Posted by Words

If you can't see that you are pissing off all these different people IRL then how can anything change?

Unless you think it is just EIIs which is odd to me.

Also interesting how every post I've read here is directed towards you changing your behaviour.

I'm saying exactly the same thing, without pandering to your ego.

Seeing your ego needs pandered to is confirmation for me why these people are pissed off with you, as I'd be the same myself. I'd recommend you take less babying to be handled.

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It's funny an SLE giving psychological advice. I can't take it seriously really. You don't know sh=t about human relations.

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Originally Posted by Airman

It's funny an SLE giving psychological advice. I can't take it seriously really. You don't know sh=t about human relations.

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Anyone can see a dysfunctional individual, SLE or EII, you are attacking a person and ignoring what they say or feel. This reflects on your relationships. Maybe I will speak to you later.

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Originally Posted by Person

LSEs and relationship problems... From my experience some LSEs don't get the point when someone is there for them for just a brief time. "Here's the time we have together, it's not much. You'd like to stick to your usual business, well guess what, you wanted me here so we're both going to change our ways just a little so we can make this time special together. It's not something we always do, just do it." And they always have disassociative issues with this. I think with :Ni:-PoLR, LSEs tend to picture the current situation staying the same and never changing, so when something situational comes up, like "hey I'm here now, we can do things" their weak :Fi: cannot interpret the fact that all this time that person has waited just to see them, may have some intenser feelings built up, and their schedule is only being interrupted for a short amount of time. Things aren't "going to be this way forever." Put an LSE in a setting where he/she can expect predictable results over and over and live with them. They don't understand the word "temporary," "this is just temporary." If it doesn't fit the usual bill, then they insensitively can just discard it, and that's the main reason ime they want to break out of relationships.

From my experience, LSEs need to communicate with their dual if they want relational success. LSEs: ask the EII. :doh: I tell you, some LSEs can be too shortsighted and simple and will come to the conclusion that their EII duals' answer is final, when the question they asked was extremely simple or rushed, or that the EII just doesn't know, that they're being "unclear." Well, there is a lot more going on with the EII than you realize, as with all introverts there is lots of information: the access of that information is more difficult. With weak :Te: you can't expect them to be clear when :Fi: as an introverted function is an unclear, often emotionally taxing, process and takes time to seed through and make sense of. That's why you're there, to help her make objective sense of her feelings. Get it? Duality. It's a complete relationship. :Te: is the logical answer to her problems. So I'll make it as simple as it gets for you: Fi is your dual's dominant function, that's why you need to stay attuned to it, ask good questions, and not settle on quick, cheap answers, like the ones you'll find here. She's there for a reason, she has a mouth, so you guys can help each other out. "Get it? It's a relationship." I think that' needs to be the catchphrase for LSE relations 101.

To the introvert, the extrovert is fast-paced and exciting. For the extrovert, it takes patience. But as all extroverts do, LSEs don't realize that they need :Fi: to help them balance their identity and shadow type, so they need to make the extra effort, which then becomes mental. Introverts realize it all the time because it's a clear weakness, but the effort is moreso physical or potential. LSE, you should help her clarify her problems, not presume you know the :Fi: or that the :Fi: doesn't exist underneath the quiet exterior. Yeah... it takes more time than the extrovert is used to. Sometimes the EII can seem like a waste of space. So to ease your duality for an extrovert, short answer: you have to make the mental effort, be communicative, constructive, and patient. The minute you stop doing that you're going to have problems. For introverts to ease their duality, they need to make the physical effort, to do the work work, less thought and talk, more response. Don't flop around dead-seeming all the time, be a person.

It's notalways going to stay that way. That's what I'm getting at with LSEs. When something is wrong with someone, LSEs, it's "temporary." Remember that word, "temporary." You have to help her past it because she needs your :Te:, advice and support. No matter if it's intense for very brief periods, it's not permanent. The rhythm of the introvert just takes more time to get into adaptive, sensible change and motion. Whatever problem she's having is not a permanent reality. This rage she's having is just her outlet for bad communication and it's being expressed, and for an introvert that's completely normal. It's a simple emotion, it probably has little to do with the deeper problem, and if she said she's sorry about it and you believe she wants to work past it, you just have to stay constructive and get deeper into communication with her and figure out what's going on. The looks and the actions are deceiving... you're dealing with an introvert, therefore you have to communicate not judge based on certainties. I think this will confuse any newcomer to duality but you'll find it to be true.

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That's a decent piece of advice. But a few questions: how long will it take for her to get back into 'normal mode' again? Can I expect that a strategy based on present distancing and approaching her again in the near future (say next 2 weeks) is going to work? Because I'm doing this. Right now not talking to her. In a few weeks time she'll be more settled down then we can talk and I really think she won't insult me again. But this period of time is very hard for me to tell. I can't read people's minds. I'm going for anything between 10 to 20 days and then phone her to see what happens. I think she needs TIME to work these feelings of rage by herself and most likely they disappear over a period of time, ime with EIIs, they don't END a relationship just like that, pluff. They can even try to, but their rage doesn't last and their heart eventually wins over them. Am I wrong here?

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Originally Posted by Words

Anyone can see a dysfunctional individual, SLE or EII, you are attacking a person and ignoring what they say or feel. This reflects on your relationships. Maybe I will speak to you later.

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Read your eariler post here and you'll see it was a total brute force attack against me. You may say things, but you have to say them more politely. Even if you think you have a point, being so blunt and aggressive will make me ignore whatever you write.

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Originally Posted by Airman

Actually there was no commitment to see her on sunday on my part. I said I would do what I could. She took that for my word.

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it does sound like a time commitment though:

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She wanted to see me desperately. I told her we could see each other today. I said I'd phone her back by 9PM but the meeting went until 9:30 and I got home by 10PM. So I didn't phone her because I was exhausted. Still I couldn't sleep.

Today she calls me and says 'ok what time do we meet?' and I say 'look I didn't sleep this night, I slept 3 hours only so I have to rest. You know my feelings for you, but I'm very much unable to have some conversation I'm feeling too tired.'

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day 1 at work: you tell her, "we can meet today. i'll call you by 9." (you don't call, or text, or meet that day/night)
day 2: *despite* what happened last night, which implies understanding your situation with work, she calls and asks when you can meet today. you respond that you cannot.

(*and* as previously mentioned, this is the same person who met with you earlier when she didn't want to/wasn't up for it/was sick. so she did it for you.)

then she gets really upset about this, but you ask *us* why, while to you she remains an unstable mysterious person, whose depths you cannot know.

see 20:20-22:30 :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyTaE91T7Ws

i'm glad, i think, that you're considering trying to work it out. i really think you both need to develop your communication and understanding of one another.

Yes inumbra you summed up a few things I could've done better. First, not to tell her we could meet on sunday. Second, phone her even dead tired after the business meeting on saturday night. Last, to make a clear decision on my part whether I would see her or not and tell her that on saturday night. My mistakes are obvious. But her violent ramping for this small thing... I don't know was the world going to end on sunday night? Couldn't she wait? I guess as an E6 I wanted to test her feelings for me, as I was and still am unsure of them. If she really liked me she would be more patient. This is how I act when I really like a woman, and I expected the same of her. But these 'tests' are really not good, they're based on the basic doubt of an E6. Problem is I'm quite sure when there are no feelings involved, but when there are feelings of this sort I tend to test the girl before. And sometimes it works. But it's a basic neurosis of any E6, this testing people over and over to confirm their feelings and their loyalty. Add to that the 'unchanging' view of Ni-PoLR and there it is... the feelings if they're true, don't change easily. Actually this state of permanency I see things and people is quite the contrary of reality. Buddhism helps me to understand more because they're always saying 'everything is impermanent'. But my tendency is to see things as lasting forever and people not changing their feelings for each other easily, imo emotional bonds are like diamonds so they should be pretty much unchanged over time unless there is a serious episode, and I mean really serious.
edit: read Person's post above for his very clarifying explanation of Ni PoLR and this view of things and people as static, unchanging.

Notice how he continues to big himself up, his "business meeting" while trivialising the others concern, "this small thing"

Dismiss her, "E6"

If she liked me she would please me better: "be more patient"

He "See's things lasting forever", " unchanging "

Everything points to NPD.

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Originally Posted by Airman

That's a decent piece of advice. But a few questions: how long will it take for her to get back into 'normal mode' again? Can I expect that a strategy based on present distancing and approaching her again in the near future (say next 2 weeks) is going to work? Because I'm doing this. Right now not talking to her. In a few weeks time she'll be more settled down then we can talk and I really think she won't insult me again. But this period of time is very hard for me to tell. I can't read people's minds. I'm going for anything between 10 to 20 days and then phone her to see what happens. I think she needs TIME to work these feelings of rage by herself and most likely they disappear over a period of time, ime with EIIs, they don't END a relationship just like that, pluff. They can even try to, but their rage doesn't last and their heart eventually wins over them. Am I wrong here?

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Don't wait, the sooner the better. The longer you wait, the longer she has to talk to you *in her mind* which will make her think all kinds of things and make her state worse (-Ne). Better just clear the air ASAP.

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Originally Posted by Airman

Yes inumbra you summed up a few things I could've done better. First, not to tell her we could meet on sunday. Second, phone her even dead tired after the business meeting on saturday night. Last, to make a clear decision on my part whether I would see her or not and tell her that on saturday night. My mistakes are obvious. But her violent ramping for this small thing... I don't know was the world going to end on sunday night? Couldn't she wait? I guess as an E6 I wanted to test her feelings for me, as I was and still am unsure of them. If she really liked me she would be more patient. This is how I act when I really like a woman, and I expected the same of her. But these 'tests' are really not good, they're based on the basic doubt of an E6. Problem is I'm quite sure when there are no feelings involved, but when there are feelings of this sort I tend to test the girl before. And sometimes it works. But it's a basic neurosis of any E6, this testing people over and over to confirm their feelings and their loyalty. Add to that the 'unchanging' view of Ni-PoLR and there it is... the feelings if they're true, don't change easily. Actually this state of permanency I see things and people is quite the contrary of reality. Buddhism helps me to understand more because they're always saying 'everything is impermanent'. But my tendency is to see things as lasting forever and people not changing their feelings for each other easily, imo emotional bonds are like diamonds so they should be pretty much unchanged over time unless there is a serious episode, and I mean really serious.
edit: read Person's post above for his very clarifying explanation of Ni PoLR and this view of things and people as static, unchanging.

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She can't wait, because you have given her no reason to trust you. The whole "actions speak louder then words" thing is going on here. Even if you had a legitimate excuse, you have still technically ditched on her twice. Instead of getting worked up over her reaction (which is equal to her feelings for you, or at the very least the "ideal you"), go and talk to her, convince her of what happened. Only that will improve this situation. What will not improve things is "giving her space". She is not a man, dude. Women do not need space, they need comfort. Or better yet, comforting, not by her girlfriends, not by her family, but by you.

Unless..... you don't really at this time want to have something with her. If this is the case, let her know : "look, I have nothing to offer you right now, like you need". This gets you off the hook, cause you have told her where things stand with you.

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Originally Posted by Words

Notice how he continues to big himself up, his "business meeting" while trivialising the others concern, "this small thing"

Dismiss her, "E6"

If she liked me she would please me better: "be more patient"

He "See's things lasting forever", " unchanging "

Everything points to NPD.

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I liked everything EXCEPT the conclusion you made. He just like the majority of guys out there.

It sounds like you might kinda stink at communicating to people in the moment.

I think most people like to know that they are valued- including their time. And that is shown through honest communication.

You've said plenty here that I'm sure would have cleared up a lot of assumptions and discrepancies had it been said to her instead.

Now this person Words is attacking me openly. First it was covert, it was like he/she really did mean some good advice. How fun it is to watch this.
edit: since this thread is on DELTA QUADRA, what do you think about getting out of here and back to BETA QUADRA if you're going to seek some sort of delusional virtual conflict with me here? I'm not getting into this. Really. Just go out or stop attacking. Where are the moderators of this forum? where's hkkmr? Is this a jungle now?

Two big things. One, EIIs tend to project, a lot, and be fairly blind to it. Second, EIIs can be extremely intolerant of others' feelings when THEY are unhappy. This is generally behavior I would associate with a really young, immature EII though. I've done this (though not to the extent that this girl did) and I've had it done to me, lol. Either way, if she can't consider your feelings, she may not be worth your time.

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Originally Posted by Emmym

Two big things. One, EIIs tend to project, a lot, and be fairly blind to it. Second, EIIs can be extremely intolerant of others' feelings when THEY are unhappy. This is generally behavior I would associate with a really young, immature EII though. I've done this (though not to the extent that this girl did) and I've had it done to me, lol. Either way, if she can't consider your feelings, she may not be worth your time.

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Nice candid analysis.

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Originally Posted by Airman

Now this person Words is attacking me openly. First it was covert, it was like he/she really did mean some good advice. How fun it is to watch this.
edit: since this thread is on DELTA QUADRA, what do you think about getting out of here and back to BETA QUADRA if you're going to seek some sort of delusional virtual conflict with me here? I'm not getting into this. Really. Just go out or stop attacking. Where are the moderators of this forum? where's hkkmr? Is this a jungle now?

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It should be more of a jungle. Buckle up and adapt.

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Originally Posted by wacey

Nice candid analysis.

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Sorry if it's not what anyone wanted. :p I didn't read the whole thread.

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Originally Posted by Emmym

Sorry if it's not what anyone wanted. :p I didn't read the whole thread.

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I'm sure what you wrote is fine.

It's very easy to judge the interest someone has in you by the way they handle their time around you. This is because time is the most valuable resource of all; even the rich, who have tons of money, only have 24 hour days like the rest of us.

And it's that simple: if your son called home saying that he broke his leg and he needs your help to get back home, any half decent human being would drop ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING he's doing at the moment and run for it. I mean, is there anything more important than that? You'd do the same for an spouse or your mother. So basically, if someone calls you and you have to decide whether you have time or not, then that person doesn't really mean that much to you (or you to them, if you are at the other end). Obviously, this line of reasoning has its limitations, such as people who want to interrupt you for a trivial reason when the denial is fully justified (such as someone getting upset for you not interrupting an important business meeting to go to the weekly grocery store trip). I'm talking about interactions between mature people who will not interrupt you unless it's something really important, this is, not abusing the attention.

So in an hypothetical situation where I wanted to go out with a girl, if I invited her and she said yes and later cancelled the date at the last moment or worse, forget about it entirely, I would immediately write her off as not sincerely interested. She might find lots of reasons to justify her decision but in the end, those are HER reasons, not reasons involving me. And we and up in the same place: she's thinking only about herself.

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Originally Posted by mikemex

So in an hypothetical situation where I wanted to go out with a girl, if I invited her and she said yes and later cancelled the date at the last moment or worse, forget about it entirely, I would immediately write her off as not sincerely interested. She might find lots of reasons to justify her decision but in the end, those are HER reasons, not reasons involving me. And we and up in the same place: she's thinking only about herself.

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I would have the same exact reaction.
If some extenuating emergency happened that forced the person to cancel, i'd try to understand, but the beginning stages of a relationship are so fragile that it's a toss up as to whether i'd give things a second chance or not. It may depend on how the cancellation was handled, like if someone cancels but at the same time is urging for a reschedule, I'd understand and give it a chance.