Im wondering what ENFjs are like, since I dont think I know any. If you do, how would you describe them, like what are their traits, their behaviors, etc? Are they really that controlling of everything? Or is that just a stereotype?
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Im wondering what ENFjs are like, since I dont think I know any. If you do, how would you describe them, like what are their traits, their behaviors, etc? Are they really that controlling of everything? Or is that just a stereotype?
I know 3.
Ex-roomate
Grandmother
Second cousin (also known as Aunt)
The ex-roomate and grandmother ARE controlling. They expect everyone to be able to do things at their pace, and if you don't, you have something wrong with you, or, have wronged them in some twisted way.
All three are neat freaks, the Aunt being the least neat-freakish.
They are extremely emotional and are not afraid to show it AT ALL.
(which makes me uncomfortable)
They all like to keep busy and keep moving, but complain that they have too much on their plate.
They make themselves out to be the victim's at times. But, I'm mainly speaking of the ex-roomate on the victim thing, heh.
They arn't afraid to tell you whats up, whether it is pleasant or not.
They are dramatic at times, Aunt is less so, but that might just be because she has 3 little boys around all the time and has had enough drama with them being so sick a while ago.
Ummmmm, thats all I can think of right now.
:)
edit: Oh, this might be a coincidence, but all 3 LOVE the beach and always keep themselves nice and tan.
EJs often appear controlling, it's part of the temperament.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheerio
ENFjs usually are charming people who enjoy spending time talking to others. They are very concerned about how others see them and have a salesman/politician quality in that respect. They have little patience for solitary and detailed work that demands long focused concentration. They prefer to present the "big-picture-vision thingy" and leave details to others. They also tend to give little importance to details and concentrate on the impression they make. However, they appear to be much more knowleadgeable than they really are at a first moment.
They are also very concerned about dressing well and looking good generally.
Something I noticed with 2 ENFj girls is that depending on their mood they can be extremely complimentary of every trait of your, or absolutely disimissing and critical of everything you do. Though, if somebody else brings up a negative evalutation of your charatchter, they are going to be the first to shed a positive light on the same negative trait and reframe it into a different perispective.
Also, they're much, much easier to talk with one-on-one than in groups of people, because if they are in a group they tend to harmonize the opinions and, even if they agree with you, they aren't going to declare it.
They can be extremely chatty, and you might think they're sensors at first, too. That's :Fe: dominance. I guess :Ni: subtypes might be different in this respect. Usually EXTREMELY sensitive to :Si: stuff, like changes in temperature of a room, sunlight, cold, and not afraid of showing their weakness.
Very organized and throught in their homework: need structure in order to learn well. But don't really give a shit about it in a social setting. Except when they're in a bad mood.
I do not have any clear guideline to spot them. They seem to have a strange brillance in the eyes: they're not deeply set on what they're looking at, but kind of show an interest that is visible on the retina. They also make rather endearing faces when speaking about anything :Fe:. Bossy when in bad mood.
A charateristic ENFj expression:
http://www.socionics.us/celebrities/temp/moore_2.jpg
http://www.socionics.us/celebrities/temp/moore_3.jpg
Try imaging without the plastic surgery. The eyes particular I was speaking about before is visible, too.
P.S. As you can see, the references to "moods" are everywhere. If you notice the transitions, you're on the right path.
There is an ENFj team leader who sits basically next to me at work. FDG's description is perfect. She chats all friggen day. She can also be a little bossy, at first there was a big drama with other team members wanting to get rid of her. She has slowly grown on a fair few people now though.
She flirts a lot with the ESTp who sits near me, who is about 20 years younger than her. She also flirts with me a little. She constantly makes sexual jokes, whilst i dont mind at all its a little bit strange for a team leader to do that. Some of the more introverted team members dont like it.
Then she will exhibit some charm, and you will get that flash of what others would find attractive about her. She kind of scares me a little with that charm because i know theres a bossy firery woman underneath lol. the ESTp and her seem to get on well, i think he loves even an older woman flirting with him and having fun and she obviously adores their rambunctous and firery conversations.
Sometimes i just want her to shut the hell up. She chats and she actually disrupts me a lot. Sometimes i wonder if she actually does any work. When i go quiet i can see her go into her shell as she cannot expend her enormous :Fe:.
Anyway all that being said shes the best team leader i have ever had. She doesn't follow my stats and berate me when i have 2 minutes too long at lunch. She is positive in our team meetings and this works perfectly for me. I am performing better than ever before. Her and i seem to have an understanding. She knows i have some fire and doesn't go too far :)
Those two pictures FDG posted, even though she looks differerent they are uncannily similar.
All so strange thus far. Sounds like too much work =p
Anyways, one thing I noticed about the new ENFj girl is that she seems to please others too much. I'll contrast to show what I mean. When she is hosting a party or whatnot, she seems to put so much energy into making everyone is perfectly happy rather than relaxing herself. This makes someone like me (and others, Ive asked) tense because of her inability to just relaxxxxxxxxxxx. I have to use a lot of energy (with the help of my friends) to make the mood more fun and spontaneous. When about 7 of us all went to a movie, she bought popcorn for everyone. She really didnt ask if we wanted popcorn. I could tell she was a bit miffd. She spent all that money on sheer waste. No one wanted popcorn lol. I bought a small bag of starbursts and shared them with the INTj just like we always do. She didnt actually thinking of asking anyone what they preferred. I kind of felt bad for her :/
In contrast, the ESFj we all know is a far superior host. Instead of worrying about everything and making the atmosphere so anxious, she invited everyone to help in the process. For example, at the last bbq party, everyone chipped in effort into making all the food and then drank/etc together. It was far more relaxing and entertaining.
They both have something in common, though. They both are kind of clingy and always invite (multiple times mind you) anyone to stay.
This isnt a fair contrast, though. I think the ENFj has some serious issues whereas the ESFj is more healthy imo. That's all I have to offer now. Both would most likely be F subtypes btw.
His issues seem similar to the issues that the ISTj I know has. She hordes things that are completely worthless.
I wonder how different Fe and Ni subtypes are if they really do exist.
Thanks to everyone thus far for responding. Alot of info here...hmmm Ill have to read this carefully.
Keep it comin.
How to recognize an ENFJ (from an ENFJ, so perhaps askew:)
*Glib, affable, and charming--seemingly disingenuous.
*A teacher--alternately 'visionary,' ridiculous, or annoying. Imparts "knowledge" incessently--even while socializing.
*A dramatic storyteller--many of the world's great playwrights (and probably worst melodramatists) were ENFJs. Russian Socionics cites Shakespeare and Goethe... Also, an excellent, forceful public speaker.
*A quick, terrible temper--from seemingly nowhere, flares like an atom bomb and then dissipates just as quickly.
*Shimmering eyes--lively and bespeaking great depth of character, (sometimes erroneously.)
*A Black & White Weltanschaung, ethically--things are either good or bad. An ENFJ has no tolerance for moral ambiguity.
*A seemingly arrogant (righteous?) countenace.
*Above all, forceful--for better or worse--in almost every conceivable way.
(Horrible people! hehe)
Quote:
Originally Posted by JuJu
Sounds good.
That's what I described! The temper is especially funny to watch.Quote:
Originally Posted by JuJu
Tell me about the temper, please.
It describes my ENFj dad perfectly too.
A lot has been said so far, but let me add a couple more things based on my experience.
I have had a few ENFj acquaintances and have two ENFj ex-girlfriends.
They can be picky eaters. There are certain foods they really like, and can get into the routine of eating those things. If food does not look right to them, they will not eat very much of it.
They can be and act smart, but they also can lack potency in their actions, this can cause them to be clumsy.
Both of my ENFj exes were selfless to a fault. I wanted to get each of them to be more selfish, to think for themselves more. Does any one have any advice on how to get an ENFj to not be so selfless?
Both my mother and her mother (my grandmother) are ENFJs. They're excellent storytellers and are usually the center of the conversation. On a more negative note, one thing my grandmother will do is act like she agrees with everything I'm saying in a very convincing way, and then turn around and tell my mother the complete opposite. Sometimes I really don't know where I stand with her, it seems as an ENFJ she is more concerned with having a harmonious conversation than communicating a disagreement. As an INTJ this bothers me because I expect people to be logical, straightforward, and honest (a bit naive, I know). But I love them both a great deal and they've helped me out of many a jam. Bottom line, when the chips are down you really want an ENFJ in your corner.
My knowledge and intelligence come from my dad (INTj). My strong moral code and overall strict ethical life is a gift from my mom (ENFj).
She's a nice person, but I can't honestly say she's a good mother. She's the hurry type: either she's on something or is already on the way. She doesn't know what the word rest means.
We received plenty of affection from her in our childhood. However, because of this hurriedness she almost always was absent minded. It might sound curious, but we did not receive lots of emotional support from her. Both of my siblings (ENTp and ESFj) complain often about their unsolved emotional problems of childhood.
She drives me crazy. Really crazy. She's probably the only person in this world who can make me so angry.
It might be due to her irrationality. She sees everything trough the emotional window. You cannot talk to her rationally because she simply "don't get it" and turns instead to her "safe" emotional playground.
It's like:
Dad: "You owe me $60 for long distance calls, you did $25 on july, $20 on august and $15 on september".
Mom: "You know that my mom is sick and I need to call her...".
Dad: "What does that has to do with the $60 you owe me? I don't have money to pay your calls".
Mom: "(I'm a victim) I've done so much for you... I deserve to keep my money..."
Dad: "But don't you understand that I DON'T HAVE MONEY TO PAY FOR YOUR CALLS?"
Mom: "I had to go to the medic... and buy...".
Dad: "Don't you listen? I DON'T HAVE MONEY TO PAY FOR YOUR CALLS!!!!!!"
Mom: "You're very cruel... (runs away)".
Thing is, house income is on the edge because my dad is retired. There was simply no money to pay for her calls.
She likes to play victim. I have a mentally ill brother who is permanently disabled. Somehow she thinks just because she helped to support the house income for two years she is relived from her obligations as a parent. She refuses to give any money to the house because "she finally deserves to use it on herself". So she works (uses her time) but doesn't share with us the product of that time.
She started a career in the university and somehow she tought everything in the house must revolve around her. None of us (me and my siblings) go to the university but she decided to go without telling anybody. She spent all of her money in her studies. For example, she bought a laptop for herself, a printer with scanner, lots of books etc.; everything while my dad didn't had enough money to fix his teeth or go to the cardiologist. If she dedicated a bit of time of her time to the house, now she dedicates nothing. So it is my dad, my sister and me who mostly keep the house like cleaning, cooking and such.
She even took a room of the house for herself, in which she spends the little time she's at home. She almost doesn't speak with us.
Overall, is like she no longer existed in the house except to make demands to us. The stereotypical feminist who demands the same rights as men but refuses to have the same obligations. She complains for example, why isn't the meal on time...
I can't understand why is she so supporting to her friends and not with us. It's remarkable her egotism around us. It goes to extremes like locking her room because "some thief may enter the house and steal her things". Notice how she doesn't care about the rest of the house.
And she's paranoid. She is always suspicious about cars parking close to our home for example...
I'm starting to belive she's mentally ill.
As an ENFj I often wonder if people like me. Now I know - no they don't. There were only two posts that made me feel good. The rest of them made me want to kill myself. I'm totally against suicide so I obviously won't really do it, but it did make me feel a whole lot worse about myself. I feel bad about living in a world where I can only be me and when I'm myself, then everyone hates my guts. As it turns out, I'm the bossy bitchy detail-oriented stupid etc. Even if I might seem friendly and smart at first sight, I'm actually the worst thing that happened to mankind.
And now I'm just being a drama queen and forcing everyone to focus their attention to me and I think that everything revolves around me. Just a typical ENFj.
Kristiina, I know, given your type that it's somewhat pointless to try and tell you not to take it personally. But please try & bear in mind, the posts here are not criticising you. I can see you are feeling very isolated and unappreciated, which is the worst possible thing for an ENFJ, and I'm truly sorry for that. Given the cultural factors that you mentioned there are probably other extraverts around who feel the same. Maybe you could start a club for them! There are people out there who are going to accept and love you for what you are. Most of us having trouble finding enough people like that in our lives, but I realise for an ENFJ that lack must be especially tough. Hang in there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristiina
From another forum someone wrote:
Now Kristiina please, don't read any further! There is a post I need to respond to, and it does concern an ENFJ I have some personal problems with. But that person is not you.Quote:
I get sad reading all the criticisms of ENFJs here... my dad is the most wonderful person you can imagine. He is 100% reliable and is always doing things for his family. I just wish he would rest more, but he is always going out and doing something for us or for his job and co-workers.
Interesting, the poster I quoted above has ENFJ father, INTJ mother.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikemex
I found my mum just the same. I never had her full attention unless she was delivering a lecture. Any affection she gave, to me felt empty where she had not taken the time to build any emotional connection. I never felt that she cared about my needs or what was going on inside, only about appearances. As an adult, and knowing her type now, I'm better able to judge what she can and can't give me and not be as upset about it. She does the best she can, but god, as a child it was painful. A mother is supposed to be the one person in the world who's there for you unconditionally, or tries to be, but mine is emphatically conditional. Be angry and you are repulsive; be sad, pathetic (I lost count of the "just get over it"s long ago); boring, and you are contemptible.Quote:
She's a nice person, but I can't honestly say she's a good mother. She's the hurry type: either she's on something or is already on the way. She doesn't know what the word rest means.
We received plenty of affection from her in our childhood. However, because of this hurriedness she almost always was absent minded. It might sound curious, but we did not receive lots of emotional support from her. Both of my siblings (ENTp and ESFj) complain often about their unsolved emotional problems of childhood.
Do you think your mother is the F subtype? I think mine is. I try not to even go there now, you just cannot argue with her. No matter how unkind or unfair she has been she never apologises. The only time in my whole life that I've ever heard her say "I'm sorry" is as in, "I'm sorry you feel that way, but..." I know now that's because any criticism is so painful and scary for her that all she can do is run, run, run. And yes, there's no holding her to account on what she spends (or on anything for that matter). She needs to have her "own money".Quote:
She drives me crazy. Really crazy. She's probably the only person in this world who can make me so angry.
It might be due to her irrationality. She sees everything through the emotional window. You cannot talk to her rationally because she simply "don't get it" and turns instead to her "safe" emotional playground.
This is more extreme than my mum, but I see the same pattern. She didn't feel she should have to use "her money" for paying bills and the cupboards were overflowing with her clothes. She didn't think that she should have to come home from work and cook and do housework. She acted as though us kids were lying around with our feet up all day, rather than coming home from a full day of school just as drained and discouraged as her. And rather than sit down and talk about the problems and who could do what, she would just come home and scream at me because I'm not cooking dinner, even though she never told me to or told me what was planned to make (or even taught me how to cook... she would just shove things at me and say "get on with it" and then complain about how long it took me to figure it out or how it came out). She overtly says that we should know what she needs without her having to say anything, and can't see that that's really an irrational belief.Quote:
She likes to play victim. I have a mentally ill brother who is permanently disabled. Somehow she thinks just because she helped to support the house income for two years she is relived from her obligations as a parent. She refuses to give any money to the house because "she finally deserves to use it on herself". So she works (uses her time) but doesn't share with us the product of that time.
She started a career in the university and somehow she thought everything in the house must revolve around her. None of us (me and my siblings) go to the university but she decided to go without telling anybody. She spent all of her money in her studies. For example, she bought a laptop for herself, a printer with scanner, lots of books etc.; everything while my dad didn't had enough money to fix his teeth or go to the cardiologist. If she dedicated a bit of time of her time to the house, now she dedicates nothing. So it is my dad, my sister and me who mostly keep the house like cleaning, cooking and such.
She even took a room of the house for herself, in which she spends the little time she's at home. She almost doesn't speak with us.
Overall, is like she no longer existed in the house except to make demands to us. The stereotypical feminist who demands the same rights as men but refuses to have the same obligations. She complains for example, why isn't the meal on time...
Overall she has this attitude about "I shouldn't have to", "Nobody appreciates me". As an adult I realise that as an ENFJ she has a basic need to feel approved of to satisfy her F. But boy, it's hard to be held up to that standard as a child. When nothing you do or say is ever good enough, why even try?
Mum is a completely different person with her friends than she is with me. She goes out of her way to charm them and please them, whereas with me she goes out of her way to judge, criticise and disagree. However she never has the same friends for too long. After some time her relationships tend to taper off, I think because she finds more and more things to judge and find wanting (although not to their face).Quote:
I can't understand why is she so supporting to her friends and not with us.
Sounds like her irrationality is really getting out of control, that's almost what you would expect from someone with dementia.Quote:
It's remarkable her egotism around us. It goes to extremes like locking her room because "some thief may enter the house and steal her things". Notice how she doesn't care about the rest of the house.
And she's paranoid. She is always suspicious about cars parking close to our home for example...
I'm starting to belive she's mentally ill.
some enfjs described here just sound like they have borderline personality disorder.
Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by FDG
Zillah, thanks for the pretty intro to your post. :) It was sweet. Don't worry, things are not that bad. I live with my boyfriend, I have friends, I have hobbies, I read books, I watch happy shows on TV. I just feel bad about the thought that other people might barely endure me. I know everyone had flaws, but most of my personality has been listed somewhere as a flaw. People can't stand 9/10 out of ENFj traits, even the traits that they forgive in others.
zillah, Mikemex. I thought about it and I realized something... neither of you had anything to add about your INTj father. And that's as important as both of you having bitchy ENFj mothers.
There is one thing that I have realized about myself - I try to take power over things! It's what I naturally do. When I have no restrictions, I am more likely to be opinionated and express it, I'm more likely to enforce my own desires, my own likes and dislikes. Usually I seriously tune it down. I try to make sure that I don't force my INFj friend into anything and that I don't take advantage of my INTp boyfriend (we live together).
I can somewhat imagine if my bf was INTj. When it comes to a romantic relationship, keep the Se-PoLRs away from me! They are willing to give you all the power you want in exchange for one kiss. That's the worst thing ever. It's like offering gold on a silver plate. Just take it, no strings attaches. At first, the ENFj mother probably tried not to take advantage of the weak husband, but how long can anyone keep it up? Especially with the INTj willing to play dead and roll over. Like really. If there were a 100 gold coins on the table with someone saying, "please take it, I want you to take it" and you know you shouldn't take it, because it will lead you to the dark side, how long will it be until the gold is gone?
The INTj father is guilty for not being able to keep the ENFj under control. Of course the ENFj is also to blame, but if it had been an ISTj, she would never have been given such control over the entire household.
Irrelevant part: I'm not sure if it's because I'm Ni-subtype, but I do housework. I try to be self-sacrificing, but I end up acting like a martyr. :) I can spend hours cleaning alone, making sure that the floors are washed and the dust removed, but only as long as others acknowledge my martyrdom. I think they win here. I spend 4 hours doing physically difficult work (with the relentless EJ high-energy mode) and they have to spend 10-20 min telling me that I really have worked hard and it has made a difference and that I'm a good girl. :D
I am close with two ENFjs (one male, one female) and they are fabulous. They are dedicated to their careers and successful, but always have time when you need them. They are very level-headed. I have called both of them in times when I was an anxiety-riddled mess and they gave me what I needed: a clear take on the issue through Ni-powered wisdom, all delivered with the Fe that I needed.
They are fun to be with, have a very funny and somewhat sarcastic humor, they like people, but are not as fuzzy about them as I am, which I like. One of them is a social worker and perfect for the kinds of positions she has had.
The absolute only thing I can think of that annoys me is that they can be opinionated and that they tend to give advice when I just want to vent. But in critical situations they know what I need and I can always say that I don't want that sort of feedback and it's all good. And I know I can call day and night when I need to.
I really like being around ENFjs because they seem to balance me out somewhat without making me feel like a pathetic scatterbrained chaos queen. They take people as they are and are always very polite and attentive.
So I think they are great. :D
My experience with ENFjs has mostly been similar to Kim's, with one exception.
http://the16types.info/forums/viewto...r=asc&start=49Quote:
Originally Posted by Diana
Exhibit A of your typical socially capable, physically active (perhaps moreso than most), and mentally healthy INTj.
They are not the kind of people who will tell me what I have to do. I won't use the word pussy, but I will say that INTj isn't enough of a man to tame me. :) (take it as you want. I'm just saying that INTjs are the "victim"-turn-off. I think I ALMOST dated two INTjs. I get hives when I hear the words, "you decide." Brrrr.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diana
What, lol. What's the problem if you have to decide something? Like if there are many options? 99 percent of girls want guys to decide but complain endlessly if the guy decides something they don't want to doQuote:
Originally Posted by Kristiina
So it is an urban legend that INFjs/ENFps think that every person is an individual. Maybe I am bossy, but I think you're being arrogant to assume that me being bossy is a result of defected development (because, by Gods, I SHOULD be like you and I'm not, so obviously something went wrong, right?).Quote:
Originally Posted by Diana
Compared to me, INTjs are "spineless, or weak-willed, or willing to just roll over and play dead". They might not seem that way to you, but your dual is not ISTj.
I made a premature logical addition that low self-confidence is a product of defected development. Everyone has their own skills, so they have different reasons to have a high self-confidence. If a person has a low self-confidence, s/he wasn't encouraged enough. That's one of my personal beliefs, not general knowledge. Sorry about that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diana
But I still protest against the idea that there is something wrong with me if I am the way that I am, i.e. If I'm bossy or opinionated or assertive (the opposite of INTj), I must have a real defined flaw (low self-confidence). I don't think that INTjs are strong willed/opinionated/assertive/bossy, so I must be abnormal. In reality, this just makes me different from you. You might SAY that every person is an individual, but you act as if individuals that are different from you are somehow worse.
I'm afraid my father is ISTJ, but still she was utterly convinced of her own rightness. In her mind she was "carrying us all on her backs". In reality she did nothing but carp and criticise ("helping" us be "perfect") so everybody just wanted to keep away from her. I totally hated her by the time I was a teenager and my dad ended up leaving her for somebody else. (So much for duality. :) ) My brother gets on with her better but even he found her oppressively controlling at times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristiina
It's interesting that you said that though, about the ISTJ stopping too much control, because now as an adult I'm finding that our relationship is OK pretty much to the extent that I either let things that she says to me slide (they are her problem, not mine) or if it really bothers me, to confront her about it.
E.g. she used to sneer at me and speak to me in a contemptuous tone, when I confronted her she made a huge self righteous scene ("I just want you to think about how hard I am working to keep things together" etc) but she has actually stopped, which is a huge relief. She wasn't aware she was doing it of course, but it really cuts to have your own mother treat you as if you are not even worthy of polite speech. Anyway since then that tone of voice has stopped and she is perhaps a bit more respectful to me. I guess it really is up to me to be the rational one and keep her in line if necessary.
I'm really happy for you fever! :) Each type has its own continuum of positive to negative expressions; I wish my mum was like the above, I can see the potential for it, but she tends more to the negative side. She is self sacrificing, but with definite expectations about what she's owed in return. She gives what suits her rather than me, and has limited interest in my preferences. She wants sympathy for her own difficulties but expects everyone else to "get over it" and "get on with it". She has high standards, but without much understanding so it often comes out as self righteousness.Quote:
Originally Posted by fever
That's my mum.Quote:
An ENFJ who has not developed their Intuition, may not be able to see possibilities, and will judge things too quickly based on established value systems or social rules, without really understanding the current situation.
I make no claim to being a perfect mother myself, but by no means do I feel I have the right to pressure a child into being who I've decided they should be (which doesn't work anyway). I have no right to edit the emotions of a child and expect them to make "unacceptable" feelings disappear. At no point do I believe that being ladylike and proper should occur even at the expense of a child's soul. I hope I never give my child the message that his true self is an unwelcome guest in my heart and my home. Because that is the message I got from my mother every day of my childhood.
I read a novel recently called The Third Child by Marge Piercy. The main character's mother treats her very much as mine did, as an uncouth embarassment who would be much better off leaving all decisions to her mother. She is just as cold and judgemental to her daughter as mine was to me. It was interesting to see this in a fictional story.
I've had emails from my mum with just this sort of tone. She also hated my first boyfriend (his family is blue collar, his father a house painter). He was a bit flaky but gave me praise and affection, which I desperately needed - it even helped with my studies, since I was more satisfied emotionally and more able to focus. But she was delighted when we broke up, and when we got back together she told me in a very sombre tone that she felt I was making a big mistake. :8*Quote:
Originally Posted by The Third Child
No, none of us did enough around the house. Why would I have wanted to do anything for somebody who only treats me like an object in some tableau to be moved around according to what best suits appearances? If she ever ONCE had asked me nicely instead of screaming at me "You ungrateful @*&!#$, why haven't you <insert some thing she never asked me to do>, don't you ever think about anyone but yourself..."etc, then probably something would have got done.Quote:
Originally Posted by stefana
Probably what bothered me most was that she never reevaluated. If she was doing something to me, and it resulted in an angry, sad, distant child, she figured the problem was that I was bad, and do the same thing even harder to try and "fix" me (because no way could she be wrong or need to try a different approach!) She never backed off to seek more understanding on anything. "The perfumed steamroller". She asked questions occasionally, but only to straightaway tell me I was wrong and back to the steamroller. She wanted a suppressed, compliant doll. She wasn't interested in me at all.
Give me an example of where you see a PoLR being displayed, or a pattern that you've observed in someone on the forum that is indicative of his/her PoLR.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joy
I'm curious as to why you say that? I mentioned before that she is F subtype.
She is an idealistic crusader, inconsistent, hates anything repetitive, loves abstract art, and is pretty uncoordinated and generally un-physical (and totally hopeless with technical things). None of that fits with ESFJ. She is not even mildly close to ISFJ.
An online forum about types is the least likely of all places where people will let their natural personalities show, at least to a large extent people will play they role they wanna convey since they know people can understand types.
:8* I'm aware of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by fever
During the period I described - yes.Quote:
is she always like this consistently?
ENFj people will only cheer up people who are worthy of their attention.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diana
ENFjs can't stand by when they see something very very wrong. No beta will let themselves be taunted and haunted by a possible gamma/delta who is trying to take power on beta land. It's like a little puppy dog who came and started barking at wolves and pissing in their pond and thought she'd not be noticed.
Lets keep empty smalltalk in Joy-land and lets keep beta meaningful, precise and concrete.
Yes, but it doesn't give permission to post empty posts later.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diana
Because after all, Beta would never, ever dream of going off-topic. :8*Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristiina
(Elro shoots a spitwad at Kriistina)
personally, i know two EIE and there really are thoughtful people. they can sometimes be a bit reclusive or act weird but i noticed that it's mostly in order to avoid individuals they dislike. it took me some time to understand since i don't operate in this fashion. but since they're such nice and polite people they don't want to spread negativity themselves. my sister is EIE and she is prolly amongst the strongest people i know. not that they're necessarily physically strong but morally strong. and in the good sense of the word. like some people are just uptight or hypocrites. EIE really believes in th human heart, the goodness of people. when i see ****** and Franco as possible ENFj i kinda understand. they can be pretty stubborn about their opinions of others.
like my sis'. it's like there's a point of no return with her and if you ever cross it she'll just erase you from her life. she won't necessarily offend you if you happen to meet her somewhere but you'll still be barred anyway. they have high standards of behaviour and expect others to "submit" to these rules because in their minds, anything else is just uncivilised. she prolly wouldn't have commanded the raid of city though. :D
and Joy no offense but the more i visit tis site the less i believe you could possibly be ENTj. just a thought :wink: !
:) lol. yeah, I agree. Not much of a surprise, right? :D (I loved your other post too.)Quote:
Originally Posted by mustachio
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Originally Posted by Typhon
not my tread. back on topic.
Great idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristiina
To answer the question... Hmmmmm... let me think about my recent interactions with ENFjs....
I would tend to think that this is a good description:
Quote:
The Inspector is good at scheduling arrangements and actions for the nearest future, thinking over the details in advance. Such a concrete program of actions is exactly what The Mentor needs, who is 'sinking in doubts'. The Inspector's strict logic of facts leaves no space for exaggerations and conjectures. His cold realism calms down his restless dual, who likes The Inspector's love for stability and order in everything. The Mentor finds him a helper, support and 'good haven' in his stormy emotional life. He easily allows his partner to guide him in practical issues, although he may be obstinate in ideas. In addition, he distracts The Inspector from being too scrupulous in the details, focusing him on general rules and the final objective.
The Inspector possesses well-developed will power. He is capable of overcoming any difficulties with enviable courage and stoicism. He is capable of 'holding in hands' his dual, never allowing him to lose his heart, to lose faith for success. He can mobilize himself and others in critical situations, but in everyday life he is enduring, can wait for natural upshot, without hurrying up events. He believes in educative meaning of personal experience.
The Inspector does not trust the feelings of the others. Trying not to show it, he is sometimes courteous and agreeable in communication. But he quickly gets tired of such efforts and needs solitude, switching his attention to work. He likes a partner like The Mentor, who is capable of ardent expression of his feelings. Such behavior leaves no space for doubts. In this case The Inspector has only to watch that these feelings remain stable, and to take care of the one whom needs him so much. Feeling coldness from the side of others, he shrinks into himself, becomes inaccessible and touchy. He can keep this pain inside for a long time, and this may even result in quarrels for nothing, for reasons seemingly quite irrelevant to the real problem. The Mentor also needs emotional discharging and is quite capable of provoking quarrels.
Another weak point of The Inspector is his inability to understand hidden motivations of people's behavior. This makes him mistrustful and reticent, and sometimes too suspicious. He may blame someone for things they've never done, and changing his mind may prove to be very difficult. On the other hand, The Inspector may underestimate a possible danger, may not mention either positive or negative perspectives of development of a situation. For this reason he may be blindly careless, hoping for victory of common sense. The Inspector has difficulties with due evaluation of people's potential capabilities, new ideas or non-traditional approaches. Others may see him as being too conservative or too dogmatic. The Mentor, who foresees all of this, gives advises at the right time, helps by deeds, takes preventive actions and explains the possible outcome of all undertakings.
The Mentor is capable of emotionally influencing people, of inspiring them with his ideas. He 'calculates' in advance all the options of exiting a critical situation. He is a person with a spiritual nature and he constantly strives for self-development. This in fact saves The Inspector from falling into a rut, which is characteristic of him because of his wish to put everything in order and then to change nothing. The Mentor likes great undertakings but does not evaluate his forces. He needs The Inspector's advice on taking business actions, on economy and rationality in spending money, on the use and quality of things. He needs a person, who will share with him responsibility and help in overcoming all the difficulties he has taken upon himself. Nobody can do it as efficiently as his dual.
The Mentor sometimes lacks will power and is undemanding of others concerning fulfillment of concrete work. He willingly gives people small errands, which many of them forget to fulfill – but not The Inspector! He is demanding of himself and others. He can organize the working process and achieve results. And The Mentor, getting thus inspired by him, can fulfill a huge volume of work in a short time, and so never disappoints his demanding partner.
The Mentor's weak point is his neglect in taking care of his own health and mental rest. He is afraid of being unaesthetic; discomfort in surrounding conditions or in his own appearance really unsettles him. The Inspector undertakes the issues of material security, creates comfort, advises concerning the partner's appearance, quality of foods etc. He is a good housemaster.
In general, what this dual pair is distinguished by is a certain 'aristocracy' and isolation from others, a complicated emotional life and fidelity to the sense of duty. One more mutual requirement of these types to each other: be prudent in your actions! For them 'imprudent' means 'not one of us', for they strive to avoid any uncertainty.
Right, so something on topic --
The ENFj I have observed most closely is my present boss. He tries to convey, also to himself I think, the typical ENFj - E3 image of successful career man who can charm anyone.
He is very good in talking to people about the "big picture". In meeting with clients and upper management where he has to give a general idea of what is going on, he makes a very favorable impression, as if he not only knew exactly what is going on but was also able to present it well, professionally, and in a pleasant and charming way. At his best - I am not exaggerating - he reminds me of John Kennedy, who was also ENFj IMO.
However, he gets upset and uneasy whenever you try to talk to him about more detailed stuff. If I start to get too detailed when giving him a feedback on something, he gets impatient and annoyed. He also dislikes discussing "unpleasant" subjects, anything that brings up negative emotions. From this point of view, to me, he is something of a lightweight.
The accounting people and secretaries dislike him because he is terrible with administrative details, even signing stuff. He seems to want to keep the power over such things but dislikes the boring work associated to it.
He can act a bit authoritarian when he doesn't get his way through charm. However, he always seems nervous, slightly out-of-control when doing that, which is obvious in comparison to the ISTj manager, who does it in a coldly solid way. The ENFj has lost his temper a few times.
He feels frustrated when not active and trying to accomplish something, but on the other hand the local ISFp always managed to get him to stay too long at lunch, he's sensitive to suggestions to indulge in sensorial pleasures.
He can be very good and generous, even kindly - if he likes you. He definitely divides people into those he likes and those he dislikes. I find it easy to talk to him about "big-talk" subjects until a point is reached when he has very strong and rigid beliefs, then we get nowhere. Even if he concedes a point, he will be back to his initial position a few days later.
He can be ruthless, he sacked an ISTp on the spot about a year ago - however, he dislikes discussing that and it seems to make him feel bad.
Sometimes he shoots himself in the foot when using Fe - - he has reacted to political difficulties by overplaying his hand and making enemies when it wasn't necessary. It's as if his emotions overruled his political judgement.
He has married a very good-looking woman whom I have typed as INFp. She is an executive assistant (ie secretary) but since she works for the European Comission she makes lots of money. They are investing every cent they can in building a huuuuuge house which will either be worth a fortune or be a white elephant. However, they are not thinking of profit but of living in their "dream house". In the weeks before the wedding, all he could talk about was the wedding as a spectacle - the cathedral, the number of guests, etc. In the first weeks after his wedding he still slipped and referred to her as his "girlfriend". He has commented that he doesn't discuss some subjects with her (such as political difficulties at work) since "she wouldn't understand".
As a boss, he is very easy-going about the reality of things, but not the image -- for instance, he doesn't care if you are taking a break surfing the net; he does care a lot if other people see you doing it.
Lol FDG.
Something good about him -- his "likes and dislikes" are based on his perception of political rivalries, he seems to accept instinticvely that people are different, for example, he says of the ENFp salesman that "he drives me crazy" with his Ne-mode "brilliant" ideas, but he recognizes his abilities. The ENFj also appreciates an INFj as a genuine good guy who does his best. What I'm saying is, he seems to instinctively see good qualities even in very different people from himself. His big problem is with ISTps, though. He sacked one and has nothing but contempt for another one who's still around.
I've seen a lot of Fe types do this... but none so much as ENFjs because they're so much more adamant than the IxFps and for some reason the ESFjs I know seem to have more sense when it comes to that sort of thing... which makes no sense because you'd think the ability to understand when something is a good idea and when it's a bad idea is somewhat related to Ni.Quote:
he has reacted to political difficulties by overplaying his hand and making enemies when it wasn't necessary.
Yes, luckily everybody has a good side, lol, but I know I would have some problems @ working with him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Expat
Possibly the Ti+Se dual-seeking combo make them adaman in their convinctions once they are decided, a "quality" (ehm) that they share with their duals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joy
yeah, like the description says...
Quote:
One more mutual requirement of these types to each other: be prudent in your actions! For them 'imprudent' means 'not one of us', for they strive to avoid any uncertainty.
Or if you prefer, because ENFjs are resolute-carefree, and ESFjs are reasonable-calculating.Quote:
Originally Posted by FDG
thanx! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by fever
Good post, Expat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Expat
This is like my mum, she has these big visions and crusades about fixing all problems in the world she works in, but she is really uncomfortable with detail, or negativity. It's a problem for me when I talk to her, because I can't tell her about the things that interest me, or criticise anything.Quote:
He is very good in talking to people about the "big picture". In meeting with clients and upper management where he has to give a general idea of what is going on, he makes a very favorable impression, as if he not only knew exactly what is going on but was also able to present it well, professionally, and in a pleasant and charming way. At his best - I am not exaggerating - he reminds me of John Kennedy, who was also ENFj IMO.
However, he gets upset and uneasy whenever you try to talk to him about more detailed stuff. If I start to get too detailed when giving him a feedback on something, he gets impatient and annoyed. He also dislikes discussing "unpleasant" subjects, anything that brings up negative emotions. From this point of view, to me, he is something of a lightweight.
Mum was very much like that when telling me off for something when I was a child. I would've been quite happy if she just took control in a fair & consistent way but instead she would get kind of freaked out and launch a moral assault. She would try to emotionally bludgeon you into behaving by telling you how bad you were, whereas what I needed was information about why something was wrong.Quote:
The accounting people and secretaries dislike him because he is terrible with administrative details, even signing stuff. He seems to want to keep the power over such things but dislikes the boring work associated to it.
He can act a bit authoritarian when he doesn't get his way through charm. However, he always seems nervous, slightly out-of-control when doing that
Yeah, my mum is a workaholic but also very distractable for chatting purposes. :)Quote:
He feels frustrated when not active and trying to accomplish something, but on the other hand the local ISFp always managed to get him to stay too long at lunch, he's sensitive to suggestions to indulge in sensorial pleasures.
Ooooooh yes. Friends and "those people". :)Quote:
He can be very good and generous, even kindly - if he likes you. He definitely divides people into those he likes and those he dislikes.
Yeah, they can't be persuaded by any rational means. I can give mum some argument point by point, and all she does is cast vague aspersions on what I said, then restate her same position. For someone who values social harmony so much, she finds something to disagree with in virtually every statement that enters her ears. Her dad used to say "That ____ thinks she knows everything about everything!"Quote:
I find it easy to talk to him about "big-talk" subjects until a point is reached when he has very strong and rigid beliefs, then we get nowhere. Even if he concedes a point, he will be back to his initial position a few days later.
Dramas, everything dramas. They are not good at winning over people that they feel hostile towards, all that emotion and judgement just has to come spilling out. Would you even want someone on your side that was one of "those people"? :)Quote:
Sometimes he shoots himself in the foot when using Fe - - he has reacted to political difficulties by overplaying his hand and making enemies when it wasn't necessary. It's as if his emotions overruled his political judgement.
To Mum I think the image is the reality. Never mind "bad" actions, her children were not even allowed to have "bad" feelings. She used to go on to me about "your reputation", about things that were happening inside our house with none outside the family present. She seemed terribly concerned all the time about what people would think, I thought that was why she got so flustered whenever something went wrong. I know ENFJ is meant to be my dual but I can't imagine wanting to live with someone so highly strung.Quote:
As a boss, he is very easy-going about the reality of things, but not the image -- for instance, he doesn't care if you are taking a break surfing the net; he does care a lot if other people see you doing it.
zillah, could you be ISFj sensory subtype instead? Gamma instead of Beta?
The story has an epilogue -- he fulfilled the occasional ENFj destiny of self-destruction. He managed to get sacked summarily yesterday.
Oops karma.Quote:
Originally Posted by Expat
Well that wasn't my invention. Smilingeyes described it in the "VI Jesus" thread some time ago:
I think that is a very good interpretation of "my" ENFj's actions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Smilingeyes
Nope, I got plenty T. I have several ISFJ friends, and they are so sweet but I often want to slap them around the head for being so meek. My son is ISFJ also. It would probably be nicer for him if he had a nice gentle F for a mum instead of harsh ole me. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Expat
I don't think I've met any ENFJ my age, let alone a male one, but I have more and more admiration for the ENFJ positive traits as I get older, get more aware of my own blind spots, and my relationship with my mum starts to outgrow some of the problems I mentioned. I have no desire to be in a relationship anyway so it's a moot point.
It would be cool to meet some male INFPs, I have some great INFP girlfriends. I have met a few male INFJs, they've seemed pretty fucked up to me but then that's not a type you'd expect me to get on with anyway.
Can someone tell me what the next most common partnership is supposed to be after duality?
That is not a good description of ISFjs, not even from an ISTj's point of view. Sorry but I must question whether you typed them correctly.Quote:
Originally Posted by zillah
And ISFjs do tend to see themselves as "plenty T".
That is odd. How so fucked up?Quote:
Originally Posted by zillah
In terms of frequency, some say it's benefit. In terms of Socionics compatibility, the most favorable ones should be Identical, Activity, Mirror, Semi-Dual and Illusion.Quote:
Originally Posted by zillah
I find it sad. I don't want to have that fate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Expat
I always thought that if I do big things than I'll either win big or lose big, but at least my existence won't stay unnoticed in the general world balance. The world keeps changing anyway. Even stagnation is a constant change that will eventually lead to changes. Stability in society is an illusion. I can't stop the changes, so I might as well influence the direction.
Are you sure they aren't INFjs or ISFps rather than ISFj? "Meek" isn't a word I would use to describe your typical Se type.Quote:
Originally Posted by zillah
Fi ISFjs are like that, they're very sweet. I wouldn't say so for Se ones, not particularly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joy
are we talking about meek or sweet?
I think Se ISFjs are "sweet" too, they're just not soft
This could be an ENFj manifesto, do you think?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristiina
That is the Dynamic, EJ temperament manifesto! :oQuote:
Originally Posted by Kristiina
:PQuote:
Originally Posted by Kristiina
Yes, after I had had my own insight to my own thoughts and after I had written it down, I also concluded that it can be seen the way you described. I realized I sound both ENFj and dynamic and EJ.Quote:
Originally Posted by Expat
I sometimes think my ideas about the world are very deep and meaningful but then again... Do I really want to be generally hated and self-destructive. I know many people say they don't hate ENFjs. Some even say they admire ENFjs on a distant level, but very few people actually like ENFjs.
:lol: lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Gilligan
The Fi sub-types can give the impression of appearing meek or timid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joy
If that's the case, I can understand why it's difficult to tell the difference between an IN(F)j and an IS(F)j.
are we talking about ISFjs here? no! Open another thread for such things, and it sure ain't a beta topic.
And Fe people are all snarky, right Joy? :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Diana
God, I'll take cliquiness and social rules over out-and-out bitchiness any day.
Back on topic --
I got more information on what was going on with my ENFj ex-boss. He went down precisely the levels of health as described for Enneagram 3 and got very close, IMHO, to NPD - Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
Quote:
Level 7: Fearing failure and humiliation, they can be exploitative and opportunistic, covetous of the success of others, and willing to do "whatever it takes" to preserve the illusion of their superiority.
Level 8: Devious and deceptive so that their mistakes and wrongdoings will not be exposed. Untrustworthy, maliciously betraying or sabotaging people to triumph over them. Delusionally jealous of others
To state the obvious -- I am not saying that all ENFjs or all E3s have to go down that path. I haven't gotten APD, yet, either. However, he did.
My best friend is an ENFj... well, one of my best friends.
When I'm around her, I feel like we can be very annoying. Our two strongest functions come out, Ni & majorrr Fe... and we kind of ignore all other ones .. it's as if when you're with you're mirror, you're like an even more stylized version of your type ... that's the only way I can put it.
We laugh over a lot, but not in the same way my E/INFp male best friend and I do ... (we understand eachother more, actually)
I love her a lot, but I can see how she gets annoying to other people. I can handle her because I've known her for so long and we "get" eachother intuitively, sympathizing with eachothers' problems. However, she can be extremelyyy overly emotional, giddy, etc. that can piss the hell out of a lot of people that are more mellow, chill -- especially Alphas + Deltas.
I can't spend that much time with her before becoming sort of drained, but when I do see her for a while, it is absolutely awesome and very comfortable in a way. Except that something is lacking .. I don't really feel stable or secure .. just overly flighty... TOO INFp-ish =/ If that makes any sort of sense.
She constantly has drama in her life. LOTS & LOTS of drama. Right now, she is going through quite a depressive period which I don't like to see. She is the best @ hyping up her own life, telling melodramatic stories and saying how she has those "days when all she wants to do is cry.." She's like me in that sense, but I think I do the melodrama with some flair/class but she's just out and out with it LOL. Needless to say, we both understand eachothers' need for the drama and we even admitted how we like feeling a bit distressed/sad. Sooo Beta.
When we're together, we can scare the shit out of anyone else not on the same wavelength.
Other traits she has: Comes across as prim and proper in a way, very conscientious and has a lot of morals. She is definitely not "easy" in relationships. However, she also has that overly giddiness thing that really defines her..
My experiences are not so deep, but I know two of them. They are good people, but I have problems with them. One of the problems is their strong power of intuitive empathy. They have :Fe: so strong that they don't even realize when they are talking openly on what problems someone has. They do it often. But troubles begin and misunderstanding arises when they say out something what other wishes not to reveal. The matter is private to him or her. It cab be bitter to admit she has sawn what worries you and others now know that.
Their problem with me is my :Ne: . I can see their talents and give an advice on how to solve some problem or what talent they should realize in life. It annoys them.
They also like objective comments like you are a laboureus person because many of them concider thems as a hardworker. Some of them can work very well with their hands in as much as one can be good at with their 3rd.
i'm an enfj myself....we are very dramatic and sensitive...i disagree with the comment made that we aim to please people alot...i admit i do that to a certain extent because i like seeing the people i care about happy but i dont think i would what that girl did in that situation...Anyway when it comes to love we have a hard time letting go and i mean a realllllyyy long time...
INTJ men who are unaware of the dating game (that men must be assertive, dominant) will generally make the social blunder of appearing to be entirely submissive to their woman (i.e. intj: "you decide"). Due to being unchallenged, the girl will lose interest in him before she even discovers the unshaken confidence of the intj. Poor bastards. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Kristiina
lol. :) intjguy, you're right - INTjs can be very confident and let the girl decide nevertheless. But if the INTj knew the dating game, he'd be able to behave more assertive with girls. I know one INTj, who'd really be a great catch for an ESFj
The thing is... I don't want anyone "playing the dating game" and giving me an impression of an assertive person. :) I want the guy to actually really be assertive and decisive. There's a slight difference.
Haha, perhaps then we should rid women of their rights like it was a century ago. Men won't be such wussies, divorce rates will plummet from its current 50% level to 1% (leaving intjs and genetic defects), happier families... happier kids - and a happier you since no male will respect your decision. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Kristiina
Joking aside, I'm glad to know that even the most controlling personality typed female still wishes to be "tamed" by her man.
I have a similar distaste for INTjs who act that way --- mostly the heavily :Ne: subtypes who are constantly Fe seeking.Quote:
Originally Posted by intjguy
The most valuable thing I learned from a few ESFp girls (albeit in a completely backwards way, as they were subconsciously looking for INTps), was how to be decisive about things. One ESFp coached me a bit when I was very green in the ways of assertiveness, although she was unaware that I was learning anything from her. She was just discussing Se matters, and I was able to salvage Ti (and Te likely) useful informations.
One of my favorite things about the MTBI INTJ profile is there "aura of definiteness", and early on in socionics that made me wonder about my type, and then again later on. But the vast majority of INTjs I come across are heavily into alpha atmosphere and Fe dual seeking --- and generate a different image than Rick's "famous LIIs"
Hardly any of them look as cold as http://www.socionics.us/celebrities/7/beckett_6.jpg, or the rest.Quote:
Observations: Cold, concentrated, evaluatory gaze. Clearly delineated thought patterns. Conservative, drab dress style. Reminiscent of Rakhmaninoff, Larry King, and Wittgenstein.
And seeing all of this reminds of the important of :Se: in effective communication (which is easy to disregard for LII); that is to say, communicating clearly and with conviction whatever you are saying is just as important as what you are saying, (and more so, for many people....). If you have the most valuable insight, and yet, you mumble it or present it in a jumbled way, it is lost, and is of no use to anyone.
There's a huge difference. And I think that is a fair request: it would be a lot easier if people just accepted "who they are" and consequently "who would be good for them". Socionics has aided me in understanding this, and even though I may find someone attractive or appealing, it is easy to tell the difference between people who are compatible and people who simply are not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristiina
Although this thread is indeed an example of Beta ENFj's expressing their likes and dislikes dramatically......
==========================================
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristiina
The ironic characteristic for both that kind of LII and Kristiina's kind of EIE is they are both looking for other people to deal with their own problems. The EIE who gets hives when someone says "you decide" isn't really that much different from the LII who cannot choose when someone asks him to do so.Quote:
They are not the kind of people who will tell me what I have to do. I won't use the word pussy, but I will say that INTj isn't enough of a man to tame me. Smile (take it as you want. I'm just saying that INTjs are the "victim"-turn-off. I think I ALMOST dated two INTjs. I get hives when I hear the words, "you decide." Brrrr.
Both need to learn how to deal with their problems on their own, to develop themselves. The LII needs to learn how to maintain internal emotional support and confidence so as to not constantly differ and be wishy washy, and the EIE needs to learn how to be confident in its own capability to make decisions and believing it is other people's responsibility to tell them "what to do" - to be accountable for themselves.
The LII who desperately needs emotional consistency, social skills, and physical awareness of an ESE is no less pathetic and immature than Kristiina's description of ENFj desperately needing the accountability, confidence, and decisiveness of an LSI.
That's precisely what I don't like about it. A lot of LII's cling to Fe and Si like it were a drug, making them dependent more than they realize. It's rather sappy at times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Carla
Sometimes it also means: "I don't give a damn"Quote:
"You decide" doesn't always mean indecisiveness; it can mean "I know very well what I want, but why should you have to do what I want; and thus why should I choose for you; it is against my nature for me to decide your choice for you".
The INTjs I know aren't wimpy; they strive for independence, and want to take independence as a given in the person they are with also.
But it is true that "You decide" is a lot more passive and dainty sounding.
There is a difference between being appreciative of emotional atmospheres, and how they resonate within youQuote:
Originally Posted by Carla
and
Suck in those emotions like a drug. -- seeking emotionality like a drug.
It doesn't have anything to do with you or the people you know. My condolences if it bothers you, the way I said things.
I am referring to INTjs I've seen who go about things differently.You could say it has to do with some of the people I have met, that I know.
Yes, I know INTjs who are as you described above. But not all of them carry themselves in that way.
What are you referring to?Quote:
Originally Posted by Carla
Okay, where do young ENFj's like to hang out at :) ? I think it was mentioned before that ENFj's like bookstores and art galleries, but what are some other areas do they seem to gravitate to? I can think of school functions in university, such as activities for education majors (I have met a few ENFj's in this area).
I know some older ones that were pretty active in churches. Younger... One I know went into law school with the ultimate goal of becoming a politician. Another is studying to become a brain surgeon.
@ Elro: I will keep that in mind. Thank you.
Yeah I'll look for them :8* :?Quote:
Originally Posted by Herzy
ENFjs are pretty much among the most evenly dispersed types. You can find them pretty much everywhere. For practical purposes, I'd just start with the places you visit/groups you are around most often and see if you can spot any. There's probably a lot within your immediate group or just outside.
They always seem to be interested in some pretty cool things. I think you are right about ENFj's being in many places. Then I guess this is a pretty dumb question then. I apologize, I just could not help it :)
One can find ENFjs anywhere, but unfortunately they're very rare, so ISTjs and their Beta friends have to work harder to find them. I've known a few in leadership roles (SGA, community organizations), groups dealing with political/social activism, outreach organizations (my ENFj cousin was a spokesperson for D.A.R.E.), church organizations (my Grandmother is deeply religious and social), and music and drama clubs. They also have a taste for different cultural activities, so whenever you hear of a free concert or a coffeehouse event, you might see some ENFjs there. The caveat is that you'll likely meet a lot of your conflictors (ENFps) in those same places, but just keep your eyes peeled for :Fe:.
Generally speaking, just go someplace where people are free to be social and open with one another. I met one ENFj in a small-town bar, another at a county fair, and another at a party. My advice to you is to make yourself visible and open to communication, but be yourself. Strong, silent types appeal to ENFjs: they want to uncover the mystery behind them. Good luck on your quest :).
It wasn't a dumb question. I find myself asking where my duals all are a lot of the time (esp. when stressed/bored). Then I meet one in the most random place.
Goddamn, you're lucky... I rarely if ever meet any SLEs :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Baby
:( Yeah, the male ones can be surprisingly solitary and keep to themselves or their close guy friends. It can be hard to tell they are ESTp until you actually start talking to them and then you see their SeTi. They go to parties to break out of their group, though, so you're bound to find a few in their element there. The female ones are more sociable so it's easier to spot for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarlettLux
Yes, the couple SLEs I have known were exactly like that: solitary! You'd think that SLEs wouldn't be that way for some reason, but they just are... and yes, they go to parties here and there, but it's not like I would randomly go up to one. =[ They really intimidate me. Do you have any tips on approaching SLEs or knowing they even are SLEs? And what could I do to get them to approach me? Usually, when I get approached, it is always by :Ne: dominants :?Quote:
Originally Posted by Baby
Well I have no problems approaching people..........than agian I'm an ENFj. :D so I can't really help you.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarlettLux
Bookstores and art galleries?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbean
I see absolutely no reason for this to be characteristic of ENFjs.
More likely is: to be hanging out with family and friends, religious groups and social clubs of various kinds, and very active within this mix, often taken on leadership roles. Or even, networking in various ways. And actively promoting their inner ideals. If there were in an educational setting, they're more apt to be involved with teaching somehow - where learning is dynamic and group-oriented, rather than perusing a bookstore at great lengths, "just for fun." Their seeking of info would be goal-oriented.
my halfpence
lollygagging at their social events, yakking it up.
Thanks to all :)
I just realized a guy I befriended at work and became pretty close with is an ENFj. He's always extremely active politically (diehard bleeding heart liberal), and has done more than a few community service gigs. Most recently at a "Meals on Wheels" kind of thing that prepared meals for hospice patients. Recently quit our cubicle farm-type environment to go to law school in Pittsburgh. He also loved going to the free Friday concerts held by local public radio, opera, and other cultural stuff. Watches lots of documentaries and is also a vegetarian.Quote:
Originally Posted by uninspired
I miss him. :(
At any rate, he's married and despite my monster crush on him, never has looked aside. Very loyal, persevering and trustworthy. Witty and sarcastic too. Never had any trouble keeping up with me. Can be really a bit on the lascivious flirty side too, but all talk. And SO cute. Oh yeah... VERY metrosexual. :wink:
I suspect lots of ENFjs probably marry young and are off the market pretty quickly.
That sucks, there was this one girl that use to work with me that had a crush on me too, but she went back to school and has a boyfriend.Quote:
Originally Posted by aka-kitsune
Think of it conversely, for every ENFj that leaves the market, another 'comes of age' and comes onto the market.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_maguoo
That is what I have been waiting to hear :)
I've found that many ENFjs I know seem to love hosting social gatherings/parties with their friends (especially if they have their own place). Also Fe-subtypes seem drawn towards counter-culture/alternative type settings where open debate of society is encouraged - or they'll encourage it. Ni-subtypes seem better at blending in with the mainstream crowd as they dress less "loud" so it's harder to spot them, if they're at a mainstream bar tho and you talk to them they'll gladly mock all the fake people with you.
Even though they're beta ENFjs seem often to be very inclusive of others and it's easy to get invited to their gatherings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by astralsilky
fuck church. enfjs are more rebellious than you think.
lefty,
enfj
4w5