An Ultimatum.

Hey.


I've been in a strange place for the past year or so. While my priorities have changed dramatically (seemingly for the better), I'm having a hard time reconciling my behavior during my adolescent and teenage years with any other typing. Many (if not, most) of these behaviors are things that I've come to consider destructive and incredibly unappealing (and most of the people I've known during this period can attest to that - I've always been nothing more than a passive nuisance. Corny, awkward and forgettable.), and am glad to have seemingly grown out of, but I figure no good can come out of shaming my past...While I wish I could've been dealt a 'better' hand, it seems I have no choice but to resign myself to my fate.

I'm not sure where I'm trying to go with this, but I just needed to let this out.

What's the ultimatum then? Change or regret?

:) It may be nice to feel like you know your type, but it is perfectly possible to get by fairly well just from seeing things in terms of Information elements and functions as they are used (many people also get by without Socionics of course!).

The worst thing about it is that Ne just seems banal and inconsequential. It does absolutely nothing for me anymore. Even when I 'strived' on it, it never amounted to anything more than mindlessly reading Wikipedia articles, being an annoying pos, and a constant state of restlessness, confusion and dissatisfaction. I was miserable. Life felt dull and colorless. I've only recently known what it was like to feel worthwhile - to have a sense of direction, to be happy, to enjoy the present moment - and it was all by suppressing my natural personality and playing the pretending to be a recluse. I enjoyed it tremendously and convinced myself that it was me...now I feel pressured to return to the monotony of my life before, when I was a needy, ugly, clumsy, charmless, tasteless, talentless, boring, unworldly, boyish idiot savant. Jack of all trades, master of none. My photography is shit.

Edit: my writing's horrible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JWC3

What's the ultimatum then? Change or regret?

---

Dissuade him from self-typing as IEE, or he will do so indefinitely with some some disparaging notion of IEEdom, self-hatred leading him to through away his life one way or another.

you get to choose who you are. youre the boss of yourself.

Socionics type isn't behavior, it isn't goals, it isn't stagnancy. Any person, regardless of type, can grow, develop, improve, and yes, feel lost.

Life still happens, and you still get to choose what you want to do with your life. Some things might be harder for one type than another, but that is where education and experience can give you a leg up.

Who/what is pressuring you to return to being the unhappy you?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by anndelise

Who/what is pressuring you to return to being the unhappy you?

---

I've never known any other way of being. The closest I've come to changing it has been by becoming a complete fraud...my own conception of what an ideal person is supposed to be like. The only alternative seems to be reverting back to the same behavioral patterns that have led people away from me time and time again and have absolutely no appeal to me anymore.

Whats really good for this sort of thing is reflection. Keep a diary, make a point to sit outside without any intention or stuff happening, talk to yourself, whatever really. If you're anything like me it'll prolly be scary and painful at first, but worth it.

As far as fostering a positive mental attitude, change aside, exercise is always good. Even if you don't do enough to feel the benefits it's a nice easy way to percieve yourself as making progress just by doing some push-ups and a 30 second wall sit daily.

Going for a walk is great too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Suedehead

Hey.


I've been in a strange place for the past year or so. While my priorities have changed dramatically (seemingly for the better), I'm having a hard time reconciling my behavior during my adolescent and teenage years with any other typing. Many (if not, most) of these behaviors are things that I've come to consider destructive and incredibly unappealing (and most of the people I've known during this period can attest to that - I've always been nothing more than a passive nuisance. Corny, awkward and forgettable.), and am glad to have seemingly grown out of, but I figure no good can come out of shaming my past...While I wish I could've been dealt a 'better' hand, it seems I have no choice but to resign myself to my fate.

I'm not sure where I'm trying to go with this, but I just needed to let this out.

---

State your date of birth.

don't take anything personally unless it's positive, focus your awareness on things outside yourself at all times, never analyze your own identity. anytime you find yourself 'breaking out of the flow', pull yourself in. Instant self-forgiveness. Ascend 2 the stars.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Suedehead

I've never known any other way of being. The closest I've come to changing it has been by becoming a complete fraud...my own conception of what an ideal person is supposed to be like. The only alternative seems to be reverting back to the same behavioral patterns that have led people away from me time and time again and have absolutely no appeal to me anymore.

---

Striving to incorporate aspects of your ideal into yourself doesn't make you a fraud. Possibly neurotic or unrealistic, but that's different from being a fraud. (Karen Horney described neuroticism as being the gap between the ideal and the real.)

What parts of this ideal did you enjoy? Which did you find comfort in? Which improved your interactions with life (people, situations, yourself, your environment, etc)?

Why can't those positive parts continue to be a part of you?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Suedehead

The worst thing about it is that Ne just seems banal and inconsequential. It does absolutely nothing for me anymore. Even when I 'strived' on it, it never amounted to anything more than mindlessly reading Wikipedia articles, being an annoying pos, and a constant state of restlessness, confusion and dissatisfaction. I was miserable. Life felt dull and colorless. I've only recently known what it was like to feel worthwhile - to have a sense of direction, to be happy, to enjoy the present moment - and it was all by suppressing my natural personality and playing the pretending to be a recluse. I enjoyed it tremendously and convinced myself that it was me...now I feel pressured to return to the monotony of my life before, when I was a needy, ugly, clumsy, charmless, tasteless, talentless, boring, unworldly, boyish idiot savant. Jack of all trades, master of none. My photography is shit.

Edit: my writing's horrible.

---

Get it all out then you will realize you are and were none of those things. I still go with ILI for you.

:hug:

I see you in a completely different light...you are viewing your perceived shadows. we all have shadows...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by anndelise

Striving to incorporate aspects of your ideal into yourself doesn't make you a fraud. Possibly neurotic or unrealistic, but that's different from being a fraud. (Karen Horney described neuroticism as being the gap between the ideal and the real.)

What parts of this ideal did you enjoy? Which did you find comfort in? Which improved your interactions with life (people, situations, yourself, your environment, etc)?

Why can't those positive parts continue to be a part of you?

---

The thing is, alot of it feels unnatural...like something I have to consciously control. At times I'm able to play the role to a tee, and am even able to convince myself that I was always supposed to be this calm, serious, subtle, aloof, decisive guy, and that whatever I was doing before was the result of overcompensation. Usually though, I feel at conflict with myself and I'm constantly getting flashbacks to all the embarrassing shit I did when I was 15-17 that the IEE description only serves to remind me of. There was absolutely nothing redeemable about me then. I was a complete tryhard and still am to a certain extent.

It brought me comfort because I imagined that the people I'd potentially bring into my life (in some distant future) would actually be able to appreciate me. I felt like someone worthwhile...like I was coming into my own.

It hasn't improved my interactions at all. I've practically lost all interest in socializing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rat1

State your date of birth.

---

1994..

You still strike me as more SLI than IEE, but you know yourself best.

Also, I think know what you mean about finding satisfaction and a sense of direction in the present through pretending to be a recluse- I've done the same thing!

But I doubt that you're an awkward, horrible, boyish idiot savant. You seem to be a great person in many ways (and don't think you're just fooling me into thinking so b/c I'm on the internet- I have lazer eyes!) Perhaps your environment isn't a good one for you to interact as yourself in, or perhaps life is just difficult at times. But I feel sure that you have more than your share of redeeming qualities, and that you're probably no more objectively clumsy, charmless, unwordly, etc, than many people your age (or older); it's a mental distortion!

You express different type traits when you're younger, at least according to some
Socionics authors (not quite so mainstream), but in my experience and what I've seen of others, it seems to be true in some capacity.

Type yourself as you are now and when you hit 22 and the brain reaches its adult stage and your type is more set in stone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Suedehead

1994..

---

Oh shit....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rat1

Oh shit....

---

What?

All of your posts are diplomatic and incredibly likable... You remind me of me, but more....stable/better at expressing yourself/nicer.



Then again, I haven't seen your video.


(But I want to).

Where is it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Narc

You express different type traits when you're younger, at least according to some
Socionics authors (not quite so mainstream), but in my experience and what I've seen of others, it seems to be true in some capacity.

Type yourself as you are now and when you hit 22 and the brain reaches its adult stage and your type is more set in stone.

---

25.
The frontal cortex completes maturation at 25.

You seem like good people to me, suedehead. Don't despair (too much), but be grateful for possessing the ability to feel deeply about things and to reflect on yourself. I take pity on the ones who have to do without that.

Being self-critical is a good thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by truck

don't take anything personally unless it's positive, focus your awareness on things outside yourself at all times, never analyze your own identity. anytime you find yourself 'breaking out of the flow', pull yourself in. Instant self-forgiveness. Ascend 2 the stars.

---

This is good advice but it's kind of hard for me to focus my attention away from my ego like that...it feels like I'll lose my grounding. Very few things in the outside world interest me anymore.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Suedehead

The thing is, alot of it feels unnatural...like something I have to consciously control. At times I'm able to play the role to a tee, and am even able to convince myself that I was always supposed to be this calm, serious, subtle, aloof, decisive guy, and that whatever I was doing before was the result of overcompensation. Usually though, I feel at conflict with myself and I'm constantly getting flashbacks to all the embarrassing shit I did when I was 15-17 that the IEE description only serves to remind me of. There was absolutely nothing redeemable about me then. I was a complete tryhard and still am to a certain extent.

It brought me comfort because I imagined that the people I'd potentially bring into my life (in some distant future) would actually be able to appreciate me. I felt like someone worthwhile...like I was coming into my own.

It hasn't improved my interactions at all. I've practically lost all interest in socializing.

---

You're talking about the contexts of parental "guidance", immature and unexperienced peer criticism, overwhelmed teachers, etc. As Narc brought up, you're also under the influence of a not yet matured mind. I know that this doesn't help much, but please don't judge yourself too harshly for being a growing maturing teen. I bet 97% of the posters here have done embarrassing decisions, stupid actions, etc Some that even they can barely admit to themselves. (Including me :oops: )

Part of growing up is making mistakes. LOTS of mistakes. Wisdom comes from learning from those mistakes.
And who better to teach us life lessons than ourselves?

Those flashbacks that plague you, spend some time analyzing them. What was the situation? what did you do? Why did you do what you did? If presented with that type of situation now, what would you do now? What do you hope you would do? How can you help get yourself into the mindset of a person who would do that ideal?

Those parts of yourself that you didn't like...or don't like...what one small doable thing can you do to change that part for your future self? Even small, seemingly insignificant changes can make huge differences down the road.

And finally, look for the positive parts of yourself. Don't be lazy about this, look for it. No matter how small or seemingly stupid you think others might think it, screw them, screw their opinions...find some small aspects to yourself that you like. What the seeker seeks, the finder finds. If all you seek for is the negative, then that is all you will find. So practice seeking the positive. Keep doing this throughout your life, and don't quit without finding at least three really good parts of yourself that YOU like and that YOU appreciate. And to hell with those who don't.

And by doing things like this, you'll start moving away from your embarrassing past towards coming into your own, towards being the kind of person you can appreciate. And this will reflect in your outlook, your behaviors, and your interactions with others. And all that will draw in those people you dream of having in your life.


/soapbox

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JWC3

Whats really good for this sort of thing is reflection. Keep a diary, make a point to sit outside without any intention or stuff happening, talk to yourself, whatever really. If you're anything like me it'll prolly be scary and painful at first, but worth it.

---

how come?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Suedehead

What?

---

Not sure... need the rest of the date to be sure.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bolong

how come?

---

Well, I don't like myself currently. I don't like to be alone with my thoughts. I loath the self-pity and hatred that seems to come so easily to me right now. I don't even like those moments alone in bed waiting for sleep to come. I used to self medicate. I'd take sleeping pills just so I wouldn't have time to reflect on tearing every little detail of myself and my day appart. Thinking that everything I'd done should've been done better, from social interactions to my job to stupid shit like not recycling. I wouldn't even take solace in the effort I was putting fourth, even if I was trying I could try better, try harder, make more progress to fix every little thing about me.

I still get that way sometimes, I'm getting better. I can detail what I'm doing and why I think it's working if that what interests either you or the OP or anyone.

Really though, if you don't face your demons, don't get to know them intimately, you can't beat them. I can't anyway.

So now I accept that sometimes I'm gonna have a bad day, and sometimes I'm going to attack myself so intimately that I'll bring myself to tears. It sucks but I'm still here. Came close, but hasn't killed me yet and I very strongly believe that even if I slip into that place of wrath, there is no fire that cannot be relit. I might cry my fire out, but I've got more matches when I'm done.

As arrogant as it sounds I've come to realize that not even I can stand in my own way, not permanently, not forever.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Suedehead

- I've always been nothing more than a passive nuisance. Corny, awkward and forgettable.), and am glad to have seemingly grown out of, but I figure no good can come out of shaming my past...While I wish I could've been dealt a 'better' hand, it seems I have no choice but to resign myself to my fate.

I'm not sure where I'm trying to go with this, but I just needed to let this out.

---

you sound like you have been depressed for a freakin' long time that you've associated this bleak, low, depressive state with your normal state. depression causes a vicious cycle of negative thoughts that feed and reinforce each other, making it difficult to pull yourself out of a rut. it can suck you in for years as your own thoughts and emotions lead you down even further. i would agree with @truck that you need to look outside of yourself at this point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Suedehead

The worst thing about it is that Ne just seems banal and inconsequential. It does absolutely nothing for me anymore. Even when I 'strived' on it, it never amounted to anything more than mindlessly reading Wikipedia articles, being an annoying pos, and a constant state of restlessness, confusion and dissatisfaction.

---

what about ni? does it do anything for you?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Suedehead

...snip...

---

dude.. happiness is a choice, not something that happens to you. the world isn't a living entity; it's a force that can't be negotiated with. attach your personal fulfillment to forces beyond your control and your life will only sporadically reflect your ambitions.

and as for your past: it's something you'll always have to live with. you can either learn from your mistakes and gain agency and wisdom, or you can choose to live in a personal hell. you freedom to believe what you want is absolute and your life is entirely in your hands.*

take this proverb to heart: write the bad things that happen to you in sand and the good things in marble.


* beyond truly unfortunate circumstances like famine, growing up in a war-torn country, etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Suedehead

This is good advice but it's kind of hard for me to focus my attention away from my ego like that...it feels like I'll lose my grounding. Very few things in the outside world interest me anymore.

---

is it possible you have depression?

(edit- just saw @Nevero's post, but yeah, second it)

I believe you are ESI and enneagram 6.

i'm sorry @Suedehead, I try to read your posts but my eyes are all like "oh, boobies"

I think looking outside yourself may be useful because the world may surprise you. I know that feeling of not being able to do so without falling apart; but it's only through slowly and incrementally doing it that you realize that things can be okay. I also don't know your current life situation or whether that environment is good for you, but maybe you can try to do small things (like socialize without expectations, or whatever else related to school, etc) without wanting or needing it to yield anything nor placing pressure on yourself to do or feel better right away.

Also about the past; it's true that it places people on unequal footing. But I think that having a sense of willpower and agency is important too, towards changing things, and to find that you have to first learn to appreciate and nurture what's positive about yourself. Basically I think you have to be brave and give yourself encouragement even when you believe you don't deserve it. Don't blame yourself for being unable to deal with things right now; just try to treat yourself better and see what you can do to make small positive changes in your life.

Also I agree with what posters have said about depression.

:hug: :hug: :hug:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Suedehead

The thing is, alot of it feels unnatural...like something I have to consciously control. At times I'm able to play the role to a tee, and am even able to convince myself that I was always supposed to be this calm, serious, subtle, aloof, decisive guy, and that whatever I was doing before was the result of overcompensation. Usually though, I feel at conflict with myself and I'm constantly getting flashbacks to all the embarrassing shit I did when I was 15-17 that the IEE description only serves to remind me of. There was absolutely nothing redeemable about me then. I was a complete tryhard and still am to a certain extent.

It brought me comfort because I imagined that the people I'd potentially bring into my life (in some distant future) would actually be able to appreciate me. I felt like someone worthwhile...like I was coming into my own.

It hasn't improved my interactions at all. I've practically lost all interest in socializing.

---

I've been on a "fuck socializing" spree too, and it feels like a great weight has been lifted off of me. The weather's getting more beautiful outside. An iPod full of music you love and a nice open area to chill out in will make a world of difference. Just you, a field of grass, the warming air, the trees coming to life, and you don't have to answer to a damned thing; no idea here, but if your own thoughts are roaring at you, make the music roar louder.

Here's the first song on the first full album from a likely IEE guy who had a big part of his world blow apart with an unfortunate shotgun blast:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imxAeQZjBeI

"this is a call to all my past resignations..."

I'm just a year older then you and I've gone through the same thing you have, I agree with the people above in that you probably have depression. All I can say is if that's the case you're not going to be seeing yourself in an accurate way, and socionics isn't going to be of any use to you.

Thanks everyone.

I'm feeling a bit better today. I know it probably won't last, but I wasn't really expecting my mood to improve any time soon. Today was pretty alright..got a haircut, took a few photos in the city...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JWC3

I still get that way sometimes, I'm getting better. I can detail what I'm doing and why I think it's working if that what interests either you or the OP or anyone.

---

Yes, I'd like to hear about it.

Also,

http://memecrunch.com/meme/2W9P/hang...bear/image.png

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bolong

Yes, I'd like to hear about it.]

---

Sure.

"Getting a good nights rest" Is something people say in a lot of different ways, but mostly that's always been a bit vague for me and not entirely possible since some nights it's in my best interests to attend comedy shows or what have you. Instead I make it a point to get up at the same time every day, regardless of workday or not or if I had to stay out late the night before. Getting up right when my alarm clock goes off has done a lot for normalizing my sleep schedule and it makes the late nights not feel so draining the next day.

On the sleep side of things again, I got all those annoying lights out of my room. Like the vcr clock, the power light on any electronics, all of it got unplugged since I hardly use them anyway, and if I do I just cover them with something before bed.

As soon as I wake up I start doing push-ups and some other minor stuff. It's less of an exercise thing and more of a thing that is difficult enough to keep me from focusing on beating myself up over yesterday 1st thing in the morning.

I've been making an effort to eat well, starting the day out with like a V8 or fruit smoothie and a multivitamin. Not eating out as much is both a health and budget thing, I've got bills to pay too. Lunch is usually a walk around the city to pick up a loaf of day old bread and a hunk of cheese or fruit, which generally costs 3$ at most.

I've been reading body language for dummies and I'm sure you've heard people talk about how body language can affect your mood or dispostition, if not it's a thing people say. So I make an effort to listen to music daily, just so I have something to nod my head to which the book says can put you in a good mood. It works for me, I'm not sure if it's the actual nodding or the fact that I laugh at myself for thinking nodding is going to have any effect at all, but either way it puts a smile on my face. If I'm feeling prticularly anxious about something I sit down, lean back, and put my hands behind my head which is a "comfort" posture, it works better than doing nothing. Other than that just having good sitting and standing posture and keeping my hands out of my pockets. Little shit.

That's all pretty general stuff that most anyone can do. Outside of that I try to fill my free time, learning guitar, performing stand-up, writting a limmerick book, exercising, hanging out with friends, reading the books everyone here suggested I reivew, anything I can really. I do enjoy those things, even if I'm sour in the moment and they all are skills I can foster, which will eventually be far more valuable to me than just wasting time taking sleep pills or doing drugs to avoid myself.

Socially if I feel I've accidentally put my foot in my mouth for some perceived slight I make a point to apologize, which keeps me from beating myself up for days when universally people just laugh at my apology/insecurity and tell me they didn't think anything negative in the first place.

Oh, and I like to fuck with the student loan people when they call.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JWC3

Sure.

"Getting a good nights rest" Is something people say in a lot of different ways, but mostly that's always been a bit vague for me and not entirely possible since some nights it's in my best interests to attend comedy shows or what have you. Instead I make it a point to get up at the same time every day, regardless of workday or not or if I had to stay out late the night before. Getting up right when my alarm clock goes off has done a lot for normalizing my sleep schedule and it makes the late nights not feel so draining the next day.

On the sleep side of things again, I got all those annoying lights out of my room. Like the vcr clock, the power light on any electronics, all of it got unplugged since I hardly use them anyway, and if I do I just cover them with something before bed.

As soon as I wake up I start doing push-ups and some other minor stuff. It's less of an exercise thing and more of a thing that is difficult enough to keep me from focusing on beating myself up over yesterday 1st thing in the morning.

I've been making an effort to eat well, starting the day out with like a V8 or fruit smoothie and a multivitamin. Not eating out as much is both a health and budget thing, I've got bills to pay too. Lunch is usually a walk around the city to pick up a loaf of day old bread and a hunk of cheese or fruit, which generally costs 3$ at most.

I've been reading body language for dummies and I'm sure you've heard people talk about how body language can affect your mood or dispostition, if not it's a thing people say. So I make an effort to listen to music daily, just so I have something to nod my head to which the book says can put you in a good mood. It works for me, I'm not sure if it's the actual nodding or the fact that I laugh at myself for thinking nodding is going to have any effect at all, but either way it puts a smile on my face. If I'm feeling prticularly anxious about something I sit down, lean back, and put my hands behind my head which is a "comfort" posture, it works better than doing nothing. Other than that just having good sitting and standing posture and keeping my hands out of my pockets. Little shit.

That's all pretty general stuff that most anyone can do. Outside of that I try to fill my free time, learning guitar, performing stand-up, writting a limmerick book, exercising, hanging out with friends, reading the books everyone here suggested I reivew, anything I can really. I do enjoy those things, even if I'm sour in the moment and they all are skills I can foster, which will eventually be far more valuable to me than just wasting time taking sleep pills or doing drugs to avoid myself.

Socially if I feel I've accidentally put my foot in my mouth for some perceived slight I make a point to apologize, which keeps me from beating myself up for days when universally people just laugh at my apology/insecurity and tell me they didn't think anything negative in the first place.

Oh, and I like to fuck with the student loan people when they call.

---

haha.

I relate to a lot of stuff you say here, and I tried doing the same things when I was going through the worst phase of my depression. I usually never was able to wake up as early as I wanted though, or do exercise, or eat lunch at the right time.. I would get so stuck that it would never even occur to me that I should play music, and if I did think of it, I would get scared that I might hear something that triggers a memory and get depressed all over again. But if it happened that I put something on without thinking about it, the music would lift my mood so much that I would wonder what I was so upset about in the first place.

I've been on a track that I'm happy with for quite some time now, but once in a while I'll think of something depressing (usually a distorted memory of my past) and then I feel like I can't deal with the world at all - and I miss work/classes that whole day.

But one thing I've realized, is that all that good advice given to depressed people seems to be Si stuff. Getting good sleep, eating right, getting exercise. At least I see it as Si stuff. And for me, that becomes a "routine" in my head. When I put too much emphasis on this routine, it actually messes everything up. Probably bc when I pay attention to that I'm suppressing my ego function.

For example, if I have a big day the next day, and I fret about eating early, and getting to bed early, I will, without fail, not get any sleep that night and everything will go wrong the next day. And yet, I feel this paranoia sometimes that I should follow this routine, that bc of my depression I've lost my confidence in myself and can't think straight, so I should stick to the routine so I don't fuck up.

I had a big day today too, but last night my bf and I were drinking (we drink every night), watching some videos and talking, and we got excited for some reason with our conversation so we drank more than usual, stayed up really late, forgot to eat dinner... and today I had a great day. I felt like I could take on anything. And that I can move forward now to the next step, which is making this feeling the "norm."

Also, inspiration > comfort.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bolong

haha.

I relate to a lot of stuff you say here, and I tried doing the same things when I was going through the worst phase of my depression. I usually never was able to wake up as early as I wanted though, or do exercise, or eat lunch at the right time.. I would get so stuck that it would never even occur to me that I should play music, and if I did think of it, I would get scared that I might hear something that triggers a memory and get depressed all over again. But if it happened that I put something on without thinking about it, the music would lift my mood so much that I would wonder what I was so upset about in the first place.

I've been on a track that I'm happy with for quite some time now, but once in a while I'll think of something depressing (usually a distorted memory of my past) and then I feel like I can't deal with the world at all - and I miss work/classes that whole day.

But one thing I've realized, is that all that good advice given to depressed people seems to be Si stuff. Getting good sleep, eating right, getting exercise. At least I see it as Si stuff. And for me, that becomes a "routine" in my head. When I put too much emphasis on this routine, it actually messes everything up. Probably bc when I pay attention to that I'm suppressing my ego function.

For example, if I have a big day the next day, and I fret about eating early, and getting to bed early, I will, without fail, not get any sleep that night and everything will go wrong the next day. And yet, I feel this paranoia sometimes that I should follow this routine, that bc of my depression I've lost my confidence in myself and can't think straight, so I should stick to the routine so I don't fuck up.

I had a big day today too, but last night my bf and I were drinking (we drink every night), watching some videos and talking, and we got excited for some reason with our conversation so we drank more than usual, stayed up really late, forgot to eat dinner... and today I had a great day. I felt like I could take on anything. And that I can move forward now to the next step, which is making this feeling the "norm."

Also, inspiration > comfort.

---

Whatever works :)

Personally I don't like being subjected to my own flighty emotional state. Jubilant or despondent it's more important that I know I can get the things done I know I want to do and, doing them well inspite of how I feel in the moment is empowering for me.

Through committed action my sentiment becomes my slave. It damn well better feel motivated and inspired cause I've got shit to do and I'm not waiting for a good day.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nevero

you sound like you have been depressed for a freakin' long time that you've associated this bleak, low, depressive state with your normal state. depression causes a vicious cycle of negative thoughts that feed and reinforce each other, making it difficult to pull yourself out of a rut. it can suck you in for years as your own thoughts and emotions lead you down even further. i would agree with @truck that you need to look outside of yourself at this point.


what about ni? does it do anything for you?

---

I think I find it much more satisfying to have one, refined vision of where my life is headed, as opposed to just relaxing or testing the waters with random things that don't lead anywhere, and find it a little bit frustrating when the latter approach is suggested, although I know they mean well. I can see myself doing alot of that, but find it ultimately unfulfilling.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Suedehead

I think I find it much more satisfying to have one, refined vision of where my life is headed, as opposed to just relaxing or testing the waters with random things that don't lead anywhere, and find it a little bit frustrating when the latter approach is suggested, although I know they mean well. I can see myself doing alot of that, but find it ultimately unfulfilling.

---

Pardon me if this has already been answered in this thread, I can get a little self-absorbed at times, but where are you headed now?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JWC3

Pardon me if this has already been answered in this thread, I can get a little self-absorbed at times, but where are you headed now?

---

It's pretty embarrassing to mention it now. I was previously working on becoming more self-sufficient by applying for jobs for practical reasons (don't like spending my parents' money), and was hoping to eventually stack up my resume, make a few connections, refine my 'craft' over the next few years, and make my way into a field of choice through internships and the like. I live fairly close to where a lot of the stuff I'm interested in is happening and I figured I should take advantage of it.

Of course, this is all coming from a very naive perspective and a lot of what I've described seems pretty spotty, but that's more or less how I pictured it at the time. I'm not sure where that's gone now and I can't help but feel silly for thinking all that up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Suedehead

It's pretty embarrassing to mention it now. I was previously working on becoming more self-sufficient by applying for jobs for practical reasons (don't like spending my parents' money), and was hoping to eventually stack up my resume, make a few connections, refine my 'craft' over the next few years, and make my way into a field of choice through internships and the like. I live fairly close to where a lot of the stuff I'm interested in is happening and I figured I should take advantage of it.

Of course, this is all coming from a very naive perspective and a lot of what I've described seems pretty spotty, but that's how I pictured it at the time. I'm not sure where that's gone now and I can't help but feel silly for thinking all that up.

---

Why's that silly? I'm a little naive myself but I'm not sure which part of that is supposed to not work :s

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JWC3

Jubilant or despondent it's more important that I know I can get the things done I know I want to do and, doing them well inspite of how I feel in the moment is empowering for me.

---

Complete opposite for me. Need my mental state sorted first, then all the shit I need to get done just gets done.

But yeah, whatever works :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bolong

Complete opposite for me. Need my mental state sorted first, then all the shit I need to get done just gets done.

But yeah, whatever works :)

---

Glad to hear you're getting it sorted. It's nice to know that you're out there beat'n the funk same as me :]

I'm having such a hard time behaving naturally, that is, thinking bout myself outside of the lens of typology.

One minute I'll notice behaviors that seems to be indicative ESI, Gamma, IJ-temperament or Se-ego, and I always welcome and strive off of these moments because it seems like I'll actually be able to make something out of myself - like I'll be someone who's worth taken seriously. I feel confident, motivated, calm, present, principled, disciplined, purposeful, strong, attractive, etc. But could this possibly be me?

In moments where I feel scattered, directionless, anxious, awkward, depressed or have a difficult time enjoying the present moment, I start to view myself as IEE and feel as if I'm plagued to live a life of meaningless self-indulgence, clumsiness, infantile romance, long-term stagnancy, and being clothed/fed by an SxI. I find these moments frightening, disgusting and insatiable, as if I'm losing a grip on 'myself', but perhaps this is what my life was supposed to be like all along. It's so petty and illogical, but I can't seem to help it. It's a sign of the lowest form of intelligence and immaturity. You realize how base and meaningless your entire life once your forced to rely on something like this for a sense of value. It's awful/bizarre and I wish it would end. I can't tell which is me anymore. I feel malleable. I regret ever delving into typology, it feels like I'm being forced to choose my own fate, to become some caricature that I've never cared to be, but will inevitably exemplify subconsciously. It pains me to know that if I'm indeed Ne-ego, I'll eventually end up giving up on the few things that keep me alive - I'll never be skilled at anything.

I've turned something as neutral as a sequence of information elements into a choice between this (Se):

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-C8I8RAvL5P...DylanRiederjpg

and this (Ne):

http://hypetrak.com/images/2012/03/nardwuar.jpg

I am so happy I didn't get into typology at your age. I was busy with my writing, poetry, reading fantasy and music. I feel for you though, all the frustration inside. If you can focus on your photography and things that make you feel better about yourself... things will change. Easier said than done but it is the best way to figure yourself out. All that other stuff is garbage thrown at us from outside influences telling us what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. Do you. That's the best I got for you.

Sounds like; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrusive_thoughts

You acknowledge that your negative self perception is irrational, yet it still impacts you in this way. Please go see a doctor about this. Depression is just an illness, you can't rationalize your way out of it in the same way you can't rationalize your way out of a broken leg. It's not your fault and your way of fighting it leads to you blaming and shaming yourself, which perpetuates the cycle.

I wish I could express in a softer way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Suedehead

...it feels like I'm being forced to choose my own fate, to become some caricature that I've never cared to be,

---

You have it right.
What else do you need to know? You aren't a caricature.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mfckr

Type doesn't have to be deeply integrated into your self-concept; most wouldn't regard shoe sizes, or food allergies, etc. as self-definitive, why should sociotype be any different?

---

i remember you telling me something like this a long time ago and its good advice but at the time it seemed impossible not to think that way cuz i was examining everything about myself and its really hard to do that without attaching any sort of value judgment to the things you find inside or to the things you read about for comparison. and when you relate to descriptions that you have a negative opinion of (whether because of forer effect or actual similarity or a tendency to be self-disparaging) its really hard to just be okay with that. well, for me.

there was this mergy-ness, too, not knowing where exactly i started and ended overlapping with type concepts, and thinking of type as "the map and not the territory" helped a lot with that. if your type doesn't match your self concept, then it IS NOT YOU, EVERY TIME. typology is nothing, it is a thought, its the air, but you are real. never second guess that. @Suedehead

people have said i lack a sense of self but thats bullshit. the self is not a painting that you can describe in an essay that someone could read and then expect it to look the same when they saw it later. if it was, then it could be "lost." or duplicated. but an imposter can put on your clothes and repeat your phrases and do everything the same as you but anybody who actually knew you would catch on. because the self is something else that can't be put into words and everything else is just ...shoe sizes and food allergies, lol. which is maybe what you were trying to say all along but i had to write all this out to get there.

@Suedehead regarding your yesterday's post - you seem to be at a crossroads of sorts in your life around this time when you feel a need to choose a direction. Imho while it's important to choose a direction and try - this doesn't mean that a decision you make now is going to be a deciding factor for how your whole life is supposed to play out. We make various decisions that change the course of our lives a bit daily and sometimes bigger ones that change our lives even more.
You are first and foremost a person, the typology is just and addition. Try using it as a means of explaining and understanding some of your and other people's qualities. But this doesn't dictate what kind of person you can be. It might be difficult at this point if you're going through a rough patch, but try seeing beyond it. Se-ego doesn't have to be "cool and edgy" and Ne-ego doesn't have to be nerdy. If you want to be a certain kind of person - work towards it, don't let "type" limit you, especially when you aren't even certain of a type. You treat it like a "curse", but maybe it's a "blessing". Please also keep in mind that while we all have our weaknesses, this doesn't mean we can't work on them and improve them to some point, to make our lives a bit easier and more enjoyable.

Oh and on a lighter note, being fed by SXIs isn't such a bad way to live... ;) but tbh if socionics makes sense, then the thought of "getting" what a "dual" is supposed to "provide" shouldn't be repulsive... the few IXEs I've met in my life would jump up with joy on the thought of smn taking care of them the way you had described with some disgust. It seems that if this process in your mind right now is using Ne - it is using it to come up with negative scenarios and Ne-egos, especially Ne-leads would theoretically be more inclined to come up with positive scenarios or at least half half.

Not sure if Ne leads would think of positive scenarios at least half the time. We supposedly have -Ne and are negativists.

I think you need to be kinder to yourself, Suedehead. Everyone does stupid stuff as a teenager. That's what the teenage years are for. Are there people who aren't embarrassed of their teenage selves?

And it does sound like it might have reached the point of depression. Hugs! If Socionics is making you more depressed, ignore it. I mean you can hang out here and type celebrities and post in Anything Goes and in chat if you want, but don't worry about your type. Being in a relaxed, happy place is more likely to lead your life in the direction you want then understanding Socionics will.

Yeah, I think you're stuck in a negative mental loop Suedehead. Don't torture yourself with these thoughts- none of them make sense. Regardless of socionics type, you can keep your skills and your interests b/c you love them, and with time you will surely get better.

Not sure if this is helpful:

It's okay also to not sort of force yourself to believe shitty things about yourself in order to "not accidentally forget about your bad traits." Pushing yourself away from that place mentally every time it comes is totally okay, and might do some good! Look outside yourself, the answers are not within.

PS- I think most people are scattered sometimes (like your description of IEE) and determined other times (like your description of ESI) lol. Doesn't mean you can't accomplish stuff. :D

Is there a way you can kinda start over somewhere?

..That's honestly what helped me a ton: getting away from family, crap friends of high school... I did the nanny thing in Europe for a year. semester abroad? be a tourguide?.. experiences alone are kinda what make me feel more grounded, less reliant on things and people that I know. It toughened me up quite a bit organically and made me slightly more optimistic.


I'd pack up again in a second if I didn't have the school thing going on right now.

@Slacker - I was thinking about my personal observations of the few IEEs, ILEs and SLIs I've met... Ne-egos seemed to be capable of coming up with negative scenarios but then come up with positive counter-scenarios and kind of balance... non Ne-egos seemed to have more trouble with coming up with positive counter-scenarios (longer time to balance, but it can be learned)
maybe this is ntr though and those could be a coincidence of those particular people and their types

(I'm speaking from outside of depressive states)

however @Suedehead when I read through this thread it does sound quite depressive - and this is an unhealthy cycle... :( I agree with @lemontrees that it's good to look outside yourself in such a state (I'm not saying that this is easy).
Try finding sth positive to do (anything, really, sth you might enjoy, it doesn't have to be special, it can be very simple).
Focusing entirely on introspection when depressed will lead to coming up with all sorts of negative and critical thoughts which only feed the negative outlook and create a vicious circle.
Maybe watch a film you like, drink warm cocoa, go for a walk some place you like, watch the sunset... - anything, all those little things will keep adding up to lift your mood a bit and the better the mood the more you'll start noticing positive possibilities in your life

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lungs

i remember you telling me something like this a long time ago and its good advice but at the time it seemed impossible not to think that way cuz i was examining everything about myself and its really hard to do that without attaching any sort of value judgment to the things you find inside or to the things you read about for comparison. and when you relate to descriptions that you have a negative opinion of (whether because of forer effect or actual similarity or a tendency to be self-disparaging) its really hard to just be okay with that. well, for me.

there was this mergy-ness, too, not knowing where exactly i started and ended overlapping with type concepts, and thinking of type as "the map and not the territory" helped a lot with that. if your type doesn't match your self concept, then it IS NOT YOU, EVERY TIME. typology is nothing, it is a thought, its the air, but you are real. never second guess that. @Suedehead

people have said i lack a sense of self but thats bullshit. the self is not a painting that you can describe in an essay that someone could read and then expect it to look the same when they saw it later. if it was, then it could be "lost." or duplicated. but an imposter can put on your clothes and repeat your phrases and do everything the same as you but anybody who actually knew you would catch on. because the self is something else that can't be put into words and everything else is just ...shoe sizes and food allergies, lol. which is maybe what you were trying to say all along but i had to write all this out to get there.

---

Wow, thank you for this. You and everyone else...I'm surprised there's anyone who could actually relate to what I've gone through. It's surreal. You've always seemed solid to me, and my perception of you hasn't changed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by blackburry

Is there a way you can kinda start over somewhere?

..That's honestly what helped me a ton: getting away from family, crap friends of high school... I did the nanny thing in Europe for a year. semester abroad? be a tourguide?.. experiences alone are kinda what make me feel more grounded, less reliant on things and people that I know. It toughened me up quite a bit organically and made me slightly more optimistic.


I'd pack up again in a second if I didn't have the school thing going on right now.

---

Man, I'd love to. At this point in my life however, I'm not sure I'm comfortable making that drastic of a change without having a clear sense of where I'm going with it. It has to lead me somewhere. I can't just do something new for it's own sake. I know doing something like that could potentially be a catalyst, but I don't know...

I apologize for being so flaky and stubborn here, since this is good advise, but yeah..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aisa

@Suedehead regarding your yesterday's post - you seem to be at a crossroads of sorts in your life around this time when you feel a need to choose a direction. Imho while it's important to choose a direction and try - this doesn't mean that a decision you make now is going to be a deciding factor for how your whole life is supposed to play out. We make various decisions that change the course of our lives a bit daily and sometimes bigger ones that change our lives even more.
You are first and foremost a person, the typology is just and addition. Try using it as a means of explaining and understanding some of your and other people's qualities. But this doesn't dictate what kind of person you can be. It might be difficult at this point if you're going through a rough patch, but try seeing beyond it. Se-ego doesn't have to be "cool and edgy" and Ne-ego doesn't have to be nerdy. If you want to be a certain kind of person - work towards it, don't let "type" limit you, especially when you aren't even certain of a type. You treat it like a "curse", but maybe it's a "blessing". Please also keep in mind that while we all have our weaknesses, this doesn't mean we can't work on them and improve them to some point, to make our lives a bit easier and more enjoyable.

Oh and on a lighter note, being fed by SXIs isn't such a bad way to live... ;) but tbh if socionics makes sense, then the thought of "getting" what a "dual" is supposed to "provide" shouldn't be repulsive... the few IXEs I've met in my life would jump up with joy on the thought of smn taking care of them the way you had described with some disgust. It seems that if this process in your mind right now is using Ne - it is using it to come up with negative scenarios and Ne-egos, especially Ne-leads would theoretically be more inclined to come up with positive scenarios or at least half half.

---

There's something about that sort of lifestyle that makes me feel restless and complacent, like I've resigned myself. Of course, these are my conascious thoughts about Delta duality, but how do I know that this isn't something that I subconsciously yearn for? And if so, what does this say about me and the way I've chosen to define my life? Maybe nothing. Ever since I started getting into socionics my ego is constantly being prodded with these sort questions, constantly forcing myself to reassess my motivations and perception of self. It almost feels like my entire life is just sick joke when I notice these contradictions between my sense of self, and what's supposedly my natural 'role' within the socion. I realize that I'm backtracking here since you guys have done a good job of re-contextualizing things for me, but this is basically what I've had to deal with for so long.

Going back to the subject of duality, it's not like I've lacked exposure to my supposed duals either, since my mom seems to be an SEI, while my dad seems to be Delta ST (I'm guessing either LSE, or SLI-Te. He could be pretty lazy at times.). While my relationship with my mother has been pleasant with a few disagreements here and there, I've always felt somewhat distant from my father. As much as it shames me to say it, I always found him somewhat embarassing. Even at my lowest moments, he was never capable of giving me advice that was relevant to me. What that says about my type? Can't really say for sure, and it's not like he's representative of all Delta ST's either. And hey, who's to say I've even typed him correctly? He was 'serious' (superficially. from a socionics standpoint? I don't know), conservative in outlook, comfort-seeking, and what else? It's inconclusive. And if he were in fact a Delta ST and I wanted to make some sort of case for ESI, he'd be either my semi-dual or benefactor, which doesn't add up either.

When I was younger I felt the same about my mom that you do about your dad and in socionics she is my:

Quote:

---

Activation is a very common relationship for friendship. Activation is similar to duality in that each person provides those kinds of information that the other most expects, however, the emphasis is always somewhat different than subconsciously expected. Partners are able to provide each other with an abundance of useful information and assistance, but lead separate lives and make decisions based on criteria that don't seem too important to the other.
Activation partners who become close and discuss their strivings and personal worldviews often are struck by how radically different they are, despite the relative ease and benefit of communication. As opposed to duals, who tend to strive for the same things but from differing, though compatible angles, activation partners' approaches to achieving their goals tend to be fundamentally incompatible, due largely to the difference in rationality and irrationality. This means that while activation partners can talk and share their common hobbies with ease, they tend to view each other as separate entities with separate lifestyles and plans.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Suedehead

There's something about that sort of lifestyle that makes me feel restless and complacent, like I've resigned myself. Of course, these are my conascious thoughts about Delta duality, but how do I know that this isn't something that I subconsciously yearn for? And if so, what does this say about me and the way I've chosen to define my life? Maybe nothing. Ever since I started getting into socionics my ego is constantly being prodded with these sort questions, constantly forcing myself to reassess my motivations and perception of self. It almost feels like my entire life is just sick joke when I notice these contradictions between my sense of self, and what's supposedly my natural 'role' within the socion. I realize that I'm backtracking here since you guys have done a good job of re-contextualizing things for me, but this is basically what I've had to deal with for so long.

---

hmm... ok the way I understand you (correct me if I'm wrong) is that at this point in time you've assumed that Delta duality means people just focus on being comfortable and aimlessly sailing through life whenever wind happens to blow them over to... while this can certainly be a part of a relaxed lifestyle - not chasing after too much and finding joy in "the little things", by no means should this be the limit and end-all be-all.
The way I understand duality is two people who understand each other and the more they dare to open up and communicate, the more they realise how much they have in common despite the surface differences. It's having someone who's there for you and is your "cheerleader" hoping for you to succeed and supporting you through just being there but also giving you advice that helps you get out of the rut when you're stuck or look at sth from a different angle that enables you to keep on moving forward to your chosen direction.
I don't think Delta duality (or any quadra duality for that matter) defines that smn wouldn't/shouldn't/won't keep on developing and striving to achieve things they dream of in life. In fact, the whole point of duality is quite the opposite from my pov.

Quote:

---

Going back to the subject of duality, it's not like I've lacked exposure to my supposed duals either, since my mom seems to be an SEI, while my dad seems to be Delta ST (I'm guessing either LSE, or SLI-Te. He could be pretty lazy at times.). While my relationship with my mother has been pleasant with a few disagreements here and there, I've always felt somewhat distant from my father. As much as it shames me to say it, I always found him somewhat embarassing. Even at my lowest moments, he was never capable of giving me advice that was relevant to me. What that says about my type? Can't really say for sure, and it's not like he's representative of all Delta ST's either. And hey, who's to say I've even typed him correctly? He was 'serious' (superficially. from a socionics standpoint? I don't know), conservative in outlook, comfort-seeking, and what else? It's inconclusive. And if he were in fact a Delta ST and I wanted to make some sort of case for ESI, he'd be either my semi-dual or benefactor, which doesn't add up either.

---

This sentence keeps on being repeated and I think for a reason: "not every dual is going to make your dreams come true". Idk how having a dual parent would have felt like, so pls bare that I'm not writing from experience, however parent-child relationship is a different bond than a romantic one. There are subjects difficult to discuss with one's parents in general, I'm sure you know and feel this to some extent. I've dated an IEE guy before ever meeting my husband and he was a great person, but this wasn't "it" for me. My husband is an IEE most likely and he is "it". Still, type isn't everything. A particular person counts.
And tbh I find this idea of "consciously" seeking out "duals" quite unsettling. I think following instincts is how people should date and decide upon forming relationships. The duality idea seems to be a bit of a trap. If two people are just being themselves and feel good together, don't argue all the time and take the time to actually get to know each other - then this is a good basis for forming a relationship - and if socionics makes sense - then it gives a chance for those people actually being "duals"... But this should be natural. Otherwise this just feeds imagination and might lead to looking at other people through "dual"/"non-dual" lense... and putting expectations on people a person meets that they might not necessarily fullfill - not all values, dreams and life-ideas can be compromised upon and those issues are important when thinking of building life together with a loved one. A dual can be someone easy to communicate with, but at the same time, you might be not attracted to them, or intellectually incompatible or want things in life that exclude both of you having your "way"... I could go on. (And then there's the idea of mistypings...)

I don't think that a family member not being able to give you advice you needed is type related. So it seems our conclusions on this part seem to be similar.