PLEASE type me - IEI or EII?

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Originally Posted by darya

Ok interesting....I have to admit I'm not familiar enough with IM elements, so I feel like I'm not competent enough to comment on that, but I'm not SEE in a million years. I can buy IEE or even SEI (?), but not SEE. If you would know me IRL, you would never type me as that.

I am definitely intuitive, I just didn't focus on that part in my description, because I find it hard to describe in English plus all I wanted to know was what kind of temperament I have (rational/irrational), so I described more of an superficial part of myself.

I am quite cerebral, always researching new topics that interest me (always abstract topics like sociology, psychology), I read a lot, ...I am completely inside my head and detached most of the time,overthinking and overanalizing everything, I can't shut my brain off).
People have to snap fingers in front of my face to get me back to earth (literally). Besides I am completely oblivious to my surrounding, run into things, never notice people, am bad at sports, etc...I am very intuitive about people and relationships and my friends are always fascinated by my insights. This and writing is what I excell at (I realize I suck at writing in English and come off as a ditz:hide:).
@Maritsa, I am perfectly aware of the sarcasm and am very sarcastic myself, but I'm only here to figure out my type, so I ignored it and answered the questions so I can provide as many information as possible. IRL I would banter back and forth, but I don't want this thread to become a trainwreck with no useful feedback;)

Whatever, everybody has their own opinion, thanks so much for the thought you've put into this.

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I wouldn't call either Sociology and Psychology as abstract topics as both interact with read data, real people, real information regarding people.

Why does everyone get offended when someone suggests they're SEE

I mean, EII is much worse :shifty:

Interaction with material objects makes him/her a realist hence S
Interaction with personal values brings in Fi either ego, activating or block 6 and not ignoring
Being easily offended trying to be confirmed or find confirmation for an already convinced self typing becomes a territory of insecurity and Se especially when trying to align all other opinions towards one's already held objective which is SEE.

My typing is final

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Originally Posted by Maritsa

I'm still considering that the person is too superficial for Beta (?) but is definitely a good fit in Gamma. Lots of Fi...I feel like X, Y, Z....anyway, a Realist (Se) who relates things with their ethical values (Fi)

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Maritsa ....?!! :) You find Betas profound. I grasp a bit of SEE vibe ...it may come from Sx first though. She says she's often non-assertive and doesn't feel tough enough. She likes rude, obscene jokes as offensive as possible ...how's that not fucked-up Beta. Jk. She's looking for a "soulmate" , not a getting-down-and dirty-partner (NF) ...although that one ironically (lol) kinda fits the profile of SLE cause he has to save her from the mundane reality (IEI E4) and to be confident, blunt , at best E7 --- Sle and E7 get on like horse and carriage.

Well what topics then don't interact with real data ? I meant to say that I'm very analitical.(seeing the big picture, noticing patterns, reading between the lines and seeing the hidden meanings and agendas behind people actions, seeing all the possibilities,...). I don't deal with cold facts and don't notice details. I'm the most unpractical and unpragmatic person I know. Most of the time I don't live in the present, but thinking about present and future (daydreaming, thinking again and again about past events, thinking up scenarios might happen in the future). I am just not here and now person (unless other people get me down to earth). Isn't that an indicator for intuition or am I missing something?

And what about my other concerns about your typing?

She (op) thinks social extroversion/introversion equals socionics extroversion/introversion.

iei's in my opinion counter attack in a different way

SEE stands as is.

Also, she listed offensive jokes as part of her group behavior iirc, isn't that gamma style? (Not to sure, I think gammas are mean and offensive ;) )

also, even if (and I'm not saying she is) Maritsa is usually wrong that doesn't mean she's wrong this time! My typical are never off!!! ;)

She also misunderstands most functions.

op, I'd say read a little bit of the articles before defending, you'll get more of the terminology right as usage of terms differs considerably with laymen use

(or chat with Hkkmr about it)

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Originally Posted by AshSun

Maritsa ....?!! :) You find Betas profound. I grasp a bit of SEE vibe ...it may come from Sx first though. She says she's often non-assertive and doesn't feel tough enough. She likes rude, obscene jokes as offensive as possible ...how's that not fucked-up Beta. Jk. She's looking for a "soulmate" , not a getting-down-and dirty-partner (NF) ...although that one ironically (lol) kinda fits the profile of SLE cause he has to save from the mundane reality (IEI E4) and to be confident, blunt , at best E7 --- Sle and E7 get on like horse and carriage.

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What she says and how she says it is in conflict. She's not iei, her communication style doesn't match.

I don't catch delta vibes so gamma (alpha is def out)

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Originally Posted by AshSun

Maritsa ....?!! :) You find Betas profound. I grasp a bit of SEE vibe ...it may come from Sx first though. She says she's often non-assertive and doesn't feel tough enough. She likes rude, obscene jokes as offensive as possible ...how's that not fucked-up Beta. Jk. She's looking for a "soulmate" , not a getting-down-and dirty-partner (NF) ...although that one ironically (lol) kinda fits the profile of SLE cause he has to save from the mundane reality (IEI E4) and to be confident, blunt , at best E7 --- Sle and E7 get on like horse and carriage.

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dear lord, someone gets it:hug:it's not that I'm offended being typed SEE, it's just way fucking off. In fact I find EII much worse (I would hate to be some kind of Saint Mary type), but I considered it, cause it made some sense (being all nonassertive, sweet, gentle and non-confrontational). I'm not drooling on the thought of being IEI ffs.

Turns out offensive jokes ARE beta territory, whatdojaknow ;)

still, @darya; even if you say your not confrontational you do head but with Maritsa, defend your view very vehemently...

compare it for instance with The whole English behavior when she first came on the site and you'll see how at least on this forum you come across ass sensing extroverted (her being either sensing or intuitive introverted).

its like this: if you have to say you're a lady you're probably not, same thing with being non confrontational, quiet etc, if you scream "I'm quiet!!!" People wil not beleve you ;)

i type you gamma because of that.

i admit i'm crap at terminology, but i read an excessive definition of socionics introversion/extraversion and i'm still definitely an introvert. I need others to come to me, have low nergy levels, am lazy, have a few but very deep interests, don't have many acquaintances, am focused on conserving as much energy as possible (for a few people and interests i really care about, otherwise i ran out of it), am a very good listener - i listen to all extraverted people at work for hours, am shy, am shit scared of initiating anything, command anything or even raising my voice in unfamiliar environments, hate new responsibilities, and the list goes on and on and on. Basically all that extroverts are, I am not:lol:

i just don't understand how you can ignore all this information about me (why would I make this up?), if my communication style supposedly doesn't match? Why do definitions in socionics even exist if you can blatantly ignore them? Or why do I repeatedly test IEI on everything? So many questions:lol:

Is it possible I have a really strong sx variant (which I think I do) and it's throwing things off?

^^^^^^ i think it´s just his way of very indirectly asking for extra typing material ...he probably wants to see pics of you

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Originally Posted by Reficulris

its like this: if you have to say you're a lady you're probably not, same thing with being non confrontational, quiet etc, if you scream "I'm quiet!!!" People wil not beleve you ;)

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Well I'm definitely not a lady, that's for sure:lol: ok, fair enough, i get what you mean. I'm just really quiet and shy IRL. This is a forum, ofc I can't just be quiet, otherwise I wouldn't learn anything new. And I'm fighting because I'm really really really passionate about this topic and super sure about my ability of analyzing people (myself and others) ;)

haha that's cool, i'm trolling anyway. If you want a good analysis first chat a bit on the shoutbox, because really, how you communicate may say more than what you communicate in determining your type.

also, I'm socially introverted but probably have a base extroverted function (Also, i'm more quiet irl than on the internet) so, I understand where you come from. Visit beta quadra and see how you feel at ease, you might be a particularly digitally loud IEI for all I know.

Finally, don't take anything I say seriously (including this), i'm the court jesters's jester ;)

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Originally Posted by AshSun

^^^^^^ i think it´s just his way of very indirectly asking for extra typing material ...he probably wants to see pics of you

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rofl, let's completely piss me of until I post the pics:lol:. too shy for that. the batshit crazy ones are better left uknown.

And what's really ironic about me being annoyingly loud here, is that this is the first forum i have ever posted in in my life, which says a lot since i spend at least 50% of my free time on the internet/forums. I'm always feeling too shy to even contribute anything and I was super nervous before I posted herehttp://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ies/shifty.gif I just reached a point where I wanted to explode in frustration because of socionic typings and ended spilling my soul herehttp://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...icon_smile.gif

Pics or it didnt happen!!!

if youre really attractieve ill adopt you in my alpha harem!!

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Originally Posted by Maritsa

I wouldn't call either Sociology and Psychology as abstract topics as both interact with read data, real people, real information regarding people.

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now you´re gonna tell me the only sciences verging on abstract are math cause it´s about numbers which cannot be grabbed and touched. and philosophy cause it talks about stuff like the limits of consciousness or divinity. And that Adorno or Caillois are not abstract in their theories. Got ya.

@Reficulris you know i'm adorable

You're IEI, Jesus it's not that hard. It's obvious.

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Originally Posted by darya

i admit i'm crap at terminology, but i read an excessive definition of socionics introversion/extraversion and i'm still definitely an introvert. I need others to come to me, have low nergy levels, am lazy, have a few but very deep interests, don't have many acquaintances, am focused on conserving as much energy as possible (for a few people and interests i really care about, otherwise i ran out of it), am a very good listener - i listen to all extraverted people at work for hours, am shy, am shit scared of initiating anything, command anything or even raising my voice in unfamiliar environments, hate new responsibilities, and the list goes on and on and on. Basically all that extroverts are, I am not:lol:

i just don't understand how you can ignore all this information about me (why would I make this up?), if my communication style supposedly doesn't match? Why do definitions in socionics even exist if you can blatantly ignore them? Or why do I repeatedly test IEI on everything? So many questions:lol:

Is it possible I have a really strong sx variant (which I think I do) and it's throwing things off?

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We have a long and glorieus history of ignoraning facts, definitions, common sense and other mundane methods of gathering information in this forum ^^

Also; read some other "type me" threads to see how wide the variety is between typings of one person and how deep the confrontations can go ^^

Enneagram is an other widely disputed topic....

there is is no true concensus but there are certain members (Hkkmr, silke for instance) that imho will take time to actually try and type you and have a certain "grudgingly respect" on this forum.

that said, there will be an opinion oposed I any opinion you get here, and not all of it is pure trolling like mine. The forum is a living community which makes socionics an evolving subject with undercurrents of forum politics.

Thank you for the mature response, Reficulris:D. I understand it now, it's good for the evolution of theory that everybody has it's own opinion.I might took things a little too serious hehe.

Going to be blunt here

EIE imo

Not a 4, not a 9, but 3w4.

Basically a image controlling narcissist who wants to embodies various attractive qualities but fails to do so in practice. Refi, is this your ex-wife.

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Originally Posted by Pookie

You're IEI, Jesus it's not that hard. It's obvious.

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why is IEI so obvious that SEI isn't an option? sorry for putting you specifically on the spot but you are smart.

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Originally Posted by hkkmr

Going to be blunt here

EIE imo

Not a 4, not a 9, but 3w4.

Basically a image controlling narcissist who wants to embodies various attractive qualities but fails to do so in practice. Refi, is this your ex-wife.

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wow, that hurts. You're way off. I'm talking about me so much because it's a thread about me. I never even do it IRL. I just have a cocky way of joking, I don't really mean I'm hot shit or anything. I deeply care about a lot of people and think they're way better than me in one way or another.. Narcissists don't have any empathy and I cry when someone feels bad at the drop of a hat. But why am I even defending myself, you're going to say I'm projecting an image of false humility anyway. Please spare me the serious pathological diagnosis after a few posts on the forum. If I was a guy, I would come off as a cocky joker, but cause I'm a girl I come of as a psychopath. Nice.

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Originally Posted by darya

wow, that hurts. You're way off. I'm talking about me so much because it's a thread about me. I never even do it IRL. I just have a cocky way of joking, I don't really mean I'm hot shit or anything. I deeply care about a lot of people and think they're way better than me in one way or another.. Narcissists don't have any empathy and I cry when someone feels bad at the drop of a hat. But why am I even defending myself, you're going to say I'm projecting an image of false humility anyway. Please spare me the serious pathological diagnosis after a few posts on the forum. If I was a guy, I would come off as a cocky joker, but cause I'm a girl I come of as a psychopath. Nice.

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nice

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Originally Posted by hkkmr

Going to be blunt here

EIE imo

Not a 4, not a 9, but 3w4.

Basically a image controlling narcissist who wants to embodies various attractive qualities but fails to do so in practice. Refi, is this your ex-wife.

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oh ffs , he´s not 13, as I thought. :?. It´s your ex wife , Reffi, she´s come to get ya, run! Attachment 2945

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Originally Posted by mercutio

nice

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^ Exhibit A

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Originally Posted by darya

^ Exhibit A

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I think the problem is that you're getting too involved, and taking things too personally.

If you want to be on this forum you have to be good at filtering out noise, and not take every little thing as meaningful.

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Originally Posted by darya

wow, that hurts. You're way off. I'm talking about me so much because it's a thread about me. I never even do it IRL. I just have a cocky way of joking, I don't really mean I'm hot shit or anything. I deeply care about a lot of people and think they're way better than me in one way or another.. Narcissists don't have any empathy and I cry when someone feels bad at the drop of a hat. But why am I even defending myself, you're going to say I'm projecting an image of false humility anyway. Please spare me the serious pathological diagnosis after a few posts on the forum. If I was a guy, I would come off as a cocky joker, but cause I'm a girl I come of as a psychopath. Nice.

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I'm not using Narcissism as a personality disorder, it's normal for some people to have a certain level of narcissistic traits in them. This isn't a pathological diagnosis at all, see http://www.npatheory.com/.

However you are still image controlling, if you don't want the narcissism label for whatever reason, we can subtly alter what I said. ^_^

Basically a image controlling individual who wants to embodies various attractive qualities but fails to do so in practice. Refi, is this your ex-wife.

Maybe you even manage to somewhat embody most of the attractive qualities you value, so we can maybe take another part out.

Basically a image controlling individual who wants to embodies various attractive qualities. Refi, is this your ex-wife.

What you've bolded is the image you want to emphasize and control, and it's relatively accurate even, except for your supposed introversion and E9-ishness.

Your friends call you a judgemental bitch, I totally see that. If you're hurt, I'm just being blunt here, not going to sugar coat things.

Don't think this is a negative posts, I personally like EIE's...

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Originally Posted by darya

wow, that hurts. You're way off. I'm talking about me so much because it's a thread about me. I never even do it IRL. I just have a cocky way of joking, I don't really mean I'm hot shit or anything. I deeply care about a lot of people and think they're way better than me in one way or another.. Narcissists don't have any empathy and I cry when someone feels bad at the drop of a hat. But why am I even defending myself, you're going to say I'm projecting an image of false humility anyway. Please spare me the serious pathological diagnosis after a few posts on the forum. If I was a guy, I would come off as a cocky joker, but cause I'm a girl I come of as a psychopath. Nice.

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:hug:

I think EIE's are wonderful, so if you are then I will automatically find you wonderful. Not a psychotic girl! I like your spirit.

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Originally Posted by Maritsa

Interaction with material objects makes him/her a realist hence S

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false stereotype, intuitives can be very realistic too

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Originally Posted by darya

@Maritsa now I read on Gamma quadra and I cannot believe how can you "sense" that I belong there, if I claimed the complete opposite things about my preffered group interactions :shrug: I don't agree on any of the folowing:
I don't value productivity and don't form groups based on that. We get together to have fun and never do anything productive.
I don't give more value to factual information
I love deeply analyzing ideas that have no practical application. That's what I do all day. lol.
I laugh out loud a lot


I wanted to add that me being an agressor in anything (particularly romantic and erotic relations ) is frankly bizzare. I'm as victimy as they come. I am also NOT an extrovert (wouldn't you think a person would know that about themselves?). I'm not even close to being an extrovert, although I would love to be one.

I can buy one or two things that don't add up, but how is it possible there are so many inconsistencies and I'm a supposed SEE???

/rant over

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okay now :Ti:/:Fe: > :Te:/:Fi:

which makes you considering my previous post introverted, maybe IEI

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Originally Posted by hkkmr

Basically a image controlling individual who wants to embodies various attractive qualities but fails to do so in practice. Refi, is this your ex-wife.

Maybe you even manage to somewhat embody most of the attractive qualities you value, so we can maybe take another part out.

Basically a image controlling individual who wants to embodies various attractive qualities. Refi, is this your ex-wife.

What you've bolded is the image you want to emphasize and control, and it's relatively accurate even, except for your supposed introversion and E9-ishness.

Your friends call you a judgemental bitch, I totally see that. If you're hurt, I'm just being blunt here, not going to sugar coat things.

Don't think this is a negative posts, I personally like EIE's...

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Image-controlling yes, that´s why I thought 3wing or something. But she´s too impulsive in her writing to be a Rational type. Not communicating decisions already made or conclusions, it seems. She responds on the spot, it doesn´t look like super controlled Fe to me. However what she said about the importance of people´s status does make me think of that type, too.

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Originally Posted by AshSun

Image-controlling yes, that´s why I thought 3wing or something. But she´s too impulsive in her writing to be a Rational type. Not communicating decisions already made or conclusions, it seems. She responds on the spot, it doesn´t look like super controlled Fe to me. However what she said about the importance of people´s status does make me think of that type, too.

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:Fe: base types are rational but can appear impulsive as their mercurial emotional state drives them. :Fe: base types also have a Ep function as the 8th function, either :Se: or :Ne:.

Ej(choleric) temperament is often described as the most chaotic or the most rigid.

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Originally Posted by hkkmr

Basically a image controlling individual who wants to embodies various attractive qualities. Refi, is this your ex-wife.

...

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Hahaha i didn't read her enormous wall of text but i'm quite certain my ex-wife wouldn't post on a personality typing forum. However, there are certain similarities, I'll go read the wall of text and see if she's my ex-wive's evil (more evil?) twinsister!

@darya @hkkmr:

I'll be damned... she's one borderline personality disorder away from being completely identical to my wife. Same wierd combination of empathy and blunt-no-pc ness, impulsiveness and low practical confidence...almost everything she wrote clicks.

I'm serious and not trying to troll here, darya, you might be EIE!

(stay away from ILE's, you break them even if you think you don't want to!) <-part trolling, part serious!

Now I REAAAAALY want to see some pics!

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Originally Posted by hkkmr

I'm not using Narcissism as a personality disorder, it's normal for some people to have a certain level of narcissistic traits in them. This isn't a pathological diagnosis at all, see http://www.npatheory.com/.

However you are still image controlling, if you don't want the narcissism label for whatever reason, we can subtly alter what I said. ^_^

Basically a image controlling individual who wants to embodies various attractive qualities but fails to do so in practice. Refi, is this your ex-wife.

Maybe you even manage to somewhat embody most of the attractive qualities you value, so we can maybe take another part out.

Basically a image controlling individual who wants to embodies various attractive qualities. Refi, is this your ex-wife.

What you've bolded is the image you want to emphasize and control, and it's relatively accurate even, except for your supposed introversion and E9-ishness.

Your friends call you a judgemental bitch, I totally see that. If you're hurt, I'm just being blunt here, not going to sugar coat things.

Don't think this is a negative posts, I personally like EIE's...

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I take what I said back.I don't want you to sugarcoat anything. I never denied being a judgmental bitch, but I'm not bad at hearth. I have a soft core, believe it or not. I certainly care about my image and can feel arrogant, I just don't think that it's to the extent you assume, that's all. I'm not some mastermind evil manipulator, who steps all over other people just for my personal gain. If I would be like that I would either be damn proud of it and throwing it in everybody's faces or trying to conceal all my manipulative tendencies and I did none of those things. I just implied I can be like that from "time to time", which makes a significant difference, as far as I'm concerned. I I tried to be honest about my character, because I'm critical of my mistakes and image conciousnes is definitely not a trait I'm proud of in myself (and don't like it in others).

I actually found your post really interesting. But what I don't understand is what kind of attractive qualities am I trying to embody. Sure, everybody wants to be attractive. But my list contains many more of the shitty qualities than positive ones. For example: since when are lazyness, impulsivness, messiness, weirdness, awkwardness, moodiness, arrogance, vanity, etc. positive traits? I mean, if my date/friend would describe themselves in these words, I would think they're not a really nice person/ would not want to date them.

And in which universe is introversion a sought-after trait? Extroverts are winning at life wherever you look. It would certainly make my life easier if I was one.
I just don't see how I'm trying to appear oh so attractive:thinking:

So you're saying that I'm faking my introversion and E9-ishness? But why would I do that? What is so hard to believe about a shy and self-conscious person, who is also pretentious and bitchy ;)? But I'm probably misundarstanding and oversimplifying this and that's not what you were saying...

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Originally Posted by Reficulris

@darya @hkkmr:

I'll be damned... she's one borderline personality disorder away from being completely identical to my wife. Same wierd combination of empathy and blunt-no-pc ness, impulsiveness and low practical confidence...almost everything she wrote clicks.

I'm serious and not trying to troll here, darya, you might be EIE!

(stay away from ILE's, you break them even if you think you don't want to!) <-part trolling, part serious!

Now I REAAAAALY want to see some pics!

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I'm nobody's wife:lol: I'm not exactly marriage material haha.

But now that you mention it, one of the few guys, who was really really heartbroken by me, was an ILE :) But I didn't manipulate him or anything, well maybe I was a bit of a tease sometimes, but nothing major. He was just really smitten with me and I not so much by him;). That said, I was extremely heartbroken a bunch of times, so yeah...love sucks.

ILE''s are actually one of the top hottest personalities to me <- completely serious!

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Originally Posted by darya

I take what I said back.I don't want you to sugarcoat anything. I never denied being a judgmental bitch, but I'm not bad at hearth. I have a soft core, believe it or not. I certainly care about my image and can feel arrogant, I just don't think that it's to the extent you assume, that's all. I'm not some mastermind evil manipulator, who steps all over other people just for my personal gain. If I would be like that I would either be damn proud of it and throwing it in everybody's faces or trying to conceal all my manipulative tendencies and I did none of those things. I just implied I can be like that from "time to time", which makes a significant difference, as far as I'm concerned. I I tried to be honest about my character, because I'm critical of my mistakes and image conciousnes is definitely not a trait I'm proud of in myself (and don't like it in others).

I actually found your post really interesting. But what I don't understand is what kind of attractive qualities am I trying to embody. Sure, everybody wants to be attractive. But my list contains many more of the shitty qualities than positive ones. For example: since when are lazyness, impulsivness, messiness, weirdness, awkwardness, moodiness, arrogance, vanity, etc. positive traits? I mean, if my date/friend would describe themselves in these words, I would think they're not a really nice person/ would not want to date them.

And in which universe is introversion a sought-after trait? Extroverts are winning at life wherever you look. It would certainly make my life easier if I was one.
I just don't see how I'm trying to appear oh so attractive:thinking:

So you're saying that I'm faking my introversion and E9-ishness? But why would I do that? What is so hard to believe about a shy and self-conscious person, who is also pretentious and bitchy ;)? But I'm probably misundarstanding and oversimplifying this and that's not what you were saying...

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One should know that "negative" traits can be attractive.. Bad boys and girls yo... also lowers expectations.. ^_^

I don't think you're "faking" anything but instead it's more that you perhaps don't see yourself exactly as others see you. I think perhaps your moments of shyness and self consciousness do weight heavily on you, however, that doesn't define your introversion or extroversion.

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Originally Posted by darya

I'm nobody's wife:lol: I'm not exactly marriage material haha.

But now that you mention it, one of the few guys, who was really really heartbroken by me, was an ILE :) But I didn't manipulate him or anything, well maybe I was a bit of a tease sometimes, but nothing major. He was just really smitten with me and I not so much by him;). That said, I was extremely heartbroken a bunch of times, so yeah...love sucks.

ILE''s are actually one of the top hottest personalities to me <- completely serious!

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Yeah, if you ARE the same type as my wife the behaviour would be genuine and still "manipulative" in the sense that it takes someone "in hand" and molds them.

In my case I actually didn't like her, she stalked me 2 years before i gave her a chance at dating me (because I knew she wasn't dating material, all kinds of broken relationships and impulsiveness). If anyone was consciously manipulative i'd be me, i trolled her hard... We ended up getting married (war of attrition is always lost by me...).
At the end of the relationship the balance had shifted, she had become dominant in the constant mindgames and slowly lost interest. Than she cheated, changed into a different personality suited to her new lover and that was it.

I don't think she wanted to break me, and she didn't permanently damage me, and there IS superb sexual energy between ILE and EIE (if that is what she was) but I'm sure the ILE gets the short end of the stick in these relationships...

@hkkmr you seem to know your shit. Bad boys are imo much more popular. No one wants a bitch and bad girls are looked upon, so I always try to present myself like a better person:oops:

I'm offiicially open to being ENFj know. Wait, so who is my dual? And more importantly, can I no longer be a victim (oh, the horror:cry:) ?!