The difference between Ne and Se

This is a good starting point. I only object to the words "emotions" and "thoughts" in relation to Se and Ne respectively, because they confuse people that do not already know what Se and Ne are. As you imply, proper words actually do not exist, and it would be nice if they are invented.

I would say Ne perceives essences, which are typically of an abstract nature. With Se, it's a bit more difficult to explain. I think Se and Si perceive information on an evolutionary very old level, using organs that are as old as well: the oldest parts of the brain and even the central nervous system (which is in you spine). Our language lacks the every day words, let alone concepts, for these kinds of perception. Which is why people get confused with "emotions".

Yes, Eliza sees the parallels in situations when she brings another person in the description to relate someone else to hence she does Ne. This is the same thing that Slacker does that is why I type both IEE. Common quotes by these individuals are "She's so much like my EII friend, they both do this and unlike this the one does this...etc but they have this in common." etc. Almost none of Eliza's typings contain pure theoretical explanations.

Unlike the Ne of SEE and Ne of IEE is not only less involved with apprehending objects and letting them take over the person, but also that the Ne insight is sudden and reactive rather than the wondering and multitude of possibilities that will come to SEE type that will lock the individual down into a silent mind surge of things that they process but can't get a grip on.


@Eliza Thomason :love:

My lovely mirror. You warm my heart. :)

To me such descriptions are vague. Ne is essentially divergence and Se is convergence. Ne finds ways around issues. Se concentrates force to push a particular method.

Se types perceive Ne types as having less will power because they don't understand the benefits of exploring options to find easier routes. Ne is energy conserving.

Ne types perceive Se types as being too closed minded because they don't understand the benefits to sticking to a plan and making it work. Se is energy spending.

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Originally Posted by JadaeRat

Se has a relation to new ideas, subjects, objects, experiences, and so on. It directly relates, theoretically to "time". And it thus all of the notes within a time, in idea, expression or actuality. So, it does have a relation to not only past and present experience, but it also has a relation to hypothetical future experiences, and the search for. But it is not intuitive, which is a far different state of being. This is where the confusion between Se and Ne nests within our minds. So, think, "If both are external states of perfection, then how are they alike? How are they different? And how would a person that uses them behave that reflects these questions be?"

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in english?

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Originally Posted by mikemex

To me such descriptions are vague. Ne is essentially divergence and Se is convergence. Ne finds ways around issues. Se concentrates force to push a particular method.

Se types perceive Ne types as having less will power because they don't understand the benefits of exploring options to find easier routes. Ne is energy conserving.

Ne types perceive Se types as being too closed minded because they don't understand the benefits to sticking to a plan and making it work. Se is energy spending.

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i thought it was Ni that convergence. and se is more about perceiving "what is"; to converge.

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Originally Posted by mikemex

To me such descriptions are vague. Ne is essentially divergence and Se is convergence. Ne finds ways around issues. Se concentrates force to push a particular method.

Se types perceive Ne types as having less will power because they don't understand the benefits of exploring options to find easier routes. Ne is energy conserving.

Ne types perceive Se types as being too closed minded because they don't understand the benefits to sticking to a plan and making it work. Se is energy spending.

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This makes sense to me as a behavioural guage.

I sometimes wonder if my brother is Ne or Se because it’s hard to decide sometimes. I’ll tell a short story about him and maybe one of you can figure it.

I should start off by letting you know my dad hates alcohol and never drinks… He hates it when any of my siblings and I drink.

My brother was fifteen at the time and he got himself inebriated and then found himself in the presence of my father. My father called the police, so in my brother’s drunken state; he told my dad he was suicidal. My dad told the police this and they took him to the hospital for alcohol poisoning. Hilarity will ensue:

Brother wakes up in a hospital under the supervision of some over-weight police officer wondering what the heck happened. He jumps up and runs out the door with the cop in hot pursuit, but unable to catch him. My brother is running down the street in a hospital gown bear foot with a cop chasing him at 2 am. He finds a payphone and calls my dad, but before he can finish explaining to my dad where he is the cop grabs him. My dad said all he heard was a struggle and “Ahhhhhhhh!!! Porky GOT meh!!!” The police officer takes my brother back to the hospital and they admit him to some kind of children’s mental hospital.

The hospital told my brother he had to stay there for evaluation which could take up to two weeks. My brother asked to use the phone and they wouldn’t let him. He saw a poster near the front desk explaining what his rights were and according to the poster his parents have the right to get him out at any time. They still won’t let him use the phone. He tells the administrator at the front desk “This is stupid, I was DRUNK” She tells him to go sit down.

My brother then starts getting to know all the other patients and showing them the poster whilst explaining their rights to them. He also told them “they want to keep you here because the state gives them money; call your parents” The other patients are now harassing the front desk and they all want to call their parents. My brother sat calmly watching TV.

My brother never did get that phone call, but my dad got one from the hospital. My brother went home.

ILE or SLE?

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Originally Posted by JadaeRat

Yeah, I'd lean toward Se over Ne.

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In all honesty I'm torn. Going by Ananke's descriptions i am half and half with Se and much more in Ne, however her description of Ne is much shorter. I do however think her descriptions are very well written with much insight, so I am giving them much consideration.

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Originally Posted by Maritsa

Yes, Eliza sees the parallels in situations when she brings another person in the description to relate someone else to hence she does Ne. This is the same thing that Slacker does that is why I type both IEE. Common quotes by these individuals are "She's so much like my EII friend, they both do this and unlike this the one does this...etc but they have this in common." etc. Almost none of Eliza's typings contain pure theoretical explanations.

Unlike the Ne of SEE and Ne of IEE is not only less involved with apprehending objects and letting them take over the person, but also that the Ne insight is sudden and reactive rather than the wondering and multitude of possibilities that will come to SEE type that will lock the individual down into a silent mind surge of things that they process but can't get a grip on.

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Originally Posted by mikemex

To me such descriptions are vague. Ne is essentially divergence and Se is convergence. Ne finds ways around issues. Se concentrates force to push a particular method.

Se types perceive Ne types as having less will power because they don't understand the benefits of exploring options to find easier routes. Ne is energy conserving.

Ne types perceive Se types as being too closed minded because they don't understand the benefits to sticking to a plan and making it work. Se is energy spending.

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I'm a little confused between Marita's and Mike's descriptions as they seem to contradict. I twould be great to get some consensus on this as i think it might help a lot of people move forward.

As far as I am aware I would be more in line with Maritsa's definition of Se and Mike's definition of Ne. For me when problem solving... if i hit a brick wall I will find ways around the wall, possibly even conceptualising that there is no wall. I do not try to use force to steam through it, nor look for a hammer to knock it down. I shall give an example...

In working with children with special needs as a case worker and getting them the help they need in education I first assert what it is that the parent wants for their child, also what is in the best interests of the child, what the parameters are, how this relates to education law. Then I work with the authorities involved to open up those provisions. If this all goes to plan then fantastic, everyone is happy ever after.

However this rarely ever goes to plan and this is where I bleive my use of Ne is so helpful. If you believe this is Se I'd be interested.

I often have to work within the parameters of education law and SEN guidelines however within that i have room to move and this is where i look outside the box. Who can provide this help for the child? If not here/if not this... then where/who/how much. I will not try to enforce something but i will find options to get the child whatever help I can and I will often use areas that are largely unexplored. I have been asked if I am a lawyer befor now because I sem to pluck solutions out of thin air. I do this voluntarily because it is something which is close to my heart, this is not 'a job'. I am a fighter though, make no mistake and when i truely believe in something I will continue looking until i find solution or one is found for me.

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Originally Posted by chriscorey

I sometimes wonder if my brother is Ne or Se because it’s hard to decide sometimes. I’ll tell a short story about him and maybe one of you can figure it.

I should start off by letting you know my dad hates alcohol and never drinks… He hates it when any of my siblings and I drink.

My brother was fifteen at the time and he got himself inebriated and then found himself in the presence of my father. My father called the police, so in my brother’s drunken state; he told my dad he was suicidal. My dad told the police this and they took him to the hospital for alcohol poisoning. Hilarity will ensue:

Brother wakes up in a hospital under the supervision of some over-weight police officer wondering what the heck happened. He jumps up and runs out the door with the cop in hot pursuit, but unable to catch him. My brother is running down the street in a hospital gown bear foot with a cop chasing him at 2 am. He finds a payphone and calls my dad, but before he can finish explaining to my dad where he is the cop grabs him. My dad said all he heard was a struggle and “Ahhhhhhhh!!! Porky GOT meh!!!” The police officer takes my brother back to the hospital and they admit him to some kind of children’s mental hospital.

The hospital told my brother he had to stay there for evaluation which could take up to two weeks. My brother asked to use the phone and they wouldn’t let him. He saw a poster near the front desk explaining what his rights were and according to the poster his parents have the right to get him out at any time. They still won’t let him use the phone. He tells the administrator at the front desk “This is stupid, I was DRUNK” She tells him to go sit down.

My brother then starts getting to know all the other patients and showing them the poster whilst explaining their rights to them. He also told them “they want to keep you here because the state gives them money; call your parents” The other patients are now harassing the front desk and they all want to call their parents. My brother sat calmly watching TV.

My brother never did get that phone call, but my dad got one from the hospital. My brother went home.

ILE or SLE?

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Oh my gosh great story! Your brother is ILE because he 1. made up that he was suicidal (Ti creative) 2. escaped barefoot and got caught (Si mobilizing), 3. then started a patient uprising (Te demonstratve.)

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Originally Posted by JadaeRat

I dont speak Kiwi English.

Essentially it says that we are assigning random traits to each of these that do not belong, and that we are not really seeing them as the perceptive states that they are.

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Well it's pretty fucking sad if where you come from has dropped to the level of:
"And it thus all of the notes within a time, in idea, expression or actuality."

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Originally Posted by Iris

Oh my gosh great story! Your brother is ILE because he 1. made up that he was suicidal (Ti creative) 2. escaped barefoot and got caught (Si mobilizing), 3. then started a patient uprising (Te demonstratve.)

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Makes sense. The story is far more amusing when my brother tells it. I still remember the phone call "Do you know what dad did to ME?!" Convinced my father was some kind of evil plotter :8*

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Originally Posted by chriscorey

Convinced my father was some kind of evil plotter :8*

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That sounds like Fi polr.... ILE confirm. (Ha, just joking... but not really)

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Originally Posted by chriscorey

Makes sense. The story is far more amusing when my brother tells it. I still remember the phone call "Do you know what dad did to ME?!" Convinced my father was some kind of evil plotter :8*

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well that does sound pretty evil to me.

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Originally Posted by Maritsa Socionics

Se:

Extraverted Sensory Perception seeks the highest intensity and completeness of experience derived from real objects and physical activities, preferably, but not necessarily pleasurable ones. There is no particular purpose for these experiences. They, themselves, are the goals of perception. Extraverted Sensory Perception strives to possess objects, and since distinction between people and objects is done by Conceiving functions, radical Extraverted Sensory Perception strives to possess people too.
Extraverted Sensory types are highly realistic. To exist and to be attractive for Extraverted Sensory function, objects have to be visible and tangible. The ones that sparkle and shine brighter have higher chances of being chosen by Extraverted Sensory Perception.

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When I think of the above, I think of SEE types who enjoy gardening [substitue with any number of tasks] say "yes, I get so exhausted from doing this work because they are a. physical activities and b may or may not be pleasurable ones. I don't see someone like my friend @Eliza Thomason doing this.

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Originally Posted by Maritsa Socionics

Extraverted Intuitive Perception just like Extraverted Sensory Perception derives its experience from real objects. The quality of such experience is quite different, though. Instead of perceiving the kind and intensity of color, shape, texture, sound, and other physical characteristics of objects, Extraverted Intuitive Perception omits the details and perceives objects in general. Perception in general means that the most important function of the object is perceived, whereas the details of its appearance are neglected. What is the most important function of a brick? It may become a part of a construction project. Therefore its color, texture, material, even shapes don’t matter. What does matter is its function. What is the most important function of a person? A person can be our teacher, our parent, lover, co-worker. Does it matter how our co-worker looks? Well, if you’re an Extraverted Sensory type, it does. But if you’re Extraverted Intuitive type , it really doesn’t, as long as the function is carried out and maximized. The best way to maximize the function of an object or a person is to engage the entire functional potential of the object or person in its operation. Therefore Extraverted Intuitive Perception overlooks the apparent qualities and concentrates on the hidden potentials and latent possibilities of things. Ordinary events are perceived as providing clues to these potentials and possibilities. Once the hidden possibilities are uncovered, objects lose their attractiveness to Extraverted Intuitive Perception . The more hidden potentials and possibilities an object or a person possesses, the more attractive it is for an Extraverted Intuitive Perception . If an Extraverted Sensory Perception derives its experience from the same objects over and over, Extraverted Intuitive Perception needs new objects and situations all the time to feed the eternal quest for new possibilities and horizons.

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This. Real object but not PHYSICAL ACTIVITY. If you shoot a video in which you're gardening and telling me about your activities thereof you're going to be typed Se by ME. While perceiving an object in general what Ne tends to do is conceptualize it by that, just like the founder of Socionics, Aushra, what ILE tends to do is make a system with symbols that omits words and explanations because these symbols to them say a lot also with :Fi: relational twist to Ne they relate one experience to a set of experiences both with their :Fi: relations and :Fe: values as that conflict is observed within IEE in this article:

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Stratiyevskaya

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Originally Posted by Geminatronix

In all honesty I'm torn. Going by Ananke's descriptions i am half and half with Se and much more in Ne, however her description of Ne is much shorter. I do however think her descriptions are very well written with much insight, so I am giving them much consideration.





I'm a little confused between Marita's and Mike's descriptions as they seem to contradict. I twould be great to get some consensus on this as i think it might help a lot of people move forward.

As far as I am aware I would be more in line with Maritsa's definition of Se and Mike's definition of Ne. For me when problem solving... if i hit a brick wall I will find ways around the wall, possibly even conceptualising that there is no wall. I do not try to use force to steam through it, nor look for a hammer to knock it down. I shall give an example...

In working with children with special needs as a case worker and getting them the help they need in education I first assert what it is that the parent wants for their child, also what is in the best interests of the child, what the parameters are, how this relates to education law. Then I work with the authorities involved to open up those provisions. If this all goes to plan then fantastic, everyone is happy ever after.

However this rarely ever goes to plan and this is where I bleive my use of Ne is so helpful. If you believe this is Se I'd be interested.

I often have to work within the parameters of education law and SEN guidelines however within that i have room to move and this is where i look outside the box. Who can provide this help for the child? If not here/if not this... then where/who/how much. I will not try to enforce something but i will find options to get the child whatever help I can and I will often use areas that are largely unexplored. I have been asked if I am a lawyer befor now because I sem to pluck solutions out of thin air. I do this voluntarily because it is something which is close to my heart, this is not 'a job'. I am a fighter though, make no mistake and when i truely believe in something I will continue looking until i find solution or one is found for me.

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it's not MY definition of Se it's in the wiki.

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Originally Posted by Maritsa

it's not MY definition of Se it's in the wiki.

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Oh is it? Verbatim?

Link please.

Ok, I get Se types who love love love color, textures and styles, not on what they wear necessarily but in paintings, in other objects, on other people, on dishes and plates, on plants on weeds and when you tell them what Se is they say "no, I'm not like that." I don't get it. Please help me I don't get it.

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Originally Posted by Maritsa

Ok, I get Se types who love love love color, textures and styles, not on what they wear necessarily but in paintings, in other objects, on other people, on dishes and plates, on plants on weeds and when you tell them what Se is they say "no, I'm not like that." I don't get it. Please help me I don't get it.

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Let me help you out here:

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...-at-it-(/page2

Post 58

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Originally Posted by Kim

Let me help you out here:

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...-at-it-(/page2

Post 58

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I didn't say that wasn't also related to Ne as you may read from my post below #21

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Originally Posted by Kim

Let me help you out here:

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...-at-it-(/page2

Post 58

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Genius.

ANALYZING ELIZA'S POST:

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Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason

Wow, if this is Se then I am very good at this kind of Se. I have an excellent color memory even for subtle shades.

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Se role types can and DO use Se and experiencing colors by textures and shades is not excluded to Se base as a role type can use it interchangeably well enough.

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Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason

In college a painting prof criticized me when he gave a color chart assignment, a grid of squares to paint in oil in analogous and other combinations and I spent intense weeks on an embellished series of these, some with just subtle variations of previous ones, he thought it was a waste of time and even devalued my class grade some points, yet, to me it was worth it; I got so much out of that exercise and still have those charts and those color combinations are imprinted in my memory and when I see things related to those color groupings I remember and make the connections...and would like to go back and spend more time on new subtle variations...

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She may very well have gotten bored and moved on. Instead what Eliza did was she took her time to maximize the potential of something through developed understanding of it. Being " The best way to maximize the function of an object or a person is to engage the entire functional potential of the object or person in its operation." How will someone gain an understanding of a latent possibility if they don't ge obsessively entailed in it? It is very clear from Jung's writing of Ne that the type gets obsessed and overtaken by a hobby or whatever and in that moment will seem like that's the only thing that they will ever do only to drop it and move on to something else. How many many ILE are interested in color theory designed for coordination of colors to "match" things? So many almost every single ILE I've ever met in my entire life's been into this sort of thing even Steve Jobs who I type ILE. Color as a theory has nothing to do with Se strictly as Ne base can very well use Se as their role.

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Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason

Oil paints are so messy though, a major operation to have them out.

So this and my love of arranging things, like things in a room to be aesthetically pleasing, I thought this was a type of Si maybe. I can actually feel uncomfortable in a work or home* environment that is aesthetically displeasing. If I am going to spend productive time there I need to correct it.

*(however my home or areas of it can get quite messy at times! particularly when distracted or because I am overwhelmed)

When I was in grad school it was an intense time because I was teaching 500 kids a week, then evenings driving across town to college at night, only scraps of time available to study, and my bad marraige that I was in denial about didn't help any. So a super-sensitivity about aesthetics was probably heightened because of great pressure I was under all the time..

Well one of my classes (in this otherwise gorgeous college that was always peace-giving to drive into and to walk across campus and into the beautiful buildings) was in this brightly florescent-lit room with garish rust-orange carpet. They had those small arm-rest chairs so when I took notes all class this ugly carpet sort of enveloped my field of vision, and I was annoyed. I needed calm to concentrate and I needed to do well because I SURE did not want to take the class over.

So I went to the fabric store and found a fabric of pleasing pattern of various blues with the tiniest traces of the orange of the floor in it (to coordinate) while being as a whole the very opposite color of the orange floor. I got out my Elmers and scissors and completely covered my notebook in it, inside and out, so that now its color surrounded my paper when I wrote notes - oh, and I switched to pale blue matte stationary for note-taking, as the white paper had glared in the bright room - and tese two things being of opposite color, "canceled out" the orange - and the annoyance. It did bring me peace and it was a perfect solution for me (which I never told anyone, thinking no one could ever relate to it.)

But other people's messy houses I can take. I see the person, the comfort of the interaction is what matters to me. Someone might start apologizing about the mess if that is their situation but I always say, "But I can't see it. I block it out".

However if I am going to spend a few days as a guest I have to hollow out a little section of order, usually that's just my own guest room. Or if we are home and not out-and-about all the time I will get started straightening the living room or cleaning the kitchen.. I did that with my SLI, at first relaxing and talking amidst the chaos and eating meals balanced on laps since the table was piled high with junk and mess, just enjoying his company. But then after some time I had to make headway, and started with the kitchen, and then I (we) never stopped - now coming up on two years since that first visit, its perfect: all organized, everything in its designated place, no junk, extremely pleasing colors and shining surfaces.. It took some time! :)

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If an Extraverted Sensory Perception derives its experience from the same objects over and over, Extraverted Intuitive Perception needs new objects and situations all the time to feed the eternal quest for new possibilities and horizons. Eliza has mentioned several times here on the forum that most of her SEE friends cook the same meals (as my ESI cousin does too) but what she will do is try new things. She herself recognizes these patterns in her Se illusionary relations. You mean to tell me that someone who is capable of recognizing the patters in many Se bases and compares that to that of her own is not going to see the obvious difference? Of course she is. The only reason why people will not give her that credibility is that by doing that they will put some real flaws into their own logic and those seeming contradictions that may arise for them somehow bother them so they must shun you and reflect upon the set of values they already know and rely on, as their Se, being a static type of perception, once it grasps certain info isn't easy to change or reevaluate because such a perception isn't easily changed.

What if Ne is just Se but really lazy? :thinking:

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Originally Posted by JadaeRat

I hate you all for about another 2 minutes. You're fucking up my masterpiece post =[

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YOU ARE ARROGANT

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Originally Posted by Maritsa

When I think of the above, I think of SEE types who enjoy gardening [substitue with any number of tasks] say "yes, I get so exhausted from doing this work because they are a. physical activities and b may or may not be pleasurable ones. I don't see someone like my friend @Eliza Thomason doing this.



This. Real object but not PHYSICAL ACTIVITY. If you shoot a video in which you're gardening and telling me about your activities thereof you're going to be typed Se by ME. While perceiving an object in general what Ne tends to do is conceptualize it by that, just like the founder of Socionics, Aushra, what ILE tends to do is make a system with symbols that omits words and explanations because these symbols to them say a lot also with :Fi: relational twist to Ne they relate one experience to a set of experiences both with their :Fi: relations and :Fe: values as that conflict is observed within IEE in this article:

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Stratiyevskaya

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Maritsa is referencing my blog posts and videos/pics here: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ared-vids-blog

The video was created for my mother, who had asked me to show her my garden.
Successful gardening requires making efficient use of resources, including sunlight, personal energy, etc. Which is what I was showing my mother...how I was trying to reach sunlight as a resource. And the shelf system Richard made to help me after I showed him where most the sun was available. While making things easy for me, including less bending and other painful activities. In socionics terms, this would be me showing my mom Te geared towards Si, and how Richard had provided me with an Si + Te system to assist me.

Dynamic Te is not static Se.
And since the gardening system was geared to maximizing effeciency of natural and personal resources, AND personal comfort and ease, then my gardening system fits under Si+Te valuing.


I have stated elsewhere, I do not enjoy gardening. I don't like dealing with the bugs, spiders, and slugs. I don't like having to turn my attention to plants when I would prefer to spend it on ideas elsewhere. I don't like being pressured (by nature) to do concrete activities with concrete objects on HER schedule...rather than pursue more interesting things on my own time. But, I do believe in sustainability, and that includes not centralizing our food systems. It is my "ideal" that landowners use that land to help the local economy, to help others, or to at least ease the burden on farmers. And so I often struggle with myself between my distaste (Fi) for the concreteness required for gardening (S), and my desire for comfort (Si), in order to follow my ideal (Maritsa considers "idealism" to be Ne).

In fact, last night Richard and I talked about some of the things I struggle with at home. Including my reasons for gardening. He knows I strongly dislike it, and he knows it fits my conceptions of sustainability, my anti-GMO stance, and my personal nutritional health. And he knows I dislike it so much that other than a few minor upkeep activities including caring for the massive strawberry patch in the middle of our yard...(fresh strawberries are quite tasty and they are already in the ground so no extra work for them)...I am placing gardening on the back burner so I can turn my attentions to things I enjoy more. He fully supports me in that.

Gardening is not Se in and of itself. It does, however, require attending extensively to Se information, as well as Te+Ni info, as well as more foresight and strategic planning than I am willing to consider, lol. Also, any type is capable of trying to garden. (And being bored by talk of gardening. The only reason I am talking about it here, in this post, is because Maritsa referenced my videos to my mom.)

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Originally Posted by InvisibleJim

What if Ne is just Se but really lazy? :thinking:

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Sounds like a question for philosoraptor!

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Originally Posted by Maritsa

ANALYZING ELIZA'S POST:

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I just want to say thank you so much for analyzing my post. What what you wrote fits exactly for how I think. (I appreciate that validation. Thank you!).

Yes, Your Stratiyevskaya link posted above, in the post where you spoke of gardening, does explain how I approach things -- when I am focused on something I do it with an almost obsessive intensity. I see little else but the manifestation of that and stick with it until it is achieved (because I am restless if I let it go). As in the color grid assignment in my painting class, I had to keep going with it til my ideas were manifested. Same with gardening projects/goals.

Yes, this is how Ne manifests for me:

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Originally Posted by Maritsa

It is very clear from Jung's writing of Ne that the type gets obsessed and overtaken by a hobby or whatever and in that moment will seem like that's the only thing that they will ever do only to drop it and move on to something else.

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Yes.

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Originally Posted by Maritsa

How many many ILE are interested in color theory designed for coordination of colors to "match" things? So many almost every single ILE I've ever met in my entire life's been into this sort of thing even Steve Jobs who I type ILE. Color as a theory has nothing to do with Se strictly as Ne base can very well use Se as their role..

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Interesting! I don't find many with this interest and am always interested when someone else is.

"Project" example is my gardens, since you mentioned gardens. :) I get these ideas for transforming them and I go all out manifesting the idea. My neighbors always enjoy my gardens (we all have the same, plain townhouses) but my IEE trouble is that once the goal is reached, there is lack of consistency. Three years ago I came up with an Advent candle garden that is so meaningful to me and the whole intention was to put it up every year, but I have not since.

But my SLI is going to help me get it back up this year because he will be here a the start of Advent. <3 ... Dualization is the best. :)


Attachment 2758

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Originally Posted by mercutio

well that does sound pretty evil to me.

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My dad is a bit hard on him I suppose.

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Originally Posted by anndelise

Maritsa is referencing my blog posts and videos/pics here: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ared-vids-blog

The video was created for my mother, who had asked me to show her my garden.
Successful gardening requires making efficient use of resources, including sunlight, personal energy, etc. Which is what I was showing my mother...how I was trying to reach sunlight as a resource. And the shelf system Richard made to help me after I showed him where most the sun was available. While making things easy for me, including less bending and other painful activities. In socionics terms, this would be me showing my mom Te geared towards Si, and how Richard had provided me with an Si + Te system to assist me.

Dynamic Te is not static Se.
And since the gardening system was geared to maximizing effeciency of natural and personal resources, AND personal comfort and ease, then my gardening system fits under Si+Te valuing.


I have stated elsewhere, I do not enjoy gardening. I don't like dealing with the bugs, spiders, and slugs. I don't like having to turn my attention to plants when I would prefer to spend it on ideas elsewhere. I don't like being pressured (by nature) to do concrete activities with concrete objects on HER schedule...rather than pursue more interesting things on my own time. But, I do believe in sustainability, and that includes not centralizing our food systems. It is my "ideal" that landowners use that land to help the local economy, to help others, or to at least ease the burden on farmers. And so I often struggle with myself between my distaste (Fi) for the concreteness required for gardening (S), and my desire for comfort (Si), in order to follow my ideal (Maritsa considers "idealism" to be Ne).

In fact, last night Richard and I talked about some of the things I struggle with at home. Including my reasons for gardening. He knows I strongly dislike it, and he knows it fits my conceptions of sustainability, my anti-GMO stance, and my personal nutritional health. And he knows I dislike it so much that other than a few minor upkeep activities including caring for the massive strawberry patch in the middle of our yard...(fresh strawberries are quite tasty and they are already in the ground so no extra work for them)...I am placing gardening on the back burner so I can turn my attentions to things I enjoy more. He fully supports me in that.

Gardening is not Se in and of itself. It does, however, require attending extensively to Se information, as well as Te+Ni info, as well as more foresight and strategic planning than I am willing to consider, lol. Also, any type is capable of trying to garden. (And being bored by talk of gardening. The only reason I am talking about it here, in this post, is because Maritsa referenced my videos to my mom.)

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In my description of Se "Extraverted Sensory Perception seeks the highest intensity and completeness of experience derived from real objects and physical activities, preferably, but not necessarily pleasurable ones." You can dislike it but do it.

I imagine and I may be right about this that @Eliza Thomason passes up those things which she doesn't find enjoyable easily, correct?

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Originally Posted by Maritsa

In my description of Se "Extraverted Sensory Perception seeks the highest intensity and completeness of experience derived from real objects and physical activities, preferably, but not necessarily pleasurable ones." You can dislike it but do it.

I imagine and I may be right about this that @Eliza Thomason passes up those things which she doesn't find enjoyable easily, correct?

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I do so appreciate this analyzing you are doing Maritsa, you do it better than me! Answering your question, yes. I do want to flee from an unpleasant thing (like communications that make me feel uncomfortable).

Also unpleasant projects. If they are truly necessary I will adjust to make them less unpleasant or better yet, enjoyable.Sometimes its a matter of reducing it or breaking it down to a more manageable size task.

Like if I set myself to clean my whole house I can just get stuck. And stuck and stuck. But its worth doing I persist by breaking it down to manageable size tasks, not the whole house but just this one room, and I visualize how much better I feel with just that in order. MY ESI Mom's "shoulds" often felt so oppressing, growing up. My SLI doesn't "should" me, and he so encourages me that way. He helps me and he makes me relax and brings me peace just by being close to me so with reduced anxiety I can think better. I am realizing how very much I need that relaxing comfort of his presence. And then I can decide which "unpleasants" I can discard or pretend don't exist and which ones to approach by breaking them up into smaller "nice" tasks...

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Originally Posted by Maritsa

In my description of Se "Extraverted Sensory Perception seeks the highest intensity and completeness of experience derived from real objects and physical activities, preferably, but not necessarily pleasurable ones." You can dislike it but do it.

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You can dislike it without "seeking the highest intensity and completeness of experience..."

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I imagine and I may be right about this that @Eliza Thomason passes up those things which she doesn't find enjoyable easily, correct?

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I have no doubt her emotions would play a priority role and lead her to avoiding the negative while pursuing the positive.

You know I think it would be really interesting to have a look at all the different descriptions of types andfunctions and those who wrote them and what type they self type as and what type they are most commonly assumed to be. I think that would yield some very interesting results. Stratiyevskaya would be interesting to contrast with Filatova for example. It is also helpful to understand who associates with each description.

I wonder @Ananke, who do you believe (self typing as Se ego yourself) gives the closest descriptions to Se and SLE, SeTi, in your opinion. Are there any SeTi socionists? I know you are largely unhappy with what had previously been available but is there anyone in particular who can get close?

Of all the Se descriptions I've encountered I liked the one written by Herzy's the most (link) as it mirrors what I've experienced of it and most importantly doesn't confuse Se for aggression or willpower. IME Se is similar to waves of heightened awareness and observation of everything that's around me, with all the objects feeling like they are giving me some kind of resistance that feels grounding, as if I was hovering somewhere and just landed. It is an increase of outer awareness that feels sobering - that this is it. I recall @DJ Arendee (self-typed as Beta ST) has described something similar in his videos. Se PoLR often feels like a lack of some this crucial awareness on part of the Se PoLR person. They seem especially unobservant to me.


I also liked this set of descriptors for differentiating Se from Ne: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...nt-Descriptors

[IOS] Internal Object Statics (:Ne:) = Modularization (Perspectival, Polygonization, Schematization, Parameterization, Transposition, Component, Partitions, Contours, Lineaments, Delimitants, Iteration, Recursion, Permutation, Conformation, Isomorphism, Semblance, Equivalence, Differentia, Instantia, Indices, Atomistic)

[EOS] External Object Statics (:Se:) = Phenonema (Experiential, Scalar, Absolute, Emphasis, Contrast, Threshold, Values, Texture, Magnitude, Divergence, Span, Extent, Ambit, Scope)


There is this quality to Ne that can be described as "Isomorphism, Permutation, Semblance, Equivalence" which gives it a kind of chimerical, transmutative, amorphous feel that distinguishes it from Se. This makes Ne impress on Ni egos as too transparent and lightweight, and therefore inconsequential, sometimes "slippery" and chameleon-like.

I think one of the things to remember is that elements don't function isolated of the others.
4D Ne info implies 2D Se info.
4D Se info implies 2D Ne info.
3D Ne info implies 1D Se info.
3D Se info implies 1D Ne info.

So when a person is utilizing the "what" pathway, of information processing, they utilize both Ne and Se, just to differing degrees.

To put it a bit differently,
Global Ne also uses Se norms/rules.
Global Se also uses Ne norms/rules.
Situational Ne also uses basic experiences of Se.
Situational Se also uses basic experiences of Ne.

Or, for a more visual approach:
:Ne::Ne::Ne::Ne::Se::Se:
:Se::Se::Se::Se::Ne::Ne:
:Ne::Ne::Ne::Se:
:Se::Se::Se::Ne:

So yeah, an object oriented type (Xe) is going to have a higher awareness of objects (real and imagined) than a field oriented type (Xi)

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Originally Posted by mercutio

i thought it was Ni that convergence. and se is more about perceiving "what is"; to converge.

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it is...

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Originally Posted by Ananke

When I use Se, I have noticed a similar to Ne kind of thing happening. This morning, I looked at a picture frame that was covered with crackling gold paint surrounded by dark wood. I stared at it, and somehow, I felt as if I zoomed inwards, seeing some old time setting, when such frames were more common. Then I zoomed back to the picture, and zoomed back inwards, and saw a dinosaur, as they have similarly cracked up skins as the gold paint had. It feels a bit like constantly focusing and defocusing, triggering associations of other things seen before.

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this reminds me of when I was at a swedish antique store some weeks ago. initially I didn't know what to expect and had to acclimate to the more congested Si-esque environment, but as I explored more I began to 'lose myself' in the objects while retaining a basic, almost unconscious, distance from them. it was about the touch, size, the 'feel' of any designs, and so on; these things became greater than the objects themselves and the space that contained them. after a while it began to feel like I and the objects were suspended between the house and the outside world, each one guiding me to the next. it was nice because there weren't any explicit 'transitions,' and I always had an intuitive feel for how much time each one warranted; everything retained itself, so associations took on a more spontaneous quality. there was this almost platonic sense of detached involvement that I only get at art museums, which I think parallels/serves as the background for Se's style of involvement; the 'zooming in and out' of Se is complementary to the lateral 'moving back and forth' of Ni. the object has to be gauged and felt completely, for any meaningful associations to be made. whereas with Ne/Si the object itself loses significance in the face of the inner qualities it possesses... which are associated in terms of the subjective context or 'feel' of this environment in terms of others; the qualities become 'fixed' through this process and the experience becomes more relatable on a concrete level. so, Ni/Se would observe the polish of a piece of cutlery and think about the process of modernization in terms of man's psychological expansion; Ne/Si would see the entire table with cutlery set up and recall a movie about older european aristocracies, and the qualities our own have in common with them.

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They seek inner balance and use their surroundings to hold themselves together, like that egg, lol.

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:lol:

....no. you can type people at even the age of one. And you don't have to know them really well, or even at all...althougy that helps. Some people just have the look automatically...others I just have to see their face once or twice onseperate occasions and I know their type.

As for Estp we are usually reserved and in complete control..its either that or sanguine and happy go lucky, but we sooner learn that the world is a cold hard fucked up place...no one cares about you. Logic rules. So we revert to Ti and think before we act. The only time you'll ever see me talking to you and smiling is if I'm not sober...and I'm never sober. ;)

Ne is way more abstract then Se. I use my Ne when like..thinking of new ideas..brainstorming, making up some story.

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Originally Posted by Ananke

I think cause you don't get WHAT they love about it, and that the love for the color, texture, style isn't what is at base of their choices. It's not that they love "red", it's what that color does to them, on a sensory level. Just like how Si types don't necessarily like clutter, even if it sure seems that way when you enter their homes at times, lol.
Se isn't about like and dislike in the Fi way, Maritsa. It is very different, though in SEEs it might be mixed?

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Don't try listening to Maritsa.

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Se-EPs are kind of ADHD-kids. They need calm surroundings to be calm, and too much impulses make them jump around like maniacs or even get nervous. I have observed that most Se-egos like very high class and modern surroundings, with very few lines, few and matching colors, some contrasting shiny/matt surfaces for balance, etc. etc. A typical Se-ego room could look something like these rooms:
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=mo...iw=780&bih=380

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Everyone needs calm surroundings to be calm. But everyone doesn't need to be calm. I dunno what this whole jumping around like maniacs thing is. I think that's just a rebound effect ups and downs of stimulation levels.

It's like if you drive 140k/hour, then drive 60k/hour, 60k/hour will seem real slow. but if you just normally drive 80k/hour all the time it'll just seem normal.

I think you make the assumption that calmness is somehow required. A lot of people grow up in calm or messy environments, and go to extremes. Which one is right is hard to decide. But generally speaking richer people tend to have more order in their environments, and poorer people tend to have less.

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Si-egos, as a contrast, are much more cluttery and like "cozy":
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=co...+room&tbm=isch

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They both look pretty artificial to me.

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To explain, I'd need to contrast Si and Se, and how types with these functions "relax":
- Si-egos want to "sink in" into themselves, to find "inner balance". A cave-like room and a cozy home with a lot of "clutter" around them, is perfect to sit in when you want to sink inwards in a Si way. The room makes a support around you like an eggshell to an egg. The surroundings are somehow directed into them, and they seep it in to somehow feel "heavier" and that way more balanced, in some sense. They seek inner balance and use their surroundings to hold themselves together, like that egg, lol.

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I like what I require to be in close proxomitry.

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- While Se-egos are quite capable of doing the Si-thing, it isn't their preferred way of relaxing. Se-egos have the opposite direction when they relax. Instead of pulling the surroundings inwards to create a balance inside, Se-egos somehow go outwards, and become one with the surroundings. If there are too many colors or too many corners or too many lines or too many objects around, this feels to the Se-ego as if there is "clutter inside" them, since they are their surroundings when they are floating out into the space surrounding them. When a Se-ego can get lost in one color or one line or simple styles like the ones in the link above, they feel calm. The perfect line that goes ALL across the room, without anything breaking it. The awesome color that just adds the perfect feel in their soul. The silence of the colors and surface materials creating stillness within. That's what is awesome, not the colors in themselves. The same colors might not have been good in the wrong place at the wrong time. Then it would have been upsetting, but in that particular shape and that particular color and in that particular place it made perfection inside the Se-ego. Se-egos create balance in themselves by balancing the surroundings through symmetry, easy to discern details, simple straight or at least primary forms, etc. All of it creates sort of a Si type of balance but from taking in/becoming a balanced external world instead of creating it inside as with Si-egos.

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I don't know why you keep talking about relaxation. Why do you seek this relaxation thing so much?

I agree that too many colours can be distracting. That said I like fire, and fire is distracting.

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I think Ne-egos have extremely high tolerance for "clutter", and even if they also prefer simplicity, they seem to prefer a Si "cluttery" environment, to a Se "modern" environment. Maybe because Ne likes to explore and have fun with the things popping out of the things they see, while Se-egos want the simple, calm style to calm down.
That said, I have met IEEs with quite Se-like styles, though they are often into style professionally (designer, etc), so I wonder if it's more a "I belong to this group" statement than a Se-seek for sensory perfection?

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I think you're overthinking this.

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I lived with an ILE for long, and he brought in all kinds of colored items that didn't fit the style I tried to create. He found my style "cold": I found his style "messy". Same thing for how we did things. While I have a high tolerance for mess, I sort of still get stressed by mess. I hate when things don't ever get finished, as it's as if my inner is lagging. I somehow identify too much with the surroundings, a bit like how I described above and in my answer to consentingadult in post #3, and

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Then finish things.

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unfinished projects are leaving unfinished business inside me, too. The ILE didn't seem to have ANY trouble moving on to new things, leaving old things unfinished, without it cluttering up his inner in any way. I don't think Ne-egos are identifying with their surroundings much. Similarities between me and the ILE, was a wish to

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I dunno about you, but there's unfinished business inside me, and outside me.

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live simple lives and not let the things own us. Tactics were different - he had fun with the objects, and then let them lie around like wrecks all around the apartment, not even noticing they were still there after months, just learning to walk around them. I wanted to tame the things and get on top of them, so that they didn't create

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Get a bigger house then.

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too much mess in my soul, sort of. Don't know if this is typical of SLEs and ILEs, though, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is. Remember though, that these differences are subtle, since all EPs are running after experiences and most are quite messy and never routinized like rationals are. In other words, they might not be all that easy to spot from the outside. For example, I am guessing I would beat you all having a messy room when I was a teenager.

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I had a messy room as a teenager. I have a messy room now. I don't really care most of the same time. Sometimes there's order, sometimes there's not. Shit happens.

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When I stare at something giving me massive sensory experiences, it's not so much cause of the color itself, Maritsa. I don't care. It's about the effect it has on me. I feel calm, integrated on a soul level, strong, free, relaxed, etc, etc. I'd never think I am caring about colors or shapes so much, as I care about the effect it has on me. I guess that might be why you don't get the answers you think you'll get when you ask Se-types about it, Maritsa?

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Ever taken LSD?

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The weird thing about Se is that I can't stop wanting to make my surroundings "perfect". I want to feel perfect myself, have a perfect soul, if you want, lol, and thus I can't stop organizing the surroundings into neater and neater spaces. I might be messy on my way there, btw, haha,, but there is a goal or a plan there - or at least a vision of how it all should have been, if I was a magician - I try to reach perfection. I think this is what Mikemex talks about when he talks about energy spending tendencies of Se. It's hard to not have perfect around, and since it's often not perfect, I start to fix it. It would have made me such a calm and happy person if I had perfection around. I LOVE perfect places. James Bond style. I'd be so laxed in such places. Aaaahhhh... I'm made for luxury. (And still, strangely enough, totally capable of living without anything but mess and clutter around me. Idk how that's true, too).

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There's no such things as perfection. It's just another illusion. If you make your surroundings perfect you may just realise how empty you are inside.

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And another paradox: whenever I reach something near perfect, I become expansive, so then I run into even bigger trouble in making perfection. It's fun to be me, lol.

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Up and down. That's EP for sure.

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What Mikemex wrote that is good, imo, is the part about energy spending. Se often is, even if it doesn't necessarily want to be, and even if I feel very, very lazy. See above. The rest I don't agree with.

What Maritsa wrote that is good, is the part about Se wanting less impulses than Ne in some sense (as in Se getting stressed in too much info), and I made a simple explanation above, using tangible home decoration as example. If you abstract it to any other socionic's objects, like work, interaction, situations, happenings, history, future, ideas, concepts, anything, the same patterns are visible. Se-egos want "perfect = calm inside" in some sense, Ne-egos want "new stuff= more fun", etc, etc. Both Ne and Se are info and experience hoarders, btw, loving new and shiny, in the EP sense, so look at this info within the limits of EP-ness.

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Shit everywhere you go these days there's too much information. There is a very real concern to everyone about how many things there are to keep up with. Information overload is the norm.

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This post is more speculative than the first ones, btw, as my conclusions are based on more limited observations I have had of Se vs. Si and Ne, and as it is highly subjective, too, since I am a busy person wanting calm, and thus thinking of shapes and colors as "calming". When I was younger and had less responsibilities, I guess I didn't necessarily want "calm" from outer impulses. I can't remember. Anyhow I was seeking effects of impulses on my sensory system rather than impulses in and for themselves also back then.

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You sound so fucking detached when you write like that.

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Originally Posted by Ananke

Are you sure?

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Yes.

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I just think Se gets impulses to act if things are out of order, and that they don't like it when things get so much out of order they feel they lose control.
Have you ever tried watching an IEI over a couple of years? Bills forgotten, tax papers forgotten, job offers expiring, their life slowly going down the drain cause of inaction and increasing amount of left behind opportunities. They aren't very stressed by it, somehow. Somehow they can stand that situation much better than me. I can be messy, but I have a keen awareness of having to do important things, and get them done in time, or manage to talk myself out of a situation where I'm too late. In any case, mess never takes me over, but if it does, I'm pretty miserable. I don't talk about a messy room, btw. I talk about a messed up life situation. Chaos under control is not a problem. IEIs aren't as stressed by all their mess. if they were, they'd all be dead long time ago, I think. Maybe it's just a personal quirk, or E8-ness, idk, but I don't like losing control.

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I dunno, bills and taxes and job offers aren't that significant in general.

If you look at the root cause, most issues like that getting out of hand are due to inadequete cash flow, or not focusing on such things. It's easy to pay bills automatically, doing your own taxes only really happens when you work for yourself here, which usually means time pressures. Job offers - well just because there's a job offer doesn't mean you need to take it.

Maybe it's not so much a strength in yourself, but a weakness. A need to deal with things immediately, rather than let things work themselves out in time. You can not pay your power, and keep your power on for a while. It's generally okay to be 30 to 60 days behind on bills. Sure, it may make it harder on the recepient, and may sour relationships, but if it's a power company or such why care? Bill management under financial pressures is a kind of chaos under control. Often people in these situations don't have enough incoming money.

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The pictures give an idea of what I talk about.

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That you're superficial?

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Fire is rather hypnotizing, no?

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I dunno, it's something.

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LSD isn't Se, lol.

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You might enjoy it. It might break this illusion of control in managing everyday ordinary life things you seem to keep grasping at.

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Maybe I'm not involved when I write like that, then

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Involve yourself.

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Originally Posted by Leader

As for Estp we are usually reserved and in complete control..its either that or sanguine and happy go lucky, but we sooner learn that the world is a cold hard fucked up place...no one cares about you. Logic rules.

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If as @Ananke says that this is more an enneagram 8 trait then I guess that gives credence to my husbands thoughts that I am an 8.

I'll speak for myself...I don't even care about the enneagram anymore, it might have some validity..but not much. Socionics is what people should be focused on in my honest opinion, its the best/most accurate theory on personality/psyche so far. A year or two ago, I would have said that im 8w7...because do to my life experiences and this underlying anger that I have due to my life experiences, I wanted to take control of my destiny. Something happened, I had a fucked up life changing experience with my dual and it took me a year of grieving and contemplating about life to humble me. I no longer stress over having complete control over my destiny, somethings are out of my hands and im starting to see certain patterns in life. I no longer type as 8, I no longer type as anything in the enneagram. But thats just me.

The description I gave was how ESTps generally come across...in terms of temperament. And general, it seems to me that the more mature and experienced the Estp is, the more balanced they become, not too much Se energy and no too much Ti stoicness. Ofcourse individuals vary. This seems to be the case with all types, the more mature/experienced the individual is, the more they can focus on all functions rather than what they are naturally good at. Things such as genetics, environment, life experiences all contribute to the person's over personality and their development of their functions, which is why a type might for example be able to do something or be in a career that isn't generally associated with that type.

Those descriptions of each type are just like base temperaments, but depending on the individual and how they use all their functions (we can be even better at certain functions other than our base), they might look slightly different, its like different layers to one core personality. No individual is the same.

Im starting to see it like this...it usually helps if the person is dualized...or in otherwords has a strong sense and understanding of their first two main functions, or else they will be ill/look strange/out of place/unnatural. Then the development of other functions can take place.

Now i'll use myself as an example. Im ESTp, im aware of both my Se and Ti and use them exceptionally well. But in terms of development (and using the knowledge of socionics to my advantage), if I want to develop in one area of my life... i'll first take in the environment with my Se...then sort out the information with my Ti. Every other function is under the conscious control of my Ti. I take in the info with my Se, sort it with my Ti, and if I want to use another function other than Ti like say Fe for example...my Ti goes into the background but im still using it to control my Fe so to speak. At first, it was like when I tried to use Fe it would naturally be accompanied with Se when im in the moment, but that usually comes off too strong, so ive had to use my Ti to make my Fe more smoother and not as aggressive. Certain things might not come natural to me, but for me...using my Ti and with experience I get better at them, and will look much better to other people although probably with not as much depth as someone who uses that function naturally.

I've come to a realization....

Right now, im trying to get this INFj girl that I like. I've been thinking alot about the situation and gathering alot of info. One thing I read from a poster on one of the russian forums was to use more of your role. My role is Ne, so all day i've been literally focusing on developing my Ne. With all the research im doing, and by communicating with my conflictor for a while...if it goes on long enough i'll be a different person from what I am today, because im focusing more on my Fi and Ne (and hers too) when im around her...even if im naturally Se and Ti. Its all about developing and maturing and discovering yourself in the process, and others will be able to the change as well too. Not only that but ill be able to deal with the stress of Ne and Fi situations more because of my experiences and understanding with her, hopefully she can tell me something about myself that I am not noticing.

I see life through one lens only (although my experiences and knowledge of life and socionics helps me see a bit through the eyes of other people), due to my life...she sees it through the complete opposite because of her personality and her experiences. Im very tough and understand the material world...she looks so weak that I just want to protect her, but when I look into her eyes its kind of attractive yet intimidating because I know her inner reality and whats going on in her mind is pretty tough, shes good with her feelings and im not. We come from two different realities, but hopefully if we are together for a while we'll be able probably come out with a better, more complete picture of how real life is.

Also I know you Ne users have said things about how you use your own Ne, would be nice if you elaborated more. Im going to read the rest of the thread for your responses though. Im trying to develop my Ne.