I have some trouble translating the Si polr I know in ENTjs to ENFjs. Can some of you give some descriptions here?
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I have some trouble translating the Si polr I know in ENTjs to ENFjs. Can some of you give some descriptions here?
The main difference I can see, is an ENFj tries hard to compensate, refuse to admit that they are weak in that area. I could think of some examples maybe, but I'm pretty sure I'm not really giving you what you want...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ms. Kensington
aren't ENTjs more like INTjs in the sense that they aren't very aware of their surroundings and aesthetics? or well, perhaps they are aware, but insecure of pushing their tastes on people. then ENFjs are always in some state of discomfort or pain and need strong sensations? perhaps provided by some gordon ramsay-ish ISTj chef.
like the description of the si polr here - http://the16types.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3763 - ENFj
versus here -
http://the16types.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3101 - ENTj
seems like the ENTj tries more to hide their discomfort.
i actually relate with this. i'll probably get a maid one day because i don't like housework in the first place + i really detest the idea of becoming overloaded with housework + working full time and i don't see myself ever meeting anyone who would willingly help me with this. i'd like to think i could do one or the other, but never both. think i inherited too many of my dad's tendencies here. i don't see marriage in my future for a very long time, if ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by stratievskaya
Well I am an ENFj and my best friend is an ENTj; he is actually very unaware of what he does (he often leaves his car lights on, for gets his keys, phone, wallet etc.) and I find myself reminding him all the time. He also finds it amusing to see other people suffer and sees feelings as a weakness which I have a problem with since I "feeling" oriented and he tends to piss me off with some very cruel jokes (verbal ones). He also says that I tend to be very ilogical (which I disagree with) and that sometimes or that I can be too direct with what I think and that I fail to see reality. Other than that we have a lot in common and tend to think a like.Quote:
Originally Posted by implied
I think it is an inability to relax, inability to be patient, and inability and wait anywhere. They're always looking at what's coming next. As soon as they get anywhere, they are ready to move onto the next place.
OK here's a story. When I was little, my family went to the lake (I'm from Michigan so lake means REALLY REALLY BIG LAKE) and my parents insisted on leaving the house at like 8 am or something. We got to this very lovely beach at a quaint little resort town at like 9:30 am. We started splashing around a bit and my ENFj dad said, "Let's have lunch." We said we weren't really hungry yet but my mom (ENTj) got lunch together anyway. Then, after a bit more splashing, my dad said, "OK, we've eaten, the kids are wet, let's go home." We were back home by noon. So much for our day at the beach.
May I say that this kind of thing drives me absolutely bonkers.
In addition to having an Si PoLR, my dad is completely crazy, so it might not be as exaggerated in other Si-PoLR people. But this kind of general thing happened over and over and over again when I was a kid. I didn't know amusement parks were open after it got dark. I thought everyone left for big trips at like 5 am. I thought everyone ate early if they could so they could move onto the next thing, whether they were hungry or not. I always wondered who saw the third period of a hockey game. We always left after the second intermission so we could beat the crowd home. I hated leaving early! Why couldn't we just sit and relax, and maybe relax in our seats for a little bit after the game until the crowd had moved out, if it was such a big deal?
This Si PoLR stuff all sounds very much like me. Wait, so let me get this straight -- forgetting stuff, like house keys, turning lights off, generally being very inefficient in daily, practical matters is related to bad :Si:? I thought it was related to bad :Te:...
These are some :Si: polr things that I have witnessed:
- Health uncertainty. Especially with :Ni: creative, they are worries. Need outside reassurance from other people that their health and current moment state, the present reality, is not too overwhelming for them. If they do not have such people, their health can decline easily. Require positivity from other people - despite themselves being emotionally dominant.
- Clumsiness, especially for ENFjs. They can be dramatic and charismatic, but often in a dreamy way.
- Trouble caring for other people - ENFjs may enjoy cooking, especially in the traditional female role - but can feel a great deal of pressure in such situations. One ENFj I know stresses a great deal about preparing meals for her family, even though she is a fine cook in reality.
- Related to 1 and 3: Also, they may over-apply treatments, and over-rest when ill. A very poor sense of recommendations when it comes to health in general. The same ENFj I mentioned clearly does not want to know what is wrong with her when she goes to the doctor, just what she needs to do (:Ti: seeking). If she knows too much, she will worry herself into despair.
- Victim: trouble maintaining relations with people. Expecting an aggressor to initiate things with them, sometimes ENFjs lose contact with people simply because they are unsure of how to care about them and maintain a relationship - consider how they look for an ISTj's constant presence and influence. Similarly, when they do like you, they can lavishly over-gift and give more than they need too, should they consider you in a rough spot and in need of warnings, money, sympathy, etc --- so long as you are being wise about how you use it, of course.
- Continuing from the previous section -- seem to have a tendency to spoil people they care about a great deal. One ENFj treats her dog to any sort of goody available, and, consequently, the dog is obese and extremely gluttonous. Overcompensates by excessively pouring gifts or treats in hopes to win appeasement or emotional appeal - similar to the ESE, but with much less skill or quantity awareness. Easily overdoes things in this way. (Again, consider the dual - LSI).
Yes. They handle all forms of physical discomfort very poorly. In extremely bad cases, they can rationalize their actions based on their need for comfort, notably their requirement of a safe place to stay. May be prone to maintaining poor relationships based on comfort provided or luxuries/wealth - security ( again, consider the dual - LSI)Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunder
Is this how Ti seeking works? This seems backwards to me, at least the way I understand it - wouldn't someone seeking Te be more concerned with what to do than why? And someone seeking Ti wanting to know the reasoning? I could see it both ways - I understand Ti is concerned with conciseness, so they might just say the conclusion, whereas Te would be explicit in their reasoning probably. But Te is more concerned with independent facts than coherency, so someone seeking Te would probably be looking for what to do (the steps, the facts) rather than why (how what needs to be done fits together with their view of the world), and someone seeking Ti would want to know why everything was being done. Right?Quote:
Originally Posted by UDP
If someone is :Ti: seeking, they want terse, yes/no sort of answers. If they are :Te: seeking, they want a list of facts and ideas so they can be convinced. Too much information (Te) for an Fe type leaves them confused and overwhelmed - they need the most important facts, and not to be cluttered.
Yes.Quote:
I could see it both ways - I understand Ti is concerned with conciseness, so they might just say the conclusion, whereas Te would be explicit in their reasoning probably.
I have Si PoLR and I lose stuff. My husband's leading function is Si and he can NEVER find his keys. I need to staple them to him. He always forgets his cell phone at work and I end up having to drive it out to him.
Anyway, this stuff is not type related IMO.
OK I thought of how to explain what I was thinking last night.
Si PoLR is directly related to Ni creative function. I think our PoLRs are PoLRs because they directly conflict with our creative function. Like your creative function is unable to create around the PoLR, therefore it is a PoLR.
So like creative Ni is "keep moving forward, keep moving forward". Then Si is "RELAX". But you can't move forward and relax at the same time, therefore Si is your PoLR.
No, I have dual-seeking Si. My parents both have Si PoLR. But my point is misplacing things has nothing to do with Si PoLR.
I have noticed that, too. But I don't think it's general.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunder
My mom has issues with this but I always figured it was her Calvinist upbringing. I don't think my dad has any issues with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Expat
seems like infps and enfjs always want to be naked so dunno if this works.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
It's ridiculous but I have actually noticed this as well :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ms. Kensington
:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
Those matters are Si related. Perhaps in MBTT it is a different case; perhaps it is related to lack of Te, or Perceiving types. In socionics, I think bad Te is more to do with intellectual disorganisation as opposed to physical disorganisation.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScarlettLux
Te is usually mostly lack of intellectual organization. Te types just want things organized on the level of practicality, Fe types value Ti, so they are much more likely to try to keep things organized. And the head of a Te type is just full of small facts about different things and wider knowledge that is not connected to each other. There doesn't have to be any link between separate parts of information. I would not call this intellectual organisation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezra
I keep thinking about my keys and where I saw then and all that. And I have a very clear routine to always remember to take them with me when I'm going out... But I am very bad at maintaining physical habits. Like when I tried to learn dancing, I made a system to remember the steps and it all worked just fine, but when I started just dancing, I messed it all up. And I create associations when I memorize things, but I keep forgetting the words. It's totally a matter of chance if I remember something or I don't. And it can be sooo frustrating. I'm very bad at functioning in organized systems. Like when I go to a doctor, I get a million questions about whether I need to take my file out or do I just stand in line, do I have to call first... and I can't just "wing it" because then I'd be wasting time standing in line or pissing them off not calling first. And there's no information about it anywhere! Or when I changed my name, there were suddenly a million places where my name is filed incorrectly. And it's all a blur to me. But that kinda sounds like weak Te to me.
Just wait a moment. An evolved Te type will surely know also the Ti system behind his knowledge, especially in his field of expertise. That won't be his priority of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristiina
yeah, but ENFjs end up using more Ti than Te types. Despite the fact that the theory says Te types should be very good at Ti.
How can you have Si PoLR if you're an IEE? Or did you mean "I don't have Si PoLR and I lose stuff"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
Okay, what else should I know about Kristionics?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristiina
I am not really sure about this honestly. This is probably true say, in an academic setting or while executing a task, but socially an ENFj will not really care about logical consistency of her thoughts and actions IME whereas an ENTj is likely to pick up discrepancies very well. It's just like how an ENTj may use lots of Fi in his very close relationships but suck/don't care about it when interacting with acquaintances, as opposed to an ENFj which would probably be more "stable" in its usage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristiina
yeah, I agree with that. ENTj will have a stronger Ti when he's not thinking about it, and the same with ENFj and Fi. Yeah, when doing intellectual tasks, ENFj will prefer the Ti approach, and the ENTj will prefer the Te approach. Like for example, when we wrote a research paper with a group, I was the one to get very strict about having all the topics well organized even though we had one INTp and two INFjs in the group. :) But the teacher is INFp, so it turned out well.Quote:
Originally Posted by FDG
An anecdote on that from my former ENFj boss (I am writing more or less what he said, from memory, for effect, obviously it's not 100% accurate).
"Once I bought an used Range Rover for 500 Euros, when I lived in the French countryside. I just saw it for sale on the road, I saw myself driving it, and I had to buy it. It was great! Driving a Range Rover! But altogether I never drove it more than 10 miles. It was losing fuel, there was a hole in the bottom through which I could see the ground, and it finally died. I ended up just throwing it away. But I fulfilled the dream of having a Range Rover!"
This is Si PoLR with Te in the super-ego -- he was dismissing as unimportant the actual "physicality" of the Range Rover, its reality and its practicality, in favor of his vision of just having a Range Rover.
Another example was when Kristiina said, in reply to my comment on living in a castle that had no plumbing, "who cares about plumbing when you can say you live in a castle like that!"
:D yeah, I did say that. And I still want to live in a castle!
D&D girls :8*Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristiina
:P
That's self-evident. LIE is part of a Te-valuing quadra, and the EIE is part of a Ti-valuing one. Since the EIE is strong in neither Ti or Te, they'll use that which is prefered, and in the EIE's case, it is the Ti; their suggestive function.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristiina
That sounds a lot like my ENFj ex girlfriend. She'd have fantastic "dreams", as you put it, and would get VERY upset when I told her they were shit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Expat
Comparing between ENFj and ENTj --
Both ENFjs and ENTjs are likely to not be particularly good working with their hands, but the ENTj will tend to respect those who are (such as the stereotypical ISTp), while the ENFj is more likely to go, "who wants to do manual work anyway".
On the other hand, the ENFj is more likely to respect those who can cook well, for instance.
Both ENFjs and ENTjs find detailed paperwork boring, but the ENTj usually just needs a Se push to do it, while the ENFj tends to think he shouldn't have to do it.
The ENTj's ideal situation is not to have to concern himself with aesthetic details at all. The ENFj will more often be worried about getting them right if the situation calls for it, but the ENFj's "inner sanctum" of his private space, if nobody else is likely to see it, will be as spartan/chaotic as the ENTj's.
Both tend to have difficulty with just sitting there and relaxing, as Slacker Mom said.
What's the likelihood of an ESFj saying somethig similar?Quote:
Originally Posted by Expat
I think both ENFjs and ENTjs hate being told to "just relax" when they are in an impatient state of mind and/or action.Quote:
Originally Posted by introspectivedolphin
Saying as in "really meaning it as something obvious": it's very unlikely. I have traveled with three different ESFj women (on different occasions), even staying with two of them in a real castle (heh), and no matter how they might like a castle on the outside, if it lacked things like indoor plumbing they'd say "no way I'm living in this place".Quote:
Originally Posted by force my hand
Yes! Ti is about explanation, whereas Te is about operation. I don't think any logic-leading types are likely to give simple yes/no answers, actually. It gives them a chance to show off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elro
I don't buy this. When I ask a question, I want a straight-up answer with no excess data. When I ask a Te type, they are likely to get into detail about how and why it's good. And I start asking EXTREMELY specific questions to stop them from doing that. In the end I'll get something like, "well, yes, in that sort of situation, one might say that this is a relatively better option, but if..." and I say, "okay, great, that's what I needed to know!". There are extremely few types who can give me fast clear answers - ISTjs and ESTps. And my husband most of the time. (because I ask him "if you were in that situation, would you do that? How about that? Why?"). If the quick answer doesn't match my own expectation, ONLY then do I ask for an explenation. Otherwise I don't need it. It like a way to confirm my own system.Quote:
Originally Posted by thehotelambush
I think that has more to do with Se than Ti, actually. *edit*
But Gamma SFs are pretty blunt and to-the-point too.
I had the worst Si PoLR torture today. I was in aerobics and I couldn't follow the moves. I tried, but I kept messing them up. I picked the aerobics markes as having the easiest routines! But the routine is different each time and I haven't been able to correctly do even one full routine. I'm a beginner, but it still sucks. So yeah, everyone was dancing and moving, and I tried to copy them, but half the time I couldn't do anything. I considered just walking out, pretending to be dizzy, but I couldn't bring myself to do that either. I waited it out, kept trying. It was so hopeless that I almost felt like crying. I know I'm not the only beginner there so other people should also have problems with it. Also, even the parts that I really do understand, when I keep my eyes on the instructor's feet, I am ok, but when she stops, I have no idea what I'm doing. And I tried just looking at my own feet from the mirror, but it all got messed up. And then I tried to simply notice what I myself am doing, but it got really weird. I did't recognize any of the steps and I had no idea what to do next. And I can never add the hand movements, because then I might as well try the routine standing on my head. Hopeless.
But I'm gonna keep going there, hoping it will be better. Sometimes it's pretty ok. And the music is great. And this is the first time it was so bad.
aw.
hahah i can relate to being the slowest person to get something physical.. it is so embarrassing.
What you speak about is just related to not having played sports as a kid and thus lacking in coordination. Even strong sensors that didn't tend to have exactly the same problems.
Well, I'm not a terrible dancer in general, but I tend to occasionally forget what I'm doing and mess up the rhytm or the steps. I played sports games when I was little, but nothing that really required coordination... I can see Si-sensors having problems with it, but not Se-sensors. At least not this level of incompetence. And Si sensors would be different, because even when I do aerobics/dance, I'm always very rigid. That was the case even when I was quite flexible from doing tai chi.
PS! I hope you're not thinking of the ISFjs you've typed. :)
No...but I know some ESTjs and ISTps that suck at it....
Isn't that more Se?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristiina
:Si: , :Si:
You know what I can't understand is how an ENFj thinks sex is a gross thing to talk about. Having a rough time handling this. I've also noticed in the media that if someone offers some Si or Se, an ENFj (not sure about INFps) will shrink away. But I wonder if that is a victim's way of inviting more Se.
C'mon people, everybody can learn how to dance with a lil practice
[quote="implied"]aren't ENTjs more like INTjs in the sense that they aren't very aware of their surroundings and aesthetics? or well, perhaps they are aware, but insecure of pushing their tastes on people. then ENFjs are always in some state of discomfort or pain and need strong sensations? perhaps provided by some gordon ramsay-ish ISTj chef.
That guy is not an ISTJ. Chefs, the most sucessful ones, are almost always ISTP. If that guy ever talked to me like he talked to the people on his shows i'd fucking kill him.
I think since ENFJs can help others to a detriment to themselves the polr makes them reel back, relax, work to manage money and care for themselves better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
I don't really get it either. Just doing nothing is fine, until you get bored of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
you're intuitive subtype right? this is the attitude I see with them. Rather, they are sort of like INFps and they like to flirt and provoke but nothing ever comes from it.. it's a headfuck sometimes. Do you want it or don't you? haha.Quote:
Originally Posted by lefty
Ethical sub seems .. different but um.. yeah I just don't understand. I can't think of an Se parallel with my polr. Maybe ENFjs or Si polr's just don't like talking about it that way but respond to action.
PS: i seem to like bitchiness :)
"I think it is an inability to relax, inability to be patient, and inability and wait anywhere. They're always looking at what's coming next. As soon as they get anywhere, they are ready to move onto the next place."
Slacker Mom is smart and right on the money. ENXj's loathe and fear homeostasis. It isn't about aesthetics, lol. The sound of silence is my enemy.
Jadae welcome back, I am interested in this, what is it about the sound of silence that bothers you? What sort of sensations do you experience when things are silent?
Personally, I have to spend a lot of my time (I mean like several hours each day) in silence or with white noise only and preferably in darkness or I can easily become very un-calm and stressed. Mentally, my natural state is usually really calm and silent and when I am forced out of this state by something in the external enviroment bugging me I feel really unglued and stressed. To be a bit dramatic, I liken the feeling to what it must be like for some poor baby being ripped from his mother's warm, dark womb after 9months of rest and be suddenly faced with a cold, overly bright hospital room. Too much activity especially with bright light is the surest and most effective way to torture me.
It makes me feel panicky, trapped, bored.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan
Agree with Jadae completely. It seems like I rarely if ever have that nice, calm feeling you describe within yourself ... I sort of wish I had though. It is very hard for me to understand in others, though I am trying to - a certain person who I was very close with before was probably in an Si/Ne quadra and had that same value placed on Si that I did not. He is always in a calm state, no matter what - is this more Ixxj or Ixxp would you think? I'm thinking the former ... unflappable temperament and such. It is evidently something I need to balance me out.
Btw: some other thoughts on :Si: PoLR, at least in myself - it's really difficult to settle down in thoughts ... my mind is constantly on overdrive but perhaps that is more of an individual problem than anything else. I can hardly get to sleep some nights because of this issue. Actually, scrap that - it is an individual problem ... must get some natural health product to help me sleep better =[ Don't know what's wrong with me! < --- oh man, that is probably a perfect example of :Si: PoLR! Not knowing what is wrong with me, and stressing over it insanely.
I am a heavy hypochondriac and a worrier. I exude a lot of nervous behaviour and people know me for being high-strung and anxious. I do have anxiety problems already and since I can't deal with anxiety, I am wondering if other EIEs have similar problems? I mean, I know it is intense for me, but even on a lower level, do you have trouble with your bodily functions and just knowing whether or not you are "normal" or "healthy"?
I also tend to convince myself I am more unhealthy than I am ... it is like I am almost wanting to prove to others that I am incapable of taking care of my health, therefore crying out for attention ... for someone to take care of me in that sense. I actually read Rick's blog one time re: the unhealthy sides of PoLRs and yikes, the EIE one is so true for me - "prove to everyone that they are sick"
Oh yeah, forgot to mention that I overdo it with my work-outs and my eating habits are totally messed up... I am very insecure with my physical appearance, similar to how onetreehilluver mentioned ... hmm. It's just a sense of never being comfortable in one's skin I suppose.
One last thing that probably sums up :Si: PoLR - not being able to live in the present moment!
Yeah, Ive had a really high startle response my entire life. I dont have anxiety, but I am always anxious.
re: eating habits. try to stick to whole foods, mostly :) you'll prolly feel better over time. I cannot believe how much F'ing vegetable oil and/or corn syrup is in everything!!!
I can feel like that too, not really panicky but trapped and bored. This only happens when I am in areas with a lot of people with a lot of activity around me. If I am home alone then I never get bored because I am in my own space and I have set it up so that I always have something to do or just relax and do not much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jadae
@Scarrlett that sounds a bit hard. I am an E6 type so I am suppose to be anxious a lot , I don't get the anxiety unless there is something going really wrong and I try to control it so that things are predictable and not much goes wrong at least what I can control anyway. When I get anxious I just sleep or meditate or exercise, one of those things eventually works, well unless things are just damn bad which sometimes happens despite my best efforts. I am a hypochrondriac too, lol, I have every disease going, a life threatening one nearly every month it sometimes amuses me that I am such a hypochondriac. I just have learnt to ignore the hypochrondria a bit and tell myself that it is me just being alarmist again. Every intuitive feeler I know of is a hypochrondriac.
Yeah, my mom is like that. I always just try to do one on one time w/ her. Sometimes I treat her to some random movie during the day time when no one is there. She likes the escape, and to be able to see me cause I'm always here and there a lot. She gets panicky around a lot of people. I only get panicky around of people if the atmosphere feels vile to me (strange but true). I couldnt work retail when I was younger (teen) because it made me feel literally ill. I couldnt be superficial, which is what is called for compared to my relative standards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan
how do ENFjs ever procreate ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ms. Kensington
bump. any more examples and anecdotes of how disregard and blindness towards Si shows up in EIEs' attitude and behaviors?
lol I read this as over procreate and was :shock:Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevero
talk about Si polr oy vey (Vic Dibitetto - EIE-Fe)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6zaVYWLTkU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zty7Ur6eL54
& more Si-PoLR continuing here (Charlize Theron - EIE-Ni)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgQMW4eVrzw