in your experience and/or theorization, what are LIEs and ESIs likely to butt heads about?
LIEs are still elusive to me irl and i don't have any particular reason for asking, just writing this post got me thinking & curious.
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in your experience and/or theorization, what are LIEs and ESIs likely to butt heads about?
LIEs are still elusive to me irl and i don't have any particular reason for asking, just writing this post got me thinking & curious.
Well for a LIE-ESI couple I know, they fought like cats and dogs all the time over minor issues but agreed on all big issues so it worked for them. She said they were passionate--Idk to me they seemed like the description deems them: "robotic"
In my own experience I've conflicted with LIEs ( I only know LIE-Nis) over lots.
lots. and lots. and it's usually pretty intense.
and we usually get over it and if we don't time tends to and then it's okay again.
But I'm thinking about my ex. with LIE friends, well, Idk I don't tend to fight with friends unless one of us thinks the other is making a huge mistake in their life and the other doesn't agree. But it tends to also sort itself out after a bit of time.
But also from outsider's view it can look like fighting- I tend to tease a lot and so do they, so it's constant push-pull.. Which makes it never all that boring but it can also be frustrating.
Obviously I'm not ESI or LIE so can't comment directly on that, but ime, if there is anything to Socionics, it's that you may perceive a dual (or activity) partner differently than others do, and differently by far than the canned descriptions make things out. In my own life, where someone else might see how logical and somewhat rigid my partner seems, I actually see all the chinks in that particular suit of armor. First, I don't have a lot of patience with the rigidity, and I push pretty hard (lots of teasing) to make things squishier and less serious. Second, the logic is ... just not adequate. I mean, we don't skate through life on pure logic, not if we don't want to be all lopsided and weak. He can't easily get out of logic zone, but I can sort of dovetail with him so he experiences how incomplete that state of being really is.
Also, introvert/extrovert lineups seem to have one person dealing more with reality checking (the extro), and the other (intro) calling for getting to grips with things if the inner stuff is being ignored in favor of action. Etc.
This sort of stuff absolutely can lead to conflict, and lots of it. Who better to call someone on their BS than the person who sees it most clearly AND loves you despite it? It's almost like an obligation to call BS. But it still seems like conflict that leads somewhere. It's not just about two people pummeling each other to dust.
^ yeah.
Absolutely.
I feel like a better, more rounded version of myself after rubbing against LIEs that I'm very close with. Also it helps knowing I can always make the LIEs i've known laugh-- they get my humor and I feel like they defend me when I need it. Also any bullshit I've ever played before doesn't work on them, they either see it and play along or completely destroy and idea that I have that it's a good way. Plus I love facts and they spout off random facts a lot. Pretty cool.
And Idk, one of LIE friends says I'm extremely loyal, whilst ever trying to see how far I can push his buttons, We prod and coax each other.
And most are pretty intelligent and like to talk about the same subjects I do.
Even extensively about time-travel, space contium, cryogenics..
Awww.Quote:
Originally Posted by blackburry
:love: :love: :love: :love: :love:
My ESI roommate has an LIE best friend and they are ridiculously cute. For a while the LIE girl was also living at our place though, and that was awkward b/c although I thought she was super cool I didn't always know how to make conversation with her. But they are adorable.
Ooh ohhh tell us what they were like!Quote:
Originally Posted by lemontrees
Any quarrels?
i was going to make a thread, but this would just as well go here...
from the LIE-ESI duality description here: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ity-Work-Meged
whats your take on this?Quote:
Their relations have a pulsating nature, as do relations of other members of 2nd and 3rd quadra, for whom fighting spirit and orientation at victory are characteristic. Fluctuations and contrasts in their relations only serve as a guarantee of their longevity...The saying: "Fights of lovers are only confessions of love" – is often about them.
i read it and heaved an annoyed sigh, lol. on one hand i can see how it might be necessary. but on the other hand i just want to be fucking happy, kwim? realistically how can this be healthy, especially if a couple has kids together? i know descriptions tend to be exaggerated - how much would you say it is in this case?
I'd say it can swing both ways. I do think couples should fight once in a while. even if it's just to say, "We've been together for so long, I'm annoyed by how long we've been together.."Quote:
Originally Posted by lungs
I, personally, like a few big fights once in a while (meaning maybe once every six months) but I don't seek it out. nor would I start one just to start one unless I'm really pissed about something.
I'm being called away at work. I shall come back and add more.
I personally don't like big fights. I'm one of those people who take "negative" comments very personally and remembers them for a long time (yes I know it's a character "fault", but I can't change that at will), so if those load up I'm going to harbor bitterness. Of course if you're arguing about something "practical" or relatively impersonal then maybe it makes sense. I do like some semi-constant teasing and light trolling, much better than "fighting".
I know one LIE-ESI couple who fights a lot. They seem to enjoy calling each other names. They're E8 (lie) and E6 (esi), and I think they're getting married next year so...it works for them.
I don't like big fights--doesn't mean I haven't been in some. If the Gottman marriage research is correct (about "emotional flooding"), a couple could sound very argumentative and it wouldn't be a big deal, so long as they were not getting physiologically worked up. And a couple could seem fairly calm or restrained but be seriously hurting each other all the same.
Anything that can be used as a perfect excuse to engage in a BDSM session.Quote:
Originally Posted by lungs
its not fighting that i really have a problem with so much. its feeling insecure about the groundwork of the relationship. but the emphasis in the description i linked (and in ni/se relationship descriptions in general) seems to be on playing off that insecurity to maintain interest and to feel accomplished as a couple for having dealt with it. and 1) i have mixed feelings, generally negative, about that to begin with - i can see the appeal but like i said, i just want to be fucking happy, lol, and 2) i just don't see how that could be healthy or how that kind of dynamic would actually play out day-to-day in a sane relationship.
(this has taken a divergent turn but the generic "what do LIEs and ESIs fight about" question is still open)Quote:
PT (LIE) makes life of RF (ESI) eventful and interesting – he brings elements of novelty, unpredictability and romance, stirs and enlivens emotions, although often this occurs after strong shake-ups hovering on the verge of a breakup. But this is necessary for both of them, to appreciate each other more, and each time to feel the strength of their union, that will last any tests.
^^ fuck, I'd say for my actual romantic relationships, it's a bit spot on. However it's not like that kind of thing happens every day, all day. An event will happen-- he and i handle them differently and perhaps we're both disappointed in the other, however, I don't feel smothered by his faults.... I don't feel like he's an absolute idiot who has lost my respect, it's more like we'll bicker for an hour or two until we understand the others view and then viola, it's crystal clear and you understand why they acted as such and the respect is still there. And things go right back to normal. But it's taken a lot to get to that point. Now it's easy to see an LIEs viewpoint imo ( idk i react a lot better to them critizing me than anyone else-- it's natural, I dont even think about functions, socionics...
Very true and it often works out better when both members are conflict avoidant, volatile, or in the middle rather than an avoidant paired with a volatile person.Quote:
Originally Posted by COMFINED
I haven't had too much experience with conflict with LIEs but I think the biggest thing I get annoyed about with the ones I have met is their large egos and difficulty admitting when they are wrong.
Generally, my experience had been ridiculously pleasant. We never saw conflict as a bad thing and saw each other's opposition as an opportunity to learn something new. Mutual friends who tried to meddle or assert that we were fighting was unconsciously tagged teamed by me and him.
Basically, we called them out for trying to get in our business. He and I had a type of arrogance where we knew we've got everything handled.
--
In retrospect, I don't think we fought much as we hated/disliked the same things. Our differences were on trivial matters. We quickly found compromise on those things.
You're going to get tag teamed for writing that soon, Boom.
Now that I remember, I have more than once had some trouble with very religious ISFjs.
Yes, I know ridiculing religious people is bad...but I really can't help it lol. I have gottten better at it but I will relase some snarky comment here and theere anyway.
Ehhh, the LIE I know (my S.O. Finale) claims that the ESI was constantly trying to fight useless battles for him, that he didn't give half a whit about (stuff that wasn't pertinent... meaningless details). He told her to stop doing it, but she wouldn't... she would sneak around and do it anyways.
I think he liked her, but..... it was not what he wanted long-term. He claims there wasn't enough of an intellectual connection; that she didn't interest him for the long-term.
LIEs from what I've experienced are very independent and they don't want to be babied in any way.... in fact, they would rather be the ones doing the baby'ing.
Yea, they won't ever admit it, from my experiences, although they will determine it and you know they know it. They act on it. But you've gotta be pretty swift on the "proving it", because they'll stick to their guns. But if you prove it, they'll find you capable and they'll act accordingly, not through words but through actions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bardia
My $0.02 worth of theorizing:Quote:
Originally Posted by lungs
In random contacts, I guess general values may be the main thing - single women and young men are overrepresented among brainless leftwingers, married women and older men among heartless libertarians or neocons; this difference is an endless supply of fuel for silly arguments. Also and relatedly, the confused and closed minds of the godless vs the rigid and similarly closed ones of the religious is a reliable source of friction in close quarters.
In family relationships, my bet is that minutiae of daily life is the top source of friction. In America and the Anglosphere, issues of religion, politics, use of money and minutiae of lifestyle are sure to surface.
(Im esi se subtype I think. Just started dating an lie. I think. Anyway to me its curious how happy go lucky they are and how much that eases your emotions. I also dated one in high-school but hated him. Maybe our subtypes were incompatible? I dunno I'll be able to see how much the optimistic attitude I can handle. (Edited to say that so far I love it)
Short answer from my experience: LIE has to learn to dedicate more time to family/friends (including to the ESI himself). Left on their own devices they could get too absorbed in their work. My father has spent 2 thirds of his life working (at work). Maybe the sp/so stack is also at play here, dunno. LIEs don't place too much value on being physically there (and actively communicating or doing cool things together) in order to know or to think they're involved. Theirs is more of an implied way of "caring" - spot-on and level-headed advice when ppl need it, financial aid, sometimes solving bureaucratic issues etc. They can also get excessively critical at times not understanding personality nuances -- approaching stuff from a standardized (and conventionally secure/reliable) pov. My father still thinks people who work as freelancers are leading a very dangerous life, walking on a rope up in the sky etc. What is precisely calculable and predictable and can ensure a totally controllable future should be everyone's heaven on earth. In other aspects: imo Te folks draw a map of ppl from a purely external pov (cause>actions) and then it's quite understandable that they dislike unpredictability and try to keep everything under control (theirs), since they can be easily taken by surprise when someone behaves in a different way coz of a mood or simply another way of expression.
Dating-wise: the LIE I dated briefly this year could be very stubborn about some things not realizing (or not considering it important) that they could make the other uncomfortable. For instance, he would insist on paying and not splitting the bill when we went out with the sole argument that he makes more money than me. So conflict would ensue.
Just answering for myself here, other guys can have a completely different attitude, but I wouldn't relate. It's very important for me to do stuff with my partner. I don't know how it will be when I have kids since they can have very different preferences so perhaps I would be more inclined to just let them "do their thing"...Quote:
Originally Posted by Agni
Idk, I think it's dangerous if you have a family but if you're alone, not really, it's easy to at least scrape by. Anyway parents are always risk averse towards their children...Quote:
My father still thinks people who work as freelancers are leading a very dangerous life
Ahah. I totally do this. I'm even able to seriously damage years long partnerships on the basis of fairly minor disagreeements.Quote:
Dating-wise: the LIE I dated briefly this year could be very stubborn about some things not realizing (or not considering it important) that they could make the other uncomfortable. For instance, he would insist on paying and not splitting the bill when we went out with the sole argument that he makes more money than me. So conflict would ensue.
"
My father still thinks people who work as freelancers are leading a very dangerous life
Idk, I think it's dangerous if you have a family but if you're alone, not really, it's easy to at least scrape by. Anyway parents are always risk averse towards their children..."
I think some people are too busy with other things and don't read everything written on here, so misunderstandings or misinterpretations come easily. I was just describing my father's opinion on freelancing, in general. Parent-child relationship has nothing to do with this. He has this attitude because he's been (safely) employed in one institution all his life. I know people who make very good money (more than him, but hey, they live in Germany) as freelancers in a prolific field (such as marketing or IT). Kind of off-topic, but a ILI friend has given up on his stable job in a company in order to build up his own firm and lead a more independent life as an entrepreneur.
Me too (meaning I know people who make more money than me working indipendently) - but I wouldn't exactly call them "freelancers" but rather "professionals" or "entrepreneurs". Not that important of a point tho.Quote:
Originally Posted by Agni
I feel like we could butt heads about ffing anything. Who pays. Who's the one usually driving. Texting vs. phone calls. Should we go there or to that other place? There usually wasn't conflict for me per se, and my dual and I were pretty flexible with each other on most things. But a little issue could kind of explode if there were a lot of pent up feelings. As for day-to-day living as parents, I think that the idea is that as time goes on, you have fights but each time you make up you understand yourself and your dual better. The link becomes stronger, and fights are less likely to really rock the relationship. By the time you're committed enough to get married, your fights might not be as big of a deal.
The content of interactions doesn't really matter to intertype relations -- the psychological reasons behind specific conflicts and interactions are more important.
Te/Fi quadra relationships in general are very rooted in mutual constructive criticism/helping each other be better people. In the case of LIE/ESI, ESIs have a very good idea of what makes them comfortable and what they expect from other people (:Si: instinct + :Fi: base), and they have fairly high standards of the people that surround them. So, they expect people who associate with them to have certain attitudes or standards of behavior. LIEs on the other hand are quite intellectual and prone to critiquing ideas and methods of doing things that aren't optimal.
It's weird seeing things here I typed about an ex.
Necessary ingredient I'd say. "Fight" in public so u can get it out of your system. I been slapping him around. He's not sure how to take it; responds with playful "threatening" banter. I just break up with him when he acts too flaky and he realizes I need maintenance. Will keep u updated.Quote:
Originally Posted by consentingadult
:confused2:Quote:
Originally Posted by carrina
this must be a song about ESI - LIE duality ;) i saw Florence Welch is typed as ESIQuote:
Originally Posted by carrina
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SmxVCM39j4
Based on that video, I'd keep her around. She just needs to settle down a bit, though. She needs to have someone explain to her why breaking plates is not efficient.Quote:
Originally Posted by yeves
why in ISFj-ENTj duality breaking plates is inefficient and what will you suggest she do instead?Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
Se is not the most expert tool for expressing how a girl feels
Breaking plates means you have to go out and buy more of them, which is not as efficient as simply not breaking them and using the ones you have.Quote:
Originally Posted by yeves
I would suggest instead that she get a drink and sit down on the bed and we can discuss what is bothering her. That way, we can resolve her concerns and give each other demonstrable evidence of our commitment to work things out.
The ESI is always in doubt and always fears that the relationship is going to fail. She thinks that the LIE will either act irresponsibly, or will spend too much, or will get involved with the wrong people, or will look at other women (all of which we do), and she has few defenses against this, other than to get the LIE's attention, because the LIE cannot not listen to her and has an extremely hard time refusing her requests (the only sure way is to not listen to them, hence the plates to get his attention if all else fails), and the LIE will believe most of what she says, except the crazy and rationally unfounded parts. The LIE must understand what her fears are, and address them one by one, either by complete explanations or by promises, and by this means remove her fears. They can then both see that they are working together toward a goal, and can then make up. A bed is a good place to do that.
It may look like fighting, but it is really a means of simply getting each other's attention so that any differences or concerns can be resolved.
Let's look at the lyrics that the ESI says:
You hit me once (you (the LIE) started this by doing x, which I don't like)
I hit you back
You gave a kick
I gave a slap
You smashed a plate over my head (we argued)
Then I set fire to our bed (and it finally got to the point where sex was in question)
My black eye casts no shadow (I am not hurt by your fighting - LIE's can be fierce fighters, but ESI's are not intimidated)
Your red eye sees no blame (you do not blame me for my feelings - LIE's instead panic when ESI's are upset, and turn their efforts toward fixing the problem)
Your slaps don't stick
Your kicks don't hit (we can't hurt each other)
So we remain the same (and here is proof we are Duals)
Blood sticks
Sweat drips (after all this effort and conflict....)
Break the lock if it don't fit (resolve the problem any way you can, but resolve it)
A kick to the teeth is good for some (some people fight merely to fight)
A kiss with a fist is better than none (we fight because if we didn't constantly reaffirm our strong commitment, our love would fall apart and we'd have nothing)
thank you for this intensive explanation :) from your post could it be said that this dual pair doesn't need to fight if the LIE makes certain to address ESI's concerns and that conflict happens if the LIE is too careless and indifferent to the distress signals? do the ESIs do things that aggravate the LIEs on their turn?Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
That is probably correct, they don't need to fight, I guess. I may not be the best person to answer this question. I only know two ESI's presently irl (although I've known them both for several years and have interacted with them on a weekly basis) and I once slept with a third, but from what I have read, FDG is married to one and has had several as girlfriends, so he probably has more cumulative experience with them than I do. But I can tell you what I think, based on my own experience, fwiw.Quote:
Originally Posted by yeves
For the most part, spending time with an ESI makes me feel more like a complete human being. Happier, more confident and cheerful, less tense and aggressive. But mostly, happier. They don't have to actually do anything to make me feel this way. They just have to be exactly who they are, and I get happier. In turn, one has told me that she misses me when I'm gone, once said "can this be real life?" (which I took to mean that she is dualizing and is happy, too), and the other is also pretty happy. She will occasionally give me a look that would melt ice cubes at 50 paces, but quickly hides it. I should point out that both of these relationships are platonic, although I'm pretty sure that all three of us have considered changing that.
That is the good part.
The bad part is, they will always doubt, and I will always explore risky possibilities. These things are at once our strengths and weaknesses. My exploration acquires both money and contacts, and loses both money and contacts. Their fears and doubts cause them to not take the initiative and to miss opportunities, but it puts the brakes on my excesses and it conserves our resources. Working on projects together, I will spend without caring about the amounts, but they don't spend unless they have to, and sometimes don't spend enough, and always put any excess away for later. This often results in their spending much more in the long run, both in time and resources, because they didn't spend enough the first time, and in hoarding.
The only time we've had what could be called fights, but which were really just hurt feelings or misunderstandings (at least, that's how I saw it - although now that I think about it, everyone around us was either sitting very still or was moving away. For the ESI's, I think they are probably still thinking about it - they don't forget), were when I slightly criticized one of the ESI's relatives (I'm not doing that again!) and when I was being stubborn about a design decision that the other ESI knew she had made correctly and would not change. She won, I was pretty frustrated, but in the end I saw that she was right.
As for being indifferent to their distress signals, they look distressed most of the time. It is hard for me to tell when they are upset. I think they internalize problems, and the first I know about it is when they say something that is just like a punch to the face, but is really probably just a continuation of their thoughts going back for days. It is easy to see why a LIE's natural reaction is to head toward a fight. Closing the distance immediately is the only way to stop them from doubting you. Before you think about it, before you consider alternate possibilities or all the consequences, you have to focus fully on them and head straight toward the problem. And fix it.
One of the ESI's recently left her job after four years, and she and her manager had words, AFAIK because the manager thought two months notice was not enough. The ESI told me she was scared to go back there to visit her friends, who are still there. Normally, I am always thinking of many things at once, and almost never drop down to less than three things in my head at a time. But when she said "scared", a very strange thing happened to me. Absolutely everything dropped off the table, and I focused completely on her.
ESI's need to believe that your first reaction is going to be to take care of them (but in a completely hands-off way. It is very hard to describe. They don't want your help; they want your support.) And since an LIE's attention will normally drift off to future ventures, I think ESI's have been designed to know exactly how to get that attention focused back down to where they need it.
I don't know what irritates ESI's about LIE's. You'll have to ask them. But one thing that drives me crazy is that they will come to an incorrect conclusion and it is almost impossible to change their minds about it, no matter how obviously false it is. You have to be persistent and rational and hope for the best, and assume that you're not going to win every battle.
There are no conflicts between duals from types point of view.
My company was recently contracted by a large automotive supplier to design and build a prototype camera for road sensing. We meet every Monday morning to hash out the design details and make sure that everyone gets what they want. Our team is LIE, LIE, SLI, LSE, and their team is LII, ESI, SLE, ??? and ???, but it is basically an LIE (me) talking to an ESI (them).
Last week, I presented our proposed design, which uses a high-resolution detector and costs over $5k in units 1-100. Their ESI said that was nice, but brushed aside our proposal, saying they wanted something cheaper and then counter-proposed a single diode detector, saying that they didn’t want to spend money redesigning a complex system into a simple system when it goes on a car. Their target price for this is $20/car.
I was concerned that making the part so simple, while reducing the cost and the development time, would make it not perform properly in real-world conditions, and I said so. The ESI was unmoved and distributed minutes and charts with his single-diode design to his higher-ups.
During the week, I thought about this disaster and our backup strategy. I could not move the ESI from his position by force of personality. His Se is too strong, and I’ve never been opposed by an ESI before; previously, they were always on my team. He was in the superior position in the sense that he was the buyer and had exclusive access to his bosses. I began to despair that the project was not going to meet what I saw as their real goals because the ESI was only seeing problems and was simplifying and cheapening the product without regard to its future performance. And I do not like to be involved in failed projects.
In this week’s meeting, I started the conversation by asking the ESI what his goals were, and listened intently as he reiterated cost and development time. I then talked about costs falling with mass production, and one of his own guys said that development time would be the same for either design. I then spoke about the possible road scenarios where a single-diode solution would fail the user (to let the ESI know that I understood his concerns about cost and failure) and then told a story about how I once had to take personal responsibility and explain to a room full of aerospace suits why our product failed, which by inference scared the hell out of their LII project manager, and then I suggested that we build the more expensive design and we can dumb it down as we get experience in the real world as to what the design really needs to look like in order to work.
Much to my astonishment, the ESI agreed with me, and we immediately made plans to work together on a preliminary needs document.
I’m not entirely sure what made the ESI change his mind, other than the fact that I stayed 100% focused on his concerns and listened to him during our disagreements. He went from “No. Just No” to “Let’s work on this together” in a heartbeat. Strange as hell.
Florence Welsch has clearly 1 D Te. That plate crushing efficiency is just deplorable.
Easy solution: gravity.
in weak regions of the types.
unlike with conflictors, mostly this happens in valued regions of the both so annoys _lesser_. it's more alike to treat a good child which will accept what you think. it's conflict anyway - as you see problems to fix and not always your opinion will be accepted from the start
in case of base Fi - they become stubborn to your opinions when have negative emotions to you in general or in that situation. in other case they may behave as brainless conformists or at least to look so
as for your case - look at EIEs, not LIEs
https://youtu.be/rlhrdXoQ_k4
Goes back to Strativeskaya's masterwork on this duality dyad. LIE going off the rails and betraying the 'team' or the dyad, at the very least.
A pitch perfect example of LIE ESI duality gone wrong above. Yes, it's a video-game but I haven't seen any other digestible example that was more accurate.
And ESIs can do no wrong, uh?Quote:
Originally Posted by PussyInASarcophagus
Guy in the video is some ILI, clear activityQuote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
lol In reality, we know that they most certainly can and do. How about when that unshakable Fi conviction about a particular feeling/belief is rooted in untruth? And they take (excessive) action based on feelings (which aren't facts), the (limited) sensory data before them, strung together by a shaky hunch they're convinced is the underlying truth (when their intuition is not a strength for them), and with little to no care about whether any conclusions based on the aforementioned make objective sense. :indifferent2:Quote:
Originally Posted by FDG
LIEs, along with most other intuitives, are prone to "scatter brained" fuck ups that may result in several missed phone calls, a misplaced or lost phone, a missed date/birthday/engagement, etc... with willful, intentional deception playing no active part and yet a ESI may be utterly convinced that LIE is cheating and doing a poor job of covering their tracks. lol As if LIEs are not excellent strategists capable of all sorts of capers and covert operations when and if we choose to be. But try to convince the ESI that you aren't lying. Even if they give in and say that they believe you, they really don't because whatever evidence they can literally see along with their experiences, matter the most. They can most definitely fuck up a relationship all by themselves.
He doesn’t VI exactly like any of the ILI’s that I know, but I can’t think of a better type for him.Quote:
Originally Posted by FDG
And yes, I agree. Activity.
ESIs seem to want space (autonomy) but also to never feel alone, and can sometimes be very self-righteous and selfish; as a punishment, they'll sometimes withhold all displays of affection. LIEs seem to like engaging the field knowing that there's a solid base at home, and to often challenge and control with ruthless disregard; as a punishment, they'll sometimes invade someone's space and metaphorically show who's boss. In the beginning, LIEs seem to have a fascination with self-contained personalities and the challenge of conquering them - but this can wear rather thin after a number of years of being together. ESIs often admire people who can take control - so long as it's not them being controlled. Most conflict between these two seems to have elements of the preceding characteristics in various proportions - most minor and easily forgotten. Note that duals usually have the insight to maximise the hurt to their partners should something really break down such as infidelity.......:content:
a.k.a I/O
This is unbelievably accurate. Thank u loveQuote:
Originally Posted by Alonzo
Yes, both LIEs and ESIs are matched in their complete stubbornness. And for ESIs giving them freedom is at the core of their being, including financial freedom. The ESI-Se I dated was of the opinion that money should be shared freely amongst lovers, even so early in the relationship. He worked as a waiter, which didn't earn too much. He aspired to become a model, but that is a costly endeavour before it starts paying out. He repeatedly insisted on borrowing money from me and ignored my explanations that I'm a student and cannot easily miss money as of now. I felt pressured by him and as a consequence started digging my heels in. Everytime that he brought up the money topic, I repeated my explanation that I cannot spontaneously lend him a hundred bucks. This frustrated him, as he felt like I treated him as a child, instead of an equal. I genuinely liked him, it saddens me that this broke us apart.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebelondeck
At a later financial request I offered reserving the hotel room for him, instead of sending the money. If he'd provide me the name of the hotel, I would book the place. Instead he wanted me to send him the money, so he could book it himself. He wanted me to trust him, but the fact that he asked to borrow money so often for different things didn't show any financial sensibility from him. I have been raised in the Netherlands, which has strict morals regarding money, whereas he was French Canadian. I would have been happy to support him financially, but by purchasing that which he needs, instead of giving him a blank cheque.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Armitage
I hated it when my LSI ex-GF would ask me for money. I made a lot more than she did, but she seemed to work less as I became her supply, so this was some kind of interaction that she was trying to set up, almost as theater.
I didn't mind giving her money because she wasn't very expensive (OK, now think about that. That's not a thought I've ever had with an ESI.), but rather it was the WAY she asked for money.
I believe that when a couple is out, they should each be able to spend freely as they wish. Since the LSI almost never had money, if she wanted something, I paid for it, which I didn't have a problem with. If I knew we were going shopping, I'd just give her enough money to cover it before we went out. But she seemed to prefer to wait until we were somewhere in public, then she'd find some orchid or something and say to me, "Will you buy me that?"
God, I hated that. I'm not your dad. If you want it, just buy it yourself. If you don't have money, then ask for cash before we're in front of some salesperson.
@Armitage, I don't think this is type-related, although I don't have a lot of experience with types and money. The LSI was the only GF who did that, although I did have one ESI GF who paid for exactly nothing. I don't know how she managed that without it bothering me at the time, but she did.
All the other ESIs and other types I've dated paid for what they bought, unless I specifically invited them out to eat. Even the ESI who was flat broke paid her way.
So your ESI was probably trying to involve you in some story that he wanted to live but which you didn't. Or maybe it was to hook you into a relationship with him by him owing you money, so you'd not forget to call.
Either way, you need to use a four-letter word when referring to him: Next!
It sounds like the LSI preferred the freedom of deciding what she wanted on the spot, instead of having to plan ahead to ask you for enough money in advance? Impulse buying as the ultimate form of financial freedom.
I was actually very willing to call him, until he started asking me for money. So it wasn't the latter. The former might have motivated him, though, as he tried to eat his cake and have it at the same time too. That sure backfired on him, as now he has neither. It's a peculiar way of thinking, to risk all for a bit of money. Something he realized too late, given his sad look when I broke up with him.
I need someone more mature, pity he wasn't, but I cannot do anything about that. I have to move on, indeed. C'est la vie.
No, @Armitage. She wasn't impulsive or indecisive. Instead, it was an Se thing. "Hah! I know you hate it when I ask you to buy me things. So buy this for me, right now." It was an Introverted Aggressor move on an Extroverted Victim, and I've never seen this in any of the ESIs that I've dated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Armitage
She also asked me to carry her purse on several occasions. At first, I thought she just needed an extra hand, but then she did it again and each time, she went out of her way to say later that she was sorry that she made me carry her purse. Lol. Right.
You see some pretty weird things on dates, but again, I think that was a Beta Aggressor move, because I haven't seen that at all from ESIs. I think that ESIs are just more fem-oriented than LSIs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Armitage
If I had been dating her it probably would have ended in a game of chicken, with her trying to make me buy stuff for her, while I would be trying to make her say "please" for it. I find it nonsensical how people derive their self-worth from making other people do trivial acts as a display of power. If I ever want to be pushed around, I would simply visit my ESTP mathematics uncle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
( He orders everyone in the family around. I'm the only one of my side of the family whom he actually makes conversation with, or more exactly debates with and I debate back. He seems to hold me in favourable regard, though, which might be part of the beneficiary-benefactor, I believe? )
I'm pretty sure that my guy was an ESI, however, given how intimacy was very important to him. Whereas the LSI I previously went on a date with and who looked for a long-term relationship focused almost solely on sex and superficiality. Additionally, before the ESI and I went dating, he asked me a battery of questions to test if I would really stay faithful to him. #Strong_Fi_Weak_Ne One of these questions was if I already came out of the closet to my family. #Family_values He had the tendency to take things personally and reprimand me for it, or even try to repay the perceived sleight with another. #Tit_for_Tat While a LSI would not have taken offence to what I said and would have simply shrugged it off. Also, he wasn't a star at economics, because when he needed to stay in a hotel for the weekend, he wanted us to book together for one long stay, so we could get the discount. But I would only arrive on Wednesday, which meant that being eligble for the discount would cost us more instead of less. #Weak_Te I know that there is generally a lot of discussion about mistyping people, but these are some of the reasons why I strongly think that he was ESI, instead of LSI or any other Beta.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
In hindsight, I think that the ESI insisted on borrowing money from me, because we were a team as a couple. He even asked me: "If it was you who needed money, would I then neither be allowed to help you out?" And he did need the money to pursue his dream of becoming a model in Paris, as living there is very expensive.
@Armitage, I didn't doubt your typing of him. I didn't mean to give that impression, either.
He actually does sound like an ESI from all of your descriptions.
To answer the question from my experience, thus far I've had no major fights over things with my ESI girlfriend. Mostly just little things that don't really matter. For example, we share a language class together, and I'll sometimes be doing something else like drawing diagrams or something else like that, and she'll tell me very bluntly to do my work. I'll resist her the first couple of times she tells me to start working, and then at the last 15-20 minutes of class, I'm able to get the assignment done. She thinks it's kind of crazy how I can push things off at the last minute and still get shit done.
This ESI I attempted a dualization with, complained that I was a "nerd with no life" and demanded that I should get some "dignity". Basically, she attacked my PoLR and my DS. But before this jab happened, I basically had told her that "she was a wacko, who was emotionally fried, and would be miserable all the rest of her life". So you can see how this "conflict" might go about. Pretty sure we actually just wanted to help each other in reality.
Are you sure she told you that your a "nerd with no life" in seriousness, or is it possible she was teasing you?Quote:
Originally Posted by lavos
My ESI girlfriend calls me a dork and an asshole all the time, and it's basically always just her teasing me for fun.
You're right. I suspect she was teasing me. But she was also angry at me for a few reasons so she probably wanted to get back at me too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fake Intellectual
Usually happens when LIE runs into money problems.
Probably the biggest point of conflict in the LIE in such a relationship is perhaps how ESIs treat us (especially in public). They are very "bitchy" types, which can create problems and frustrations in the LIE.
LIEs are known for handling ESI's constant emotional battering and criticisms fairly well. We tend to deal with the ESIs criticisms using humor to soothe tensions, however, that absolutely DOES NOT mean we like being criticized. We may be able to deal with it well externally, but internally, those kind of criticisms can really hurt, and get it can get to a point of being unhealthy. They especially do this around others, because they have their guard up around everyone (except for the LIE when they're alone). LIEs do not always want that; we do not want to have to deal with ESIs when they put up their emotional shield anytime they're in public. It's frustrating, and even somewhat hurts us.