My EXE daughter what type is she?

I've gone back and forth between ESE and EIE for her and I can't decide.

She's a very good writer, excellent student. One of those kids who's always in the 99th percentile of everything, if not off the charts. I've never helped her with homework, not a day in her life. She's not that great in sports although she does well with swimming. She looks just like me (like I did when I was her age). She's musical and can act but not as good as her IEI sister (who is very obviously Fe creative). She's easy going BUT she occasionally lashes out at her brother and slices him meanly with her words. this is rare, but does happen when he gets on her nerves.

She's quiet. Quieter than her sister in classes. They've had the same teachers (they're twins) and when the teachers compare them, this one holds back. So in fact although I do consider her EXE, she's quiet in public. The IEI is opposite, she's quieter at home and comes out of her shell in certain situations.

ANYway, this EXE is good with directions, she pays attention. Actually she pays attention to everything and I joke that I never want her to move out of the house because she keeps me organized. She knows our schedule like the back of her hand without needing to write anything down. She has a nearly photographic memory. She's very chatty at home. I could buy either type for her.

On the one hand, she seems beta. She gets along well with her sister, and their SLE friend. As a matter of fact, sometimes she seems to appreciate the SLE more than her sister. Neither daughter is afraid of dark subjects like death or intensity. Although the IEI gets emotional and things MOVE her, whereas the EXE has a VERY steady emotionalism. She's extremely even-keeled. I like that about her. I feel like no matter what happens, she can handle anything that comes her way. Truth is, I'm very proud of this girl. But it's not because I did much. I just love her, and she is who she is. But I kind of look at her in awe. And when people say that she reminds them of me, I take it as a huge compliment. But I know that she's so much better than me. (I was horribly gawky and self-conscious at her age)

Anyway, does she sound ESE or EIE? I showed Maritsa photos once and she said she VIs EIE. I can see that. But she's just so sensing too. I could see her being a food critic or write for a magazine about cooking and/or travel. She definitely feels "lighter" emotionally than the IEI, in some ways. Like she lives more on the surface.

She's up at the break of dawn, every single day of her life, from the time she was a newborn. She read Lord of the Rings when she was 9 or 10. She jumped off a cliff into the water four times when neither her brother or sister would do it (and they were both trying to talk her out of it). haha

She's one of the best things that ever happened to me. Oh the others too. How could I possibly say one over the other. But... there's just something about her.

Functions develop at certain ages; she could be more sensing now and then settle into Intuition later.

Would your daughter mind you posting some photos here of her for V.I.?

This is quite the love letter. :) /unhelpful

the thread title kinda makes it sound like you disowned her. My EXE daughter... :p

Have you considered an extroverted logical type? Maybe SLE?

What are the relations like with her? What sort of things do you guys feel like you run into conflict/problems with?

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Originally Posted by redbaron

She's easy going BUT she occasionally lashes out at her brother and slices him meanly with her words. this is rare, but does happen when he gets on her nerves.

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I think overall ESE's are more likely to lash out than EIE's, due to their Se demonstrative. However, you also said "slices him meanly with words" and that seems more EIE. ESEs just kinda blow up, and they are more confrontational. But EIEs (and IEIs) have a more quiet, sneaky viciousness.

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She's quiet. Quieter than her sister in classes. They've had the same teachers (they're twins) and when the teachers compare them, this one holds back. So in fact although I do consider her EXE, she's quiet in public. The IEI is opposite, she's quieter at home and comes out of her shell in certain situations.

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Yeah, my mom is EIE-Ni and was really quiet until she was about 20, when she just decided she wouldn't be anymore.
I also work with 2 EIE-Fe's, they are both excellent with customers. One has always been really vivacious and extraverted, but the other was really shy until a few years ago when she asked the first for advice on opening up and being more talkative with customers. Though the second one does have a really strange past (like, grew up on a farm with 6 houses and a church, isolated from the world, and doesn't know who Elvis is)

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ANYway, this EXE is good with directions, she pays attention. Actually she pays attention to everything and I joke that I never want her to move out of the house because she keeps me organized. She knows our schedule like the back of her hand without needing to write anything down. She has a nearly photographic memory. She's very chatty at home. I could buy either type for her.

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This is kinda ambiguous, really could go either way, mostly just seems like an EJ, especially Fe base.

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On the one hand, she seems beta. She gets along well with her sister, and their SLE friend. As a matter of fact, sometimes she seems to appreciate the SLE more than her sister. Neither daughter is afraid of dark subjects like death or intensity. Although the IEI gets emotional and things MOVE her, whereas the EXE has a VERY steady emotionalism. She's extremely even-keeled. I like that about her. I feel like no matter what happens, she can handle anything that comes her way.

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This part especially screams EIE. ESEs like when things are light and cheery, and avoid deep subjects.
Going back to talking about my work.. My boss is ESE, and another coworker is SEI. One time the three of us had lunch in the break room, and there was tons of Fe, all over the place. After a while, the SEI had to go back to work, and it was just the two of us. I guess at the time I didn't think about socionics types, and I started talking about dream meanings. She just ...shut down. I then remembered socionics and kind of backed out of that subject. Now when I have to interact with her, I either sort of take on the SEI coworker's humor style, or I act sort of innocent and childlike (I think her daughter is also IEI).
In comparison, the used-to-be-shy EIE and I frequently talk about dreams, psychology, culture, etc. and she has never had a negative reaction to it.

Also IME, both Fe bases seem good at handling whatever curve balls life throws at them. And even if they can't, they won't let it show.

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Anyway, does she sound ESE or EIE?

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You can probably tell by now, but I say EIE (though pictures for VI would certainly help)

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But she's just so sensing too. I could see her being a food critic or write for a magazine about cooking and/or travel. She definitely feels "lighter" emotionally than the IEI, in some ways. Like she lives more on the surface.

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It's also been my experience that IEIs are just.. One of the more intense types. EIEs are definitely lighter and live more on the surface than IEIs (I mean, Ni base descriptions sound like the opposite of "living on the surface" lol..)

Idk, I think a lot, a LOT of people here have wrong ideas about Se and Si. And it's really bad with the XIE Si PoLR, Se HA descriptions. Both EIEs I work with could also probably do those things really well.




And it doesn't really relate to her type, but it put a smile on my face to read your description of her. Very sweet. She sounds like she will do very well when she gets older :) (although she obviously is doing well now lol)

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Originally Posted by Maritsa Darmandzhyan

What are the relations like with her? What sort of things do you guys feel like you run into conflict/problems with?

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We have almost zero problems. I never conflict with this one. The only issue I sometimes run into with her, is fighting with her brother. And usually whatever she says to him is exactly what I would say in her shoes. LOL And he usually deserves what she dishes out. But still.

The things that come out of her mouth are often the very things that I was about to say. And she's told me that sometimes when I say things, she was thinking it too.

I have considered her being logical. But I don't think she is. I remember when she was a baby she had this really intelligent look on her face all the time. Her sister (the IEI) would literally LIGHT UP like a light bulb when I or her dad would walk by. Smiles and giggles, etc. But this one always seemed like she was thinking. She knew her nose, mouth, eyes, head, by the time she was 9 months old (I could ask her to point to them and she could do it). I could give her commands like "go get your shiny shoes!" when she was about a year old and she'd go into her bedroom and bring whatever I had asked. (like a retriever, lol) Here's an example that might illustrate IEI vs. EIE (if that's her type):

I was in the hospital after having had my son. The girls were 22 months old. My parents brought them into my room to meet their new baby brother. The IEI came to the bed wanting to hold the baby. The EXE immediately circumnavigated the room, went to all the windows to look out, wanted to explore, curious about everything else, didn't come over to the baby until I asked her to, and even then didn't seem super interested (a foreshadowing of the way all of their relationships have played out even to this day, haha). Introvert=center of the room, extravert= going to the perimeters, looking out? I dunno. Maybe coincidental.

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Originally Posted by redbaron

We have almost zero problems. I never conflict with this one. The only issue I sometimes run into with her, is fighting with her brother. And usually whatever she says to him is exactly what I would say in her shoes. LOL And he usually deserves what she dishes out. But still.

The things that come out of her mouth are often the very things that I was about to say. And she's told me that sometimes when I say things, she was thinking it too.

I have considered her being logical. But I don't think she is. I remember when she was a baby she had this really intelligent look on her face all the time. Her sister (the IEI) would literally LIGHT UP like a light bulb when I or her dad would walk by. Smiles and giggles, etc. But this one always seemed like she was thinking. She knew her nose, mouth, eyes, head, by the time she was 9 months old (I could ask her to point to them and she could do it). I could give her commands like "go get your shiny shoes!" when she was about a year old and she'd go into her bedroom and bring whatever I had asked. (like a retriever, lol) Here's an example that might illustrate IEI vs. EIE (if that's her type):

I was in the hospital after having had my son. The girls were 22 months old. My parents brought them into my room to meet their new baby brother. The IEI came to the bed wanting to hold the baby. The EXE immediately circumnavigated the room, went to all the windows to look out, wanted to explore, curious about everything else, didn't come over to the baby until I asked her to, and even then didn't seem super interested (a foreshadowing of the way all of their relationships have played out even to this day, haha). Introvert=center of the room, extravert= going to the perimeters, looking out? I dunno. Maybe coincidental.

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I smell conflict relations between her and her brother.

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Originally Posted by Maritsa Darmandzhyan

I smell conflict relations between her and her brother.

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yeah, could be. I've been thinking he's SLI. :P But on the other hand, who knows. He and the IEI get along pretty well. She is VERY kind to him, and understanding. But IEI gets along with everyone, right? lol

Hmm, interesting.

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Originally Posted by octo

I was thinking this too - how dead set are you on the Fe-leading? It sounds like you admire her in an almost asymmetrical way. From the description and your attitude towards her I could perhaps see LIE/SLE/ILE.

I supervise my ESE mother and she seems to think I'm some sort of super pragmatic genius when I feel anything but :lol: She thinks I'm completely sorted in life, I'm somehow crazy determined and can do anything I set my mind to, "like your (LII) father", while she seems to see my SEI sister as underachieving, lazy and "lost", even though she has much better career prospects and is doing really well...

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yeah I don't supervise this girl. She supervises me. No, not really. But she's really really smart, esp for her age (like you, Octo! :)) and I do admire her. Whereas with the IEI, I'm proud of her (and she's smart too! they have identical grades) but I see her faults and recognize them as being my faults. I don't see her as SLE though. ILE? I don't know. No, I don't see the Ne in her. She's not like my IEE mother who's always tossing out ideas. I don't think she's Se leading or Se-seeking either. not in the same way that my IEI daughter and I are.

LXE?

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Originally Posted by Director Abbie

LXE?

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I don't think so because we get along SO super well and we think very much alike. Never ANY misunderstandings with her.

she's the one in the middle. the boy is SLI (I think) and the girl on the right is IEI. This is her typical smile. She always smiles the same way in photos (the middle one). I'll try to find one where she's not in "the pose".

Attachment 1286

this is actually more typical of the two of them. The IEI in the foreground making weird faces and the other one sort of in the background, tolerating it with a good sense of humor. (sorry it's overexposed. I post-processed it that way on purpose and then seem to have lost the original file)

Attachment 1287

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Originally Posted by redbaron

she's the one in the middle. the boy is SLI (I think) and the girl on the right is IEI. This is her typical smile. She always smiles the same way in photos (the middle one). I'll try to find one where she's not in "the pose".

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Oh the child in the middle; she's not an Extravert :p The other child is the one I typed EIE;

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Originally Posted by Maritsa Darmandzhyan

Oh the child in the middle; she's not an Extravert :p The other child is the one I typed EIE;

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:p Okay. So, given my description, what do you guess for the type of the girl in the middle?

What about ESI? Ths thought occured to me when I was reading the descriptions, then when I saw her picture she reminded me of an ex schoolmate who I think is ESI.

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Originally Posted by redbaron

:p Okay. So, given my description, what do you guess for the type of the girl in the middle?

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If she's an introverted Feeler, INFj or ENFj. I really don't think your older child is an N type; your younger daughter, the one on the right is definitely an EIE.

Does this daughter get along with your son, who I type ISTp? And, already the Fi should be fairly obvious, she will start to instruct others on how to be fair and kind in their relations by "teaching" them in the form of advice giving as to what the proper behaviors in certain situations are; for instance, if people don't share a radio and just hog it all for themselves, she will try to negotiate time and sharing for others as to promote a better relations. This comes from a moral rule/law about being fair to others.

They're both the same age (twins). oh goodness I don't know. Middle (in the photo) daughter does focus on fairness I guess. But they all do.

Beta daughter on right has MAJOR CLASHES with her LSE Dad. I'll say that much. The other two don't clash with him as much (but some). They will argue until they're blue in the face. He's never gotten as angry with anyone (well, besides me but I'd say overall that he gets MORE angry with her even, than with me).

What else. Son makes his own bed every morning despite me never telling him to do this or even showing him how (I know, bad mom, I just don't care if they make their beds or not). He values order and neatness although the rest of his room can be messy. But he likes his bed "just so". Also, one of his favorite Christmas gifts ever was a very very soft throw blanket I got him. He still sleeps with it.

But the girls? I don't know. I'm not convinced the one on the right is EIE. She has a lazy temperament. She doesn't seem Ej to me. She does have a perfectionist streak. And she's Se-seeking. She wants to be "the best" at everything she does. She gets VERY UPSET when she doesn't, for example, improve her swimming times consistently. Such that she cries (which is inappropriate at her age) at the meets. I had to sit her down and explain that she has to pull it together or quit swimming because crying isn't an acceptable response to a fine but less than perfect swim time. :P

What about LIE?

What about focusing on identifiable and actionable aspects of her life instead of this unimportant bullshit.

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Originally Posted by k0rpsy

What about focusing on identifiable and actionable aspects of her life instead of this unimportant bullshit.

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get out if you can't behave yourself.

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Originally Posted by Gilly

What about LIE?

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I do think she's ethical. She says a book isn't good unless it makes her cry. She values things based on how they make her feel, emotionally. She keeps talking about how getting her school schedule will make or break her year, depending on who else is in her classes. lol

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Originally Posted by redbaron

get out if you can't behave yourself.

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Once you've fooled yourself into thinking your child is a certain type the next step will be prescriptive measures designed to shape this individual according to more artificial expectations. Then you'll be worrying about strengthening the child's super-ego without doing so at the expense of her ego functions or turning the kid into a neurotic base-subtype. You'll begin voicing concerns about inter-quadra bullying at PTA meetings and asking teachers to tend to your child's valued functions, and eventually, unless you live in California where subscribing to mystification and bamboozlement is the norm, someone will alert Child Protective Services after becoming convinced that you belong to a cult and are adversely affecting your progeny with nonsense. Let the kid be a kid, not a type.

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Originally Posted by felafel

redbaron, if you don't mind me saying this...the problem with you describing interrelations is that we don't know that's how she thinks about them.

i had a post, which i deleted, but i said (and still think) she's sth delta/gamma.

i'm sorry to say this, but having seen estp suggested....well, she seems too responsible for that. if i thought estp i would not think 'oh yeah, responsibility' in one sentence. sorry...and enfj seem too antsy or sth ..

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I agree, she's not SLE. lol She's not at all antsy either.

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Originally Posted by k0rpsy

Once you've fooled yourself into thinking your child is a certain type the next step will be prescriptive measures designed to shape this individual according to more artificial expectations. Then you'll be worrying about strengthening the child's super-ego without doing so at the expense of her ego functions or turning the kid into a neurotic base-subtype. You'll begin voicing concerns about inter-quadra bullying at PTA meetings and asking teachers to tend to your child's valued functions, and eventually, unless you live in California where subscribing to mystification and bamboozlement is the norm, someone will alert Child Protective Services after becoming convinced that you belong to a cult and are adversely affecting your progeny with nonsense. Let the kid be a kid, not a type.

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wtf lol

Obviously redbaron isn't trying to force her kid into being ANY type or ANY type of person. She is letting her kid be a kid... the above statement is rediculous.
now if it were marista's kid on the other hand..............
BUT IT's not.

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Originally Posted by redbaron

wtf lol

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Hyperbole to make an overblown point, of course.

What do you hope to accomplish by labeling your child this type or that? Whether you leave the supposed type unspoken or not it will certainly have some effect on how you view and treat the kid. It's a matter of conjecture to say how significant this shift will be, but since this opinion (it would be an embarrassment to call it knowledge) will remain an active element in your cogitations once formed, it will operate to alter your perceptions and thoughts concerning your child. Since we have privileged access to no one's thoughts but our own I think socionics ought to remain a tool of self-discovery, otherwise it too frequently sets people up for unrealistic expectations of one another to act and interact according to a fixed and schematized script rather than the subtle and unquantifiable qualities of living beings participating in the actual world.

blackburry: Your post makes it too easy to deride both message and messenger. Cheers.

I dunno, I made a thread on the forum some time ago for typing my son, who is now nine, and I think it was helpful. Pinning a possible type on him didn't change how I view him, in the sense that the actual relationship and parent-child bond I have with him are stronger than a perception or expectation of a type, and when I am with him I am really absorbed in just enjoying his company and in parenting him, and that hasn't changed (and won't). Getting a few solid suggestions re his type instead made me think a bit more objectively about him.

Most helpful was to note that some of his weaknesses--which I already was well aware of--could be seen as polr-related. That was/is reassuring, because we live in a culture where Mom is to blame for much that isn't absolutelyfuckingperfect, and my son's father in particular has taken to (1) branding the boy as defective and (2) blaming me for it (ludicrous on both counts), and socionics stuff is just another way of saying, um, we all have our strengths and weaknesses and have to work with them and maybe sometimes no one is to blame.

So I think considering my child's possible socionics type made me somewhat less neurotic about him and about my parenting and gave me one small tool (among many other, more important ones) to withstand the nastiness and brainwashing bullshit.

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Originally Posted by redbaron

On the one hand, she seems beta. She gets along well with her sister, and their SLE friend. As a matter of fact, sometimes she seems to appreciate the SLE more than her sister. Neither daughter is afraid of dark subjects like death or intensity.

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Ok, I missed this so yeah not EII for sure.

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Originally Posted by redbaron

I was in the hospital after having had my son. The girls were 22 months old. My parents brought them into my room to meet their new baby brother. The IEI came to the bed wanting to hold the baby. The EXE immediately circumnavigated the room, went to all the windows to look out, wanted to explore, curious about everything else, didn't come over to the baby until I asked her to, and even then didn't seem super interested (a foreshadowing of the way all of their relationships have played out even to this day, haha). Introvert=center of the room, extravert= going to the perimeters, looking out? I dunno. Maybe coincidental.

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Not necessarily; one can not differentiate the object that will strike the curiosity of either type; if that were true and possible, I would just ask a person "when you walk into a room what do you notice first" and have their type in 15 seconds :p

Regarding a parent typing a child:

Before I had delved into the socionics theoretical stuff, I had been dealing with a child who had some obvious difficulties going on with her thinking processes. I was introduced to socionics via a different reason, but as I looked into the theory's basic principles of information metabolism (rather than 'personality'), I felt strongly that something in it might be able to help me understand better what was going on inside her mind...that might give me a clue of how I could help her. Figuring out that SeFi and it's order of elements helped a LOT. Enough to give me a few clues leading towards pinpointing some of the issues she,s been dealing with since birth. It gave me a way of guiding my observations and experiments, to get a clearer picture of what might be working for her, and what,s obviously not. Sort of like a fuzzy window into her mind.

Her problems weren,t related to any socionics type...it turns out to have been related to one (or combo) of medications I had been on around the time of her conception. But I only figured that out through a complex chain of studies and observations...of which socionics played a small part in.

However, we do still have communication issues which socionics helps to explain. Such as conflict with my insessent mentioning of different ideas and ways of looking at something which aggravates her underlying condition...sending her into a mentally chaotic stress shutdown/blowup. So yes, I do work at trying to keep my mouth shut when those ideas pop into my mind.

But I don't think of her as a 'type'. She is my daughter who is her own developing person, and the functions merely help me try to understand what might be underlying some of our conflicts. I sure as hell don,t consider the functions to be prescriptive. And even though I might turn to viewing our interactions via functions, it's actually rare that I do so...as in rare that I look at us through socionics goggles. (as in...maybe once ever 3-4 months?? If even that...except for reminding myself to not overwhelm her with my ideas/thoughts of the moment...but even then the lens isn't socionics...it's the trouble her brain has in processing/linking auditory information.)

Humans categorize things...it comes natural to them. Parents (usually) recognize qualities of their children such as "she's a bookworm", "he's a natural at music creation", "she plays aggressively in sports", "he's kind of on the sensitive side", etc. What do parents gain by describing their children in this way? It's a shorthand way of describing their children to other people...or to themselves. Does it effect how a parent raises/views their kids? Quite likely...in that they might buy more books for the bookworm, software/hardware for the computer geek, sign the kid up for sports teams, be more careful of how they phrase things around the sensitive child...etc. Parents may even do something drastic like try to encourage the children to expand their experiences. "'Aww, mom...do I have to??'..... 'At least try it a couple of times, if you don't like it, then we'll Try something else.'" . . . . Such evil parents!!! :muaha:

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Originally Posted by k0rpsy

Hyperbole to make an overblown point, of course.

What do you hope to accomplish by labeling your child this type or that? Whether you leave the supposed type unspoken or not it will certainly have some effect on how you view and treat the kid. It's a matter of conjecture to say how significant this shift will be, but since this opinion (it would be an embarrassment to call it knowledge) will remain an active element in your cogitations once formed, it will operate to alter your perceptions and thoughts concerning your child. Since we have privileged access to no one's thoughts but our own I think socionics ought to remain a tool of self-discovery, otherwise it too frequently sets people up for unrealistic expectations of one another to act and interact according to a fixed and schematized script rather than the subtle and unquantifiable qualities of living beings participating in the actual world.

blackburry: Your post makes it too easy to deride both message and messenger. Cheers.

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wow you are incredibly annoying.
Confimed post's ties it all together in why some people think it's absolutely fine and neutral to do.

LIE could make sense

@k0rpsy
First of all, I don't know how seriously will Redbaron be about socionics if and when her daughter's type is confirmed.

If she is serious about primarily viewing people through their type, like an unleashed maritsa, that is the flaw of her action.

If, however, she, like the most of this forum, understands the immense flaws of socionics when it comes to real interaction between people, she is going to do just fine and probably enjoys being interested in her children in a variety of ways, where most of them don't have anything to do with socionics.

What are you trying to do here, k0rpsy?

a little reality check never hurt anyone.

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Originally Posted by k0rpsy

Hyperbole to make an overblown point, of course.

What do you hope to accomplish by labeling your child this type or that? Whether you leave the supposed type unspoken or not it will certainly have some effect on how you view and treat the kid. It's a matter of conjecture to say how significant this shift will be, but since this opinion (it would be an embarrassment to call it knowledge) will remain an active element in your cogitations once formed, it will operate to alter your perceptions and thoughts concerning your child. Since we have privileged access to no one's thoughts but our own I think socionics ought to remain a tool of self-discovery, otherwise it too frequently sets people up for unrealistic expectations of one another to act and interact according to a fixed and schematized script rather than the subtle and unquantifiable qualities of living beings participating in the actual world.

blackburry: Your post makes it too easy to deride both message and messenger. Cheers.

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There is no type my children could be that would cause me to love them less. This post of yours is basically saying "if you're a parent, you shouldn't even know about socionics because it will inevitably cause you to treat your children differently, even if it's unconscious." Kinda silly.

I'm so proud of them, I honestly don't care what type they are. I just find people interesting, especially these little people I live with! :D

And after all of this, I still don't know what type she is. It's more of a mystery than before. I'll probably think about it again in like a year. lol I really don't spend a lot of time applying socionics to my children or really to anyone else. But we're on this forum (ostensibly) because we think it's interesting and possibly worthwhile, in the end.

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Originally Posted by The Ineffable

What about ESI? Ths thought occured to me when I was reading the descriptions, then when I saw her picture she reminded me of an ex schoolmate who I think is ESI.

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Click. Yes. She looks like my sister, whom I had trouble typing because she is thoroughly Ni activated by being diehard reader from childhood.

Well I'm confused about her type, but not confused about how to parent her! LOL I think it's you guys who are taking socionics a bit too seriously here. If you don't have kids of your own, you probably shouldn't be jumping to conclusions about how people with kids are using or not using this information.

And by the way, I appreciated the other moms in this thread and their reflections on figuring out the types of their kids. Thanks.:)

ESI? Maybe! I'll think about that one!

If she is not realistic, she will realize this in time as the reality is bound to manifest somehow that doesn't fit in to the model.
She will go to another set of false beliefs or gain better understanding. The latter is bound to happen by it's own weight, provided she will continue interaction with her children and she will be sensible. In my opinion, both of those requirements are likely to be fulfilled.

I have hard time imagining that pointing out this will have any effect because you can't give her any new information. The imperfection of socionics is voiced here very often and often in a more attractive packaging that k0rpsy had. The few fanatic socionists also help us to indirectly promote about these flaws in the model. Afterall, nobody wants to be a maritsa.

LOL Oh my gosh is that cute! Love the feathered bangs. Your mom is probably not much older than I am! haha Thanks for finding this. I can see why you said it reminded you of her.

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Originally Posted by redbaron

There is no type my children could be that would cause me to love them less. This post of yours is basically saying "if you're a parent, you shouldn't even know about socionics because it will inevitably cause you to treat your children differently, even if it's unconscious." Kinda silly.

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You obviously don't comprehend causality. And the upshot of what I'm saying is socionics is stupid and cognitively deformative.

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Originally Posted by k0rpsy

You obviously don't comprehend causality. And the upshot of what I'm saying is socionics is stupid and cognitively deformative.

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not sure why you're here then. to warn us?

more than once i've seen half-joking comments in the chatbox about how horrible it would be to have a conflictor child greeted with nothing but half-joking knowing nod type of reactions. the amount of backlash that the "maritsa"s get (as if it is just maritsa) is not commensurate. it's useful to have some skepticism and i think when people immediately react against it it says something about how "loosely" they really do take socionics.

i think this thread was delicate because it was a parent-child scenario, but the same truths about typing hold true regardless.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aivonaima

@Aquagraph – first of all, I think that when it's about a child who is vulnerable to what her parents tell her, you should consider the effects you'll have on her more carefully than in the case of adults. Secondly, children are constantly growing and developing and it's sometimes hard to tell what the outcome will be. But then again, yeah, I'm not a mom and will probably never be, so what do I know.

I just think there's no reason to wave off k0rpsy's message with a wtf get out, because if there's really no problem, the whole thing can be settled rationally without getting offended or offensive. You know, consider the viewpoint, admit even the unpleasant possible effects of one's actions and that way try to prevent any possible damage.

Lastly, if people really always realized their models are faulty, the world would probably be a whole different place. I think you know that pretty well.

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I don't think she is taking his remarks offensively at all, she told him to get out because HE is the one who is taking it too seriously. She didn't seem offended at all. In fact she seemed more annoyed that people think she is trying to type her child in order to treat her child as a type. I think she just wants to understand her kid more?? It has nothing to do with, "oh my child is this type..so I will thrust this function their way and try to to help mold them"
She's saying...Oh, I've fucking kids, I'm curious of their types..Not going to do anything with the information, not even going to absolutely believe it, seems like she' s just brainstorming here. Doesn't sound like needs a "Reality check" like some of you are assuming...which how you pulled that out of your asses is interesting... and speaks volumes. as she isn't a socionist fanatic like marista or Tchaud.

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Originally Posted by redbaron

not sure why you're here then. to warn us?

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Well, k0rpsy doesn't talk about socionics a lot. And the amount of threat he sees within socionics to hurt relationships, it seems strange that he still constantly reminds himself of it's existence by being on this forum.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aivonaima

@Aquagraph – first of all, I think that when it's about a child who is vulnerable to what her parents tell her, you should consider the effects you'll have on her more carefully than in the case of adults. Secondly, children are constantly growing and developing and it's sometimes hard to tell what the outcome will be. But then again, yeah, I'm not a mom and will probably never be, so what do I know.

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I trust Redbaron won't be teaching them about typology with an attitude they would take to their hearts. But yeah usually challenge with children is that they are delicate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aivonaima

I just think there's no reason to wave off k0rpsy's message with a wtf get out, because if there's really no problem, the whole thing can be settled rationally without getting offended or offensive.

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I hope you are not implying I did such? I agree that Redbaron's reaction could have been more open. The message might have aimed to be helpful but it probably felt hostile. Hostility is usually perceived as a sign of unconstructive communication.

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Originally Posted by Aivonaima

You know, consider the viewpoint, admit even the unpleasant possible effects of one's actions and that way try to prevent any possible damage.

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I have done all of those things. I didn't feel like repeating them in this thread, just like I didn't feel like repeating the possibility of Redbaron typing her child as a projection of her affection which could lead to positive results due to it being a self-fulfilling prophecy.

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Originally Posted by Aivonaima

Lastly, if people really always realized their models are faulty, the world would probably be a whole different place. I think you know that pretty well.

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This community is still very aware of it when it comes to socionics. You don't see most of the older members even wanting to talk about socionics.

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Originally Posted by Aivonaima

In a nutshell: it's easy to misunderstand others in the internet due to the lack of a) actually knowing each other and our differing ways of communication [...]

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Hey I know something for that! Have you heard about this thing called Socionics?
:P

aivo i like the way you think. :love:

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Originally Posted by Aivonaima

- If someone's behaving in a hostile or unconstructive manner, it usually doesn't make things any better if you respond to it with a similar hostility.
- I (and possibly some other members) cannot trust redbaron doing or not doing anything because I don't know her and it would be a handy thing to take into account IMO – only information that has already been provided can be observed and further reasoned.

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True.
I could mention about how rude it usually is to tell how strangers should think about their children.

But k0rpsy is Fe PoLR so it's okay.
:lol:

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Originally Posted by Aivonaima

<picture>

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Shoot me if she's not this type, but your mother looks hundred percent SEI.

Cute how my initial post was taken at face value instead of being recognized as the less-than-serious exaggeration it is.

More later when I'm not hampered by typing on a phone, though I might post on related matters in another thread rather than running this one further off its rails. Redbaron has demonstrated repeatedly that she'd prefer to only be told what she wants to hear.

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Originally Posted by Aquagraph

True.
I could mention about how rude it usually is to tell how strangers should think about their children.

But k0rpsy is Fe PoLR so it's okay.
:lol:

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That's a flimsy excuse when I'm fully cognizant of my actions, especially since redbaron has rewarded me at every step by responding almost exactly as I expected.

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Originally Posted by k0rpsy

Redbaron has demonstrated repeatedly that she'd prefer to only be told what she wants to hear.

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Be sure to include how approachable you think your message gets after saying stuff like this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by k0rpsy

That's a flimsy excuse when I'm fully cognizant of my actions, especially since redbaron has rewarded me at every step by responding almost exactly as I expected.

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And it's also less humorous remark if taken seriously.

lol wow this got offtopic fast. :P

Socionics is just mental masturbation, not a way of life. It gives me something to think about when I'm bored, and even after I type someone, I'm always open to new information and retyping as necessary, sometimes just to see if I think another type could fit. I don't really see what the big deal is about typing kids. I can see how some people could take it way too far, but most of us on this forum aren't crazy.

Anyway, I think my boyfriends daughter is xSE, and I'm very curious to see how she turns out. I'm leaning towards LSE at the moment, but that changes on a regular basis.

for the record I see Delta nf fitting more than anything else for my son but I wasn't at all offended by what korp said. I saw it as a comment on the cognitive biases thinking about socionics creates and not a parenting critique.

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Originally Posted by Aivonaima

I can assure you she isn't. :D Everything points to her being ESI. She is extremely Fi-base, clearly gamma, a great but very strict Se-kinda leader (she's worked her whole life on jobs that center around directing, teaching and controlling others) and married to a blazing case of an LIE, no less. She's also constantly clashing with my ESE brother and constantly has problems with my XLE dad's utmost Fi PoLR. Your VI-dar needs adjusting. ;)

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Ok, maybe she's not SEI. :D But I refuse to believe she is other than a Si Ego! And BTW, most of your justifications are soooo subjective. From this paragraph all that I *could* take seriously would be teaching or controlling others, though I think I have a guess where that comes from when it's about your mother - it's your mother. I mean you seem the person who look for the thrill in live, while I can very easily see how a Si Ego parent would try to prevent you, making you seeing him/her as "narrow-minded" and "controlling".

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Originally Posted by k0rpsy

Redbaron has demonstrated repeatedly that she'd prefer to only be told what she wants to hear.

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you know what, I was trying to be cordial in this thread but fuck you. There was nothing in particular I wanted to hear in this thread. I was, and still am, open to considering almost any type for her. You're being an asshole to me for no apparent reason.

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Originally Posted by Aivonaima

Umm, okay. Well, I just happen to get a differing gut feeling about this. I don't see why k0rpsy's post, however lacking of consideration, couldn't have been replied with "oh, I see what you're trying to say, I'll offer my own view now so you could also consider it and we could settle possible misunderstandings" instead of wtf get out. Getting all defensive just seems to me like an attempt to shun something out, which of course, can be perfectly natural, but once recognized, could be worked on for the sake of progression. I dunno, IMO even just a simple "hey, I'm just speculating, and have never force fed my views to my children, nor based my actions towards them on socionics" would do, and even clarify things.

In a nutshell: it's easy to misunderstand others in the internet due to the lack of a) actually knowing each other and our differing ways of communication and b) seeing each other, others' expressions and hearing the tones of others' voices, which it's only practical to clarify things as rationally and nonviolently as possible. I'm not saying there can't be personality, zest, feelings and emotions when expressing yourself on the internet, but during discussions like this it might just prevent a lot of unclarity and even emotional turmoil.

But yeah, this is getting a bit off-topic (or even meta-topic), so maybe I'll leave it here, only hoping I made my point clear.

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My response to this is that you are kind and seem to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, but obviously you do not know of Korpsy. He's always negative, always an asshole, on purpose, always puts everyone down, and pretty much everything he says, is supposedly "in jest" is just a way for him to be bitter about everything. He doesn't care how people respond to him, he has preconceived notions about how EVERYONE will respond to him. It's ridiculous he even wastes his time coming to this forum as he does nothing but bitch and complain. That is why people tend to respond to him in hostility, he's a fucking asshole who doesn't give a shit about what anyone else thinks or says and pukes rude comments on other people's threads who want to actually discuss socionics. Reality checks may be needed for someone people, but not redbaron.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aivonaima

Augh, this is going so, so offtopic,

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Welcome to T16T.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aivonaima

True there. But that might also be why I can take a more neutral approach to what's happening in this particular thread.



If it's all the same how you reply to him, then why not refrain from hostility for your own sake if nothing else?

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You have a point. But you're also kinder than I.... and I honestly just wish he would simply stop for everyone's sake.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by redbaron

you know what, I was trying to be cordial in this thread but fuck you. There was nothing in particular I wanted to hear in this thread. I was, and still am, open to considering almost any type for her. You're being an asshole to me for no apparent reason.

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What you want to hear are suggestions concerning the appropriate sociotypal labeling for your kid, not general critiques of applied typology's effect on interpersonal perception and action. I already said I'd bring up the latter elsewhere so you can enjoy your convo here.

Oh shit, I just read more more than I had to. I'm going to have a damn good time on this forum.

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Originally Posted by Absurd

Oh shit, I just read more more than I had to. I'm going to have a damn good time on this forum.

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Yeah, hehe. Grated carrots.

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Originally Posted by Aivonaima

Yeah, hehe. Grated carrots.

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http://www.odditycentral.com/funny/c...vegetable.html

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Originally Posted by k0rpsy

Redbaron has demonstrated repeatedly that she'd prefer to only be told what she wants to hear.

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That's no different from majority of people posting on here, even you.

 

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aivonaima

I'm sorry I'm bumping and old thread but I thought I'd get back to this when I remembered this thread very unexpectedly! I was browsing through ESI photos (I got my ESI mom hooked into socionics – she thinks it's useful when working as an executive :D ) and these smiles reminded me instantly of your daughter's smile. And I'm partly blind to faces, no less! So yeah:

http://www.socionics.us/celebrities/7/hasselhoff_1.jpg http://www.socionics.us/celebrities/6/rotaru_2.jpg http://www.socionics.us/celebrities/temp/travolta_3.jpg http://www.socionics.us/celebrities/temp/leigh_3.jpg

I get a quietly warm feeling from ESI smiles... And the eyes generally seem softer and kinder than some other types. I think the difference is visible between your two daughters too – the IEI one has a more intense, more edgy expression (on the photo, at least).

I'm partly posting this to hear reactions and get feedback on my VI abilities :D :D :D It's an interesting subject to someone diagnosed with an autistic disorder.

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Rick's ESI type representatives are really bad. David Hasselhoff is very definitely not an IXXj and it boggles my mind anyone would mistake him as one (same with Pamela Anderson, not listed here); I'd venture a guess at ESXj for his type. John Travolta I have no solid type impression of -- he comes off as too fake and made-up for me to pin down to a single type, yet maybe that lack of connection says something against his being IXFj. I could buy ESFj for Rotaru, but I don't know anything about her aside from her name and woman on the right I could see as ISFj, although again I don't have the patience to sit through videos of her to solidify my impression. On a tangential note, this is how Rick chooses to describe ESIs (re: woman on right):

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Comments:
Rigid and tough. Can get what she wants.

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Yet this is not how I would describe ESIs. In fact, this is how I would describe EXTx women. To me, IXFx types are the exact opposite of rigid and tough, they're usually soft-spoken and malleable, willing to bend backwards, tend to dislike conflict, etc. I understand this might be how they come across as to ILEs, but to use this subjective impression as a litmus test all across the board leads to random-ass typings we see above. ISFj and INFj are very, very similar and yet whereas INFj representatives are often spot-on, I don't understand why the deviation shoots up when one letter is changed. Something is amiss here.

se in the ego means ur a stone cold killer bitch who nevah takes shit from anyone and gets whatever they want. fuck yeah

i feel pretty balanced. rigid and tough i can relate to, soft-spoken and malleable i can relate to. it just depends. people from a distance are more likely to describe me as timid and people i know well describe me as more aggressive.

but there's a weird standard some people have for se-creative types like where people like absurd who are a caricature of stubborness are the benchmark. and being deliberate, careful, indecisive, or willing to consider where other people might be coming from is evidence against ne polr, even though, hello, :Fi: and weak :Te:.

how are you even supposed to use :Fi: and be some kind "moral arbiter" as they would say without having some comfort and confidence in being able to introspect and give consideration to other ethical perspectives? without those abilities you'd be kind of an :Fi: idiot. but apparently those abilities are just in the realm of intuition.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lungs

but there's a weird standard some people have for se-creative types like where people like absurd who are a caricature of stubborness are the benchmark. and being deliberate, careful, indecisive, or willing to consider where other people might be coming from is evidence against ne polr, even though, hello, :Fi: and weak :Te:.

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Please, not again. I can take Maritsa on a perfect day, but please, what did I ever do to you? I have been alright, unless you know about something I don't, and where is this Fi and weak Te - are you comparing yourself to me?

It seems to me you're actually talking about yourself. Correct me if I am wrong. It's cool you think out of the box, that's a really great thing - connecting dots - but why is that I am still Ne polr. I have never self-typed ESI nor LSI.

Plus you have a pretty skewed impression of me. And I'm not going to "be a stone cold bitch" as you put it as long you or any one else actually gets it, that I won't remain alright/kind when faced with it. If that makes me Se ego, time to re-write socionics. Have a pen :)

you come to the strangest conclusions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lungs

you come to the strangest conclusions.

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Well, beer after work + korpsey, + strnnr something or whatever he is called + crazie brat. Sorry, won't happen again, although I can't promise that.

I'm not even here, try somebody else for comparisons, thank you. Blackburry comes to mind :)

Alright, what's past is past. I can be this guinea pig. Fire at will.

Can I get my battleships equipped with nukes this time, though, I mean my fishing ships with fishing gear?

I am alright, no worries.

Okay, I better go to bed.

goodnight.

I see this as a typing thread is over a month old.. but I want to add that my first thought, from description, was ENFJ. Possibly INFJ. But the relations with her brother point to the ENFJ, in my opinion. You have beautiful children, @redbaron, and they look happy and healthy. You are blessed.

P.S. I compare her to my son's ENFJ friend, and also another one that I know*. This friend of his has a similar look as well as being a very excellent student and always knows the schedule, and can juggle a tight one. She is often very, very outgoing, and my SLE son and she enjoy a nice Activity relationship. Its a very outgoing connection they have. She recently had a foreign student come live in her house, her age, and I believe this girl is an ESFP. Suddenly ENFJ seems not-so outgoing, she takes a back seat to ESFP's extreme delight in socializing (something that she has not enjoyed adjusting to so suddenly I gather). This leads me to think that ESFx's might be more socially outgoing than ENFx's, at least when they are together. Which would explain the difference in the sisters that you described.

Well, its been a couple of months, did you decided her type?

______________
Actually I can think of three, all are good students.