Differences between Fi and Fe: Your Interpretation

This is not an "Fi is better than Fe because..." or "Fe is better than Fi because..." thread. It's just about pegging down what makes the two functions different and unique.

How you interpret Fi or Fe


1. How do you interpret Fi? Provide examples of this in real life and how you felt when interacting with someone that was clearly utilizing Fi.

2. How do you interpret Fe? Provide examples of this in real life and how you felt when interacting with someone that was clearly utilizing Fe.

3. What does Fi ultimately seek to do? What is the purpose of this information element? How is this purpose achieved?

4. What does Fe ultimately seek to do? What is the purpose of this information element? How is this purpose achieved?

5. How can someone appeal to an Fi primary/creative? What are some things that one might say that makes an Fi primary/creative feel comfortable or appreciated? Things one should avoid saying?

6. How can someone appeal to an Fe primary/creative? What are some things that one might say that makes an Fe primary/creative feel comfortable or appreciated? Things one should avoid saying?

7. How might Fi be utilized to help someone else?

8. How might Fe be utilized to help someone else?

Fe seeks engagement, collaboration, alliance.

Fi seeks honor, commitment ...

I'll get back to this later.

Fe: cynic, expect worse of people, surprised when people are caring and compassionate to someone else because they expect the worse of people
Fi: idealist, think and expect positively of people, surprised when people behave callously

Please answer the questions I wrote above, if you have the time/desire to do so.

The distinguishing characteristic of Fi is that it's inherently better than Fe.

LOL!

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Originally Posted by Clumsy

Please answer the questions I wrote above, if you have the time/desire to do so.

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I will work on that sometime this week.

Information Elements are "noticed", not utilitized, that is true. They are areas of interest, not cognitive functions. However, you are taking note of an aspect of reality... and then utilitizing that awareness... so in a roundabout way you use IE. She truncated her explaination.

Anyway, information elements come into our active awareness in a compound form - the valued ring and so on, - so it would be best to discuss the IE in a compound form. That said, we should discuss Fi/Fe by quarta. That would be more precise, then draw out (distill) the essence of each accordingly.

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Originally Posted by Ashton

Your questions are bogus because they're predicated on the notion that one can actively "utilize" an IE.

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Would the word "demonstrate" be correct?

Fi as base function: evaluate others according to one's own principles
Fi as creative function: perceive links between people and alter them
Fe as base function: to express oneself without restraints
Fe as creative function: to alter the emotional state of others, to stir or to calm them
Fi as role: to try to come across as sensitive
Fe as role: to have a weird smile
Fi polr: to ignore others' beliefs
Fe polr: to ignore others' emotional state

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Originally Posted by Clumsy

"Fi is better than Fe because..."

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ok

Fe is not necessarily raw emotionality, but I have noticed that Fe egos tend to be distinctly aware of the group atmosphere (whether in small group, community, etc.) and try to ensure that this group atmosphere remains positive. I have had an Fe ego tell me to mow the lawn merely for the fact that the grass at my house looked worse than the grass at other houses on the block (this is perhaps not getting into the real reason; I understand well in my mind but it is hard to put into words). Generally amiable people but if they get angry they get extremely demanding and moody, at least in my experience.

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Originally Posted by nil

Fe is not necessarily raw emotionality, but I have noticed that Fe egos tend to be distinctly aware of the group atmosphere (whether in small group, community, etc.) and try to ensure that this group atmosphere remains positive. I have had Fe egos tell me to mow the lawn merely for the fact that the grass at my house looked worse than the grass at other houses on the block (this is perhaps not getting into the real reason; I understand well in my mind but it is hard to put into words). Generally amiable people but if they get angry they get extremely demanding and moody, at least in my experience.

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That was an Fe ego who is not PoLR Si!

A reply from a past thread:

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Originally Posted by Marie84

Fi is subjective relations between objects. It filters the sentiments of repulsion and attraction in oneself and in others. When a person is questioning how much, say, they or someone else likes a person or if that person appears to like or dislike them, they're using Fi. It's typically linked as a relational element since it monitors the relational proximity between others, which allows for one to adapt to particular relations appropriately

Fe monitors the internal emotional processes that are taking place within an atmosphere or individual. It allows the ability to convey and identify the mood in oneself and others. When a person is identifying the emotional state of an individual or the general mood of the atmosphere they're within they're using Fe (i.e. "this person is sad/happy, warm/cold, grouchy/elated" etc) Fe can also enable someone to make attempts at inducing said moods in others

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I might expand on this later

This is how I see Fe>Fi

http://i55.tinypic.com/mtxji9.gif

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Originally Posted by Maritsa33

Fe: cynic, expect worse of people, surprised when people are caring and compassionate to someone else because they expect the worse of people
Fi: idealist, think and expect positively of people, surprised when people behave callously

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Hahaha

I think maritsa got the first point.

no.

In note format, please forgive formatting errors:

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3. What does Fi ultimately seek to do? What is the purpose of this information element? How is this purpose achieved?

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Fi, as with other elements, is one way in which we attempt to make sense of the world around us, including the world within ourselves.

Fi, like Ti, is a method of discovering and communicating perceived relationships between things, people, and events.

Fi's method utilizes perceptions of emotional and cognitive impacts that occur when relating at least one TPE to another TPE.

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1. How do you interpret Fi? Provide examples of this in real life and how you felt when interacting with someone that was clearly utilizing Fi.

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Since Fi types are oriented to relational emotional/cognitive impact, their words/actions will often reflect such. This might include
a sense of being orientated 'towards vs away from ' a TPE.

• This might be their own orientation to a given TPE,
  And/Or their perception of a TPE's orientation to another TPE.
  
  Related emotions
  
  • Like/dislike
    Fear
    Concern
    Curiosity
    Confusion
    Etc
  
  From these orientations, we get related values.
  
  A sense of intensity of the impact
  
  • Such as a range between hatred-repulsed-dislike-neutral-like-love

Fi types will often relate how one TPE reminds them of another TPE, which reminds them of another TPE.
This chain of relationships between the TPE is based on some similarity of the emotional/cognitive impacts each TPE effected, rather than any explicit similarities. In fact, if asked for how these TPE are explicitely related to each other, the Fi type might have difficulty... (Particularly so for Fi creatives.)


Example 1
Not quite the example you asked for, but...A real life example of my Fi in relation to your questions.
As I try to come up with real life examples to provide, I feel overwhelmed. Why? Because there are so many, how am I to choose just one? I find it interesting that you are interested in this topic, and I appreciate the approach you are taking, as if you are trying to ground the IE into concrete specific things to look for, including samples of approaches. I find your approach refreshing. As such, I felt compelled to help your efforts by sharing with you my, personal, answers to these questions.

Example 2: Fi vs Ti

• Fi: what i find interesting/important here is how this info affects the reader
  Ti: the effect on the reader isn't as important as the truth of the statement
  Fi: regardless of whether it is true or not, it will effect the reader in some way. The reader will orient the info based on how well the info relates to what they already believe, know, and experienced
  Ti: screw that, the reader should be oriented to the truth/falsity in things, period.
  Fi: but the reader can only judge the truth/falsity of the statement based on their previous experiences, beliefs, etc
  Ti: bullshit. The truth/falsity of the statement should be self evident, regardless of the reader's experiences/beliefs

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5. How can someone appeal to an Fi primary/creative? What are some things that one might say that makes an Fi primary/creative feel comfortable or appreciated? Things one should avoid saying?

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Bring up how this TPE is related to another TPE that they have experienced (or heard/read about).

Let them know what orientation you have towards a TPE, even if it's a neutral one.

Expect that they may change their orientation to you based on what orientations you've expressed...even the neutral ones.

Remember always, that relatonships are something we do, not something we have. We relate to each other, based on similarities and differences. The more closely matched our experiences and orientations, the more we are able to relate to each other. The less matched, the less we have to relate through.
(Please keep in mind, that there is also relating based on compatibility. Where each person covers the other person's weaknesses, thereby creating a strengthened unit.)

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7. How might Fi be utilized to help someone else?

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Depends on the problem?

You can help a person sort out their orientations towards/away from aspects of a TPE. The finer you go, the more clearer of their values, but the harder to come to a decision with multiple conflicting orientations to even one TPE.

You can help them make sense of a TPE by asking them what the first TPE reminds them of, and how this remembered TPE impacted them.

Back to, It depends on the problem.

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4. What does Fe ultimately seek to do? What is the purpose of this information element? How is this purpose achieved?

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Fe, as with other elements, is one way in which we attempt to make sense of the world around us, including the world within ourselves.

Fe, like Te, is a method of discovering and communicating perceived actions of things, people, and events.

Fe's method utilizes perceptions of emotional and cognitive impacts that occur when a TPE is in spatial and/or temporal motion. (changes that occur across space and/or time)

An example would be like when a white tailed deer senses danger, and flees, The sight of the flashing white tail, triggers a flight response in the neighboring deer, setting them all into motion, without them having to know specifically what the danger is.
Put another way, the signal of the fleeing deer triggered an emotional/psychological impact in the other deer.
Humans have similar signalling systems.

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2. How do you interpret Fe? Provide examples of this in real life and how you felt when interacting with someone that was clearly utilizing Fe.

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Since Fe types are oriented to dynamic emotional/cognitive impact, their words/actions will often reflect such. This might include:

• Mentioning moods of a person, or a group
  Recognizing the interplay between their signals and your signals
  Orienting themselves based on the signals a TPE is sending out (strong Fe also has strong unconscious Fi)
  Pointing out signals you, or another TPE, might be sending
  And maybe even what they perceive those signals/emotions to mean; Sometimes stated as if it has universal meaning

Example

• An XiFe blind date and I were eating in a fast food restaurant, talking about I don't remember. His voice kept slowly rising in loudness and somewhat in pitch. I noticed neighboring diners giving us dirty looks, and one shaking her head. I interpreted this to mean that we were disturbing their own conversations. They didn't like that, I didn't blame them. I hand signaled him to lower his voice. I had to do this a couple of times. Suddenly, after one of those signals, he abruptly shut up, finished his food, and left. I was in a bit of shock. (relief, too, as I hadn't found anything of him yet that I could relate with)
  
  A couple of years later, my NiFe friend and I were talking aout Fi and Fe. (he's the one that brought me to socionics, but left this forum soon after) Anyways, the gist of the conver was that he reads my signals, but my signals aren't clear, like they are slow or withheld from him. This gave him little to no feedback, so he didn't know how to adjust what he was saying, for me. He said that he would try to elevate my energy levels, by talking faster, or louder, or higher, expecting that by doing so, I would respond faster or clearer to him. But instead, my signals would get softer, more hidden, slower. So he'd try to speed them up more...which would 'slow me down' more. And then, I would do the hand signal thing, to 'calm him down', and that would piss him off! I wasn't responding to his signals, yet I was also trying to quiet his own down??? We talked through it, and sorted some of it out. But since that conver, I've often wondered if something similar was happening with that blind date guy.
  
  One other example, In grade school, my daughter's principle was an FeXi. It was disgustingly obvious. Disgustingly as in full of the 'fakeness' that people here often associate with Fe, though Fe is not fakeness. My daughter didn't like her, and refused to come with me to an appt we had. I waited for a bit, and then the woman came out. She spoke sternly to one office worker, then did a sudden 'mood' shift to talk to a student who was waiting (the student responded well to it), then spoke with the front secretary in a hurrying/rushed tone, then turned to me, and I watched as her whole body and face shifted to that of...'make nice with the parent' mood. She led me to her office, talking a bit rushed and cheerily, made a passing joke to one of the kids...which envolved using her fingers to simulate drawing a very big smile on her face and telling the kid to be happy, or some such thing. Then she led me into her office. I wasn't really sure what to make of her. And...she didn't seem to be sure of what to make of me. I was failing to respond to a few...i dunno what to call it....mood altering attempts. I think she was trying to feel me out, to figure out what approach to take with me, and I was giving her nothing to work with. Finally she dropped all that and went straight to the point...of which I responded well too, lol. A couple of times she'd say something as if trying to get me to see her and I as being on the same team, but she quickly dropped doing that after two times of me looking at her with a deadpan face.
  
  Ok, one more example, a little more subtle in terms of the dynamic emotional/cognitive impact. My FeSi friend has had a tumultuous relationship with her husband. (I think he might be IP temperament.) Anyways, she had certain expectations of how a husband and father should be. And this man met NONE of them! She was constantly trying to change him into meeting her image of how he should be. And he, of course, was constantly resisting, usually by withdrawing from the home for a while, until she'd beg him to come back. And as soon as she realized that he wasn't changing into her ideal man, she'd start pestering him again. This cycle had been going on for over ten years!!! Anyways, at one point, she finally had to file for divorce. She'd let him move back in...started her routine, they got into a physical altercation and she had to be removed from her own home (because she had been the one to start it). I was helping her get her home back, and her two kids back. Trying to get her to focus was Hell! Anyways...during one of the focusing attempts, where she kept going on and on about how he SHOULD be, I asked her what was he like before they had gotten married. She described pretty much the same guy. I asked her what made her think that he would change from the guy she was dating, to the husband she wanted. She told me that she assumed that once they married, that he would WANT to change into being a husband who blah blah blah. I asked her, what made you think he wanted to do blah blah blah. She said...because he wanted to marry. How is this related to Fe? Because in her case, she's referring to the emotional/psychological impact on him of the dynamic changes occuring...that of getting married, and how surely he would WANT to adapt to the new dynamics and their resulting emotional/cognitive impacts on him. Since he wasn't adapting himself, she was trying to 'encourage' the emotional/cognitive impacts she expected him to have.

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6. How can someone appeal to an Fe primary/creative? What are some things that one might say that makes an Fe primary/creative feel comfortable or appreciated? Things one should avoid saying?

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• Well, first I would suggest keeping in mind that, whether you intend to or not, you are constantly sending out signals. Accept that, don't fight it. Especially don't try to hide it. When you try to hide it, you wind up sending conflicting or mixed messages. And Fe WILL pick up on this...often resulting in lack of trust. After all...what are you trying to hide...and WHY are you trying to hide it?? Very suspiscious of you! (particularly to Fe creatives) Just don't hide it. Let it all come out naturally.
  
  Second, I would remind you that what you do, and how you do it is going to influence Fe emotionally and psychologically. Particularly Fe base. They have every right to block those impacts, or try to change them. It's not them being fake. It's them influencing their own emotional/psychological impacts. Just as if you have a thorn in your finger, causing you pain...you have the right to pull it out, to try to stop the pain... So does Fe have the right to try to stop whatever negative impact you are triggering in them, and/or turn it into a more positive impact for them.
  
  Fe doesn't particularly care about your orientation to a topic, they don't much care about your claimed intent. They care very much about the actual impact you are having on them...or someone/thing else. That is what matters most. Oh, but don't think that intent doesn't matter at all to them. Based on the e/c impact, they will perceive an intent. Whether or not you agree, disagree, claim, or deny that was your intent...your actions spoke otherwise. This is particularly true of XiFe...who take the time to observe the dynamic interactions going on, before they influence it in some way, into a direction they deem it should go. Obviously...everyone does that, right? So if you've influenced something that was happening, it's assumed that you ALSO observed it all and chose to influence it at that time, in that way. As for correcting the erred interpretations? Good luck. It takes a huge amount of back and forth discussions to clear it up...both parties have to be willing to sort it out, not just one wanting to be heard.
  
  Think of sign language, which utilizes Fe extensively. Watch a show or video of ASL, with subtitles. Notice how much of the information comes from the combination of both language sign AND the bodily/facial signals. That without those other signals, the 'reader' would only get bits of pieces, and little context to place it all in.

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8. How might Fe be utilized to help someone else?

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Many therapeutic techniques have been based off the idea that you can alter your mood by altering your thoughts...as well as your behavior. That if you look in the mirror, see yourself smiling, smile throughout the day, think happy/good/useful thoughts...then your mood will adjust to match the behavior and thoughts.

And vice versa, that if you take this pill, or exercise hard enough, your mood will elevate, and you'll have elevated thoughts/behavior.
Other techniques include altering who you hang out with, as the actons and words of those people will influence you emotionally and cognitively. Do they trigger stress in you? Or do they relax you? Do they inspire you? Or bring you down?

Pay attention to what actions you are doing...and the e/c impact they are having on yourself...and those around you. Is this the impact you want/intend? If not, how might you create that desired impact? (notice a link with Fi? Fi is not the focus, but it's still a part of Fe, and vice versa)

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For both Fe and Fi

• Be aware of the emotional and cognitive impacts your words and actions might have on the person. To have a clue on this, you'd have to know them, personally. Else it's hit and miss.
  
  You would also do best if you have a clue as to what emotional/cognitive impact you are going for.
  
  For any particular person, you would learn what words/actions/TPE trigger a positive impact for them. Which ones a negative impact. And which ones might create the impact you are intending.
  
  Often, the mere process of getting to know what impacts them emotionally/psychologically helps them feel comfortable and/or appreciated.
  
  Also, expressing similar sentiments (via words/actions/signals), believably, will help them feel more comfortable around you.
  
  But be warned, not every F type likes to explicitely discuss these things, particular the more personal/emotional stuff. Introverted F types will usually feel awkward or embarrassed at such blatant attempts to get too personal.
  
  One way of looking at this warning, is to remember that often, emotional/cognitive impacts are felt so deeply, that exposing them would be akin to exposing your/their self. People have a history of judging, rejecting, criticizing, and manipulating perceived weaknesses in others. Exposing your/their emotions also exposes your/their weaknesses, and how you/they can be manipulated. As such, expressing these things can be a dangerous thing.

Fe is like Maritsa.

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Originally Posted by Parkster

Fe is like Maritsa.

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Wtf, man...

ann, you are awesome.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by anndelise

Fi types will often relate how one TPE reminds them of another TPE, which reminds them of another TPE.
This chain of relationships between the TPE is based on some similarity of the emotional/cognitive impacts each TPE effected, rather than any explicit similarities. In fact, if asked for how these TPE are explicitely related to each other, the Fi type might have difficulty... (Particularly so for Fi creatives.)

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What is "TPE"?

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Originally Posted by Maritsa33

What is "TPE"?

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TPE is a shortened form of "things, people, and events".

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Originally Posted by anndelise

TPE is a shortened form of "things, people, and events".

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I, as a base Fi, do have a difficulty describing how things are related, as you have described mostly because I'm still extracting my own feelings or my own interpretation of the object at hand; I don't objectify objects so I'm not in constant practice of looking at their features and saying "you are like me in that way or you are like my mother in that way."

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Originally Posted by Maritsa33

I, as a base Fi, do have a difficulty describing how things are related, as you have described

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In my view, describing explicitely how things are related to other things would be related to Ti.

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mostly because I'm still extracting my own feelings or my own interpretation of the object at hand;

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In this case, you are one of the TPE.
So there is the object, then there is you, and then there is the emotional/cognitive impact upon you. This is the relationship between you and the object.

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I don't objectify objects so I'm not in constant practice of looking at their features and saying "you are like me in that way or you are like my mother in that way."

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I don't know what you mean by "objectify objects", so I cannot comment on any possible misunderstandings there.

What you are describing with the last part, though, seems to be off from what I am describing.
In that, what I'm describing is that Fi would pay attention to the emotional/cognitive impacts which occur when relating the two or more TPE. In your example, you are one TPE, 'I' am another TPE, and your mother is another TPE. When you interact with me, in whatever way, your Fi would pay attention to the emotional/cognitive impacts you would feel. Then your brain would bring up some kind of reminder of another TPE which you felt the same way about...or, a reminder of a TPE which is completely different from me...such as an ideal which I don't match up to.

It is through these emotional/cognitive relationships that Fi types primarily 'feel' their way around.

Ok, maybe I understand now the last part of your post.
Right, in that an Fi type would have difficulty saying in what way 'I' had reminded you of your mother, or in what way 'I' was completely different from your ideal. The feelings would be there, the relationship in the Fi's mind would be there, but to make it explicit would require stepping into Ti territory.
Is this what you were referring to?

The forum tends to give too little potency to Ni and Fe

Fe = (signal, stimulus, vibration, succor, reception, signature, allure, attraction, charm, profit, influence, agreement, alliance, endorsement, promotion, advantage, campaign, and countersignature.)


This is the sound of Fe/Ti in its most pure form:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVqUXRS0iro


(This song is awesome when it hits 3:33)

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Originally Posted by octo

I like your descriptions ann, although they're really pro-Fi and anti-Fe (for obvious reasons) :)

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I am sorry if my descriptions came out that way.
I was trying to balance them both with the common stereotypes/descriptions.

Such as Fi being about judging good vs evil. Common thoughts are that Fi is useless and certainly can't be involved when making sense of anything beyond that. These descriptions sell Fi short.

For Fe, there's been a lot claims that Fe is fakeness and manipulative. So I tried to show how Fe is NOT those things.

I apologize if my descriptions came out pro/anti anything.

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Originally Posted by anndelise

Is this what you were referring to?

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Yes, because Fi is a feeling which words and thoughts are not easy to convey; to think and express something in words requires thoughts; since Fi base naturally has weaker Ti but it's still there, their thoughts may not be easily and fully expressed, but their feelings are still there; by saying that I don't objectify my mother, as an example, what I'm saying is that I don't find FACTS about her that characterize her and facts about others and compare those facts in the external sense; a natural inclination to "idealize" a person, make judgments about them and others based on preexisting Fi values creates a feeling attitude about these persons and things and when a feeling attitude is created, it naturally devalues thinking attitude as a consequence, this is why Fi types can either do Fi or Ti at a single time, interchangeably and not together (Ti is the Role type of Fi base).

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Originally Posted by Maritsa33

What is "TPE"?

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Short for type.

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Originally Posted by polikujm

Short for type.

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No

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Originally Posted by octo

No, you have nothing to apologise for. It was mainly your real life examples of Fe-egos which were on the negative side, which is kind of expected - most people would remember unpleasant real life examples of their unvalued elements which highlight clashes in perception over pleasant ones, or examples where Fe and Fi led to different results, rather than when they took different paths to reach a result which both sides wanted. The unnatural sticks out a lot more than what's natural. :)

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Negativity bias

"1. How do you interpret Fi? Provide examples of this in real life and how you felt when interacting with someone that was clearly utilizing Fi."

They will preach about their own subjective interests without connecting it to a whole and without caring about how it makes other people feel. They think that would be 'fake' or something. It's not that they lack empathy, they just are gung-ho about personal expression.

"2. How do you interpret Fe? Provide examples of this in real life and how you felt when interacting with someone that was clearly utilizing Fe."

They will preach that everybody should get along and love each other and find common ground when it's clear that people would rather fight and hate. If the Fi-valuer doesn't listen, the Fe person will then narcissistically exploit all their psychological flaws in a work of Family Guy-ish art. Which infuriates the Fi-valuer and the cycle continues.

3. "What does Fi ultimately seek to do? What is the purpose of this information element? How is this purpose achieved?"

It doesn't seek to do anything. It just is. It's about a relationship/field...it is essentially the function of personal preference. Like and dislike, hatred or love. Remember, IEIs are good at Fi - but we just don't value it as much as Fe. IEIs know how to use Fi pretty well.

4. "What does Fe ultimately seek to do? What is the purpose of this information element? How is this purpose achieved?"

Fe seeks to achieve a harmony/rhythm/emotional balance between objects. It's naturally more diplomatic as opposed to "I hate ms. klein's chin because it's so fat." or "I love nick browning because he's the only person who understands my love of cheesy soap opera novels."

"5. How can someone appeal to an Fi primary/creative? What are some things that one might say that makes an Fi primary/creative feel comfortable or appreciated? Things one should avoid saying?"

You can't take emotional or personal offense to their snobbery which is difficult at times. Basically the trick seems to be add cool, rational logical advice to all their emotional outbursts. They're looking for somebody to sort of smile with them while they prick somebody apart. Don't tell them to back off of other people unless it's *really* getting out of hand. I don't mean to make Fi-valuers sound like rude cunts, but it's something that is naturally annoying to a Fe valuer...

"6. How can someone appeal to an Fe primary/creative? What are some things that one might say that makes an Fe primary/creative feel comfortable or appreciated? Things one should avoid saying?"

Talk about how the people were in an objective-ish way. "Wow, I was really surprised at how nice everybody was at comic con this year!" Instead of pointing out something incredibly specific that you liked or disliked. You can even say "Whoa I hated the carnival this year. The people were so boring and rude." Avoid using specific, precise comments about what you like/love in others. It makes a Fe valuer think you're being unnecessarily rude for no good reason.


7. "How might Fi be utilized to help someone else?" By showing people that they need to understand that not everybody is one big happy family. You need to make choices and distinctions of where you value your time & energy.

8. "How might Fe be utilized to help someone else?" People need to understand that not everybody is out to get you, and you don't need to attack others with your opinions/viewpoints/arguements. The quickest way to get somebody to like you is to be nice yourself, no matter how 'fake' that may feel to you.

Thanks for answering the questions, BulletsAndDoves. :thumbsup:

Fi: sentimental
Fe: passionate

this will probably be called wrong but it sort of registers this way in my mind.

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Originally Posted by labocat

Fi: sentimental
Fe: passionate

this will probably be called wrong but it sort of registers this way in my mind.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrjwaqZfjIY

you make a persuasive argument.

I've noticed that Fi users tend to be vague (I'm speaking more about EII's), while Fe users tend to almost always describe things with a lot of detail.

Do Fi/Ne types find the amount of detail Fe users tend to give (when describing situations or issues) unnecessary? How is this interpreted by the Fi/Ne valuer?

I often feel as though it's difficult for me to help my Fi/Ne valuing friends when they don't give me more information on what is going on. Do Fi/Ne valuers leave out details because they want me to question them more? Or is this just more how Fi mixed with Ne functions?

This brings me to my next question. Sometimes when I ask Fi/Ne valuers to clarify things that they mean, to try to show that I want to know what is going on and care about them, they seem to not like it.

I guess what I'm trying to ask is, what would an Fi/Ne user want me to do? What can I actually do to help them that will be useful to them?

Is it preferable to not ask questions and just stay away unless they come to you directly? (Because it seems that in particular, Delta Fi's are very independent as well... they may not come to talk to you about something at all unless you approach them.)

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Originally Posted by Clumsy

[B]This is not an "Fi is better than Fe because..." or "Fe is better than Fi because..." thread. It's just about pegging down what makes the two

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Still working on it :p

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Originally Posted by Clumsy

I've noticed that Fi users tend to be vague (I'm speaking more about EII's), while Fe users tend to almost always describe things with a lot of detail.

Do Fi/Ne types find the amount of detail Fe users tend to give (when describing situations or issues) unnecessary? How is this interpreted by the Fi/Ne valuer?

I often feel as though it's difficult for me to help my Fi/Ne valuing friends when they don't give me more information on what is going on. Do Fi/Ne valuers leave out details because they want me to question them more? Or is this just more how Fi mixed with Ne functions?

This brings me to my next question. Sometimes when I ask Fi/Ne valuers to clarify things that they mean, to try to show that I want to know what is going on and care about them, they seem to not like it.

I guess what I'm trying to ask is, what would an Fi/Ne user want me to do? What can I actually do to help them that will be useful to them?

Is it preferable to not ask questions and just stay away unless they come to you directly? (Because it seems that in particular, Delta Fi's are very independent as well... they may not come to talk to you about something at all unless you approach them.)

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Bump. Any input on this from anyone?

Um, well....I find that I'm just not good at explaining things, personally. I do tend to be very vague, and I get bored when people go on and on about the details of a situation when the general situation is what is important.
I may not be specific because I find that it's not important. I am only specific enough to describe the time in relation to other events...to give a general gist of the situation in how it affects other things that have happened since then, or something...and the actual situation. But I never get too detailed. I wish I could tell you why I am not specific though. :/

I do get sorta..bored..when people go on an on about the details if they are unimportant.
I don't mind being asked to clarify, but I will often not be sure what else to include...if that makes sense.

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Originally Posted by fenryrr

Um, well....I find that I'm just not good at explaining things, personally. I do tend to be very vague, and I get bored when people go on and on about the details of a situation when the general situation is what is important.
I may not be specific because I find that it's not important. I am only specific enough to describe the time in relation to other events...to give a general gist of the situation in how it affects other things that have happened since then, or something...and the actual situation. But I never get too detailed. I wish I could tell you why I am not specific though. :/

I do get sorta..bored..when people go on an on about the details if they are unimportant.
I don't mind being asked to clarify, but I will often not be sure what else to include...if that makes sense.

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Thanks for the reply, fenryrr. :) So it's more about the general idea of the situation that you want to convey?

Maybe Fi/Ne types are just better at filling in these details on their own when others tell them stories (so they naturally don't feel the need to provide as much detail themselves)? Or perhaps the details really just do not matter in the grand scheme of the situation... what matters more is the way you feel (Fi) towards the situation and connect it to other things in time, as you said?

I've noticed IEI's will sometimes give a lot of detail when explaining things (at times to the point of being unnecessary), but they usually do this because they feel they need to include this amount of detail in the story in order for it to make sense to others. It's almost like they want to recreate the experience as honestly as possible, so that their listeners can see the full picture of it.

Anyone else have insights into this?

i think Fe is qualitative detail... but since qualitative distinctions are very subtle i think this tends to take on an even more "detail-ish" character.

Fi is sort of like a qualitative bottom-line or core statement, something that combines a lot of observables into one without explaining how exactly the epistemics of the process fold out. i.e. you state a qualitative fact without it's justification, as if saying "take my word on it".

qualitative means expressed in terms of adjectives. of any qualitative fact you can ask "how much so?" and get a quantitative fact as an answer.

for example:
qualitative - it is cold
how could is it?
quantitative - it is -10 degrees centigrade

F = qualitative
T = quantitative

Fe say that they are Christian; FeSi hedonistic - senses, going to parties etc.
Fi Live in a Christian manner (I'm not talking about flashing around your Christian card and hollier than art thou representations of Christianity; I'm talking about I don't walk around saying anything about my religion, I act in a Christian way -being warm, kind to people, being generous, caring, open hearted, giving, altruistic) ; FiNe non hedonistic

Major distinction between Fe and Fi is that Fi is not wrapped up in the beliefs of the group as Fe is because Fe is an Extraverted Ethical type; I have independent beliefs. Fe gets it's ethics, beliefs of values in terms of right and wrong, from it's society or group and sometimes struggles, has an internal conflict with that and isn't able to separate the feelings that they attach to what they want to be like from what the group wants them to be like, hence they need an independent thinker :Ti: who is their dual, to tell them which things to have feelings for and not.

Take sex for FeSi; being headons, they love sex but if they are a devote Catholic, then they have an internal emotional struggle with what to do; do they stay true to their Catholic society which forbids them to have premarital sex or do they go with their hedonistic cravings? This is a question that only :Ti: can sort out for them, but if it isn't sorted out, their internal thoughts with this will always be conflicted.

You might ask now, what would I do? My personal and subjective high morals are aside from my traditional Armenian Christian Orthodox religion, the same as the one dictated by the Catholic in the case of premarital sex, which is to refrain until you get married. However, sex is not an immoral thing unless it is done without an emotional component (I'm not a fan of casual sex because relationships are holy to me); my thought about what my society thinks are already sorted out, unlike that of Fe base types, and that is I COULD GIVE A DAMN WHAT THEY THINK.

Religion to me is to have love, family, to care for people. No amount of society's representation can take my personal subjective viewpoint away no matter how many members there are in a society because I'm not an extravert and my beliefs are not made on what others will think and feel about me.

Maritsa is Armenian!!!

Cool, my best friend is Armenian. Where were you born? He was born in Baku, Azerbaijan. He then moved to Moscow as a war refugee and then to the USA.

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Originally Posted by Saberstorm

Maritsa is Armenian!!!

Cool, my best friend is Armenian. Where were you born? He was born in Baku, Azerbaijan. He then moved to Moscow as a war refugee and then to the USA.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armavir,_Armenia :)

I go to a liberal mainline protestant church. Abortion is ok, gay sex ok, pastors can cheat on their wives. It is pretty much no-holds-barred. Except porn, they are anti-porn. Our church is huge - it is a mega church with 18,000 people. Officially, the opinion is "everything is shades of gray." The church is totally Beta. It is called the United Methodist Church.

I have to edit out my funny stuff, otherwise it will come back to haunt me.

Now I understand Maritsa. You are Armenian. All Armenians argue like you. All this anti-Maritsa stuff can now end. She is Armenian! They are all identical to her. Really, Maritsa is very typical of Armenians!

She is not crazy, she is a foreigner!

http://youtu.be/Jr610HrpIvk i believe thats :Fe:

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Originally Posted by Saberstorm

Now I understand Maritsa. You are Armenian. All Armenians argue like you. All this anti-Maritsa stuff can now end. She is Armenian! They are all identical to her. Really, Maritsa is very typical of Armenians!

She is not crazy, she is a foreigner!

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...No, I've known Armenians, and not all of them have sub-100 IQs.

Fe types look to doing what is right by their society because they are extraverts. Morality comes from without. Struggle when what they desire to do is against society's expectations.
Fi types look to doing what is good despite of society, because they want to be good and live up to their personal subjective moral standards. Morality comes from within. Struggle when what they want to do is against their own expectations of the "perfect" image of moral standard.

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Originally Posted by Maritsa33

Fe types look to doing what is right by their society because they are extraverts. Morality comes from without. Struggle when what they desire to do is against society's expectations.
Fi types look to doing what is good despite of society, because they want to be good and live up to their personal subjective moral standards. Morality comes from within. Struggle when what they want to do is against their own expectations of the "perfect" image of moral standard.

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This is true in a way, Maritsa, but you need to understand the subtleties; if you did, you wouldn't word it like this.

Have you read Jung?

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Originally Posted by Gilly

This is true in a way, Maritsa, but you need to understand the subtleties; if you did, you wouldn't word it like this.

Have you read Jung?

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This is the closest she's ever come to adequately utilizing Jung's writing.

Fe seems to me to look at qualitative cause effect relations on a very shallow level of perception, i.e. when a certain action is performed, the person only looks at how it gets reacted to and doesn't contemplate deeply what reasons there are behind the reaction but simply keeps score of the reactions and evaluates the pragmatic expediency of action on that basis. that sort of thing does lead a person to adapt to the views of their environment a lot, but its a mistake to think that there is any identification with the views on the level of actual conviction.

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Originally Posted by labocat

Fe seems to me to look at qualitative cause effect relations on a very shallow level of perception, i.e. when a certain action is performed, the person only looks at how it gets reacted to and doesn't contemplate deeply what reasons there are behind the reaction but simply keeps score of the reactions and evaluates the pragmatic expediency of action on that basis. that sort of thing does lead a person to adapt to the views of their environment a lot, but its a mistake to think that there is any identification with the views on the level of actual conviction.

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This. I have a huge problem of judging people based on how they come across to me in a very immediate sense, and even when I try, I can't always shake my immediate judgment of a person, or even act in spite of it. I have a really strong "moral compass," in a way; if someone comes across to me as excessively selfish or unaware of others, there is a part of my brain that just blocks them out of my goodwill immediately. A lot of times I can get past it if I can have some exposure to the person, interact with them and kind of emotionally come up against them, feel them out more and see that they aren't "bad," or even just see something that's good or useful or promising about them. But it is a problem.

It's ironic, though; Fe PoLRs are rarely the main targets of my judgment. Typically it's Te or Fe dominants; they tend to send out the most stark "vibes" so I think it's usually more black or white with them.

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Originally Posted by Saberstorm

I go to a liberal mainline protestant church. Abortion is ok, gay sex ok, pastors can cheat on their wives. It is pretty much no-holds-barred. Except porn, they are anti-porn. Our church is huge - it is a mega church with 18,000 people. Officially, the opinion is "everything is shades of gray." The church is totally Beta. It is called the United Methodist Church.

I have to edit out my funny stuff, otherwise it will come back to haunt me.

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Contrast. "It's fine to be unfaithful in marriage, but porn and masturbation... just can't have that, can we?"

What is it like to be so in tune with those things that you like and dislike? I guess I'm just curious about what this feels like. Maybe this is a weird question to ask because I'm looking for someone to tell me what the experience is like, and Fi doesn't really operate that way.

Do you ever feel uncomfortable voicing your opinions/likes/dislikes despite it opposing with what others have said? Or... is it just the opposite? You feel very comfortable doing this?

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Originally Posted by Clumsy

I would love it if we could keep this thread going. I still have so many questions about Fi.

What is it like to be so in tune with those things that you like and dislike? I guess I'm just curious about what this feels like. Maybe this is a weird question to ask because I'm looking for someone to tell me what the experience is like, and Fi doesn't really operate that way.

Do you ever feel uncomfortable voicing your opinions/likes/dislikes despite it opposing with what others have said? Or... is it just the opposite? You feel very comfortable doing this?

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I want to answer your question. But every time I read it I get confused. I feel you're confused. In fact you're not so much asking a coherent question as simply putting your confusion out there. What do you want? Say it, straight up.

Your writing evokes a feeling in me. In that I understand it somewhat viscerally. I remember feeling my words were mixed up, that the question was down there somewhere, but I couldn't quite put it all together. So I would put my confusion out there. Except it's not really confusion. It's more looking for some kind of order. Or maybe a key. Like a catalyst.

But when you're looking for a catalyst, you're not necessarily leaving room for information in all its forms. If you truly want information, then sometimes you have to kind of stand back and give other people space in which to give it. I want to give you information, but every time I read your question I feel more scattered.

I think I'll try just answering what he said. Maybe that will help him to gather his thoughts...

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Originally Posted by Clumsy

What is it like to be so in tune with those things that you like and dislike? I guess I'm just curious about what this feels like. Maybe this is a weird question to ask because I'm looking for someone to tell me what the experience is like, and Fi doesn't really operate that way.

Do you ever feel uncomfortable voicing your opinions/likes/dislikes despite it opposing with what others have said? Or... is it just the opposite? You feel very comfortable doing this?

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You know what it's like to dislike something, right? Maybe you dislike punching yourself in the face? Drinking mustard straight out of the jar? Standing on your head and singing the Barney song backwards while clicking your heels together? (You've gotta dislike one of those.) Similarly, I'm sure you can think of something that you like in the same simple way (Eating cake? Certain music?). Then you can think about those things really, really hard, and that should approximate being in tune with what you like and dislike.

I think whether you feel comfortable voicing your opinion depends mainly on whether you think they will be taken well, and whether you want to cause the people around you to think the way you do (both the likelihood of a favorable response and the desire to convince others would be reasons to make yourself heard).

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Originally Posted by dolphin

I want to answer your question. But every time I read it I get confused. I feel you're confused. In fact you're not so much asking a coherent question as simply putting your confusion out there. What do you want? Say it, straight up.

Your writing evokes a feeling in me. In that I understand it somewhat viscerally. I remember feeling my words were mixed up, that the question was down there somewhere, but I couldn't quite put it all together. So I would put my confusion out there. Except it's not really confusion. It's more looking for some kind of order. Or maybe a key. Like a catalyst.

But when you're looking for a catalyst, you're not necessarily leaving room for information in all its forms. If you truly want information, then sometimes you have to kind of stand back and give other people space in which to give it. I want to give you information, but every time I read your question I feel more scattered.

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Hmmm... I guess I just want to know what it's like to interpret/respond to something in the world like an Fi valuer does?

My interpretation of Fe is that it is a constant experience (and impressions being made on the Fe valuer and those that are given the Fe) through feelings. Everything evokes some kind of emotional reaction, even if it's not outwardly displayed. It's not really an objective like or dislike, so much as it is pure joy or enthusiasm or passion or whatever you end up feeling. Then, that Fe valuer's emotional responses become how the Fe valuer measures if they like or dislike (which I guess is more like Fi) something.

If they feel bored or emotionally numb for example when they listen to a song, they might think to themselves, "I don't like this", based off of that lack of feeling they get when they hear it (but maybe this is just how it is for everyone?). They cannot feel something emotionally from the music in some way, so they do not like it. Regardless of the style of the song, the first thing that Fe valuer would most likely notice is how the music makes them feel, the experience of that music. In this way I think they can sometimes appear fickle because their emotions may change towards something given time (either because they themselves for some reason feel differently towards it, or others around them have changed their mind in some way, thus causing them to feel differently). Is this how Fi also would interpret something like music?

If someone around the Fe valuer does not like something, such as a song that the Fe valuer enjoys, that Fe valuer may feel guilty or upset for having a desire to listen to that song. This is especially true if that person is close to the Fe valuer (that person's opinion is highly valued). Thus the Fe valuer may grow to actually feel less pleasure or joy or whatever they originally felt when listening to a song that they previously enjoyed, simply because of that other person's opinion. This has been my experience anyways. How would an Fi valuer react to the same situation?

When you listen to a song, what are the first things you notice about that song? What goes through your mind? How do you know whether or not you like it?

I don't think my experience is much different than yours and its weird trying to explain something so visceral but I'll try.

the first thing I notice when I hear a song is the level of emotional or mental excitement it causes in me. whether it catches my attention or not. like how firm is its grab. and there is a period where I kind of let go and just listen, not evaluating, just letting it soak. Often it just ends here.

if for whatever reason it grabs me and continues its hold I might notice what kind of feeling I get from it - happy, indignant, wistful, etc. and there's also a noticing of what the song is "meant" to convey and taking note of the difference between that and how I actually do feel. not to adjust or judge, just to take note. Once I stop viscerally experiencing and start thinking, various things might come to mind - thoughts of the person who recommended it and why they might have liked it, imagining myself performing it, wondering what they would be like live, working out what the lyrics could mean, other bands they remind me of, whatever. nothing especially specific.

How much I like it mostly depends on the initial grab and hold. the level of excitement of any color it arouses in me. Unless the feeling is "Christ, this is awful." lol

When I first hear a song or see something, the first thing I notice is if I like it or not. It's the impression that counts. I need to feel that it's hmmm "mine". Lets say clothes or other things to buy. Maybe my brain performs the analysis quicker than I do so I just get the "like" and "dislike". Probably it's a mix of colour, style, fabrics etc.
When I meet sb for the first time I also know from the very beginning if I like the person or not. Of course it sometimes changes but I'd say in general either there is a connection or there isn't. I usually have very strong opinions on people's behaviour, on relationships and their needs and I'm not afraid to state them at all although I don't always do that. In smaller groups, with people I know - I always say what I think but when in presence of people I don't know so well or I don't feel so close to, I'm rather quiet, listen and save my judgement to myself or discuss it later with my close ones.
This is what I've learned with time. I learned not to be so judicious but it doesn't always work. I know that when something goes against my moral code I feel... I don't know. E.g. Somebody got something (lets say money) not in a right way, in a very comformist style. (e.g. a girl who was just looking for a rich, old guy and found one) I'm disgusted and I say what I think. It's just so wrong, I also feel it's so shallow, it's like how can she be happy, or maybe she's just poor and somebody hurt her before, the world doesn't have any sense etc. Some people just don't understand why I give it so much thought. I just try to judge it and understand the person and analyze the problem from many perspectives (like maybe I'm wrong - I wish I was wrong).
However, I still believe that under some circumstances most people would break their code...for each person is just a question of how long they can stick to their humanity (and I also question if it really makes sense - Think about concentration camps and wars). I'm so much against wars and fighting and I believe most people are. But still they exist and they just make angels of some, make devils of the others. They question the importance of feelings and survival, the sense of everything...

I'd probably be more likely to call an Fe-valuer I hate arrogant than self-centered

I'd probably be more likely to call an Fi-valuer I hate self-centered than arrogant.

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Originally Posted by Clumsy

Hmmm... I guess I just want to know what it's like to interpret/respond to something in the world like an Fi valuer does?

My interpretation of Fe is that it is a constant experience (and impressions being made on the Fe valuer and those that are given the Fe) through feelings. Everything evokes some kind of emotional reaction, even if it's not outwardly displayed. It's not really an objective like or dislike, so much as it is pure joy or enthusiasm or passion or whatever you end up feeling. Then, that Fe valuer's emotional responses become how the Fe valuer measures if they like or dislike (which I guess is more like Fi) something.

If they feel bored or emotionally numb for example when they listen to a song, they might think to themselves, "I don't like this", based off of that lack of feeling they get when they hear it (but maybe this is just how it is for everyone?). They cannot feel something emotionally from the music in some way, so they do not like it. Regardless of the style of the song, the first thing that Fe valuer would most likely notice is how the music makes them feel, the experience of that music. In this way I think they can sometimes appear fickle because their emotions may change towards something given time (either because they themselves for some reason feel differently towards it, or others around them have changed their mind in some way, thus causing them to feel differently). Is this how Fi also would interpret something like music?

If someone around the Fe valuer does not like something, such as a song that the Fe valuer enjoys, that Fe valuer may feel guilty or upset for having a desire to listen to that song. This is especially true if that person is close to the Fe valuer (that person's opinion is highly valued). Thus the Fe valuer may grow to actually feel less pleasure or joy or whatever they originally felt when listening to a song that they previously enjoyed, simply because of that other person's opinion. This has been my experience anyways. How would an Fi valuer react to the same situation?

When you listen to a song, what are the first things you notice about that song? What goes through your mind? How do you know whether or not you like it?

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Hmm, look like you got some better answers than mine. I'm still a little hung up on your writing style or something. It's like the third person is kind of messing things up. Are you describing what you experience when you listen to a song? Are you Fe?

I wrote something that might answer your question, though it may be a little dated. The entire thread is a pretty good read. http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...l=1#post683387

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I'd probably be more likely to call an Fe-valuer I hate arrogant than self-centered

I'd probably be more likely to call an Fi-valuer I hate self-centered than arrogant.

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I understand what you're going with this but you're oversimplifying things a bit. I'm an IEI. I'm good at both Fi and Fe. I value both actually, I just value Fe more. Fe is my creative function and Fi is my demonstrative function so I'm really good at both as those are both strong areas of the psyche. And so with me, I can be both too arrogant and too self-centered at times lol. Though if you really are my dual then you'd think of me as neither because my Fi demonstrative would cover up your Fi polr and my Fe creative would energize you. But that's really ideal and it's a lot more complicated that that with so many factors. An SLE and IEI wouldn't love each other at first sight unless they understand psychology so well that they bored out their own inner heart, which means they don't really understand it at all. Which means they would be forcing some concept of duality instead of feeling it with their own bodies. It's more of the appreciation that grows over time. I mean I highly doubt you came on this forum and instantly fell in love with my posts just because you're SLE and im IEI. If you did, please send me flowers and write romantic sonnets because I actually love that stuff.

IMO the only functions one doesn't really "value" are the Super Ego functions, in my case Te and Si.

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Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves

IMO the only functions one doesn't really "value" are the Super Ego functions, in my case Te and Si.

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Agree. I hate Se although Ti is no that bad - maybe because its my polr I somehow "enjoy" its good insight.

That makes some amount of sense. Your concept of the super ego functions is interesting. I'm going to let it roll around my brain for a while.

Example:
- Fi: "You hate me, Ti!"
- Ti: "No way, *you* piss me off!" :mad: (incorrectness)

- Fe: "I piss you off, Ti!"
- Ti: "That's right, Fe!" :love: (correctness)

The ideea is that in Fe, the preference "stands" (subjectively) in the object, in Fi it stands in the subject. "Beautiful", for example, is apparently Fe information, however it's not that easy. When something is beautiful through Fe, the beauty is in itself, in the object, so it ought universally be liked by everyone (beauty determines consensus). But trough Fi, it's the other way around, something is beautiful only if everyone finds it beautiful (consensus determines beauty). This divergence in views on the beautiful or the good creates a lot of misunderstanding between Fe and Fi valuers.

Bottom line, Fi sucks but retards hate Fe!

Okay, let me give you an example with Te. :)

Fe: "I piss you off, Te!"
Te: "So fucking what?" :mad: (obvious and useless fact)

Fi: "You hate me, Te!"
Te: "I technically do, Fi!" :love: (new and useful fact)

why does that explanation make me laugh uncontrollably irl.

because its HILARIOUS.

lungs, I intended no offense when I told you in the chat that you are ugly, I really meant it. That "14 inches to locks of love" didn't have an effect on me because I suffer from bullshit-sickness, my apologies.