On duality, marriage, and how much it really matters

For background, I'm married to my dual, and our marriage has been really good and easy and has had longevity.

But I know lots of people in non-dual marriages who also seem very happy and whose marriages have longevity.

I feel like duality makes my marriage easier, but on the other hand there are things unrelated to scoinics involved that make my marriage easy too - similar views on politics, religion, how to raise children, etc.

My friends who are in happy non-dual marriages talk about how they "work on" their marriages, by doing things like having regular date nights, spending certain amount of time each night talking about something other than their children, etc. My husband and I don't have to do anything like that or worry about it, but maybe their work is beneficial enough to make it even better than my easy dual marriage? I've only been in one marriage so I can't compare.

The one thing I do feel confident about is that duality is not the end-all-be-all in relationships. I feel like people should, when they're young and of dating age like so many people here are, go out into the world and just date and enjoy themselves, without so much focus on type. What if there is a wonderful relationship with a non-dual available that you miss? What if you end up with a dual with whom you have such different views on religion or politics that you just sit and argue all the time, albeit argue very well and effectively due to compatible communication styles? And what if you've mistyped yourself, or the other person you're dating or not dating based on Socionics? It all seems very risky to me.

(This is not based on any specific person. It's just a thought I had.)

I think duality is the basis of good compatibility, but it's not the only workable relationship. I'm not sure there are that many long term wonderful out of quadra relationships you can maintain without some major problems, especially at a really close psychological distances.

I mean some people think relationships have intrinsic value, I tend to find them mostly a big waste of time, it's probably somewhere in between. It's not hard to meet people within one's quadra and establish a relationship with them.

Imo find your dual, or someone you think is your dual, otherwise don't even consider soconics and just follow your heart.

You are happy, not becuase he's your dual, It's because he's SLI, the Universal Type.

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Originally Posted by Cyrano

You are happy, not becuase he's your dual, It's because he's SLI, the Universal Type.

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the swiss knife of types

Not saying this is necessarily true of any of the couples you know, Slacker, but imo it is not always easy to know how happy a "happy" couple is. A book called Uncoupling (sociological case studies) describes in detail a pattern I've observed to be true. A couple bound for divorce will at first not admit to themselves how dire things are. At some point, one or the other of them begins to articulate the reality to him/herself. Next, the person confides in someone else, but that person is usually outside the circle of people who regard him/her as a member of a couple ... can be a seemingly random person, or a lover. And so on.

Over the years, I've seen a lot of supposedly stable, loving marriages appear to dissolve overnight. But they seemed so happy, people say.

I've seen that too. More often I think I've seen the "doth protest too much" thing though, where someone will go on and on, like over the top, about how wonderful and thoughtful and romantic her husband is, and continually gush, and then suddenly they'll break up.

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Originally Posted by Cyrano

the swiss knife of types

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I like that.

Another thing, whatever value there is to Socionics will exist regardless of whether you are focused on it and working toward it anyway. You will be naturally drawn to certain people, will naturally find some people easier to get along with, etc. If you just date and enjoy yourself, it doesn't mean you won't meet a dual. And if you do focus on socionics, it doesn't mean you will.

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Originally Posted by Slacker

I've seen that too. More often I think I've seen the "doth protest too much" thing though, where someone will go on and on, like over the top, about how wonderful and thoughtful and romantic her husband is, and continually gush, and then suddenly they'll break up.

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Yeah, the doth-protesters are always interesting. I'm not remotely anti-PDA, but do you really need to give your SO a giant sloppy fawning kiss and proclaim your love before you run every single small errand etc.? :\

I think this pattern of denial can apply to more low-key couples, too, but it's just not quite as jarring to observe.

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Originally Posted by Slacker

Another thing, whatever value there is to Socionics will exist regardless of whether you are focused on it and working toward it anyway. You will be naturally drawn to certain people, will naturally find some people easier to get along with, etc. If you just date and enjoy yourself, it doesn't mean you won't meet a dual. And if you do focus on socionics, it doesn't mean you will.

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That's true. I know that the one time I tried to apply socionics and date someone who was supposed to be socionically compatible it was weird. I didn't even like him, but had this crazy idea that it might work anyway, lol. That obviously crashed and burned. In general, I think people should be a little more relaxed about all of it. That's true whether they're trying to find the perfect socionics fit with someone, or some other idealistic measure. Perfection can only be admired from afar, as a standard that no person can live up to, and if that's what your heart is set on (either in a person or a relationship) you can only expect disappointment.

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Originally Posted by Slacker

What if there is a wonderful relationship with a non-dual available that you miss?

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It also depends on how aware people are of their own reactions and how much experience they have of relationships so they can compare. I have a hard time dating non-duals nowadays because I painfully feel the incompatibility between us, it is uncomfortable and something is lacking. I mean just as a feeling, regardless of what socionics says. I can easily stop thinking about this socionics stuff when dating someone, but I cannot turn off my own awareness, at least not as easily. After all, socioincs predicts my own subjective reactions quite well. In that sense it is not socionics vs. just-follow-your-heart. Because they are often the same.

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What if you end up with a dual with whom you have such different views on religion or politics that you just sit and argue all the time, albeit argue very well and effectively due to compatible communication styles?

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This is of course possible. And I know lots of ILEs whom I am not particularly fond of. Duality is just one factor, but an important one. It's not like I am going after each dual I meet. But socionics gives me a good hint of whom I should try to get to know better. And it gives me great hope.

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And what if you've mistyped yourself, or the other person you're dating or not dating based on Socionics? It all seems very risky to me.

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Here again, it's not a matter of my feelings vs. socionics. They often go hand in hand. I meet an ILE, I type her ILE and I discover that I like being with her. Very often things go this way. If for some reason I dont' like being with her, then of course I wont date her. I would never date someone just because I think she is my dual, but often when I like to date someone she IS my dual. Socionics just confirms my own feelings again and again.

As I said to Slacker: I've been dating duals since I was 13. I'm socionically d000000med!

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Originally Posted by FDG

I've been dating duals since I was 13. I'm socionically d000000med!

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Your life must be a burning hell of pain. :indifferent2:

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Originally Posted by MegaDoomer

Your life must be a burning hell of pain. :indifferent2:

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Seriously, all those duals? What could be worse?

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Originally Posted by Nowisthetime

It also depends on how aware people are of their own reactions and how much experience they have of relationships so they can compare. I have a hard time dating non-duals nowadays because I painfully feel the incompatibility between us, it is uncomfortable and something is lacking. I mean just as a feeling, regardless of what socionics says. I can easily stop thinking about this socionics stuff when dating someone, but I cannot turn off my own awareness, at least not as easily. After all, socioincs predicts my own subjective reactions quite well. In that sense it is not socionics vs. just-follow-your-heart. Because they are often the same.



This is of course possible. And I know lots of ILEs whom I am not particularly fond of. Duality is just one factor, but an important one. It's not like I am going after each dual I meet. But socionics gives me a good hint of whom I should try to get to know better. And it gives me great hope.



Here again, it's not a matter of my feelings vs. socionics. They often go hand in hand. I meet an ILE, I type her ILE and I discover that I like being with her. Very often things go this way. If for some reason I dont' like being with her, then of course I wont date her. I would never date someone just because I think she is my dual, but often when I like to date someone she IS my dual. Socionics just confirms my own feelings again and again.

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I totally agree. And I have to confirm that from my own experience once you've had a significant positive experience with duality, it's hard to go for something else.

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Originally Posted by Director Abbie

Seriously, all those duals? What could be worse?

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It's like eating a bowl of Lucky Charms with only marshmallow pieces in it. [/americanculture]

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Originally Posted by MegaDoomer

Your life must be a burning hell of pain. :indifferent2:

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yeah seriously. Each breakup must be horribly painful...

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Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon

yeah seriously. Each breakup must be horribly painful...

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Well, it could have been horrible every single time, but not necessarily. Good and bad relationships can in a rather good way, this depends on how it ends. (I mean without too many quarrels.)

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Originally Posted by MegaDoomer

Your life must be a burning hell of pain. :indifferent2:

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If there is a type that plays hard to get, it's ESI.

OK well I'm pretty sure FDG knows I wasn't saying you should avoid dating your dual.

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Originally Posted by MegaDoomer

Your life must be a burning hell of pain. :indifferent2:

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Indeed, especially from April to October, it can get pretty hot and sweaty in Italy.

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yeah seriously. Each breakup must be horribly painful...

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Eh, no, not really. With 2 of them we were really young and break-ups happen for futile reasons at that age (between 13 and 17). Another one was crazy, while one went to live abroad permanently short after we started dating, so in both cases there was some pain but definitely manageable. The last one I'm still dating since 4 yrs half.

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If there is a type that plays hard to get, it's ESI.

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What. They're among the only types that directly respond yes or no if you directly ask them out. How can that be hard to get.

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Originally Posted by FDG

Indeed, especially from April to October, it can get pretty hot and sweaty in Italy.

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That's exactly what I was talking about. :) Heat kills.

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Originally Posted by Slacker

My husband and I don't have to do anything like that or worry about it, but maybe their work is beneficial enough to make it even better than my easy dual marriage? I've only been in one marriage so I can't compare.

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Slacker, I think my perspective may be of BENEFIT to you. XD Har har har. :P

Certainly spending more time working on the relationship would strengthen it! Kind of like the sports motto: "Hard work beats talent, if the talent fails to work hard." --> Hard work beats natural compatibility, if the natural compatibility fails to work hard.

Maintaining any kind of relationship takes some amount of time, and effort. Generally, duality just takes less time than others. But certainly, if you put more time in, the relationship would get stronger, no matter what kind of natural compatibility exists. And non-duals putting in more time, would find the relationship stronger and more fulfilling, then duals who don't.

In the duality description, it says, maintaining a dual relationship is less time-consuming, so that each person may spend more time on their own interesting activities. Do you want to spend more time on your own activities, or more time into the relationship? Do you want a stronger relationship? What do you want? Are you just speculating why non-dual relationships are stronger? If the last question is what you're looking for, it's simply because they've put more time into it.

Do dumb kids who work hard, and study more, outperform smart kids? ALL THE TIME! Do hardworking, untalented people, get ahead of lazy, talented people in life? ALL THE TIME!

Hope this benefits ya. ;)

So to answer the title of the thread, I think duality is one factor, and it helps, but how much does it matter? Overall, I'd say not very much. Finding someone similar in looks, age, background, views, maturity, intelligence, work ethic, goals in life, etc. etc., as you alluded to, is all very important as well.

/THREAD ... ? :D

I'd also generally agree, naturally dating around to find someone you like is the best way to go. What was the statistic? Over 40% of marriages are duality, and over 70% are same quadra... with the vast majority of people, 99%+, knowing nothing about socionics, but just subconsciously finding who they're most comfortable with, and being honest with themselves.

Marriage doesn't matter. Sex and love matters. Go out there and find your 'dual'

Ive experienced bad & good shit with duals but no religious disputes so far. :o

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Originally Posted by walker31

Ive experienced bad & good shit with duals but no religious disputes so far. :o

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You gota uncover all your demons. LoL

After spending time with duals, I start to resent hot females who were not Infantile in romantic nature (Victims, especially).

There was this particular EIE who was rather refined. She was dressed in black; black dress, a cute black belt, black high-heeled shoes (about 3.5-inch at least, no platform). She had dyed blond hair, was asian, fine facial features. Probably the perfect girl for Beta STs out there.

She didn't smell right though. Her hair was not dyed in a pleasant manner (too artificially yellow, streaks of dark brown may help even out the tone... it'll be great if she used darker yellow as well), there were varicose veins behind her knees (sign of repressed anger), kept fidgeting her legs in an impatient manner, too much make-up, fake eye-lashes; disgusting. She has Si-PoLR, clearly.

I don't suppose a Beta ST will care about this though. She really seems like a prize to be won, all dolled up, dressed up, held herself in an upright and impressive manner (not in an elegant or graceful manner though, like Delta NFs), and drew the attention of many guys (including me).

After staring her down, my suspicions were confirmed: I will not deign to make love with a woman such as her. Hence while duality is an important factor, lack of conflictor-ship or opposing-quadra-ship might be actually more important. Reduce pain, firstly, then talk about pleasure.

I don't agree. I'm on the opposite viewpoint. Find your dual and get married before someone else does. I don't want "work" in a relationship; it should come naturally and not feel like "work"; "work" feels like another job and I don't want my home (a place of comfort) to be like a job.

*works on my next gameplay strategy*

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Originally Posted by Maritsa33

I don't agree. I'm on the opposite viewpoint. Find your dual and get married before someone else does. I don't want "work" in a relationship; it should come naturally and not feel like "work"; "work" feels like another job and I don't want my home (a place of comfort) to be like a job.

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I feel the same way.

Though if i can't have a dual, i'd be ok with a few other intertypes... (activity, identity maybe)

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Originally Posted by Slacker

Another thing, whatever value there is to Socionics will exist regardless of whether you are focused on it and working toward it anyway. You will be naturally drawn to certain people, will naturally find some people easier to get along with, etc. If you just date and enjoy yourself, it doesn't mean you won't meet a dual. And if you do focus on socionics, it doesn't mean you will.

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I think if it turns out that Socionics is in fact true, then people would naturally follow their hearts by being with their dual. If people are following their hearts and they continually pick a non dual over a dual, after interacting with them, then it throws the whole theory out the window.

I think Socionics can be used as a tool to help your head make sense of your heart.

I can see where you are coming from, that just because someone is a dual, doesn't necessarily mean he will be good for you. I recently broke up with my dual. We had a lot of issues before we got together. I thought, because I read that duality is supposed to be healing and helpful for personal growth, (and it did correct a lot of my faults, I wouldn't have learned the lessons he taught me from any other type of person) but it made me overlook a lot of the bad stuff. It may have given me false hope that things would change. I'm still not sure if things will turn good in the end. Or if things are just too fucked up to ever be reconciled. I've done all the growing and healing so far. The question now stands, will my dual grow up, so things can have a chance of working out? We'll just have to wait and see.

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Originally Posted by Maritsa33

I don't agree. I'm on the opposite viewpoint. Find your dual and get married before someone else does. I don't want "work" in a relationship; it should come naturally and not feel like "work"; "work" feels like another job and I don't want my home (a place of comfort) to be like a job.

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Maritsa, let's not confuse "work" with "effort". Any relationship requires some level of effort to be successful. I don't want to be rude, but want to see you happy; so I will say. Maybe that's why previous relationships for you have not worked out in the past, because you expect everything to be perfect?

I don't know everything, and maybe that's over the line. But I DO know you come here often, brag about how your dating a new dual, and then, after 1-2 things go wrong, you breakup, and say they weren't your dual after all, or they're this and that. Maybe if you expected things to be less than perfect, you'd appreciate some of the little, unimportant things that normally drive you crazy, and you'd be happier, and make things able to work better in your relationships.

EoP and Wawa,

If say all 3 of us were wrong about our typing, will you still believe in the concept of duality, despite not knowing your type, or the other person's type?

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Originally Posted by Reuben

EoP and Wawa,

If say all 3 of us were wrong about our typing, will you still believe in the concept of duality, despite not knowing your type, or the other person's type?

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Well, if I typed myself wrong and it turned out my dual wasn't my dual. I would ask myself, then wtf was all that about? Why were both our feelings so intense? It was the sheer intensity of the relationship that made me buy into duality. Intensity, and the fact that it turned out, he was right about everything. I was right about everything he was doing wrong too. It worked both ways. It seems like it is all too much of a coincidence for it to mean nothing.

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Originally Posted by Reuben

EoP and Wawa,

If say all 3 of us were wrong about our typing, will you still believe in the concept of duality, despite not knowing your type, or the other person's type?

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My take on this (and believe me the thought has crossed my mind) is that duality is such a unique interrelationship and interaction, that when it's duality, you KNOW it's duality. Like your life suddenly gets a lot easier, and there is mutual understanding almost without need for words (I say "almost" because I'm not sure since i haven't asked the duals what they think i'm thinking yet. I will once i get close enough to one to ask such a thing). It really does feel like the dual is mind reading you, and vice versa.

So if you've experienced duality with someone, i feel that you are duals of some kind, you just need to figure out which pair.

So yes I do believe in the concept of duality.


Side note: you can have some inklings of duality in semi-duality and illusionary relationships too per my understanding, but once you spend a significant amt of time interacting with people of these relationships to you, you start getting bothered/offended/annoyed by some things that you care about a lot. Of course in duality there is also the potential for hurting each other (sometimes a lot... believe me, I've been there...) but it's not because they're annoying or seem selfish.

From what i've gathered, in duality the hurtfulness usually stems from miscommunication of some sort (in particular when the people involved have been undualized for a while) or from defense mechanisms and doubts developed also from being undualized too long, or from NTR reasons like differences in religion, culture, life direction, etc, or non mutual feelings. Even in duality where romance is not involved, each dual has the capability of profoundly influencing each other, without really intending to.

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Originally Posted by Mountain Dew

Maritsa, let's not confuse "work" with "effort". Any relationship requires some level of effort to be successful. I don't want to be rude, but want to see you happy; so I will say. Maybe that's why previous relationships for you have not worked out in the past, because you expect everything to be perfect?

I don't know everything, and maybe that's over the line. But I DO know you come here often, brag about how your dating a new dual, and then, after 1-2 things go wrong, you breakup, and say they weren't your dual after all, or they're this and that. Maybe if you expected things to be less than perfect, you'd appreciate some of the little, unimportant things that normally drive you crazy, and you'd be happier, and make things able to work better in your relationships.

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Huh? I've never broken up with my boyfriend. WTH?

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Originally Posted by Maritsa33

Huh? I've never broken up with my boyfriend. WTH?

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He means your previous boyfriends, Einstein.

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Originally Posted by Typhon

He means your previous boyfriends, Einstein.

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She hasn't broken up with them either. :shifty:

I hope it's visible and clear how some here are strategic and some are tactical types. The strategics will try to have a goal, while the tactical will tell you to modify things as you experience life. :) This is quite a common way for conflict relations to attract one another and hold each other at interest and also another reason why activity relations start so easily too.

My point wasn't that duality isn't easier, because it is. I guess I just would like to see people being realistic about the limitations of this theory. There is something to Socionics, and there is something to duality, but this theory has serious flaws, and it isn't a good idea to get overly invested in it.

So, are you advising that people marry other types or compatibilities?

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Originally Posted by Maritsa33

So, are you advising that people marry other types or compatibilities?

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Where did you get that?

I'm advising that people just date without worrying about Socionics. The theory is useful but it is also flawed, and it's too easy to mistype people, and IMO it's unhealthy to get too invested in it.

Slacker, you said that duality is easy. That's a pretty strong statement, don't you think? Being a conscientious friend, I would help someone find a dual because of that very statement.

Why would I want, in my good conscience, to help someone find an uneasy relations, if I were a well meaning person?

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Originally Posted by Maritsa33

Slacker, you said that duality is easy. That's a pretty strong statement, don't you think? Being a conscientious friend, I would help someone find a dual because of that very statement.

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Irrelevant to what I said.

It's quite relevant, I'm afraid and one which you won't own up to unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by Maritsa33

It's quite relevant, I'm afraid and one which you won't own up to unfortunately.

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Not at all relevant. I said it's EASIER, but that doesn't necessarily mean BETTER, and people mistype each other all the time anyway so I wouldn't get too invested because it's risky. Whether it's easier is not relevant to anything else.

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Originally Posted by Slacker

Not at all relevant. I said it's EASIER, but that doesn't necessarily mean BETTER, and people mistype each other all the time anyway so I wouldn't get too invested because it's risky. Whether it's easier is not relevant to anything else.

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It's not better? If it wasn't better than why did you choose it?

*My new theory, perceptual/irrational types don't put meaning behind what they perceive.

I didn't know anything about socionics when I met my husband. I didn't choose duality, I chose him.

Not everyone has the kind of energy that you do. To go out and date random people until they feel that special fit. It's easier and a lot more effective to choose from duals. Eliminating your choices based on reasons outside of Socionics is key too.

Now that I think about it, this is a good example of why not to get too invested in this theory when you're dating. The first few times I went out with my now husband, things were a bit werid and I thought he didn't like me. I could have easily, had I known about Socionics, decided based on that he was LSI or something and that it was a waste of time to pursue it.

Demonstrating Ti isn't uncommon for an SLI. If you had gone by Socionics, than that would only mean that you didn't know how to type or to recognize a person's pronounced function, as all functions are present in every single individual. And you, being a perceptual type, would make sense that you captured or emphasized the person's subconscious functions more so than conscious because you perceive (look at) mere happenings.

I wasn't noticing Ti or looking for anything because I didn't know about socionics. We just didn't gel the first few dates, and people here seem to think duals are immediately best friends. If they assume they aren't duals because things aren't going how they expected, they could overlook something good. Stop over-analyzing everything.

I agree with you Slacker. First I was so immersed into socionics... I had to stop for 2 years (I banned myself from reading antyhing about that cause I knew it started being unhealthy). I also agree with you that it's just a theory with many many flaws some of which we are not aware of. The reality, however, confirms that socionics works. When it comes to feelings, I was for a few years with my INTj boyfriend even though I knew we were missmatched and reality confirmed that. I'm now with my SLI or LSE boyfriend and when I chose him I thought he was some other type but I just fell in love with him. You should fall in love with people, not with their types. You should trust your gut feeling, not the theory. The theory is here to confirm your feelings, not the other way round.

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Originally Posted by Slacker

Stop over-analyzing everything.

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They don't call them analysts for nothing...

I think Socionics could be helpful to think about in dating if you're someone whose compatibility antennae are not working all that well, for whatever reasons. Ideally, it'd be not a way to eliminate people from your life, but to help ensure that you are paying attention--that you are not overlooking the possibility of getting closer to someone who might be good for you.

For me socionics is very useful. I understand now why I get on with some people better and why with some I get on worse. It helps me not to get frustrated so much when I deal with some incompatible types. It also allows me to approach people ina way they should be approached :).
Still, I don't believe in types, just in people. I can find people of each type whom I like or don't like. I think each function can be "good" or "bad". And I like good Se and good Ti as much as I don't like bad Fi and bad Ne.

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I understand now why I get on with some people better and why with some I get on worse.

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There are only 3 reasons and they have nothing to do with socionics.

1) I
2) Me
3) Myself.

Or at least, that's how I see it.

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Originally Posted by snoreKill

Not saying this is necessarily true of any of the couples you know, Slacker, but imo it is not always easy to know how happy a "happy" couple is. A book called Uncoupling (sociological case studies) describes in detail a pattern I've observed to be true. A couple bound for divorce will at first not admit to themselves how dire things are. At some point, one or the other of them begins to articulate the reality to him/herself. Next, the person confides in someone else, but that person is usually outside the circle of people who regard him/her as a member of a couple ... can be a seemingly random person, or a lover. And so on.

Over the years, I've seen a lot of supposedly stable, loving marriages appear to dissolve overnight. But they seemed so happy, people say.

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well said and exactly so. if the couple is not really all that happy, they will lie to themselves, mostly out of denial. the longer the marriage the higher the denial level. regardless of type, one becomes interdependent with a spouse to the point that it is difficult to imagine what life would be like without them. this invokes fear, which drives the denial.

with one spouse opening up to someone outside the marriage, the boundary of the marriage is violated. the spouse who opens up gradually is able to reduce their denial via the support of another person, making the disengagement from the marriage easier and less fear invoking. the tendency is for this partner in the marriage to blame all problems experienced on the spouse.

the break up of a marriage is wholly different than other relationship break ups. the bible is right: and so two shall become one.

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Originally Posted by Slacker

Where did you get that?

I'm advising that people just date without worrying about Socionics. The theory is useful but it is also flawed, and it's too easy to mistype people, and IMO it's unhealthy to get too invested in it.

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yes! what happens naturally is your kind of weed out opposing quadra folks naturally since it's like oil and water. socionics mostly confirms things that have already happened.....it describes what ends up happening naturally anyway. since you could be happy with a non dual, why not try that and use socionics to work out any differences that you might have?

I'd say, based on my personal experience - healthy people are attracted to their duals and they feel great in each other's company. However, some people are less healthy and tend to choose people who are very incompatible with them (most often also unhealthy types). People may blame themselves and believe they can change everything. I hope to see happy conflictor couple one day, that would prove love is beyond everything :). However, from what I've seen so far, duality, mirrors (I haven't seen much of activity) and identity are the best relationships, although non-unbreakable.

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Originally Posted by snoreKill

I think Socionics could be helpful to think about in dating if you're someone whose compatibility antennae are not working all that well, for whatever reasons. Ideally, it'd be not a way to eliminate people from your life, but to help ensure that you are paying attention--that you are not overlooking the possibility of getting closer to someone who might be good for you.

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You mean, essentially, not passing the person up for superficial reasons.

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Originally Posted by Maritsa33

You mean, essentially, not passing the person up for superficial reasons.

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No, that is not what I mean.

I don't get this whole obsessing over duals thing. People are not their types, as everyone should know, but not very many seem to completely understand it. Ok, I'm not that experienced with Socionics yet, but to me it is a nice game to kill time with, and that's the way I want to keep it. The fact that someone is your dual/conflictor/whatever doesn't tell shit about that individual and your potentional relationship with him/her. It seems like some people somehow escape their insecurities by letting their type define themselves and their relationships. :8* My best friend is supposed to be conflicting with me, and the very person who made me change my host family during high school exchange was my dual. So yeah.

Agarina, are you sure you typed yourself correctly? My cousin is my conflictor and we get on well although I can see how she gets on better with her husband, who's her dual. It's like we like each other, we like talking and spending time together and we respect each other, but I'm not sure if that relationship would exist if we weren't family. Obsessing with duals is stupid of course but what I'm trying to do is making some kind of research, observing and checking how the things work in practice. I make my own conclusions. Socionics helped me to understand people and their motivations better.
But I totally agree with you that people are not their types. I know many people of each type and they can be different as people.

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Originally Posted by Agarina

I don't get this whole obsessing over duals thing. People are not their types, as everyone should know, but not very many seem to completely understand it. Ok, I'm not that experienced with Socionics yet, but to me it is a nice game to kill time with, and that's the way I want to keep it. The fact that someone is your dual/conflictor/whatever doesn't tell shit about that individual and your potentional relationship with him/her. It seems like some people somehow escape their insecurities by letting their type define themselves and their relationships. :8* My best friend is supposed to be conflicting with me, and the very person who made me change my host family during high school exchange was my dual. So yeah.

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Maybe one or both of you is mistyped...and that's why socionics doesn't seem to be working for you. ;)

I agree that socionics is not everything, and there are many NTR issues that can affect a relationship, but I do think socionics is onto something. I disagree with your statement that socionics doesn't say sh*t about relationship potential. If you have your types right, it actually can be quite predictive of how close you can get (psychologically) with someone. I learned that the hard way.

Of course, for example, if you meet a dual, you may not be able to get too close for a variety of NTR reasons, but the potential is there. If you are forced to work together in a setting where the NTR factors are irrelevant, the duality does come out and even if you aren't friends the work is easy, smooth, without friction; like a well-oiled machine.

On the flip side, if you meet a conflictor or supervisor/ee and hit it off well, there is definitely the potential for things to go very wrong over the long term and depending on the psychological distance of the relationship. For example, I was really good friends with a socionic supervisor at work for about a year (like, we would chat for hours about life, family, superficial things) before the friendship totally blew up in my face, which incidentally happened shortly after we started working much closer on a project together. And she was typed LII (by people on the forum) while we were still friends, much to my surprise and disbelief. Sure enough though, it played out as predicted as much as I didn't want it to.

If you are getting along with a conflictor here and there and not getting along with a dual here and there, that's to be expected. There are NTR issues. But if there is a pattern of generally not getting along with your dual and/or generally getting along easily with your conflictor, then IMO someone is mistyped.

Oh the other thing i want to mention about the conflictor relationship... You can actually be friends with a conflictor and admire them. The term "Conflictor" is a misnomer as you dont necessarily have outright conflict with conflictors, heck they seem superficially almost like duals; instead i've found socionic "conflict" to be more a relationship of mutual misunderstanding, which hurts a lot when you're close enough and can be extremely frustrating.

Case in point, I dont think i've ever had a fight with my conflictors on this forum. In fact, I barely interact with the LSIs here. And I tend to gloss over LSI posts, as the content tends to be somewhat irrelevant in my view. Boring might be another word to describe it, without insight (at least without insight interesting to me). As for LSI celebrities, I often find them very beautiful, attractive people.

Yeah but it depends on "psychological distance." I'm thinking IRL and relatively close relationships.

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Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon

Maybe one or both of you is mistyped...and that's why socionics doesn't seem to be working for you. ;)

I agree that socionics is not everything, and there are many NTR issues that can affect a relationship, but I do think socionics is onto something. I disagree with your statement that socionics doesn't say sh*t about relationship potential. If you have your types right, it actually can be quite predictive of how close you can get (psychologically) with someone. I learned that the hard way.

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Oh, I'm not saying socionics isn't working for me at all - with most of my relationships it actually works quite well. If it didn't, I probably wouldn't bother to write here. What I meant is that it is stupid to decide upon whether or not to get to know someone and/or how to interact with them because of their type/the intertype relation you're supposed to have with them. I've seen that happening and I think it's just fucked up. Slacker put it well;

[QUOTE ]If you are getting along with a conflictor here and there and not getting along with a dual here and there, that's to be expected. There are NTR issues. But if there is a pattern of generally not getting along with your dual and/or generally getting along easily with your conflictor, then IMO someone is mistyped. [/QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by Agarina

Oh, I'm not saying socionics isn't working for me at all - with most of my relationships it actually works quite well. If it didn't, I probably wouldn't bother to write here. What I meant is that it is stupid to decide upon whether or not to get to know someone and/or how to interact with them because of their type/the intertype relation you're supposed to have with them. I've seen that happening and I think it's just fucked up. Slacker put it well;

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If you are getting along with a conflictor here and there and not getting along with a dual here and there, that's to be expected. There are NTR issues. But if there is a pattern of generally not getting along with your dual and/or generally getting along easily with your conflictor, then IMO someone is mistyped.

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well that's funny that you're pointing that out to me, because Slacker essentially said the same exact thing i said.

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Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon

well that's funny that you're pointing that out to me, because Slacker essentially said the same exact thing i said.

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I must have missed something then. I don't think a "bad" intertype relation necessarily turns out bad at individual level. If that's not what you meant either then I guess we all agree. :content:

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Originally Posted by Agarina

I must have missed something then. I don't think a "bad" intertype relation necessarily turns out bad at individual level. If that's not what you meant either then I guess we all agree. :content:

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What i said was that a "bad" intertype might not manifest fully depending on psychological distance of the relationship. In which case it would seem that you're getting along well with a "bad intertype", but if you try to get closer things might start going sour. If you have a lot of NTR things in common that are bringing you closer together with a person of a "bad intertype" that makes it more likely that you might end up friends with that person and get along well, as you said. However, if you start increasing psychological proximity, it may not be so pleasant. Again, it's the POTENTIAL of the relationship that is being ESTIMATED by socionics. Nothing is set in stone.

My point ultimately was that saying "socionics doesn't predict sh*t" as you did, is an exaggeration as well; ime it actually does. That's not to say one should isolate oneself to interacting only with quadra-members and avoiding people from the opposing quadra altogether. I believe that it's actually healthy to interact with people of all types.

After being with a dual you

1) become more like them
2) become comfortable expressing your strenghts
3) attract more duals

the signs of duality are:

1) comfort
2) energy
3) laughter

There's no really good way to "attract" a dual; the only way to have a dual is to be ready for one, to be ready for a relationship, even if that's a friendship of duality because if all you're doing is trying to be alone, than you're not really ready to have anyone in your life, even if that person is a really important person.

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Originally Posted by Maritsa33

There's no really good way to "attract" a dual;

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Sure there is.
Don't act like someone else's dual.

Come now, what are you gonna do to the poor fellow, string him up by his calfs with a rope...heehee!!!

I think the way to attract a dual is to be natural, be yourself, and not overanalyze your behavior. Forget about Socionics and be natural and people who are naturally attracted to you will be.

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Originally Posted by FDG

What. They're among the only types that directly respond yes or no if you directly ask them out. How can that be hard to get.

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Because "no!" might also mean: "try harder!"

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Originally Posted by Mountain Dew

Slacker, I think my perspective may be of BENEFIT to you. XD Har har har. :P

Certainly spending more time working on the relationship would strengthen it! Kind of like the sports motto: "Hard work beats talent, if the talent fails to work hard." --> Hard work beats natural compatibility, if the natural compatibility fails to work hard.

Maintaining any kind of relationship takes some amount of time, and effort. Generally, duality just takes less time than others. But certainly, if you put more time in, the relationship would get stronger, no matter what kind of natural compatibility exists. And non-duals putting in more time, would find the relationship stronger and more fulfilling, then duals who don't.

In the duality description, it says, maintaining a dual relationship is less time-consuming, so that each person may spend more time on their own interesting activities. Do you want to spend more time on your own activities, or more time into the relationship? Do you want a stronger relationship? What do you want? Are you just speculating why non-dual relationships are stronger? If the last question is what you're looking for, it's simply because they've put more time into it.

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I need to respectfully disagree here. More time put into a relationship does NOT necessarily equal a stronger relationship. Oh that it did! See, relationships do require work but that work ought to be productive, as you say. I know several marriages right now where that's simply not the case. One is a conflict marriage, the other is supervisory. After awhile it becomes apparent that the only way to live peacefully with this person is to keep a certain distance. Don't even TRY to get closer. You kind of learn how to do this and can certainly MAKE things work that way if you're willing to have that kind of marriage. But it's not a simple formula of more time=better marriage.

Just sayin.

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Originally Posted by octopuslove

Haha, I thought my bf was SLI, initially. FAIL. :frustrated:

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I've mistaken SLE for SLI and vice versa. :)

What redbaron says is correct, socionics basically predicts this, some relationships, including relationships like activity and mirror requires a certain amount of distance, otherwise there will be conflict.

I just don't see the "magic" of duality in real life for me. I'm definitely attracted to LSEs, but meh, haven't found that many who aren't tools or who I can actually trust. I like what Slacker said about just having fun and going out with people regardless of their type.

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Originally Posted by octopuslove

Haha, I thought my bf was SLI, initially. FAIL. :frustrated:

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What made you think that initially, and how did you realize he was another type later? (LSI? SLE?)

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Originally Posted by Lobo

I just don't see the "magic" of duality in real life for me. I'm definitely attracted to LSEs, but meh, haven't found that many who aren't tools or who I can actually trust. I like what Slacker said about just having fun and going out with people regardless of their type.

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I can't say that I disagree with you as I've had a similar experience with my duals. The magic really only comes into play once you're close enough, and that happened for me with just one dual, with whom i was forced to work with for long long shifts of really hard work. With the other dual i now know, it's been hard to GET close enough in the first place. I think that really is the big catch with duality.

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Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon

I can't say that I disagree with you as I've had a similar experience with my duals. The magic really only comes into play once you're close enough, and that happened for me with just one dual, with whom i was forced to work with for long long shifts of really hard work. With the other dual i now know, it's been hard to GET close enough in the first place. I think that really is the big catch with duality.

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I don't even know how to become close to one, it's like I feel incompatible psychologically. And, no, it's not a mistyping thing. I feel like calling them out for interpersonal stuff they do, and that doesn't seem like a nice relationship to be having.

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Originally Posted by Lobo

I don't even know how to become close to one, it's like I feel incompatible psychologically. And, no, it's not a mistyping thing. I feel like calling them out for interpersonal stuff they do, and that doesn't seem like a nice relationship to be having.

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I hear u, I hear u... the same thing has been happening for me with my duals. And well maybe part of the magic of duality is that i actually WILL feel comfortable enough to call them out on it. And when I do, nothing catastrophic happens. Maybe they're even influenced by that. But yes I hear u, I feel absolutely horrible about what i told them, before I find out that they've actually grown from what i said.

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Originally Posted by Lobo

I just don't see the "magic" of duality in real life for me. I'm definitely attracted to LSEs, but meh, haven't found that many who aren't tools or who I can actually trust. I like what Slacker said about just having fun and going out with people regardless of their type.

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I hear you. I have had a relationship with a dual before and I find it very hard to trust them, ESPECIALLY when they are left to their own devices for a period of time. It's hard to trust that they won't stuff up .... I mean it seems like they are oblivious to things that are obvious and important to me. I didn't like having to expel of this Ti on him, I didn't like becoming even more myself.

My ex dual makes attempts to indirectly get into contact with me and maybe I'm misreading his intentions but he is engaged (after only 6mnths with someone), why open that can of worms again for whatever reason he has. It's that kind of thing which made me realise we are so different. Dare I say I find it's easier to love identicals and I'm yet to find that same physical attraction to my identicals with my duals. Life is much more fun with activity partners over other relations. Living together could be a different story though!

duality is an idealization. Duals will end up running from eachothers problems, & thus running from eachother. Self actualization is necessary to achieve duality. If you are self actualized and you experience duality, it feels the same as the other relationships. You don't become self actualized through love, that's dependency issues and why you're so reliant on your mother and father, on daddy government and why you wear bear costumes and so fourth. So this is a bad question and it should be ignored.

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Originally Posted by crazedratPULSE

duality is an idealization. Duals will end up running from eachothers problems, & thus running from eachother. Self actualization is necessary to achieve duality. If you are self actualized and you experience duality, it feels the same as the other relationships. You don't become self actualized through love, that's dependency issues and why you're so reliant on your mother and father, on daddy government and why you wear bear costumes and so fourth. So this is a bad question and it should be ignored.

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what do you mean by "self-actualization"?

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Originally Posted by redbaron

I need to respectfully disagree here. More time put into a relationship does NOT necessarily equal a stronger relationship. Oh that it did! See, relationships do require work but that work ought to be productive, as you say. I know several marriages right now where that's simply not the case. One is a conflict marriage, the other is supervisory. After awhile it becomes apparent that the only way to live peacefully with this person is to keep a certain distance. Don't even TRY to get closer. You kind of learn how to do this and can certainly MAKE things work that way if you're willing to have that kind of marriage. But it's not a simple formula of more time=better marriage.

Just sayin.

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Wow, what a beautiful dual interaction between you and HLD; you speak to him with such mild manners, politeness, respect. I'm afraid I just discovered why my LSI boss and I don't really get along that well, because I don't speak to him like you would.

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Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon

what do you mean by "self-actualization"?

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I don't think he means anything, it seems as he's just talking out of his ass.

But on a more serious note, crazedrat, do you simply mean knowing yourself and understanding who you are first, before duality can work?

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Originally Posted by Agee

I don't think he means anything, it seems as he's just talking out of his ass.

But on a more serious note, crazedrat, do you simply mean knowing yourself and understanding who you are first, before duality can work?

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He's saying the notion of a dual is based on an incorrect notion in the first place, i.e. that we need some other to make us whole.

However, whether this is relevant to what really matters regarding duality is hard to say.

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Originally Posted by Artsu Tharaz

He's saying the notion of a dual is based on an incorrect notion in the first place, i.e. that we need some other to make us whole.

However, whether this is relevant to what really matters regarding duality is hard to say.

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Differentiation and specialization is about focusing on abilities into a narrow area, humans vs other animals are highly specialized and have highly specialized information processing. In the course of differentiation some traits can be sacrificed in order to more adequately focus on other traits.

Duality is not about making people whole, even with a dual we are still not whole, which is why people engage society even after meeting a dual, marrying them and what not. That's why there is a socion, but even that is not whole. People group together and organize themselves not only to feel whole(althrough this is a feeling that could be desirable), but also to engage in cooperative activity and towards tangible goals and rewards.

Duality may be more about finding the best possible person to reproduce with, and achieving a feeling of satisfaction and contentment, however it doesn't make you whole, it does however make you psychologically supported.

People may describe this desire in mystical and spiritual terms, like a emptiness inside, a void in one's heart, but it is very simple, it is a basic desire to have support in our weak areas and that's all it is. However, if it feels to magical to the individuals, by all means indulge in that feeling.

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Originally Posted by shakealittle

I hear you. I have had a relationship with a dual before and I find it very hard to trust them, ESPECIALLY when they are left to their own devices for a period of time. It's hard to trust that they won't stuff up .... I mean it seems like they are oblivious to things that are obvious and important to me. I didn't like having to expel of this Ti on him, I didn't like becoming even more myself.

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I noticed this with a dual actually. Sometimes they seem confident with their suggestive function but they are missing a lot of nuance of that function. I fear that they will run head-on into a wall (figuratively speaking) or create disasters for themselves.

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Originally Posted by Slacker

For background, I'm married to my dual, and our marriage has been really good and easy and has had longevity.

But I know 1. lots of people in non-dual marriages who also seem very happy and whose marriages have longevity.

I feel like 2. duality makes my marriage easier, but on the other hand there are things unrelated to scoinics involved that make my marriage easy too - similar views on politics, religion, how to raise children, etc.

My friends who are in 3. happy non-dual marriages talk about how they "work on" their marriages, by doing things like having regular date nights, spending certain amount of time each night talking about something other than their children, etc. My husband and I don't have to do anything like that or worry about it, but maybe their work is beneficial enough to make it even better than my easy dual marriage? I've only been in one marriage so I can't compare.

The one thing I do feel confident about is that duality 4. is not the end-all-be-all in relationships. I feel like people should, when they're young and of dating age like so many people here are, 5. go out into the world and just date and enjoy themselves, without so much focus on type. What if there is a wonderful relationship 6. with a non-dual available that you miss? 7. What if you end up with a dual with whom you have such different views on religion or politics that you just sit and argue all the time, albeit argue very well and effectively due to compatible communication styles? 8. And what if you've mistyped yourself, or the other person you're dating or not dating based on Socionics? It all seems very risky to me.

(This is not based on any specific person. It's just a thought I had.)

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1. This happens all the time. No problem, non issue.
2. The only reason that matters
3. Marriage counseling is for people who aren't compatible.
4. That depends on who you ask/there is no "end all be all" for anything ever anywhere
5. sounds like an extreme waste of time/completely uninteresting/not my idea of fun
6. I see no problem here. freindships/relationships, its all the same. those who have this problem may not limit themselves. just because you love/like someone doesn't mean you are compatible and should date. nor does it mean you should not date them.
7. the views become more similar in mature people. those views shouldn't matter.
8. Common effect of being an idiot

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Originally Posted by coagulate

The thought of living without a dual makes me very sad. If I had never found out about socionics, I'd be happier, but I have, and now I'm permanently sad and alone forever or else I have to sacrifice my religious beliefs.

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You really don't need a dual for a happy relationship. I had a better relationship with an SLE than with an SLI (although the dual relationship was easier). Really, forget that Socionics exists and go meet people.

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Originally Posted by metaphoriac

I used to freely meet people before I learned Socionics but now that I have, I can't forget it exists, and it's just a source of misery every day. I'm glad you had a good relationship with the SLE though. IEE-SLE is super ego and it was still good? So that gives me hope. :) Thank you :) :)

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Yes it was good and where it wasn't, it was not because of Socionics. It was not as effortless as the dual relationship, but more exciting (which I like).

Lol.