EIE-IEE Quasi-Identical Relations (ENFp & ENFj)

Hey all,

There is a girl at work who works in the adjacent call centre. She sometimes works near me and sits near me on weekends when our centres merge. Its really strange, she one day decided that she likes me. She said that she thinks that the other guys are boring and that im more interesting, but its funny i often see myself as quite boring. When i sit with her our dialogue is breif but funny i suppose.

The strange thing is, just recently she has made me feel really strange. She just called me and said that she misses me lol. She does stuff like that a bit i think she does it to make me shy. Its weird though, just in the way we chat there seems to be some tension, not sure what it is, not neccarily bad. She makes me a bit muddled :)

Anyway it probablly sounds like im infatuated with her but funnily enough im not. She is cute but never really thought of her that way. She also has a boyfriend she quite likes.

My question is, is this weird tension (its quite strong) due to the Quazi relation or more an ESFJ quality(i dont know much about them). Do they make good friends of ENFP?

Thanks ;)

Edit: Hmm i probablly have posted this in the Any Relations Category

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Originally Posted by meatburger

My question is, is this weird tension (its quite strong) due to the Quazi relation or more an ESFJ quality(i dont know much about them). Do they make good friends of ENFP?

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I think this tension is not unusual. ESFjs often manage to piss me off when I’m interacting with them, especially the males. It seems that they (at least some of them I have met) like to intrude in my personal life to rearrange things according to their own insights and/or making me feel uncomfortable. Everything I do seems to be not good enough for them, because they “know it better”. I think it’s the result of both relationship type and the particular personality. Can they make good friends of ENFp? Maybe, but I find it rather unlikely.

…and ESFj is your Benefactor. ENFj is your Quasi-identity partner.

Lol mate,

Thanks. I actually meant an ENFJ lol! :0)
I know this because ages ago i asked her to do a test and it came up as Quasi Identical as i read out our intertype relation to her.

She often says that she likes to stir people up, she is quite feisty hmm. Oh well haven't seen her for ages..

I see the 2 assymetric relations – supervision and benefit as the most tensed. Next comes the relations with members from the opposite quadra. My psychology teacher was a female ENFj. We were misunderstanding each others statements and intentions for the most part of the time, without realising that we actually meant the same. Quasi identicals see the same things from a different point of view... and the positive aspect is that these relations are not boring.

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ages ago

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:wink: months or years? :)

I would say she did the test about 4 months ago. Its interesting she happened to call through to the ESTP today and even he was like :oops: when she was talking to him a bit. He handled it better than me though. I just feel like i need to get her off the phone hehe. She talks in this sultry voice. I cant explain it its not like i dont like her just her voice / things she says are intense lol..

Hmm you dont like Benefit relations? A good mate of mine is an ENTJ, that would make him what my Benificiary? So if im right, because i have never understood these things that kinda puts him in a more powerful position? He will often pay me out in a joking kinda way but i just laugh. We do have some fun times just make sure you laugh it off and i handle it well. We dont really argue etc. I have never sucked up to him / thought he had the power though, although i respect him a lot.

Its interesting though as he has just got a girlfriend and a good job both at the same time. Before this he really was doing nothing with himself. I have noticed that he seems to have changed a bit, his agressive side is comming out more. He was arguing logic with my friends in a game last night and right or not he was being a bit of a biggot. But generally i find our relationship quite decent. I could not live with him though, we went on a cruise recently and by the end we were a bit grumpy with each other.

[quote="meatburger"] just feel like i need to get her off the phone hehe. She talks in this sultry voice. I cant explain it its not like i dont like her just her voice / things she says are intense lol..
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she might be ENFJ - they're intense, even the way they speak is - i'm not a big fan o'them. just check out the boobs man - they're known for other-worldly size;)
cheers kid

A friend of mine is like that. Intense, and very... hm... like, she doesn't see me for ages, and then it's like "oh, sweetie, I missed you so much!!", hugs, followed by intense account of intense experiences she's had. (Usually miserable ones.) She calls me "Süße". :? If she disagrees with something someone says or does, it's ka-BOOM! Whatever she does, she does it fully and thoroughly.

She's a jazz singer and composer and she's very good at it, precisely because she's able to experience stuff so fully and intensely. Once she sang at a contest. Quite a few singers sang those end-of-relationship songs, but in a polite and friendly kind of way. She sang hers: and in my mind's eye you could almost see the guy packing hastily, just throwing stuff into empty suitcases because he was so scared of her. The whole room stopped talking and listened to her, and when she was finished she got the loudest applause of them all.

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just check out the boobs man - they're known for other-worldly size;)
cheers kid

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I giggle at quotes like this. not because they are about boobs but because its true!! this particular chick has a very impressive rack. Its funny aswell because she always says "im a hottie aren't i?" and im like.. yeah hehe. She is above average but not a total stunner.

Cat,
Hehe she sounds like a handful, would love to hear her sing ;)

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Originally Posted by meatburger

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just check out the boobs man - they're known for other-worldly size;)
cheers kid

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she always says "im a hottie aren't i?" and im like.. yeah hehe.

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Why do you say yes? Random chicks that ask you if they're hot must always be replied no no matter what their hotness is, just because they're using you to feel better about themselves and you don't want to serve their slimy purpose:P

By the way, in an ENTj-ENFp benefit relationship you would be the one at advantage, not him!

Its also fun to just say, yeah your a stunner lol. I dont mind making her feel better :lol:

Oh no FDG is that the case? That is not a good thing. I would have preferred him to have the power because i truly believe i care very little about power. So what i described is natural lol, now that he has got a good job and a chick, he has even been hanging out with different people. Maybe in his mind i have no power over him anymore? Im not panicing because its not like we are dating, we are friends.

Do you think the Benefit type thing actually pans out like that in real life? I mean i never give him advice, i suppose i did see him lower(socially) but when it comes to sport etc / getting chicks he is way better. I wouldn't want to loose him as a friend and im not going to go out gaining power just to keep us in the same position, i like him doing well too :?

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Originally Posted by meatburger

Its also fun to just say, yeah your a stunner lol. I dont mind making her feel better :lol:

Oh no FDG is that the case? That is not a good thing. I would have preferred him to have the power because i truly believe i care very little about power. So what i described is natural lol, now that he has got a good job and a chick, he has even been hanging out with different people. Maybe in his mind i have no power over him anymore? Im not panicing because its not like we are dating, we are friends.

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I really don't think that benefit relationship are at all about power. I've got an ENFp girl friend (not girlfriend, lol) and we get along very well, I can't really see any power dynamic between the two of us. OTOH I know another ENFp (whore) which is always on an attempt at downplaying every ability of mine. I really don't give a shit, but it's mostly and individual issue, imho.

I tend to think that ENTjs have no thoughts about power on friendships. It has never occurred to me :S

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Do you think the Benefit type thing actually pans out like that in real life? I mean i never give him advice, i suppose i did see him lower(socially) but when it comes to sport etc / getting chicks he is way better.

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I consider myself equal with the two ENFps I know. I've never really experience anything related to them supposedly feeling in an higher status, except for the fact that they have trouble seeing how I possibly like ISFjs :lol:

Getting chicks, again, isn't THAT much type related, except maybe I vs E.

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I wouldn't want to loose him as a friend and im not going to go out gaining power just to keep us in the same position, i like him doing well too :?

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What do you mean? Just act naturally! Benefit relationships are good for friendships, imho.

Will do mate thanks that makes me happy. :)

All that my mate needs to do now is reply to my fricken SMS. Its 06/06/06 Devil day and i want to go see the Omen lol. I said he should come if he is not too much of a pussy. He handles scary movies way better than me haha

I saw the omen... Was a decent movie..

Its really funny, my mate and i always scare the crap of each other. We seem to have a similar way of imagining things in our minds eye.

For example after the movie i was like "Imagine what would have happened if you looked to your left(as he was right on the isle near the wall), and there was a boy just standing there")

He said he would crap himself

Then we got to his house and i was like "I think i just saw something walk past your window inside" lol and i looked a bit worried. We also said there was a beam of light that looked like this beam in the movie"

He got me back though, because he said "Imagine if when you were driving away i tried to run after you but wasn't fast enough and there was a boy sitting in the back". Haha the whole drive home i kept looking in my rear vision to make sure i would get murdered...

:)

My dad is an ENFj. The problem I have talking with him is that I know anything I tell him will elicit a very strong reaction. Not everything warrants a strong reaction. I get uncomfortable when he reacts very strongly to something that isn't that big a deal. So I've never really been able to talk to him about stuff. I don't like the drama.

I know plenty of ENFJs but I find with some (espcially the ones Im close to) I have to watch what I say. Sometimes I just like to vent or go off about something but I dont want to be taken too seriously. I will only do this in the presence of a friend who I think will understand. ENFJs will take what I say serious unless I warn them Im just talking crap.
You also have to be extremely careful with any kind of critism too. They are hypersensitve about themselves (ENFPs can be too).
Ultimately when you have two hypersensitve people hanging too close it becomes too much to deal with and so you have to separate for a time or spend alot of time clarifying what you meant. :?

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Originally Posted by Nicky

My dad is an ENFj. The problem I have talking with him is that I know anything I tell him will elicit a very strong reaction. Not everything warrants a strong reaction. I get uncomfortable when he reacts very strongly to something that isn't that big a deal. So I've never really been able to talk to him about stuff. I don't like the drama.

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yes. they just really, really suck for this. i dunno, i agree with your husband about ENFjs, that you can't really talk to them about anything or debate anything because they're so fixed on their ideas and everything turns into a big shitty emotional drama with them, and i wind up just going, "JESUS YOU ARE SO PIGHEADED!" also, yeah, they'll present some emotionally-loaded thing as a fact and then just embellish the living hell out of it and :Se: it into the ground. gah. ):

There are no ENFjs in my family, but the ENFjs that I’ve met act in that way. Usually, they are the only people in whos presence I can’t relax. ISTjs are probably the only one’s who can really stand their strong reactions, but it’s not that they would endure it, thay seem to enjoy that drama. Their reaction is the opposite of mine – where I get annoyed and stressed or angry (when discussing something with an ENFj), they seem to relax.

ENFJs can be very very loyal friends, but are also the biggest drama queens / kings around. Everything is an emotional trip for them and the guys are the worst cause they dont notice it.

There are more business inclined ones who seem to be a bit more subdued though.

I recently started my second semester in highschool, lo and behold I have an IEE teacher (probably the Ne subtype). First impression he gave, he was very loud and enthusiastic, talked a lot about nuancing and related it to many kinds of subjects/texts. It really blew my mind how he could be this crazy at the first day of second semester. When i think about this, I'm worried that i might not have what it takes to do well in his class. It's all this Ne stuff and brainstorming crap i don't know what more i can do. The way i do things is, think of an idea ---> work on it -->follow through --->then begin next idea. And this guy just blows all the ideas he has with you. And obviously he is probably really facking good at suggesting ideas cuz he's been a teacher for like a decade or so (teaching the same material in a different way o.o).

I've read a few things on IEE but I'm just really worried because an EIE and IEE relationship is pretty messy. We have different ideas and our writing styles are different too o.o, so i wonder when socionics says "You can't read anything your quasi-identical writes, i really wonder if that's true in my case" Will i fail his course :(? Anybody help?

Befriend a classmate who can help "translate" for you, to help you understand what the teacher wants...? Someone from Alpha or Gamma...

Also, I would talk with your teacher. If he's an IEE, he'll probably be pretty open to the idea of personality types and Socionics (maybe he's even studied it himself, who knows?) and you can explain to him your concerns about your different "languages," and ask him to be understanding and accepting of your differing style as long as you're making an effort in his class.

Also, have you absolutely ruled out ILE? Because it seems like that could be a possibility, too. Then he'd be your Benefactor...

btw, you may be worrying for nothing...Perhaps you should just give it a week or so and see what happens...

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Originally Posted by ReiLingBaz

I recently started my second semester in highschool, lo and behold I have an IEE teacher (probably the Ne subtype). First impression he gave, he was very loud and enthusiastic, talked a lot about nuancing and related it to many kinds of subjects/texts. It really blew my mind how he could be this crazy at the first day of second semester. When i think about this, I'm worried that i might not have what it takes to do well in his class. It's all this Ne stuff and brainstorming crap i don't know what more i can do. The way i do things is, think of an idea ---> work on it -->follow through --->then begin next idea. And this guy just blows all the ideas he has with you. And obviously he is probably really facking good at suggesting ideas cuz he's been a teacher for like a decade or so (teaching the same material in a different way o.o).

I've read a few things on IEE but I'm just really worried because an EIE and IEE relationship is pretty messy. We have different ideas and our writing styles are different too o.o, so i wonder when socionics says "You can't read anything your quasi-identical writes, i really wonder if that's true in my case" Will i fail his course :(? Anybody help?

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Eh, you should be fine.

I've had EIEs in class, and whether they do/do not do well has little if anything to do w their socionics type. As an example, I had a girl last semester who was EIE [I'm an IEE], and though I'm pretty sure she thought I was... well, flighty... she was a good student -- she contributed to discussions and debates, and her writing was excellent.

One good thing about having an IEE teacher is that IEEs, going by myself and the IEE teachers I know, tend to be open to listening to and considering differing viewpoints. I actually like/appreciate when students put forth differing viewpoints; it makes us all think more deeply and keeps things interesting. [I teach argument, so we have a lot of debates and such in class... as long as the students are respectful of one another -- basically, no resorting to personal insults in the course of argument -- pretty much anything goes.

It's not that you literally cannot read and understand what your quasi-identical writes. As long as you meet the requirements of the assignments and write well, don't worry about the intertype relation.

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One good thing about having an IEE teacher is that IEEs, going by myself and the IEE teachers I know, tend to be open to listening to and considering differing viewpoints. I actually like/appreciate when students put forth differing viewpoints; it makes us all think more deeply and keeps things interesting.

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Excellent point.

Oh yaa, even when he didn't say all those things. I guess the way he presented himself tells me that he does* accept different view points. Hence why he wants to nuance things and mess things up a little. Crazy :shock:, o ok i guess if my perspective is different, the more nonsense he can think of my writing the better o.o. (Just that I'm a little concerned as to "your quasi can't read each other's writing o.o, perhaps it only goes for EIE reading the IEE's work. As far as it concerns me, the IEE does captivate my interest a lot. They really know how to throw out things that I've really wanted to think about but never had a chance to. :indifferent2:

Then again i do have some trouble expressing myself in his class cuz I like to do it internally + he only picks on the students that he knows well. Like this one cheeky guy who always participates a lot. Grrr, I shall convince him of my superb EIE-ness.

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Originally Posted by pianosinger

Befriend a classmate who can help "translate" for you, to help you understand what the teacher wants...? Someone from Alpha or Gamma...

Also, I would talk with your teacher. If he's an IEE, he'll probably be pretty open to the idea of personality types and Socionics (maybe he's even studied it himself, who knows?) and you can explain to him your concerns about your different "languages," and ask him to be understanding and accepting of your differing style as long as you're making an effort in his class.

Also, have you absolutely ruled out ILE? Because it seems like that could be a possibility, too. Then he'd be your Benefactor...

btw, you may be worrying for nothing...Perhaps you should just give it a week or so and see what happens...

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Noooo, he's definitely not an ILE. I know 2 ILE's in my school, one's a clown and the other one is fun but also serious. If he were actually an ILE, he wouldn't be rambling on for like an hour about uhhh pretty much everything o.o. One things for sure, my teacher probably is bad at Ti (like me) unlike the ILE. Super sure he is Ne-IEE. Definetly..YA :D

Oh ya...true i should just give it a week and approach him tomorrow or day after...I do need some help on writing a creative piece for my university supplementary essay's. Hey i wonder if 16types forum could help me. that'd be such a wacky idea. LOL

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As far as it concerns me, the IEE does captivate my interest a lot.

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I could say the same thing about the EIE's I know, actually. On a more superficial level, they are a lot of fun to be around. The problems arise more when we're expected to take each other seriously.

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Originally Posted by ReiLingBaz

Just that I'm a little concerned as to "your quasi can't read each other's writing o.o, perhaps it only goes for EIE reading the IEE's work.

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So... did you have any trouble reading/understanding my post?

good tucker max quote.

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Originally Posted by Song

So... did you have any trouble reading/understanding my post?

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Non o.o, i think it only applies when you start expressing your opinions and ideas about things. For me I'm not even so sure now about that statement, we'll have to see in the future. Or...perhaps it will work better if one is a lot more older than the other?

:thumbsup: To what others have said so far, you'll probably be alright.

In general, I've noticed teachers who brainstorm lots of ideas, don't follow through well on those ideas themselves. :P And therefore don't enforce others to stick to their ideas.

Just humor him. Write what he wants you to. Don't worry too much about quality.

Also, what have others gotten as grades in the class? :D Ask advice of others who have gone through the class as well.

I'm an ENFj, and I've had a business deal with an ENFp since approximately July 9, 2011.
It's been hilarious to see the progression and devolvement of this relationship into seemingly needless misunderstandings and petty bickering.

I also posted this to Wikisocion, because I found it illustrative of the relationship.

The ENFp contracted our company via a third party, (a trusted bank,) to film his son + band's 1.25 hour performance at Springfield, Massachusetts' 2011 Hoop City Jazz & Art Festival (which was, in itself as a festival, AMAZING.) He asked for "professional" coverage of "the whole set" of his son + band, and a special shotgun audio set-up. To us, this translated to two camera hi-def coverage, and we obliged with the shotgun audio coverage. Also, he wanted it to play on a Mac. Taking all of this into account, our company did exactly that.

Flash forward several weeks. The shoot is done; the editing is done; and the post-production is done. It's taken 69.5 hours of labor. I take the hi-def film over to the ENFp's office, who "loves it," and "thinks it's great." Then I tell him the price, which our company had already heavily discounted, and he looks 'taken aback' -- as though we had been his relatives, planning to do it for free, and now are ripping him off.

Eventually he agreed to a price of $1400.00, which, while on the lowest of the low-end for a "deluxe package" - with several cameras, and special audio set-up - I accepted, due to what I thought was this ENFp's "good reputation" and "good relationship with Springfield's arts community." (The trend I believed he had via Ni + Fe.)

P.S. here's a price guide to a service that's comparable to what our (largely Beta) company did for this ENFp:

http://www.costhelper.com/cost/weddi...deography.html

Next the ENFp tells me that all he ever really wanted was something short, focused directly on his son and not the band, and more "Mom & Pop" in character; which totally flew in the face of what we perceived he asked for, originally, (i.e. "professional," "shoot the whole thing.")

He then asked us to re-edit our 1.25 hour creation into 25 minutes so that his son could upload his 'close-ups' to YouTube. Our company did exactly that.

Fast-forward a week while the ENFp is on vacation: on turning in the "YouTube creation," first, the ENFp expressed that he could not figure out a way to "get open the ***damned [jewel] case." (That was a head-scratcher.) Later, he said that it "took him over an hour" to get it open, which may have been (Delta) hyperbole.

Next, about two hours later, he calls me - while I'm shooting another project about 25 miles away - and says, "I'm really frustrated with you. We don't seem to be communicating well. This video doesn't play in any of my office's PCs." At the time, I told him the reason it does not play in your company's PCs is because what's on the DVD we gave you is in file form - so that it can be easily uploaded to YouTube, via a Mac -- like asked for. I told him that was the reason it was not playing on any of his PCs. He told me he'd never heard of a DVD that could not play on all media. (I just backed off at that point, realizing that he wasn't computer savvy.) Regardless, he was pissed and swore at me before hanging up.

This ENFp been born into a lot of money, and I got the **FeNi** impression that he felt "entitled" to whatever he wanted, regardless of whether it was technologically possible or not. (It wasn't.) Regardless, I offered to re-edit his project a third time to make it closer to what he expressed that he wanted throughout his many complaints.

Now I thought he wanted a "Mom & Pop" type of video, with a DVD menu, playable on most popular forms of media--PCs, Macs, DVDs, etc--for only the songs featuring his son on vocals. Our company did exactly that.

The ENFp then comes back and wants to haggle price, largely - he's said to me - because *his son* did not like his own performance on the video. The ENFp now bases our product's worth on ***Fi!!!*** The ENFp feels badly for his son, who (likely) did not give his best performance during the 2011 Hoop City Jazz & Art Festival - although it certainly was nothing about which to be embarrassed, in my opinion. Personally, I thought it was good.

The showdown then becomes the ENFj's (my) expectation of Ti - expectations based on the amount agreed upon by both the ENFp and me, the ENFj, for payment, when we discussed payment ($1400.00) - and the ENFp's Fi - "I will not pay that amount it because it didn't please the person I loved."

The case has yet to be resolved; however, our company put in over 100 hours of work into this guys's product, which, apparently, he completely devalues. We want the money that he promised us. He wants to redefine the terms in his *Fi* way.

That's how it's played out in my case so far, with no conclusion yet. Certainly sucks, as my company just bought a Costco-sized box of Ramen noodles.

The Guy is a spoiled twat who believes the publicity that you can get what you want as long as you complain enough. How is that type related?

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Originally Posted by Gilly

The Guy is a spoiled twat who believes the publicity that you can get what you want as long as you complain enough. How is that type related?

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LOL, no comment - although I'd strongly like to right now, believe me - on the first part of what you wrote... That said, I do think that this deal would've gone down differently if not worked out by quasi-identicals.

To me, it's obvious that this guy respects Fi, not Ti -- first he called our work "great," then after his son saw it and didn't like it, the ENFp said it was "sub-standard" and "not what [he] wanted," and then asked for "corrections."

In my opinion, that's the crux of his continued "haggling" with me.

His son didn't like it b/c, during the performance, he hit some bad notes, went off-time a few times, and the crowd shots showed a small, disinterested crowd... That was TRUTH of the performance though...

I'm not going to edit it as though this was Marilyn Manson, and the crowd was going nuts, you know? It wouldn't be true.

My Socionics thinking is: the ENFp reacts to his son's disappointment and "devalues" what our company has done for them, even going so far as to disregard our Ti agreement, ($1400.00.) Personally, I think his Fi's trumping his sense of rules (Ti.)

Sorry to hear what happened. Just curious, any reason why you guys aren't sending out estimates or taking advances? Is it different in the event industry? Do people not tend to push back?

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Originally Posted by Ozz

Sorry to hear what happened. Just curious, any reason why you guys aren't sending out estimates or taking advances? Is it different in the event industry? Do people not tend to push back?

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First, thank you for writing that. I appreciate it :)

In every instance except this, our company has required a "contract rider" for creative services, which features an estimate of costs.

In this case, the ENFp contacted us the day before his son + band were to perform, via a third party (a well-respected, large bank in the area,) and then approached me directly during a break during festival, during which he described what he wanted, i.e. "professional" coverage of "the whole [set]."

I don't carry around contract riders - although now, I wish I did - unless I know about a deal. Also, they take some time - normally at least a few hours, to work up an accurate estimate.

I took this man's business based on his reputation for wealth, support of Springfield's large arts community, and at three bank executives' assurance that I need not worry about payment from this ENFp.

If the ENFp does not pay by Monday, I'm going to call in the favors of the three bankers to lean on him. Sucks.

Wow sounds exactly like a delta-beta debacle.

When IEE gets some Te factor in their head (read: money saving deal) they cannot be reasoned with due to their misguided apprehension of business and money.

It's like talking to a wall.

I think you're right to bring on the bankers. Sounds like this guy expects some kind of relational favor, bullshit. I'd send the bill and be done with it. If he won't pay take him to small claims, the amount is small enough and you'd win. What an ass.

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Originally Posted by Blaze

Wow sounds exactly like a delta-beta debacle.

When IEE gets some Te factor in their head (read: money saving deal) they cannot be reasoned with due to their misguided apprehension of business and money.

It's like talking to a wall.

I think you're right to bring on the bankers. Sounds like this guy expects some kind of relational favor, bullshit. I'd send the bill and be done with it. If he won't pay take him to small claims, the amount is small enough and you'd win. What an ass.

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I'm taking your advice, Blaze. Thank you. :)

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Originally Posted by JuJu

Flash forward several weeks. The shoot is done; the editing is done; and the post-production is done. It's taken 69.5 hours of labor. I take the hi-def film over to the ENFp's office, who "loves it," and "thinks it's great." Then I tell him the price

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I don't know how you guys do business, but apparently managing the customer's expectations is not part of the way you operate. When I work for a client, he always gets a contract that states what he's going to get (and also what not!) and how much it's going to cost, upfront, not after the fact.

I don't see how this is Socionics related with Ti and Fi interaction. Just an idiot way of doing business for an idiot customer.

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Originally Posted by octopuslove

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Originally Posted by Gilly

The Guy is a spoiled twat who believes the publicity that you can get what you want as long as you complain enough. How is that type related?

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Totally agree with your first statement. The type-related part might be the nature of his complaint - if I were trying to get out of paying for something, I'd go for something more technical than "my son didn't like it".

JuJu - this was probably a good lesson - GET EVERYTHING IN WRITING BEFORE YOU START. Estimated price, conditions, special requests, etc. Get them to make changes and sign it before you invest $1400 of labour in it. And I hope you charged him for his later requests, he was clearly trying to take advantage of you by that point to make himself feel like he was getting value for money.

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My thoughts exactly!! And oh yes, it's been a HUGE learning lesson... The one time that the company does business without a contract, we get stiffed -- and we did get stiffed.

I find it weird and almost karmic.

It caused a lot of strife in my little company. There are only 7 artists total here, including me -- and two of them threatened to quit. I ended up paying everyone with my credit card.

We've named our rider after him though, which now, when we make people sign, they ask the story behind it - so we get to spread it, which I relish. :) Also, I took a complaint to the Arts Board of the City of Springfield, and the woman is awesome -- an INFp -- and she's set-up a meeting: "legal guidance for artists" that she's going to promote using my "no name, no specifics" story -- so bottom line: this d-bag will get this promo in his email and will know it's about him.

Everyone asks me if he's Jewish. (He is.) Is this just latent racism or is there something in the Torah I should know about ? I'm half serious -- enough people have asked that I'm kinda weirded out... I'd rather attribute it to him being an ENFp, whose word is good only as long as his internal Feelings are pacified (ugh.)

I'm happy to be a thorn in his side until he does the right thing and pays. I've got an LSI working here and he spams him a lot.

Perhaps asking an Fi type what they thought of this guy's actions would yield a better clue as to what may or may not be type related...and how.

For myself, as a Delta Fi creative type, I thought this guy's responses were out of line. He obviously didn't know his son's preferences well enough to communicate it to ya'll. Which reflects on him, not your product. Regardless, it wasn't his son who ordered it, it was him.

I would more likely shell out the money while criticising myself for not being clear enough in what my son would want and not being clear enough to ya'll. And if you had given me what I had ordered, but it had showed flaws in my son's performance, well, that reflects on my son, not ya'll.

I may have mentioned in passing that my son hadn't like it. I may be frustrated at the waste of money. But I'd still be paying the fee because your people had done the requested work, and I, personally thought it was good work.

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Originally Posted by anndelise

I would more likely shell out the money while criticising myself for not being clear enough in what my son would want and not being clear enough to ya'll. And if you had given me what I had ordered, but it had showed flaws in my son's performance, well, that reflects on my son, not ya'll.

I may have mentioned in passing that my son hadn't like it. I may be frustrated at the waste of money. But I'd still be paying the fee because your people had done the requested work, and I, personally thought it was good work.

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This is exactly what I would have done. IEEs don't just throw out Fi. They also consider possibilities and different scenarios, so I don't see how this would be IEE behavior. I think it could be any type who wants to get out of paying or who misunderstood something.

In any case, I hope you can resolve it!

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Wow sounds exactly like a delta-beta debacle.

When IEE gets some Te factor in their head (read: money saving deal) they cannot be reasoned with due to their misguided apprehension of business and money.

It's like talking to a wall.

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Misguided apprehension of business and money? :confused:

Sounds like you're learning something my father-in-law also had to learn the hard way...wealthy people are STINGY. A "poor" person requesting the same services would have been much more obliging and willing to pay the price. Backwards, huh?

Thank you for the responses everyone!! :)

Personally, what I attributed to his Fi - maybe erroneously, but it didn't feel that way to me at the time - was the reason why he refused to pay: "my son didn't like it." As if that's a valid reason not to pay what you owe - that's disgraceful in my opinion.

I agree with the other sentiments though... The bottom line was: this man was in it for himself. (Since then, I've been told by others that he's always in it for himself.) Also, he's not a person of his word.

I have had major misunderstandings with my ENFp step-brother - they've been so major that we don't really talk, even though we're quasi-related - however, I think that he's a man of his word.

I don't believe this behavior is representative of all ENFps. I just thought that this particular guy's excuse regarding his "son not liking it," and thus "it's not worth anything," was Fi skewed horribly.

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Originally Posted by Kim

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Originally Posted by anndelise

I would more likely shell out the money while criticising myself for not being clear enough in what my son would want and not being clear enough to ya'll. And if you had given me what I had ordered, but it had showed flaws in my son's performance, well, that reflects on my son, not ya'll.

I may have mentioned in passing that my son hadn't like it. I may be frustrated at the waste of money. But I'd still be paying the fee because your people had done the requested work, and I, personally thought it was good work.

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This is exactly what I would have done. IEEs don't just throw out Fi. They also consider possibilities and different scenarios, so I don't see how this would be IEE behavior. I think it could be any type who wants to get out of paying or who misunderstood something.

In any case, I hope you can resolve it!

Quote:

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Wow sounds exactly like a delta-beta debacle.

When IEE gets some Te factor in their head (read: money saving deal) they cannot be reasoned with due to their misguided apprehension of business and money.

It's like talking to a wall.

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Misguided apprehension of business and money? :confused:

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I have absolutely no idea of what I was thinking here WTF?? Retracted.

Stand by the small claims advice tho.

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Originally Posted by JuJu

I don't believe this behavior is representative of all ENFps. I just thought that this particular guy's excuse regarding his "son not liking it," and thus "it's not worth anything," was Fi skewed horribly.

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Understood. And you may have a point. But then, who does want to pay for something he doesn't like? Of course he should still pay. Especially after continuing to request services even after the fact. For all you know, the son likes it just fine and the guy's just being a wheeler-dealer.

Yeah, the only comment I have to say about this is 'Rich people are crazy.' Not all rich people, but a lot of them, especially if their entire family is socially powerful and well known, and the kids were born into that lifestyle. And, sorry if there are any rich people here. But this kind of thing happens, I've seen it. They really do often think that they can demand whatever they want, and get it, if they were born into a family that was already wealthy, and if they don't understand how a person becomes wealthy.

@ pianosinger

I agree with you. In my opinion, however, I think that brings up an even more interesting Socionics-related idea: where does the influence of type/information processing end, and where does the influence of 'everything else' begin?

As someone who loves to think about Socionics, that particular concept fascinates me.


@ n1cole:

You are absolutely right, in my opinion -- I have noticed that too. Personally though, I'll put a clause on what you said: when I've dealt with super-rich people -- people who could give a damn about what they pay for, like major players here at MassMutual (a fortune 100 company in my city,) they're cool, pay on time, give no hassle. Smile on the streets and say "hello," etc. Personally, I've noticed that it's the people in the level or two under this -- rich, but not all the way -- who feel entitled to discounts, and entitled to act like douches, in general.

I first noticed this when I went to prep school at Lawrence Academy... The Saudi princes were as nice as could be about money, and paying ppl well for their efforts. The sons of rich folk several levels down -- the sons of bankers, sons of lawyers, etc -- could, on occasion, act like d-bags about money... And I'm finding the same outside of high school. :(

P.S. Blaze: small claims was a great idea -- THANK YOU!

I don't get why you are labeling his affection for his son as 'Fi'. I think you are correct to not label it too quickly as that. He just really loves him. You've always been a type of person where you're just really focused on your image and business. Most people aren't like that. Well a lot of people aren't.

You break hearts for your self-image and job. You've admitted to it as much. That person breaks other people's self-image and jobs for their heart. But in the end, everybody's heart gets broken since for you , there's no dichotomy.

Are you the bad guy or is he? Well I don't know if that's simple. It just reminds me of what I think is the oldest conflict in the book, the war between somebody's self-image and how they actually are treating other people. When we're so focused up on our own self-image (what a business has to do to stay successful though so I'm not attacking you as I understand where ur coming from completely) we can lose our ability to connect with people.

You hate doing things for other people without getting anything in return yourself, but that's how other people judge our real love.

I think you shouldn't be so hung up on your own self image but then again I think he should just leave you alone and go elsewhere to somebody he's more emotionally compatible with. =/

If you want to stay in good relations with him and want his future money then I think u will just have to be nice to him even if it kills you. God I don't know how sales people do it. I couldn't be fake like that omg poor salespeople.

From what you describe it seems like you're dealing with your IDENTICAL (EIE) and you dislike him so much because he's totally opposite of what you expect from others (dual).

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Originally Posted by Topaz

You also have to be extremely careful with any kind of critism [towards EIEs] too. They are hypersensitve about themselves (ENFPs can be too).
Ultimately when you have two hypersensitve people hanging too close it becomes too much to deal with and so you have to separate for a time or spend alot of time clarifying what you meant. :?

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That's my personal experience too, and why I prefer not to be close to EIEs. I think it's always better to remember that it's not the person, but the relationship :indifferent2: Here what DarkAngelFireWolf69 says about it:

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Communication between two "Passionate" (ER) types.
In such highly communicative pair petty accusations against each other cannot be avoided. Each will try to affect the other in an extroverted manner, but neither of them gives way. It will seem to both of these partners that the other does not understand them, so there will be a strong desire to sort out relations. However, any attempts to prove one's correctness to the other partner usually lead to nothing. Due to this, conflict does not fade for a long time. In contact with their environment, both compete in the emotional impact on it. Such a pair is easily made to quarrel, since the emotional excess in it must find an outlet. In the case of defending mutual interests against external encroachments the coordination of joint activities is complicated. Reaching equilibrium in communication for the long term in this pair is unrealistic.

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My experience with quasi-identical is pretty good. My favorite teacher in school was an EIE and we had a pretty much platonic friendship, she always appreciated my insights and motivated me to develop my skills. Once someone mentioned me when talking to her and she cried remembering me, I don't know why but probably she got emotional with all the good memories.

I also find their output pretty interesting in general

These are probably the top 3 worst intertype combinations irl lol. I have gotten along with IEEs fine, but when it goes wrong it's bad.

There were two I worked with at my old job, they were both friends with one another. I got along with one of them completely fine and we were pretty good friends.

The other got offended by everything I said, argued with me constantly, and was openly arrogant and rude toward me.

My track record with SLIs is better than with IEEs.

Superficially, Quasi-identical partners seem to understand issues or situations to an equal degree of clarity but how they go about resolving them shows that their priorities, direction and methodology can be radically different so there's often doubt as to whether or not they actually understood things similarly. They can banter with one another about trivial subjects, but after several hours, many tend to find each other rather tiring or irritating - and working together for extended periods can become absolutely painful for more than a few. They can be good acquaintances or neighbours but they're as bad as Mirrors for their inability to agree on what to do.

a.k.a. I/O