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Quote:
Originally Posted by Christy B
Yes, yes, I kind of wanted to scratch his nose for him when he paused the second time, that's besides the point though, you guys are ruining the whole EII wrath = angry grizzly bear. Grrr. :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Minde
ahh, come one now baby don't be so hard on yourself! :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Smilingeyes
Megan, yeah it is pretty dumb to be arguing over something like this. No hard feelings :wink:.
My ESTj boss yesterday (msn convo)
ESTj: YOU ALWAYS FORGET TO DO X DAAAAAMMM YOU'LL DRIVE ME CRAZY!!
Me: I though I did it...
ESTj: (inspects). Oh. It may seem impossible, but I actually was wrong. Sorry.
:lol:
:lol: :lol: :lol: This looks very familiar.Quote:
Originally Posted by FDG
I'd imagine an 8w9 would have that kind of wrath. After all, Riso & Hudson have labelled the 8w9 "The Bear".Quote:
Originally Posted by aut0
yeah, I guess we finally agreed upon something :shock: .Quote:
Originally Posted by Sereno
ESTps tend to come off as quite relaxed. Due to the manner in which they process their environment and emit natural :Se: "control," they rarely come off as active and or 'all over the place' as many EJ temperments.Quote:
Originally Posted by polikujm
That I can agree with, but if an SLE just so happened to be insanely energetic, would you have the guts to call him an LSE? Rhetorical question.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeAnte
No. I lack the courage.Quote:
Originally Posted by polikujm
Focus on exerting external control and unity/discord with immediate surrounding environment + old school Delta Aristocratic attitude is all over this description. Si subs can be quite socially amiable and easy to talk to, so long as their own "flow" or way of doing things isn't being abruptly interrupted. :Si:/:Te: functions don't always manifest in stereotypically "agreeable" or "nice" ways either.
This is also my experience, to a t. I can definitely see how an LSE would just tend to drain me of all my energy and probably make me feel very inadequate also.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica
Mimosa, I'm also currently debating between SLE and LSE for this guy I just met. My first impression when meeting him was "whoo an SLE!", but I'm not sure anymore. I'm aware of the tendency to find your conflictor enticing at first, so I dunno. Though tbh currently I can't make up my mind on whether I find him boring/dry or just comfortable. Eh, I guess neither one is a good thing for me due to my tendency to need that ongoing feeling of being challenged. Just a nice guy gets old pretty fast, though I appreciate the intention of course. I do feel like I can be myself when talking to him, but I'm not quite sure if he's just paying me lip service, which I hate. To be fair, I've only seen him in person once (when we met). Every other interaction has been over the phone.
If I can summon the energy to do so, I'll make a thread about him. :indifferent2:
That is totally LSE. My mom is one and she used to be proud of her irresponsibility too. Like there was this situation when I was about 8 years old and none of my parents were at home. I cut my hand really really badly and decided I should go to the doctors alone and not call to any of them because my mom would shout at me for interrupting her work and I didn't knew where my father was(he was supposed to be at home). And my health center was about 20minutes from my house by bus. I went there all in blood. My doctor was shocked. And guess what my mom thought about this situation? She bragged to everyone what an independent child she has.
If he has a more laid-back, easy-going vibe: then SLE.
If he has a more frentic, hectic vibe, then LSE.
It sounds like he's my conflictor though. AHH!
I wish my "sample size" of people wasn't so small. He's not like the one LSE I know, but then again, I only know one LSE. And I don't know any SLEs, though there's something grating about seeing the imagined person in the description next to an imagined image of SLE, as though they really don't match.
Also with the LSE I know and the two ESEs (possibly three), I haven't encountered the "toughness" attitude before. If I were to cut myself I know how they would all respond.
ESE1: "Ohhhhhhh, did you hurt yourself?" (said really dramatically) *rushes to get first aid and becomes a busy body* etc.
ESE2: *trusts me to find bandaids on my own* says something about how I need to be more careful, but not in a critical way.
LSE: criticizes me for being careless, is very efficient and calm while getting the needed supplies, or directing me to... doesn't do anything that makes matters more complicated. Aside from the criticism that rather stings, it's painless.
They would all be appalled if I needed medical assistance and walked to the hospital on my own... though the LSE would criticize me for being stupid.
The LSE scoffs at people who worship "toughness" and do what he sees as careless and stupid things because it's "tough." He has snide and cynical things to say about such people. However, he also would go directly to neighbors who are bothering him just like in the example (without cussing though). He gets rather anal about some things, like if vehicles are parked in bike lanes, he will actually pull over and tell the person in the car off if they're nearby. If there's nothing he can do he'll be like "man, I hate it when people do that!" Anyway, it's really a "sense of civic responsibility." Actually my ESE mom tells people off immediately as well, but in her case it's more a temper thing... if she's irate enough (and she can get so easily), it will all come out in a storm that doesn't relent until others see it her way. It's actually extremely effective. And it can die down just as suddenly as it arose. Also even though it's incredibly stormy, she doesn't seem really lose control during it. Like I would be afraid to lose my temper because I would be afraid of losing control... It wouldn't be me wielding strong emotions, but strong emotions wielding me... or that's what I would be afraid of. The times I've lost my temper, I've rather regretted it.
Anyway there's just this subculture of driving 4-wheelers and wearing wife-beater tank tops, and shooting ones rifle, and acting all macho, etc. And BBQ-ing in the summer, and eating lots of red meat, and having ones wife cook them dinner, etc. Congratulating your kids when they're rude. So on. Fixing cars. Watching sports and wrestling on TV. Acting like a mix of Hulk Hogan and Chuck Norris or something. I maintain that being in a motorcycle gang is cooler. Like a gang of men in black leather who ride together all over all the highways, and seem all macho but they're really softies and not actually macho at all.
I definity agree with you on this, ESTp hold back because they value/have, :Ti:,:Fe:,:Ni:. Not necessarily afraid of the moment but they are aware of the consequences.Quote:
Originally Posted by aixelsyd
What are some of the main differences between these two types?
What does Se/Ti and Te/Si look like?
Thanks. :)
Hmmm, let's see... Se/Ti is irrational and therefore more "flexible" in a way, energized when things don't go according to plan. Te/Si likes to do things by the books or at least follow their plan along in a more linear way.Quote:
Originally Posted by matilda
Se/Ti is much more willing to break the rules if he sees fit. He's the one who determines what rules he wants to follow and will disregard the rules of others unless they line up with his own agenda. (heh, way more fun)
Te/Si likes to have everything "just so". My Te/Si uncle for example, notices when anything in his house is out of place. The vase has to be in the right place on the mantle, the car must be parked a particular way in the garage for him to be happy--that sort of thing. The two Te/Si guys I'm most familiar with are both like this. Se/Ti just doesn't value Si things as much and can overlook them in favor of forward motion toward a larger goal.
Te/Si can get into longer discussions about details whereas Se/Ti is more about the bottom line.
I don't know if I'm describing it very well. but anyway! :)
yes. I've seen this also. LSEs are more steady for certain. (steady but boring :O)Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinocchio
Also, SLEs might be more into stuff like smoking a great cuban cigar or drinking the high-end cognac. lol
Removed at User Request
right. the other thing is, while LSEs are more about economy, SLEs are willing to splurge on what they value. My SLE friend looooooves cars and has owned several BMW M3s in his lifetime as well as other performance cars. Likes to spend money on his toys. :D
matilda, are you trying to figure out which one is your dual (I notice you have another thread about INFp versus MBTI INFP)? The responses you get from a lot of people are going to be slanted for or against one or the other. For example, redbaron (an IEI) describes SLEs as "way more fun", "energetic", and "flexible" while ascribing obsessive-compulsive qualities to LSEs. My descriptions of the two types are likely to be equally biased from the other direction, since the LSE is my dual.
The wikisocion has good descriptions of both types.
ESTp/SLE description. You can check out this page that can only be contributed to by people who identify as SLEs and see how their style strikes you.
LSE description. And the LSE domain page.
You could also check out their duality descriptions, to see what they need from their dual and what they offer. This was instrumental in helping me realize that the LSE is my dual and thus I am an INFj/EII (although, like you, I am an MBTI INFP).
:lol: yeah I know I'm totally biased! it's true...
This should also be taken with a grain of salt:
I've seen it go both ways.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinocchio
I know an SLE who curses like a sailor and doesn't give a rats ass about seeming inappropriate or 'looking classy'.
I'm (LSE) tremendously concerned with value and quality. I also care generally about being 'classy' to the extent of being respectful. I don't particularly like people who are unclassy or disrespectful.
It would also be good for you to study each type's duals (SLE+IEI) and (LSE+EII) to see how the dual dyad works together. Consider the differences in the types - why do SLE and IEI 'work more', but, SLE and EII are considered opposites?
some things to keep in mind: SLEs appreciate BURSTS OF EMOTION or BIG REACTIONS pretty well. Their dual, the IEI, is very good at facilitating these things; IEIs are better at managing an SLE in terms of displaying emotions so as to guide or indicate where an SLE should go or what they should do -- but this same sort of "emotional guidance" is unappealing to LSEs. It also relates to Fe as a quadra value in beta quadra. SLEs often like doing things that are "impressive" to gain some sort of appeal or praise or applause, although this sometimes comes in terms of being 'tough' or gaining respect, or even instilling fear. They very much enjoy reactions that are emotionally involved... and tend to get bored if there isn't a spark of excitement around. Some SLEs may be less, but this can be a major difference between SLE and LSE
Comparatively, LSEs often are not so attracted to or drawn to getting emotional responses out of people. LSEs may be less trustworthy of people who so easily display emotions, and they might appear fake. What is appealing and exciting to the SLE may seem very untrustworthy and fake to an LSE; what may appear boring to an SLE may appear welcoming and sturdy to an LSE. This has to do, somewhat, with how the LSE/EII dual pair works out, and why LSE has IEI as conflictor and EII as a dual. EIIs, being Fi dominant and IJ temperment, are much more 'steadfast' and less adaptable - EIIs have very strong personal preferences and opinions about things. This is appealing to the LSE because it seems reassuring, but that sort of thing is less appealing to an SLE, as it is too boring, and Fi can feel overly judgmental and containing to them. Also, EIIs often find people who are overbearing or trying to draw strong emotional reactions form them as unpleasant, which SLEs can be more prone to do.
Now, that's all very general. Some LSEs will be more concerned about 'their image' and 'showing off', sure. But What I tried to present were some key differences in how the types operate and what they are looking for.
It would be good to also check out the quadra descriptions on wikisocion, and try to understand how beta and delta are different from each other - it has a lot to do with what functions (Se, Ti, Ni, Fe vs Si, Te, Ne, Fi) are valued or unvalued.
also, it would be good to post some typical examples of each type.
Notice the range in emotionality. It has to do with Fe being valued (Kobe), versus a more dry approach, Fe unvalued (Arnold).
Kobe: SLE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMFjg7Hdsys
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnrQXpmkJcc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hWJkdUMiMw
Arnold: LSE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJ1xpUCh7to
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qp8TD-Cto0w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jK1TzLBZR8
(tried to find a more low-key interview to juxtapose to the second kobe bryant one. Obviously Arnold's interviews are a bit more formal than that one, but still, you can sort of see how even humor is expressed differently. Arnold has a low emotional range, and is more drone-like, more explanatory and with heavy explanation)
Obviously - what you said is "biased" from my point of view, too. It's the nature of different quadras.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica
MhmQuote:
Remember that not all IEIs are used to "big emotions", and not all of them will know they tolerate it, so this might be a bit misleading. I can say that from my perspective people blowing up in emotions when angry are a lot less annoying for me than people going stone-faced. Stone-faced, silently angry people are SCARY. However, none of these alternatives are "appreciated". I'd much rather prefer to be friends and have fun all the time. I don't like to quarrel, but I rather quarrel and get it over with than smooth things over and boil slowly inside if there is a conflict. I think you spotted an important difference between Beta and Delta here!
Of course you don't feel a "need to be managed". But that's how it seems to me. IEIs 'feed' or 'direct' SLEs with emotional responses. They react well to comments about whether what they are doing is "appealing", which means more positive energy. To me it seems like management, because it's kind of blatant 'use of emotions', to me. Again, this is an important difference in quadra values.Quote:
Hmm...? I'm not sure I get this "managing an SLE" part. I don't feel any need to be "managed". Could you explain it?
EIIs seem selfish to SLEs because they are so focused on their own opinions and preferences (Fi), and don't care about the "group feeling" as much. But to me, IEIs seem to focus too much on the group feeling, and as such, I see their responses less sincere and more focused on pleasing others or trying to guide others by use of their emotions. The difference has to do with what I value or don't value.
However, once you get past socionics and really understand somebody, it doesn't matter so much. I have some good IEI friends, and I understand how they work and we can get along well. However, I'm noticeably more favorable to Ni subtype IEIs, as they seem more calm and subdued generally -- as opposed to Fe subtypes, who are more emotionally vibrant all the time; I feel significantly more Fe "push/pull"from them, and sometimes conversation simply stalls because things are so different.
I don't know if it's "balance", per se, but they are important differences.Quote:
When it comes to my interactions with EIIs, I am not bored, more generally confused. I find EIIs very well-meaning, empathic, wise and interesting. However, they can suddenly seem so extremely selfish, in a way IEIs are not, since EIIs Fi is subjective as opposed to Fe (objective).
EIIs might have "stong personal preferences", but for me IEIs seem a lot stronger and more independent where EIIs seem infantile and needy.
There. Balance. ;)
To compare:
EIIs are more sincere to me because they don't try to present their moods in a way that relates to the group. The IEI's "objectivity" seems like fickleness in emotional expression, or even manipulation. And IEIs seem needy to me because they keep trying to draw out some sort of emotional response from me, or complain because I'm 'too boring'. And they also tend to get overly dependent on my help or friendship in a noticeably clingy way, but it really only seems that way because they use, imo, emotional tactics to try to make me feel like talking to them.
In reality, no, they aren't any more clingy than EIIs. But EIIs go about things differently, and have their own methods of dealing with things.
Haha, Ryu, way to chose to stellar examples of SLE and LSE. What if Matilda personally dislikes the one that is her dual, then she'll be more confused than ever... There are like a million stereotypes attached to both of these men and they are not exactly your everyday examples of their type. :p
You can choose better ones if you'd like.
I was pointing out a specific difference in the types as per quadra values and emotional expression, not who they are or what they've done with their lives. It would be good for anyone learning socionics to realize that people's types are not completely dependent on how much you personally like or dislike them.
we're all biased of course, but from my (ENFp) perspective...
ESTjs like Si, so they'll put more focus into making a "comfy" environment. They work hard and so will then switch into "relax" mode. Focus will be on comfortable/relaxed (so maybe a couch or TV or the softness of a mattress are important). They will get upset if things aren't being "done right" or "correctly" and it will stress them out. They'll then take the steps within their control/position to change that. Comfortable w/ hierarchy. They'll use Te and think about the most important factors in the situation and what needs to be changed. They'll try to find some "appropriate" way to go about making the changes that doesn't offend people. They like holidays and celebrations and softball games, picnics, groups and want people to come together and play/relax. Like to make plans and honor commitments. The stereotype would be the little boy who wears dockers and gets his friends to start a lawn mowing business where he keeps detailed records.
ESTps like Se, so they feel comfortable influencing an environment and moving things/people around. They'll be fast to take action in changing something (whether the person or situation wants to be changed or not). They won't care as much if people are offended because it was the "right" thing to do. They are sort of "mavericks" (not to quote Sarah Palin or whatever). Don't mind getting into some "trouble" if it's just for fun. The stereotype would be the little boy who steals the kids lunch money just because he finds it funny (or who easily stands up for the bullied kid). Make plans that can easily be changed or cancelled and people will understand because it's just this crazy world we live in. Laid back with a "I'll conquer that when I get to it" attitude.
yeah, I think that's pretty good, jewels. :)
Ok so I made a thread about being in love with a SLE, but I just realized that I could have been wrong.
First of all I'm pretty sure I'm ILI, by dichotomies, intertype relations and by description. So if the female in question was a SLE, it would have been semi-duality. On the other hand, if she was LSE, it would have been Supervision.
In retrospect she really did have j like qualities. But she was also a typical p - live life to the fullest. I know SLEs can sometimes be child-like and while she did exhibit that kind of behavior, she also did things very mature for her age. Everyone thought she was older than she was.
Also in the argument for Supervision(LSE), I remember me calling out a lot of her negative qualities, but then I tried to sympathize kind of. She seemed nervous in my presence, fixing her hair and asking about how she looks (although I realize this could be because she liked me /was flirting). She was very high strung and restless and when class ended and I decided to speak to her, she seemed to be 'shocked' out of her head when I said something, like she had a million things on her mind. She was also very polite and smiled a lot.
In the argument for Semi-duality(SLE), I can relate to the 'moth and flame' description. Every time we got close she revealed or did something that went against my expectations I was 'burned'. The attraction was almost instant. It was also an intellectual relationship, we played mind games with subtle flirting.
According to Socionics.us Supervision is information based, meaning the only reason for a conversation is the transaction of some information. While Semi-duality is energy based, I definitely felt the attraction. I felt compelled to speak to her when she was present and empty when she wasn't there.
In conclusion, there's more evidence to suggest SLE but I'd just like some outside opinions.
LOL well the million things on one's mind and being "shocked out of her head" actually sounds a LOT like me. I am also sort of child-like, but on the other hand mature and responsible more so than some of my peers, and very polite and professional. I can also be insecure about my looks.Quote:
Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold
Could this girl actually be IEE? I relate a lot to your description of her. She doesn't sound at all like an SLE actually to me. As I understand it, SLEs are in reality always and would never admit to any insecurity about their looks. they dont need to be insecure about that! They are in control of their looks at all times (unlike IEEs, but IEEs do want to look nice).
So if she's IEE, it could have been an illusionary relation which could be consistent with the dynamic you described, especially if you and she are creative subtypes (Te-ILI and Fi-IEE).
My question to you is, do you think she's Fe-valuing or Fi-valuing? Ti-valuing or Te-valuing?
An Fe-valuing person would be more concerned with the emotional reactions in the moment, nurturing the atmosphere, adding "fun" to a group. An Fi-valuing person would be more concerned with the establishment of a bond, nurturing the bond, having good long-term bonds with good people.
A Ti valuing person would be more concerned about arranging information in a very logical, consistent organized structure, and less concerned about the actual facts (precision over accuracy). A Te valuing person would be more concerned about obtaining/sharing as much accurate information as possible even if some of it seems contradictory, and less concerned about the structure of it (accuracy over precision). Efficiency does fall into the realm of Te if i'm not mistaken.
I'm sure she wasn't an IEE. There was already a textbook example of one in my class. She had friends everywhere, was the most graceful person you could ever meet, and was the class president. She was a dilettante but didn't really understand things, she just had the zest for knowledge. Also you could easily feel 'close' when she approached you, unlike the other girl.Quote:
Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon
The insecure thing only happened twice, to be honest. She was definitely Fe valuing, our classroom was usually laid back and she said it "was a drag".
I just realized the only possible types are ILE and SLE, we had too close of a psychological distance. So yeah I'm sure she was a SLE now. I guess the j behavior was because she was a new student and wasn't situated yet.
Who is this referring to? The IEE in your class? or the girl you think is SLE?Quote:
Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold
The IEE.
wow this thread is giving me some great insights! Thanks guys!!
Ok, this makes a lot of sense. I never complimented her, as much as I wanted to.Quote:
Originally Posted by ananke
Yea this also makes sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by ananke
I think this amounts for most of the Semi Duality. I wanted to become close and familiar with her, but as much as we discussed plans and activities we never did any of em. Everything was theoretical.Quote:
Originally Posted by ananke
I think Semi-Duality allows for such a relationship, but certain barriers have to be broken down first. She sat directly in front of me and we connected through musical interests. Not only that, I had a SEE next to me, which helped me be more sociable.Quote:
Originally Posted by ananke
Mind games sound like LSE-ILI flirting to me.
This sounds like a very serious human being, possibly LSE; SLE love humor, sarcastic humor, and keep it rolling when they start.
That seems to gel with my SLE friend: when he starts joking, these is no topic that is too taboo for him to target and there is no extreme to which he won't go.
"Raunchy" would be a good word for him.
Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean that the person you describe isn't SLE if she doesn't make Holocaust jokes in the middle of class (or at all, ever.)
Everyone has J/P qualities because of this :Te: and :Si: these are two functions and info from these two functions produce two different information. The difference is that :Se: and :Te: are very different from one another.