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In the spirit of the day, I thought I'd add one more topic. (I put it here in Delta, even though it probably could have gone elsewhere.)
Would someone kindly explain to me the difference between the two? Both seem pushy, loud, and activity oriented. I know how they're theoretically different, but how would I differentiate IRL?
I dont know if I would say either are nessarily pushy and loud (then again everyone is compaired to INFJs :lol: ) but I could say they are activity oriented. ESTPs can be business oriented but unlike ESTJs seem to like more fast paced risky ventures, salesmanship and twisting figures and minds with fast talk and get rich quick schemes. Their emphasis is more on immediate success and the popularity and freedom it brings. ESTJs are perserveering and hard working, less flexible and more conservative. They logically build block on top of block and try to plan for the future and security. ESTPs are more "live fast and die young" and he ESTJ is more " a penny saved is a penny earned". These of course are stereotypes so dont go crazy.
Ok, so maybe "loud" and "pushy" weren't the best terms to use. They do sound a little negative, though I wasn't thinking that way. Maybe "aggressive in achieving their goals" would have sounded better. Even that sounds bad. :?
Would it be fair to say that ESTjs have a greater sense of personal responsibility? That they're a little more focussed on doing what's "right" than on what's "fun"? Like you said, these are stereotypes. So, of course, it would be unfair to go so far as to say that ESTps have no consciences and that ESTjs are sticks-in-the-mud. But in terms of general tendencies...?
I think so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Minde
ESTps are not much into doing what's "right" because of their :Fi: PoLR, and do what's "fun" rather than what's "right" is more an irrational trait.
.
In part I think its because of :Te: which says: the logical tried and true certified way to do something is this or that way. The laws are there because they make sense and any bonehead that gets scrubbed because of ignoring them gets what he deserves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diana
So they obey the rules and figure that by doing so they have a better chance at success than those footloose and fancy free types. Plus they get rewards for doing so, so why not?
Just a thought :wink:
Would you guys mind continuing on this topic?
I know a few people in my life who I am still pretty unsure if they are SLE or LSE. I am thinking I may have mistyped at least one SLE as my dual.
The thing is I actually tend to get along with SLE really well. Conflicting relationship descriptions do not seem to apply to my experiences with SLE. (Maybe these SLE are really LSE???) I am confused. . .
It is very rare that I would confuse these types. At least that is how it seems. They give out a completely different vibe imho. One look in their eyes and you can see the difference.
Based on what you say here, there is no way to tell types of anyone you mentioned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Christy B
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Expat
For lack of a better example, look at me and FDG. Whenever I bring up ethics or doing the right thing, he calls me a hardass, no fun, boring, self righteous, etc etc etc. He prefers his own activities. Myself, I have a huge sense of responsibility, not only to the people I am close to but to the world, I feel. Now, this CAN make me self righteous and I can be an ass too, it is not I am better than FDG or not. But I am absolutely focused on doing what is right over what is fun, and that is why I seem so boring, hardass, etc......... to some.
ESTjs are a lot more "rule" orientated. If there is no order or set of laws, it makes them uncomfortable. Where as an ESTp basically sees rules as restrictions or problems - other people telling him what to do.
Here is the difference visualized:Quote:
Originally Posted by Minde
http://www.badeagle.com/journal/archives/Arnold.jpghttp://imalbum.aufeminin.com/album/D..._H214148_L.jpg
(think of an army officer vs a gangsta)
Lol eheh, it's nice because you also take me seriously and don't see that I take for granted personal responsibility towards people I have already given promises too, whereas you always emphasize it so much...Quote:
Originally Posted by Courage
bottom line is every civil person doesn't harm others, mantains promises and shit. Doesn't seem a good way to distingiush two types since this way one of the two appears better than the other.
In any case I'll try (thinking as myself as an ENTj though. It's funny how everybody wanted me to be ENTj when I wanted to be ESTp, and now is the opposite).
ESTps are generally heavily invested in whatever social group they have. It's rare to see a loner ESTp: in all instances there is a (beta) group of 3-4 people hanging out with them. Generally they tend to care a lot less about doing the things one is "supposed to" such as school-being civil towards others-not breaking things; the upside of this trait is that they do not care about others doing something like this either. An ESTp soccer player is more likely to be a forward and mobilize himself in extreme situations when there is a goal to score. High mobility and speed, but lower resistance.
ESTjs are generally loners. Except from the group of friend they hang out on sunday evening, they tend to be heavily invested in their school projects, work, and closest relationships (girlfriend/family), dedicating most of their time towards making enough money to support them. They tend to be careful with their "stuff" and are extremely risk averse especially in comparison to ESTps (this trait is one of the most noticeable difference).
The risk-aversion attitude is generally easily seen in school (less so at work). ESTjs are generally very hard studiers, and tend to prepare themselves for every possible worst outcome by knowing everything. I think Smilingeyes described this as having a list of things that haven't been done, and "checking" them being satisfied only when the list is completed. ESTps tend towards using the most effective, brutal means to achieving a single goal. For example for an exam an ESTp will take all the old exams, memorize how to solve the most common problems among them, and do it. The strategy might work better but there is the downside of not having absorbed a personal system. ESTps wouldn't do anything with an absorbed system simply because they have their own Ti.
I don't think ESTjs are necessarily loners, but obligations come first. When the work is done, they are fun, energetic, etc. ESTjs are not stiff rule-followers.
My mom once kidnapped a dog because it was being abused. She didn't care that she should have returned it to the owner because it was his "property." She wanted to protect it from being mistreated and found a good home.
ESTjs like structure, but when they see flaws in the system (especially Te, Si, and Fi flaws), they will point them out. The INFj will be better at detecting the "Fi flaw" and communicate them to the ESTj. When the ESTj agrees, s/he will do something to fix it and will not care if that causes the structure to collapse.
ESTjs like structure because they want to do their work most efficiently, but they don't like structure for structure's sake.
Many times when people describe ESTjs on here, they describe people I never want to run into, so I tend to think that people are actually describing outgoing ISTj...but that's just me.
Good call.Quote:
ESTjs are generally loners. Except from the group of friend they hang out on sunday evening, they tend to be heavily invested in their school projects, work, and closest relationships (girlfriend/family), dedicating most of their time towards making enough money to support them. They tend to be careful with their "stuff" and are extremely risk averse especially in comparison to ESTps (this trait is one of the most noticeable difference).
MhmQuote:
My mom once kidnapped a dog because it was being abused. She didn't care that she should have returned it to the owner because it was his "property." She wanted to protect it from being mistreated and found a good home.
Yes - that is Te + Si.Quote:
ESTjs like structure because they want to do their work most efficiently, but they don't like structure for structure's sake.
Structure just for structures sake would be more ISTj, or just Ti in general.
Everything has to be very functional.
Ok, mine was more a comparison with ESTps, where ESTjs tend to be less pack-orientated than them, usually.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kim
Ok, sure. I agree with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by FDG
I think what is being discussed here is not the LSE and the SLE, but in fact the LSI and the SEE (which are, incidentally, very similar to MBTT ESTJ and ESTP respectively).
This whole playful, against-the-rules attitude to life is true of the SEE, not the SLE, which is why Fabio identifies with it (if he is LIE, it still shows why he identifies with it - he is Gamma, and I think most people agree with this).
The rules etc. are to do with the LSI, not the LSE. Only the ESTJ cares about rules, precautions and the like. There are far too many misconceptions about the LSE. They do shit properly, and they do it well. They are pragmatic; not pedants, or rule-freaks, or perfectionists. You think Schwarzenegger didn't break a few rules? Of course he used his own strength and hard work to get where he did. But they don't care about the 'right way' like people purport the LSE to do so. That is not as big an issue as effectiveness. If everyone followed every little shitty detail to the end, nothing would get done. This is how a Te-dominant thinks. The whole shit that people think is an LSE is actually close to an LSI. They are the ones with the carefully thought-out systems and procedures. Everything defined within them must be right; perfect; whatever. Ti is what people are confusing with LSEs. Consistency is a Ti thing. Pragmatism is a Te thing.
The difference between an SLE and an LSE I don't know, otherwise I would've decided which one I actually was by now.
ESTjs seem much more oriented towards routines. They're more likely to keep the same job for a long period of time, even if it's, by society's standards, a shitty service job.
ESTps get jobs but they're more interested in moving up than in falling into any routine, indeed they're likely to just stop going to work or to line up a new job when they get bored of the last one - most importantly they actually look forward to 'new beginnings' in this way.
Also, this may sound surprising, but I find that ESTjs aren't as good at keeping control of themselves when they drink. They tend to drink WAY too much and then do things like black out, puke everywhere and get into stupid fights on the street. ESTps seem more "self-aware" in this regard. Don't get me wrong, they won't hesitate to get piss drunk, but they're more coscious of the consequences, that doing stupid things that disregard their self-interest (like humiliating themself in public), will have the next day and so generally are better at maintaining some semblance of control over themselves at parties so that they can party longer.
Even though I tend not to get along with ESTps very well I think it is true that they maintain something far more controlled, dignified and less destructive than ESTjs when it comes to consuming excess alcohal. I cannot really count the amount of times the two ESTjs that I work with drank too much and made life just really hard for themselves, one other one even lost his job due to turning up at work obviously drunk and aggressive. What is with ESTjs and alcohal anyway? They all seem to be into drinking big time. One of the two I mentioned has quite bad damage to his liver and yet is still drinking excessively and self-destructively.Quote:
Originally Posted by misutii
I do know some ESTj's that are not into drinking. I think that drinking in excess is not type related, since we all are susceptible to addictions. I don't buy the "I love the taste of alcohol" reason for drinking, so my guess is that the majority of people who drink are either doing it for the social aspect or simply because they are going through a rough time. Also, getting drunk here in the states is not looked down upon by the general culture (actually seen as cool), which gives the more reason for people to get piss drunk.
As for the general thread, I don't see how someone could confuse ESTj's with ESTp's. FDG put it nicely here:
Specially how ESTp's will do anything to get what they want depending on their desperateness. However, he forgot to say that they discuss ways on how to cheat before an exam. A cheating ESTj is hard to come by...Quote:
The risk-aversion attitude is generally easily seen in school (less so at work). ESTjs are generally very hard studiers, and tend to prepare themselves for every possible worst outcome by knowing everything. I think Smilingeyes described this as having a list of things that haven't been done, and "checking" them being satisfied only when the list is completed. ESTps tend towards using the most effective, brutal means to achieving a single goal. For example for an exam an ESTp will take all the old exams, memorize how to solve the most common problems among them, and do it. The strategy might work better but there is the downside of not having absorbed a personal system. ESTps wouldn't do anything with an absorbed system simply because they have their own Ti.
On a side note, one thing I have noticed is that if you do something that took too short of a time in a LSE's view, they think that you cheated somehow.
I've noticed that many Js, in general (from experience ESFj, INFj, INTj, ENFj, ESTj) seem less able to regulate their drinking when around others that are drinking and so tend to push it too far and 'black out' (as in not remember what they did the night before). I suppose many follow the mantra "work hard, play hard" but end up working too hard, then playing too hard and thus playing less, having to leave before the party's over. The most interesting thing about this is that most of them that I know actually refer to drinking too much, puking and blacking out as "fun" and a night involving these things as a "good night", lol, and I think they're being honest cuz they always do it again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan
I think maybe it helps them relieve stress. They also like being social and this is one thing that brings people together.
When I am with ESTJs who are drinking way too much they always want to point out how much I have had to drink, even if it is much less than they have had. . .
.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sereno
I guess there must be some, I haven't met one such one yet though.
.Quote:
I think that drinking in excess is not type related, since we all are susceptible to addictions
Really? I do not think we are all susceptible to addictions. Some people are, others aren't.
That is totally not true. I do not at all think cheating ESTjs are hard to come by in the least, ESTj seem to need and appreciate moral guidance IME. I think many of them actually do like cheating (it satisfies their Te desires to get things done quicker) and because of remarkably poor :Ni: they think they will never ever be caught and just continue until they do get caught. The surest example of an ESTj I have dealt with cheated and fabricated evidence for the research he was doing. This was medical research in the field of neurophysiology and the impact of certain drugs. He was taken to court by the university he was working with as his fraud had such far reaching implications on people's life; I would post a link here to his picture, the case and everything but that would not be fair to him. He has paid dearly for his lies because he is now at a total career dead end. He still behaves as if he is some great big caregiver/helper and totally seem not to grasp the lack of ethics and impact his deception could have had on the life of others he thinks he cares for.Quote:
Specially how ESTp's will do anything to get what they want depending on their desperateness. However, he forgot to say that they discuss ways on how to cheat before an exam. A cheating ESTj is hard to come by...
That is because they(not all of them) sometimes shorten things by cheating and tend to imagine that others have done the same when they finish things quickly..they seem to be especially suspicious of :Te: / :Ni: in this regard.Quote:
On a side note, one thing I have noticed is that if you do something that took too short of a time in a LSE's view, they think that you cheated somehow.
I may prefer dealing with ESTjs over ESTps but that is not because ESTjs are ethically superior, though some ESTjs can do a darn good job of seeming that way to the outside world.
Well, each is entitled to his/her opinions. However, I am not one to opiniate on something without considering that their can be truth behind it. When I say that all people are susceptible to addictions, I am not only referring to drinking. It makes sense to me that if something helps give you a quick fix to problems that you will eventually use it over and over again because of the high that it made you feel. Just because it makes sense at the time doesn't mean that it actually helps you in your goals in life, or your overall health, interpersonal realtionships, etc. I don't want to get in a discussion on addictions, just wanted to mention what my thoughts are on it.
I know ESTj's who cheat, but mostly the ones I've met don't seem to have a cheating mentality. Also, I'm not trying to say that ESTj's are saints and ESTp's devils, I'm just being objective. I have cheated in certain situations where I think that the class was unfair and I did not want to settle for a poor grade.
Megan, you have no idea about what you're talking about.
I hope you are totally and fully aware that there are people who are very different from you. People with strong :Se: for instance tend to have vast self control and tend to be able to get over habits quickly or not prone to developing them at all. Some people including myself have a ethical thing against quick fixes and I can assure you that I am not prone to addiction and I do not have any at all at this point. I do not think anyone in my family is addicted to anything...no drugs, no alcohal, no nothing. I know families where nearly everyone is addicted to something and there is some evidence that addiction has some genetic component as well. If something seems like it is threatening to take me or my life in a direction I dislike then I quite simply make up my mind to give it up even if it is not really easy. There is a thread that FDG started that I found rather interesting in that some of the things I thought everyone thought required effort is easy for him and the things that seem harder for him seem very easy for me. It is the same way with addictions and addiction prone behavior, we are not all the same in that respect either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sereno
I fail to see how you are being objective or even how you could be objective given the points you are trying to make. You are relating your experience only... as is the other people in this thread. Your experience as well as the experience of myself and everyone else here is not an objective indicator of anything and it cannot in all fairness be advanced as evidence to prove anything about a type.Quote:
I know ESTj's who cheat, but mostly the ones I've met don't seem to have a cheating mentality. Also, I'm not trying to say that ESTj's are saints and ESTp's devils, I'm just being objective. I have cheated in certain situations where I think that the class was unfair and I did not want to settle for a poor grade.
On your point about your cheating, I have heard ESTjs and others say similar things about their cheating being due to unfairness. If something in my opinion is unfair then I try and remedy the unfairness, I do not consider cheating an ethical option for dealing with unfairness. I really quite far from perfect as I am human and all but I deeply abhor situational ethics/honesty.
And I guess I must be desperate to go quoting from Oldham but these things are listed under the likes of ESTJ.
-deviousness
-evasion or circumvention of rules
-delaying tactics
-the line of least resistance
http://the16types.info/types.php?typename=ESTJ
One of the ESTjs I work with has no real problems admitting that he likes deviousness (he actually uses that word) and under-handed methods. I can easily see why people think he and some other ESTs are passive aggressive.
Sometimes that does happen I fear, now prove that you know what you are talking about. Which part do you disagree with and why exactly, I did not notice your post before for some reason. Hopefully you will say more than ESTjs just don't cheat because I am pretty sure that a lot of them do.Quote:
Originally Posted by aut0
I don't think it's type related, it's a matter of maturity. Ehm, Megan, maybe let's not turn it in an accusation of ESTjs...?;)Quote:
Specially how ESTp's will do anything to get what they want depending on their desperateness. However, he forgot to say that they discuss ways on how to cheat before an exam. A cheating ESTj is hard to come by...
Lol. What a crappy self justification. If a class is hard, either you study more or get a poor grade.Quote:
I have cheated in certain situations where I think that the class was unfair and I did not want to settle for a poor grade.
ESTp = result, narrator, resolute, merry, creation-creating, strategic, irrational, static
ESTj = process, taciturn, judicious, grave, emotion-creating, tactical, rational, dynamic
Hmm...
The question has an inherent problem. Many of the answers in this thread are true if you compare Te-ESTj with Se-ESTp or some other version of the subtypes, but not for the totality of the types...
Some things that are true but not according to the stereotype...
ESTjs are more erratic than ESTps and actually have less systemacy in their lives. It's kind of easy to predict the ESTp stance on things. An ESTj might really jump in any direction. An ESTp carries a certain way of life and does it against adversity. An ESTj will either face head-on or completely avert and ignore a challenge that comes his way. An ESTp has a certain amount of roughness towards his environment in general. The ESTj will be more forcibly courteous in some situations and unapologetically nasty in other situations.
When I think way back to what it was like to be a 9-year old ESTj... I was a loner, the ESTps had a gang. They appreciated sports, I didn't but took school sports more seriously than they did. When playing soccer I was one of the physically weakest guys but I was the best at playing defense because I gave the hardest tackles. (Sorry for the lack of correct terminology, I don't really know soccer jargon). During recess I used to go out to the back of the yard and try to perfect techniques in kicking little stones as far as possible. The ESTps sort of wandered around either participating in other kids' games or ganging up on some one and being bullies. ...
Now on the bullying... This is kind of weird... A few years prior to that, around the age of 5-6 the ESTp crowd started to bully anyone who was friends with girls. I didn't get it at first and I didn't agree with it at first either but then I sort of learned it as a rule. Girls = have to hate them. After that I took a sort of extra care to act nasty towards girls because I felt it was what one was supposed to do. (Oddly enough, I later heard that a number of the girls had no trouble seeing through my actions and had a kind of a crush on me. Others didn't and hated me.)
I acted slightly similarly towards teachers. I followed the teachers' instructions better than most people, which gave me a sort of rep as a teachers' pet and a nerd. Thing is, I wasn't particularly nerdish, but I didn't really get that then. I just happened to be good at school and physically weak. Never mind that I was more interested in climbing trees than the intricacies of some abstract subject... Anyway... back to the subject... I really surprised the class a couple of times since I also had the most prominent fights with teachers. This was again something that I sort of learned from the actions of others... A sort of basic rule that while you have to follow teachers' orders you have to oppose them too. On a basic level it was to me a bit like a fight between social classes. Kind of like a workman considers the boss. You have to follow the orders but then you have to spit at him too. I didn't see anything wrong with that kind of a thing. Thing is... this kind of contradictory attitudes don't exist in ESTps. The ESTps were consistent at trying to take as much power from the teachers to themselves as possible, but they never challenged them directly and I thought they were wimps and cowards at heart for that. That's right, I considered then and I consider now, ESTps as cowards.
My brother too, was an ESTp. We fought a lot. The only person with whom I've physically fought with more than once in my life. There was a basic pattern to it. He'd start some shit like breaking a toy castle that I had made and I'd react extremely strongly and try to beat the shit out of him (something which never worked very well due to age difference). He never got why I cared so much about my handiwork. I never got why he had to be a prick and just cause trouble for others. One particular idea I remember well. I was always complaining that my brother would do anything according to "nature's law" that is, acting like a predator, being a prick for the basic reason that he was stronger than me. Thing is also, afterwards I've had to accept that he never went overboard. He was a consistent prick, but I don't remember him ever doing anything extreme to try to hurt me, just acting consistently abrasive. I on the other hand spent a significant amount of time thinking about ways to kill him and a number of the bullies at school. It wasn't a violent fantasy, it was more of a preparatory technique. I didn't get off on the idea of inflicting pain back, I just thought that if one day one of them went too far I'd have to kill them and do it in an expedient way that couldn't be connected to me. And that was when I was 9, 5 years before I became a complete pacifist and swore off violence completely.
More on the subject of laws... I used to steal stuff, but only from the cookie jar and many years later the liquor cabinet. I felt the basic rule was that parents were supposed to provide for the children and so, if you really wanted something, you had to get it from your parents. If they had trouble recognizing your needs, you had to take action. Again, I didn't routinely steal cookies, not as a basic habit. But if the need for sugar was large enough, I did all I could to get cookies. The same was true for comic books. My brother had them and had banned me from his collection. So... I devised a technique by which I could read stuff in his room while he was away and have time to put the comic book back in its place and get away from his room in the time it took him to close the garage door which was the first audible hint of his coming home and opening the front door by which time he could hear that I was running and something strange was happening. I don't think he caught on to what I was doing. Anyway, I didn't habitually read all of his collection, I didn't think I had a right to do that. Rather there was one particular large comic collection book that was so pretty I had to immerse myself in it time and again. I felt an overriding need and did what I felt I had to do to fulfill it. This attitude of "by any means possible" is pretty darn typical of the ESTj. My brother OTOH didn't really have a particular reason to not allow me to read the comics in the first place. I didn't cause them any harm when I read them in secret and he never noticed it. He just felt he should act strongly in the subject or something like that.
Another thing about me and my brother... In ethical subjects... While he was usually a prick, he would randomly do something kind of nice. He could just for no good reason give me a small gift or invite me to play something or similar. I never did that kind of a thing. I sometimes enjoyed that, but other times I was disgusted by it, it felt like he was trying to write off all the shitty things he did by throwing a bone once a year or something.
To sum some things up.
ESTp do things in a sweeping, large scale manner.
ESTp are systematic, proactive.
ESTp are strictly consistent, more hierarchical.
ESTp are more likely to do individual showy ethical actions.
ESTp are more likely to have consistency of actions and get contradictory ideas.
ESTp are more likely to do sweeping actions and take pride in correct ideas.
ESTp are more likely to make sweeping decisions and take pride in correct ethical stances.
ESTj do push energetically towards singular goals.
ESTj are erratic, reactive.
ESTj make individual situational power-related moves.
ESTj are more likely to be consistently low-key ethical.
ESTj are more likely to have consistency of ideas and do contradictory actions.
ESTj are more likely to have sweeping ideas and take pride in correct actions.
ESTj are more likely to make sweeping ethical stances and take pride in correct decisions.
LSEs like to relax in a quiet, intimate way in a small group of close, understanding friends. SLEs like more chaotic, boisterous "relaxation" in a larger group of people. Or maybe their idea of relaxation is more :Ni: related than :Si: related (engage in some kind of solitary creative activity or have spiritual discussions with people).
That probably doesn't help... Each type has several different ways of "relaxing."
Great, good luck with remedying all of the unfairness in life.Quote:
Megan Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 4:13 am Post subject:
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On your point about your cheating, I have heard ESTjs and others say similar things about their cheating being due to unfairness. If something in my opinion is unfair then I try and remedy the unfairness, I do not consider cheating an ethical option for dealing with unfairness. I really quite far from perfect as I am human and all but I deeply abhor situational ethics/honesty.
Quote:
FDG Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 7:54 am Post subject:
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Quote:
Specially how ESTp's will do anything to get what they want depending on their desperateness. However, he forgot to say that they discuss ways on how to cheat before an exam. A cheating ESTj is hard to come by...
I don't think it's type related, it's a matter of maturity. Ehm, Megan, maybe let's not turn it in an accusation of ESTjs...?;)
Quote:
I have cheated in certain situations where I think that the class was unfair and I did not want to settle for a poor grade.
Lol. What a crappy self justification. If a class is hard, either you study more or get a poor grade.
You are assuming that my classes really weren't unfair and that I'm just make up an excuse to cheat. Well, that's wrong. A class that's unfair to me has the following:
a professor that doesn't teach anything well, the material on the tests are not given in the lectures, the professor doesn't know what he's talking about, the grading system is messed up.
I don't like being forced to study harder for a class that will have no effect in my future, or if it's something that I'm not interested in.Quote:
If a class is hard, either you study more or get a poor grade.
Well, I'm done with this thread.
I'm answering this under the impression that I'm an ESTj; based on my perceived understanding of socionics and the opinions of other people reinforcing my views that I'm not completely delusional in my self-typing.
This is partially true, I drank at social events for the sole purpose of cutting loose. I never drank that often to begin with though, but the last time I drank I blacked out. So I can relate to that as well. After experiencing alcohol poisoning for the first time (and having my friends gf show me a recording of me acting like a drunk), I lost what little interest I had in drinking. I've been repulsed by alcohol for almost 2 years now. That isn't to say that I'm never going to enjoy a glass of wine, I just haven't felt like it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan
I've never had problems with addictions of any kind, not unless you count working out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan
The last time I cheated was in 1998, 6th period Social Studies. I was curious, if I could see myself doing that I would've laughed my ass off. I might as well have just stood up and stolen the next kids paper, I was literally just staring at his paper the whole time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan
That being said, I've incriminated myself on more than one occasion where I didn't have to, for the sole purpose of being honest. It doesn't matter if it's a big or small issue. I don't like lying. I'm terrible at it. I know it, and anyone that knows me, knows it.
Why would someone who enjoys cheating want and appreciate moral guidance? Isn't that a logical fallacy?
ESTjs are supposed to like cheating? Well, I don't like cheating. I go out of my way to try and be what I think is a good person, and one of my biggest fears is that I'm not a good person, I'm just stopping myself from being a bad one. The thought of being like the scumbags I hate disgusts me. So this means that either, A: I'm not an ESTj, or B: You're full of shit. I have more evidence pointing towards me being an ESTj.
Bullshit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan
Really? So you prefer dealing with cheats? That's your ideal dual?Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan
I must say that's quite of bit of information for you to pull out of such a small hole. Aren't you sore? Is there some sort of refractionary period after you access your treasure chest of information? Or have you been accessing it so often that you don't even feel it anymore? Well, at least no one can ever accuse you of being afraid to get your hands dirty.
You have missed my point. It is not about remedying all unfairness in life. I honestly just do not believe that cheating is a good option for dealing with unfairness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sereno
This is not an accusation against ESTjs, it is really not personal and I may say as well that there are ESTjs as well as ESTps who are not self justifying cheaters. However, when it is said here that a cheating ESTj is hard to come by I have to disagree because I do honestly believe that cheating ESTjs are not hard to come by. Sereno here seems to believe that cheating is permissable when there is some unfairness; reading what she has written does sound exactly like the rationale dishonest, passive agressive ESTjs often give as the reasons for their cheating too. Only sometimes others just think the unfairness line is just an excuse to protect their own butts rather than directly dealing with their failings and the lack of perfection which everyone else has. To try and identify ESTps vs ESTjs by saying the latter is just that much more non-cheating than the former is just not true.Quote:
I don't think it's type related, it's a matter of maturity. Ehm, Megan, maybe let's not turn it in an accusation of ESTjs...?;)
If it is ok for you and what you believe to be ethical then fine. That is not ok for me. You are not the only socionics INFj with this atitude to cheating and this only serves to compound the conflict with ESTps. ESTps notice everything including what may be seen as double standards in ethics when things get difficult or "unfair". They do not wish to have their own ethics questioned by people who have what may be seen as questionable ethics under pressure and "unfairness"...indeed they react very badly to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sereno
I agree, this is seriously what I think and there are also other ways to deal with such difficulties without resorting to cheating and dishonesty. Every person always have what they believe to be a good sound reason for doing certain questionable things.Quote:
What a crappy self justification. If a class is hard, either you study more or get a poor grade.
Sereno that sounds like yet more self-justification to me. Maybe you just did not have what it took to deal with those classes bottom-line.Quote:
You are assuming that my classes really weren't unfair and that I'm just make up an excuse to cheat. Well, that's wrong. A class that's unfair to me has the following:
a professor that doesn't teach anything well, the material on the tests are not given in the lectures, the professor doesn't know what he's talking about, the grading system is messed up.
Quote:
If a class is hard, either you study more or get a poor grade.
Again, it is absolutely remarkably how much you sound like a couple ESTjs I know of, like you guys are psychic twins or something. The same sort of efficiency based backwards :Ni: justification for cheating is exactly the way many ESTjs justify their cheating and why ESTj cheats are very common in my experience. Their moral high ground is always that someone else or something else was responsible for making them cheat rather than looking to themselves for the reasons for their behavior.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sereno
I am not sure where he got the idea that we are all prone to addictions. I have never had any addictions of any kind either and there are many other such people.Quote:
I've never had problems with addictions of any kind, not unless you count working out.
I imagine that there are a great many honest ESTjs, it is unlikely that they are all prone to cheating. No where have I said here that all ESTjs are cheaters but I certainly do not believe that they are all honest or morally superior to ESTps in general.Quote:
The last time I cheated was in 1998, 6th period Social Studies. I was curious, if I could see myself doing that I would've laughed my ass off. I might as well have just stood up and stolen the next kids paper, I was literally just staring at his paper the whole time.
That being said, I've incriminated myself on more than one occasion where I didn't have to, for the sole purpose of being honest. It doesn't matter if it's a big or small issue. I don't like lying. I'm terrible at it. I know it, and anyone that knows me, knows it.
For illustration purposes only... some INFps like eating excessive amounts of cream cakes and burgers in the absence of an ESTp helping them with discipline/regulation. When they do find someone who helps them with self discipline they come to understand that they do actually like and appreciate the guidance on self discipline and that they live far healthier, happier and more productive lives with discipline rather than with cream cakes and burgers even though those things gave them pleasure at some point in the past. Self management then becomes better liked and far more respected than cream cakes and burgers. I hope you can see what this has in common with ESTjs and cheating/moral guidance.Quote:
Why would someone who enjoys cheating want and appreciate moral guidance? Isn't that a logical fallacy?
I do not know what evidence you have pointing towards yourself being an ESTj, In all honesty I have never taken note of your presence here before for some reason. However, I can tell you that I do not believe that all ESTjs are cheaters or dishonest therefore I do not think because you are honest and a none cheater that that rules out ESTjs as being a possible type for you.Quote:
I go out of my way to try and be what I think is a good person, and one of my biggest fears is that I'm not a good person, I'm just stopping myself from being a bad one. The thought of being like the scumbags I hate disgusts me. So this means that either, A: I'm not an ESTj, or B: You're full of shit. I have more evidence pointing towards me being an ESTj.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan
I have seen ESTjs be very competitive and suspicious of ENTjs work. This type of atitude is inkeeping with what one might expect from someone who is in a comparative relationship according to socionics. However, as reality does not appear to always support the theory then maybe you could honestly not be suspicious of certain aspects of ENTjs' work behavior assuming again that you are in fact an ESTj.Quote:
Bullshit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan
I just do not work or get along very well with ESTps personally. Even when they look at me I get the feeling they are trying to out stare/ over power/intimidate me or something and I dislike that amongst other things about them. I prefer working with ESTjs for reasons not always directly related to ethics but at the same time I must repeat that I do not think all ESTjs are cheats...just some, if faced with the choice of working with an honest ESTj or an honest ESTp most likely I would chose working with the ESTj.Quote:
Really? So you prefer dealing with cheats? That's your ideal dual?
I am largely against forum "drama" etc seeing it as basically pointless or maybe just not suited to who I am, maybe someone else would appreciate, understand and respond to your last comment better really. At least you explained your disagreement with my position in a way that makes sense now.Quote:
I must say that's quite of bit of information for you to pull out of such a small hole. Aren't you sore? Is there some sort of refractionary period after you access your treasure chest of information? Or have you been accessing it so often that you don't even feel it anymore? Well, at least no one can ever accuse you of being afraid to get your hands dirty.
:lol: Fine, you're right it is pointless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan
This will will be the last post I will make in this thread. I really was going to ignore what you posted, but then, I don't like how you are judging my character based on a few sentences of text and in a public way.
First of all, I am a "he."
Secondly, I never said that everyone will be addicted to something in their life, I specifically said that they are "susceptible." Given the situation, be it from experimentation to intense emotional pain, I do believe that everyone is susceptible to becoming addicted to something that gives a quick fix. I mention experimentation because there are some drugs that apparently affect your brain in such a way that you want to take them over and over again once you try them even a few times. Also, the caffeine you find in your coffee has been linked to dependancy, or at least I've heard that many times. When I mention intense emotional pain, I mean a situation that is so painful that things that you normally would stay away from become tempting, and then when you try them, the high that it makes you feel (if it's enough) will probably make you addicted to it. Good for you if you feel that you will never become addicted to anything, and I do hope that you won't. However, I don't think that it's wise to underestimate things that have happened to other people and/or think that it will never happen to you. One of the only things that I am completely sure of is that life changes and we have to be prepared for when it does.
I am not an ESTj if that is what you are implying. Also, I don't have the above conflict you describe with ESTp's.Quote:
This is not an accusation against ESTjs, it is really not personal and I may say as well that there are ESTjs as well as ESTps who are not self justifying cheaters. However, when it is said here that a cheating ESTj is hard to come by I have to disagree because I do honestly believe that cheating ESTjs are not hard to come by. Sereno here seems to believe that cheating is permissable when there is some unfairness; reading what she has written does sound exactly like the rationale dishonest, passive agressive ESTjs often give as the reasons for their cheating too. Only sometimes others just think the unfairness line is just an excuse to protect their own butts rather than directly dealing with their failings and the lack of perfection which everyone else has. To try and identify ESTps vs ESTjs by saying the latter is just that much more non-cheating than the former is just not true.
Sereno wrote:
I have cheated in certain situations where I think that the class was unfair and I did not want to settle for a poor grade.
If it is ok for you and what you believe to be ethical then fine. That is not ok for me. You are not the only socionics INFj with this atitude to cheating and this only serves to compound the conflict with ESTps. ESTps notice everything including what may be seen as double standards in ethics when things get difficult or "unfair". They do not wish to have their own ethics questioned by people who have what may be seen as questionable ethics under pressure and "unfairness"...indeed they react very badly to it.
You really do have a lot of nerve in judging me. Of course, you don't know anything about me or my experiences, but I suggest that you try and think outside the box before determining others' character. I'm not into comparing people's behavior to types, but since it appears you like doing it, you do strike me as an ISFj in your posts.Quote:
Quote:
What a crappy self justification. If a class is hard, either you study more or get a poor grade.
I agree, this is seriously what I think and there are also other ways to deal with such difficulties without resorting to cheating and dishonesty. Every person always have what they believe to be a good sound reason for doing certain questionable things.
Quote:
You are assuming that my classes really weren't unfair and that I'm just make up an excuse to cheat. Well, that's wrong. A class that's unfair to me has the following:
a professor that doesn't teach anything well, the material on the tests are not given in the lectures, the professor doesn't know what he's talking about, the grading system is messed up.
Sereno that sounds like yet more self-justification to me. Maybe you just did not have what it took to deal with those classes bottom-line.
And I am saying that addiction and addictive behavior is not that simple. I honestly just do not know where you have gotten the idea from that we are all susceptible to addictions. Where is the evidence? On what are you basing this idea of susceptiblity?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sereno
I have said as well that some people do not use quick fixes and some others use of quick fixes does not lead to addiction. There are of course people who experiment to ease emotional pain but not all people do this and not all expirimenters are suscepible to addiction or become addicts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sereno
I do not know what you are basing this on. I have lived in many places and have known several people who have taken drugs for a long time. Some became addicted to it and some people did not. Then there are others who find it easier to quit their addiction than some others.Quote:
I mention experimentation because there are some drugs that apparently affect your brain in such a way that you want to take them over and over again once you try them even a few times.
I must admit that this is one of the rare times when I think I have totally failed to see where someone is coming from even if I disagree with them. I have not underestimated anything nor have I stated that it is impossible that I may one day suffer from an addiction, I have merely said that we are not all equally prone to addictions and some people give up on their addictions easier than some others. I personally have a thing against using sensory pleasures to "solve" problems or ease problems that are not related to a sensation issues. Example, taking drugs will not solve any of the problems I currently have. It will cause me to feel shitty and have less money and I know that so I avoid drugs even if I imagine that they might take my mind of things for a while. I generally prefer solutions to distractions when dealing with my problems. I understand that others see things differently.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sereno
Quote:
This is not an accusation against ESTjs, it is really not personal and I may say as well that there are ESTjs as well as ESTps who are not self justifying cheaters. However, when it is said here that a cheating ESTj is hard to come by I have to disagree because I do honestly believe that cheating ESTjs are not hard to come by. Sereno here seems to believe that cheating is permissable when there is some unfairness; reading what she has written does sound exactly like the rationale dishonest, passive agressive ESTjs often give as the reasons for their cheating too. Only sometimes others just think the unfairness line is just an excuse to protect their own butts rather than directly dealing with their failings and the lack of perfection which everyone else has. To try and identify ESTps vs ESTjs by saying the latter is just that much more non-cheating than the former is just not true.
Sereno wrote:
I have cheated in certain situations where I think that the class was unfair and I did not want to settle for a poor grade.
If it is ok for you and what you believe to be ethical then fine. That is not ok for me. You are not the only socionics INFj with this atitude to cheating and this only serves to compound the conflict with ESTps. ESTps notice everything including what may be seen as double standards in ethics when things get difficult or "unfair". They do not wish to have their own ethics questioned by people who have what may be seen as questionable ethics under pressure and "unfairness"...indeed they react very badly to it.
How could you read the quote I bolded above and think that I am implying that you are an ESTj? I truly do not get that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sereno
Quote:
Quote:
What a crappy self justification. If a class is hard, either you study more or get a poor grade.
I agree, this is seriously what I think and there are also other ways to deal with such difficulties without resorting to cheating and dishonesty. Every person always have what they believe to be a good sound reason for doing certain questionable things.
Quote:
You are assuming that my classes really weren't unfair and that I'm just make up an excuse to cheat. Well, that's wrong. A class that's unfair to me has the following:
a professor that doesn't teach anything well, the material on the tests are not given in the lectures, the professor doesn't know what he's talking about, the grading system is messed up.
Sereno that sounds like yet more self-justification to me. Maybe you just did not have what it took to deal with those classes bottom-line.
Wow, I think you are throwing far too emotions at me at once here but I will try to clarify things a bit and the part in red was not said by me but I agree it could be a possibility. I do not know anything about you and your experiences apart from what you have put here. You have clearly stated that you think it is ok to cheat when faced with what you subjectively see as unfairness. You were the one who said you cheated. You are free to cheat as is everyone else. Other people here have said they stole stuff and what not and even manage to make it seem funny because they were not producing any complex high moral justifications for their actions, we are humans we do crap but to make some sort of show of righting some moral wrong or unfairness is what unsettles me. You cannot stop me from wondering if your cheating due to this so called "unfairness" is fully truthful or that there might not be alternative explanations for your cheating that has nothing to do with an external situation and more to do with who you are and how you view and approach matters. I am saying again that I do not see cheating as a good solution for dealing with unfairness for a number of reasons. I think injustice and unfairness can most often be dealt with without resort to cheating and possible passive agression. I am within my rights to hold this view as you are within your rights to cheat when you consider it necessary as you have stated here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sereno
Also I do not know where I got the impression that you were a girl, I will therefore change the reference from she to he, I consider this a minor matter than can be easily dealt with.
Oh, If I was an ISFj (which is very unlikely) then that would be very fine with me. They do not usually have "situational ethics" and can stand behind the morals they claim to have despite difficulties and that is cool as far as I am concerned. No, I would not feel insulted by being mistaken for an ISFj at all.
estjs are backstabbing lazy control freaks, and estps are hard working and task oriented and dont want to be bothered, but can also be the life of the party while an estj have cobbs up their asses and hate themselves and take it out on everybody else by being feircely passive aggressive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Minde
lefty
enfj
4w5 p.s. i dont even know why im in this section.
It sounds like you were hurt by someone you see as ESTj. Obviously that is not type related.Quote:
Originally Posted by lefty
As for Minde's question,
I am 1w9 LSE, and I assume these types are a little more rare then the prototypical flamboyant E8 and E3 type LSEs.
I would not say I am pushy, just a total hardass when it actually comes to business. I try to be reasonably lenient at times, however. I am definitely not loud.
1) Anyone stating that ESTjs are lazy in comparison with ESTps is an idiot and doesn't know a damned thing. Also anyone who says that ESTps are task oriented, doesn't know a damned thing.
2) It's quite common to be surprised by the actions of people in one's opposing quadra. It's also common to call that backstabbing. I don't know which type is more of a backstabber... ESTp are more likely to commit constant aggression while ESTjs to commit surprising aggression. So that could be called backstabbing I guess. But it's your own foolishness to incite the wrath of an ESTj and then let him in a position where he can cause you harm. Some ESTj may in some situation carry a grudge for a long time. It's common for ESTjs to have a code of honor which stops them from doing harm but then again, it's not a necessary type trait. They might not have one. Also ... the ESTj being dynamic, is for that reason too, far more likely to show surprising changes in different situations, hence more likely to surprise someone in a negative way (ie. something perceived as a backstab). But again, it's an idiot who thinks the ESTp are more likely to be moral...
3) It's easy to mistake an ESFj for an ESTj. Si+Fe is likely to cheat and to take the easy path. The whole point of being ESTj is to not spare trouble from oneself. They will not choose the easy path or they are not acting ESTj. But neither does taking the hard path translate to avoiding trouble by following rules in all situations. Unless the ESTj has choosen the following of those particular rules as the task itself. Anyway, the more Si and the less Te in the ESTj the more likely they are to stray in any particular way. ESTj-Si are quite different from ESTj-Te.
4) AUT0: Appreciating ethical advice does not make oneself ethical. The socionical explanation is that we're strong in Te and Si and our self-worth hangs on the success of those functions. We appreciate ethical advice in comparison to hating logical advice. That does not make us an ethical type. Of course... socionically ethical is way different from the meaning of the real-life word ethical. And that kind of ethics may, or may not be apparent in an individual ESTj according to the particular way their Te has formed.
I can understand this. I for one know I had a really fucking shit teacher for ICT in Year 10-11, and she got the sack when 95% of the class failed (including me). That really was down to poor leadership on her behalf. I know this because we had a supply teacher for a day, and did more work with her than for the whole year with this stupid, chaotic, unteacherlike woman. However, as I've just said, a few people passed, and they worked hard. The teacher tought nothing well, she had no idea what she was talking about, and the grading system was absolutely shite. (I did, btw, go to college, and complete the ICT key skills in about three weeks - that's three days; it was a lesson a week.) You shouldn't have cheated; either you should've worked harder or taken the shit you would have been dealt. The class is not 'unfair' in any way; there's no such things as an unfair class. You can't label an inanimate object as 'unfair'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sereno
I find it very interesting how people react quite badly to footage of their drunkenness. Surely if one enjoys it one enjoy it, and it shouldn't be an issue. Yet it's as if people are actually shameful of how they appear, so they stop.Quote:
Originally Posted by aut0
Which is why they need the EII as a moral figurehead. You're right, there is nothing to suggest the LSE shouldn't cheat. I for one find the descriptions of the LSE off target. They're too MBTT ESTJ-focused. Also, as I explained a few pages back, LSEs want effectiveness, and often couldn't give a shit about 'doing it well' - that is a Enneagram 1 ESTJ thing; and there are different breeds of ESTJs in MBTT. Ghengis Khan was an ESTJ. Does that make him someone who wants to 'do it well'? Of course not. You've picked up on this idea here:Quote:
That is totally not true. I do not at all think cheating ESTjs are hard to come by in the least, ESTj seem to need and appreciate moral guidance IME.
Quote:
I think many of them actually do like cheating (it satisfies their Te desires to get things done quicker)
aut0 - you ever considered SLE?Quote:
I must say that's quite of bit of information for you to pull out of such a small hole. Aren't you sore? Is there some sort of refractionary period after you access your treasure chest of information? Or have you been accessing it so often that you don't even feel it anymore? Well, at least no one can ever accuse you of being afraid to get your hands dirty.
They are indeed. Why do you think SLEs aren't task-orientated, SE?Quote:
Originally Posted by Smilingeyes
Good point. Let's all take note of that, kids.Quote:
It's quite common to be surprised by the actions of people in one's opposing quadra.
Do me a favour and explain how and why.Quote:
ESTj-Si are quite different from ESTj-Te.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Courage
it is type related.
lefy
enfj
4w5
Note that the ESTJ in MBTT is more like the 1w9 or the 3w2 in descriptions than the 8. I think the 8 is much more likely to test ESTJ dichotomically as opposed to functionally, otherwise LSE would be a common type for 8 in socionics, and it isn't really. The descriptions of LSE fit 1w9/3w2 better than the 8, but I don't know about functions. What I do know is that MBTT has royally fucked up its whole method of testing (there's no way you can test dichotomically, and then refer to the functions for types - it doesn't work like that).Quote:
Originally Posted by Courage
Fair enough, I can understand that position.Quote:
Originally Posted by Smilingeyes
I wasn't ashamed of the video, I was only saying funny things. I just didn't like the idea of having no recollection of what I did. The alcohol poisoning played a small part in my repulsion as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezra
Ezra, as you know, I highly value your knowledge of socionics. The thought of garnering the attention of someone so widely known and revered amongst socionists worldwide brings me unsurmountable joy. As such, I would like to respond to you in such a fashion that, I hope, leaves you with no doubts of my type.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezra
Allow me to begin,
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think this is important. smilingeyes, do you mind extrapolating on this? i have mistaken ESFj-Si for ESTj-Si at least once and at times i think it gets a bit blurry, what with the more :Si: involved in either party.Quote:
Originally Posted by Smilingeyes
i would tend to politely disagree with megan on her personal experiences of ESTjs generally cheating and swindling. honestly, this runs entirely counter to what ESTjs are supposed to be about, right? not to say that any given person doesn't make ethical mistakes ever, but being outright rancorous and doing largely crooked things on a rather regular basis doth not an ESTj make, correct?
Want to explain that difference?Quote:
ESTj-Si are quite different from ESTj-Te.
All statements such as "X type likes to cheat," "X type is immoral," "X type is funny," "X type is a backstabber," "X type is narrowminded," etc. are purely subjective and have no meaning outside of the experience of the person saying it, or outside of their own type or quadra, or immediate social group. Each type has its code of honor, criteria for fairplay, moral understanding, etc. Individuals of a certain type must be judged against others of that type, and not by one's own subjective measures.
well, we're at least hoping people are somewhat beyond this. sometimes i think we need a placard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
We have to remember not everyone is on the same page. I do not pay enough attention to the forum to know who is knew or how much experience every person has, myself.
I am not sure how you can disagree with a person's experience but anyway. I do not deal and will never deal much in the whole what this type is about or supposed to be thing. In my mind this type of thinking leads to the persistence of stereotypes which are not usually well challenged because someone will say XXXx type values this so they would never do good or bad like that. Some types who we associate here with certain great or bad qualities have representatives who are just not like that. There are ESTjs who are caring, great caregivers, supportive of the underdog etc but there are also some who are just not like that at all and can easily be seen as devious, consistently focused more on efficiency than honesty and so forth. Both of these types are still ESTj because :Te: / :Si: are their dominant functions, I really have no objective reason to believe that the ones with better qualities will be more common. What exactly function wise would I based this belief on? Neither Te nor Si automatically confers morally and ethics on a person as far as I know. Personality and morality are not strictly type related. Socionics is not a theory of one's personality nor morality and I do not know why people are stuck on seeing it as such. There are consistently shitty, dishonest people of every single type and from every single quadra. The only thing I can say to support the idea that ESTjs tend to not be immoral is that most people in general of any type from any quadra are not likely to be immoral in any case.Quote:
Originally Posted by implied
no, because i don't really buy that ethical types never do "bad things" either, i'm on the very same page as you as far as that's concerned -- it's not any more right to assume that the ESFj or even the INFj will be less likely to swindle than the ESTj just by nature of being F. that's just as much crap as claiming that in your own experiences that more ESTjs are swindlers and crooks than not. the only reason i back that i do believe that an ESTj may be less likely is that they are the dual of the INFj, and thus they're subconsciously, according to theory, looking for someone with some combination of :Fi: and :Ne:, not :Ni: and :Fe: to gloss things over and create a positive emotional atmosphere above anything else. let me repeat that i do not believe that :Fi: is strictly morals, either, but i understand that ESTjs aren't really in requirement of super strict moral policing. maybe anndelise has more to say on this, she defines it something loosely like attraction vs repulsion, but that's debatable as well. anyhow, we can compare experiences all day long and have completely different perceptions still, but in my own experiences, the biggest "crimes" i have really seen out of ESTjs are these basically inconsequential :Si: crimes where they do stupid shit when they get drunk. my impression strictly from reading the text is that they are not dudes who get a huge kick out of beating their wives to a pulp or cheating on tests routinely. no one is really trying to idealize ESTjs here imo. i still don't think your one ESTj friend (who, we don't even know if he's ESTj - we don't have piles of proof that you "know what you're talking about" either) is a really good example of the whole.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan
Let's see. This demonstrates pure bullshit.Quote:
Originally Posted by aut0
It hurts my feelings when I try to help you, and you reject me and my ideas. Please help me to help you and help yourself. Do you understand that this is how I react to what you say, and that different people react differently to what you say? I can't take it when you say things like to me. It doesn't make sense to me. It just feels like you disrespect me, and the one thing I despise more is loss of respect.
I'm sorry I hurt your feelings princess, here, I bought you this tiara to go with that pretty pink dress you're wearing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezra
Kind of funny that you're using Fe though, which comes off as manipulation to me. Sorry, maybe I wasn't supposed to catch the "If you're LSE, you'll be annoyed by this" line before you edited it out.
FAIL
This proves you're not Fi Dual seeking. You evidently don't give a shit when you genuinely have hurt someone by rejecting them. Fi PoLR.Quote:
Originally Posted by aut0
SLE it is. Welcome to the clan, brother.
Don't ever try and claim you're LSE again you motherfucker.
My boss is ESTj. He used to be suspicious of me when I were able to work very fast (in emergency situations), but nowadays after an year of knowing each other, he trusts me, knowing that I can get results very quickly and he has to adjust the details or tell me what I have missed/have to change. Still, it wasn't that easy at the start.
:lol: The truth is finally revealed! I don't know how I could've missed it for so long, and it's all thanks to you Ezra. Your brazen knowledge of socionics has saved me! I can see now, that this is why you're so revered amongst your peers. Never again will I doubt you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezra
Well done; you're beginning to understand the fundamentals.Quote:
Originally Posted by aut0
Three things, in the order that they appeared in my head:
1) Wow, I think this is the first time an old thread of mine got resurfaced by someone other than me. Interesting.
2) Character is not the same as personality. The way that the goodness in a person manifests may be related to type, but not the presence or absence of good.
3)There may be non-socionic related reasons for that. One in particular comes to mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Smilingeyes
I agree, I do not think ethical types are necessarily any more moral than logical types.Quote:
Originally Posted by implied
Well I actually never said most of them are likely to be swindlers and crooks. If you have seen that in any of my posts then please show me where. I really cannot say most ESTjs are crooks are swindlers but some most certainly are. The point is that someone here in comparing ESTjs to ESTps have said that ESTps are more likely to be cheaters and that ESTjs crooks are hard to come by and I will say again that that is just not true. Why should it be? and based on my experiences now working in an environment with a lot of ESTjs I can see that some but not all of them tend to perticipate in certain types of dishonest actions for efficiency and convienece purposes. For some reason I honestly did not expect this type of thing from them especially because they often seem to want to be seen as nice or good people on the surface.Quote:
that's just as much crap as claiming that in your own experiences that more ESTjs are swindlers and crooks than not.
IMO :Fe: especially with :Ni: is not solely or even about creating a positive atmosphere though this can be debated. I think it is one of the stereotypes created by the :Fe: hating/misunderstanding crowd. Almost any :Fe: person here will tell you that delta types are often really shocked when they try to address uncomfortable subjects in their presence(ask Kristina). A lot about :Fi: is about the unspoken and unexpressed. It is actually the opposite of what some people here believe, :Fe:/ :Ni: types tend to be more expressive with their feelings and just seem more willing to deal with uncomfortable issues openly. :Fe: / :Si: tends to be a bit different IME.Quote:
the only reason i back that i do believe that an ESTj may be less likely is that they are the dual of the INFj, and thus they're subconsciously, according to theory, looking for someone with some combination of :Fi: and :Ne:, not :Ni: and :Fe: to gloss things over and create a positive emotional atmosphere above anything else.
The problem here is that there are some INFjs who are dishonest and cheating too. It is not that all INFjs are pure and innocent and therefore cannot be the dual of cheats. Having :Fi:/ :Ne: does not mean that a person will be honest. At least one description of INFjs says that cheating is actually something some of them do even though they might not even be good at it. Here there is a popular belief that all INFjs are just truly innocent and honest and the poor defenceless conflictor of the big bad ESTp bully when this also is not true. I have been coming into a few (again not all) INFjs who are into the idea that at least one INFj here has blatantly expressed and that is that if something seems hard and unfair then it is ok to break the rules. I speculate that the :Se: polr seems to make some INFjs very unresilient under difficulties and hardships and so due to a combination of :Si: and :Ne: values they will often try and find a comfortable way around the obstacles which frequently results in what others even from delta and surrounding quadras see as dishonest. Now I know that some people here will disagree with this but it is really something that I have seen, it is not personal. I honestly just do not see the point of us coming here everyday making villians out of some people and angels out of others when there is no basis in theory or in reality for this. Nothing new and productive is going to come out of holding on to some of these baseless even silly stereotypes/ideas.Quote:
let me repeat that i do not believe that :Fi: is strictly morals, either, but i understand that ESTjs aren't really in requirement of super strict moral policing. maybe anndelise has more to say on this, she defines it something loosely like attraction vs repulsion, but that's debatable as well.
There is a lot of good and a lot of bad that texts/descriptions do not say about the types, then I do not think there has even been a beta socionist to give another perspective and understanding of that quadra and delta. There is at least one person here who has had attempts made by an ESTjs to physically abuse them. I know of another person who I strongly believe to be ESTj who abuses his wife and then buys her flowers and candy and continues pretending to be this marvellous carer and supportive husband. These are the sort of ESTjs who have the tendency to believe that nobody should say no to them because I guess in a way they were created for people who would probably not say no to them much or ever. Again, It is more likely that most ESTjs are not mean and abusive but some of them are and I see no point and truth in believing that they are all just great and rarely ever do wrong or that immoral ESTjs are rare compared to immoral other types. They are just not morally superior to any other type. Whether or not the people being typed as ESTjs are really such it should nevertheless be evident that they are in no way ethically superior to any other type based even on the theoretical alone.Quote:
anyhow, we can compare experiences all day long and have completely different perceptions still, but in my own experiences, the biggest "crimes" i have really seen out of ESTjs are these basically inconsequential :Si: crimes where they do stupid shit when they get drunk. my impression strictly from reading the text is that they are not dudes who get a huge kick out of beating their wives to a pulp or cheating on tests routinely. no one is really trying to idealize ESTjs here imo. i still don't think your one ESTj friend (who, we don't even know if he's ESTj - we don't have piles of proof that you "know what you're talking about" either) is a really good example of the whole.
My belief that some ESTjs are cheats is not based on my experience with one ESTj. Like I said, I work in a kind of caregivery enviroment which has a lot of ESTjs and ESFjs and the most senior of my three bosses is an ESTj who happens to be an honest, caring human IMO. Some ESTjs do stupid shit even when they are not drunk and I really would not think that being drunk is a good enough reason for perpetuating crap upon others anyway. To understand where some ESTjs go wrong you have to look at the alignment of all their funtions IMO. They have an :Ni: polr and that tends to be the source of a lot of the stupid dishonest things they do because they just do not see future consequences that well and when you try to show it to them they often just shot you down with arguments that basically amounts to "nobody knows what will happen in the future". That coupled with what I guess must be an :Te: drive for efficiency and an :Si: need for convience plus an hidden agenda need "to be perfect" often places them in difficult moral positions. Even if one thinks that :Fi: / :Fe: is linked to morality, ESTjs do not have strong :Fi: and they do not value :Fe: , they are actually seeking :Fi: precisely because they value it but do not have good use of it themselves. The way I have found to deal with my manager when he appears to be about to do some stupid shit is not to mention future consquences to him but to provide some sort of attractive alternative to what he wants to do. My guess is that this would be something like what an INFj would provide for him to help him stay out of trouble and protect the polr.Quote:
i have really seen out of ESTjs are these basically inconsequential :Si: crimes where they do stupid shit when they get drunk.
Megan, a lot of what you wrote makes sense. My insults to you were because I felt like what you wrote was a personal attack on my character. Sorry about going off on you.
I'm going to agree that it's common sense that any type can be good or bad, it makes no sense that one type will always do the right thing and another the wrong, there are far too many variables involved for that to be accurate. I didn't feel like seeing that when I was pissed off though, I tend to have a one track mind when I'm angry.
Megan, you just like to keep spitting out nonsense about other people don't you? I know I said that I wasn't going to keep posting here, but I underestimated your capabilities of making up things.
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The problem here is that there are some INFjs who are dishonest and cheating too. It is not that all INFjs are pure and innocent and therefore cannot be the dual of cheats. Having / does not mean that a person will be honest. At least one description of INFjs says that cheating is actually something some of them do even though they might not even be good at it. Here there is a popular belief that all INFjs are just truly innocent and honest and the poor defenceless conflictor of the big bad ESTp bully when this also is not true. I have been coming into a few (again not all) INFjs who are into the idea that at least one INFj here has blatantly expressed and that is that if something seems hard and unfair then it is ok to break the rules. I speculate that the :Se: polr seems to make some INFjs very unresilient under difficulties and hardships and so due to a combination of and values they will often try and find a comfortable way around the obstacles which frequently results in what others even from delta and surrounding quadras see as dishonest. Now I know that some people here will disagree with this but it is really something that I have seen, it is not personal. I honestly just do not see the point of us coming here everyday making villians out of some people and angels out of others when there is no basis in theory or in reality for this. Nothing new and productive is going to come out of holding on to some of these baseless even silly stereotypes/ideas.
You seem to tell people to "show me where I've posted" such and such as a way of claiming consistency, when you really don't apply that to yourself don't you? I NEVER said that it's ok to break the rules, even though the "rules" can be something to question. I mentioned that I "have" cheated when I thought the class was unfair, and the only reason I said that was that even though I believe that ESTps are cheaters, it doesn't mean that an INFj like myself has not done so. Also, I don't look down upon ESTps for this or say that they are "bad," before you assume this too. Then you go on in the paragraph above (referring to me), saying that the :Se: polr does this and that it makes some INFj's unresilient under difficulties and hardships, and that it's the reason I cheated? You are coming off as very ignorant. Also, those people who judge what I did was wrong without even knowing any circumstances should mind your own business (I had a stronger phrase though for this). What pisses me off is how you, Megan, judge me for having being honest about something I have done as if you haven't done anything wrong yourself. I just have the balls to say it. I would be so embarrased in judging someone when I have done wrong as well. You really do have a serious issue in that you underestimate others, and that you think you are superior in your "ethics." I don't lecture others (only advice) and I expect the same, if not, then I fail to respect you.
Btw, I cannot relate to the :Se: polr thing you mentioned. Might be if you're talking about physical hardship, which even then, applies more to when I was a child. Also, all the cold-hearted , analytical way of how you talk about other people really annoys me. It's as if you're exaggerating it on purpose.
think i'm in the boat with aut0 on this. reading your first few posts sounds like a straight up character attack. i mean after a certain point whatever is useful about these stories just regresses to office gossip bullshit. i figure you wanted to present an alternate point of view based on your experience with the people you've typed as ESTjs. i mean, people do bad things and are far from infallible, for god's sake. i just think that many pages of posts could have been simplfied down to "people make mistakes," or "people of many types are capable of doing vile things," instead of including a long story on ESTj researcher. although that certainly helped pack a punch. sometimes a hammer works better than a tap on the shoulder though!
Quote:
Originally Posted by implied
Well what it sounds like and what it is are two different things, If you are ESTj or maybe even INFj/delta then I guess it could be seen as an attack. I maybe crazy but not crazy enough yet to assume that the whole entire ESTj population are a bunch of crooks and cheaters. I will not however back down from my position that there are indeed ESTjs who lie and cheat, I also do not believe that ESTjs are any less likely to cheat than ESTps though they may do it for different reasons. Both types feel justified and do defend themselves when they have done something "outside the rules". Most people who do something dishonest usually have what they see as a valid reason for their behavior. If you have some argument beyond the whole ESTjs are not supposed to be like that thing or that I am a very mean person who is attacking the poor little ESTjs then I am willing to listen.
I am glad that you can be objective enough to now see that my arguments and experiences were not meant as a personal attack on you or the whole entire ESTj population. And yes it is only common sense that every type has representatives that do dishonest things some times. I have never nor will never see delta types as being morally better than any other types though some (not all) deltas seem very invested in seeing themselves that way and certain people who probably have not given enough thought to the issue believe and spread that idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by aut0
Sereno, I do not know if you have noticed but the very things you have accused me of are the very things you are now doing...look very closely. This is funny/ironic because the very thing that you came into this thread accusing ESTps of is the same that you in your own words admitted doing. Note that I may have questioned your actions (I sometimes even question my own actions too) but up until now I still have no desire to attack you as a person or your whole character. I wonder if you might be willing to do the same for me, it really does not matter much either way. You are probably proving my point as to the character of some INFjs more than you even know.
hkkmr, I more or less share your observations on the ESTj/ESTp reason for cheating issue.
Oh and implied, I hope you do not take any of my disagreements with you personally either, they are not meant as such.
Megan, have you considered the posibility that it may be correct, that LSE-s are far less likely to be "cheats" and SLE-s are very likely to be "cheats", in that it's deltas that establish the criteria for determining who is and isn't a "cheat", by which, SLE-s by being themselves end up being inferior, or "cheats"? That way it makes perfect sense that those who make the rules end up being in a better position. It's like, how SLE-s might say LSE-s are boring, not fun and so on. By their criteria the LSE-s really are boring, not fun etc.
It is interesting that you should say that because this is one possiblity that floated about in my mind but one I did not directly address, and hkkmr mentioned. Yes, if deltas have made the "rules" then it is true that SLE's would probably not like to follow them. The same can be said for beta "rules" and delta compliance. However, some ESTjs do break rules which even people in their own quadra appear to regard as unethical as well. There are "rules" which people of both quadra might regard as worthwhile yet some people of those quadras just do not follow at times. There are perhaps very few if any universal rules and ideas of ethics/morality and that has to be taken into consideration as well. However, as one example only I think most honest people of both delta and beta would regard what the ESTj doctor did which basically amounted to falsifying evidence on behalf of a drug company's product as unethical. Though maybe some deltas would be better able to identify with his reasons even if though don't agree or support it. That last sentence is only speculation though.Quote:
Originally Posted by snegledmaca
It would be interesting to find out if other deltas feel like Sereno that if an exam or course is hard/unfair then cheating becomes an option to pursue. My guess is that there are people from both delta and beta who would see that as not a viable/good option as well as those who would pursue "cheating" to to deal with the problem.
Well, for contrast, I, as a beta, see cheating on tests as an exercise in resourcefulness. I personally don't cheat but find the various complex methods and their variations people develop thoroughly amusing and a tribute to cleverness. They cross the point when it stops being just cheating and you really have to be truly skilled and able to pull off what they did. Personally, I find cheating on tests in school as something entirely normal and am always amused by how westerners or people from the far east consider it as something horrid. There is no inherent goodness or wrongness about it. The only person you could possibly fuck up is yourself so by cheating you are accepting the consequences and are basically exercising you liberty, freedom of choice. But that could be because of my culture where the mentality is cheat but don't get caught.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megan
Megan
Obviously, that is the whole reason I said it. Can you please actually read these lines? This is my last attempt at you understanding what I wrote:Quote:
Sereno, I do not know if you have noticed but the very things you have accused me of are the very things you are now doing...look very closely. This is funny/ironic because the very thing that you came into this thread accusing ESTps of is the same that you in your own words admitted doing.
--Quote:
I NEVER said that it's ok to break the rules, even though the "rules" can be something to question. I mentioned that I "have" cheated when I thought the class was unfair, and the only reason I said that was that even though I believe that ESTps are cheaters, it doesn't mean that an INFj like myself has not done so. Also, I don't look down upon ESTps for this or say that they are "bad," before you assume this too.
Question your own actions and not mine, unless you have an honest desire to understand them. Even so, my friends and family are the only ones who I trust for this. By the way, it is obvious that there are always exceptions to the rule. Trying to prove that some people are different from the norm is redundant. Will you find INFj that are cheaters? Sure. Will you find INFj that are murderers? Though unlikely, there is still the possiblity. I don't know what is to gain in trying to prove that there are exceptions to the rule.Quote:
Note that I may have questioned your actions (I sometimes even question my own actions too) but up until now I still have no desire to attack you as a person or your whole character. I wonder if you might be willing to do the same for me, it really does not matter much either way. You are probably proving my point as to the character of some INFjs more than you even know.
I agree entirely with this statement, unless by cheating you mess other people in some way. Also when I have cheated, its always with someone I know, and we help each other out. By the way, I'm not trying to justify my cheating.Quote:
snegledmaca Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:10 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Megan wrote:
It would be interesting to find out if other deltas feel like Sereno that if an exam or course is hard/unfair then cheating becomes an option to pursue.
Well, for contrast, I, as a beta, see cheating on tests as an exercise in resourcefulness. I personally don't cheat but find the various complex methods and their variations people develop thoroughly amusing and a tribute to cleverness. They cross the point when it stops being just cheating and you really have to be truly skilled and able to pull off what they did. Personally, I find cheating on tests in school as something entirely normal and am always amused by how westerners or people from the far east consider it as something horrid. There is no inherent goodness or wrongness about it. The only person you could possibly fuck up is yourself so by cheating you are accepting the consequences and are basically exercising you liberty, freedom of choice. But that could be because of my culture where the mentality is cheat but don't get caught.
I think that it is dumb to think that an ESTp will not cheat in a situation where they cannot be caught. And, if they don't cheat, I think it is more in proving that they can do it, rather than it is "unethical" for them to do it. Maybe ESTps should try and comment on this thread.
yeah, i agree with you. even in europe (spain) i got earfuls of "everybody cheats, what on earth is wrong with you?" from other students. there is a point where you really /can't/ cheat on tests and things, though. for instance, some of the tests i grade to test english as a second language are pretty much impossible to cheat on and any "faking" you could possibly do is so obvious it's embarrassing and nearly insulting to the intelligence of the people in control of the tests. i think if someone pulled off cheating and got away with it, i'd be almost proud hah.Quote:
Originally Posted by snegledmaca
megan -- smilingeyes made some really good points a few pages back and you didn't really address them. what's convincing evidence outside the theory? what can i do besides give you counterexample after counterexample of "ESTjs i have known" that are considered upstanding and moral members of the community versus ESTps who are not? and if they're so seasoned in cheating, how would we know anyway? my guess is that they would have honed it into some sort of science that they do without thinking about heh. you said this guy did cheated forever before anyone ever found out. i mean, if you're going to ignore whatever you disagree with and not even consider that other people may have different views on this for various reasons, it's not even worth arguing. i don't even have a clue as to what you consider "cheating" or "immoral" or "unethical" behavior and what you consider ethical -- maybe more examples of what sorts of cheating you're talking about that is common among ESTjs vs ESTps. as this is such a potentially broad topic, i don't think it's a realistic task to ask someone to prove you wrong heh. quite honestly i'd rather spend my time reading babyraping jokes in the beta forum than proving this.
Justify? You act as if cheating is inherently wrong. Cheating is an action with consequences (As in, it's situational) and to justify the act you have to only justify the consequence of the action. Or what I am trying to say is that each cheating is unique and specific to a give situation (As are all actions with consequence, not a single action is inherently wrong (Well, not unless it with certainty caries a "bad" consequence)). I guess you could say I'm an advocate of situational ethics :lol:.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sereno
I also think it's admirable that you tried to help your classmates. (Here that's the norm, helping people, but I think there it's an act of character)
No, dumb is to cheat when it caries active consequences upon others. In situations where the consequences are restricted solely to themselves I'd say it's neither dumb nor not dumb but more of a situational thing. If the person is prepared the negative consequences outweigh the positive so it could be said it's actually dumb to cheat while if the person will fail with their inherent knowledge then not cheating could be said to be dumb.Quote:
I think that it is dumb to think that an ESTp will not cheat in a situation where they cannot be caught. And, if they don't cheat, I think it is more in proving that they can do it, rather than it is "unethical" for them to do it. Maybe ESTps should try and comment on this thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by implied
This reminds me of a friend of mine and his cheating techniques. He'd get away with the craziest stuff. He once glues some stuff to the bottom of his shoe and kind of lifted his leg over his other leg so that the guy next to him could get the answers. But yeah, there are some classes that are nearly impossible to cheat. Oh, I just remembered the most bizarre and I couldn't believe it moment when cheating. SO we had the test and just before any test I like to go through my notebooks and cram just a little more into that temporary memory. In class that is. And she handed me the test probably expecting me to remove my notebook. But I didn't. I kept it open. And through the test I would read the questions and browse through the notebook and find the answer. But this wasn't the bizarre part, the bizarre part was that she was sitting not a meter in front of me. I was in the first bench and her bench and mine were joined and I was facing her directly with nothing obstructing the filed of view. And she kept constantly looking through the classroom warning others and at other times staring at this spot in front of her. I simply could not believe it. Lol, thank good for inferior sensing.
Hey! Offensive! And besides the biggest "babyrape" genre protagonist is DJ so... it's you gammas that are the "wicked ones" :wink: .Quote:
quite honestly i'd rather spend my time reading babyraping jokes in the beta forum than proving this.
Fear the wrath of the Humanitarian.Quote:
Originally Posted by snegledmaca
Summary
Sereno, I cannot respond to you at this time you seem to me to be very hostile, personal and emotional and I do not think we are going to get anywhere while I am seeing you like that. This topic is not really that important quite frankly.
implied, please try and read this post carefully as it summarizes what I am trying to say that might not be very clear to you as yet, I have no reason to believe that you are an unreasonable person so I guess I have not found a way to communicate with you well. I would never draw upon the whole "ESTjs I know" argument to prove anything. I merely mentioned that I knew dishonest ESTjs and provided only one or two examples of such, time and space would not permit me to provide more examples and I do not even believe that the main relevance of what I am trying to say rests upon those two people who probably aren't even ESTjs anyway though I strongly think they are based their excessive and dominant use of Te/Si. My typing is beside the point as common sense (according to Aut0 :) ) would indicate that people of every type from every quadra do crap things from time to time. That of course includes ESTjs.
Now I came into this thread not to discuss the morality of cheating, the causes of addiction or any other such things though the discussion led down that path at times and like I said we all do dishonest things which are perhaps far worst than cheating in an exam but what I am unsettled by is what I subjectively see as a lack of personal responsibility for ones actions and the blaming of external conditions for what one does that is "dishonest" and self-destructive. I merely said in other words that the external conditions would not drive everyone to cheat in a difficult exam therefore the variable that is most likely to have caused the behavior is oneself and one's own internal personal view of morality and cheating and even ones ability to cope with difficulties and what ones sees as unfair. I cannot see how any person can live up to their own morals or rules all the time but I also believe that we must take responsiblity for the things we do and any addictions we might have etc and not blame external conditions for them or even make excuses for them. This is only my personal view of those matters.
The main argument is that Sereno here wrote that ESTps are often cheats and that ESTj cheats are hard to come by as a way to differentiate the two types as per the topic's creator's original question. I am saying and I will continue to say that this is a very poor method for distinguishing the two types. I am also saying that there is no basis for such an assumption or judgement based on socionics theory or even my own reality and that of others. I have tried to establish from you what would cause ESTjs to be less likely to cheat and what you have said is that ESTjs are not suppose to be the type of people that do that.
My mind was open to be challenged on my view that there is no real reason why ESTps would be more dishonest than ESTjs and I hoped to have an alternative view forwarded that would would be devoid of stereotypes and show theoretically or realistically why it would be that ESTjs are just more honest than ESTps. To that effect sneg and hkkmr at least made interesting points though not necessarily supportive of ESTjs or ESTps.
The whole argument that ESTjs are not supposed (the exact word you used)to be like that just does not seem like a very good argument to me and so I am continuing to hold the view that there is no real reason or theoretical function based evidence pointing to the possibility or reality that ESTjs are less likely to cheat than ESTps. Thats all really.
:lol: And what do you think our wrath would look like?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezra
Anyway, I've been accused of cheating. Not for breaking rules, but for using them to my own advantage. (Usually in some sort of game or competitive situation - when I do similar things elsewhere people don't usually mind since I'm often doing it for their benefit.) I don't enjoy having my morals judged, so I immediately stop trying to do whatever it was I was trying to do, baffled, mildly offended, and losing whatever enthusiasm I had.
I really don't know to be honest. My picture of the EII is now non-existent. I think EIIs are so rare in this world. My dad is either EII or IEI. This friend of mine I thought was EII, but it turns out he's an IEI. Actually, I'm going to get people to type my parents now. Have a look.Quote:
Originally Posted by Minde
Will you do me a favour, Minde? Tell me some EII celebrities.
[GVideo]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4430762344195533410&q=bear+roaring&total=37&start= 0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0[/GVideo]Quote:
Originally Posted by Minde
Probably a little scarier IRL, you can't feel as safe in person.
That bear is so cute!!! : )Quote:
Originally Posted by aut0
No kidding! Scary? Poor thing looks like he's entertaining a dentist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Christy B
I'd love to, but I don't think I'm the best person for the job. For one, I'm not interested in enough celebrities to know their personalities. For another, I'm not confident yet typing even the people I do know well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezra
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christy B
Yes, yes, I kind of wanted to scratch his nose for him when he paused the second time, that's besides the point though, you guys are ruining the whole EII wrath = angry grizzly bear. Grrr. :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Minde
ahh, come one now baby don't be so hard on yourself! :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Smilingeyes
Megan, yeah it is pretty dumb to be arguing over something like this. No hard feelings :wink:.
My ESTj boss yesterday (msn convo)
ESTj: YOU ALWAYS FORGET TO DO X DAAAAAMMM YOU'LL DRIVE ME CRAZY!!
Me: I though I did it...
ESTj: (inspects). Oh. It may seem impossible, but I actually was wrong. Sorry.
:lol:
:lol: :lol: :lol: This looks very familiar.Quote:
Originally Posted by FDG
I'd imagine an 8w9 would have that kind of wrath. After all, Riso & Hudson have labelled the 8w9 "The Bear".Quote:
Originally Posted by aut0
yeah, I guess we finally agreed upon something :shock: .Quote:
Originally Posted by Sereno
ESTps tend to come off as quite relaxed. Due to the manner in which they process their environment and emit natural :Se: "control," they rarely come off as active and or 'all over the place' as many EJ temperments.Quote:
Originally Posted by polikujm
That I can agree with, but if an SLE just so happened to be insanely energetic, would you have the guts to call him an LSE? Rhetorical question.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeAnte
No. I lack the courage.Quote:
Originally Posted by polikujm
Focus on exerting external control and unity/discord with immediate surrounding environment + old school Delta Aristocratic attitude is all over this description. Si subs can be quite socially amiable and easy to talk to, so long as their own "flow" or way of doing things isn't being abruptly interrupted. :Si:/:Te: functions don't always manifest in stereotypically "agreeable" or "nice" ways either.
This is also my experience, to a t. I can definitely see how an LSE would just tend to drain me of all my energy and probably make me feel very inadequate also.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica
Mimosa, I'm also currently debating between SLE and LSE for this guy I just met. My first impression when meeting him was "whoo an SLE!", but I'm not sure anymore. I'm aware of the tendency to find your conflictor enticing at first, so I dunno. Though tbh currently I can't make up my mind on whether I find him boring/dry or just comfortable. Eh, I guess neither one is a good thing for me due to my tendency to need that ongoing feeling of being challenged. Just a nice guy gets old pretty fast, though I appreciate the intention of course. I do feel like I can be myself when talking to him, but I'm not quite sure if he's just paying me lip service, which I hate. To be fair, I've only seen him in person once (when we met). Every other interaction has been over the phone.
If I can summon the energy to do so, I'll make a thread about him. :indifferent2:
That is totally LSE. My mom is one and she used to be proud of her irresponsibility too. Like there was this situation when I was about 8 years old and none of my parents were at home. I cut my hand really really badly and decided I should go to the doctors alone and not call to any of them because my mom would shout at me for interrupting her work and I didn't knew where my father was(he was supposed to be at home). And my health center was about 20minutes from my house by bus. I went there all in blood. My doctor was shocked. And guess what my mom thought about this situation? She bragged to everyone what an independent child she has.
If he has a more laid-back, easy-going vibe: then SLE.
If he has a more frentic, hectic vibe, then LSE.
It sounds like he's my conflictor though. AHH!
I wish my "sample size" of people wasn't so small. He's not like the one LSE I know, but then again, I only know one LSE. And I don't know any SLEs, though there's something grating about seeing the imagined person in the description next to an imagined image of SLE, as though they really don't match.
Also with the LSE I know and the two ESEs (possibly three), I haven't encountered the "toughness" attitude before. If I were to cut myself I know how they would all respond.
ESE1: "Ohhhhhhh, did you hurt yourself?" (said really dramatically) *rushes to get first aid and becomes a busy body* etc.
ESE2: *trusts me to find bandaids on my own* says something about how I need to be more careful, but not in a critical way.
LSE: criticizes me for being careless, is very efficient and calm while getting the needed supplies, or directing me to... doesn't do anything that makes matters more complicated. Aside from the criticism that rather stings, it's painless.
They would all be appalled if I needed medical assistance and walked to the hospital on my own... though the LSE would criticize me for being stupid.
The LSE scoffs at people who worship "toughness" and do what he sees as careless and stupid things because it's "tough." He has snide and cynical things to say about such people. However, he also would go directly to neighbors who are bothering him just like in the example (without cussing though). He gets rather anal about some things, like if vehicles are parked in bike lanes, he will actually pull over and tell the person in the car off if they're nearby. If there's nothing he can do he'll be like "man, I hate it when people do that!" Anyway, it's really a "sense of civic responsibility." Actually my ESE mom tells people off immediately as well, but in her case it's more a temper thing... if she's irate enough (and she can get so easily), it will all come out in a storm that doesn't relent until others see it her way. It's actually extremely effective. And it can die down just as suddenly as it arose. Also even though it's incredibly stormy, she doesn't seem really lose control during it. Like I would be afraid to lose my temper because I would be afraid of losing control... It wouldn't be me wielding strong emotions, but strong emotions wielding me... or that's what I would be afraid of. The times I've lost my temper, I've rather regretted it.
Anyway there's just this subculture of driving 4-wheelers and wearing wife-beater tank tops, and shooting ones rifle, and acting all macho, etc. And BBQ-ing in the summer, and eating lots of red meat, and having ones wife cook them dinner, etc. Congratulating your kids when they're rude. So on. Fixing cars. Watching sports and wrestling on TV. Acting like a mix of Hulk Hogan and Chuck Norris or something. I maintain that being in a motorcycle gang is cooler. Like a gang of men in black leather who ride together all over all the highways, and seem all macho but they're really softies and not actually macho at all.
I definity agree with you on this, ESTp hold back because they value/have, :Ti:,:Fe:,:Ni:. Not necessarily afraid of the moment but they are aware of the consequences.Quote:
Originally Posted by aixelsyd
What are some of the main differences between these two types?
What does Se/Ti and Te/Si look like?
Thanks. :)
Hmmm, let's see... Se/Ti is irrational and therefore more "flexible" in a way, energized when things don't go according to plan. Te/Si likes to do things by the books or at least follow their plan along in a more linear way.Quote:
Originally Posted by matilda
Se/Ti is much more willing to break the rules if he sees fit. He's the one who determines what rules he wants to follow and will disregard the rules of others unless they line up with his own agenda. (heh, way more fun)
Te/Si likes to have everything "just so". My Te/Si uncle for example, notices when anything in his house is out of place. The vase has to be in the right place on the mantle, the car must be parked a particular way in the garage for him to be happy--that sort of thing. The two Te/Si guys I'm most familiar with are both like this. Se/Ti just doesn't value Si things as much and can overlook them in favor of forward motion toward a larger goal.
Te/Si can get into longer discussions about details whereas Se/Ti is more about the bottom line.
I don't know if I'm describing it very well. but anyway! :)
yes. I've seen this also. LSEs are more steady for certain. (steady but boring :O)Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinocchio
Also, SLEs might be more into stuff like smoking a great cuban cigar or drinking the high-end cognac. lol
Removed at User Request
right. the other thing is, while LSEs are more about economy, SLEs are willing to splurge on what they value. My SLE friend looooooves cars and has owned several BMW M3s in his lifetime as well as other performance cars. Likes to spend money on his toys. :D