My interaction with dual is stressful - is this normal?

Okay, as I mentioned in another post, I met my first dual that I know of a few months ago. Although I really like her, I was thinking back on our interactions and remembering that some of our interactions were quite stressful after the fact. Meaning, after I spent time with her, I would worry that I did or said the wrong thing, and felt on edge about it, or down about myself afterward. Also I noticed that she would frustrate me on multiple occasions.

Is this common for dual interaction in the beginning, or something unrelated to socionics?

I don't see how anybody here can tell you if it's normal or not... But, I can tell you that it's happened to me.

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Originally Posted by Lobo

I don't see how anybody here can tell you if it's normal or not... But, I can tell you that it's happened to me.

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Interesting... Did it stay that way, or get less stressful over time? Oh and I guess instead of asking if its "normal" I should ask if its "common".

That's related to introversion, and even more to self esteem, to confidence, and particularly to the general uncertainty of hopes matching with realities in interpersonal affairs.

It can happen.

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Originally Posted by slownumbers

Interesting... Did it stay that way, or get less stressful over time? Oh and I guess instead of asking if its "normal" I should ask if its "common".

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Over time they would cause me less stress. However, I've been noticing how I gradually have lost interest in LSEs as that has happened... It's like the attraction has lessened considerable with STs. I do have a couple of good LSE friends, but idk if I'd be interested later in starting anew with another. To me it requires work that I'm not willing to put out anymore.

What Korpsey said is also true with one particular interaction with an LSE.

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Originally Posted by slownumbers

Okay, as I mentioned in another post, I met my first dual that I know of a few months ago. Although I really like her, I was thinking back on our interactions and remembering that some of our interactions were quite stressful after the fact. Meaning, after I spent time with her, I would worry that I did or said the wrong thing, and felt on edge about it, or down about myself afterward. Also I noticed that she would frustrate me on multiple occasions.

Is this common for dual interaction in the beginning, or something unrelated to socionics?

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Usually no. You should be as verbally expressive as you can. If she's your dual, she'll agree with you or understand you and no matter how hard you try you won't be able to force conflict in. If you do create conflict (like yelling matches) than she's not your dual.

^Is that even true for Beta dual pairs?

Duality gets more comfortable over time. It's quite possible to experience a lot of friction as you learn your dual's language.

There were a few times I've seen duals (usually at the beginning stage) try to compete and one up each other, but usually, if they don't leave and stick around within a few months they really love each other because of this whole thing that if you don't have a dual while growing up, you yourself try to assume your dual's role in your own mind (like a psychological coping mechanism). Because of this, you have a hard time relinquishing control and recognizing that your dual is naturally good at the thing that stresses you out. Once the roles/tasks are divided within the dual pairing, the relationship is very wonderful.

I would like to hear about this as well. If anyone has some Dual stories to share, please do. :) Especially about the early stages.

And eh, me and my Dual argue a lot. And then we move on. There's lot of friction, charge. Always something going on, very dynamic, not static at all. I didn't have Duals around growing up, and we definately find it hard to communicate sometimes. It's not boring, to say the least.

Makes no rational sense, why we love each other so much, and why just being in his space energizes, soothes and balances me so much.

I wonder if there's this place that we'll 'reach' or is our relationship going to be like this for as long as it lasts. :D Then again, after each time and each frustration, I feel closer to him, and we do seem to develop our understanding of each other in the process. I feel like I'm growing, as an individual, a lot in this relationship.

And slownumbers, you shouldn't worry about what is normal. I do best with mine when I just follow my Ni, I've never been as accurate about which course of action to take with a person as I am with him (or maybe I have, but he responds to it in a way that shows me immediately I was correct, and that strengthens my trust on mi Ni). When I start to doubt myself, that's were it all seems to be going to ARSE. The more carefree I am the better my Dual always responds: funny but the more you are yourself the better. So stop doubting yourself I know been there / still there but TRUST ME. The more naturally YOU you are, the better. So just follow your guts and do and say what you feel like doing/saying. Your dual won't judge you. :)

Maybe the whole Duality relationship is just that. Moving from that getting to know your Dual phase (that can be plenty stressfull and depending on your own maturity, experience with duals, and lotsa other stuff too mebbe) and realizing wow this person really fucking likes you just-as-you-are, meaning you can literally drop all your usual boundaries and stuff to trash you've learnt so well to do during the course of your socialization. We're not naturally programmed to be used to that level of acceptance and expression of our truest selves because we have to keep so much away starting from our most everyday encounters.

But that's just the theory, anyway.

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Originally Posted by Maritsa33

There were a few times I've seen duals (usually at the beginning stage) try to compete and one up each other, but usually, if they don't leave and stick around within a few months they really love each other because of this whole thing that if you don't have a dual while growing up, you yourself try to assume your dual's role in your own mind (like a psychological coping mechanism). Because of this, you have a hard time relinquishing control and recognizing that your dual is naturally good at the thing that stresses you out. Once the roles/tasks are divided within the dual pairing, the relationship is very wonderful.

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Awesome. I agree. Your understanding of socionics has really grown deeper since you got here, Maritsa. :content:

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Originally Posted by shapeofthings

Maybe the whole Duality relationship is just that. Moving from that getting to know your Dual phase (that can be plenty stressfull and depending on your own maturity, experience with duals, and lotsa other stuff too mebbe) and realizing wow this person really fucking likes you just-as-you-are, meaning you can literally drop all your usual boundaries and stuff to trash you've learnt so well to do during the course of your socialization. We're not naturally programmed to be used to that level of acceptance and expression of our truest selves because we have to keep so much away starting from our most everyday encounters.

But that's just the theory, anyway.

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I think you're on to something there. For undualized people, it's extremely strange to find someone with whom you don't have to pretend, because most of us have forgotten how to not pretend.

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Originally Posted by Krig the Viking

Awesome. I agree. Your understanding of socionics has really grown deeper since you got here, Maritsa. :content:

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With the number of posts she's got, she's statistically bound to bump into something true every once in a while.

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Originally Posted by Starfall

Weird. It shouldn't be stressful, it should be easy & the interactions should flow naturally. I've never even had an argument with a Dual. If we have a disagreement we can usually talk it out in a way that we both can see each others perspectives. They may lecture on subjects such as strength, drive, & confidence, but that sort of thing helps me become stronger, if anything. Eh, maybe I'm just lucky.

I remember talking to a SLE poster through PM who said the SLE - IEI dynamic was a bit difficult in the beginning. Strangely, I've never had experience with that. I think you all over analyze these things.

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It does happen.

I think you're just lucky.

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Originally Posted by Ezra

It does happen.

I think you're just lucky.

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Starfall has already confessed to trying to "spread the love" of her perfect happy ideal dual relationship.

Plus... even without that performance pressure, who's going to openly admit to relationship difficulties on a public forum?

My husband and I have been together for like 13 years or something now and it's hard to remember just how things were early on. I remember the first few dates thinking he didn't like me and wondering why he'd keep wanting to see me. And we had one really big fight early on. Also, I met him when he was visiting the US, but he was living elsewhere, so he went home after we'd only known each other like two weeks. By the time he got back to see me again, things were smooth between us, but maybe if he'd been here that whole time things would have been harder between us during that adjustment period.

Are you sure you're not just being oversensitive because you have a crush on the person?

Usually when I am really attracted to someone it skews my perception, and it just goes downhill from there.

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Originally Posted by slownumbers

Okay, as I mentioned in another post, I met my first dual that I know of a few months ago. Although I really like her, I was thinking back on our interactions and remembering that some of our interactions were quite stressful after the fact. Meaning, after I spent time with her, I would worry that I did or said the wrong thing, and felt on edge about it, or down about myself afterward. Also I noticed that she would frustrate me on multiple occasions.

Is this common for dual interaction in the beginning, or something unrelated to socionics?

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ok, I'm not one to argue that Duality is some perfect kind of relationship, but this seems highly unlikely.

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Originally Posted by tiny_dancer

Are you sure you're not just being oversensitive because you have a crush on the person?

Usually when I am really attracted to someone it skews my perception, and it just goes downhill from there.

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I agree with this, and I think it might be even worse if you're the introvert. How many times have you been out together? Is this a romantic situation - I mean it sounds like you have romantic feelings but does she understand it that way as well, or are you like hanging out with friends? Are you in pursuit or actually dating? There are lots of non-socionic reasons why you could be having these kinds of feelings as they are very common for any people when they're pursuing someone they're interested in.

A dual being stressful? I've never been stressed by an EII. I know an SLI who'se been stressed by an IEE, but only because he misunderstands her and does what she didn't want him to.

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Originally Posted by tiny_dancer

Are you sure you're not just being oversensitive because you have a crush on the person?

Usually when I am really attracted to someone it skews my perception, and it just goes downhill from there.

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Yeah I guess this probably sums the situation up pretty accurately :)
It doesn't feel stressful at all when we're actually together, just afterward I analyze what I've said and worry I about it. I'm sure I wouldn't care or think about it afterward if I wasn't interested in her romantically. She knows that I was interested, and she just wanted to be friends.

You're two different individuals with different mannerisms, beliefs, tendencies and so forth... I mean, of course you may just as well have outright conflict with your dual. Nothing is for certain.

Hell, keep in mind your dual's 1st and 2nd functions are things you naturally suppress in you unconscious, so it's likely that you would encounter more frustration with your dual than your identical. And there's the intro-extro difference and it is probably difficult to settle such differences...

But the stuff I describe here will be problematic later down the line, what you probably experienced probably has little to do with socionics, but rather your own immediate interpretation of a physical situation that could have happened with anyone you know

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Originally Posted by Starfall

Eh? Not sure what you're talking about.

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It was one of the IEIs, and it was something largely to that effect.

I can assure you that Maritsa lives in lala land.

In socionics descriptions of duality I have found a passage that stated that duals tend to perceive each other as independent and capable people. Thus the risk of passing each other by or backing out of it (out of low self-esteem). And into beginning stages of relationships I would expect this same issue to interfere - the partner that is less emotionally sensitive making some blunder, the partner that is more emotionally sensitive taking that to mean that they aren't good enough and proceeding to distance.

Make sure though that you have identified your dual correctly and haven't run into your conflictor instead. To untrained eye they might look the same and sometimes conflictors take an interest in each other because they are so different, it can be intriguing initially. If you have mis-typed the other person and it is indeed a conflictor type your emotions may be trying to point out that they aren't a good match for you.

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Originally Posted by siuntal

In socionics descriptions of duality I have found a passage that stated that duals tend to perceive each other as independent and capable people. Thus the risk of passing each other by or backing out of it (out of low self-esteem). And into beginning stages of relationships I would expect this same issue to interfere - the partner that is less emotionally sensitive making some blunder, the partner that is more emotionally sensitive taking that to mean that they aren't good enough and proceeding to distance.

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So true, this ISTJ girl that I interacted with thought she did something wrong and she apologized to me online- and i was like wat...But yeah seriously it was just a misunderstanding :doh:, nonetheless i did feel a little bit bad about the it. But i must perservere! O btw, who is more likely to get attracted to which ISTJ --> ENFJ? or the opposite?

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Originally Posted by slownumbers

Okay, as I mentioned in another post, I met my first dual that I know of a few months ago. Although I really like her, I was thinking back on our interactions and remembering that some of our interactions were quite stressful after the fact. Meaning, after I spent time with her, I would worry that I did or said the wrong thing, and felt on edge about it, or down about myself afterward. Also I noticed that she would frustrate me on multiple occasions.

Is this common for dual interaction in the beginning, or something unrelated to socionics?

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Yes, it is very common in the beginning of dual relationships. /endthread

And like others noted... you really liked her. So of course, you'll be especially nervous to make a good impression.

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Originally Posted by Maritsa33

If she's your dual, she'll agree with you or understand you and no matter how hard you try you won't be able to force conflict in.

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Wow. Just wow for that statement. Every relationship takes work. Even duals. You always gotta work on your communication, work on everything. To say that, if you wanted to start trouble, you *wouldn't* be able to... is just crazy. If you're destructive, you can ruin any relationship you want.

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Originally Posted by Typhon

I can assure you that Maritsa lives in lala land.

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Yeah... thought that too with her description of 'perfect dual bliss', but I did like her other post on this thread.



... In regards to you, Starfall.

I do believe 'perfect' 'non-argumentative' relationships do exist... but from personal experience, it seems like they are more likely to exist with people who truly aren't chasing anything in life, who lack goals, or lack any real problems, such as coordinating jobs and money, or raising kids, etc.

It's easy to be perfectly happy with someone, if you never have to go through any real trouble together.

I don't wish ill upon you, or your relationship. But you seem to be in happy, youthful, naive, lala land a bit yourself. I hope you can effectively fight through any troubles you and your 'dual' boyfriend come across... then, tell me arguments never happen.

I think different dual relationships have different levels of DRAMA.

I know this one SLE-Se/IEI-Fe relationship where there was a lot of "You can't talk to this person", "You can't talk to that person" going around and it spilled over to everyone.

But they are now having a child together, but have distanced themselves from other people they used to know.

Meeting and having interaction with a dual isn't like a magical experience, but it will probably change you.

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Originally Posted by hkkmr

I know this one SLE-Se/IEI-Fe relationship where there was a lot of "You can't talk to this person", "You can't talk to that person" going around and it spilled over to everyone.

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:thumbsup: Sadly true... My IEI and I have both gotten very jealous of each other's being friends with certain people, or talking to certain people.

I'd like to say we're kind of getting past that.. we know we're very much committed to each other.

To be honest... I think the vast majority of this thread, is thinking of "dual relationships" in terms of "romantic relationships"... therefore, a lot of the "stress" can be just taking a romantic relationship seriously, trying hard to make something work, trying to 'be your best' for the person you like...

So I think the better question for the rest of this thread would be... how stressful are dual relationships with friends?

My own dual relationship's stressfulness (going on for almost 4 years now, thus the number of observations should have surpassed the edge of significance) follows a quickly decaying negative exponential distribution, with frequency on the x axis (and degree on the y axis). Thus 98% of the time it's stress-free, 1.5 % of the time it's slightly stressful, 0.5 % highly stressful. Generally, stressors are related to differing expectations towards life-matters (ex. differing goals, mostly due to inbuilt NTR differences: I don't want to live in a cold, damp place, whereas she wouldn't mind if she managed to land an interesting job position).

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trying hard to make something work, trying to 'be your best' for the person you like.

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That's a sick way to look at romantic relationships.

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Originally Posted by FDG

That's a sick way to look at romantic relationships.

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Why must ENTjs always correct me... :doh:

That's not 'how I view' romantic relationships. Was just saying some people might try to impress the person at first, like slownumbers did when first 'hanging out' with his dual... which I think we all do, to some degree, try to show our positive qualities at first.

Of course a relationship can be fun and enjoyable. And you can open up and be fully comfortable, not just 'being your best' or having to push to 'make it work'. Of course it should be enjoyable.

I still think realistically, relationships can be work to maintain, that everyone's natural tendencies is to drift away... that's all I was saying. But I'll probably get criticized for that again. =\

Doesn't mean keeping the relationship alive can't be fun also... :P

My dual relationship now is pretty without drama or argument, and we really have nothing to argue about as we agree about most stuff, I'm home with the kids so we have no arguments there, no money problems, agree about religion and politics, none of the common issues that couples have. The first few months or so living together though were at least somewhat an adjustment. We had that one big fight. Then no more fights for like 10 years, and then one other fight. It really is pretty darn drama free. Of course a dual relationship involving an SLI might look different than a dual relationship involving an EIE. LOL.

But anyway, this is a dual relationship 10-15 years later. A dual relationship at the beginning is going to take a bit of work because any time you stop putting yourself and your individual needs first, it's an adjustment. Living together is another adjustment initially, because you have to come to agreement on a trillion little things. We didn't have trouble coming to agreement except for that one fight, but we did have to find agreement on stuff like what time to eat, who does the cooking (when we were both working), who does the laundry, how do you sort laundry - as you take it off or all at once on laundry day, bathroom cleaning, how to best load the dishwasher, not leaving clothes on the floor. I mean there are millions of these issues, most of them pretty small but each one involved a discussion and agreement. Our one fight was over priorities - if work and home conflict, who wins? The Delta answer is "home", however I was not raised by Deltas and I thought "work" is what anyone would choose.

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Originally Posted by Ala

There were a few times I've seen duals (usually at the beginning stage) try to compete and one up each other, but usually, if they don't leave and stick around within a few months they really love each other because of this whole thing that if you don't have a dual while growing up, you yourself try to assume your dual's role in your own mind (like a psychological coping mechanism). Because of this, you have a hard time relinquishing control and recognizing that your dual is naturally good at the thing that stresses you out. Once the roles/tasks are divided within the dual pairing, the relationship is very wonderful.

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Aestrivex, I wonder if you and I have done this? I know I'm 5w6 sx/so and INTp-Te, but occasionally I confuse people, and once in a blue moon get weirded out at seeing myself, because I sometimes assume SEE-Fi 7w8 behavior. I just saw the need for SEE-ness when I was little. And it's weird because I'm sometimes enjoying my new dual but chameleon as them, too, at first.

I agree with a lot of what's already been said here in this thread.

I've come to realize that one of the big tests of whether someone is a dual (or fellow quadra-member for that matter) is how comfortable vs neurotic do they make you feel. If you feel comfy with a particular person, there are, on some subconscious level, shared socionic values. If you feel tense, nervous, judged, things always coming across the wrong way both ways, even though both are approaching each other with a neutral to good intent, suspect conflict or supervision. A distinction to make in assessing this, though, is do you feel nervous/judged because of some outside reasons like there are rumors the person is mean/intense/judgy/crazy or, say, self-criticism because of special feelings like a crush (as a few people have already mentioned)? What I mentioned does not apply then. This is something you will need to sort out via introspection.

The thing with conflictors is they can seem like your duals, until you realize they arent (they are your duals' quasi-identicals). With conflict, you can actually get along if you keep interaction to a minimum and dont take what your conflictor says too much too heart. Dont plan on getting close with your conflictor though because that is when it can become painful. To illustrate this a bit, one of my bosses (I have a bunch of bosses right now) is likely an LSI. Right off the bat when i started having exposure to this boss, I just felt this inexplicable need to cower and avoid interaction. I felt highly intimidated. I felt like everything i did was met with haughty disapproval and that my contributions were worthless. As a result i kept interaction to as minimum as I could. I could have sworn this guy hated my work. Well, turns out he actually gave me a glowing eval. I suspect the positive view was in part influenced by this LSI's right hand person, who I suspect is an LSE. LSE thinks very highly of me and values me a lot. Now that I know the LSI thinks well of me, it feels a little better working with him, but he still will often say things that, to me, seem totally hurtful, but just being aware that he is my conflictor I think to myself that he likely didn't mean it the way I took it. He also wants me to work more closely with him next year but I know that will be bad news (seeing how he slave-drives his current minion - not sure what type she is, ESE maybe). No freaking way. Even though I like him. That's how it is with conflictors. You dont mesh well and cringe at each other but keep saying to yourself, "he/she means well", "he/she didn't mean it that way", etc. This is why conflict leads to neurosis but isn't actually outright literal "CONFLICT" and isn't the most explosive of intertypes. You tend to sense the need to keep your distance from both sides.

Supervision can be, for some reason I cant explain, like a relationship trap; many bad marriages or failed friendships turn out to be some variety of supervision, which means they did like each other enough to fall in love/get married or become good friends in the first place.The badness/misunderstanding doesn't manifest until later. In conflict the sensation it's like right off the bat, and you know to watch out.

Duality, or activity or identity for that matter, when juxtaposed with conflictor relationships, the difference is really noticeable. You gravitate to these people, because you feel "safe". You know they like you, without needing an eval to tell you that. You dont get misunderstood. Things you say dont get misconstrued. You dont wonder why they made a certain comment. You value what they provide to you. They value you. You just feel free to say what you want to say. In conflict you sense your comment was unwelcome or stupid right away. In supervision you may feel free to be yourself at first but turns out deep down your supervisor was judging you negatively the whole time; then you lose trust in them, and that's a HORRIBLE feeling.

I recently had an excellent experience with an LSE boss for a month (activity). She, however, had a reputation of being "intense", "stern," and "particular" and "forcing" her minions to work long hours" with her, so I went into this stint a bit nervous, expecting the worst. However, i quickly realized that we were particular in the same way, so there was no friction there, and she was basically a teaching machine, so i actually didn't mind the long hours... I'd spend more time working with her if i could--miss her already! (I did get exhausted physically and didn't sleep a whole lot that month though). At first, i could tell she was a bit skeptical (probably because so many people working for her just didn't meet her expectations), but when both of us realized we were likeminded and had similar work standards in mind, it just became fun, and tbh relaxing, working with her. We would laugh, joke, confide in each other. When I was having a bad day or stressed about something, she would walk in a give me a hug or be like "are you ok?". And then the all-important question... "did you eat?". :D She's like 20-30 years older than me and knows 1000x more than me, but instead of feeling intimidated, it just totally felt like we were friends. Easy. Though, as is the case with activity relations, a bit exhausting.

I don't think you're stressed because it's your dual. You're stressed because it's someone you met and want to impress/want to like you, so you overthink and worry about it. It's human to do so. Whether or not this person is your dual is irrelevant to that.

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Originally Posted by Ala

There were a few times I've seen duals (usually at the beginning stage) try to compete and one up each other

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My duals have tried to tell me how to cook things, since they're "clever" and have "mastered" the best way (......)

The other day an ILE told me that the color I wanted to paint my dresser was "gaudy" and that I should use a "stain rather than a paint." He told me that he knew better because he had studied color theory.

*cough*

If you think you can't fight, get pissed off or stressed with your dual, you need to get out of the socionics bubble!

Hmm, wonder why interactions go so smoothly between duals on this forum.

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Originally Posted by lemontrees

My duals have tried to tell me how to cook things, since they're "clever" and have "mastered" the best way (......)

The other day an ILE told me that the color I wanted to paint my dresser was "gaudy" and that I should use a "stain rather than a paint." He told me that he knew better because he had studied color theory.

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That kinda stuff drives me crazy. :S

I have a dual who doesn't STFU. I hate her and she is therefore a stupid bitch.

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Originally Posted by dinki

If you think you can't fight, get pissed off or stressed with your dual, you need to get out of the socionics bubble!

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/thread

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Originally Posted by lemontrees

My duals have tried to tell me how to cook things, since they're "clever" and have "mastered" the best way (......)

The other day an ILE told me that the color I wanted to paint my dresser was "gaudy" and that I should use a "stain rather than a paint." He told me that he knew better because he had studied color theory.

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AGHHH LIEs do this to me alllllll the time. but so does my mom. but she sucks at a lot of things though she tries so hard.
LIE friend irl thinks he's perfect and has mastered everything. so wha? I like to try things out for myself... sure, the new dish I made was DISGUSTING. i just won't make it again.

^ on unrelated note.. I broke his faucet by accident. He was so pissed and couldn't wrap his head around that I accidentally broke it...somehow, (i don't even know how.. didn't do anything spectacular to it, just pushed it up for on, down for off.) he was convinced I did it on purpose... hurt my feelings. And I cried. like a useless puddle. I tried to fix it but I was kind of just in the way. I did pay for parts. Thank goodness he was able to fix it. and the damn thing turned out to be really really old and needed replacing anyways.

I....have a a tendency to not be perfect a lot of the time. and I might zone out for a few moments and break something. burn something. spill something. miss my exit. doesn't happen all the time. but enough.

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Originally Posted by blackburry

^ on unrelated note.. I broke his faucet by accident. He was so pissed and couldn't wrap his head around that I accidentally broke it...somehow, (i don't even know how.. didn't do anything spectacular to it, just pushed it up for on, down for off.) he was convinced I did it on purpose... hurt my feelings. And I cried. like a useless puddle. I tried to fix it but I was kind of just in the way. I did pay for parts. Thank goodness he was able to fix it. and the damn thing turned out to be really really old and needed replacing anyways.

I....have a a tendency to not be perfect a lot of the time. and I might zone out for a few moments and break something. burn something. spill something. miss my exit. doesn't happen all the time. but enough.

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Get back in the kitchen and quit breaking shit XD

IEI are insane (especially the women due to estrogen) on the inside, it gets worse as they get older.

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Originally Posted by Leader

IEI are insane (especially the women due to estrogen) on the inside, it gets worse as they get older.

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Some people get worse as they get older, regardless of their type; but, I've discovered that people come to know their best self just before their exist to life.

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Originally Posted by lemontrees

My duals have tried to tell me how to cook things, since they're "clever" and have "mastered" the best way (......)

The other day an ILE told me that the color I wanted to paint my dresser was "gaudy" and that I should use a "stain rather than a paint." He told me that he knew better because he had studied color theory.

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Ne, Ne, Ne.......

I try telling an LSE to do something [fill in a number of things], then I get a wall of "no" then followed by thinking then followed by trying it themselves and then by liking what I asked them to do in the first place; results could have been achieved much more efficiently and conserved time HAD THEY DONE IT THE WAY I SUGGESTED IN THE FIRST PLACE. *but* try saying that to an LSE!!!! Response is "you're controlling."

Me: *********DIES************

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Originally Posted by Maritsa

Some people get worse as they get older, regardless of their type; but, I've discovered that people come to know their best self just before their exist to life.

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Come to know there best self just before their exist to life?

http://25.media.tumblr.com/a7244211e...i0rbo1_500.gif

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Originally Posted by Leader

Come to know there best self just before their exist to life?

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Yeah, I've seen it happen many times; my SLE friend, a few months before he had a massive heart attack was speaking to me about his mistakes with women he's made in life; he was unshakable optimistic that he was going to build himself up to being a strong man again and find what he NOW knew was exactly the type of woman who was the right match for him; I asked him to describe the woman and him never having known any type in socionics, began to describe the characteristics of his duals, in such vivid detail that it left me at shock because I had never since, in any conversation with another human being known anyone who know exactly what would in another person substitute their selves; it was a beautiful enlightened moment but a sad one too because he left shortly after. I hope his spirit, energy, transforms into another SLE's heart. He was a wonderful friend.

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Originally Posted by Maritsa

I hope his spirit, energy, transforms into another SLE's heart. He was a wonderful friend.

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So that's what happens when we die?



ESIs of the world. beware..

Has anybody experienced that?
I just got out of a relationship with my "dual" and well it was far away from perfect to say the least.

Never. I'm in love with each and every one of my duals. It's like a wonderland.










(I'm kidding). (and yes, naturally).

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Originally Posted by William

Yes. As far as talking & joking around, we 'clicked' and everything, and were able to help each other through problems we had in life. But, overall, our lives were going in different directions, and I'm not sure that we completely stood for the same things. I think this was more shaped by our separate experiences growing up, than the interaction itself.

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Yes I am starting to think the past experiences and the current conditions of each person can affect the relationship between two people very drastically.

The LSI I was dating was extremely sensitive and would take everything very seriously and even tho I found the seriousness attractive on the first glance the same trait made us move our own ways. We were arguing all the time because he would take all my words very personally. He had a very damaging relationship with his ex and he is still feeling very bitter about it. They have a son together and his main focus is his son as his ex(Exxp) parties all the time and doesn't take proper care of him as he says. So he works lots and most of the free time he has he spends with his son as he is only 3. From what I have gathered he is looking for someone very stable yet at the same time flexible. I wouldn't call myself the most stable nor flexible person.
I found a lot of his personality traits attractive and I am sure the feeling was mutual. We had same goals and same understanding of how things should work. Yet somehow it didn't work out. In two weeks time he went from "I want you to meet my parents to I don't think being with you is right. You are stressing me out."

On the other note I got an LSI friend of a different subtype whose past life experiences were more similar to mine and we get on just great. Makes you wonder...

Of course many dualities will not 'click'. It's not important imo if someone is or not your dual, it's more important if it clicks. When this happens, it's rare and priceless.

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Originally Posted by Air

Of course many dualities will not 'click'. It's not important imo if someone is or not your dual, it's more important if it clicks. When this happens, it's rare and priceless.

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sounds like shooting a raccoon.

I've said this in another thread, but I'm not as interested in the IEI-Ni's. They're kinda low energy. Considering it takes a long time for my energy to ramp up, I need someone who is already up there for me to sorta rendeznevous with. It feels like a drag when the other person's enthusiasm is dependant upon my own. So I generally look for the IEI-Fe 2's, 4's, 7's and 8's. I'm not sure if IEI-Fe 8's exist, but there's a gal I met who claims to be one, so, I guess its possible.

Yes, it doesn't work sometimes for many reasons, Sari. It's not because of Socionics and information system. It's because of external events and factors.

Socionics is flawless, duality is flawless, okay? :3

Trust the professionals for your relationship needs.

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Originally Posted by DJ Arendee

I've said this in another thread, but I'm not as interested in the IEI-Ni's. They're kinda low energy. Considering it takes a long time for my energy to ramp up, I need someone who is already up there for me to sorta rendeznevous with. It feels like a drag when the other person's enthusiasm is dependant upon my own. So I generally look for the IEI-Fe 2's, 4's, 7's and 8's. I'm not sure if IEI-Fe 8's exist, but there's a gal I met who claims to be one, so, I guess its possible.

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That makes sense because you are being activated by Fe, enthusiasm.

LSE Si 7 with buffalo meat still works best for me :shock:

People often don't get along with their duals for many reasons. If someone spends a lot of time in an environment dominated by another quadra, one comes to expect the functions that quadra offers. And so even Duality is obscured because they aren't giving us what we have learned to expect. With any person, there are always individual foibles and values that differ greatly. Some people are just fucked up, for lack of a better word.

Aristocratic quadras are also an interesting exception: they often have lots of internal disagreements as well as fighting wars on external fronts. So there is going to be a lot of value-based splitting going on.

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Originally Posted by Maritsa

LSE Si 7 with buffalo meat still works best for me :shock:

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This is the reason I don't trust anything that bleeds for 5 days and doesn't die.

u just need to change their batteries then they are good to go

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Originally Posted by Eldanen

Aristocratic quadras are also an interesting exception: they often have lots of internal disagreements as well as fighting wars on external fronts. So there is going to be a lot of value-based splitting going on.

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I can attest to that. In real life those were like constant explosions.

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Originally Posted by Ananke

I dated only IEI-Nis so far, but I can see how IEI-Fes can be more instantly rewarding, though I fear I'd find them fluffy and even boring in the long run.

IEIs are E4s or E9s. The other types you mention are either delusions, not IEIs or not the Etypes you claim they are.

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I disagree with this. Any type in one system can theoretically be any type in another. Even though I'm not one myself, I've known ILI 4s for example. Nietzsche is a great example of an IEI 5.

At least you're not fluffy.

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Originally Posted by Ananke

I dated only IEI-Nis so far, but I can see how IEI-Fes can be more instantly rewarding, though I fear I'd find them fluffy and even boring in the long run.

IEIs are E4s or E9s. The other types you mention are either delusions, not IEIs or not the Etypes you claim they are.

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I will allow you to believe that.

The same LSI has a Beta NF bestfriend who could be his dual, however he won't go out with her because he doesn't find her attractive. Well here you go. There is more to attraction than duality on its own. :)

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Originally Posted by sarinana

The same LSI has a Beta NF bestfriend who could be his dual, however he won't go out with her because he doesn't find her attractive. Well here you go. There is more to attraction than duality on its own. :)

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I used to believe more in duality. Nowadays I find that there are lots of couples who get along very well and are not duals. Furthermore your dual is basically so different from yourself that you can be judging, non-comprehensive, or just find boring or funny many of his traits. Imo ST types tend to get along well and also with SF types in intimate relationships, but definitely Sensor may seem more attractive to another Sensor and therefore generate more desire than Intuitive. And perhaps that applies for Intuitives too.

In any healthy relationship there are multiple areas in which a partner wants to dominate and the other is willing to submit. If in those areas both want to dominate, it's going to cause friction. If both partners are willing to submit in an area and neither wants to dominate, they will begin to see each other as dull and uninteresting. Success in an intimate relationship thus revolves around coinciding in the areas each want to dominate and submit.

In theory, a Socionics dual dominates you in the areas you're willing to submit and submits to you in the areas you want to dominate in. However, not everyone acts naturally in concordance with their type. For example, there is people who has enough life experience to transcend their type limitations. This kind of people needs a dual that has also taken a similar evolution path. Over time, it is likely that both will return to their natural preferences, but keeping symmetry is a fundamental factor to keep the relationship working smooth. I think a common mistake for many people is that, as they age and settle on preferences and opinions, they strive to dominate their partners on everything.

It all comes down to the fact that Socionics explains types and interactions between types, which are simple and predictable combinations of operating modes but that people develops unique ways to combine them over time, which we call personality.

Recently, a friend and I had a falling out. She was my dual. I really tried to help her in everyway that I could but sometimes only a professional can really help. She had some psychological problems and a terrible childhood. Sometimes I wonder if what I did even helped her at all...

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Originally Posted by Filambee

Recently, a friend and I had a falling out. She was my dual. I really tried to help her in everyway that I could but sometimes only a professional can really help. She had some psychological problems and a terrible childhood. Sometimes I wonder if what I did even helped her at all...

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People can be really messed up sometimes. Occasionally it can be so severe that it takes years or even decades to heal. No joke. And sometimes, those wounds never heal without the proper help.

How about "human beings that don't work" that's better than saying "duality that doesn't work"

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Originally Posted by Eldanen

People often don't get along with their duals for many reasons. If someone spends a lot of time in an environment dominated by another quadra, one comes to expect the functions that quadra offers. And so even Duality is obscured because they aren't giving us what we have learned to expect. With any person, there are always individual foibles and values that differ greatly. Some people are just fucked up, for lack of a better word.

Aristocratic quadras are also an interesting exception: they often have lots of internal disagreements as well as fighting wars on external fronts. So there is going to be a lot of value-based splitting going on.

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This. Almost all duals I've met had totally different values from me. From omg, we can only chat about Socionics to wtf this person is a fucked-up asshole. I don't know if it's because you expect info or values from other Elements or Quadras. I suppose it's an extremely different life experience. If one spends most time with books and the other only plays videogames by default, you can only count on "help from above" to make anything work.

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Originally Posted by sarinana

Yes I am starting to think the past experiences and the current conditions of each person can affect the relationship between two people very drastically.

The LSI I was dating was extremely sensitive and would take everything very seriously and even tho I found the seriousness attractive on the first glance the same trait made us move our own ways. We were arguing all the time because he would take all my words very personally. He had a very damaging relationship with his ex and he is still feeling very bitter about it. They have a son together and his main focus is his son as his ex(Exxp) parties all the time and doesn't take proper care of him as he says. So he works lots and most of the free time he has he spends with his son as he is only 3. From what I have gathered he is looking for someone very stable yet at the same time flexible. I wouldn't call myself the most stable nor flexible person.
I found a lot of his personality traits attractive and I am sure the feeling was mutual. We had same goals and same understanding of how things should work. Yet somehow it didn't work out. In two weeks time he went from "I want you to meet my parents to I don't think being with you is right. You are stressing me out."

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from what I know EIE is not flexible. My sister is one. But stable they are. I'm also skeptical about duality when it's about more than friendship. I've only dated 2 duals, neither experience led to a relationship. We lived in totally different worlds. It's like nothing of what is vitally important to me was part of their priorities in life. We could only go out and party in clubs. And with one talk socionics as the main intellectual topic.

they have quite rigid views about how people should behave and how relationships between them should proceed. But hey, I'm not saying I'm a teddy bear myself. It's just that for me it's more like "if it helps you advance in your career, do this" or "if it makes money, go for it". While her expectations seem less rooted in reality imho. I guess she's more idealistic, if I'm to use a soft term. EIE is stable in the sense that they have a goal in mind and gather all their forces to reach it. And eyes on the long term. For me it's relaxing cause I know my sister won't do totally unpredictable shit and I can rely on her. I kind of know what she would do and what she would never, given her general beliefs. So that's why I've been asking about duality stories here. It's weird, but, as explained above, in dating duality sucked.

Honestly, if you came to me and said "Maritsa, I think Jeffrey Dahmer (emotionally manipulating serial killer) is my dual...oh I LOVE him!!!" I would say "yes, honey, that may be true BUT HE KILLS PEOPLE FOR A LIVING" Lesson: yes, he may be your dual, but he's a terrible horrible human being who promotes and sustains a harmful environment perpetually. Someone who attracts a following, gets emotionally butt hurt easily, leaves with that entourage is a DANGEROUS PERSON. I can't tell people enough times. Yes, he may be your dual, but you want to look at the person that he is not the type.

I think Jeffrey Dahmer is my dual and that Killing people for a living is both hot and lucerative! Look at all those TV shows!

aaaahhhh my Jeffrey...

Thank you Martisa for introducing us!

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Originally Posted by Reficulris

I think Jeffrey Dahmer is my dual and that Killing people for a living is both hot and lucerative! Look at all those TV shows!

aaaahhhh my Jeffrey...

Thank you Martisa for introducing us!

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lol :)

Well to be fair I tend to form more stable relations with other NFs. Even if things go wrong we somehow manage to not be bitter about it. Also they seem to understand me better.
Now with STs - doesn't matter beta or delta it is always a guessing game. I suppose duality in many instances, especially when you haven't been around your duals before, takes time. But quite often the relationship falls apart before you get to know the person well enough.

And for me being ENFj and being unstable. I meant mood wise I am not very stable(mainly because I worry so much), otherwise I plan things and stick to them. I also have a tendency to expect the worst so I always have a back up plan in mind.
With my ex the main problem was him wanting to either relax or work and me wanting to actually "live and have fun". From the very beginning he wanted to be sure where we stand with each other relationship wise, maybe that's Fi seeking?

When I date an IEI and the relationship is healthy, it feels like this, except instead of being suave enrique iglesias, I'm awkward, and tripping over shit and talking too loudly to cover up my extreme nervousness, and the girl is super smiley and just laughing at how hard I'm trying:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZrzOZaI7UE

When I date unhealthy IEI's, it feels like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ardfUyNN_Jk

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Originally Posted by Ananke

That's in general how duals are supposed to "help" eachother. Duals don't understand SHIT of what the other sees, and in some sense don't even respect that side of reality.

I'm not so sure duality is only bliss, and I'm not even sure it is the best relationship. Socionics is just an unproven theory after all, and only religiously inclined people can seriously talk as if it is "the truth". But what I AM sure of, it that duality is a "total" experience, in the sense that it provides you with "all" of what the world consist of, even the half of it that you don't know of. The question I still have is: "do I need or want to know of it?"

In what sense "not rooted in reality? .

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Well from where I stand she's too future oriented. My dad would say she sometimes dreams big . I guess her Ni works both ways : she can have a vision of what thing could be or become and fight for it; or she can worry too much, unfounded worries. Like what if that doesn't work? let's prepare an alternative. What if the train doesn't come on time? We should have a back-up plan, I don't wanna get stuck for hours here. What if, WHAT IF?. See.

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Originally Posted by Absurd

Hmm, wonder why interactions go so smoothly between duals on this forum.

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cause it's a forum and no one needs to take the trash out :P
(yeah, even SEIs get tired of the mundane, despite whatever the stereotypes say about dust-cleaning smiley fairies awaiting to pass the newspaper and slippers to their SO)

@Maritsa - the number of times that I asked my SO to do sth a certain way and he just needed to keep experimenting... :hide:and in the end he did it my way anyway... ;) But. I actually recently heard him say - "hmm I might actually do this your way right away, cause I guess you know what you're saying" (FINALLY! lol :) )

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Originally Posted by aisa

cause it's a forum and no one needs to take the trash out :P

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I wasn't serious and I am perfectly capable with the latter. Killing people as well.

Wow interesting skills you have :P somehow throwing trash away seems more useful on a day to day basis ;)
[Yeah and btw I wasn't completely serious either. I find it amusing the number of times you tell me you're joking, even though I already know you are. Happen to enjoy sarcasm :)]

Some duals can be stressful to be around simply because they are overbearing and abrasive people. Not type related. Be careful before you judge an entire relationship to be negative based on limited examples.

I was in a brief relationship-like situation with an ILE (my dual), and the energy that flowed between us worked, like we were on the same level on a lot of things. But there were some things that just didn't click at all. Such as his lack of communication :/ Also, as much as I loved his creative view on things, there is a time and place, and sometimes you just need to do things the way you know works OTL But of course he wouldnt listen to that, being as stubborn as he is once he gets an idea in his head OTL

Mind you, it wasn't exactly the healthiest set-up, so perhaps if we had both been healthier/more mature and in a different life space, I could see us toooootally clicking. Sucks that things just turn out that way sometimes though -shrug-

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Originally Posted by Ankh

In what way are EIEs not flexible and in what way are they stable? (Just asking for clarification, as I'm interested, since I have a very close family member that is EIE, and I find her hard to understand deeply at times).

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Hamlet is Extrovert, Intuit, ethical, dynamic, negativist, asking, strategical, constructivist, rational, process oriented, obstinate, careless, decisive, merry, aristocrat.

Combine all that and you will see why.

there are couple of suggestions to all about duality:

1. not every dual will be your true dual
2. in some cases only psychiatrist will help someone even if it's your dual
3. make sure you identify the correct type of a person. I had many examples when people tried to behave as someone else and lived in the conflict with each other, which made typing a bit hard. My advice - do not jump into the conclusion about duality between you and that "sweet" and "cute" person in front of you.
4.make sure you identify your own type correctly according to the model and Reinin dichotomies.
5. For those who can speak Russian, I highly recommend to read this - http://www.strannik.de/lovesyntax/map.htm if you have a double dual, it is a true blessing! this will explain a lot better why even duals might not get along with each other. better than sub-types etc. Won't write a lot about it here, ask me if you want to know - being a declaring and dynamic type, I might go far far away with it. :lol:

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Originally Posted by slownumbers

Okay, as I mentioned in another post, I met my first dual that I know of a few months ago. Although I really like her, I was thinking back on our interactions and remembering that some of our interactions were quite stressful after the fact. Meaning, after I spent time with her, I would worry that I did or said the wrong thing, and felt on edge about it, or down about myself afterward. Also I noticed that she would frustrate me on multiple occasions.

Is this common for dual interaction in the beginning, or something unrelated to socionics?

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In order to really enjoy duality, every party should be psychologically relaxedand comfortable. and in order to do that - you must allow some time for that to happen. My practice shows that it takes about 4-6 months to really enjoy the comfort of your dual. Why? because 1. you are used to interact with non-duals and even communicating with your dual you subconsiously think of "evil meanings" behind words or actions. so, it takes some time to psychologically relax. 2. normally people do not meet their duals (because duals hang around different groups or have some different interests) every day. It is very rare to meet a dual. I would say that at first you don't even know why someone like you would be awarded with such a dual. So, it takes time to see the practical application of model A.

Only after you've been in 1 successful and real dual relationships (for this - you both MUST be correctly indentified) only then you are up for relaxing around other duals you're going to meet.

Duality is addicting.

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Originally Posted by sweetgingerpeach

I was in a brief relationship-like situation with an ILE (my dual), and the energy that flowed between us worked, like we were on the same level on a lot of things. But there were some things that just didn't click at all. Such as his lack of communication :/ Also, as much as I loved his creative view on things, there is a time and place, and sometimes you just need to do things the way you know works OTL But of course he wouldnt listen to that, being as stubborn as he is once he gets an idea in his head OTL

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Yeah, I can relate to the bolded parts. It took a lot of work to get my ILE to open up and communicate. Especially his feelings. And it's a work in progress. The reward is he says I'm the person who knows him best and ctually cares enough to drag his opinions out and listen to them.
Idk if all ILEs are like that, but if so - then this maybe could be one of those things that are a role of SEI to perform in the ILE-SEI duality...

And stubborn he is. But he's learning to see that it might be time-efficient to just listen to my advice sometimes instead of sticking with testing every other option only to come to the conclusion that I already proposed in the first place. :P

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Mind you, it wasn't exactly the healthiest set-up, so perhaps if we had both been healthier/more mature and in a different life space, I could see us toooootally clicking. Sucks that things just turn out that way sometimes though -shrug-

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We met when we were very young and he tried to pursue me right away but I wasn't interested. When a few years later we became a couple he actually said that we probably wouldn't have lasted if we became a couple earlier on as he was very immature (his words). From my perspective - I also value him much more than I would've if I didn't have certain experiences prior to our relationship. So I guess there has to be the right time and place... and a right person (but not necessarily a stranger ime) :)

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Originally Posted by Fetornado

5. For those who can speak Russian, I highly recommend to read this - http://www.strannik.de/lovesyntax/map.htm if you have a double dual, it is a true blessing! this will explain a lot better why even duals might not get along with each other. better than sub-types etc. Won't write a lot about it here, ask me if you want to know - being a declaring and dynamic type, I might go far far away with it. :lol:

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I don't speak Russian and am very interested in reading about the concept of "double duality" you've mentioned. Could you please elaborate on it?

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Originally Posted by aisa

I don't speak Russian and am very interested in reading about the concept of "double duality" you've mentioned. Could you please elaborate on it?

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it is also a simple and brilliant system, which makes sense. It has 4 functions - 1,2,3,4. first two are strong and last two are week. 1 and 4 are result oriented and 2 and 3 are process oriented. 3 is also a stress point, sort of like PoLR. 4th is weak and doesn't care much.

There are 4 aspects - will power, physical state, logical (thinking) and emotional state.

definition of "will power" - it is more like "I am" and "what I want". This aspect is responsible for making decisions, for influencing decisions even when it comes to someone's emotions. If you have willpower as 1 function - it is monologue, excess, result and individualism. You will see these people who seem to be confident, "stubborn" (because they don't repeat themselves twice or they don't change decisions - I want it that way and this is how it's going to be". on the second place - it's like a norm, dialogue and process. These people will manipulate with everything else they have to make you make the right decision they want - they will never tell you directly what they want or what you should be doing, but rather indirectly talk to you about what would be nice to do if only you'd support. and it is never ending process. If it is on the 3 place - It is a complex of the person, total vulnerability of the core person. They will never agree with any decisions, they will always look for "enemies" around them and they will fight and struggle psychologically, trying to blame everything on someone else. On the 4th place - it's like wax, dependence and omnivorous. these people prefer direct instructions on what needs to be done, what is the best decision. They'd prefer someone else make decisions for them.

Apply the same kind of thing for all other aspects.... I will give you my example. I am 1E 2Ph 3L 4WP. So I have a lot of emotions, it is my first dominant and result oriented thing. When I start - better not to interfere :hide: better wait until it's all gone from me. and I do want others to respond to my emotions, and I do love those people when they WANT it. My second one is physical state. It is never ending process! :hyper: I am always moving. 2 physical state will give you a lot of everything - oh, we have guests? all right! let's cook some stuff! oh, only 2 people are coming? well, they will take some food home or we could feed some neighbors too! running, walking, jumping, making love - it is all about the process. I drink a glass of wine because i love this particular process, I try to drink this glass of wine slow and enjoy every moment of it. my 3 one is thinking - being a positive, it is hard to always be a critic of everything! yes, I will look for flaws. I hate dogmas and will make any dogma disappear (anybody with the 1 logic will piss me off EVEN if it's a dual ;)). No one will ever know, but I do love to solve puzzle when nobody sees me, just in case if someone starts criticizing me on my "smartness". it is also a process. You could see me always willing to learn something and get 3 higher degrees! :confused2: maybe I'll get another one :biggrin: and my 4th one is willpower - please make all decisions for me! please tell me what to do? yes, I do what others tell me to do. I prefer them telling me directly.

My interactions with this one ENTp I know have been pretty smooth..

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Originally Posted by Suedehead

My interactions with this one ENTp I know have been pretty smooth..

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Smooth interaction was the first thing I noticed around ILEs. Smoother than with other types in the sense that even when I say with good intentions sth that could be understood in two ways and some people might get offended or sth - ILEs usually get it according to my initial meaning.

I don't have an IEIs perspective on interacting with ILE as we've lost contact, but ILE says that interaction with IEI was more difficult than with me - he can't remember details, but from what I remember it wasn't any major misunderstandings, more like IEI judging ILE's "goofiness" as embarrassing and ILE probably getting a bit hurt (not in the way that would be clearly visible to onlookers) with some of the IEIs comments.


...and your interactions with SLEs?
I used to be friends with a SLE girl in childhood/early teens and it was good and fun, but interaction with ILEs is sth that just clicks more in the sense that the communication is easier and feels more fun.

I'd agree with that last assessment Aisa.

Interacting with ILE is usually pretty good, but the way we talk doesnt really prompt the other person to give their 2 cents. Wheras with SLE thats almost always the case. Oddly enough though, ILE and me tend to gravitate towards similar interests and topics of conversation. So we'll instigate conversations with each other that we both want to have, it's just better not smooth afterward.

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Originally Posted by Pookie

ILE and me tend to gravitate towards similar interests and topics of conversation. So we'll instigate conversations with each other that we both want to have.

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That's apparently the intuitive 'level' or whatever it is called, so both (intuitive Socionics wise) parties are going to have it easier.