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ESTj???
I can see her pussy! ESTp.
I think that she is ISFJ.
ESTp
I think she is ESTp and that Kurt Cobain was INFp.
good point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sycophant
ESTPs show their pussy like that??? NOt where I live :8*Quote:
Originally Posted by Joy
Keep in mind, we're talking Courtney Love, here. COURTNEY LOVE, as in:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dioklecian
http://www.puc.cl/ucsaludable/htm/ar...img/drogas.jpg
eh, I was just taking a cheap shot
Ha, I never let things like this happen when I was on heroin. I was a modest junkie.
http://home-l1.tiscali.nl/~obis/courtney_love110.jpg
http://www.paulscheer.com/uploaded_i...ove-793284.jpg
http://www.nrk.no/img/356521.jpeg
Hmm, I guess it's fair to assume that she does not care?
agreedQuote:
Originally Posted by implied
Courtney Love
ESTp --- :Se::Ti: --- Commander
using 2 subtypes: Sensory Commander (Se-ESTp)
using 4 subtypes: Harmonizing Commander (H-ESTp)
using 8 subtypes: Expert Commander (Ni-ESTp)
using 16 subtypes: Lyrical (or Visionary) Commander (ESTp-INFp)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoS4G0k_wDw
"Every time that I sell myself to you/I feel a little bit cheaper than I need to..."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bXvYowtmIY
"...Just you wait 'til everyone is hooked..."
http://d29ci68ykuu27r.cloudfront.net...00/5039349.jpg
http://resources1.news.com.au/images...in-fortune.jpg
- from Vanity Fair (NOVEMBER 2011); p. 201 (Love in a Cold Climate): Her coffee table was filled with vases of flowers, candles, cigarettes, ashtrays, a covered tray of cupcakes, and interesting books: The Frenzy of Renown: Fame and Its History, by Leo Braudy; Ecology of Fear: Los Angeles and the Imagination of Disaster, by Mike Davis. As I got to know Courtney, I found that a conversation with her could swing dizzyingly from Robert Graves to Sigmund Freud to the drug habits of Hollywood actors and actresses to Plato’s Phaedrus. “There is a hidden part of her that is the most highbrow of highbrow,” says her friend Gwyneth Paltrow. “She’s so erudite and brainy and it’s beneath this amazing punk exterior.”
- pp. 202, 204: What had actually struck me in Azerrad’s book—and also in Charles Cross’s 2001 Cobain biography, Heavier than Heaven, the basis for a biopic now in development at Universal—was the thing that somehow gets left out of the Kurt and Courtney myth: how very much in love they were. “I’m so blinded by love,” Cobain said in 1992. “I’m just so overwhelmed by the fact that I’m in love on this scale.” “I’d never met anyone so outspoken and charismatic,” he told Azerrad. “It seems like she is a magnet for exciting things to happen.” He called her “the coolest girl in the whole world.”
“Are you mad at him for killing himself?” I asked her.
“Mad?" Courtney shouted. “Ya think?! If he came back right now I’d have to kill him, for what he did to us. I’d fucking kill him. I’d fuck him, and then I’d kill him.”
It was just the kind of thing—her honesty and dark humor—that Cobain loved her for, and that continually gets her into trouble.
- p. 227 (Where Did Our Love Go?): ‘I think the theme of loss is truly one of the driving things in her life,” said a friend of Courtney’s. “When you look at the conspiracy, it’s all part of this loss that has been part of her life since childhood. She’s always trying to find out where it went—whether it’s money or love.”
Courtney’s troubled history has been examined at length—most of all by Courtney. It’s unusual to have a conversation with Courtney where she doesn’t mention one of the outrages of her dysfunctional hippie upbringing: That her father, Hank Harrison, allegedly dosed her with LSD when she was four (Harrison denies this). That her mother, Linda Carroll, now a therapist, twice left her in the care of others, a family friend when Courtney was 9 and a former stepfather when she was 12. “My mother wants to kill me,” Courtney says.
Courtney—born Courtney Michelle Harrison in San Francisco in 1964—wound up in the Oregon juvenile-detention system at 13. At 16, she became legally emancipated from her mother—actually a woman with a “sizeable inheritance” of her own, according to her memoir, Her Mother’s Daughter—going on to become a stripper and then, improbably, a rock star.
- p. 229: “Ever since I was a little girl,” she said, “I wanted to be famous, because I thought, in the light, they’ll be fair to me. I prayed to God I could grow up and be famous because then they’ll be fair to me. Fair to me? Ha.
“And then it turned out my calling was to be this provocateur. I wrote this song once called ‘Asking for It.’ ‘Was she asking for it? Was she asking nice? Did she ask you for it? Did she ask you twice?’ I was playing with this trope of the vengeful female. I thought, like Madonna, I could change my persona with my look. But what I didn’t understand—I didn’t get the brief on this—is they’ll never let you live it down.”
- from THE FIRST SESSION CD booklet (1990 Flipside Interview):
Caroline: She walked up to me and said, “Do you play drums?”
Courtney: Because she was watching Dee from L7. Perceptive of me, wasn’t it?
Caroline: Yes, Courtney.
Courtney: I moved here from another place, from another band that we don’t want to talk about [Faith No More], determined to start my own band. Not my band, but a band, a good band. Not a bad band as opposed to some bands I’ve been in. Then I found the most talented, hot people that could make a good band.
Al: Are you a native Californian?
Caroline: Me and Eric are from San Pedro. Jill is from Covina.
Al: Where are you from Courtney?
Courtney: Portland, and San Francisco pretty much.
Al: As far as this being the second Hole. . . .
Caroline: That first band was a completely different band, it really was. It was a false hole. There were two other members that . . . the song writing completely changed from that point on.
Eric: We’re a real group where everybody affects the band, it’s not just one person.
Caroline: It’s not like one person’s mood swing affects the band. . . .
Courtney: THAT’S RIGHT! Ha ha. . . .
Al: What else makes this the real Hole?
Courtney: Well, we all like Neil Young . . . and we all part our hair in the middle unless we have bangs.
Al: Who makes up your flyers?
Courtney: I’ve been making them, why?
Al: I was wondering where you get a lot of the little quotes that you put on them?
Courtney: Some of them are my little poems, some are like the last one was a Henry Miller thing, different stuff.
Al: Is that inspiration for lyrics as well?
Courtney: One thing about this band is that we are heavily into lyrics. That is the most important thing to me. I used to be in a band that is now a gigantic heavy metal band, who shall go nameless. I used to write lyrics for that band when I was 16 and they wouldn’t even look at them. That was bogus. Lyrics are important. I think you should have something to say.
Al: Is there a general theme that runs through them?
Courtney: I don’t usually write . . . I’ve been writing most of the lyrics—I wouldn’t feel very comfortable singing somebody else’s lyrics unless they are by Fleetwood Mac, but basically . . . I don’t write about guys or anything. . . .
Caroline: They seem to be personal, or sometimes traumatic experiences.
Courtney: Deep emotional lies. You know when you have a lot of angst, you tend to think that your angst is a very special angst and you give up of your angst.
Gus: Do you all write the music?
Courtney: Yes, the last song we wrote we all wrote, the song before that two of us wrote.
Eric: In the beginning Courtney and I would write most of the music and the words, and since Jill has been in the band we’ve been jamming more and. . . .
Courtney: The ball is rolling, the community, the unity is there.
Al: What are some new songs that you’ve been writing?
Courtney: We just wrote a song called “Dick Nail.” It’s about different kinds of, it’s an anti-misogynism anthem. It has a verse about rape, it has a verse about incest, it has a verse about—okay, it’s a male-bashing song! No, it’s not. . . .
Caroline: It sounds like the rationale for a gang bang sometimes, the excuses. . . .
Courtney: The words to the song are very simple, they’re like, you know in rape cases how people say “she liked it” or “she was asking for it” or “look at how she was dressed.” A lot of times in rape cases people don’t even go to jail because the woman was wearing a fucking miniskirt!
Caroline: They’re exactly like the witch trials, you have to prove that you are completely, immaculately, virginly pure or else you are asking for it.
Al: What’s another song. . . .
Courtney: I wrote a song about my best friend. We write songs about each other.
Al: But we can’t know who it’s about, right?
Courtney: No! Because it’s like in the context of our band—we have a press kit, 5 little pieces of press and each one of them mentions Sonic Youth, or another band, or . . . I think it’s a bad thing to continue that, name dropping, being associated with other bands. As if there’s not room for enough—I want every fucking girl in the world to pick up a guitar and start screaming. I’m totally fucking into it. I’m not into the competition, or calling it menstrual grunge, or saying there’s this influx of bands with pissed-off girls in them because now there’s five of them. Okay, all of a sudden that’s an influx, there’s too many when there’s 8000 bands with guys screaming. But that’s fine.
Jill: It’s still like if it’s a girl then they’ve got to say it, like why do you have to say it’s a girl or a guy? They have to sell that “girl” thing. . . .
Courtney: Fuck that girl thing!
Eric: I wasn’t searching out to play with just girls.
Courtney: I don’t go out to look for just girls, you try going to English Acid and going up to a guy in leather pants and saying, “Will you drum in a band with me?” They fucking laugh at you. So transcend the whole experience of the feminine aspect. I read this in a Limey paper, I thought it was a really good quote about how men have to dress up like women to like sing really emotional issues in heavy metal. Like what is Poison? They’re drag queens, they dress up like women therefore they get to confront emotional issues. The whole feminization of men in heavy metal speaks for itself. Well, scratch that because we want to transcend this whole “chick” thing. Fuck this chick thing. The whole thing with music is that it is cathartic, and if it wasn’t cathartic then I wouldn’t want to play it. When I was a teenager and I was in different bands it wasn’t as cathartic for me, but now shit travels through me and out of me, for me, and I think for all of us—shit travels out of us and into you. And that makes us feel better about our shit because we can share it.
Al: So for someone who has never seen you, what kind of shit are you sharing?
Courtney: Okay, like “Retard Girl,” that’s our single. It’s about getting picked on in school, anyone who’s ever been picked on in a big way, or a small way. I just got this vibe one day about how when I was in school I was really shy and sort of picked on, and I swore that I would never pick on people who were picked on. I pick on people that nobody else picks on. People think that song is making fun of some retarded girl but it’s about me! About that feeling of alienation. I was so quiet. I was the quietest person and I got picked on but I CHANGED MY WAYS!
Eric: We’re all little misfits. . . .
Al: The single is out with Sympathy, right?
Courtney: Yes. Sympathy for the Record Industry is the coolest record label in America! What I really like about Sympathy is the guy that runs it, John, is totally sincere and totally honest in his dealings, and is unambitious. He says when he has to get someone to answer the phones then he’s quitting. That’s a weird level to deal with because when you live in Hollywood you have to deal with schmucky insincere people—it’s really refreshing. He never questions the gender for a second or even talks about it.
Al: Will we see more vinyl in the near future?
Courtney: We’re doing another single. We’re doing a cover of “Both Sides Now” [by Joni Mitchell] and “Dick Nail” and a song called “Sweet Crystal Powered By God” which was inspired by Don Bolles. There was this biker cover band in Calavaras County called Sweet Crystal and their singer got saved by Jesus, so they changed their name to Sweet Crystal Powered by God. But that’s not what the song is about, it’s about a girl who goes on a murder rampage.
Al: Let’s talk about your name and how it sums up what you’re all about?
Courtney: Okay, the name, it came from my mom. She’s like a therapist and I said “I had a really fucked childhood” and she said “Well, Courtney, you can’t walk around with a big hole inside yourself about it.” Then I realized that a lot of different kinds of anger and stuff came from my hole, this hole that needs to be fed—that angst inside a person is like their hole. . . . Like when you feel that human emptiness and you have to feed it. . . . We’re trying not to be obscene, we’re trying not to be gross. We’re trying not to be anything; we’re just a vapor of fucking hell that passes through your hole and out the other side, and if it leaves a fucking impression then it’s fucking great.
Al: When you were a kid was there any traumatic situation that may have led you to be in a rock band?
Courtney: Start with day one and keep going. The exact moment of my birth and onward. I had a guitar from the beginning and I always wanted to be in a band. The whole concept of life just hit me one day.
Jill: I met this hippie that had a bass and I didn’t know much about hippies. I was into punk rock at the time. Now I’m a hippie. I sold my 10 speed and got this bass and fell in love, and it’s the only thing that I know and want to do, and I’ll probably be in a jazz band doing comedy when I’m sixty.
Eric: It was a combination of two experiences. One was waking up one morning in some pantyhose and having my mom look at me with this disgusting look—being disgusted that I was even alive, disgusted that I would do such a thing to myself during the night on top of my bunk bed without my little brother even knowing it. It was a combination of that and walking on the beach one day down in San Pedro, walking along the tide pools and I found a dead body. I thought they were filming a movie, it was this body which was pure white, it had been thrashed around a few days in the water, hitting the rocks. I walked up close to it and “oh my God!”
Al: and that made you pick up the guitar?
Eric: Yeah, that and the pantyhose thing, then I saw Kiss and saw Aerosmith and it was all over. I don’t know. I had to be a rock star.
Caroline: I didn’t start talking until I was 4 or 5 years old because my sister did all the talking. I didn’t want people to see me talk because I thought my mouth looked real funny. Then I thought I was a ghost that was invisible, but I was also 5’10” in sixth grade, so that really didn’t cut it. But to this day I’ve always had the power to be invisible. I can completely avoid cops. I can be drinking, doing 75 miles an hour in the fast lane, and cops will pull beside me, look at me, and keep going. It’s really weird. So I always thought I was a ghost. I also always thought I was ignored so badly that I wanted attention. I wanted to affect people. Then I saw Karen Carpenter play drums on TV and I was so impressed that that was it for me. Then on a cruise to Catalina there was this band called the Icebreakers on the cruise ship, and they were whacking coconuts and had Hawaiian shirts and were acting really silly and they had a girl drummer. So after that I knew I had to play drums and it went from there.
Al: Were you in a band before this one?
Caroline: Yeah, I was in the Omelettes. I replaced Janet from the Love Dolls.
Courtney: Pat Smear turned me onto the Carpenters. Karen has a really pure and beautiful voice and it soothed all of America for almost a decade. But Stevie and Lindsey really represent the true California sound that we are looking for.
Al: You were in some other bands too, right, Jill?
Jill: Yeah, I played with the Superheroines and I played with Sylvia Juncosa.
Courtney: Me and Jennifer from L7 and Kat from Babes in Toyland had a band together that was chee-zee! Cheezee! It was fucking chamber music! It was hysterical. If the tapes ever come out I’ll kill myself. I was in . . . a couple of other bands. . . . The general consensus of this band is that Mary lied about Jesus.
Al: In what respect?
Courtney: Weeee are prettttty sure . . . that it wasn’t immaculate conception.
- from Her Mother’s Daughter: A Memoir of the Mother I Never Knew and of My Daughter, Courtney Love by Linda Carroll; pp. 151-152 (Chapter 17): Hank had Courtney one night a week and every other weekend. One day she came home with psychedelic magic marker drawings covering her arms and legs. And I was horror-struck by her nightmares after the visits with him. She woke up screaming, “No, Daddy, no!” It was virtually impossible to soothe her afterward. The more I tried, the more she would stiffen, arching her back and resisting as though my touch were painful.
I called my lawyer to see if I could stop Hank from seeing her. “I have to be honest,” he said. “I’d be concerned about my daughter visiting him, too. He doesn’t seem to know a lot about appropriate behavior.” But in 1966, in the most liberal city in the country, there was little a court could do about my concerns, he told me. “I don’t even think we can get him to pay his child support—that’s how loose the system has gotten.”
Harmonizing?
:love:
ILE. Enneatype: 8w7.
SLE-Ti 7w8 sx/sp
Reminds me a bit of Madonna in ways, though not as composed; 7 vs 3 shows a lot. Also reminds me a bit of user ananke.
Yeah, SLE is pretty clear after watching some interviews. No way she is ILE.
I was just thinking the sameQuote:
Originally Posted by Gilly
Quote:
Originally Posted by FDG
I agree with this. If she's Ti-ESTp, then maybe Normalizing subtype (ESTp-IXFj).Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilly
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RD9xK9smth4&ob=av2e
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LE7-K71uYak
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxYeXQkXu9s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rk7B1Rf_TU
"I burn better in the dark/Don't let the light in/It's pure poison where you are/Is that me crying?/Tell me a happy ending story . . . . For every end in tragedy/I'll twist your heart out/For every evil, dumb, lazy/I'll tear the sun down/Tell me a happy ending story . . . . Oh, I swear, you're killing me, you're killing me/Oh, I swear, you're breaking me again/Oh, I swear, you're breaking me, you're haunting me/Oh, I swear, you're killing me again . . . . Is that me crying?/The stars crash down, don't let them in/Is that me dying?/Tell me a happy ending story . . . ."
Oh yeah, I forgot this:
http://www.robertchristgau.com/get_artist.php?name=Hole
"Live Through This [DGC, 1994]
Punk aesthetic or no punk aesthetic, Courtney Love's songs wouldn't be compromised and might be deepened by steeper momentum and more articulate guitar noise. But they prevail anyway. Their focus is sexual exploitation, and not just by the media, evil straights, and male predators of every cultural orientation. She's also exploited by Courtney Love, and not only does she know it, she thinks about it. These are the confessions of a self-made feminist bimbo--of the girl who wanted the most cake. Just because she's a phony, whatever that means, doesn't mean the world isn't out to deny her her props. A"
http://www.robertchristgau.com/get_a...=Courtney+Love
"America's Sweetheart [Virgin, 2004]
Her celebrity on steroids and her voice in shreds, a drug-abusing unfit mother charms, fucks, or buffalos her way into some old-fashioned major-label money, commits commercial compromise on demand, and delivers an album as invigorating in its contempt for rock professionalism as Neil Young's Tonight's the Night. If the little girls barely know who she is, good--a lifestyle irresponsibly seductive in a powerful person like Keith Richards is only pitiably misguided in this has-been waiting to happen. But she's right about one thing. The world does owe her a living. A-"
http://www.robertchristgau.com/get_artist.php?name=Hole
'Nobody's Daughter [Mercury, 2010]
Most people don't like her, and actually, I don't either. So I can't claim you owe it to yourself to enjoy Courtney Love's much-delayed first-album-since-2004. Nor even that these songs cast a revealing light of her scabrous persona--beyond "Pacific Coast Highway" ("I'm overwhelmed and undersexed") and "Never Go Hungry" ("I don't care what I have to pretend"), they're typical wails of punk-schooled rage from "Skinny Little Bitch" to "Letter to God." Thing is, I can use some new punk rage in my life, and unless you're a fan of Goldman Sachs and BP Petroleum, so can you. What's more, better it come from a 45-year-old woman who knows how to throw her weight around than from the zitty newbies and tattooed road dogs who churn most of it out these days. I know--for her, BP Petroleum is just something else to pretend about. But the emotion fueling her pretense is cathartic nevertheless. A-'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BI-df-ynvOs
"I knew a boy/He came from the sea/He was the only boy who ever knew the truth about me/I'm overwhelmed and undersexed/Baby, what did you expect?/I'm overwrought and so disgraced/I'm too ashamed to show my face/And they're coming to take me away now/What I want I will never have . . . All of this world’s shame won’t stop my arrival/And all this world’s fame and drugs and plague won’t stop my survival . . . And I’ve lost myself completely/I look to you my shooting star . . . And you know I’m drowning . . . Miles and miles of regret/It hasn’t happened and it won’t happen yet . . . And miles and miles of regret . . . Pacific Coast Highway, I crashed/Pacific Coast Highway, anguish/Pacific Coast Highway, you better live/Pacific Coast Highway"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-UjbECGh3g
“ . . . when you’re gone it gets so cold/I swear I’m too young to be this old . . . Yes, I crawled on glass to grasp at straws/Stuttering, staggering through/And I’ve pierced the last hole in my arm/To gouge out the pieces of you/And your staggering, stuttering greed/And your never ending need/And your terrible awful deeds/And your lack of truth in these things/You know the whole thing is rigged/You’ll always quit/You always did/To the most delusional stare/And all that I have is out and laid bare . . . Oh, I’ve been bitter/You know what’s true and you know what’s right . . . I know that I’m a hungry lost girl/But please stick around/And I’ll build you a world/I’ll build you a world/I’ll build you a world...”
ESTp --- :Se::Ti: --- Organizer
using 2 subtypes: Logical Organizer (Ti-ESTp)
using 4 subtypes: Normalizing Organizer (N-ESTp)
using 8 subtypes: Social (or Anxious) Organizer (Fi-ESTp)
using 16 subtypes: Protective (or Vulnerable) Organizer (ESTp-ISFj)
http://www.billboard.com/photos/styl...03_617_409.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_p-o6lFpwSR...%252C+1992.jpg
http://www.uknet.com/showcase/Signed...ove1.sized.jpg
http://crazynotebook.files.wordpress...pg?w=122&h=150
Hmm. She's sort of a legend. Like, the perfect blend of ridiculously fake and brutally emotionally honest all wrapped into one. Making fun of the Hollywood celebrity thing but inevitably embracing it, being fully aware that life is only what we make of it. A+ Courtney.
(and Se-SLE for her type)
Excellent insights/evaluation/observations. I can't figure out her subtype. I kind of want her to be Ti-ESTp since it makes sense in terms of Kurt Cobain having been Fe-INFp (which is the consensus typing anyway) and my being Fe-INFp and plus she kind of looks like Madonna at times, and there seemed to be some dissonance between her and Trent Reznor (Ni-INFp), Marilyn Manson (Ni-ENFj)... Yet if one just looks at things in terms of two subtypes Se-ESTp seems to make more sense. I definitely think that she's ESTp-IXFx either way. Most likely either ESTp-INFp or ESTp-ISFj.
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lx...pno5o1_500.jpg
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m2...8mlxo1_500.jpg
I think when my ex-boyfriend saw this picture he said/typed something like, '...Three screw-ups in the same location...'
My ex-boyfriend thought Courtney Love VI'd ENFj. Of course in reality she VI's SLE.
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lr...sjzdo1_500.png
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfAp_I58fDU
"It's too bad/'Cause no one cares/There's not a net/There's no one there/Can you fly?/You'll never reach me/I'm too high/It's my own myth/I'll decide/To finish what I started/Like I know the meaning of life/Look at me/I'm gonna jump/There's not a net/I'm so far up . . . I know the meaning of life/It's dark but love is so light . . ."
- from ******s by Larry Kramer; pp. 24-25: . . . Jack was now going to a dyke shrink who had offered the hopeful, positive suggestion: "Mr. Humpstone, I think you may be a heterosexual manqué," and so perhaps not distant would be the day when his current inferiority . . . would vanish, freeing himself up for sparking, roaring fires with the wooing Robbie Swindon, so patiently waiting in the wings.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3dWBLoU--E
I used to sing this song at karaoke (I've also sung "Doll Parts" and "Malibu"):
"Oh make me over/I'm all I wanna be/A walking study in demonology/Hey, so glad you could make it/Yeah, now you really made it/Hey, so glad you could make it now/Oh look at my face/My name is 'might have been'/My name is 'never was'/My name's 'forgotten'/Hey, so glad you could make it/Yeah, now you really made it/Hey, there's only us left now/When I wake up/In my utopia/It's too early for that bell jar [(un)dress]/Wilted and faded somewhere in Hollywood/I'm glad I came here with your pound of flesh/No second billing/'Cause you're a star now/Oh . . . Mom/They aren't saints like you/Beautiful garbage/Beautiful dresses/Can you stand up?/Or will you just fall down/You better watch out/Oh, what you wish for/It better be worth it/So much to die for/Hey, so glad you could make it/Yeah, now you really made it/Hey, there's only us left now/When I wake up/In your dystopia/Have you ever felt so used up as this?/It's all so sugarless/Hooker, waitress/Model, actress/Oh, just go nameless/Honeysuckle, she's [he's] full of poison/She [he] obliterated everything she [he] kissed/Now she's [he's] fading/Somewhere in Hollywood/I'm glad I came here with your pound of flesh . . ."
Logical/Normalizing subtype:
http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...e_Organizer.29
'Prefer to remain in the shadows, not to demonstrate their aspirations, but constantly hold their hands on the pulse of all proceedings around them. Outwardly appears balanced and phlegmatic. Before acting, checks all versions of possible consequences and only then enters into the game. Distrustful and careful, skeptic, conservative and realistic. Because they are not very sociable, may appear to be introverted. If they have their aim on a victim, they act slowly, by the method of the "compressive ring".'
'Sexual behavior
Tend to occupy a “wait and see attitude” as they are prone to doubt others feelings towards them. Their emotional expression may appear somewhat forced as they prefer to await the initiative of others; afterwards are tender and attentive with an aim of improving sexual techniques. Internally are sentimental; love uncommon adventures. Not quick to forget past offences. Have need of someone reasonable, flexible and diplomatic. Their partner should be affectionate, attractive, merry and optimistic.'
Versus the Sensory/Harmonizing subtype:
http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...ged.2FOvcharov
"The sensory subtype is witty and impulsive… while seemingly concealing within them latent threats they appear unappeasable. However, they are sharp, aggressive and persevering people. Notably resourceful, they are able to manifest vindictiveness in doses that make life for their ill-wishers simply intolerable. Their character appears full of contrasts and unpredictability. Towards those whom they love they are often tender, even sentimental. Their sense of humor easily incorporates sarcasm and caustic irony. Are talkative, charming, witty, critical and sharp, love epithets and slang expressions. Their movements are fast and gait centered, When walking their slightly bent knees provide them with an ingratiating feline resemblance. Appreciate life and tend to watch over their health, periodically exercising through sports/gymnastics. Dresses tastefully and expensively. Usually provide a bright impression of a self-assured and prospering person."
"Sexual behavior
Demonstrative and behave unpredictably. Are sexually daring and energetic; animated in interaction and possessing feelings of humor. Are sexual and diverse in both moods and erotic reactions. Strongly emotional, are inclined to ignore the feelings and attitudes of other people and to consider their interests. An imperious and demanding partner, but can be thoughtful and affectionate. Find it difficult to restrain jealousy. Require an attentive, loyal, and reliable partner, whom will remain utterly submissive to their initiative."
Robert Christgau:
http://www.robertchristgau.com/get_artist.php?name=Hole
'Celebrity Skin [Geffen, 1998]
Better punk than actress, better actress than popster ("Celebrity Skin," "Awful"). **'
Oh, come on, SLE 7w8 is what Madonna is. She's no 3...Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilly
Yeah that seems plausible I guess, but she seems really contained for an SLE 7, and too grounded for a head-triad type IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by neverthesame
For a good example of SLE 7w8, watch Girl, Interrupted. Angelina Jolie's character is SLE-Se 7w8 sx/sp.
Fi type
A VERY typical SEE. Looks similar to scarlet johansen who is also an SEE.
I actually kind of like the Girl, Interrupted movie. I agree, SLE-Se 7w8 sx/sp for Angelina Jolie's character makes a lot of sense. I'm leaning towards IEI-Fe 4w5 sx/sp for myself, although I could be wrong about at least part of that. In some ways, although not really/entirely realistically, that movie reminded me a bit of my times in psychiatric institutions/rehabilitation places as an adolescent. Of course the most memorable being the place I was for about three months, where you just stayed there for the week and went home on the weekend. There was this girl there, who arrived there about a month after I did, and who was probably the same type as Angelina Jolie's character in Girl, Interrupted and Courtney Love: SLE-Se 7w8 sx/sp.
Madonna as a 3 makes sense I think. Courtney Love once said something about Madonna's blind ambition or something. Unfortunately, I can't find that (original) article from the '90s. Of course Courtney Love and Madonna probably have more in common then they'd like to think, although Madonna has probably perceived Courtney Love as being crazy. I think Madonna wanted to sign Courtney Love's band to her label circa 1994 I think, or around then, maybe even earlier . . . I don't know. Anyway, Courtney Love didn't want to, she went with Geffen and the rest is history. That didn't really work out in the end, but Live Through This is a brilliant album. It would've probably been weird if it was released through Madonna's label.
Here's an article I found (it's anti-Courtney), yet has some interesting quotes:
http://www.chartattack.com/news/2007...-madonna-weak/
'In the course of Love’s rambling missive she labels Madonna, "calculating" and "weak as an artist." . . . "Hard work and major discipline doesn’t equal great art and all of those are great things — I covet them. I have great discipline and do work like a bionic thing," wrote Love in typically incoherent fashion.'
Regarding Courtney Love as SEE (and/or an Fi type) one of the only things that makes that seem potentially plausible is that she adores, idolizes, and has been influenced by Bob Dylan (who some type ESI). Yet that doesn't necessarily prove anything. I like Yukio Mishima (who some type LIE) and Fyodor Dostoevsky (who many type EII) and I'm probably not an Fi type. If Mishima and Dostoevsky really are ENTj and INFj respectively, then I'd probably feel really sad (more than I already do) if I had to live in a purely Fe/Ti world. Being Fe-INFp doesn't mean one can't appreciate Fi.... and even being Fi-PoLR doesn't mean that one cannot appreciate forms of Fi (usually from one's supervisor) .... I guess that may be another reason why Courtney Love makes more sense as an Se-ESTp (as opposed to a Ti-ESTp) if Bob Dylan is Se-ISFj.
I was wondering, if Courtney Love said things like "when I was in school I was really shy" and "I was so quiet. I was the quietest person . . ." then (if she is Se-ESTp) is she more likely to be, say, the Harmonizing subtype, or can she still be the Creative or Dominant subtype? This subtype thing kind of confuses me because I've seen stuff on the16types that would say Se-ESTp is Creative or Dominant and Ti-ESTp is Normalizing or Harmonizing, while on wikisocion for example a description that can be found under Se-ESTp is also used to describe the Harmonizing subtype on a different page.
E minor (Cancer)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cH_rfGBwamc&ob=av2e
"You should learn when to go/You should learn how to say 'No' . . . When they get what they want and they never want it again . . . Go on, take everything, take everything, I want you to . . . Yeah, I'm the one with no soul . . . Go on, take everything, take everything, I dare you to/I told you from the start just how this would end/When I get what I want and I never want it again"
This is probably one of the only Hole songs my Mom (sort of) likes--"Best Sunday Dress" [I think at least part of it was originally written by Kat Bjelland (must've been that 'chamber music' band they had a long time ago). [Of course if one were to describe it more accurately, the original "Best Sunday Dress" was more just a collaborative effort between Kat Bjelland and Courtney Love in their band at the time -- Pagan Babies.] Strong Fleetwood Mac/Stevie Nicks influence. Most of the lyrics are Courtney's (I'm assuming). Since there are extra lyrics/passages that weren't in the Pagan Babies original version then it's safe to say that Eric Erlandson also contributed to a bit of the music as well on this one.]
A minor (Sagittarius) [from what I remember]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSKKqlMh_Ak
" . . . And I walk straight into this mess of mine . . . Watching you burn . . . Watch me with his sorrow/Forgive me all his pain/And I've come here to confess/To the wind and the rain and the glorious fame/And I've come here all undressed/For the numb and the dumb all say the name that you burn . . . Take him to the river/Forgive us all his pain . . . I'm coming undone/He comes from the coal mine/I see you shine like a diamond and curse us all goodnight/And I put on my best sunday dress/And I walk straight into this mess of mine/And I come here all undressed/For the poison and pain and you take what is mine/That you burn . . . Take me to his sorrow/Forgive us all his pain . . . Watching you burn . . ."
I actually like Scarlett Johansson somewhat. Vicky Cristina Barcelona was a pretty good movie, and I particularly liked what I think was the last line of the movie (or at least close to it anyway) -- I kind of related to it. Even her role/acting in Lost in Translation made the movie seem better than it really was [regarding Sofia Coppola I like The Virgin Suicides a lot more; Lost in Translation reminded me a bit of the Saint Etienne (and Étienne Daho) song "He's on the Phone" (D Major/Aquarius) which I also like quite a bit.] I'm going to assume that Scarlett Johansson is either an Se-dominant or Fe-dominant type. I don't really care to narrow down her type beyond that right now (although of course other people already have).Quote:
Originally Posted by Maritsa Darmandzhyan
Regarding the Se-ESTp girl I knew at the psychiatric rehab (8 years ago) [she was somewhat similar to Brody Dalle, Courtney Love, etc. (yet I think she was actually 12-years-old or so at the time] . . . anyway I recently talked to this EIE guy who I knew from there, and I wrote, "i thought [the Se-ESTp girl] was cool", and he replied, "she was as long as she was being kind!"
bump
Crikey she drives me crazy, i really can't stand her. It's odd, there is some attraction, but it's poisonious...she's about as toxic as fucked up ESTP's come.
She is such a heroine. Candid, aggressive, wild, self-destructive, she's like my SLE soul mate.Though the intense unhingedness is quite off putting...like a warning to other betas about where we could end up if we just went with the impulse.
She seems utterly lost and crazy.
I always liked her creativity.
Maybe? I don't know her, but at least I have no interest in meeting her in a dark alley.Quote:
Originally Posted by blackburry
SLE
i can't vi too many surgeries
http://topnews.in/files/Courtney_Love_11.JPG
SXE for sure, I lean towards SLE.
kate winslet has always seemed hot to me , but i tend to take her for a delta nf . same with winona, i thought fi dominant.
^^ that happens to be my last movie. Never considered sle for Hanna as a character, i was going for LSI. But why not a fi polr , after all...classic LSI figure in a related situation would probably be Gerd Wiesler in The Lives of Others.
I actually think Michael's value interrogation after he finds out Hanna had been involved with the SS is more indicative of Fi than of Fe. A Fe type would be more likely to show solidarity with a person without questioning their acts or to be vindictive cause of resentment (Hanna had left him without warning). The whole problematic of coming to terms with the Nazi past, whether that should be understood or condemned and of individual or collective guilt sounds kind of Fi to me. Even when he doesn't know if he should tell the court about her secret illiteracy or not, he tries to find an answer through a debate on ethics, freedom and dignity with his father (prolly LII lol). Just as an example : "..my awkwardness was not the result of real feeling, but of thinking about the way one is supposed to feel after visiting a concentration camp". I've tried not to jump headfirst in the trap of thinking that a dude who ends up into legal history must be a thinking type ;).Quote:
Originally Posted by Ankh
SLE. wonder about her enneagram type, she doesn't seem like the typical EP-7 mix
updated: enneagram 9w1 so/sp
they are very differentQuote:
reminds me a bit of Madonna in ways
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBTl611c9fs
SLE-Se ...she´s too chaotic for E 8 and E 3. I´d go with E7.
well, Madonna really has her shit together and is much more talented.
Lol Courtney Love is a fine example of my worst drunken drugged up moment ever...but ALL THE TIME
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solaris
Yeah I could buy LSE for Madonna.
Madonna is clearly SLE. As for Courtney, I think she's an LSE-like SLE.Quote:
Originally Posted by Boudica
I thought she was LSE for long, because of the style of clothes she wears ("rock" rather than "hot" + attention to details in the outfit, like nails, lipstick and coloured shoes, being more colourful and "retro" than Betas (particularly SLEs) normally are), and because she can be so extremely direct (even rude) to people, in a way SLEs normally don't dare (Fe HA + Fi PoLR means most XLEs will not dare to say the things LSEs dare say). I now think she's SLE because of her dating history. From VI I still find her more LSE-looking (think Gillian Anderson, Mick Jagger) than SLE looking (most similar SLE would be Kate Winslet, maybe?)
I think they´re both SLEs, but Madonna is simply smarter as a woman (and not only) and she has better tools for success with her music and her voice. She´s been extremely creative and "shape-shifting", able to adapt to trends and so on. Courtney Love has never produced one single song as good as Madonna´s.
closest match to Courtney that I can think of would be Karla Homolka, who is rare enneagram variant for a SLE - 9w1 soc
Karla
http://i.imgur.com/oMc88ZU.jpg
Courtney
http://i.imgur.com/SkWZuMK.jpg
I see her as sle-se and enneagram 8w7 sx/so...
Me too, I'm just undecided between 8w7 and 7w8.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kill4Me
I hope Courtney is drunk or otherwise not sober in this vid?Quote:
Originally Posted by silke
her eyes look like a couple rocks to me...doesn't seem to be any tonal difference between them and the rest of her.Quote:
Originally Posted by darya
not even a slight friction jamming her antennae...no cracks of vulnerability coming through or getting in.
she's just there...instinctively moving around (gut > head)....
http://images.starpulse.com/pictures...SPX-012068.jpg
http://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/a97a...rtney-Love.jpg
http://cdn.stylefrizz.com/img/courtn...nuary-2010.jpg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ananke
All I know is that 1) "Violet" is some kind of awesome hidden symbology skullfuckery; some days I even like her better than Kurt, I need to hear more of her albums 2) Courtney' statement "I have Catholic damage, too." makes me think she is hilarious and awesome and I totally want to chill with her 3) Madonna seems like a total stick in the ass and everything I have heard of her music sounds like the rest of the synth-soaked, unedgy garbage of my mother's generation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Boudica
So yeah maybe they aren't the same type.
Ti-SLE. energy is too open and scattered for me to think 7w8 doesn't work... not quite compressed enough for 8. and sx/so. Madonna is likely 3w4 sx/so, a bit more composed and controlled.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0dRG4wdFE0
“ . . . Somebody kill me / Kill me [Tylenol] / No one cares, my friends . . . Watch me break and watch me burn / No one can hear me, my friends . . . Suck me under: maybe forever, my friends . . . ”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABba7g3RriU
“He hit me, and it felt like a kiss / He hit me, but it didn't hurt me / He couldn't stand to hear me say that I had been with someone new / and when I told him I had been untrue.... / He hit me, and it felt like a kiss / He hit me, and I knew he loved me / ‘Cause if he didn't care for me, I could have never made him mad. / And he hit me, and I was glad / Baby, won't you stay? / Baby, won’t you stay? / Baby, won’t you stay? . . . // He hit me, and it felt like a kiss / He hit me, and I knew I loved him / ‘Cause when he took me in his arms with all the tenderness there is / He hit me, and he made me feel / Baby, won't you stay? / Baby, won’t you stay? / Baby, won’t you stay? . . .”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SP71CfPUXq0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhAu1Bw-pH8
“ . . . I'm not that stupid; I just need a lot of help to understand how stupid you really are. / Down at the bottom of the ocean, I lay down / Nobody's coming / Just continue to drown / And no one here could ever stop my ruin . . . And I know I've got not to fear / He'll get me out / Oh, God, just get me out of here / Are you astounding us, surrounding us? / And asphyxiate all your pain away / Don't try to win: it will only end in disgrace . . . You don't understand how damaged we really are / You don't understand how evil we really are / And I will dig my own grave, yeah / I'm misbegotten / I am the last one you save here / Of course I'll sleep forever and forever / Anesthetize all your horrors away / We live inside this black web that you have spun / Greed and your bile is miles away / Don't tell me I have lost when clearly I've won / I want to see you stretched out on the floor / The world's broken doll, the world's shattered whore / And you, you can't walk / But you, can you crawl? / Come on, infect us all / Asphyxiate all your pain away / Don't try to win; it will only end in disgrace / Translucent as the cold light of day / It's glorious / It's terrible / God, I need it / It's beautiful / It's ravenous / I'll just feed it / Coil down to your dark black decay / And I will dig my own grave, yeah / I'm misbegotten / I am the last one you save here / It's all gone rotten”
http://guestofaguest.com/new-york/ev....kvqlwz7Y.dpuf
Courtney Love, “AND THIS IS WAR”
“Movie stars need to be alive. Artists need to be dead,” said Courtney Love, in one of her opening remarks at the Guggenheim’s “Last Word” conference. And I was struck by how, well, intelligent the observation was. The last time I had seen Ms. Love perform was with her band Hole at Washington D.C. 9:30 Club in 2010, where after a string of disasters, including tirades against critics and audience members, she removed her shirt and performed an encore topless.
That train wreck bore absolutely no resemblance to this poised, clothed (if slightly short-skirted) woman, who with glasses, podium, and prepared notes seemed more likely to lecture on Roland Barthes than flash her breasts. Her chosen epitaph, the appropriately antonymous and angrily cap-locked “AND THIS IS WAR,” directly challenged the tawdry image of herself splashed across the pages of public opinion.
Her revelations ranged in wisdom, but each added depth to a character society would insist was flat. Much of it addressed her formative years: “I had a trust fund…just a small one,” she said, winking at the audience, while alluding to the numerous boarding schools she had been expelled from. Class, or class perception, seemed to have mattered a great deal in her family. Her mother once slapped her for saying, “Yabba, dabba, doo!” an expression she considered too “middle-class” for her daughter to speak aloud.
As a child, Ms. Love yearned for fame: “I thought, all I want to do is feel famous…[I thought:] Fame will protect me from bad people.” She perceived celebrity at the time as a protective "white light" that would guide her through her troubles. Introspective and reflective, she discussed the shattering of this youthful misconception, and addressed both the highs and lows of her life in the spotlight.
Not short-skirting her way around her infamy, Ms. Love revealed that she once googled her name with the word “drunk,” and was surprised by the number of hits (around 2.5 million). “I’ve only been drunk 8 or 9 times in my life,” she swore, citing the drugs as the primary cause of her past erratic behavior. And how many hits came up when she googled "Courtney Love" and "sexy"? "Only one," she said, sadly.
In a tie-in with Mr. Cattalen, Ms. Love discussed her new occupation as a visual artist. She's been drawing sketches and marketing them to potential art buyers, one of whom raised a particular drawing's value because she may have drawn it "on the toilet," she laughed.
She also revealed that billionaire men tend to flock to her in order to share their own problems and addictions. One in particular, an unnamed prominent art dealer, discussed his conflicted emotions about wishing artist friends like David LaChapelle dead, so that their collections would increase in value. The secret troubled Ms. Love, who after discussing the problem with her psychiatrist, concluded that for successful businessmen, enough can never be enough. Be it the accumulation of art or its creation, businessmen or artists, "When we quit, we're dead," Ms. Love sagely concluded. It was nearly 2:00 a.m. before she strutted off the stage, svelte and sober, a woman clearly not ready to call it quits.
http://24.media.tumblr.com/b00a7dc0d...ptso1_1280.jpg
http://alternativenation.net/wp-cont...dcourtney3.jpg
http://ak-hdl.buzzfed.com/static/201...97473653-3.jpg
http://guestofaguest.com/new-york/ev....kvqlwz7Y.dpuf
Courtney Love, “AND THIS IS WAR”
“Movie stars need to be alive. Artists need to be dead,” said Courtney Love, in one of her opening remarks at the Guggenheim’s “Last Word” conference. And I was struck by how, well, intelligent the observation was. The last time I had seen Ms. Love perform was with her band Hole at Washington D.C. 9:30 Club in 2010, where after a string of disasters, including tirades against critics and audience members, she removed her shirt and performed an encore topless.
That train wreck bore absolutely no resemblance to this poised, clothed (if slightly short-skirted) woman, who with glasses, podium, and prepared notes seemed more likely to lecture on Roland Barthes than flash her breasts. Her chosen epitaph, the appropriately antonymous and angrily cap-locked “AND THIS IS WAR,” directly challenged the tawdry image of herself splashed across the pages of public opinion.
Her revelations ranged in wisdom, but each added depth to a character society would insist was flat. Much of it addressed her formative years: “I had a trust fund…just a small one,” she said, winking at the audience, while alluding to the numerous boarding schools she had been expelled from. Class, or class perception, seemed to have mattered a great deal in her family. Her mother once slapped her for saying, “Yabba, dabba, doo!” an expression she considered too “middle-class” for her daughter to speak aloud.
As a child, Ms. Love yearned for fame: “I thought, all I want to do is feel famous…[I thought:] Fame will protect me from bad people.” She perceived celebrity at the time as a protective "white light" that would guide her through her troubles. Introspective and reflective, she discussed the shattering of this youthful misconception, and addressed both the highs and lows of her life in the spotlight.
Not short-skirting her way around her infamy, Ms. Love revealed that she once googled her name with the word “drunk,” and was surprised by the number of hits (around 2.5 million). “I’ve only been drunk 8 or 9 times in my life,” she swore, citing the drugs as the primary cause of her past erratic behavior. And how many hits came up when she googled "Courtney Love" and "sexy"? "Only one," she said, sadly.
In a tie-in with Mr. Cattalen, Ms. Love discussed her new occupation as a visual artist. She's been drawing sketches and marketing them to potential art buyers, one of whom raised a particular drawing's value because she may have drawn it "on the toilet," she laughed.
She also revealed that billionaire men tend to flock to her in order to share their own problems and addictions. One in particular, an unnamed prominent art dealer, discussed his conflicted emotions about wishing artist friends like David LaChapelle dead, so that their collections would increase in value. The secret troubled Ms. Love, who after discussing the problem with her psychiatrist, concluded that for successful businessmen, enough can never be enough. Be it the accumulation of art or its creation, businessmen or artists, "When we quit, we're dead," Ms. Love sagely concluded. It was nearly 2:00 a.m. before she strutted off the stage, svelte and sober, a woman clearly not ready to call it quits.
My guess would be Se-ego leaning towards SLE
Courtney Love: Se-ESTp (Creative subtype) [ESTp-ENFp]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLL0fkHODwA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2WEZktQ0fs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFkGyDx_0c4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIbu7QtuARk
https://imgix.ranker.com/user_node_i...rop&crop=faces
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-DdLeBuCnz...ney-love-1.jpg
Easy ESTp.
SEE-Se
Where's her logic?
Where's her Fi?Quote:
Originally Posted by Olimpia
You can't compare Madonna and Courtney Love. Madonna is a pop singer who produces music for the masses. Courtney is a punk-rocker with wild image of a rock star. For people who like pop, there won't ever be anyone better than Madonna, but for people who don't listen to pop music and prefer rock, Courtney's the real deal. The way she plays her fearless, badass songs is worthy of a rock'n'roll queen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amber
What would you expect her to demonstrate in terms of logic to convince you she is SLE?Quote:
Originally Posted by Olimpia
I find only the heavy :Ti: subtype of SLE appears logical in the sense of making logically thorough arguments for the sake of it, the :Se: subtypes and slight :Ti: subtypes use logic mainly to solve problems on the fly. The heavy :Ti: subs also slove problems on the fly, but they are more prone to studying intellectual problems closely. Not that an :Se: SLE can't study intellectual problems but they aeren't likely to value logic for its own sake and thus their logic is mainly used to solve concerns of an :Se: nature.
In the case of Love, her :Fi: polr is obvious from her rash behavior. Or maybe that's at least partly due to the drugs, idk. In any case she doesn't have to invent a new math theorem to prove to me she's a :Ti: ego type if that's what you mean, and if you mean she behaves in an illogical manner I would attribute that to a good dose of Vicodin mixed with celebrity status getting to her head, lol.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Owl
Quote:
Love has also advocated for LGBT rights throughout her career: In 1997, she used her award speech at the MTV Fashion Awards to advocate for acceptance of the LGBT community. [...] Love has also supported the Sophie Lancaster Foundation[352] as well as LGBT youth charities, specifically with the Los Angeles Gay and Lesbian Center, where she has taken part in several of the center's "An Evening with Women" events.[353] The proceeds of the event help provide food and shelter for homeless youth; services for seniors; legal assistance; domestic violence services; health and mental health services, and cultural arts programs. Love participated with Linda Perry for the event in 2012, and performed alongside Aimee Mann and comedian Wanda Sykes. Speaking on her collaboration on the event, Love said: "Seven thousand kids in Los Angeles a year go out on the street, and forty percent of those kids are gay, lesbian, or transgendered. They come out to their parents, and become homeless... for whatever reason, I don't really know why, but gay men have a lot of foundations—I've played many of them—but the lesbian side of it doesn't have as much money and/or donors, so we're excited that this has grown to cover women and women's affairs."
Feminism and LGBT rights are clearly a personal matter for her to the point she feels the need to enforce it in the social sphere, which is rather Gamma SF > Beta ST, or more broadly F > T. STs do not really care for such matters, or at least they wouldn't try to establish them in the social sphere, their strengths lie elsewhere. The only Beta that might do that is EIE, though they rarely focus on minority groups like LGBT, which is more of an Fi thing (personal values over the masses), and rather on bigger groups, like MLK Jr did with the black movement.Quote:
“I am a feminist and I’ve always thought of myself as a feminist. What I don’t like about feminism and the far left in general is the in-fighting, the way that the far left in-fights too much to get anything done and I feel like in feminism it’s like, ‘well, she’s not really feminist enough’ and there can be this kind of less-than thing in feminism."
Anyhow, it is difficult to "prove" introverted IEs in that way. It is much easier to look at other clues, like club related ones. Again, she fits SF much better than ST. She lacks ST pragmatism. Her focus is on social matters and fashion (besides music; and I could argue that the music sphere is full of Ethicals especially Gamma SFs but that is for another day). There's nothing that indicates preoccupations that indicate stronger logic or an ST streak. The Se subtype certainly brings her closer to ST, and her Sx/So stacking seems to give her Beta values. Beyond that, I find F makes way more sense than T for her.
To freshen up the memory or understanding of Clubs:
ST, Pragmatists: "When a group consists of members of this club, but without either of the two quadras having greater weight, its interactions are likely to be based on sports activities or discussion of, or cooperation in, projects related to manual work and engineering. Very typical examples of groups formed mainly of members of this club are groups of car enthusiasts where actively repairing and refurbishing them with their own hands is a key component of their activities." Note: If an ST is not a car enthusiast he is often into some other mechanical device, typically motorcycles.
SF, Socials: "When a group consists of members of this club, but without either of the two quadras having greater weight, its interactions are likely to be based on enjoying conversations over their families and personal relationships, artistic and sensorial interests such as cooking, gossip, and group social activities such as parties, dancing, travels and sportive activities. It's the stereotypical "women's group", although obviously such clubs formed only of men also exist, with common activities and interests usually focused around sports or, depending on the age structure, partying, clubbing and the like."
Being a feminist, standing for LGBT rights, and helping the homeless is completely NTR. C'mon now.
It has something to do with Ethics, clearly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avebury
Very rare to see someone with Fi PoLR standing up for personal moral values in that way.
Helping the homeless is not necessarily Fi, but feminism and LGBT commonly is related to Fi (if not valued then usually Demonstrative). You'd be hard-pressed to find a Logical type that is focused on endorsing feminism or LGBT. That's the preoccupation of Ethicals, not Logicals. The only Logicals I've seen doing that were mostly Fi HA. Maybe Role once in a blue moon. Definitely not PoLR.
Besides all that, her brain and thinking seem entirely unstructured logically. Another point for a lack of Ti. She doesn't put things into logical categories or boxes. She is very chaotic in that sense. That is more typical of Ti PoLR.
But it could be :Fe:.Quote:
Originally Posted by Olimpia
And she could be following a trend. Maybe she doesn't see it as personal moral values, but something that reflects the values of her entourage? It's hard to say, as the reasons one has for doing something are more important than what you actually do, in socionics. Also, I know an Fe-EIE who is very into gender issues and LGBT rights, she just processes the information related to those subjects differently than an :Fi: ego would.
She has the same face features of an MBTI INFJ friend of mine, eheheheheh
anyway... why is none talking of the fact that she killed KC? >(
You mean the rumor?Quote:
Originally Posted by ooo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avebury
there's plenty of telly signs
Yea.Quote:
Originally Posted by ooo
But it's not proven though, so not really fact.
I had an LSI friend who was convinced she killed him, and he showed me a documentary about it, I mean there are some signs like you said but it's nothing conclusive so I got annoyed at my friend for his conviction she killed him. It seemed to me he liked to entertain the idea because 1) he didn't like her and 2) it's more colorful an explanation than him killing himself.
I'm kind of annoyed by people like my friend who believe in conspiracy theories, lol.
I was thinking the same as u when an ENTJ friend was so convinced about she killing him that I started doing my researches online and that idea became a pretty scary evidence... yes there's no evidence actually but a lot of hints. Like Michael Hastings* found dead with 2 head gunshots, and it's been passed as suicide. Nonsense, I agree.
oh I confused the guys it was Gary Webb*, well a lot of mysteries.
Michael Hastings? The journalist? Google and Wikipedia say he died in a car crash and wikipedia says conspiracies about his death were related to the FBI, not Courtney Love.
Unless you mean a different guy?
:oops: got confused kk
It's ok that's why I'm here. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by ooo
btw my comment was sort of a joke coz I saw nobody pointing out how foul she looks....
but seriously O.o check out Gary Webb
btw it's sad but I know someone who tried to kill herself with a gunshot at her temple and she survived, so yeah, everything's possible and...never trust your guns guys.
I agree with Se+, not sure if Ti of Fi, she looks somewhat like a calculator, and yet she's been following her heart, or maybe business?, both? since she was little. She went through much trauma since a child and this has probably molded her personality in unhealthy ways. Ni is present in her too, like super-ID pouring all out... which makes me wonder if she isn't actually an IEI gone twisted.
the conspiracy is a pretty crazy idea :oops: ashamed for bringing it up, guess it's a pretty emo reaction to a tragic event and Courtney's image has never helped in this sense... I've been a grunge fan growing up and for some reason have never ever listened to the Hole, I really couldn't like Ms Love, so when I went through the conspiracy some centuries ago it was like woah!, everything clicks! XD poor Courtney, she's such a devastated person... I feel bad for thinking so bad.
I feel a ton of affinity and sympathy for her even tho she doesn't get under my skin and I think if I knew her we'd have a superficial aquaintanceship at best. I think it might be more about antipathy towards her detractors. But some hole songs were really important to me in high school.
SLE and too much of a mess to have gotten away with murdering K.
I saw her perform live once and she had a huge, powerful stage presence that took me by surprise.
I don't think she killed him but she possibly fostered an environment that pushed him towards suicide. I suspect that an SLE or SEE can tolerate a lot more drugs than an IEI, so if she pushed him to the same limit that could have led to him falling apart.Quote:
Originally Posted by aster
Courtney Love....SLE-Se 7w8 so/sx.
SLE: she is naturally athletic, competitive, tough, lots of take charge energy, animalistic, likes to fight, likes to rehearse, likes to be feared, likes to do punch outs on people's faces, thrives in confrontation and is very territorial.
She has an 8 wing, but that's not her core type. She is too soft and self-indulgent for an 8....she is/was a drug addict, had difficulty kicking the habit (probably blames it on a genetic predisposition), smokes like a chimney, does yoga, chants to buddha, gravitates in her weight, seems at the complete mercy of appetites, has had numerous work done on her face (body issues), easily cries during interviews, has a lot of friends, is popular. her lack of mental toughness is also evident in her distortion of causality....I don't have the interviews on hand....but like she thinks watching a certain movie will turn her song-writing lyrics real badass because the movie is about somebody who writes badass song lyrics and then telling somebody "if you watch that movie you'll write like amazing song writing lyrics." there's a proneness to comfort seeking style though (9 fix*). I could picture her hearing a love song in a club and saying, "oh my god that's me and Kurt's song....this is him trying to tell me something!" She reminds me of this girl who thinks she's a medium based off some line of reasoning that makes no sense and swears that there is a city underneath Washington DC. That leads me into what Love is all about:
Core enneagram motivation: Subversion/nonconformity (Type 7 is the rebel of the enneagram and prone towards expansive thinking.)
Main preoccupation: Freedom
If she were to die prematurely due to any trait of personality, it would be due to her going too far in her desire to subvert norms, for sure.
The suggestion that 9w1 is her core type is without merit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RA32svN7n0
Sorry man, sorry, sorry, I've got a bad eye / I shouldn't have looked at it . . . . Go away, go away on the sugar star / Sugar star and the abortionist . . . F*****g ran away with my abortionist . . . And the knife they used to gut my face in / It's been stabbing baby, baby angels / And smile, smile . . . My virus is raging, it's breaking my bones, oh / Mrs. Jones, please, Mrs. Jones . . . Sorry man, I'm sorry, I shouldn't have looked at it / I'm sorry man, you're a night blooming sickle cell / Night blooming sickle cell / I ran away, I ran away / Look into the bloodroot you suicide b***h / It takes an hour like you to make me want to live / Sorry man, I'm sorry, man / The sky's a narcotic with blackjack bones / Oh Mrs. Jones / Oh Mrs. Jones / Come get your dog, it won't leave me alone / Oh Mrs. Jones / Please Mrs. Jones / My virus is raging and it's breaking my bones / Oh Mrs. Jones / Please Mrs. Jones / Oh, cry me a river, baby, just take me home / Oh Mrs. Jones / Oh Mrs. Jones / Sister ectoplasma, she's incredulous / Just like a pro she takes off her dress / And she kicks you down in her snow white pumps / Just remember it was me who found the lie . . . . East is east and west is west / And mine was you / And mine was the best / And east is east and west is west / And mine was you / And mine was blind, was gold . . .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opTj-6xiM6A
. . . She lost all here innocence / Gave it to an abscess . . .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13wXAHRS8Eg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyYhtiCKpAM
. . . . There you go in your Nazi car / Oh babydoll, what a whore you are / And you sit around with your old rag / How can I, how can I talk when you, you've got the gag? / Here you come, sucking my energy / And you suck it up, baby, right off the street in a babydoll / In the dark I, I destroy what, what I began, what I destroy / She's hanging in the blossom tree / Oh, babydoll just bleeds for me . . . Babydoll, she's on the field / Her chemical wedding and her chemical peel / I knife me and I slash mine / And I knife me and I slash mine . . . . "I am, I am," she says / "I am not free," she says / "Help me, I am withering..." / Hang on, you'll get your soul / It's a soul / Hey, it's a soul, a soul comes out
lmao.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol
Says the man who says Fi types cannot be "rude"
I prefer do not use so absolute opinions about types, but may express high assurance. During years I changed many opinions about types to think not by possibilities about them.Quote:
Originally Posted by thegreenfaerie
As general style to be rude - very not common for Fi types. It's against their values and strong qualities by which people organise own life and lives of others. By the theory, as the care about emotional comfort relates to Fi, so generally Fi types are significantly lesser rude, lesser use bad words, lesser express negative emotions than Fe.
So I said about high _possibility_ to have a type when exists some behavior. The more of unusual for some type, meanwhile that is more usual for other type - the lesser chance 1st type exists. Also I take into account contexts, the degree and how general a trait expresses.
Jung type is one of factors and other factors may lead to unusual behavior. For example, psycho disorders, drugs, much of alcohol usage may predispose to be lesser cute than average for that type.
Nonverbal behavior related to types is rather stable to external factors, the reason it always should be taken into account and trusted more for not close known people as famouses. Medias may attract the attention on bad to catch higher interest, what creates worser general image; or may do too good image. Anyway, she seems much used drugs and this could worsen the behavior in some her times, situations and mb affected her personality.
-
You and Maritsa are Fe with excellent but _possibilities_. :) If I'd had Ti type, mb I'd not perceived you as redundantly rude or harsh, but perceived you as bright and fluffy to type to Fe.
@shotgunfingers
can be your dual. may have a talk with him about your hobbies, interests and life views. a dual should perceive you in more positive terms
^^; lol. In truth I wasn't convinced of being Alpha NT until I read the rational descriptions and couldn't relate or even begin to imagine what it might be like to have Fi in the ego block. Ti-Fe for sure in my case.
@Sol there is a kind of saying on the internet, when a certain User is often mentioned by other users and talked about. I have said this before, "you live in almost everyone's head here". They think of you a lot it seems.. hahaha
Someones disagree with my opinions and may argue by different ways.Quote:
Originally Posted by shotgunfingers
Fairy repeated my argument against her Fi type which she thought at herself in the past.
"covid 007" for some time had my mention in his profile :) after my insisting for his F type there was "Sol's emo club"
After learning a little more about her, it's probably E8 after all. A friend thought she could be LSE, citing an interview where she basically trounced on Madonna's (SLE E3) moment, but I'm not sure how that would be reconciled with Cobain's type.
What makes you assume this isn't the case for myself and other members of the site? This place is Neurosis Central. I've mentioned having a past with substances, lol. I'm not going to continue this argument, I feel bad for you Sol, truly. I have sympathy for you and want to like you/like you decently enough, but seriously with your typing stuff, I feel really bad for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol
@thegreenfaerie
"TIM 469 Delta NF"
read something adequate
Cobain seemed like a troubled INFj to me.
Grunge was a delta NF philosophical movement. Moving away from a Punk era. The Pacific Northwest to this day is a very delta aristocratic place.
Yeah I feel like it's a pretty NF place in general. I've been there many times, it is great. Definitely feels like you can just be yourself. I could see some sprinkles of alpha NT, at least ILE, for some reason tooQuote:
Originally Posted by timber
I saw some parts of a show called Portlandia, in which everyone was Alpha.Quote:
Originally Posted by thegreenfaerie
I've only vaguely watched Portlandia, but yeah I could see that lol. Definitely is that sort of quirky, nerdy, Ne vibe as well. Definitely also a lot of beta and delta NF's as well though. I have some friends there. One is a beta NF, one is a delta NF lol :p , but a lot of magical people too, faeries and wizards and such lol. I saw a dude standing over a grave on the way back from some waterfalls in a black cloak doing some sort of chanting. Lots of new age people, etc. Basically, all the super weird people, though it's slowly (or maybe not so slowly) become more yuppie and gentrified, people there aren't happy about itQuote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
That’s a very vivid description of the city and it’s weird inhabitants. I could see it being a destination for people who are seeking something that they can’t find elsewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by thegreenfaerie
Regarding Ne weirdness, I happen to have 4D, normally unvalued, Ne, and when I was doing a lot of miscellaneous drugs during my first year in college and was trying to break free of the person my mother tried to make me into, I bought (and wore) a long coat and a top hat exactly like one worn by the Mad Hatter in Alice In Wonderland. It’s amazing what you can do with enough Ne.
Lmao, that's awesome. You can find any people dressed in such attire there : DQuote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
You might as well type Kurt and Courtney as a pair.
Kurt EII (usually mistyped as IEI)
Courtney LSE
they are duals.