Ok so I dont have any common sense. Better safe than sorry?Quote:
Originally Posted by Maritsa
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Ok so I dont have any common sense. Better safe than sorry?Quote:
Originally Posted by Maritsa
Is there ever an instance where you can address someones PoLR and not have it wound them? The main issue with conflicting types is they hate eachother or always feel scolded by eachother which leads to resentment?Quote:
Originally Posted by poops magoops
Don't listen to Maritsa. She doesn't know what she's talking about.
In a nutshell, when EII seeks Te they act soft and cuddly...they play dumb in ways that requires somebody to step in and give them an explanation...that provokes Te (LSE) to step in and coach. Because the soft and cuddly EII seemingly puts up no resistance Te is totally activated for LSE, and LSE-EII dual. Ideally. That's basically what the essence of LSE is....the coach. Where LSE will step in to coach a blunt SLE will step in to tell the EII they're a simple-minded idiot, a whore, liar, and a weakling, and to toughen up. Realistically, SLE makes EII uncomfortable seeking Te...and a wise EII intuitively knows that SLE stands in the way of their ability to dualize.
None of my SLE friends called me that. Those things are a matter of maturity... what SLE do say that is upsetting they will call their wives"my dumb wife" I guess it's the same thing. :( why would you say such things to people anyway. I guess they don't think about it as hurting people's feelings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kill4Me
But that's just part of a rude joke right?
I don't like resistance. I like discussion.
Ive never played dumb(Im really just dumb lol). But yeah I can totally see that happening. Ill try this out with a few people who I suspect to be lse and sle. See how they react.Thank you for your input!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kill4Me
Relations with SLEs seem great until I see the Fi-polr in them. I generally get along with them really well, both of us being accepting, laid back, optimistic types, but they can get fixated on their relations with other people in an unhealthy way and start demanding that their loved ones "prove" their worth by living up to a vision that might be incredibly childish--something their IEI duals probably wouldn't even let go unchecked in the first place, but I feel helpless to say anything. Example: An SLE who was staying with is, who I genuinely get along with most of the time, decided he wanted to blow his entire $10K tax return on a rave. Because it had always been "his dream" to host a rave and he thought he wouldn't be able to live with himself if it never happened. He has two kids and a girlfriend he supports (girlfriend seems IEE). The girlfriend expressed reluctance to help him plan this big party, whereas I really didn't feel like it was my business try and dissuade him, but I definitely wanted to. Then, since his gf was busy with the kids and not into organizing this rave, he started lambasting her as the worst partner ever, saying she didn't really care about him, and then expanding that to comment on her CHARACTER, saying all these things that just weren't true. I don't think for a second that an IEI would put up with that shit. If his girlfriend had been EII, she might have let him say it and then left, feeling that there was no common perception to grab onto, to save the rapidly sinking ship.
As for them triggering my Se-polr, this doesn't usually happen that much because SLEs tend to be very positive. Whereas SEEs tend to get annoyed when I offer my services and then don't know exactly what I'm doing, SLEs just seem glad that I'm willing to pitch in, figure it out and help them. Though I could see how it could turn sour if they had strict, unrealistic expectations of me going in and I failed to meet those, but this can happen even with LSEs.
I think what you're describing is more accurate for Fi-EIIs. The way Ne-EIIs call for Te is generally by complaining about how everything is being done shittily, which hopefully spurs an LSE into stepping in and imposing order on their "disorderly" co-workers or teammates while optimizing everything. I think this would piss an SLE off just as much, though, like, "Why can't you just have the balls to confront everybody about what you want?" Or, "Why can't you organize everything yourself? Are you too lazy to enforce your own changes?" I guess it depends on the SLE, though. I actually have more ILEs call me out on this than SLEs. I think some SLEs are just glad something is being done in the first place, sometimes. Like "well this bitch doesn't know what she's doing but at least she told that ESE to stop being lazy af :lol:"Quote:
Originally Posted by Kill4Me
Eta: I don't think most Se-leads would approve of my lifestyle, which is pretty much the same day-to-day and includes reading books, writing, lazing around on the internet and chatting with people, and going to work. Sorry, but I don't need to have bad sex and then go to a hockey game to feel pumped and stuff.
:) they notice that I don't manage my time and activities efficiently and step in to say "today do x and plan on doing that tomorrow" organize actions. Most LSE in my life take over all activities around me and do them. I become the queen of the home. Oh but I'm extremely diligent and responsible worker. If stuff goes to chaos around me because of other people who are not doing their job then LSE step in to manage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Emmym
I hate being criticized Emmym. I hate it so much and it makes me pressured into anger leaving.
I'm not great at organizing actions either, but I think my anxiety makes it look like I am. I'm usually too anxious/impatient about things to leave them sit, and if I do leave them sit, it's because I've already decided not to do them or I have a later date I'm planning to do them on. If I find out that someone's putting something off, my instinct is to goad them into doing it before it's too late. That might be Ni-demonstrative.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maritsa
It's interesting how that works because I agree with you. When it comes to managing other people's time I do it well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Emmym
I just had and activities reminder for my bf that's coming up due and I sent a text saying"don't forget that you need to order x" :)
how does it feel like for both parties?
:popcorn:
The way that I experience it, I just find out sooner later when I meet them that there are little idiosyncrasies of ours that I know will make it difficult to make things work between us long term in a deep relationship of any sort. At first I inevitably always feel really charmed and it feels very promising, and sometimes I do get along with some of them well for a long time when things are kept superficial/distant enough. Sometimes I feel a lot of hope about being able to make it work and us becoming good friends, but I let go of it again eventually. The letting go of expectations happens when I make the realization about the personality idiosyncrasies having enough influence to create any potential for friction. It turns into indifference and returns to square one where there's a sort of mild distant pleasantness and vague fascination or admiration (I tend to feel this more towards female EIIs I've noticed) or more or less total indifference with some sense that I should avoid them (usually more towards EII males, though with some exceptions). I can like them as a person, it's just that I know things won't work between us. The distance keeping is almost exclusively to do with it being a practical issue for me. I'm skittish towards the idea of a lack of ease or lack of full mutual understanding during communication.
Once in a while things have gotten bad with a couple of them I've known, but by and large it's been like the above with most of my interactions with EIIs.
SLE --> feels judged and not responded to, their default forceful systematic efforts in whatever it is are futile which is frustrating.
EII --> feels attacked by SLE's natural energy, their values + ideas aren't being accepted/needed, no comfort for them is available.
The demo functions can change this a bit but I left them out so far. I mean they can meet halfway with EII's sense of time "background noise" (that's how I call the demonstrative) and SLE's business logic but it's not inherent to them.
Whoa. This is it, everything in a nutshell. How did you know?Quote:
Originally Posted by Chae
I dated an EII for two years actually. But summarizing it and wording it in an easy to understand way like this wasn't inherent to me lol ... and "background noise" with demonstrative, totally agree with that idea.
If I had to add anything I would say the differences in P vs. J temperament were noticeable and difficult. But that was implied already in what you said about the energy and response differences.
I'm a fortune teller, at least according to my ladies @Wyrd and @Pink. :lol: Just kidding, that's all ethics. I'm glad it helped you understand your relationship. And that played out for two years! That's just absolutely incredible.Quote:
Originally Posted by niffer
The background noise for SLE, I thought about that in reverse. I think it's a sense of knowing how to get something done that EII can appreciate, but :Se: on top makes it too aggressive for them. And :Ti: covers the demonstrative so logic prevails over implementation knowledge.Quote:
Originally Posted by niffer
Very true, that's an important thing to mention as well. :thumbsup: How did you experience your interplay on the level of the PoLR?
It was exactly the way you described it. Nothing I say could really add more to it, other than I think the different values and perhaps slightly mismatched dimensionalities (for e.g. my Se is built to handle the Ip intermittent unconscious Se of IEI, not the complete polr near-absence of Se from EII, and it moreover being released in an Ij format), exacerbated difficulties and misunderstandings and then eventually a lack of common ground which was a blessing in disguise because upon realizing I was such a different person from him all along in a fundamentally problematic way made it like nothing to let go. I'd rather not get into too much detail about things actually on a very public forum such as this one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chae
Yeah, misunderstanding and difference sums up conflictor relationships fairly well. You don't have to, the OP's aim is already met. :yup:Quote:
Originally Posted by niffer
I respect healthy SLEs a lot, as I greatly admire ambition, and I appreciate awareness of the efficacy/necessity of social strategizing to accomplish one's goals. I can appreciate them from afar, but interacting with them is difficult. I don't feel like they can see any of my strengths at all/any value in me, so they are pretty dismissive of me, and it bums me out. I've never been close to one, so I'm not 100% sure that the examples I'm thinking of are SLEs. But I think they are SLEs based on the interactions henceforth described, as well as the types of people I know who actually liked them (mostly ILIs/LSIs).
Anyway, I usually don't have strong feelings (either positive or negative) toward anyone except people I'm really close to, but two people stick out as exceptions in my memory. The nature of why I feel so negatively toward them suggests to me that they are SLE, but feel free to state your opinion otherwise. (Keep in mind I'm not saying all SLEs would do these things; just that these conflicts seem more likely to have happened between an EII and an SLE than an EII and another type.)
Phew! That ranting was pretty cathartic. I hadn't expressed these grievances before. I hope that was useful/interesting to read, or at least not a waste of time or offensive. I liked these people at first and would've liked to be friends with them, but they seemed to disdain me and repeatedly showed it, so I couldn't keep trying to be their friend while having an ounce of self-respect.
To balance out the negativity a bit, a lot of people think Emma Stone and Whitney Cummings are SLE, and I like both of them a lot. But again, I just like them from afar--I don't know if we would get along in person. I really think SLEs are badasses and valuable to the world, but I cannot seem to close the psychological distance between us.
SLEs are kinda like aliens.
Aliens that drive cars and fly their ships, so we obviously inhabit the same universe. But they think really, really differently, and they like blue goop for breakfast and enjoy really unexpected things.
Aliens are cool and do cool things. Sometimes I wish I could do some of the things they do. But if I want snuggles and understanding, my dog is a better option.
SLE being interviewed by an EII - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4qi5sP48OE
Penis.
Being put off by their comments points to your insecurities. Conflict relations are not the worst; it's just that the gulf seems more obvious then say mirrors. What you should be asking yourself is: "Despite everything, can this person be helpful?" If not, steer clear. If yes, then look to yourself as the problem source. I have found that ESTps tend to try to overwhelm but if people don't seem impressed, they do dismount from their chargers; they usually mean well but they often behave like raucous soldiers on leave.......:content:
a.k.a. I/O
@Rebelondeck, which relations do you think are the worst?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebelondeck
This differs greatly from Socionics: From worst to the best of the worst: mirror, quasi-iden, benefit, supervision and conflicting. I put conflicting ahead of supervision though they score the same because it's more of a two-way relationship. Activity and identical aren't anything to write home about either...:content:Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Strange
a.k.a. I/O
My father is SLE and my mother is EII and they are clear evidence that conflicting relationships are really bad. My father steers out of the house all the time working in basement and eating in restaurants and comes to home when my mother already sleeps. He wakes up before her and this way they don't see each other. When my dad comes home to the toilet and jokes about something this escalates in fully fledged war and none of them can stop it. Any single word from my mum can trigger my dad that he will start arguing and this also escalates into war. My mum has depression because of it and has diagnosed "exhaustion of defence mechanisms".
On the other hand, I have normal relationships with my mum and it is not conflicting at all and never was. There are worse and better asymmetrical relationships. ILE and EII have Ne so it the communication is normal and there is no tension.
How dare you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Number 9 large
@falsehope I wonder how your mother would interact and communicate with another ILE, who wasn't her child, and how both would feel in a co-dependent, long-term relationship. Often parents don't express their true opinions of their children, especially not to their children....:content:
a.k.a. I/O
Okay like 99% either one of the ppl in ur relations is actually mistypedQuote:
Originally Posted by Rebelondeck
I wrote the following article and others because my observations seemed to diverge from Socionics but mistyping is a real possibility. In the article, I also didn't spell Maslow correctly.....:content:Quote:
Originally Posted by Number 9 large
http://www.socionics.com/articles/thestrength.html
a.k.a. I/O
I suppose there are factors that makes a huge difference. ESI's that I have typed as dominant subtypes tend to be totally out of whack with me. It would not even happen. Huge mental tension between us. While they may enjoy efficiency improvements that I might tell them but I might tell them stuff using indirect references which makes them totally insane (ambiguity) and I can't stand their pressure and I need to go somewhere quiet to recharge.
ISFjs have been known to isolate their partners as a way of showing their displeasure; their weapon of choice seems to be robbing their opponents of strength, vigor, or spirit - sometimes playing the sympathy card or martyring themselves. In order to neutralize such tendencies, partners need to be able to understand the objectives and communicate their understandings, and big egos would be assets as well - these tactics usually don't work on a self-confident people who don't mind going it alone for a while.:content:Quote:
Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007
a.k.a. I/O
So, I have noted in a way. It is just totally not effective as I have hard time to believe that this "I leave you alone" system actually exist. I'm totally indifferent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebelondeck
What was said relates to E-9, which should be often base Fi. Not specific to EII only.Quote:
Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007
E-9 are easily offenced and stop communications. But if they value the relations - they may tolerate you much on the surface - they'll show nothing or you'll notice only slight cold [while inside they may to have serious hurt - it's just stays covered]. This will not be like a lot of small quarrel where you can do maneurs, to have time to understand clearly what happens and how to deal with this. It will be "all ok", but the negative accumulated and then "big boom" after which you'll need a lot efforts to return the relations to norma. This is why you'll try adopt to them as much as possibly with the compassion, tenderness and caution. To avoid "big booms" and to being able to control them by the sympathy you inspire in them. As the more sympathy you are getting - the more conformism will be shown to you to tolerate more from you.
E-9 are very touchy and emotionally tender people, but this is not clear on the surface. They look as phlegmatic and easily forgiving. This makes you blind to what happens and if you'll pass some border - you get serious troubles. It's not just small and temporary troubles - you get the largest troubles which may to exist [including the break] and you get them rather suddenly.
So if you value good relations - you'll do the best of you to reduce this risk. It's better to be overcautious and do as much good as you can, than then to try glue together the relations from almost zero, where you get the cold, indifference, roughness, etc. and do not understand how to return the relations on stable good way. To get temporary success will be not enough - you easily will stick in up-down series, where the relations may return to same zero not a single time and to level up them on better stable level will need huge efforts.
It's very bad idea to control E-9 from negative side like blaming. It's more reasonably to establish the sympathy with them - and they'll agree with you by their natural high conformism.
@Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @SolQuote:
Originally Posted by Sol
and you still type me as IEE :P Anyways, this ESI specific stuff makes me to shut it down. I don't want to deal with that kind of people in general [at least long term]. I don't want to serve pseudo-sensitive and pseudo-martyr complex having pseudo-princesses who can still handle real stuff and pressure people.
EII stuff – I can certainly see astronomically much more value in it. It is much less egocentric to me. Anyways, it is just that they correct aka supervise when things get too logical for them.
@Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol @Sol
@Troll Nr 007
all is ok. the potential "not emotional" activator :)
Advice for EII: Just ignore SLEs. Your best weapon is to not acknowledge them, do not react indignantly and try to shame them because that will only make the situation worse.
Advice for SLE: EIIs are stuck up and annoying a lot of time. Go find someone to hit on who isn't.
Updated link to EII interviewing SLE:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5-dn0-BGXY
I've been friends with three SLEs now and my friendship has gone the same way every time. First, they ignore me and I think they are really cool: they occupy space confidently, everyone wants to be around them, fun seems to follow them around, they have lots of cool stories etc. (read: all the things a socially awkward EII lacks). Then if they are in my circle its usually because we have similar interests and at some point I'll make an observation about a common interest that will pique the SLE's interest. Following this is a weird period where they take me under their wing and say things like "wow, Lucy is actually cool!" and for a brief time will invite me to parties and make an effort to hang out with me. This is very short lived and ends with me thinking they're dicks and generally exhausting to be around. I decide that actually I don't want to be cool like them and they decide their first impression was actually right and I'm really boring (to them, anyway haha).
In terms on conflict, only one of those three really butted heads with me. Though I think some (if not all of it) was her maturity levels. Like if something went wrong (i.e. we once got lost when on a group holiday together) she would loudly complain and blame every one else. She usually ends up bossing people (me) around (and bullying them [me], imo). But more generally I just find Se so tiring to be around. I want a three day nap after hanging with an Se-ego and at least a time-out after being with Ni-ego betas and gammas.
No SLE has ever told me that. And every SLE I’ve ever worked with loves that I take initiative and am hard workingQuote:
Originally Posted by Kill4Me
When I was in London with my SLE friend we had just one key to the flat and she gave it to me to hold on to as we spend the evening in two different places. She asked me to be back by 10 leaving all time management responsibilities to me. I went to see my family which was an hour and a half ride away and when it was time to return my LSE cousin kept wanting to keep me and couldn’t understand why I had to return so early. He kept delaying my time to return because he missed me and I felt the stress of time but I also wanted more time with my family. When I got back. To the flat she had been waiting for a full hour and a half for me. She grilled me on every step I took every train ride I took to get back and why I was late wanting to find out if I was lying. I was already really upset that she left that key to me, put that responsibility on me when I hadn’t seen my family and I was obviously spending time with them and now she was grilling me about every step. I felt as though my dual would have had a better plan and not let me stress out like this. She did then understand that I needed to be with family like three months after lol but you know she didn’t do Te well and I didn’t do Ni well.
I have a good friend who is ESTp and probably for enneagram reasons things are peaceful between us. But we tried to work on a project together and that is where I could easily see how we have very complementary strengths but for some reason could not help each other.
Part of it is the IEs and part was the rationality and irrationality.
When we worked together it was like he could never take no for an answer. because when ever I got even close to saying no he would get a little more defensive each time, I sensed that and just backed off since I'm Se PoLR I felt like I couldn't put up much of a fight, but I also felt like I couldn't be honest and this made me less committed to the project we were working on, it felt like I wasn't really involved, only half of me, the half that didn't make him defensive.
The problem was whenever he came up with ideas for a project my Ne could see all kinds of things that could go wrong and I would troubleshoot all the problems out loud with him like "Ok well what if this doesn't work, or what if this happens? If we do this, this is probably gonna happens do what do we do about that" And I could tell he hated that, but instead of saying "Well we could do this instead." he would just try and give me some answer to shut me up and stop making it seem like whatever idea he had wasn't gonna work, he took it as opposition instead of criticism.
He also learned by doing and action and not hypothetical troubleshooting like how I did. When he came up with an idea , when I would think of all the potential problems and how to fix them beforehand he needed to put it out in the open and see what actually happens. There were times where he would even come back and say I was right but it was hard for me to understand why he couldn't see the same problems I saw beforehand, this was frustrating for both of us. To him it seemed like I was stopping him at every step and to me it seemed like he wasn't fullproofing his ideas.
I also remember when we wanted to make a kickstarter page for our project and we both had 2 different approaches to that as well. I had the perfectionist approach where we had to have everything perfect before we made a page, and he had the rush to the finish line approach where he wanted to make a page within days with the least amount of things needed. Again he felt like I was 2 slow and I felt like he rushed way to much. He even said "I need the momentum in order to do this." like he needed a short term big goal in order to do it because if not it wasn't gonna get done.
With the rational/irrational issues they were pretty literal to those terms. We were making a project with a certain theme, all the ideas I had were things within in that theme, while he felt like we could just toss anything that was trending/hot or just inspired him in the project regardless if it was according to the theme or not , which made my head spin.
For ex: if we were making a baking company, one where you bake cakes, I would come up with ideas about frosting flavors, different kinds of cakes, catering. He would see figdit spinners selling like hot cakes and say "We have to sell those in the bakery." and we also have to sell video games because parents have kids, and we also have to sell rotisserie chicken because I read in an article that's booming, and also vegan, everything has to be vegan because vegans are on the rise!
Next thing you know we not making a bakery, we're making Walmart.
If I tried to argue "what does any of this have to do with a bakery, or cake?" He would just say "It doesn't matter, we can do whatever we want."
And the store would be decorated with a deer head on the wall, a basketball hoop and comic book posters, instead of idk cake stuff lol. And he likes it that way. The randomness. The "doesn't make sense"ness of it all. That's like his element or something.
So we differed there. Sometimes I was too rigid too on theme to the point of redundancy, and sometimes he was too loose everywhere all over the place, random. He felt like I was limiting his ideas too much and I felt like he kept getting distracted with shiny objects and kept being inconsistent.
Where we had complementary strengths was:
He had a hard time coming up with a working interesting consistent idea, but he was real resourceful gathering all these advanced tools to make things with and he also was real good with reaching out to the community to get people/press interested for projects, getting involved in local events and things, which I sucked at but totally needed. I was always couped up in my cave working on some idea but never got out to tell people and never found tools to shortcut the process, but I would dedicate hours/days/weeks just to come up with a working presentable idea, which he needed to take advantage of all the tools and attention he was able to get. So if we could have just worked together well those strengths would have complemented each other but welp our processes made us get in each other's way.
Also I did notice he needs some kind of yes man or blind submission. There was one time in one of our brainstorm sessions he brought and EIE around and that guy was his biggest cheerleader, when I felt the urge to question the ESTp friend's ideas to point out why it's not gonna work the way he thinks it is and what is he gonna do about the glaring potential problems, the EIE would beat me to the punch and say "YES! THAT'S GENIUS BRO! YOU GOTTA DO IT!" and with my ESTp friend I could literally see the confidence in him light up like he started believing in himself more or something, I realized he actually needed that, but I couldn't give it to him because well I just couldn't get on board with an idea I saw all kinds of potential problems with. I guess he needed that Fe boost, and I couldn't fake it for him. When he did hear me out it felt like the wind was taken out of his sails, like the door to the direction he was getting geared up to go in just closed on him.
Another ex: He had the idea to sell tee shirts with people's country flags on them (like a shirt with an italian flag, or puerto rican flag), he wanted to sell the shirts at a local gas station, he was excited because he asked the owner and the owner gave him the ok to sell in his store. He came to me excited and ready to get started on this and the first question that came to mind for me was "Why are people gonna buy clothes at a gas station?" , "The person has to be from the country or really like the country to be interested in buying." "How are people gonna find this place? Are you gonna advertise, or do you just expect them to randomly stumble in and buy a shirt?". Then I suggested "It might work if you do it at the time of the World Cup, that's when people wear their country's shirts, or whatever country they root for." And he felt like I took the wind out of his sales because he thought that was a good point but saw that the World Cup was no time soon.
Still good friends but when trying to be productive we just worked against eachother.