Differences between mirror types SLI-ISTp and LSE-ESTj

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Originally Posted by Diana

Could somebody (Rocky, other ISTps) give a run-down of the major differences between ISTp and ESTj? What are the major give-aways that someone is one type or the other? Thanks a bunch!

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My opinion may not be very valuable anymore...but I give it a try :)

ISTp
- Live and let live attitude
- Doesn't like to interfere with other people's business and doesn't like them to interfere with his/her business
- Enigmatic, often silently observing
- Only show Fe in rare bursts of anger ("icemen"/"icewomen")
- Can show Ni (have imagination)
- Have original sense of humor which sometimes surfaces
- Often relaxed clothing and possibly hair-style
- Can be sensitive to criticism
- Clear passive and active moments (activity in "bursts")
- Can be slow to make decisions
- Likes to work on their own pace usually alone
- Usually dislike hierarchies
- Usually feels responsible only for himself/herself

Summary: Gives introverted, sometimes aesthetic, relaxed, sporty, enigmatic impression. Usually gives same relaxed impression at work and during leisure.

ESTj
- Judging attitude
- Likes to interfere with other people's business. May demand things to be done his/her way
- Forceful/controlling (more so at work). Not necessarily loud person though.
- Can show positive Fe especially during leisure activities
- Never show Ni (very factual and no-nonsense)
- Humor? What is that? :D Well I do know ESTj who has sense of humor but it only surfaces when he is very relaxed
- Often conservative style clothing and hair-style
- Often not sensitive to criticism (more likely just bluntly ignores it)
- Pretty much always active
- Very fast to make decisions
- Likes to work all the time usually with other people (which they may call "pawns" :D)
- Usually like hierarchies and aim to the top of the pyramid
- Feels enormous responsibility for family, work, everything. Sometimes have illusion that nothing works if they are not there to make it work.

Summary: Gives more or less extroverted, official, conservative, opinionated, self-confident impression. Leisure personality can be considerably more relaxed than work personality. I have to add that I know an ESTj who can sometimes go very silent and introverted. I'm not sure what causes this though. But for example in work meetings when his superiors are around he can be surprisingly submittal. I guess it is the hierarchy and respect thing. He can submit to his superiors and expects same kind of submittal from his inferiors. ISTps never submit this way. (Edit: I have to add he doesn't really submit just that he may not openly argue with them but just keeps silent.)

I did what I could and tried to keep it short :) Subtypes may have effect.

... I keep a notebook, so here it is...

:Si: :Te:

Goes from being self-controlled most of the time to turning reactionary and aggresive. Sharp tounge. Little emotional warmth. Believer in facts. Observer. Molds surroundings to fit them. Assigns personal quality to every thing/person. Skeptical about people talking about them. Pessimesitc about the future. Chooses words carefully. Concentrated on perticular tasks. Can spend long exhausting hours perfecting something/practicing. Personal space. Thinks that fake emotions are silly. Private about what they believe in. Gives the impression that they are always thinking about something. Can say offensive things by accident if provoked. Sensitive if others aren't welcoming of their outward expression. Interior morals and good actions are important, though these are not shown. Tend to damp enthusiam but pick up energy level when things get too low. If they are around suspecious people, they start to look exhuasted with a dissatisfied look on their face. It says, "You are all making me crazy."


:Te: :Si:

Very anti-metaphysical bullshit. Criticizes people who try and over-analyze what has been said. Hates people who are too picky with precise definitions. Skeptical of reflective thinking. Don't want to be asked to explain their thought process. Verbally aggresive if people don't understand what they are saying right away. Sarcastic and straight forward. Call people "stupid", and plays the "bullshit" card a lot. May be quiet but still active. Readily forces opinions onto others. Expects people to follow their all-too-perfect and definitive logic. Unrestrained in actions/movements. Sometimes lets time pass by. Supportative and sportsman-like in team activities. Can forget things they had to do. Can offend people with their humor. Hands-on teacher. Oddly rigid movements.

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Originally Posted by Diana

He doesn't use sarcasm, and even seems somewhat uncomfortable when other people do. He's patient and takes the time to explain if someone doesn't understand right away. He's also slow to criticize, and doesn't easily resort to name-calling and all that. His humor isn't offensive either.

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People often see every other type has ill tendencies they wouldn't like to have. Don't care seriously.

In my opinion all these descriptions are highly stereotypical and often times just plain wrong. It it better to think of the types in terms of the functions, for example, people with :Ne: Ne as hidden agenda and :Fi: Fi as dualseeking etc. are ESTJs. Once you learn to see the types this way typing becomes much easier. Much of the analysis will inevitably be pretty hard to verbalize though so at this stage I am not of much use...

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Originally Posted by Diana

Thank you both!! Based on what you've both said, someone I thought was ESTj may possibly be ISTp. But the work thing -- well, he's gotta be ESTj after all. Ugh, this is confusing. He's definitely one of those 2 types -- probably ESTj, most of XOX's description seemed to fit, but these things in Rocky's description don't:

"Criticizes people who try and over-analyze what has been said. Hates people who are too picky with precise definitions. Verbally aggresive if people don't understand what they are saying right away. Sarcastic. Call people "stupid", and plays the "bullshit" card a lot. Can offend people with their humor."

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There are probably differences between ESTjs. This definition makes them sound really aggressive. I would say this is like the worst case scenario. In work situation when they want things to be done they can be like this. If you are having a grill party with them they are more likely to come out as soft, caring, even funny people. And they are usually quite fair because of the strong Te. They don't play dirty tricks.

Ok...I'm boldly trying to demonstrate difference with pics...I may not have typed these people correctly but anyways this is how the differences might manifest.

ESTj when serious:
http://www.chydenius.fi/chydenius/ku...s/lipponen.jpg

ISTp when serious:
http://spanish.autoblog.com/images/2005/10/kimi.jpg

ESTj relaxed:
http://www.paavolipponen.org/images/paavo1.jpg

ISTp relaxed:
http://www.szaguldocirkusz.hu/galeri...bah_kimi04.jpg

The point is to see how the ESTj is almost always focused extrovertedly directing his negative and positive behavior towards other people while the ISTp is focused inwardly even when showing positive emotions.

Now don't kill me if these are not ESTj and ISTp representatives. Try to focus on whether these pics could help see the difference between image ESTj/ISTp project. Also this gives general impression how their clothes and hair style might differ (more official / less official). Now ESTj with Si subtype and ISTp with Te subtype could be harder to tell apart.

In my opinion Paavo Lipponen, whom you typed as ESTJ, is actually ISTJ.
Maybe someone with more experience with visual identification could google some pictures of him...

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Originally Posted by CuriousSoul

In my opinion Paavo Lipponen, whom you typed as ESTJ, is actually ISTJ.
Maybe someone with more experience with visual identification could google some pictures of him...

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Well as I said don't get stuck on the correctness of VI. Instead say if you think this might be how ISTp and ESTj impressions differentiate :) And actually I was expecting more criticism on Kimi than on Paavo. Some people in the chat thought he might not be ISTp. Anyways I stick with the ESTj/ISTp for now :)

How about...this guy. Not sure but might be ESTj. Or another ISTj? Hard to find smiling pics...



http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/128500..._ollila150.jpg
http://pic.enorth.com.cn/0/01/44/61/1446157_975866.jpg
http://www.manager-magazin.de/img/0,1020,373694,00.jpg
http://ascii24.com/news/i/mrkt/artic...ages610271.jpg

Here they are both:
http://www.lums.lancs.ac.uk/images/3...20Lipponen.jpg

Kimi certainly could be an ISTP. His behavior could fit that type and ISTPs often have a set of skills that makes them well suitable as Formula One drivers. It is just that I am personally much more familiar with our former prime minister than with Kimi Räikkönen.

My typing of Lipponen is also largely based on his resemblance to people I know personally. There is for example none of the inner tension often characteristic of ESTJs. In my opinion many of his public statements also seem to bear witness to Ni as hidden agenda. In my opinion his writing style fits ISTJ type better than ESTJ, but this is still highly speculative. Conclusive proof is, of course, rarely available.

By the way, it is nice to have other Finns writing here. I shall put up a post on the types of Finnish celebrities, mainly politicians who happen to intrude on our TV screens on daily basis. Maybe we actually agree on the types of some people. :wink:

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Originally Posted by XoX

How about...this guy. Not sure but might be ESTj. Or another ISTj? Hard to find smiling pics...

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I think now you are on the right track. The former CEO of Nokia, Jorma Ollila, is in my opinion either ESTJ or ESFJ. I know ESFJ sounds strange, but about a year ago I watched a lengthy interview of him - and well - just my subjective impression. I have been wrong before.

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Originally Posted by CuriousSoul

By the way, it is nice to have other Finns writing here. I shall put up a post on the types of Finnish celebrities, mainly politicians who happen to intrude on our TV screens on daily basis. Maybe we actually agree on the types of some people. :wink:

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Hehe lol. That would be nice. So..are you just thinking of doing it or are you actually going to swing that Se :P

Anyways I have always somehow seen Lipponen as more ESTj and Vanhanen as more ISTj but this is mostly based on VI. I haven't focused too closely what they were actually saying just how they said it, lol.

[quote="XoX"]

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Originally Posted by Diana

The point is to see how the ESTj is almost always focused extrovertedly directing his negative and positive behavior towards other people while the ISTp is focused inwardly even when showing positive emotions.

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dont take this personally, but it is descriptions like this that make me say WTF? it is a picture. you cannot tell if the person is focused on something or immersed in their own thought. does no one else see the possibility that we are looking for evidence to fit into our existing thoughts? one person is smiling, the other is not. what influence does that have on "observation"?

and i have seen krauss argue that if you took a group of people from a prestigious university(or wherever it was assumed that smart people are) those people would have all sorts of types, not just NT. and yet, socionicists look at biographical data when typing people, like where they worked, and what they did in life.

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Originally Posted by Mariano Rajoy

dont take this personally, but it is descriptions like this that make me say WTF? it is a picture. you cannot tell if the person is focused on something or immersed in their own thought.

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I can tell by the look in their eyes. Räikkonen looked... well, like XoX said. As if he were partly absorbed in his own inner world. The other guy looked straight out at you. Plus, he was either SCOWLING or GRINNING, very in-your-face and out-in-the-open, while Räikkonen looked either serious or pleased - again, as if his attention were partially absorbed by something else going on inside of him.

But perhaps different people have different ways of reading faces.

All the ESTj descriptions sound slightly pissed off. Or is that just me?

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Originally Posted by schrödinger's cat

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Originally Posted by Mariano Rajoy

dont take this personally, but it is descriptions like this that make me say WTF? it is a picture. you cannot tell if the person is focused on something or immersed in their own thought.

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I can tell by the look in their eyes. Räikkonen looked... well, like XoX said. As if he were partly absorbed in his own inner world. The other guy looked straight out at you. Plus, he was either SCOWLING or GRINNING, very in-your-face and out-in-the-open, while Räikkonen looked either serious or pleased - again, as if his attention were partially absorbed by something else going on inside of him.

But perhaps different people have different ways of reading faces.

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is there a methodology to reading faces? or do you fit your observation into what you think you know?

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Originally Posted by schrödinger's cat

All the ESTj descriptions sound slightly pissed off. Or is that just me?

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I know an ESTj that scares the hell out me sometimes, he was never pissed off at me though. I still admired him though for his good qualities though.

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is there a methodology to reading faces?

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A methodology? Good question. There must be, or I wouldn't be able to do it. The problem is that it is not a conscious and sequential process; nothing like learning how to use Excel or drive a car. It's more like how children acquire languages: you're always exposed to faces, so over time you learn to "read" them; some of the most basic skills are instinctive (recognizing the basic emotions), and then over time it all builds up and becomes more complex... but it's still a holistic and unconscious learning process, and nevertheless one that is about "real" facts in the real world. (I'm adding this because I suspect that saying "it's holistic and unconscious" sounds a bit aery-fairy.)

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or do you fit your observation into what you think you know?

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Do you mean if I saw all that because I was told that one was ISTp and the other ESTj? No*. The difference was one I saw immediately and found very clear.

*Obviously, all of us are always influenced by what we think we know, and what we think we see is usually not what is there... but that is only the sort of white noise that accompanies all our efforts, and not what you were getting at, I think.

what do you mean by white noise?

A background noise, like the sound of a fan - something you hear but tend to ignore because it's there all the time.

You can *so* look at this picture

http://spanish.autoblog.com/images/2005/10/kimi.jpg

and tell he's ISTp. That is the EXACT look my husband makes when he's deep in thought where I'm worried that he might be angry at me. And he says, "No I'm not angry, I'm just wondering how I'm going to fit the headers on the engine of my car" or something. I did a double take when I saw that. LOL

The idea of VI seems unlikely to me as far as nose shape or something like that, but as far as expressions go I can see it.[/img]

i should post my pic. i look like that guy. then we could argue about my type.

My husband doesn't look anything like him at all except that he has that exact same expression when he's deep in thought.

But sure, post your picture :)

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Originally Posted by schrödinger's cat

I can tell by the look in their eyes. Räikkonen looked... well, like XoX said. As if he were partly absorbed in his own inner world. The other guy looked straight out at you. Plus, he was either SCOWLING or GRINNING, very in-your-face and out-in-the-open, while Räikkonen looked either serious or pleased - again, as if his attention were partially absorbed by something else going on inside of him.

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Exactly :D But thinking what CS said I can't right now think of a good way to visualize ISTj and ESTj differences. Anyways, it should be "relatively" easy to see difference between ISTp and the xSTj types.

Oh and I was today visiting an ex-ESTj workmate. I didn't remember how anti-aggressive he really is. He is usually quite positive, very calm, very focused on the conversation and polite and relatively silent. Occasionally he throws out some rough humor and there are certain things that can piss him off in which case he can raise his voice and sound aggressive and judging but it will pass quickly. Well he is absolutely sure of being ESTj and in these cases it is really hard to convince him otherwise so I believe him :)

Oh..and I think one difference between ESFj and ESTj usage of Si is focus on aesthetical/functional aspects. My ESFj wife is very concerned how to decorate home and where everything should be but is more focused on aesthetics than functionality. This ESTj guy is similar except he is very focused on functionality. Everything should be where is the most functional place for them to be. The environment around his computer and monitor are perfectly optimized so that everything is exactly where it should be so that you can work smoothly and without interruptions. Same thing with desktop. My wife is partly-functional but mostly aesthetical about the desktop looks. This ESTj guy has the folders and everything perfectly ordered for efficiency and convenience of usage. This is not just a male/female difference is it?

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Originally Posted by XoX

Hehe lol. That would be nice. So..are you just thinking of doing it or are you actually going to swing that Se :P

Anyways I have always somehow seen Lipponen as more ESTj and Vanhanen as more ISTj but this is mostly based on VI. I haven't focused too closely what they were actually saying just how they said it, lol.

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Actually, I am not so sure anymore... Going by visual identification alone I am starting to think Lipponen might be ESFP, his wife Paivi, looks very much like ENTJ. Jorma Ollila again could be ISTJ, and Vanhanen has always given me an INTP impression. This is my opinion, as of today, until I decide otherwise. It does get confusing - and frankly rather frustrating - when there is no way to check the correct answers. I feel just too uncertain and hesitant to go typing any celebrities at the moment. :oops:

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Originally Posted by CuriousSoul

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Originally Posted by XoX

Hehe lol. That would be nice. So..are you just thinking of doing it or are you actually going to swing that Se :P

Anyways I have always somehow seen Lipponen as more ESTj and Vanhanen as more ISTj but this is mostly based on VI. I haven't focused too closely what they were actually saying just how they said it, lol.

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Actually, I am not so sure anymore... Going by visual identification alone I am starting to think Lipponen might be ESFP, his wife Paivi, looks very much like ENTJ. Jorma Ollila again could be ISTJ, and Vanhanen has always given me an INTP impression. This is my opinion, as of today, until I decide otherwise. It does get confusing - and frankly rather frustrating - when there is no way to check the correct answers. I feel just too uncertain and hesitant to go typing any celebrities at the moment. :oops:

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Heh. It is ok :) It is nice to hear your opinions whenever you want to give them :) I have been wrong so many times lately that (even though I'm not hesitant to give my opinions :lol:) I'm starting to doubt them :P

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Originally Posted by schrödinger's cat

All the ESTj descriptions sound slightly pissed off. Or is that just me?

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That's because we are, I tend to get pissed off mainly with lack of production.

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Originally Posted by Light_Keeper

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Originally Posted by schrödinger's cat

All the ESTj descriptions sound slightly pissed off. Or is that just me?

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That's because we are, I tend to get pissed off mainly with lack of production.

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Woohoo! I hope you stay as ESTj. There have been some but they "changed" their type or left :) So you are probably the only one now. Welcome. Pissed off or not :)

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Originally Posted by Kraus

Yeah, he definately sounds like an ESTj. :o

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Does he sound...too much like an ESTj? :o I hope he is real :)

I wasn't aware that ESTJ's were so uncommon in the world. I'm assuming this deals with the forum itself or the internet, since I happen to know a few ESTJ acquaintances.

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Originally Posted by Light_Keeper

I wasn't are that ESTJ's were so uncommon in the world. I'm assuming this deals with the forum itself or the internet, since I happen to have a few ESTJ acquaintances.

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There is a serious lack of ESTjs and ESFjs in these kind of boards. I guess they are not that much into discussing these kind of things and like to busy themselves with real world work or hobbies. My wife is ESFj and she is always busy with work or hobbies :) She does read some forums and stuff but very rarely is actively involved in them.

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Originally Posted by Light_Keeper

I wasn't aware that ESTJ's were so uncommon in the world. I'm assuming this deals with the forum itself or the internet, since I happen to know a few ESTJ acquaintances.

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They are NOT uncommon!!! :o :shock: :lol: They're all over the place, except online.

Hey... you should start a VI thread. I like to think I'm good at VIing ESTjs and it would be interesting to see what you look like.

Hello,

I know it's not supposed to be that difficult in telling the differences between an ISTp or ESTj. But, I am still finding it a challenge to figure out someone's type after going through so many Delta threads, the Reinin dichotomies and temperament topics. It is usually not hard for me to decide whether someone is an ISTp or ESTj but not this one. So I'm looking forward to some useful pointers.

I'll describe this person.

He came off as proud and unfriendly when I first saw him. But it didn't take long for me to notice that he's actually a genial, considerate and helpful person. He's erudite, has an opinion on everything and generally a well-rounded individual (sports, excels at work, spirituality).

Very gentle in speech. Modest and polite yet a bit arrogant at the same time :?. Patient in explaining things. Will start talking to you when both of you are alone. Gives the impression of being guarded but still wants to get to know people. Not at all that shy in initiating contacts or making small-talk. Likes to find out information about people but does not want people to figure out his motive for doing so (will ask something else to mask it). Curious to hear people's opinion of him yet is afraid of being seen through. This is painfully obvious to me...

He walks quite fast and his movements are a little jerky.

This is all I can think about for now.

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Originally Posted by stefana

Very gentle in speech. Modest and polite yet a bit arrogant at the same time :?. Patient in explaining things. Will start talking to you when both of you are alone. Gives the impression of being guarded but still wants to get to know people. Not at all that shy in initiating contacts or making small-talk. Likes to find out information about people but does not want people to figure out his motive for doing so (will ask something else to mask it). Curious to hear people's opinion of him yet is afraid of being seen through. This is painfully obvious to me...

He walks quite fast and his movements are a little jerky.

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I got a small vibe towards ESTj i highlighted a few things that made me think this. Still not sure though i know an ISTp whos pretty damn chilled out.

Your right though, it shouldn't be too hard to differentiate between the two

^ Let me just call him a split-ego type for now :lol:.

His snobbishness or what looked like it left a not so good impression on me the first time. I thought that he disliked me. Anyway to cut a long story short, I remembered loathing the entire journey back home in his car, wishing for the trip to end as soon as possible so that I don't have to be 'trapped' with this person forever. He tried making a conversation to which I responded half-heartedly (yes.. yes.. I know I was a bitch). However, another meeting with him at a gathering changed my opinion. That's when I got to see more sides of his personality.

I have the same problem. However, I found it easier to type ESTjs as ESTjs. And had a major problem typing my boyfriend. :lol: who's most likely ISTp. :?

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His snobbishness or what looked like it left a not so good impression on me the first time. I thought that he disliked me. Anyway to cut a long story short, I remembered loathing the entire journey back home in his car, wishing for the trip to end as soon as possible so that I don't have to be 'trapped' with this person forever. He tried making a conversation to which I responded half-heartedly (yes.. yes.. I know I was a bitch). However, another meeting with him at a gathering changed my opinion. That's when I got to see more sides of his personality.

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I had the same impression of my boyfriend when I just got to know him. He seemed arrogant and cold. That impression changed over time when he started talking to me more.

I always thought he was ESTj though, because he too is not shy when initiating contacts or making small-talk, it's just that he doesn't reveal himself much.

I'm leaning toward ISTp for your friend. :D

A rather clear INTp-Te

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Originally Posted by FDG

A rather clear INTp-Te

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Ooo.. Yea. I think that's very possible.
However, I think the description didn't tell enough.

Thank you all : ). I had a talk with someone who knew him better and after hearing more details about him, I think that ESTj sensory sub-type is most likely.

@FDG: I know several INTps closely and this guy's behaviour and the way he carries himself is different from them.

@Mea: ESTjs have a sort of lustre or glaze in their eyes that becomes more apparent when they are talking to someone. I haven't... noticed that in ISTps yet. Oh well :).

An INFj dude said to me about 1hr ago "I get the clear impression ESTj" doesn't really like me. Then he said, Its strange though he just said he really liked me comming out tonight and last night"

I just said yeah even i sometimes wonder what he thinks but ESTj's can appear cold i have noticed.

He keeps on ringing me to go out so either he genuinely likes me or he hasn't found anyone better :D

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Originally Posted by stefana

@Mea: ESTjs have a sort of lustre or glaze in their eyes that becomes more apparent when they are talking to someone. I haven't... noticed that in ISTps yet. Oh well :).

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Hmm, that's an interesting observation. Now that you mentioned it, I think that's true...

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Originally Posted by Mea

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Originally Posted by stefana

@Mea: ESTjs have a sort of lustre or glaze in their eyes that becomes more apparent when they are talking to someone. I haven't... noticed that in ISTps yet. Oh well :).

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Hmm, that's an interesting observation. Now that you mentioned it, I think that's true...

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I have noticed this too. They also rock side to side, moving forward, while keeping their gaze steady.

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Originally Posted by thehotelambush

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Originally Posted by Mea

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Originally Posted by stefana

@Mea: ESTjs have a sort of lustre or glaze in their eyes that becomes more apparent when they are talking to someone. I haven't... noticed that in ISTps yet. Oh well :).

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Hmm, that's an interesting observation. Now that you mentioned it, I think that's true...

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I have noticed this too. They also rock side to side, moving forward, while keeping their gaze steady.

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If that's the case, I haven't met an ESTj IRL yet. :?

ISTj.

ESTj logical subtype or perhaps ENTj.

Arguments --

You usually wouldn't describe an IP, above all an ISTp, as having "jerky movements".

As meatburger also noted, he seems to feel the need to take the initiative in establishing contact, but is at the same time a bit awkward even if at the same time "not at all shy". This sounds more like an EJ with Fe role than IXTp with Fe PoLR.

However, this:

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Originally Posted by stefana

Likes to find out information about people but does not want people to figure out his motive for doing so (will ask something else to mask it). Curious to hear people's opinion of him yet is afraid of being seen through. This is painfully obvious to me...

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If you mean that he's afraid of showing obvious interest in a woman, that would speak a bit against Si EJ and for ESTj logical subtype or ENTj.

Something else --

For what is worth, that is an extremely accurate description of myself, except with regard to excelling at sports and spirituality (which again tips it towards ESTj).

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Originally Posted by Expat

If you mean that he's afraid of showing obvious interest in a woman, that would speak a bit against Si EJ and for ESTj logical subtype or ENTj.

Something else --

For what is worth, that is an extremely accurate description of myself, except with regard to excelling at sports and spirituality (which again tips it towards ESTj).

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Yes, that's what I mean :). He is quite conservative when it comes to romantic relationships due to his religion so it shows in the way he interacts with women. Not the "keep them away from me!" kind but "I am treating you as a man would towards a lady, not a piece of meat".

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Originally Posted by mikemex

ISTj.

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I doubt it. His mom is one and they are really different from each other.

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Originally Posted by stefana

He is quite conservative when it comes to romantic relationships due to his religion so it shows in the way he interacts with women. Not the "keep them away from me!" kind but "I am treating you as a man would towards a lady, not a piece of meat".

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That's not necessarily due to religion, certainly it isn't in my case.

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Originally Posted by Expat

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Originally Posted by stefana

He is quite conservative when it comes to romantic relationships due to his religion so it shows in the way he interacts with women. Not the "keep them away from me!" kind but "I am treating you as a man would towards a lady, not a piece of meat".

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That's not necessarily due to religion, certainly it isn't in my case.

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I'm quite aware of that. But, I will observe him again to look out for more signs.

My friend since fourth grade is a definite ESTJ. There were times I wanted to kick the shit out of him. He could be so loud, bossy, and stubborn. He was also a real creep when you owed him money, no matter how small the amount. One time he lent me $1 for food when we were kids and he hounded me for it for like a year. But at the same time, he is a really loyal friend who won't turn his back on you or anything like that. Whenever we went on road trips up and down the coast he was the one who always made sure that we had enough supplies and stuff like that. He the kind of friend you have for life. So I guess you have to just take the bad with the good.

What are some fine lines between these two delta types?

ESTj's are sheep.

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Originally Posted by LokiVanguard

ESTj's are sheep.

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not exactly. LSEs are only sheep at every fourth increment of the j-constant over time. at other times they're ducks.


SLIs are pencil sharpeners.

I think stereotypical temperament differences show themselves in this pair more than most, for sure. LSEs are usually busy bodies who are always perfecting something or starting some new project; SLIs tend to be layabouts, or at least have a noticeable easy-goingness to them. Now obviously subtypes tend to blur this line a bit, but IMO the differences are usually still pretty obvious. Definitely moreso than in, say, LIE/ILI.

aside: [spoil:e6576f1e6a]

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We have! I know your always in a rush! I have been good. How have you been? I see you have been appointed student senator. Congratulations!!

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LSEs are usually busy bodies who are always perfecting something or starting some new project

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:P[/spoil:e6576f1e6a]

I cant even work a pencil, let alone sharpen one.

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Originally Posted by Courage

aside: [spoil:6ab9281e50]

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We have! I know your always in a rush! I have been good. How have you been? I see you have been appointed student senator. Congratulations!!

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LSEs are usually busy bodies who are always perfecting something or starting some new project

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:P[/spoil:6ab9281e50]

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[spoil:6ab9281e50]Why do you feel the need to "prove" this to me? My opinion won't be changed in any way by one irrelevant coincidince.[/spoil:6ab9281e50]

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Originally Posted by Gilly

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Originally Posted by Courage

aside: [spoil:7966cc13ed]

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We have! I know your always in a rush! I have been good. How have you been? I see you have been appointed student senator. Congratulations!!

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LSEs are usually busy bodies who are always perfecting something or starting some new project

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:P[/spoil:7966cc13ed]

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[spoil:7966cc13ed]Why do you feel the need to "prove" this to me? My opinion won't be changed in any way by one irrelevant coincidince.[/spoil:7966cc13ed]

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[spoil:7966cc13ed]it smells like sex in here[/spoil:7966cc13ed]

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Originally Posted by Gilly

Why do you feel the need to "prove" this to me? My opinion won't be changed in any way by one irrelevant coincidence.

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It's not a coincidence, it's what a girl who knows me at college said about me.
And you said "I will never see you as LSE", so bite the bullet that comes along with your claim.

ISTps own hammocks, ESTjs get daily planners for Christmas, but never use them.

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Originally Posted by Bionicgoat

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Originally Posted by Gilly

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Originally Posted by Courage

aside: [spoil:10e79fb2e9]

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We have! I know your always in a rush! I have been good. How have you been? I see you have been appointed student senator. Congratulations!!

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LSEs are usually busy bodies who are always perfecting something or starting some new project

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:P[/spoil:10e79fb2e9]

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[spoil:10e79fb2e9]Why do you feel the need to "prove" this to me? My opinion won't be changed in any way by one irrelevant coincidince.[/spoil:10e79fb2e9]

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[spoil:10e79fb2e9]it smells like sex in here[/spoil:10e79fb2e9]

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[spoil:10e79fb2e9]It smells like you mum in here. Oh wait, it is. (Running joke.)[/spoil:10e79fb2e9]

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Originally Posted by force my hand

ISTps own hammocks, ESTjs get daily planners for Christmas, but never use them.

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I'm surprised. I would've thought LSEs would use that kind of thing. That reminds me of me. I get that kind of thing, but I never use it.

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Originally Posted by Bionicgoat

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Originally Posted by Gilly

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Originally Posted by Courage

aside: [spoil:c2e7c23ba6]

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We have! I know your always in a rush! I have been good. How have you been? I see you have been appointed student senator. Congratulations!!

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LSEs are usually busy bodies who are always perfecting something or starting some new project

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:P[/spoil:c2e7c23ba6]

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[spoil:c2e7c23ba6]Why do you feel the need to "prove" this to me? My opinion won't be changed in any way by one irrelevant coincidince.[/spoil:c2e7c23ba6]

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[spoil:c2e7c23ba6]it smells like sex in here[/spoil:c2e7c23ba6]

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[spoil:c2e7c23ba6]it smells like teen spirit[/spoil:c2e7c23ba6]

Hm, I use day planners, out of necessity. And yes I do get them for presents :)


If I didn't have a planner or some form of organization there would be no way to do all that I do.

if I come NEAR a day planner I instantly rip it up. They are like the most worthless pieces of equipment I could ever own.

A hammock, however, i'd use everyday. I have 2 :D But I live in an apartment, so I can drill a hole in the wall for a spike to hang it with, and our tress here are too far apart. :(

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Originally Posted by Courage

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Originally Posted by Gilly

Why do you feel the need to "prove" this to me? My opinion won't be changed in any way by one irrelevant coincidence.

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It's not a coincidence, it's what a girl who knows me at college said about me.
And you said "I will never see you as LSE", so bite the bullet that comes along with your claim.

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It IS a coincidence that someone happened to say something about you that coincides with something I said about LSEs. At least, to me it is, because I don't see much LSE about you at all. I grew up with an LSE, and you have absolutely nothing in common with her besides the fact that you just make shit up sometimes. There is no bullet, you little twerp, because nothing I've seen says to me that LSE is even a reasonable guess at your type.

You just called me a "little twerp" :lol:

Gilly, you trying to act "mature" doesn't work, mate.

If it bothers you that I persist on being LSE despite your lack of alternatives, so be it.
If you really want to make a claim for my type, stop bitching around and do it, otherwise you're just appeasing yourself, somehow. I don't even understand what benefit you are deriving from acting this way, or why you have such a negative disposition about this matter.


You almost make it seem like you've been wounded or attacked.
I am curious as to the reason for your disposition

I've been in a very good and fulfilling relationship for almost half a year and I still cannot decide what my boyfriend's type is. I believe he might be LSE Si subtype or SLI Te subtype if that makes any sense. Can you tell me how to differentiate between these two types? I know a few LSE Te and he's quite different, but the same applies to SLI i know.

if it has been a good and fulfilling relationship for almost half a year ,what makes you want to pinpoint his exact type? do you want to manipulate him properly like the bitch he is? yeah we will help you with that.hopefully,you don't have oh-so-noble,innocent and boring delta NF reasons .duuuuuh!

so,tell us what has your Ne picked on this person that points towards his polr and DS (i hope you can tell how each one demonstrates ,since I don't.just yet.)Try not to block your Ne observations with Fi,so that they can be delivered as objectively as possible.

Making a thread about him in "whats my type" should work better than asking questions about a man we dont even know to begin with.

which of these pictures does he most resemble?

http://gallery.socionix.com/d/55052-13/male+Si-ESTj.jpg
http://gallery.socionix.com/d/55636-15/male+Te-ISTp.jpg

I quess he's probably ESTj. He appreciates Fi, which is very flattering to me :). He also seems to enjoy Ne. I don't know. My gut feeling tells me he's ESTj. And I want to find out his real type out of curiosity and maybe because I'm still afraid a little bit.
His polr...it might be Ni as he loves planning and he cannot estimate time well. But hi very emotionally inexpressive as well, sometimes Ithink it's a big drawback in this relationship. He's warm but he doesn'y pay me compliments etc,

He's quite competitive, very sporty and he's definitely an achiever. He loves fulfilling his goals. On the other hand, he's not that rigid when it comes to timetables. He changes his mind as to what time we leave very often.
He always enjoyed skipping classes at school.

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Originally Posted by Pauluch

I quess he's probably ESTj. He appreciates Fi, which is very flattering to me :). He also seems to enjoy Ne. I don't know. My gut feeling tells me he's ESTj. And I want to find out his real type out of curiosity and maybe because I'm still afraid a little bit.
His polr...it might be Ni as he loves planning and he cannot estimate time well. But hi very emotionally inexpressive as well, sometimes Ithink it's a big drawback in this relationship. He's warm but he doesn'y pay me compliments etc,

He's quite competitive, very sporty and he's definitely an achiever. He loves fulfilling his goals. On the other hand, he's not that rigid when it comes to timetables. He changes his mind as to what time we leave very often.
He always enjoyed skipping classes at school.

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I guess the easiest thing to decide between the two is to determine whether he's introtim or extratim.

But i guess i also sort of agree with timewu (not so harshly though). If you are already together and things are going well, I recommend just being comfortable with knowing he's a delta ST (which is obvious from the way he treats you so you dont even really need to know he's delta ST at this point). SLI vs LSE doesn't really matter at this point imo. I think the determination is more crucial when one is trying to initiate a relationship, to sort of gauge how much initiating from your end he would be comfortable with for example, but since that's already accomplished, the point is moot.

LSE are constently engaged with objects, they are always doing things, whether watching, reading, cooking, talking, etc; they don't take reflection time like SLI do. SLI might listen to music and fantasize, hang around the house and do karate moves; an LSE will listen to music and write.

You can try matching him by temperament. ISTp would display propensities of IP temperament and ESTj of EJ.

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Originally Posted by siuntal

You can try matching him by temperament. ISTp would display propensities of IP temperament and ESTj of EJ.

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^^This post^^
Any answer to a "what's the difference between" thread could easily be to shoot off the dichotomies that the types are opposite on. Drawing out a list of secondary personality characteristics only complicates the matter. So in the case of LSE vs SLI, that would be E/I, j/p, pretty much every Reinin dichotomy, and cognitive style.

Another way of differentiating is by means of the mobilizing function. For that to work, it is important that your BF indeed utilizes his mobilizing function a lot, if he doesn't, this isn't a good method.

Your starting point could be the Pathetic Hidden Agenda article written by Expat:

LSE: (Ne)behavior aiming at showing how original and creative you can be, but making too much out of obvious and trivial ideas.
SLI: (Fi) unshakeable and stubborn unwillingness to compromise on personal behavior and principles against all opposition in a social situation

To put it diffently: SLIs are more prone to make an issue out of their own ideas of what's appropriate behavior or not, whereas LSEs are much more comfortable toeing the line. LSEs will at times fish for recognition of their creative or inventive capabilities (in the Ne sense), that they actually don't have, whereas SLI are more confortable with the idea that they are lacking in such respect (if they are aware of it at all).

ETA: it might actually be that these behaviors do not emerge in conditions of dualization. So you might not see it until your BF interacts with third parties.

Thank you for all your replies. It helped me a lot to determine my boyfriend's type. Of course his type doesn't make any difference to me :):). I'm pretty confident he's ESTj Si now. Probably it works well because he provides me with a lot of Si stuff and I provide him with Fi as these are our subtypes (if that makes any sense).
To Martisa: A few months ago you promised to type me :). Is my type confirmed by you right now?
All of the things you guys wrote were really interesting. I quess there are some fields of socionics I need to learn, which is great news for me. BTW I wish you all Happy, Happy,Happy New Year !:)

How do we VI?:)

he seems very prtoective of you, and you seem to enjoy that.

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Originally Posted by Pauluch

Thank you for all your replies. It helped me a lot to determine my boyfriend's type. Of course his type doesn't make any difference to me :):). I'm pretty confident he's ESTj Si now. Probably it works well because he provides me with a lot of Si stuff and I provide him with Fi as these are our subtypes (if that makes any sense).

To Martisa: A few months ago you promised to type me :). Is my type confirmed by you right now?
All of the things you guys wrote were really interesting. I quess there are some fields of socionics I need to learn, which is great news for me. BTW I wish you all Happy, Happy,Happy New Year !:)

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you dont have to think of reasons why an IEE-LSE relationship would work well. Activity is a GREAT relationship, much easier to start than duality, and a very attractive and nice dynamic. I know that when i'm with an LSE (even platonically) we find each other so interesting that we talk and talk and talk. I am very fond of them and there are some LSEs i would most certainly consider dating. Sometimes i wonder whether i should bother with duality at all, as my activity partners are so awesome! My point is that duality isn't the ONLY successful intertype for relationships. In fact, duality IME so far has been somewhat unattainable.

Thank you :* :) Everybody is a bit afraid sometimes ... I'm usually afraid haha:) I quess I must be 6 in enneagram. We'll see how my relationship develops. I have close girlfriends both ISTp Te and ESTj Te, I get on better with the previous one. My boyfriend is much calmer and relaxed and mellow I'd say than my ESTj friend. Anyway, that's the best relationship I've ever been with so that might be the reason why I'm afraid.

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Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon

Sometimes i wonder whether i should bother with duality at all, as my activity partners are so awesome! My point is that duality isn't the ONLY successful intertype for relationships. In fact, duality IME so far has been somewhat unattainable.

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I quess maybe you're a strong Fi subtype. For me it's the same, ISTp Si is just not what I'm looking for, as if they are too soft or something. In my case subtypes play a significant role and I quess the same might apply to you. Anyway, I also agree with you that types aren't that important but it's much easier to buid a relationship with somebody who has the same values. Workaholics Anon I wish you a lot of happy love in New Year :):)):)

Your boyfriend looks ridiculously similar to a Si-LSE friend of mine!

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Originally Posted by Pauluch

I quess maybe you're a strong Fi subtype. For me it's the same, ISTp Si is just not what I'm looking for, as if they are too soft or something. In my case subtypes play a significant role and I quess the same might apply to you. Anyway, I also agree with you that types aren't that important but it's much easier to buid a relationship with somebody who has the same values. Workaholics Anon I wish you a lot of happy love in New Year :):)):)

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Aww thanks Pauluch!! Your wish is so nice to hear after being let down by another dual who chose a supervisor instead... :( (it's the 2nd time that's happened).

You could be right, actually, about me being a strong Fi-sub... so far the three SLIs i've gotten interested in have all been Te-subtypes, and sometimes i wonder if i might be EII actually. Though Ep seems to suit me really REALLY well. So, maybe you have a point there...

wrt to your two delta ST girlfriends... you might get along better with one than the other because of NTR factors too... just to put it out there...

Your boyfriend looks LSE>>> SLI.. You look like you could be either IEE or EII, but I'll go with IEE based on your posts

:) I also think I'm ENFp. Many people have typed me ISFp, though :).

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Originally Posted by Maritsa33

That isn't good because you can have both an SLI and an LSE creative person and won't be able to tell them apart.

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Did you really take you that long to come up with a response that demonstrates you have understood ABSOLUTELY NOTHING of what I wrote?

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Originally Posted by consentingadult

Did you really take you that long to come up with a response that demonstrates you have understood ABSOLUTELY NOTHING of what I wrote?

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Yes, every word of it and several times. What you're not getting from what I wrote is that in any given situation neither type will voice either aspects of themselves. An LSE doesn't show up at the scene and say "I'm trying to create this and that." You can't tell them apart by this. They gather stuff/ideas they like and try to use it and hence wanting to seem like they are creative, but they don't say that to you when you meet them. Every creative individual will be or try to be creative. If you're in a room with a bunch of creative types, whether that's writers or artists and one is LSE, you won't be able to tell which one. They all talk about the same thing, which is their art.

:) He plays basketball in his own team, but he supports Polish football team Legia - from Warsaw. He's a great fan and he attends every match.

What else does he do other than attend basketball games? Does he talk about his emotions or how certain people and things got him upset. Infantile and "archaic" Fi emotions due to insufficient expression and repression fire back in ways like moodiness but with extraverts, they are directed towards specific things that happened on which they will voice or talk about.

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Originally Posted by Maritsa33

What else does he do other than attend basketball games? Does he talk about his emotions or how certain people and things got him upset. Infantile and "archaic" Fi emotions due to insufficient expression and repression fire back in ways like moodiness but with extraverts, they are directed towards specific things that happened on which they will voice or talk about.

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He works in marketing department in a corporation. He loves sailing, watching films, sleeping. He's not emotionally expressive, he doesn't pay me compliments. He talks about things that made him angry, he describes the situation and gets rather emotional at the time. I have problems with talking about things that made me feel bad, I rather avoid it.

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Originally Posted by Pauluch

He works in marketing department in a corporation. He loves sailing, watching films, sleeping. He's not emotionally expressive, he doesn't pay me compliments. He talks about things that made him angry, he describes the situation and gets rather emotional at the time. I have problems with talking about things that made me feel bad, I rather avoid it.

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Sounds like ESTp

Actually he's similar to the ESTp boyfriend I had in high school. But he has all the good traits and none of the bad :). Most of his friends are delta and so is he. He definitely appreciates both Fi and Ne.

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Originally Posted by Maritsa33

Yes, every word of it and several times. What you're not getting from what I wrote is that in any given situation neither type will voice either aspects of themselves. An LSE doesn't show up at the scene and say "I'm trying to create this and that." You can't tell them apart by this. That trying to be creative aspect about LSE is just a mechanism of extraversion without any reflective abilities. They gather stuff/ideas they like and try to use it and hence wanting to seem like they are creative, but they don't say that to you when you meet them. Every creative individual will be or try to be creative. If you're in a room with a bunch of creative types, whether that's writers or artists and one is LSE, you won't be able to tell which one. They all talk about the same thing, which is their art.

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Again you demonstrate you have understood nothing of what I have said. I'm putting you on ignore, I've seen enough of your stupidity.

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Originally Posted by Pauluch

Actually he's similar to the ESTp boyfriend I had in high school. But he has all the good traits and none of the bad :). Most of his friends are delta and so is he. He definitely appreciates both Fi and Ne.

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Certain traits are environmental, such aspects are learned; we are after-all influenced by our external circumstances; take an SLE who is super clean and neat, that may be because his/her parents were strict and exacting of this activity and the person has developed this task; and, yet another SLE who's parent's baby'd them and they are dirty. Etc.

What do you mean appreciates Fi and Ne. What do you mean by those functions?

LSE are regimented with their time; their major "worry"/fear is that they won't get to do something by a certain time, yet they have terrible time management; SLI have a good feel for Ni and aren't as rushed, sensitive, neurotic with that function.

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Originally Posted by consentingadult

Again you demonstrate you have understood nothing of what I have said. I'm putting you on ignore, I've seen enough of your stupidity.

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Do whatever you want.

I mean I get on really well with my boyfriend. We have no problems with communication whereas with the ESTp it was more like "hate-love" relationship. I was never sure of him, I felt he was impossible for me to achieve and at the same time he was getting on my nerves so much. He was trying to be romantic in a way I perceived really shallow,not needed and a bit stupid. My BF isn't romantic at all, maybe in the inside - yes. He sticks to his values. He appreciates sensitivity. He's very protective. He loves comfort. He's very careful with what he eats and he wants to feed me "You look as if you are hungry. Eat something", it seems to me he's in touch with his body. He has a great sense of humour. Sometimes he gets tense and I think he's angry with me just by looking at his face. But when I ask him he smiles and he says he's not. It has happened a few times.
I definitely think we have the same values. So what do you think is my type Martisa ?

You can ask him what he thinks of the story of a disabled man abusing a dog and give us his response and I'll type him

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Originally Posted by consentingadult

Again you demonstrate you have understood nothing of what I have said. I'm putting you on ignore, I've seen enough of your stupidity.

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You sure do sound like each other :)

He's just an introvert, Absurd. He has a concept in his mind and probably is very sure about how well it works in the external sense, in his head but due to lack of objective relation, he can't see that it doesn't work in usage in real life.

See I'm empathizing. :p