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According to Reinin dichotomies, IEEs are negativist. But it seems to me that IEEs are stereotypically cheery and optimistic, so there's quite a bit of discretion here. To the IEEs here: do you see yourself as more pessimistic?
I personally have always been a pessimist. It's just more natural for me todenote the bad aspects of things than emphasize the good ones. Do other IEEs feel the same way?
Negativism =/= pessimism. A negativist can be pessimistic or optimistic, and vice versa for a positivist. I see what you mean about emphasizing the bad aspects of things, but does that mean you're a pessimist/negative person overall? [That isn't sarcasm; I'm really asking.] I think maybe that does fit in w negativism in socionics terms since you are focusing on what is lacking/what still needs improvement... I do this to an extent too, but I am far from a pessimist. Anyway....Quote:
Originally Posted by Arctures
Here is the wikisocion description of negativists:
1. More inclined to solve problems in systems of things and processes.
2. "This glass is half-empty", "We need $62,000 for that project"
3. Usually more reprimanding than complimenting.
4. Socially and intellectually more mistrusting.
5. Explains what things are not (irrationals) or should not be (rationals).
I think people get the idea that negativism means pessimism from that second example in particular [and of course the root "negative," heh]. But that is not what is meant there imo. In example 2, the statement is "We need $62,000 for that project." It isn't that the negativist is being pessimistic [notice he didn't tack on, "... and we'll never get that much!"]; it's just that the negativist is focused on what is not there yet but is needed/wanted.
Ah, I think I see what you're getting at.
But even so, in those examples you posted lies "Socially an intellectually more mistrusting." That doesn't sound particularly IEE in my ears, since they are supposedly "people-persons."
I come across as optimistic and cheery, but am very negativist.
For instance, I will plan for what will/could go wrong. SLI often don't, because they expect a good outcome. I see both good and bad possibilities for things and can't ignore the bad.
Me "I better call the restaurants because otherwise they might give away that reservation."
SLI "I'm sure they'll have plenty of room for everyone."
Or
Me "That girl completely implied something bitchy when she said xyz."
SLI "Maybe you misunderstood her and she didn't mean anything bad."
I'm a negativist all the way, but despite my initial pessimism, I'm often surprised things don't suck as much as they possibly could, so end up being pretty happy.
My overall big picture view is very positive though.
yes, I find myself to be rather pessimistic. i look at the flaws, or how something could be better constantly. when i am with other people, i immediately see their flaws, which is why i am usually very picky about who i spend my time with...not that i think that i am better than them, i just can't stand to be around them because their flaws are so evident and grate on me so much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arctures
i can tell you why i didn't like a movie, why i hated the food, or why i do not like an organization....
but, when something/someone impresses me i can't help but be over-joyed and ecstatic about it.
1, 4, and 5, except w/ 1 i am more inclined to solve problems within structures that involve people. family conflicts that result from a failed system of communication, the positions w/in the family, and the way in which those people that are holding the positions are executing their roles. the same goes with friendships, teachers, employer, employees, and so on.Quote:
Originally Posted by SoapOfSapphire
4, yes, i have major trust issues, especially socially for some reason
I identify with that. Depending on the situation, I can take a while to talk to people. I usually have to be around someone for a while before I open up to them. If they seem to be inconsistent in their behavior towards people then I have trouble knowing where I fall in that continuum, which is a kind of mistrust. Even if I'm very friendly with someone, I don't adopt them wholly into my life until I've known them a while.
And while I enjoy learning about new ideas, etc, I'm slow to incorporate them into my life.
That's what I interpreted it to mean, at any rate.
I'm 100% sure of being IEE and the description of a negativist is pretty accurate in my case.
I thought negativism was just thinking of things in terms of what they are NOT. Which I have done before.
However, I also tend to motivate myself by thinking of the bad consequences if i dont do the required thing/task. For example, back when i used to take a lot of tests (college, grad school), I would study frantically not to get the best score, not to beat everyone, but to not fail. It was all or nothing. If i didn't study everything (which I often didn't get a chance to because of procrastination), I would go into the test feeling like I was going to fail.
They aren't affliced with the unwarranted confidence in their own cleverness the way ENTps and ESFps are. Instead, they are kind of unimposing and stable. That's what the negativism consists in.
Yeah, that is something I don't get either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arctures
I was reminded of this thread today when I re-read this:
SLIs, do you identify strongly w the "positivist" description? In particular I'm wondering whether SLIs consider themselves socially trusting....Quote:
Originally Posted by Description of SLI-IEE duality
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smilingeyes
Strong subtypes would be less negativist.
what do those numbers and lines meannnnnnnnnnnnn
Instant classicQuote:
Originally Posted by Maritsa33
Beside being Positivist they are also Introverted and Serious, both of which arguably are to be described in a way similar to Negativist, meaning they weaken the "positivism" of ISTps considerably. I don't generally expect ISTps to identify with Positivist for this reason.Quote:
SLIs, do you identify strongly w the "positivist" description?
I'm pretty negativist, but I tend to keep my most negative/pessimistic comments to myself, especially with people I don't know very well. This leads to the perception that I am very positive and optimistic, a perception I have no real interest in correcting.
btw is that you in your avatar? SEXY!!:thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by stanprollyright
:doh:Quote:
Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon
I'm pretty sure it's Guy Pierce from the movie Memento.Quote:
Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon
I wish.Quote:
Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAno
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by Lobo
This is a good example of why I hate those Renin dichotomies and why I think they aren't worth diddly.
The only way I see it in myself is that I often speak in the negative instead of the positive. Like, "That's not bad!" when I mean "That's really good!" Even "no problem" instead of "sure."
Oh yeah the other way I see the negativism in myself is, if I'm feeling nervous about something, or any sort of stress or pressure, to make myself feel better, I envision all the bad possibilities that could happen that I could think of. If the worst possible outcomes really aren't THAT terrible, the pressure will diffuse right then and there. If the bad outcomes ARE bad/terrifying/humiliating, I will compulsively try to make sure I'm extra prepared from those standpoints, so I can lessen the chances of them happening. Sometimes my preparation can't guarantee the latter, whether because it's just impossible (such as knowing everything about a subject for a test or random questions from an audience) or because I've procrastinated leaving me with inadequate time to prepare the way I would need to to feel calm. In such cases, I will be a nervous wreck going into the event.
If only, "don't worry, everything will be fine" worked on everyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon
:lol::lol: That helps too, especially if it comes from a dual.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclops
I saw this question being asked on MBTI forums, about the happy unhappy ENFPs :lol:
One poster brought up that this could be due to enneagram differences between ENFPs. That many ENFPs are type 7 and a few are 9s and 2s, the positive outlook types. These ENFPs seem optimistic and positive compared to ENFPs of other enneagram types like 5, 6, 3.
Actually yes. I feel like I always see the positive in things, and express it when people make statements to me like 'this weathers terrible', which you hear a lot in England, to which I normally reply 'depends what you make of it', or 'if it didn't rain you wouldn't value the sun'.Quote:
Originally Posted by ;619206
Another example would be a colleague telling me he wished he did something different. And I replied 'well, sometimes you have to do something wrong in order to learn how to do something right'.
As for socially trusting, perhaps, I'd need an example.
Yeah.
Negativist I thought meant you just see everything from the opposite. If something is said, you look at it from the opposite way. If someone says "it's a horrible day today" I'd think well it's not that bad look the clouds are kind of nice and there's shade. If they said "it's a beautiful day" I'd say well the clouds are covering the sun.
positivist would agree "I know! So beautiful!"
Is is that right?
This is the I diagnose negativism in IEEs. I consider IEE to be the most obviously negativistic type. Their speech is chock full of negativist constructions. You can get dizzy just counting the amount of times they say "not", "if it weren't..." "I wouldn't..." "It's not that I didn't think think you wouldn't..." etc. It can be kind of funny sometimes if you're looking for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slacker
I'm a very optimistic person but I am negativist to the bone.
male organ
According to the Ronan, IEEs are tactical (i.e. in relation to the short term, or of the moment) negativists predominantly, and perhaps therefore secondly they are strategic (i.e. in regards the long term) positivists. I think this perhaps represents the IEE mood quite well.
I find negativism in IEE's obvious to spot. For one thing I think people are often drawn to them, but they are good at using Fi to keep most people at a friendly yet "safe" distance? Maybe it's necessary when random strangers throw themselves at you lol. I see them more often using Fi to deflect people (while also being genuinely kind to them) rather than to draw them closer. Or they'll start a convo with you cuz they are bored and like people and stuff but you can still note a bit of wariness?
also I find that when IEE's describe people they (like me) tend to verbalize or hone in on negative traits or things that weird them out, even if they might not think negatively of the person overall.
and yes! speech filled with negativist constructions.
#takesanegativisttoseeanegativist
I'm a very optimistic person in that I am hopeful that things in the future will turn out well, however I'm negativistic in that I look at the negative aspects of how things are currently in order to improve things for the future. So in a sense, my negativism is fueled by my optimism and vice versa.
Hi everyone. I'm not precisely new here, but I haven't posted for a long while. I'm happy that this forum still exists. Wow.
I agree about the negativism. I write a lot, and you wouldn't believe how many times I've got to edit out negativist constructions - as if my characters don't see what's there, they first see what's missing. Needless to say, my first drafts are awful. A story is supposed to be about what's in the story, not about what's not in the story.
Yay, one of my favorite posters has returned! Welcome back schrodinger's cat! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by schrödinger's cat
This. I know Eliza is optimistic about my future and she tells me all the time that things will turn out well and prays for me.... but she's negativist is what she observed wasn't there. You gather this by the odd things you thin she would never pick up on. Positivist say what things you should be doing right .Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Ssmall
Idk, a story about what's not might be not a bad read actually.Quote:
Originally Posted by schrödinger's cat
For some types of writing, journalism and acadamic writing, i think the negativism isn't a bad thing, in some circumstances stating what's not sure, or what's less obvious is preferable above stating the obvious. Also, you can use double negation (as you did in your last post) to write what IS there so...
I challenge you to write a short story using mainly negatives and or double negatives and such to describe shit!! I'll even try and give you a place to start.
"It's not that he didn't know what to do, it wasn't even that he didn't know where to go, it was just, he wasn't sure he wouldn't be turned away. Mornings had that effect on him, leaving him dazed without sense of direction in life, feeling as if the pain was lacking, but in the full knowledge that that dazed bliss would soon be over and he'd have to fight to avoid making things worse...."
You're right, this is actually quite hard.
Raver, thanks for the welcome. It feels good to be here again.
Alright, I'll give it a shot...
"He stumbled to the bathroom and sighed at his reflection. It wasn't that he looked bad. He simply didn't look exactly like the guy that lived in his head, the guy he thought he would maybe become if it weren't for his damn laziness. If only he exercized and drove himself harder and learned how to do something vaguely Asian and self-reflective, something like yoga... only not so popular that even his own mother had heard of it, something a lot more arcane and mysterious... then maybe his face wouldn't be on the wrong side of the taut/flabby divide, his skin wouldn't be quite so sallow, and his eyes wouldn't be so sunken and tired. - Man, he hated mornings. Splashing cold water in his face, he told himself to quit being so unrealistic. LIfe was... well, it wasn't good, but it wasn't so very unbearable either. He simply just hadn't had his coffee yet."
Welcome back! :D :pompom:Quote:
Originally Posted by schrödinger's cat
Hi! Wow, you're still here, too? It's so good to see that quite a few people I know are still active. Your smiley makes me laugh.
Yay, it's @schrödinger's cat! :D
The quality of this forum just went (back?) up a little.
Thanks! It's SO good to be here. I lost my password, and just yesterday - BING! - remembered it again. Happy happy joy joy.
:) hello hello!
Hello to you too!
Well, I'd say that despite suggestions that "negativism isn't really about being pessimistic," I think on some level you're going to run into things like this:
Now trusting/nontrusting isn't the same as pessimism/optimism, but it's hard to say there's no relation between having a negative outlook on humanity and negativism, given this kind of assertion.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkAngelFireWolf69
As to pessimism proper, I think the one type portrait I always see this in is ILI.
Personally I find it a shallow interpretation of negativism to simply look at things like grammatical phrasing.
Overall I think the reason IEE is negativist and the reason it's result-orientation over process are related enough that you might as well understand both simultaneously in terms of how they think. It's a sense of not having looked into the entire potential of an object, a nagging one requiring one to consider the level to which one has underestimated it, in order to maximize the ethical valuations involved.
I would be doubtful that majority of IEE would resonate with the idea that human nature is evil.
To me this is related to the fact that you see something that is not there/missing, by default (and this in no way translate into being pessimistic). One example would be me challenging a person for not changing their life for the better, I would see faults in all of their excuses for not doing so.
But I'm not DarkAngelFireWolf69 (and I don't care).
True. I think negativity in IEEs might be why we see potential everywhere. We see a kind of platonic ideal of what things / people / places /situations might be, and we see the difference, and then we get all excited about all that potential for growth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Ssmall
This is an interesting discussion... I think of myself as an optimistic, positive person, but there tends to be a disparity between my self-image and what actually comes out of my mouth. My old supervisor even commented once about how I always expressed things in a negative way, but that he liked it and found it intriguing (he is ENTP).
More recently I noticed it when my Pastor and I worked on a project together and she pretty much corrected me every time I made a comment, until I was getting a complex about the way I expressed things! I think for some people (especially my Pastor), they assume I must be really depressed or complaining at my core, but the negativism doesn't get me down--instead it spurs me on to improve things. It's like you can't fix something if you can't see it's broken. Plus I see the humour in the dark side as well.
Same here. Once I've realized what's missing or broken or messed up, the next thought is always: "How could this be fixed?" It doesn't feel pessimistic to me, simply just realistic and down-to-earth and nicely grounded.Quote:
Originally Posted by Misty
If I'm in a situation where people insist that you only ever see the positive, I tend to feel like people are trying to brainwash me or expose me to propaganda. What's the word for these positive little messages you're supposed to give yourself? "I'm beautiful and powerful and every day I'm going to feel better and better"? URGH.
It occurs to me that this is very good for our SLI duals. Just imagine what would happen if IEEs favoured peppy Pollyannas who always see the good in every last little thing.
Haha, for me it's head-scratching, a sense of "How can you live like that??!" Followed by URGH. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by schrödinger's cat
I also find that I can't bring myself to trust people who don't openly acknowledge the bad and the broken. When it concerns someone's feelings I understand the need for tact but when it involves something impersonal like a project, people who are only capable of talking about the good make me wary.Quote:
Originally Posted by schrödinger's cat